Why Honoring the Gifts and Abilities of Women is Relevant to Dechurching

In this episode of As In Heaven, Jim Davis and Mike Aitcheson welcome Jen Wilkin to discuss the importance of seeing and honoring women's gifts and abilities in the church as it pertains to dechurching in America. When understanding God's design for the roles of women in the church, it is important that we seek to honor and value women in the midst of seeking biblical fidelity and clarity.

[@DadHominem]

Jen is a gifted teacher who clearly has a heart for women's ministry, but her positions regarding how churches are run seem to reveal that she's a bit miffed that women teachers are not provided a more central role in the church. It is clear that Jen sees the church through the lens of a feminist/egalitarian perspective, and as such she offers some illuminative criticisms of the model of church followed by the congregations she is familiar with. Jen describes 1 Tim 2:12 as “highly controversial” (despite the fact that Paul references the fall in his reasoning). Note that, in 1 Tim 2, Paul does NOT make the argument that women as less talented/smart/communicative and as such they should not be teachers or leaders. It isn't permitted, and the fall is cited as the reason. Period. Similarly, is 1 Tim 3:2-7 also “highly controversial”? Probably not. Why? Because we don’t have large numbers of people who want to rationalize ignoring it. "Controversial" seems to be today's catch=phrase for Biblical teachings that many wish they could ignore/avoid. Is it really true, as Jen claims, that “Often, men in ministry have been told that women are to be treated in a guarded manner, because they are either showing up as a usurper - someone who wants to take, or as a temptress - someone who wants to sleep with them, or as a child - someone who is needy and is going to require of them more time than they can give.”? I find that difficult to believe. Jen also claims that “Pastors don’t know if a woman in their church has a teaching gift because they never set foot in the pink ghetto”. I'm male, and I and others have taught Bible studies for YEARS in churches without a pastor or elder ever checking in to see how things are going or what is even being taught. Is this a good thing? No, it certainly isn't. My point here is simply that the experience of a lack of pastoral involvement is not limited to an imaginary "pink ghetto". I wholeheartedly agree with Jen's description of men and women in church as being a family of brothers and sisters (my paraphrase), but I think her frustrations with the church aren't due to an ingrained misogyny within the pastors and elders, but due more to the fact that there are fallen, flawed humans running things as best they can - with attention to scriptural fidelity - and not everyone is going to agree with how things are done.

[@HearGodsWord]

Jen is a complementarian, not an egalitarian.

[@DadHominem]

@@user-iz8np3vv4i You're conflating civil authority with spiritual authority. 1Tim 2 is clear, and Paul is clear in his reasoning. This is why Jesus did not call females as apostles. By way of additional perspective, name the female priests of the Old Testament (see Exodus 28:1). The issue is simply who is permitted to exercise authority, and who isn't. God made that perfectly clear.

[@DadHominem]

@@user-iz8np3vv4i You're grossly misunderstanding the history and meaning of those passages, and you misunderstand the common meaning of complementarianism. The Judges, as transitional authority figures, were not the counterparts of "pastors", any more than the (later) kings were the counterparts of "pastors". Those are two completely different offices. Deborah was NOT the counterpart of later pastors. Not at all. You simply have your history wrong. Read Sandra Richter's "The Epic of Eden". Or, for deeper insight, read Meredith Kline's "Kingdom Prologue". I think that much of Jen Wilkin's teaching is based upon Kline's original work.

[@DadHominem]

@@user-iz8np3vv4i It seems you are also confused about the fact that the story of Deborah, a great and effective Judge, was descriptive NOT prescriptive. For instance, Paul was a tentmaker. Should we then be tentmakers also? Of course not. I understand that, seen through the lens of modern western culture, some people bristle at what the Bible says about how we should order and live our lives.

[@DadHominem]

@@user-iz8np3vv4i Once again you missed the context that I added. Deliberate? :) "It seems you are also confused about the fact that the story of Deborah, a great and effective Judge, was descriptive NOT prescriptive. For instance, Paul was a tentmaker. Should we then be tentmakers also? Of course not." Have a blessed day. Best wishes with picking and choosing the parts of the Bible you accept, and those you rebel against. You're not alone.

[@Mrmarina333]

I cannot believe how feminist this all sounds! Her books may have been nice and helpful but these convictions about sibling relationships in local churches and church staff men needing to spend more intimate time with the female employees and all this “our church is proudly 50/50 male to female staff ratio”… I’ll be blunt to even suggest heresy. Not much scripture in this talk at all. The scripture that was mentioned was “controversial “ so obviously they can just skip over that. And what’s up with all the boasting about her gifts of teaching from her teen years and how men in church don’t notice these amazing kind of women (like herself)?? Mainly, the Bible says that older women are to teach the younger women. At what point was she qualified to teach other women? It sounded like she was up and running that department in high school. Also, I’d just like to get in their church and do an anonymous survey for all the wives of the male church staff and ask how they feel about their husbands getting to know their sisters on a deeper level? Now how do you expect that to work out in a fallen world? Hello 😂 come to think of it, women and men have only been working together since around WW2. She must think all of church history is very much misogynistic. Obeying clear and Black and White scripture passages IS where true freedom is for believers in any church. Now what we see here is called twisting and perverting the truth. Sadly, I’ve found the TGC writers doing a lot of this in a very sneaky manner.

[@zach.shepard]

Absolutely right.

[@edwynn9342]

This is the problem with complementarianism. Just like the Republicans following the Democrats, they continue to yield ground and find exceptions rather than trying to honor the Lord's intent.

[@michaelhuguet5415]

Funny how that works. Tell your elders they need to have closer relationships with women, then a few years later discipline the pastor because he got too close to a woman. I’m no conspiracy theorist, but…

[@aubreybain7751]

😅👆

[@DmitriyMollla]

Exactly my thoughts. "We are just brothers and sisters after all."

[@DmitriyMollla]

Jen sounds extremely like a feminist in most of the things she says here. This reminds me too much of the Equity and Inclusion training I went through at a super progressive company in the past. Where do you get the idea that men/women should have 50% representation in the church staff? Where do you get the idea that women’s satisfaction and purpose should come from a vocation outside of the home? Where do you get the idea that women can’t teach and be spiritual mothers outside of an official role in a church…? much of Jen’s views have little to do with scripture and sound mostly like influence of contemporary world culture. The scripture she does use needs to be twisted and stretched to support her arguments.

[@lindsaysimplified]

I’ve seen some accusing Jen of being a feminist progressive but I’m almost finished listening to the entire thing and I find myself agreeing with a lot of it, and where I may disagree I wouldn’t start calling names or degrading her. If I’ve learned anything coming out of the fundamentalist hyper-patriarchy reformed crowd it’s that anytime they disagree with someone “progressive feminist” is their favorite slander against said person.

[@ahandfuloffun]

Lots of talking, not much bible.

[@joygibbons5482]

‘Authority and submission being the primary notes we sound over, and over, and over” oh yes, that’s what I remember from my evangelical upbringing. Theology degree here, and now an atheist

[@nathanhimbeault8433]

What is this "dechurching" nonsense? I'm very suspicious of your credibility as "Christian teachers" when you use words like this. The Church is Christ's bride. Why would you want to dechurch?

[@hollidayquezada8954]

You don’t drop your guard and get loose with opposite sexes and alone time in the church. And you don’t want a culture of fear and uncomfortableness and speculation from one sex to the other. No believing the best about the other. There needs to be a balance. Fear God, be wise, and honor your brother and sister in Christ. Biggest concern: Jen says it about the family of God vs Ephesians 5 Christs headship with the church is paralleled with Husbands headship in marriage. Read Titus 2. Women aren’t to teach men the scriptures with authority. There’s inconsistencies with revealing your churches new progressive move of elders (pre blessing/overseeing women teaching over men) even taking the pulpit.

[@paulvoit5610]

So you had to do a comprehensive University reviewed study by PhDs in Sociology? This shows you rejected Scripture's truth that people leave God's Church because of UNBELIEF in order to find an answer that fits your unbiblical agenda.

[@yaelthieme6527]

I'm a young woman praying over what ministry as a woman could look like. I came out of a very conservative, fundamentalist church. I am now a member of a healthy, gospel-fueled church that embraces complementarianism. I am learning so much and realizing how much freedom is found in a church where life submitted to the Word of God and compelled by the love of Christ. I don't yet know what place there is for me, and I'm learning to be patient in understanding my gifts. I don't know what they are, but I love serving my church and if I could dedicate my life to doing that, I would. That's where I'm at and what I'm praying through, and this showed up on my feed! I'm so thankful for this conversation.

[@DmitriyMollla]

The Bible is clear on the gifs and roles of women. You can know what place there is for you. Seek out what scripture calls women to do and pursue those noble goals.

[@brittanysmitany743]

The Bible is very clear on the gifts and roles of Christians. You can know what place there is for you. Seek out what Scripture calls Christians to do and pursue those noble goals. 😉💛

[@DmitriyMollla]

@@brittanysmitany743 The lady addressed her comment as a "woman" seeking her role in the church. The Bible speaks to all Christians and in many parts it speaks in more detail and clarity to specific Christians (younger women, older women, younger men, older men, children...) There is no need for androgyny. part of the beauty of Christianity is that Christians are different and we all have a beautiful and important role to play in the Church and this world.

[@wushizzle76]

Quoting Brene Brown more than Scripture is illustrative. Jen is working way too hard to convince people she's still Biblically faithful.

[@TheBaldkrash]

Is there a link to the paper they keep referring to?

[@ChristyGloryMom1821]

Same. Where can we read this paper?

[@DadHominem]

For the paper Jen references, do an Internet search for "institute 2017 the role of women in the village church". It is available in PDF form.

[@ChristyGloryMom1821]

@@DadHominem thank you!

[@deborahanderson7992]

9/13/23 Thank you for bringing this topic to the table. There are women who have giftedness who are languishing for lack of opportunity, and the church is poorer for it. I don't believe Jen is challenging Scripture, just encouraging the church to develop the gifts of all its members within the confines of Scripture.

[@hebrews412studies5]

Interesting enough the book of Ezekiel has a lot to say about the New Jerusalem. Additionally, the Old Testament has a lot to say about how a woman is created equal in value, but different in role. There was a purpose given to a woman in the family and in the church that is highly valuable, and then there are roles given to men. God is ordered and not chaotic (1 Cor. 14:33). A statement made in a context where Paul reminds the church of its God-given roles where gender is still specific... There are many truths stated in this interview; however, there are also many interwoven faults against Biblical standard. By the way, this is ALL Theology. It all demonstrates your view and study of who God is and how His Word plays out. That is Theology - The study of God and His Word. So, here, roles by created order are a picture of God's order, design, and intent. Roles provide both a value and purpose for both men and women. This is why the Bible is not "whispering" on this subject, or even remotely quiet by the least degree. Rather, many New Testament books speak on this subject. Direct addresses can be found in 1 Corinthians, 1st & 2 Timothy, and Titus. Interesting enough, each of those books limits roles of men, AND limit roles of women. The purpose being that both know their place and purpose for a properly functioning family and church body. I suspect (but do not know) the reason men may be becoming less satisfied than the women in your survey at The Village is because some are realizing what they have unleashed and are convicted about it... Yet, now they are shamed if they think otherwise. By the way, the end of this clip is literally a page out of the feminist social agenda playbook. The reality is that this whole bit is very dangerous; however, that does not mean that every church in disagreement suppresses women. Rather, taking a true hermeneutic look understanding God's created order from start to finish was "good". Genesis 3 is a reiteration of what was already put in place by God in Genesis 1 & 2.

[@DannyMac100]

This is feminism hiding behind a veneer of complementarianism. God made Adam to be Eve’s head, she was to submit to him as his helper. God commanded that woman ought not to teach or exercise authority over men. God designed relational intimacy between men and women to take place in the context of marriage. The irony is that her own pastor, Matt Chandler, got mixed up in a relationship with a woman in the church and stepped down for a period of time.

[@joygibbons5482]

Thanks for confirming that women have to place in Christianity. We’ve noted this and left

[@DannyMac100]

Lol

[@MWBowen403]

A workplace where women are happier than men is a good thing. - Jen Wilkin ha what?

[@nicoleh8347]

You go first Jen. Have your husband form some deep emotional bonds with other women.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

The lord God made man in his image male and female, our father mother who is in heaven holy is your name, image of God, power and love as one, man power woman love, not just power Without Love wrath without mercy man, and not just love without power mercy woman, but power and love as one, image of God, power and love Wrath and mercy live in the same house, this is the house of the Lord, Jen speaks wisely, her eye is good, when your eye is good your whole body is full of light,

[@johntobey1558]

Glad to say that that debate really encouraged my wife amd I to continue to matriculate our Children at a Classical Christian Education where mysoginy is restrained, rebuked and replaced by empowering womem with advamced degrees from Ivy league Schools remain intellectual leaders in society like my wife who has a degree from The School of Social Policy at University of Pennsylvannia.