Why I don't use CNC: My Holzwerken Live presentation

A presentation I gave at "Holzwerken live" in Hamm, Germany on November 9 2024, about why I don't use a CNC. This is the english version.
German version • CAD: ja CNC: nein -- V...

[@nottimothy5994]

I appreciate the effort you put in to share this with us!

[@pistool1]

Dad is spoiling us. Christmas is soon.

[@RagingShrimp67]

Someone should let Matthias know there's a thing called "laser", which eliminates practically all of the problems he mentioned, are about 70% cheaper to buy/build and run than a mill, silent, can be ventilated outside with a 10$ fan, has less kerf than a band saw, can cut 21mm in a single pass, has no tool wear, way faster than a mill and with a software my 5yo can operate.

[@Promit]

I think there's a more interesting, but less flashy talk hiding in here - why the bandsaw is the most underrated woodworking tool. Optimizing the bandsaw and projects using it are the real MVP of this talk.

[@robertharris1748]

In the UK, nobody (hyperbole!) has a table saw and everyone uses a band saw. When I moved to the US, I was baffled as to why everyone has a table saw (which is significantly more dangerous) and nobody has a band saw. Of course if you're just making everything out of plywood it does make sense. Square footage is also much more of a problem in the densely urban UK. Table saws take up way too much room!

[@DomingoFreire]

I think you are one of the best woodworkers in KZbin. Congratulations and thank you for each video you were make for us.

[@radioroestig9638]

That's a good presentation explaining the actual pros and cons on what cncs are useful for. I've worked in a company where i managed a large woodworshop (with all the usual woodworking machines) and also a cnc room with two full size cncs (among other workshops). And i can confirm that 90% of the cnc work, is just mdf sheets, or other sheet stock. However, the cncs are occasionally used for doing solid wood working. This can be routing more complicated cutouts on the bottom of a tabletop, flattening large pieces of wood, making wooden molds for veneer press tooling, or 3d contoured shapes in that need to be exact in all dimensions. But again, if it is at all possible to make solid wood projects by hand/tools, then that is almost always easier and faster than using the cnc.

[@zgabarici]

I watched , thank you for the hard work. 99% challenges of cnc all in one video. I doubt you can find it anywhere else in such a concise format

[@growingforests]

As someone who runs a CNC everyday and loves your videos I gotta say that somewhere around a third to half the things you said were wrong. But I don't blame you because it sounds like you haven't spend much time using one. We do hardwood all the time, lots of 3d. Predrill all holes etc... they save a ton of time changing code and reposting is fast. All the reasons you live CAD you would also love CAM for if you had the experience I think. Hobby machines are getting better but you can easily get a large industrial servo machine for 5k these days if you know where to look and what to look for. I have purchased 2 for that price.

[@carlslater7492]

Can't agree more, in fact see my later post. I have a Onefinity Elite Foreman with a 3Hp spindle and Automatic Tool Changer ... granted not a cheap machine rigged the way I have it. But I will say I AM THE WEAK link, not the machine. But I do agree the CNC is NOT the right tool for every job. Once the pattern is made, an "L" fence on a tablesaw is a massive production machine.

[@finchworks7956]

I taught CNC programming for 25 years and used a large (5 x10ft bed) router for cutting large and small items, hardwood, plywood, melamine board, etc. Even this large machine was not overly loud. My home machine (24 x 36") is not very loud because it has a router spindle instead of a portable router. Much of what Matthias said was based on his dislike of the CNC router, instead of experience actually using one.

[@serdiefgotreb]

He collects abandoned wood and you want him to spend 5k for just a motor?

[@UrMomGeyOK]

5k.... dude. This a channel for people with more brains and time than money. His whole shop probably costs less than 5k, I know mine does.

[@TheRainHarvester]

I made "GatorCAM for CNC" for this resi resin. It does amazing CAM so easily. It's only $12 now but will be going to $400. But you'll always get the upgrades for life. I hate rental software as a CNCist myself!😊

[@Jer_Schmidt]

Thanks for sharing! I started my woodworking with CNC, then over time used it less and less because of all the programming, workholding, and finish work involved. When I moved I didn't even bother bringing the machine with me.

[@andrewgalbreath2101]

This is why I like Frank Howarth's CNC videos. He does things with a CNC you couldn't do any other way, not just stuff that'd be easier on the bandsaw

[@matthiaswandel]

True, I think he's the only guy I know of that makes truly 3d shapes on a CNC -- and uses solid wood.

[@billymurphy3]

Franks a G

[@prototype3a]

I think the problem with most CNC woodworkers is that they either aren't aware of or don't understand the common practices and methods used in CNC (metal) machining to achieve higher efficiencies, surface finishes, etc. They're essentially happy to get very basic "working" toolpaths out of their software. In the past, I've tried to give Frank H tips or advice since he has a large audience who could learn from him learning but I've not seen any evidence of him actually reading my comments so I stopped commenting.

[@emo65170.]

@@prototype3a What's an example of a common metal CNC practice or method that would be most helpful to a new CNC woodworker?

[@Mhj96813]

Maybe if you build a cnc you could use it as a large format plotter to print your paper templates. 🙂

[@Alexander84129]

Sounds to me like the answer is a cnc bandsaw

[@matthiaswandel]

Pretty much impossible except for very specific parts. Certainly wouldn't be able to just run a sheet through it and have it cut multiple parts on its own.

[@Grandroborox]

I chuckled.

[@zokraft]

There are some people who fit a portable bandsaw on a kuka robot. Looks very useful for carpentry joints and sizing posts and beams.

[@Convolutedtubules]

@@matthiaswandel CNC band saw Hopper 2021 is almost what you described. It can cut several parts all on its own, as seen in their demo video. There are definitely some limitations but it seems viable.

[@travismiller5548]

that's interesting! i will research it. this makes me wonder if milwaukee is rushing to develop a jobsite EDM for the steel erectors. 🤑 ​@@Convolutedtubules

[@farktard2740]

Your bilingual language ability makes this so interesting for a singular language person! So amazing you can write a script and read it back to the camera in both languages. So cool :)

[@scottcountryman6090]

That’s AI sir

[@marksstudio]

You taught me tapered stave turning through one of your videos, and I am ever grateful. Been a long time subscriber and glad of it.

[@matthiaswandel]

I was just thinking "I never did that", but I guess you mean that segmented bowl I turned ten years ago. I wasn't sure those butt joints would hold, but ten years on, still solid.

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@matthiaswandel Just to let you know there's a thing called "laser", which eliminates practically all of the problems you mentioned in the video, are about 70% cheaper to buy/build and run than a mill, silent, can be ventilated outside with a 10$ fan, has less kerf than a band saw, can cut 21mm plywood in a single pass, has no tool wear, requires no workpiece holding , is way faster than a mill and with a software my 5yo can operate.

[@Convolutedtubules]

@@RagingShrimp67 Is this a particular product/build that you are describing here?

[@RagingShrimp67]

@@Convolutedtubules There are a couple to choose from, I took an existing product and simply extended the profiles and wires.

[@Convolutedtubules]

@@RagingShrimp67 Which product did you start with? Also, name the one that can cut 21mm ply.

[@54114142]

Hab beiden Versionen einen Daumen rauf gegeben 😁

[@groundzero_-lm4md]

Matthias follows good Design for Manufacturing for his set of tools and prefered work style. Printing a paper template and then cutting it out can replicate most of the things people use their CNC to cut out.

[@RagingShrimp67]

I guess lasers never made it to Canada yet...?

[@trevorgdn]

@@RagingShrimp67 Not a bad idea but you would need to sand off the markup afterwards.

[@PhongNguyen-iz3sj]

My CNC is a tool just like any other woodworking tools. I design my projects then use the tool that works best for a particular part. It is just a matter of working with a CNC and build up the experience. I do admit I do go for months at a time with out ever turning on the CNC. On the other hand there are parts that can only be done on the CNC and I'm glad I have one in my collection to tools. LOVE all your videos.

[@a2handyman]

Matthias love your chanel and projects. But I think most of what you said is wrong. Dust collection has to be dealt with on any machine. Poor layout, well is just that and exists no matter what the process used. The CNC is not meant to replace other meathods, but as Phong said another very useful tool.

[@turpskadey]

​@@a2handymanmissed the fact this entire thing is "why does Mattias not use it?" And it's entirely his preference and why he feels that way?

[@FBWJX]

@@a2handyman He literally builds dust collectors for individual machines already so I don't know why this machine is an issue either?

[@FBWJX]

@@turpskadey but it was at a public tradeshow or something originally, I hate to see people get talked out of new tools (arguably the future of tools is cnc) by someone who doesn't even understand how they work fully. The same way I am sure he would correct someone making a video about how bandsaws are a waste of time but they dont even use one...

[@ObesityandLag]

Thanks for sharing in english! Appreciate it.

[@AWoodworkersLife]

I found this really insightful and agree on all of your points. Some might be interested to know that I did a complete cost vs process vs output of adding CNC to my cabinet shop and I couldn’t make it pay vs just having a dedicated CNC shop cut all the pieces for me. I know that’s a little outside the scope of your talk but it surprised me just how hard it was to financially make a positive fiscal case for owning a 4x8 CNC.

[@arthurchaves5208]

Thanks!

[@txkflier]

If you do it, we will watch it. This was an excellent video. Thanks!

[@1pcfred]

I'm here for Matthias making a CNC machine. See how smart he really is. There's a few pitfalls with it all. I know I had to make a diet of crow building mine. You've got to be realistic.

[@txkflier]

@@1pcfred I’m sure he can build and program one. He’s pretty sharp..

[@1pcfred]

@@txkflier I'm sure he can build something. I'm curious how well it's going to work when he's done. We're going to find out how sharp he is. Building a CNC machine can put one to the test. In this video he demonstrated some ignorance regarding the topic. So he has some things to learn.

[@txkflier]

@ I think he was totally correct..

[@bunkie2100]

Building your own CNC can be fun in and of itself. The Lowrider (now in MkIV) can be made from inexpensive parts (a combination of simple tubes, some bearings, printed parts, some electronics and a cheap router).

[@1pcfred]

Yeah another I have a 3D printer projects.

[@TheRainHarvester]

You Would really like "GatorCAM for cnc". On my channel

[@acanadianwoodworker]

Now that I have a CNC, it really does make a lot of things easier. If you're clever and spend a little time on layout you can reduce waste quite a bit. And it replaces SO MANY jigs, especially router templates - you basically go directly to the shape you want with no 'middle man'. I use solid wood on it all the time, especially for joinery. Compared to the pantorouter ( I don't have one) - the CNC has an extremely delicate touch. With a vertical attachment you can make very delicate and unusual tenons and mortises. In fact I'd be so bold as to say the CNC is as useful as a tablesaw, it really can become a central tool with almost infinite multi-purposes.

[@truckguy6666]

I find that hard to believe -- but being as that woodworking is such a vast industry/hobby, I am sure there are situations/setups/shops where this is true. So Ill let it slide :)

[@amconsole]

This is a reach. No, it can't replace a table saw. For one - most furniture consists of various size rectangles. A CNC is terribly inefficient for cutting rectangles out of a sheet. It can help with joinery, but only in large volumes of repeated parts. Place a bookshelf sidewall, against the stopblocks, run Your gcode and get all the holes and nests for fasteners and shelfpins done quickly and repeatably. But if it's just two bookshelfs, then a simple hole pattern jig (like the LR 32 by FESTOOL) is going to do the job so much quicker and be as accurate and repeatable. Takes up less space, too and costs a fraction of a CNC. Even for joinery in the ends of workpieces, a CNC using vertical attachment is just not quick enough. In rare cases where You need multiple holes of different geometry, maybe. I've done large batches of parts very quickly and accurately using a Domino mortiser, each board end taking mere seconds to do, even for large volumes, batches of >100, I still don't see how fixing the board to the CNC machine and running the gcode would be quicker than using a domino. If I needed 100 shelves with various geometry holes, I'd still probably use a multi spindle panel drill table for that with a pneumatic part holder (like the Maggi machines that can index and drill 30 tools in one press), much quicker than fixing each part to the CNC and having the machine drill each hole one by one. Again, at a fraction of the CNC machine cost. Furniture making for profit is all about efficiency and a CNC is just not for most types of rectangle workpieces, You can argue that it can do both the holes for fasteners and the coutting out of perimeter in one gcode, and it can, but You rarely save time that way. CNC has it's use, for sure, but it's no replacement for a dedicated tools.

[@LeRouxBodenstein]

​@@amconsole Read it again - he said as useful as a table saw, not can replace a table saw

[@bushman4124]

but you forget the time, setup pre time on the computer and than the los of materials, or you must have a big 5 axel machine than you might be right, but with the smaller type of machines nah... and that is the point he tries to make and than he talked to about using routers like makita that is very hard on them if used like this. But i am glad it works for you, for me these arguments are a good reason to do without, i bought once a 3018 pro to tryout, but i never got it working right and it tooks forever to cut things and you had to stay on top.

[@jamescampbell6566]

I enjoy learning from your videos. Thanks for all the effort.

[@selkywaters]

We really appreciate your effort to bring this to us! It really really opened up my understanding of the differences between the two methods as well as helping me to understand the benefits of a bandsaw that i, until now, didn't realize.

[@69dblcab]

Matthias Great video. THANK YOU for sharing this. I enjoyed it.

[@sentry4944]

For hobbyists, a CNC machine is not necessary. However, I ran a cabinet shop for an assembly line RV company and we extensively used a 3 axis 4x8 CNC to cut plywood for all the cabinets and other things. For plywoods, we cut everything from 3/4" hardwood veneer plywood to 5/8" birch to 1/4" panel. I also designed and cut ornate hardwood features for mirrors, lights, etc. The CNC had a vacuum table that allowed us to use the full 4x8 sheet without anchors or anything like that. There was a sacrificial 4x8 sheet of MDF that sat on the table and then the plywood to be cut sat on top if it and was pulled down with the vacuum. Our depth cuts would go 1/16" through into the MDF and we had zero tear out. Using the CNC greatly increased output and lowered waste due to human error. Granted, we weren't cutting super complex shapes. The CAM software we used (which has slipped my mind for some reason) was great at optimizing sheet usage and reducing waste as well. So it's understandable that you don't use CNC, but you don't do conventional repeating things 8 hours a day. On top of that, using table saws and band saws is dangerous to operators (we didn't have Sawstops until right before I left) so the price of reattaching fingers compared to the price of a machine is comparable.

[@vesc1389]

Thanks for all the extra effort. I learned a few things, which is a lot more than most videos on other channels!

[@mikehogan1827]

Great video! Thanks for putting in the effort - it confirms a lot of what I was surmising.

[@jason_farns]

Thanks for recording this presentation! Great examples, interesting topic.

[@siprager]

You could always give it a try. Then you could make a follow up talk "Why I do use CNC". If the CNC frame is insufficiently stiff for the router forces, you can always use it as a large pen plotter or laser cutter to mark wood for cutting. I am in the process of converting my old 3d printer to a really large form factor pen plotter, with a 3x3 ft bed. I plan to use it as a general purpose crafting tool to draw things - text on posters, templates on paper, cut lines on plywood and dotted cut lines on fabric.

[@GlassImpressions]

Ufda, there is so much to unpack here. There are a couple of valid points, but there are also many unexperienced points about a CNC. They are excellent tools.

[@thejakyl1369]

I noticed that too. he speaks as though he knows the pros and cons, but in reality his lack of CNC knowledge shows through here. There are real cons to a CNC, most of which he never mentions here. As far as the pros, he simply has no clue how CNC enhances traditional woodworking in nearly every way, and allows options that are impossible otherwise.

[@tom_hutchinson]

I appreciate you recording this, cheers

[@kstarler]

This video is great! Especially with the paper template explanation at 10:00, it really does show something that I've tried to incorporate into my own ethos as a software developer; newer/bigger does not mean better. Also, the quick way of doing things often leads to difficulties down the road, especially when it comes to bug fixing or adding new features.

[@wayneswonderarium]

Inheritance Machining did a great run-off between CNC and manual machining. The win is when you need /more/ parts. If you're building a 2nd or 3rd (of course this assumes you can walk away), then the re-cut is basically "free". But most one-offs, or even small batches, jigs are fine!

[@matthiaswandel]

well, once you milled out one and it didn't go wrong, walking away is less risky

[@FBWJX]

@@matthiaswandel once you have used a cnc for a few weeks or so it becomes evident what a risky cut that you need to watch is and something you can "walk away" from. Perhaps using the time to paint something or sand something close by...

[@steveggca]

Hi wayne, having an almost 30 year background with manufacturing around cnc machines, I have a differant perspective on that result. It's important to remember that the part made on the cnc mill was done by the shop owner and not by the normal programmer/machinist. The owner stated that had the the other gentleman done the programming, setup and operating, the result would have been somewhat faster .

[@Mhakeman]

Thanks for posting. Loved every minute. You truly gave this a lot of thought and I really enjoy your perspective!

[@aaronblackford981]

Totally can’t believe you did this same video in “English” and “German”. Can’t say impressed as much as I have watched you for a bit of time now and now I understand the connections that I should have just gotten before. Doesn’t take anything away from you or channel or design know how. So happy to understand even more in many ways

[@TKC_]

The milling machine device you built makes me realize how fortunate I am to live near an industrial hub. With some persistence one can obtain a second hand manual milling machine with a high speed head for less than the cost a good chop saw. I retrofit mine with a digital readout which you basically reinvented for yours. The hole pattern implementation is remarkably similar to professional ones.

[@lwoodt1]

Thank you for the English version as well.

[@Robonza]

This is why laser cutters are so good. No material waste, no noise, no clamping. ability to mark with out cutting is useful. Somethings it cant do but that's where we have fun using the older tools. The laser cutter is great for make templates for manual cutting too.

[@daveydacusguitars9033]

I built myself a cnc I had intended to use to help me make guitars. The machine works. You can load G code and spits out things. Sometimes they are mangled things that look nothing like they were inteded.... but it spits them out haha But really I enjoyed the process of building it and solving the problems of that process etc... But I am not likely to use it to help me build guitars in the near future. The design process is so complex for something like a guitar, simply learning the design programs out there is such a daunting task. There are literally what amounts to a college courses on the design programs... What I ended up doing was basically finding free plans online and modifying them. I made a couple guitars with it. With considerable cleaning up by hand after the router. I've spent loads on bits that it's broken. I've spent loads on routers/spindles trying to improve it. Rebuilt the z axis 3 times to try and improve rigidity. Mangled some REALLY nice wood with it and turned it into firewood. Hard wood even species to species... you can't use the same program. Maple and mahogany and cherry all cut very differently with a router. If you load them all expecting the same result... it just doesn't work. I bought some wood, birdseye maple for necks. I was breaking it down for storage... had I cut it into even shapes I could mount into the cnc, I would have gotten 8 necks from it. Nesting the necks together and using other construction methods I got 13 neck blanks out of it. What the cnc would be really good for is starting like a sign making doo-dad company. If one wanted to spend hours using a v bit to carve cute signs. Then finishing them. Then booking a booth somewhere to sell them like at a festival or something, or listing them online and packing them to ship. Then fulfilling the orders once they shipped. I think a lot of people see CNC as an "easy way" to do a lot of things. And I suppose it can be if you build the skill set for it. But over all it's just been more trouble than it's been worth for me. Although like I said, I did enjoy the process of problem solving, and it was extremely gratifying the first time I gave the thing commands and it listened to me! It was definitely more fun making the cnc than it has been trying to get it to do what I want.

[@gorak9000]

The problem with selling signs or doo-dads at festivals is there's already people doing exactly that - you go to these festivals, and it's just booth after booth of imported trinkets that have been laser engraved (or maybe they get them already laser engraved direct from cn??). Almost no one is making anything different than you can get from 3 other people in different booths at the same festival. The market is already completely saturated

[@daveydacusguitars9033]

@gorak9000 yeah I brought it up mainly to outline the shear amount of work that even goes into a business like that to make it successful. Sort of pointing out that people seem to think they spend some money, load some stock in a cnc, push a button, and it magically doubles or triples their investment. In truth, it is WAY more involved than that, and success is not guaranteed due to a lot of the reasons you outlined. Not only that, but also quality level of the signs and trinkets has to be good to sell. And that's not as easy as people seem to think it is either. My comment reads like I think it's a good idea. But I really meant for it to make people think about the work that goes into such a business. Early on it was a legitimate small business opportunity/side hustle. But these days I just don't see it as being worth it.

[@MatchaMakesThings]

CNC is REALLY good, at what it does. A hobbyist can certainly get one and use it to its fullest. I enjoy the take of being more critical of if people need one vs just falling into the new shiny tool.

[@imqqmi]

CNC is indeed a time sink, though woodworking is too. For the typical parts you do CNC doesn't seem to make sense. CNC really comes into its own for the things that are hard to do any other way like engraving, 3D shaping with a ballnose cutter, accurate slotting so you can insert pieces vertically, you can get touch probes to scan an object. I use it also to shape solid wood, flatten it etc. I can fit pretty big chunks of wood on it (build space is 1500x750x200mm). I can also mount pieces vertically on the front of the machine for tenons. You're right about needing more material for keeping parts from flying off or breaking bits in the process. I did photograph wood and put it in fusion 360 to model and place pieces precisely around defects. It's doable but time consuming as you need to scale and fix pin cushion distortion etc from the camera (I do that in photoshop or Lightroom depending on camera, ie phone or dslr). Learing CAM is indeed a hefty time investment but can pay dividends if you use it a lot. Vectrix is easier to learn and quicker to make toolpaths with but fusion 360 allows for more complex shapes and setups. I also use my CNC to machine aluminium and occasionally mild steel. It's messy, loud, and tools wear very quickly with a spindle running at 12000+ rpms. Metal is stronger and parts can be made smaller than something comparable to wood. I've built a 3D printer and my current CNC with my old CNC which was a weak extrusion type machine from Aliexpress. I think the thing I like best is to build those kinds of machines :) And design and build loudspeakers of course. Making waveguides etc. And of course the 500+ holes with 50mm spacing drilled and tapped into the 20mm thick aluminium CNC bed. I've machined a zero clearance insert for my band saw out of aluminium. I've also experimented with machining foam, to shape them to fit tools, or an oddly shaped cushion. The tear out can be controlled by having the proper bit and speeds and feeds for the type and softness of the wood. Look at some of Marius Hornberger videos where he makes pretty clean cuts that barely need clean up. Looking forward to your CNC build and if it tickles that engineering itch :)

[@dirkpuhlmann7321]

I really liked the video and the basic idea behind it: let the task dictate the tool not the other way around. I am guilty of falling into that trap from time to time. So this was a very good reminder. By the way, hearing the wrap up in the end sent me quit some german vibes ;-). Everything has to be perfekt and done on a planned schedule :-). Keep up the good work, I really appreciate it.

[@TaylerMade]

thanks for giving the reverse perspective on cnc. i am now retired but made a living as a one man custom furniture shop. i have looked at cnc a couple of times to see if it would work for me. to be honest unless you have an industrial model for repetitive work i don't see the point (i did it and management at uni). the time if takes to set everything up i have already done it manually. i think the hobby market is an easy target for manufacturers, as you are dealing with people who have not been trained and do not realise they are suckers. on youtube i see so many amateur workshops that have more gear than i ever had. their workshops are like boats, holes in the ocean you throw money into.

[@Jochen666]

If you find the time to record your other talk as well, I would be very interested to hear a general talk on making tools from wood. Even though your KZbin audience might know some of your talking points already, I think since you didn't give a concise presentation of your thoughts, it'd still be really cool to watch.

[@matthewluedtke9653]

Love this video. His explanation makes a lot of sense for why hobby or artisan woodworkers may not want to use CNC. For someone with his skill level who can do just about anything using CNC would be a roundabout way of doing things. He may be underestimating commercial CNC; things have come a long way. When it comes to mass-manufacturing talented labor is expensive, materials and equipment are relatively cheap.

[@hasmukhvpatel4539]

you are 100% right.

[@dahrchan]

It's an interesting opinion and it's cool to see your approach. I don't feel it applies to the wide masses though as it really comes down to the operators ability and other tool capabilities. If you don't have other tools or the right size of tools, or the skill to use those tools then the alternative is not as simple. Not everyone can design and build their own tools. A CNC for many hobbyists is like the instant pot for cooking. It has specific use cases but can also be an all-rounder cooking tool. It's not necessarily faster or better for normal cooking, but if you don't have a stove or a variety of cookware for someone with limited resources and skill it can be a decent option. Some of the best things we use our CNC for is engraving lettering. The tool pathing can be done in less than 5 min and gives you a result impossible to replicate by hand.

[@tracybowling1156]

Very thought out and I can tell you've really given this a lot of thought.

[@maitajack]

This is one of best video. Many thanks.

[@woodtoknow1807]

Seeing this video, I can't help but think that a handheld CNC router like the shaper origin is the go between that you might want to give a try... I personally use one, and it's a fantastic machine, giving you the flexibility of a "normal" power tool in terms of laying out boards, clamping them, avoiding knots & defect ,... etc like you mentioned. It still gives you CNC precision though and allows you to adjust the speed of the cut according to the reaction of the material you are cutting... It's not a cheap machine, but it's way cheaper than a big CNC and it can handle very large projects. On the computer side of the workflow, things are also much simpler, since you don't handle depths of cuts in the programming but right on the machine (even though the program gives you the final depth of cut as set in your design). Exporting the CSV file is a 4 clicks (utilities --> plugin --> select face --> OK ) operation in Fusion, which is free as long as you are a hobbyist or a very small business... AND... it fits in a box, which - for small workshop owners like myself - is a very big advantage

[@matthiaswandel]

I do wonder about the accuracy of that thing for machine parts though. Is it going to be 1 mm accurate over a span of a meter?

[@woodtoknow1807]

​@@matthiaswandel Well, one of the last thing I did with it was an MFT style workshop table (approximately 2,3m x 80cm), and even though I can't take all the measurements right now (because there's already a lot of stuff on it...), I took some diagonal measurements on parts of it, and it's spot on. If you are really interested, I can clear it up and take actual measurements for you (least I can do after all the fun and content you already offered me... ;)). For smaller stuff (like 40cm), it's definitely super precise. I recently made crazy assemblies of curved shapes (white oak/walnut/padouk) for stools, and the pieces fitted just perfectly...

[@artswri]

Great video thanks loads

[@akaHarvesteR]

I've wanted one of those for ages. They're a little too expensive to justify for my hobby projects (for now), but it seems like the best happy-middle-ground solution, especially for extremely spatially-restricted cases like me. I've been gravitating towards a DIY router build lately, but I might just have a look at a shaper origin again 😊

[@woodtoknow1807]

It made quite a big hole in my pocket indeed, and since I don't currently sell anything, it's not like I could expect the return on investment to be financial, but it was nonetheless huge, because all the new possibilities really boosted my creativity (even to the point of a bit of a meltdown...) and changed the way I think about woodworking projects...

[@egemens]

All the problems you pointed out about cnc can be solved by creative thinking, cutting strategies, different endmills, fixtures and modifications to the machine. If your machine is not rigid, you make light passes after rough cutting. btw serrated roughcut endmills turn hardwood to butter. Also you can add more than one spindle to your machine, for example horizontally, just like your tennon machine. After getting cnc, i only use tablesaw and bandsaw to roughly cut stocks. I plane boards, square them up with cnc.

[@conorbrady1839]

Hey Matthias, great video. Really enjoyed your insight into the unnecessity of CNC routers. Thanks for spending the time to re-make your presentation, record and edit it. It was enjoyable to watch a long form video essay from you. Thanks for your effort! I hope you might do more videos like this in future. I'd definitely watch a remake of your other talk, even if it was just a livestream with no edits. Ive been watching your videos for a very long time so ive long understood your opinion on woodworking tools and equipment. But all the same it was nice to see a consise video that completely explained your take on CNC woodworking. I think the only time that CNC machining truly makes sense is if you are manufacturing at scale. Batching out operations to make dozens of parts. Do the cad and cam once and then just keep feeding in birch ply until you've fulfilled your orders. But for a home gamer, it just isn't necessary.

[@chrisgriffith1573]

I would use the CNC (thinking of your work flow that you just described) to cut and mark the templates, to be cut away by some other means, sort of like using a marking knife to score out the lines, using a very fine bit to hit on the hole placements, and gauge the edges precisely.

[@alspezial2747]

Jezt war mein lieblings Holz-youtuber mal in Deutschland, und ich verpass es natürlich.

[@dansw0rkshop]

You should build the CNC. One thing you didn't cover was V-carving signage. (Try doing that with your pantorouter.) I cut a bunch of classroom signage for a church recently and they turned out amazing. Solid wood, oak in fact. I would not have been able to do this as fast (or at all!!) with non-CNC methods. Choice of fonts, choice of sizes, choices of everything, very easy on a CNC with BlenderCAM. Also, on a boat building project a while back, I made "blind" puzzle joints on oak gunwales. This could have been done with a pantorouter, but the adjustments to make them fit right were absolutely trivial with CNC/toolpaths, and would have been a huge pain with a pantorouter template.

[@matthiaswandel]

For V-carving signage, my 3d pantograph is the tool, not the pantorouter. I have videos on that, from 2011.

[@amconsole]

@@matthiaswandel Well, no, not really. You can do it, but if You need 30 different signs, making templates for each is just not nearly as efficient as using a CNC. Your pantograph was a pain to set up for simple circle cutting. Needed long reach clamps and the template overlapped even a small jar lid circle, so You needed a cutout for the template from the bottom, in order for it to clear the circle being cut, and that's for a basic circle that can be set up on a CNC in less than a minute regardless of diameter. An ellipse? Also doable on a pantograph using a piece of string and two nails, but setting it up for accurate radius would take a lot of fiddling an different shape indexing pin etc. A pantograph is a cool mechanism and makes for entertaining video content, but building an accurate one is a very involved process even using Your detailed plans, work area is tiny and making accurate templates with grooves for the indexing pin to ride in, figuring out the scale and the placement for both workpiece and the template to do accurate work is not for most hobbyists. If You need to engrave thicker boards, You need a riser block for the pantograph arm and the template or it will not cut vertical. And if You want to just run the pantograph on a printout of a drawing instead of an actual template with a groove for the pin to sit in, there's a bigger risk of the router wandering and ruining Your piece. It's just not comparable to a CNC where You can slap the board onto the vacuum table and run as elaborate sign as You want with varying depth cuts and a profiled edge around the sign. When the complexity of a template to do this on a pantograph equals the piece being routed, You're just doing double work.

[@holzwerken]

Matthias - it was super-interesting seeing this live during "HolzWerken live" in Hamm - even in "schwaebisch" 🤩 ! Thanks for joining us there and all the inspiring talks! (For the german viewers: HolzWerken live will return next year to Landshut in Bavaria (7. - 8. November) - save the date!)

[@matthiaswandel]

Thanks for having me. Landshut would have been a much nicer location! Very close to relatives too.

[@helpgrowfood8372]

🔥❤🔥Thank you for putting the time into this!

[@3beltwesty]

Spent 4th of July weekend helping a Machine shop guy input the casting and machining D size drawings to build 500 CNC machined from solid block prototypes. I had all the Z heights colored in with different color crayons. The guy had his kid there and we gave extra paper drawings for him to color in The cnc work had about 8 different tooling stations. You moved the blocks to the right each operation. Flipped them over to do backsides too. Solid block a left. Finished part at right We machined in the draft angles so looked cast. Sandblast areas seen to look like a hard tooled casting. Machinist CAD guy had his own program on an Apple II and that was in 1983 for a floppy drive 3.5 inch. They paid him like 10k and we worked many days. That 10k was extra bonus on top of normal fee since insane work all hours to meet deadline. I got paid a several grand bonus too.

[@rickgibson7876]

I've thought about a CNC but at my age it wouldn't make much sense, I'll stick with my lathe for the most part. Did get a laser about a year ago it's fun to play with. Stuff I make gets used or given away as gifts, your video convinced me not to waste my money on a CNC.

[@ixamraxi]

I agree on most of your points, when we are talking about wood. Once you start getting into something like aluminum or harder, a cnc starts to become much more useful. Of course, you need a much stiffer frame, and a lot of hobby level cnc's are not great for aluminum without some level of tinkering to strengthen the frame.

[@roboman2444]

10:30 You can use the CNC to lightly score those markings into the top of the piece. Could even score it into a glued on paper layer, or just plane off the markings after if you want to remove the markings on the final part. May need to use a pointed bit for this. So that may require a tool change, but that won't be that big of a deal if you're doing a lot of parts at once.

[@chriscardwell3495]

Thank you - I guess many of us enjoy the physical interaction with the building materials - rather than an extra layer of cost, complexity and waste when using a specialised robot. Plus people will need to learn more skills for each aspect of the new process.

[@tladoux]

I really appreciate your argument. Thank you.

[@dscrive]

I didn't actually think I'd watch it all the way through, but I did. I'm not sure how long I've been following you, but I feel like I've heard every point you made previously, including the gear cutting competition haha hm, that reminds me; I really need to get those parts to fix my bandsaw

[@tektrixter]

I have a small desktop CNC. It is great for engraving, making small templates for detailed embellishments, and cutting some jigs.

[@kaden56]

Bandsaws are awesome, but as a daily designer and CNC router user the time between designing a part and cutting it on a CNC can be greatly reduced with experience. Also as long as you build good equipment, leaving the machine is a non issue. Also being able to enter the board anywhere versus always having to come from the edge with a bandsaw is SO nice. Both machines are necessary, but neither even comes close to replacing each other.

[@wasdaletimelapse7658]

Great video as usual Matthias. A new experience for you at least, even if you didn't get the attention you deserve. Here in the UK there has been a woodworking/woodturning show in North Yorkshire for years but it has certainly lost it's appeal over the last 5 years or so. I think due mainly to the cost of all the machinery and materials, but also there just aren't the young people coming into the hobby because schools don't teach practical skills due to health and safety issues, kids and sharp tools, that sort of thing. I would have thought you could do the woodworking circuit in the USA as it seems the be well attended. Thanks for sharing.

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

Thanks for making the extra effort to make an English version. BTW, I completely agree with you.

[@tomaszs2426]

yes please 😁 building a big machine from scratch has brought you the most views for a reason.... you're doing it right! without overpaying for parts, simple and fast 👍

[@Jonas_Keunecke]

Thanks, this was a great watch/listen

[@EMTdrummer]

Thanks for doing the english... loved it!

[@guillaumedeshors8313]

Love the twist in the end ! Way I see it, CNC becomes very useful if you make series. Once it's been tested a few times you even can let it do its thing and you really save time. Or if you do experimental complex shapes like franck howart ! Otherwise I mostly agree with you.

[@taylorwilson496]

Excellent information!

[@NicoSmets]

That was a great case for your workflow. Thank you for sharing.

[@Volte6]

Good talk, and I understand the pov for this talk was specifically how cnc pertains to your workload.... but it does consider antiquated ideas of cnc such as full length cuts and doesn't consider 3d profiles or complex topology. Additionally CNC has a huge benefit of repeatability with precision, and especially allows you to retain your sanity during repetition. Soft metals are a lot easier to cut out shapes from too over feeding I to a bandsaw... I wouldn't envy anyone hand feeding brass. Router templates can help cover some of it but there is definitely something pleasing about sliding another piece of stock into place (possibly onto a jig) and letting it take over. It's actually a very pleasing process IMO...

[@wirosk2916]

How about a light weighted frame/gantry with laser that only mark/outline your CAD-designed parts, then you will be able to use hand tools powered or not, to cut out and sand your parts. Somewhat "best of both worlds" theme.

[@matthiaswandel]

Basically a laser engraver? Thought about it, but paper templates is just so much easier. Don't have to worry about if its positioned right, no smoke, and no gadget to buy and have a space for.

[@amconsole]

@@matthiaswandel I've watched laser engravers go from pretty useless in a wood shop to very useful indeed. The newer ones cut through 20mm thick oak leaving a pretty clean edge, no rough charring, and are pretty fast and safe, too. No problem cutting thick plywood. They can cut parts out of long boards too as some have a passthrough slot and a conveyor belt. This allows to make router templates fast and precise. The accuracy is very good for pressfitting ball bearings, bushings, threaded inserts into precise spots as the laser machine does not need the same stiffness as a CNC to be accurate. Very little material is wasted as You can cut right up to edges, nest parts tightly on a sheet and use oddly shaped offcuts. Inside corner edges are sharp and it can alternate between cutting and deep engraving to make a recessed nest for hex nut flush with the surface and engrave accurate markings on the template for alignment. These things would be way more complicated to do with handtools, sometimes even impossible. It's not that useful for furniture making as such, but for template making and home built mechanisms lasers are probably more useful than CNCs. I've considered buying a CNC many times over the years and have not done so for mostly the same reasons You brought up, but a laser engraver does not have many of the drawbacks of a CNC. There's little to no cleanup and dust (modern laser machines are enclosed and smoke can be extracted and filtered through a charcoal filter box or vented outside), they are not loud at all. Don't require router bits that go dull and break. Use very little energy. Have built in fire safety systems. And don't require much fiddling and fine tuning once the initial setup and material tests are done. And it allows for efficient use of material for the frugal among us as You can pack the parts much more tightly than on a CNC or manual paper templates. And You can use small odd shaped offcuts same as You would with paper templates. But the main advantage is speed. I would bet cutting that very same gear would be much faster on a laser cutter, requiring very little setup in LightBurn. Less time than printing the templates on paper and gluing them to plywood, then cutting on a bandsaw. And that's for a gear that probably does not need much sneaking up to the line on a belt sander.

[@josephpotterf9459]

Seven words or more for the algorithm Thanks love your work

[@ikbendusan]

using a cnc machine switches the focus of the manufacturing process to parameter based control; instead of going by what feels right, you're going by what the numbers say is right. this also allows you to tightly control the outcome with little variance, even for different parts, given you're using the same material. in my case i also find it easier to control the outcome for other reasons; i might mess something up because i made an brain error halfway through the process due to a dimension that i interpreted incorrectly, while doing it with a cnc machine gives me time to look at the cam, the simulations etc., but these are personal problems. it also makes a lot more sense to have a cnc machine for metal machining (which you already mention in the comments) given that a manual version of the process probably involves the same machines, but they're automated instead of manual

[@joethompson11]

Always thinking maybe I should get a little CNC but this is really solidifying in me that my little bandsaw is just fine. I definitely need to get better at the finessing cuts that you're so good at; my counter I made from your plans could definitely do with some fine tuning!

[@sevenismy]

Very good points. Maybe you could use the cnc with a dragging knife to mark the wood and get crisp edges without tear out (not sure about the tear out), also not sure if the dragging knife will have issues with the grain direction. But maybe a fine marker would be working good enough. But you have the workflow out with big print and anyone with a printer can copy you, so it probably does not make sense too.

[@Pizzapinedale]

I agree. Recently, I built an easel out of some cheap plywood, modeling and nesting the individual parts on Fusion. Because I didn't need to worry about tear-out, I just ended up minimizing the spacing to the kerf of my table saw blade, then cutting out rectangles, rounding out edges on the band saw, then laying out holes for dowels and fasteners. Just as good, and I didn't have to spend $2000+!

[@partypooper2591]

Thanks for sharing this video! I've recently gotten into laser engraving which is kinda similar to CNC if you squint a bit, and I've been wondering if it would be worthwhile to invest in a CNC system, but after your remarks, I think I'll leave that alone.

[@thefatmoop]

Cnc is a critical and powerful tool. You can certainly convince yourself it's not worth it - but it is in many applications, especially at volume and repeatability.

[@Kruglord]

Yeah, CNC is unbeatable for production parts. But I think for the hobbyist, who typically make just one of anything they're making, his points are valid.

[@thejakyl1369]

Agreed. I made a hundred excuses to not get one, then had an opportunity financially to get a Shapeoko Pro. I have never looked back. When you learn how to combine CNC use with proper woodworking, you can make items that are impossible to do any other way. Its like trying to talk yourself out of getting a table saw and just using a track saw. yeah, it works, but you are limiting yourself a great deal by doing so.

[@AWoodworkersLife]

@@thejakyl1369 what is a shapeoko Cnc?

[@MrMeheheh]

Oh I also used a CNC to cut an 8 foot shim out of solid wood once. That was a 1x6 I think. There is probably some way to cut it another way but I don't have anything besides a circular saw, miter saw and portable table saw

[@ares395]

Interesting. Changed my perspective quite a bit. I doubt I'll ever get a chance to have my own shop/ creative space (I mean, I doubt I'll ever actually OWN my own place instead of renting) but a bandsaw would probably be the first tool I'd look into buying. There's versatility in simplicity and limitations breed creativity. It's a dream to be a maker but life... gets in a way to say the least. Thank you for the talk. Decided to subscribe. Oh and I'll look into that program that splits projects into pages, some time ago I was looking exactly for this and it was a pain to cut and line up things.

[@TheVisidor]

I hope this goes viral and you can come to Germany again. I’m sad I missed you, would have loved to attend.

[@fenvesik]

While I agree with a lot of points you made. Having built multiple CNC machines I have struggled with some of the stuff you mentioned. But there are some arguments where your lack of experience shows. If you want your cnc to be a workhorse, you need to treat it as such. Not like the examples you showed. It can be safe and you can walk away to do other things, you can use all 3 axes not just 2.5, you can be creative with fixturing and maximize material use... But as a lot of the comments have mentioned, that is rarely worth the hassle for a one off piece. Nesting parts, repetitive work, repeatability. That's what it's about. I'm looking forward to following your cnc build, I hope you'll get to it some day!

[@BryanHoward]

The many criticisms of CNCs focus on cheap desktop models, which are kinda crap. However, there are options like the PrintNC which is a much more capable machine. Material waste and part separation can be minimized by securing parts with tape and super glue. Then you can put parts with slightly larger separation than the endmill you’re using. Cutting beveled teeth on a CNC, especially with a 3-axis machine, is more effective using a parallel or other 3D operations rather than simple slotting with stepping if you're doing it in wood.

[@sapelesteve]

Very interesting video Matthias! I totally agree with you about the CNC machine. 👍👍

[@amiddled]

The free version of Fusion will generate the tool paths for those gears. Theres a learning curve to the CAM tools for sure, granted. My main issue is time and waste of materials with my CNC. Setup often requires lengthy test runs, burning through stock, which I find a huge issue. It means complexity level has to be high to justify it. I have all the recent stiffing and stepper motor upgades for my XCarve now, and its actually a fairly capable machine with wood and plastic at sensible speeds and depths of cut. Only upgrade left to do is switching to an air cooled spindle over the Makita trim router, which will help with noise and longevity.

[@eegaugh]

Most illuminating - thanks! I wonder if there is a case for "roughing" out on the bandsaw and finishing on CNC (about which I know nothing).

[@matthiaswandel]

If you go thru the trouble of CNC, just use the CNC.

[@neonistic]

Maybe make a CNC drawing machine so you can draw your plans directly onto the wood instead of printing it out? And you could use a projector to layout the pieces to minimize waste. I don't know if it would save time but since you don't have to worry about the z axis (as much) you could theoretically leave it and do something else. Just a thought.

[@matthiaswandel]

I like paper -- no stress about is it positioned right cause I can see exactly where it goes when it goes on there

[@FBWJX]

@@matthiaswandel vinyl plotters will draw on paper with a pen...

[@amconsole]

@@matthiaswandel I have used your Bigprint program and it does the job just fine, but I would like to not have to scrape and sand the paper off after cutting out the part. I'd imagine a finetip pen drawing directly on the piece would save some time printing, gluing, aligning the paper sheets and then cleaning them off after cutting. Not a bad use case.

[@ElectricGears]

Building your own CNC machine with those part Vevor sent you would be a very deep rabbit hole which, as you say, probably wouldn't be all the at useful. However, you might want to look for places where a 1 axis CNC machine would be useful. If I did more wood working, one of the thing I would want is to recreate your table saw box joint jig, but with an Arduino controller. No G code, just an LCD and a few buttons where I would enter the tab/blade thickness and glue clearance and it would calculate the steps. Being able to dial in exact heights of a table-mounted router would be pretty neat too. (I'd have a metal block on a wire that I would place on the table above the hole and one button would automatically raise the router until he bit touched the setting block completing a circuit to set the zero position).

[@bushman4124]

You gave me a new perspective on a cnc , and broke the urge to buy one. i keep doing it like you making templates sawe it out and use a trimrouter to finesh the parts. i looked in that aluminium pan router, but that is also out my budget do you still sell the plans for the wooden one?. it is true time saver on cutting tenons i use my side frees for mortis and i can do the tenons as well but that takes a lot of time. i wish i had your brain i am terrible at cad or types of programs my ptsd has no patiences for that sadly. 15 min on a pc is as long i can these days.

[@martinlouden9005]

I think there is a very fine line between making something and assembling a kit when a CNC is used.

[@kedrick113]

12:30 Yes you can, In all of the CNC controls I Have Used there is what is called tool geometry offsets so if you program it correctly you can do exactly what you are explaining by lying to the machine telling it that the tool is a different diameter or set to a different z value to make it cut deeper

[@jeklann]

While I do agree with the general conclusion that the typical work you do is probably faster and less material waste on other machines, I think some of your arguments in the beginning of the video is valid only for low quality machines or user errors. For me the repeatability is one thing that makes the cnc worth using. Making many identical parts, or drilling holes with precision for example. Another use case I often have is to make pockets to some specific dimension (i.e. not cutting all the way through). That is often hard to do with any precision with other tools. When it comes to software and time-efficiency, its largely a matter of finding a process that you know and trust. When you have experience, it will be faster, as anything else. If you do get around to making a cnc, I would recommend the software Estlcam. I think it's probably the type of cam tool that you would like :)

[@IlhanNegis]

building cnc? right on time, linux just released realtime in kernel. i really admire and learn from your approach especially when it comes to rnd, rapid prototyping, one off integrations.

[@perrybrown4985]

For edge drilling, I just throw a drilling template into the CNC job so it pops out for free. And... you forgot to mention how you cut complex internal shapes with the bandsaw 😮. But all said and done the CNC is just another tool. It costs money and takes up space however, once you have it, you find it more useful than you originally thought. Finally, it will be excellent for making panto-router templates!

[@guillaumevincent716]

Hi. I must admit that this video is quite enlightning to me. I was holding on starting my project because my cnc is not operationnal yet, but the approach of printing the template is very appealing. what type or model of printer do you use ?

[@MrMeheheh]

I have used solid wood on a CNC router a number of times. I made a lovely rose cutout that was 3d and a map of a place as well as some other stuff to hand on the wall. This was like 1x12 or something.