Why High Stats Aren't Better | The Jingliu Theorem (Honkai Star Rail)

In any RPG, stats are everything. Base Power of abilities can be made incredibly weak by the sheer virtue of having low stats. In a vaccuum, having low stats means you are worse than a character that has a lot. But this is ignoring the multiple layers of complexity of why higher stats exist in the first place, to balance abilities. With the nature of powercreep, it brings another dimension of character balancing that a character that is good now due to stats, will be worse in the upcoming future due to said stats and vice versa of how stats can be the crux of a character's resurgence.
This is a video covering a repeated set of patterns ingrained in the laws of mathematics and game balancing overtime. In Star Rail, nobody is more notorious at this than Jingliu.
Join me as we take a journey through the characters that prove why high stats can be a blessing or a curse.
0:00 - What Is The Jingliu Theorem?
02:02 - When It's Done Well (Xueyi)
04:03 - When The Execution Is Off (Yanqing)
06:04 - Why It Affects The Future (Jingliu)
09:00 - Outro
#honkaistarrail #honkaistarrailguide #hsrguide

[@MrVoldross]

The beauty of HSR is in the fact that instead of power creep it has expanded options. Characters have the ability to become more or less useful with every update and game mode. Even Yan has benefitted from aventurine and the break meta made sushang more viable than before. I can see a moment where jingliu rises up the tier list again due to a new relic or something. Also, I've seen zero cycles with pretty much everyone, so let's not forget how much drop rng plays a factor😅

[@waveman047]

yes powercreep is real but a lot of it is done in a very clever way. they slow it down as much as possible, like jing yuan having ridiculously high scaling but lacking the supports so that down the line he isn't completely irrelevant but in the past he would be in line with other characters due to the lack of them.

[@elv6240]

"instead of powercreep" sure

[@Shay_D_Mann]

@@waveman047 I agree that powercreep in HSR is slow, but Jingyuan is totally useless now, especially if you have Acheron. Jingyuan is a special case of powercreep not only because Acheron makes him obsolete but also because of his innate mechanics - his Lighting Lord's slow dumbass is seriously holding him back. Lightning Lord is probably what made him obsolete more than Acheron's existence I'd argue. Other than that, I don't find other cases of extreme powercreep in HSR. Even Seele can 1 or 2 cycle off element late stage MoCs with a sustain, 0 cycle with no sustains. Perhaps Luocha? But then again, his free unlimited SP mechanic will always be timeless for casual players.

[@tuananhdang7385]

@@Shay_D_Mannsaying JY is totally useless is very stupid💀 He has a hard time 0 cycling, but he is nowhere near useless. I will say he only really needs either sparkle or robin with Tingyun to do damage

[@Shay_D_Mann]

@@tuananhdang7385 Hard time?! He almost can never 0 cycle because his Lightning Lord is so mechanically flawed. He’s weak to CC’s and has no way of advancing his LL faster. The dude needs help. Sure he can clear content, but everything he does, Acheron does better. That’s literally the definition of Power creep. So please. Spare me the fanboy bs.

[@AevyCh]

Then there's Blade with poor scaling & no buffers. He feels like a self sufficient Sub DPS rather than a Main DPS, which is what I think they intend him to work for the foreseeable future, especially with the release of Jade.

[@mexicock]

I really do hope that sometime in the future they make a hp-scaling based meta so he can become somewhat relevant again as a hypercarry since the thing I very much dislike about dual dps teams is the amount of resources and farming it requires

[@waveman047]

its more of a necessary evil atp since an hp scaler can quickly swerve out of control since they are already unkillable by virtue and an hp buffer turning that to offense is going to be really hard to pull off.

[@elijahjarobi]

@@waveman047 since all endgame content is on a timer being tanky wouldn't really be hard to balance

[@TheUnholyToast1]

​@@elijahjarobiyea exactly. Making a team of aventurine, fu xuan, huo huo and gepard isnt gonna clear endgame modes fast enough even if it woukd be unkillable basically. I dont think itd really be that hard to make some sort of hp to dmg buffer.

[@waveman047]

doesnt matter, if we assume this harmony is an hp buffer, then its going to be much more manageable to get hit thereby allowing 3 harmony + 1 destruction teams which is particularly really strong no matter what it will be in the future, doesnt even matter if the dps can scale off hp at that point. consolidating damage and sustain in one single slot is terrifying, thats why we have clara on a leash. like imagine if they made an abundance dps. it becomes a question of how much fragility you can get away with to boost dmg to an insanely high level, robin particularly threatens this.

[@Eclin]

I always thought it was unfair for Jingliu to have so many things going for her when she was released. Gigantic crit and attack buffs, no skill point usage, and good synergy with Bronya. But by the time Sparkle came along i realized that she invested in the wrong self buff stats lol. So many older characters benefits from Sparkle/Tobin like Clara and Seele, but Jingliu just doesn’t.

[@waveman047]

a lot of the advantages came with the lower scaling which, looking back, had a limited shelf life now with the context of all those buffers that made it less relevant

[@brycecai4700]

The major problem of jingliu isn’t her low damage scaling, but her 100 turn advancement, buffs on her wears off way too soon (unless you uses aura buffer such as ruan Mei or robin)

[@waveman047]

that isnt too big of a problem to play around since shes so fast it was bound to happen, same with others that do double turn bronya, even if she can hold buffs longer the problem is she already has so much stats it was always going to be less impactful than someone with a higher scaling. like you said, use robin and or ruan mei. it would genuinely be crack for nearly every unit to use both, but less so for jingliu and more extremely: xueyi.

[@siege_sensei]

There are other ways to increase damage like dropping def or resistance. Characters with already high stats like jingliu can benefit from a strong debuffer, it's just our only good one is pela.

[@TheUnholyToast1]

We got SW too which would help with making sure Jingliu can actually be viable against non ice weak enemies. Only issue is shes single target.​@@siege_sensei

[@miguellourenco8800]

@@siege_sensei even if she can benefit from def/res shedders so will every other character

[@hentikirby7142]

Or just more units like Jiaoqu who just have the buffs be on the enemy unit. (Debuff)

[@latecat2703]

Next : why speed is everything | The Seele Theorem

[@LustLord]

More like firefly theorem

[@orein1880]

Weirdly enough I think firefly would be a better pick for that

[@Internextion]

the support theorem

[@Yaoyue春]

​@@orein1880firefly goes 4x on 210 spd🔥

[@tuananhdang7385]

Basically any character with insane self buffs are doomed to fail because they are gonna be balanced out by lowering their base stats or multipliers which in result will affect their long run with future supports that buff insanely high, but because the of the lowered multipliers and stats they are gonna benefit much worse than someone who doesnt get any self buffs, but has good scalings on skills and base stat, meaning that they are ESPECIALLY stronger with future supports. Less self buffs=more room for future supports A lot of self buff=capped by their own buffs making it hard to break the limit I would say that good examples are JY and Clara(although Clara was good since day1) since they have pretty good scalings, but are bound to fall off without proper supports. JY imo aged really well. Having Robin or Sparkle boosts his damage by half, he benefits from them so much better than most units

[@waveman047]

not exactly doomed and all encompassing other characters, theres a lot of facets of characters including utility that are a lot more important if their numbers don't hold up.

[@tuananhdang7385]

@@waveman047 I feel like utility right now is not very well implanted. I don’t think characters with self buffs are automatically doomed. JL has an insane starter kit that easily gets buffed by practically any support, but I think in a long run she is gonna benefit less from supports. FF on her own is really bad and there are literally barely any support that work with her, but the ones that DO work buff her damage by half and even more. Its just better to have a dedicated support that boosts your potential to the roof instead of having multiple

[@smoltoaster]

​@@tuananhdang7385 Massive stat buffs work when its done in the right way/places. Xueyi is a perfect example of this like he showed, and if they released more quantum weak content Xueyi would be absolutely thriving in the meta. (theres only been like 1 quant weak moc12 in the past forever lol) She completely destroys any quantum weak content, I have a very well built Xueyi and can use her in both a normal Hypercarry team or Superbreak. Either team you pick, as long as it's quant weak she shits on it. She also will scale well with future supports because the way she benifits from stats makes her enjoy all of them heavily. She has a high cieling because even though her multipliers are low, her kit mechanics and ability to abuse all offensive stats very heavily make her benifit a lot from all types of buffs and optimized relics. Break effect and atk% rolls for example are very close to crit rolls in damage value for her, which is unique from basically any other dps.

[@TheWoodcookie]

Im just glad Jingliu is good since she is my favorite character. I do think it does not help Jingliu has no relic set that really fits her great outside RA.

[@camerongay5194]

Nice video. Now you've got me interested in the Jing Yuan theory lol

[@LeakyOrifices]

I can’t wait to run Jade, Blade AND Jingliu, the worlds first triple-DPS comp, it’ll be so bad, but I will be having a great time

[@sonyac.8205]

I support this lol maybe Lynx could be the sustain to put more attacks on Blade

[@bruh-mw3ni]

I mean there's another triple DPS comp rn besides them, which is kafka, black swan and acheron

[@skullthefan8914]

@@bruh-mw3ni nuh-uh BS is not a DPS, she's a DOT applier, which is 2 different things

[@janbiel1221]

​@@skullthefan8914My Black Swan at e0s1 is outdamaging all my other characters, including my Kafka e6 s2. She's a DPS and deals damage via DoTs. Maybe you forgot the part where she has a DoT with an above 400% multiplier, ignoring 40% def, increasing the damage taken by the enemy and having 72% dmg% for free

[@skullthefan8914]

@@janbiel1221 even if she does damage she's not considered a DPS its the same as HTB being able to hit 100k or gallagher doing the same, that doesnt make them dps even if they can do damahe

[@chifffy]

I think qq didn't make the list because while she does insanely buff both atk and dmg% which are highly common buffs and pays for it with scaling, she gets to use sparkle and fu xuan and eat their crit buffs which at the moment are pretty rare and hugely valuable for the crit starved qq. Also helps that erudition light cones very rarely have crit :(

[@waveman047]

qingque was *very* close to be added since she doesnt really have any more ways to get upgraded now that sparkle exists. but those advantages in stats are entirely luck based which is a separate issue altogether that she still gets benefits from dmg% if your luck is horrendous.

[@Kam1_9]

Erudition cones rarely have crit? Half of them (excluding 3*s) have some form of crit buffing though.

[@peterbabicki8252]

​@waveman047 there are still plenty of ways to buff QQ based on the amount of actions she takes, which is unique to her kit. It's why she's incredibly good in Propagation runs. Take any of those significant Propagation Blessings and design a support around them, and you have yourself another QQ support. There's room enough for Sparkle and another support in her teams.

[@AzureDrag0n1]

Those free crit stats are not a trivial thing to dismiss. It is very very hard to get both crit rate and crit damage and a free crit rate character can just invest into a crit damage body and crit damage weapon. Even if you roll very well on your crit rate substats you will still be well below overcapping on crit rate except on the most insane godly relic pieces that almost no one will ever see. Currently her best support is Bronya but she is not perfect for her because the buffs do not last. Not until E6 does Bronya become close to perfect because her dmg buffs do not last for all turns. Ruan Mei is her best second harmony team mate because of the dmg buff aura she provides.

[@AHAB-conscious]

Dude the video was very cool. Very critical. Hope your channel grows even more

[@orein1880]

Ngl the mention of the jingyuan theorem interest the hell out of me since his rep of being "mid" even though he arguably gets the most indirect buffs from anyone

[@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30]

personally, i wish everyone stopped talking about him. i enjoy playing him, he hasn't left my team for over a year but whenever i see people saying stuff, which sometimes are straight up lies, about him, it's annoying. that being said, i am 100% in the jy theorem waiting room.

[@khoinguyen4975]

@@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30Exactly, most of the time I just avoid anything with JY on social media beside his arts even if he's my fav because I just know the that the comments are gonna talk shit about him.

[@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30]

@@khoinguyen4975 it really is sad. hopefully they move on from him. it's been a year and i really don't want to continue like this...

[@orein1880]

​@@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30the unfortunate thing is it probably won't. It became too much of a meme that it transcends it to the point people genuinely think JY can't clear content (which is absolutely not true) in fact he's been my most consistent DPS on my account. Same as you guys I just get my content from art and or for gameplay stuff jingyuan Reddit because everywhere else is unbearably

[@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30]

@@orein1880 hard to enjoy characters with people breathing down your neck but jy is worth it, so we can enjoy alone ig.

[@peterbabicki8252]

They could introduce a character similar to Furina, but instead of an amount of HP drained, they buff based on whenever a character loses HP, and the amount of characters involved, as Blade, Jade, and Arlan only drain from one character, where as Jingliu drains from the entire party. That would be hyper specific, but it's a method. There could also be another character that gains stacks or buffs whenever they lose HP _(like Blade)_ and if they're Harmony or a sustain unit, we might see a come back of the Blade and Jingliu composition. Who knows. There are ways to buff her without buffing other units, it's just a matter of if they want to or not.

[@madrain9898]

you forgot the general of high stats, King Yuan.

[@iricalexis7508]

I think instead of stat/self buff, what char relevant into some mechanics is getting more value. this is why char like Kafka (who apply on DoT or FUA), Himeko (FUA, Break) etc has more development with more support that come out.

[@djseppy2941]

1st release i e6 her. the. rerun s5. don't care about meta. she maybe not the strongest but she is the prettiest both design and face.

[@Joe_Musashi]

Would you mind sharing your UID?

[@electrafying]

Jing Yuan theorem waiting room 👀

[@silvalgalewalker503]

I think Firefly would fall into is this Theorem. She's kinda 2.0 Jingliu, her case might be worse than Jingliu since Super Break has so little stats that boost it. Most built FF should have 500% BE, which is a lot but also way pass diminishing return. Plus, FF doesn't have the multiplier herself, it's HMC who provide the multiplier.

[@djampoucheukap1742]

Same, I also think such, because she buff her own stats herself, and sorry to the FF glazers but without Ruan mei, she is ass to play (I'm not joking, my E0 FF, as soon as I with draw ruan mei deals less dmg than my himeko in moc, that's saying something)

[@claudiowiseman8488]

no is not FF barely has dmg by her own the only thing that deal dmg is her trace and let's be honest is pretty trash scaling FF has very low scaling so she has more higher ceiling than everyone RN but it going to be locked behind new units JL has way more scaling than FF, FF is just tied to HMC/JL while JL can be team up with a lot of chars, Summary FF is trash now wait for future units FF is only good is your Hmc build is cracked and you have RM other wise is a trash unit unlike JL is not the same situation

[@silvalgalewalker503]

@@claudiowiseman8488 That's why I said Firefly's case might be worse.

[@claudiowiseman8488]

@@silvalgalewalker503 not that mean that FF is goin to be better in the future since she's Bad now, she can't be worse than now

[@silvalgalewalker503]

@@claudiowiseman8488 You should use "," and "." to make it easier to read your comment

[@Liliphant_]

As a former pokemon player now star rail player, i clicked on this video immediately

[@erelghania355]

Ive been saying this for months. Glad someone else also saw the writing on the wall!

[@ajw.5778]

The only hindrance to Jingliu’s longevity is that she demands specific supports. Which, at the time, was Jingliu’s biggest selling point: “low investment, high reward” and “use Pela with Jingliu and put your harmony characters on the other team”. Remember all the tc’s saying that? Now you’re saying her biggest benefit is going to be her downfall? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on if Hoyo wants to release a dedicated Jingliu support after all this time. She prefers dmg% and def shred over attack and crit buffs. So unlike most dps, she generally does better with supports who have relevant debuffs like Pela or give niche buffs like Ruan Mei. Currently those are the only two of their type whereas there are numerous attack and crit buffers. Therefore you can actually argue that Jingliu is a bit more future-proof than many other dps because she occupies a niche team that has yet to be properly filled. And when that magical support comes along, only Jingliu (currently) would be able to fully utilize them. But again, that depends on if Hoyo wants to buff Jingliu like they have JY and DHIL lol

[@waveman047]

def shred and dmg% are actually as valuable to other dps as much as it is to jingliu, thats one of the main points. everyone benefits from buffs she wants and the buffs that she does have get less returns than other dps units buffing that stat, with how her scaling is balanced this is presenting an issue that she scales less with stronger buffers while everyone else gets more benefits.

[@Xeconis]

When you compare Jingliu to the other damage options at the top of various modes, there's another thing that you start to notice about them. Every single one of them have relics that are perfectly tailored to enhance their kits and the way you were already playing around them. Pioneer is uncontested and perfect for Ratio and Acheron, Cavalry does everything that a Break DPS like Boothill/Firefly could want from a relic set, Prisoner provides exactly what DoT wants for Kafka/Swan, Duke is giving the FUA squad (minus Ratio & Jade) something tailored just for them. Any Quantum DPS is getting Genius and its best aged set bonus, which Seele's been sticking with since day 1, and now Jade/Xueyi are picking it up. The exception here is really the Physical DPS that aren't as specialty focused, Clara and Argenti just don't have options in general. Jingliu has 2 options, either take up Genius JUST for the 20% def ignore vs QUA weak enemies at the cost of an awful penalty for a type mismatch, or use Hunter for similar numbers to using Genius against a QUA weak foe. Hunter is dreadfully generic and simply provides 10% dmg and a 25% crit dmg buff for 2 turns after using an ult, which only partially covers her transmigration state. The counterargument here is that Pioneer and Duke also have some pretty generic effects, but the conditions to gain their buffs don't let that many take advantage of them (comparatively) and thus the actual values of the buffs are larger in comparison. In the case of Prisoner and Cavalry, the characters using them have significantly less stats to worry about in the first place, meaning the value of what they provide is already much higher on top of both providing consistent and potent def ignore. I don't think that Jingliu is facing any sort of impactful decline any time soon. Mihoyo is generally pretty good with scaling their games over time and things tend to take years to really start phasing out characters here and there. Honkai Impact has been around for over 8 years now and has definitely seen it happen, but Genshin's reaching its 4th anniversary in 2 months and the majority of its roster is still viable in its own endgame (which is relatively easier, but they still scale to that). I think people are too willing to throw out the term "powercreep" and I know this is a HOT take because of how loosely "powercreep" is used today, but I believe that true powercreep in Star Rail is currently rather minimal. Most people will look at something like DHIL releasing in 1.3 and then Jingliu following him up and (at the time) just being better than him in pretty much every metric and calling that powercreep. Was DHIL underpowered? No, hell no, you're insane if you thought that. DHIL was not powercrept at all, even at that time. True powercreep occurs when something becomes so underpowered that it's no longer relevant in the meta. In Star Rail, that list is pretty small. Just to use Prydwen as a reference for simplicity's sake, in the 2.4 version of the game, there are 9 characters that fall into T5 in at least one mode. Two of those are Boothill and Luka for PF specifically, both are relevant in MoC/AS. Arlan and Phys MC are the only ones to be in T5 across all three modes, and I don't think anyone would disagree with both of them being entirely obscure and excessively difficult to manage. Yanqing, Dan Heng, Yukong, and Natasha all land T5 in PF but T4 in MoC/AS, they all suffer in PF from a lack of good Blast/AoE (Ratio is T4 in PF right now, too) but for MoC/AS they do have enough in their kits to full clear should you slot them into the right positions, hence "Niche" not "forgotten". They're not as good but they're aren't quite at the point of true obscurity and being no longer viable. The 9th character is Sushang, again T5 in PF because single target only, and T4 for MoC for the same reasons yet again. She lands in T1.5 for AS though because she has relevancy as a physical breaker and I didn't realize Prydwen valued her slightly more than Luka for AS specifically until just now. Neat. How would we prevent or stall the decline for a character like Jingliu? I think one thing we can look at here is that up until the release of Black Swan and Acheron, Jingliu had the single largest output difference between an S5 F2P cone and S1 of her signature cone. The consistent 20% crit dmg, 42% dmg, and 12% def ignore (S1) just outclasses everything else for her and nobody else can use this cone effectively. The 42% is pretty hefty, but when you have Bronya already providing around 106% dmg the diminishing returns start to hit for dmg% like they are for atk%. We've known since Jingliu's release that traditional buffers would pair less effectively with Jingliu than debuffers (except Bronya/Bronya+ and in some cases Tingyun purely for the energy) because of all the effects she's giving herself, so the only way to circumvent this is by providing something different that multiplies better or trying to find a way for a buffer to increase raw multipliers without cracking open the door for literally everyone else. In my ideal scenario for a new support character to assist in Jingliu's long-term future, as someone that has E2S1 Jingliu (yes, as a F2P, I just really like her) and someone that enjoys the challenge of designing things for hypothetical scenarios, if we were to consider a method for how we're going to tackle this, the first thing to note is that it has to be amplification instead of applying a debuff if we don't want to break the wall for everyone else at the same time. Usually buffs on Jingliu have 2 issues, first is her action density, second is diminishing returns. Solving the action density problem is simple, instead of applying a targeted buff like Tingyun or Bronya, we'll follow the Fu Xuan method that was later employed by Ruan Mei and Robin (which would make Yukong a much easier character to use, damnit) where the buff's turn duration is tied to the character providing the effect. This also means that we can make the effect one that only triggers in certain scenarios, such as "When an ally consumes their own HP or the HP of another ally" which would restrict it to Blade, Jingliu, Arlan, and Firefly. Just so that it isn't worthless for others, you can add a generic useful buff, but the fruit is in the niche one. All three of these characters have rather low raw multipliers, Firefly just ignores them by being a Break DPS that gets her damage from obscenely boosting her Break and Super Break. That means that if we were to have an HP consumption conditional that boosts those raw multipliers, Blade, Jingliu, and Arlan get full benefit, but Firefly not as much because it isn't her main source of damage (the break focused supports would be much much better for her still), and any future characters that can fulfill this condition can be balanced around it. Firefly would benefit too much from this new support granting def ignore, even though stacking that would be very useful for the other three. Another nice thing would be a relic set that takes Disciple's idea and makes the benefit actually useful and not restricted to HP consumption being targeted on the self. This is where the def ignore would be best placed, and the values would ideally be comparable to Prisoner, Genius, and Cavalry which are all uncontested best relics for those that use them and a large part of it is that def ignore. I just want to point out that Jingliu having 12% def ignore at S1 is really good for her potential but the fact that Swan's has 28.8% at S1 on top of Prisoner's 18% is absurd and I think that Jingliu getting a consistent relic set that provides def ignore and another useful benefit that only Blade and Arlan could also use to the fullest extent (Cavalry would still be better for Firefly) would just be good for them all. Even though it would mean I have to give up on my honestly kind of really nice Hunter set, the long term would be better than Hunter/Rutilant with my 2.5k atk, 48.3/210.9 crit, 134 spd, ice dmg sphere. I actually don't know exactly what I would do for a planar set here. Every set has a conditional and an unconditional (except Duran), and Rutilant covers the crit rate conditional that Jingliu clears for free. I would say that adding another def ignore would be too much because of scaling and the risk of running someone like Pela out of a job for characters that make use of both hypothetical sets, but Duran is just granting 25% dmg and 25% crit dmg to its users. You really could do a similar thing to Duran and Sigonia with a stacking buff but it's just like the hypothetical relic set based on trigger and effect. Unoriginal after what I said previously, I know. Covering the def ignore heaving for these types of characters means that they could accept a different type of support, most likely in the form of energy and actions. Tingyun and Huohuo provide great energy that would help with tempo for these kinds of characters, particularly Jingliu. If Jingliu could be in transmigration 100% of the time consistently it would at the very least give her no downtime after her first action, and her damage wouldn't have drastic shifts depending on the state of her own kit, which is nice to have at the very least. Sorry that this has been one HELL of a yap fest on a currently 3 week old video, but I do think that pondering ways to circumvent potential shortcomings for various archetypes of kits is an interesting thing to do, and understanding the flaws of each character and how to bolster them without overturning the entire game or boosting them without also boosting everyone better than them (possibly by a larger margin than the character you actually wanted to help) can be an engaging challenge in design. I would E6 her if I could because I just really like her and I'll always do my best to outfit my favorites to the state of the game.

[@chifffy]

Also, based siobhan pfp

[@scrubblesi1233]

Bro thinks he's false swipe gaming In all honesty nice vid

[@waveman047]

youtube is just a huge circle of stealing ideas

[@user-qr3lr7sh1g]

How good was Jinglu actually?

[@sesquipedalian8909]

What's your opinion on acheron? Technically she has a lot of self-buffs as well, but I'd like to know if her multipliers are good enough to be more futureproof. I know her ult has some of the highest scaling so far, but her skill has really pitiful multipliers (60/160/60) which limits her damage to that window of her ult.

[@AsllueSatria]

Wdyt about firefly ? Did she going into same situation?

[@yar3045]

I feel like it's the same situation as Kafka, as more break characters release the stronger Firefly will become, just like how more dot characters release Kafka still being a viable option even months later (similar with topaz and FuA). The only thing that would screw them over is if hoyo releases a character with a kit same as theirs but just better.

[@waveman047]

its really easy to powercreep firefly since she runs off the idea that shes just pure unfiltered break related numbers and has nothing else barring forced implant outside of that to offer. its as simple as someone having higher numbers or similar numbers with an extremely strong utility. she doesnt fall into the jingliu theorem, since break effect meta is currently still in its infancy and hasnt matured yet to show nuances of high be stat and high toughness dmg + wbe. they could go in either direction of making high wbe less good or high toughness damage less good, im not placing my bets on it yet.

[@awesomeperson5150]

I feel like they might actually avoid giving a support high crit rate buffs in future because it’d be a pain to farm two entirely different sets for a character, one with high CDamage and one with high CRate. Yukong’s damage window is also really awkward to play around. Sparkle’s LC and Fu Xuan’s talent give small CRate buffs but they’re relatively minor in comparison to the massive Dmg%, CDamage% or Attack buffs of other supports Maybe they’ve done this in Genshin though, I’m not as aware about it.

[@reyvaldosoetiman2389]

i will say this as long i can clear MOC/PF/AS with my current roaster its a win my goal is simple clear the hardest content, dont care about can 0 turn it or not, the game give you 10 turn for a reason

[@dcakadark]

Does him cooked?

[@TwoToo_]

Dont use sparkles theme again, its so hard to hear what you're saying, the music is draining all my attention

[@theonewhosdead6834]

I don't understand how trial acheron,fu xuan,ruan mei does more dmg than jingliu,fu xuan,ruan mei besides i only left hsr for four to three months now i come back just to experience pain i recently got ruan mei but i still have only one team that is just usefull against ice weaknesses and with no other supports and healers im stuck at every part that needs at least two teams Should i pull for Firefly? since im using ruan mei with jingliu im not sure whether i get her or wait for new dps

[@andythebourne]

For Firefly you need to build up a break effect team from scratch, so it's a lot of investment to get her going. But she is more versatile than Jingliu because she can implant Fire weakness in enemies, and she can reduce toughnesses regardless of elements. Her ideal teammates are very easy to get (harmony MC is free, Gallagher is in the same banner as Firefly, and you already have Ruan Mei). So she is currently the best DPS to get, but if you just want someone who is plug and play into your existing team, you may be better off with Argenti or Jade

[@valcubeto]

What about specific ability buffers

[@yumirow7487]

Neat video. But I think one of your assumptions is wrong. You seem to draw a hard line between extra stats and damage multipliers, whereas they both only are numbers. Sure the former is what most boosts are made of, but not only are the latter possible too for futur supports, we already have a precedent of it called tingyun.

[@waveman047]

good point, adding multipliers like that would actually be relevant would be a new niche entirely though. since tingyun's had only one scenario (xueyi) where it actually mattered.

[@apotatowithnorights]

La verdad, desde que salió Jingliu sospeché q sufriría rápido powercreep x tanto crit rate q obtenía.. al menos en hsr aun no hemos llegado al punto q personajes viejos son inútiles 😔

[@stupindonoormaalo5255]

Imo. No character in this game is another one 100%, as each each has thier own scalings, kit, nuances. Each has thier strengh and weaknesses. One example is between Jl and acheron. Yes acheron is THE dps BETWEEN the two ( no argue about that part ). But she still isn't Jl. I wanna see an acheron being tanky ( relatively) while having built in cv+hp drain mechanics. And being the enabler of hp drain mechanics ( Jl talent ). At the same time i wanna see a Jl having a built in Final dmg multiplayer ( Acheron main reason why she has a ridiculous dmg seiling) + 20 res pen + universal toughness bar breakning. ( For the sake of fairness. Each unit will not reach hes " end " and will never has hes " dream " team completed. As everyone can benefit from everything. What stops Jl from benefiting from acherons supports? ( same as Jy, yanqing, seele, blade etc )

[@cazelle_pie5370]

False Swipe Gaming reference!?

[@Uyhn26]

Well said, great analysis!

[@raiden4mgo]

just saying remembrance is a thing that can total come a skill a unit can use and jingliu and little boy blue will see a little better play making them more effective. it just has not happened yet so they seem extra weak without the rest of the kit that would make them strong.

[@fr1mmel]

i expected this lol but i still pulled for her bc she's so pretty & easy to build

[@waveman047]

facts i would still let her stab me

[@Shay_D_Mann]

High stats aren't necessarily better. High stats don't matter in the face of being off element and having poor synergy with the limited Harmonies. But to be real, it's all about element matching. People complain about Jingliu being "powercrept" but they use her in non-ice stages. Sure, maybe back then, brute forcing with her is possible, but there's a reason why DPS's who aren't on element sucks and it's because of the 20% or 40% damage resist a boss/elite may have. I'm not implying that we should pull every 5 star DPS to cover our elements, but at least level up and use the 4 stars and standard banner characters like Clara to cover weakness elements.

[@waveman047]

fun fact: jingliu was notoriously used to brute force through ice res because her stats were just brutal back then and it wasn't particularly difficult to pull off. usually involving pela and her sig but still. the spirit of what you said is true though, elements are huge

[@Shay_D_Mann]

@@waveman047 This was before they buffed the hell out of MoC enemies. I did the same. It honestly made the element mechanic redundant and made the game a massive joke. But Brute forcing worked until bosses got 1 million HP per phase. Though, I’m not complaining about these HP buffs, because it forces us to play by the game’s mechanics rather than straight up bypassing them. Being on element and using the right synergies helps me clear every MoC 12 with a zero cycle so far without limited Eidolons. I genuinely feel like they just want us to play on element more than anything. I don’t feel compelled to pull for characters to get my zero cycle clears.

[@djseppy2941]

im using here in brute force MOC. still can 0 cycle .

[@Eclin]

She doesn’t even need to bruteforce back in the day, i remember most MoC phase has at least 1 ice weak chamber for quite a while. There was even one with 8/12 floors are all ice weak lol.

[@Shay_D_Mann]

@@Eclin Yeah, but MoC flavors rotate depending on the banner characters so I'm sure Jingliu's time will come again. With rumors of a new Xianzhou Ice Hunt 5 star coming out within the 2.X Xianzhou updates, I'm sure we'll get Ice stages back in MoC.

[@user-eo4it2rn1f]

wait im so confuse so too much stat but not enough scallings is bad is that the vid D:. but in the vid u refer xueyi as a good example but the rest are bad, im so confuse sry. technically they can make jingliu better if yes they release a furina who can drain the team hp and buff raw scalling which can improve jingliu no?

[@elijahjarobi]

Xueyi good because her self buffs are stats that are rare

[@waveman047]

i dedicated almost two minutes to explain xueyi, and the furina thing is not to buff raw scaling but to buff the niche of draining self and team hp in general to the point that jingliu actually has better buffs that only her gimmick can provide, it wont actually be because of her raw scaling suddenly being good.

[@user-eo4it2rn1f]

@@waveman047 oh thx. i watched the thing but my brain just understand nothing like the info enter then leaves sr

[@user-eo4it2rn1f]

@@waveman047 also in genshin most units pair with furina dont even drain their hp and she is almost or is best in slot so it might work for jingliu too since she has mini hp drain which is a plus already but not much if the hsr furina has massive hp team drain on her own

[@kubix426]

Shoutout to False Swipe Gaming

[@oyfum2638]

I think it’s still important to note that yes, while Jing Liu does suffer from diminishing returns, it doesn’t necessarily mean that atk or crit dmg buffers are bad for her. The diminishing returns are a thing, but u also kind of miss out on like 5 other reasons why Jing Liu is actually synergistic with x support. The best comparison I can make is Hu Tao in genshin. A unit that benefits from being low hp and has hp -> atk conversion. Does this mean Bennet is a bad pairing for her? No actually, very far from it. Hu Tao Yelan Bennet Kazuha is still Hu Tao’s best team in terms of clear times and offers very good flexibility as well with Kazuha’s grouping. The point I’m trying to make here is that, I think people tend to overrate Jing Liu’s standard Bronya Ruan Mei, or Bronya Pela team and say that’s her only team because she doesn’t benefit from atk or crit dmg buffers. Her teams can be pretty flexible, her synergy with Tingyun and Robin might surprise some people, and I’ve even seen some ppl use Sparkle Jing Liu and also achieve decent success. Ofc I haven’t really tested that out yet much, but I can definitely vouch for Jing Liu’s synergy with Robin or Tingyun

[@therion451]

He doesnt say that Jingliu cant work with supports, hes basically saying that Jingliu has less future potential than other dps. Also I never trust someone who brings up "this team is the best in terms of clear times" with no context whatsoever

[@oyfum2638]

@@therion451 I’m not discrediting this person’s video, mb if I came off like that. I only wanted to clarify for maybe ppl that watched the video that Jingliu still has good synergy with these supports and diminishing returns isn’t exactly enough of a reason to completely gimp her synergy with these supports, in fact I’d say some of them are competitive or even better then Bronya which this person said is Jing Liu’s perfect support when the alternatives are very competitive or even better in some scenarios. And the clear times thing, I talk with a lot of speedrunners who are also Tao mains, and they’ve always said how vv vape Tao has consistently been their fastest and most flexible Hu Tao team variant even after the release of Furina and Xianyun.

[@Vergil69420]

a 300 jingliu on support deals less dmg than my 167 acheron

[@BelialRus]

For the record i disagree with the takes in the video, but liked+sub anyway bc i feel critical analysis like this is important and useful

[@LucasGomes-ng2go]

the recent Jingliu doomposting is crazy, mine is still easily doing 3-4 cycle clears in any MoC besides the current second side, bcs that boss was designed to make anybody but Firefly and maybe Himeko struggle

[@angeldiaz762]

I could sense something was wrong with some of my DPS's, and this video was my bingo moment. I _knew_ I wasn't crazy. I never really used Yanquing, probably because it took forever for me to pull him, but I did level him to 80 and now that we have the Divergent universe, I might use him just for fun. I have Jingliu. E0. And, the fact of the matter is, she, like a lot of Destruction and Hunt, is handicapped to a certain degree without her Signature LC, which I do NOT have. Vars put it best when he said that "the LC's are [buffers] support characters unto themselves." I kinda had Jingliu on the bench most of the time for awhile after PF came out, but now I'm trying to build a Jingliu hypercarry team, so I'm revisiting her. Provided you can have ice weakness, she works great _when_ she works. As a main DPS, you're going to be using her for damage, NOT freeze, as needlessly stacking EHR on relics would be deleterious to her damage output. And really, if you're reading this, I implore you to actually use Pela or Silver Wolf when you're using Jingliu, as their def-down is a huge boon for Jingliu: instead of buffing you, you're debuffing the enemy. And the debuff doesn't require them to stay alive to stay in place, like Harmony's buffs usually do. I was legitimately going kookoo with Xueyi a while back, her Ultimate was dealing like 3000 and her damage was a lot lower than my other units, and I was super confused. Put her on the bench, tried her again, and still not enough. I dunno if there's a Break Effect light cone somewhere in the game that's supposed to be her BiS, but I haven't seen one. I do want to be using her, but I am still not sure how. I have Firefly now, so I have a main DPS that can deal Break dmg. Blade is an interesting case study because he's the only HP scaler, and he works best in a team with Jingliu for HP draining in order to proc that talent as often as possible. Perhaps Topaz could buff him, but then you're trying to run two sub-DPS's, and at that point you could choose someone else. In conclusion, Hoyo does this by design because if every character was built exactly the same and needed the exact same gear then there would be no incentive to build multiple teams. I like that the game incentivizes team synergizing, and determining who complements who better, but at the same time it can at times cross into a point of being frustrating to build characters, especially with the relic farming.

[@rewieoscar6753]

I thought this was some falseswipe 's videos about pokemon lol

[@everald]

The false swipe gaming pipeline

[@AHAB-conscious]

Question, what would happen to jingliu, if they added an shen he or yu jin ?

[@waveman047]

shenhe would have to be the best buffer in the game but only for ice (which misha has a better future with more than anything). for yunjin idk what you mean by that. just a spd buff is pretty unecessary.

[@AHAB-conscious]

@@waveman047 more of the flat stacks thing

[@FryG4541]

@@waveman047 we have asta for speed buff already too

[@latenter1428571]

The main thing for a dps is a scaling percentage. Xueyi has huge damage buff but very low scaling percentage that probably no support will ever buff. It wouldn't be a problem if it was relatively small decrease but it's 2 or even 3 times worse than average so this 240% dmg boost can't even compensate the difference. But yeah, now she is good for Super Break. Still Boothill and Firefly both are much much better.

[@waveman047]

xueyi's versatility was the main point of that, crit xueyi is really competitive since buffing dmg% is still not high enough to be too overbearing on her 240% base (even at 1.5x, her talent alone, which goes off nearly every turn is 405% ATK scaling) to say nothing of her break damage in the crit teams being absurd. then we can hop on the superbreak discussion and she still deals that much dmg on crits and even better since the crit focused carries are out of their element due to lack of break effect and the only dmg% buffer being RM, but she remains unaffected. worse than a limited 5 star is hardly a bad thing, especially compared to those two who have a much harder time being crit carries.

[@latenter1428571]

@@waveman047 Well, I guess Xueyi is worse than Sushang in being hybrid and Super Break dps. And worse than QQ against quantum weak enemies. Her FuA is rare and very limited even with E6. She can do almost anything but not that great. And pretty much the only dps in the game who significantly falls off against off-element stages (which is funny 'cause she ignores elements with her ult). Even Himeko still can consistently trigger her FuA when her teammates break enemies. And on top of that Xueyi is incredibly hard to build. So I would say there's not much potential for Xueyi in the future. She is fun to play but far from being an optimal choice for any kind of scenarios.

[@ca1289]

@@latenter1428571 Xueyi damage buff works really well with Tingyun's benediction (it's damage scales from Xueyi's buff). So if similar, but better support will come, Xueyi will have a huge benefit from it

[@waveman047]

no, sushang is much worse as a crit carry. her scalings are not that good at all and isnt backed up by a high stat so even then its off the table. the main benefit of sushang in nearly every team, superbreak or no, is having a lot of sp efficiency so someone else can use skill and do dmg with her (hmc for superbreak and clara for crit). but it is true that xueyi is incredibly limited in elemental matchups, this is like top 1 reason shes not the 4 star dps that can crush some limited 5 stars, because shes extremely capable of being one, they just dont do it enough for it to be the norm (check her cycle clears every time a quantum weak enemy appears, it's absurd).

[@latenter1428571]

@@waveman047 I mean every niche character clears with low cycles just because of a few nerds but if you look at the average QQ is destroying Xueyi. And QQ is more than capable to clear off-element stages really fast (with Sparkle's help, of course). Never saw mono-quantum teams with Xueyi in PvP, it's always QQ or Seele. Sushang crit potential is definitely not great but physical break is stronger and more common. Though even without it her speed and action advance make her at least comparable to Xueyi if not better. Imo Xueyi desperately needs new mechanic like dealing toughness damage to already weakness broken enemies. Most of her damage comes from FuA that can't be triggered many times (remember why Himeko wasn't great in MoC until the current iteration?). Ult can be useful for Super Break but it's not cheap and characters with bounce mechanic are much better due to high toughness damage just by their skills.

[@ambulance-kun5915]

The highest atk in my account rn belongs to robin

[@BelialRus]

Dont want to sound like JL fanboy, but the take really just scratches the surface. you ignore meta and also dmg formula is far bigger than 2 modifiers which means opportunity cost will always be an issue. Jingliu being low SP consumption char that can stack up huge self buffs she can look elsewhere for amplification. So you get things like Robin + Bronya which could never work for someone like DHIL (which has higher stat scaling multiplier) to act 3 times per AV, which makes 250% skill multiplier suddenly become 750 skill multiplier (basically). Im not even starting on defshred and other amplification options. TLDR opportunity cost for her team is lowest till this day and tho powercreep is inevitable it does not come in the form of base stat scaling. Even if we look at the actual perfomance, Xueyi (a fantastic char I agree) remain a meta slave, where JL is able to bruteforce 0 cycle every moc till this day for mere 2 gold cost (some of the lowest if not the lowest) Once again. amazing vid, quickly becoming one of my fav channels, just think the quality and depth can improve in some aspects.

[@waveman047]

you can play two at that game though, dhil w/ sparkle vs jingliu w/ bronya is a better competition and sparkle overall has way more upsides than bronya in almost every other team due to crit being so rare for everyone else and the sp always being appreciated. it would be a different scenario if we have a dhil of supports that eats a lot of sp but is the best support in the game (which bronya isnt in most cases). that being said, i really appreciate your comments, since it makes me think of things more critically :)

[@BelialRus]

​@@waveman047 bronya actually has slightly better overall ST buffs than sparkle its just her being sp negative makes it hard to use with a lot of characters. If we look in terms of BiS supports both Bronya and Sparkle have fallen off significantly in the face of Robin. Basically each has 2-3 bis characters (QQ, DHIL and Acheron for Sparkle and Boothill, Jingliu, Blade for Bronya). But that's a different topic I guess. As for DHIL he aged way worse than Jingliu regardless of his high multiplier on E. You basically need his E2 + Sparkle at this point to perform. Sure an argument can be made that at higher investment it gets much better but in a gacha you can always pay to win, so I prefer to look at things from low investment/result perspective.

[@waveman047]

compared to jingliu? i dont think thats true, especially since dhil isnt fast at all and concentrates all his dmg to abuse short buff frames while jingliu has worse mandatory downtime in her bis team...

[@BelialRus]

@@waveman047 Its true and it is backed by every theory and practice data available. E2 DHIL can compete tho. But I really dont want to turn this into another DHIL vs Jingliu argument. Point is, that the argument you make it the video is flawed. Even for Yanquing his main issue are not so much his low multipliers, but his drawbacks which force him into running with shielder. That alone makes 0 cycling with him much trickier, but even worse - all current shields work off DD turn so he can run into issues utilizing action advance (or even speed buffs), which is the main amplification source for crit DD.

[@waveman047]

i don't consider 0 cycling too heavily in my evaluations because it's way too extreme and frankly unrealistic to convince people to try and go for it when it's all the same rewards (especially when you see casual teams and builds these days). If the normal person is satisfied running Aventurine in Seele/Boothill teams, it shouldn't be a real issue to have a shielder as a requirement no? It's perfectly manageable for casual play, there's just something wrong with Yanqing more than how shielders work.

[@fish6494]

is this an FSG inspired title?

[@waveman047]

this entire channel is an FSG version of HSR at this point

[@dante19890]

every dps will be powercrept

[@Hououin818]

I think Jingliu could be buff in the future by releasing a sp that use their skill like IL but the more sp they consume the larger the buff is

[@waveman047]

another sparkle meta incoming, in fact this would resurge some weird archetypes like 3 harmony more than jingliu, depends on the stat.

[@Hououin818]

​@@waveman047 It would be a nice buff for Jingliu and Blade, especially him because he already traded his sp efficiency for both lower dmg ceiling and floor

[@radvil]

Bro thinks he's FSG It's a good video tho

[@irena4929]

Glad i skip jingliu on her rerun lol people overrated her "easy to build" when she has much lower ceiling and dont work well with other support that that tend to buff crit/atk with how diluted her self buff is