Why is it so HARD to Improve in Platform Fighters?

[@grantmnelson]

I’m diamond in rivals 2 with like 100 hours in this game, and a highish level ultimate player (good enough to win locals, not good enough to win regionals) with probably 5000 hours in that game. I think what you’re missing is how Analog platform fighters are. In traditional fighters, you essentially have to worry about maybe 20 different options at any given time, and many of those options somewhat share a purpose and/or counterplay. In plat fighters, both you and them have INFINITE OPTIONS. I’m gonna use a couple of examples from your video to talk about what I mean- you mention in street fighter, when they’re jumping in, you know you need to clean up your anti airs. There’s a direct, single solution to the problem that they’re presenting. Platform fighters are different. Let’s look at the steve clip for example- when Steve is jumping with back air, there isn’t any single Right Answer. It autocancels out of a shorthop, so you can’t whiff punish. It’s safe on shield too, so you can’t dash shield it then punish out of shield. The best way to go about solving this problem is to look at it in terms of time and space- if Steve is using back air, it’s weakness in time is that it’s relatively slow, and its weakness in space is that it covers only one side of him, and only right next to him. Then, you need to look at how joker can punish those. In terms of timing, you have the option to hit him when there’s no hitbox on the way up, by using a rising aerial or some other preemptive antiair. In terms of space, as joker you do have moves that outrange him in your side b and neutral b. Alternatively, you could dash up and roll behind to get behind him and make the bair whiff, and then put pressure on with your plus frames. And this is just what I got to following my problem solving process- beyond this there’s another set of essentially infinite potential responses you could have to this situation, and this is only ONE CHARACTER spamming ONE MOVE. I think you can start to see just WHY getting better at platform fighters is so hard. The second thing you need to understand is that, because there are infinite options, platform fighters become a game of SITUATIONS. The more you learn about the game, the more situations you encounter, and the more solutions you come up with for those situations, the better you get. The improvement process in these games is so fundamentally iterative that it’s almost impossible to improve beyond focusing on and getting better at situations. So this is where the improvement loop comes in: 1: You need to RECOGNIZE a situation you don’t understand. This is where vod review will be helpful, although you can do this in game too. Plat fighters move fast enough that it can be very difficult to actively problem solve/recognize issues mid-game though. A good place to start in vod review is just looking at the places you died, and figuring out what you could have done differently to Not Die next time. 2: FIGURE OUT a solution to that situation, or a set of solutions. These don’t necessarily have to be the right answers, just try to break down the situation, find any weaknesses built into that situation, and do your best to come up with a way to abuse those weaknesses. 3: IMPLEMENT these solutions into your gameplay. You need to play vs people while focusing more on adding these things than you are on winning. It’s normal to lose more while in this stage, as long as you’re able to add what you came up with to your gameplay it doesn’t matter if you lose games now. You will have to consciously focus on adding these solutions to your gameplan at first, but eventually your brain with Get It and you will start using your new solutions on autopilot/without having to actively do anything beyond recognizing the situation. This is when you should go back to step one. Sorry for literally typing an essay LOL, when I started competing in ultimate I went 0-2 for 6 months straight, and that was when I already had like 1000 hours in the game; I’ve had to very consciously learn how to get better at these games to get where I am now. Feel free to shoot any questions you’ve got my way man, hmu on Twitter @ant_ssb and I’d love to help you better understand how to get better :)

[@Havokerino]

Essays are good!! You’re right tho sf6 like there’s a clear answer and these platform fighters got so many options but I should start just by learning a few. I’ll shoot you a follow on twitter if I have any questions thank you!!

[@punkypony5165]

As someone who plays both Traditional Fighters and Platform Fighters and have put in over 1000 hours in SF6 I think the major difference is the freedom of movement and speed in Rivals 2 compared to Street Fighter 6. I know some people complain about drive rush in SF6 but when it comes down to it it's a slower and more methodical game thatn a fast platform fighter like Rivals. Not to say that SF6 is "easier" they have different skill sets. But in SF6 I do notice that I have more time to think when compared to Rivals 2. In Rivals 2 I'm constantly schmooving and trying to plan ahead for my opponents moves and predict them which again is in SF6 but just at a faster rate. I don't know if I explained it well or if I'm even right but this is the description I came up with lol.

[@Cool30Comics]

As someone who's been playing smash for 10 years with hundreds of hours in Ultimate and still goes 1-2 in tournament...take ur time homie! 13 hours is barley a drop in the bucket in any fighting game, no need to be impatient. I'm talking this way since my experience with smash and sf6 has been the same way brother. In my 10 years I only started to improve 3 years ago when I stopped marathoning ranked and did 45 minute training routines and went to locals weekly. And who knows? Since your an online warrior, the good netcode of Rivals might be your opportunity to grow! Also, what's your training regimen? Mastering movement, keeping eyes on the opponents character, and knowing your win conditions give you much more headspace to adapt and assess the situation.

[@Havokerino]

for rivals 2 ive been really trying to focus on my movement right now because im new the whole wavedashing things i wanna make sure i have all of that fleshed out so before i play i just go into training and just practice for 15 minutes. maybe i gotta put more time than that....

[@ToTheStars65]

@@HavokerinoI would certainly try doing some stuff in training mode as like a regiment. Especially since you want to nail your movement, maybe something along the lines of 20 wavedashes in a row for each direction, then try like 20-30 ledgedashes in a row. might take a while your first few times, but after a week or so you might start doing it in like 30 minutes. from there everything this guy said is super sound advice, a lot of people can get relatively far not doing the things he said but you will never be truly competitive without being able to think while you play (knowing WHY you are doing the actions you are doing) good luck on your improvement!

[@ToTheStars65]

also, after watching the video a little bit, i think you would benefit from playing people who know plat fighters very well that you can also talk to on discord or something. I think especially in the ultimate clip with steve you kinda got smoked because you were swinging where he was instead of where he will be. a mid level player will probably immediately be able to help you understand some counterplay to what is hitting you, because despite how simple the answers seem, in plat fighters its so quick its hard to parse out an answer. sorry for long ass responses i just felt inspired to help out a little

[@Havokerino]

@@ToTheStars65 all good ill take any responses i read them all! appreiciate it!

[@drdepression4605]

I used to do reps with Zelda to learn lightning kick. Id go in the lab and wouldn't leave till I could do it 10 times on the ground and 10 times while they are full hopping and 10 while short hopping​@@Havokerino

[@nathanhirsch9641]

Holy I’ve never resonated more with a video in my life I’m also new to the fgc and played all the newer games and there’s something about these platform fighters that just doesn’t click man

[@Havokerino]

i feel you man something just doesnt click idk what it is idk how long it will take but maybe it takes more than my 1k hours on ultimate 😅

[@zenitsukamado8595]

I feel the comment and the vid so hard😂

[@SomeoneNooneTomatoes]

The thing about smash is that it’s like a separate state of matter from traditional fighting games. If I were to make a comparison trads are like solids everything does it thing in an expected and simple manner some rock some paper and scissors shenanigans. Smash and other platform fighters are like liquids, they’re a lot more flexible and have a lot more unique interactions. Smash isn’t a traditional fighter, going into your opponent and trying to string stuff on shield isn’t gonna work. Smash has a strong shield it’s not like in trad fighters where the blocker has to play around you it’s more like you have to play around the blocker. People spamming moves only feel comfortable spamming if they think you can’t punish it, the best way to deal with spam is to step away from their line of fire and be patient. If your character has a projectile use it. For example in that Steve vs joker clip you showed with the Steve spamming back air you mentioned hitting a perfect shield which is fine and would probably lead to big damage but there are safer more effective options. As a joker you have two projectiles neutral and side b and a meter building counter, using side b you could cause Steve to stop spamming and throw out a minecart or set up a wall since Steve wanted to set some space using back air he’d probably wall so he could mine from then on I’d just be rambling. Earlier I mentioned how smash is like a liquid it has an uncertainty that is showcased across its wide cast of characters with unique move sets. Liquids while alien to solids in how they act still follow their own rules the key is to know those rules or in smashes case be able to understand character objectives and play around them. TLDR: smash is hard cause the knowledge required to know what to do isn’t universal and requires a different skill set and a boat load of flexibility. PS: if you don’t know what you’re doing wrong ask why what your opponent is doing is working and think about what you have to get around it.

[@SomeoneNooneTomatoes]

Long ah ramble ain’t reading that John type comment.

[@CardboardBones]

I resonate with what you're saying about play fighters being more like liquid. Because they're based on physics and (generally) fast movement, there's a lot of chaos that can occur in any given match. While you can spend time slowly understanding the chaos and how to pick apart your opponents, I think you can also be rewarded for playing more by instinct and emotion. Overtime, you'll improve by *knowing* how to beat certain options, but there's a big part of these games that is all about feeling (which is why I think a lot of competitive players appreciate it when a plat fighters simply feels good to move in)

[@Havokerino]

​@@SomeoneNooneTomatoes dont worry i read the long ah ramble 😁 smash is very crazy is most definitely a liquid

[@sunshinevg2640]

I went to melee tournaments for almost ten years and I feel you hard here, I think you are right that the fundamentals are hard to grasp, to speak vaguely because there is SO much more micro it can either obscure the macro or just overwhelm your mental load. I personally think phrigid made the best videos that can help give you some language to approach these kind of games through, theirs are for melee but it effectively all applies anyways

[@Havokerino]

I’ll have too look into it! There’s is so many thing to be looking out for it’s insane

[@Calebanton]

Yo, I’d say a really good thing to do is making sure you’re hit falling almost all of your aerials as ranno. Another thing I’d make sure you’re doing is spending at least 1/2 to a third of your time in training mode. One thing I like to do is watch top players and if they do any movement option or combo, combo of moves, or anything that you can’t consistently replicate, grind that out until it becomes muscle memory. You also only have 20 hours, so ofc, it’s gonna be difficult. The one thing that you can improve the quickest is tech skill and getting good muscle memory. Any combo, movement option, etc. It will help so much

[@burpinator1]

I feel this but my logic as to why it's so hard is cause Trad Fighters have this thing where you press a button and the action happens. BUT Platform fighters the speed/quickness of button or control stick flicks, and just the concept of doing a soft or hard input of a direction for purposeful walk or dashing. It's a separate set of skills to be able to micro manage JUST MOVEMENT. Plus Trad fighters don't have to think about fast falling every aerial, They just up forward and that's your whole jump. Plat fighters gotta worry about soo many nitty gritty things in it's physics. Another difference is Trad Fighters typically have moves that are consistent (Press attack and attack hits opponent Just have to worry about timing/weight), Plat fighters have inconsistent moves (Usually multihits and also have to worry about DI, SDI, weight, spacing) Biggest example being falling out of Samus or Captain Falcon's Up Smash where they hit the initial hits but not the killing hurtbox.

[@Havokerino]

so many variables in plat fighters forsure its actually insane

[@--Nathan--]

Interesting, I somewhat relate to what your saying in this video. Best of luck to you on improving in Rivals 2.

[@kenjiellison5080]

Ultimate to Rivals is a big jump in tech skill as Ultimate had a large buffer window for inputs that Rivals has but in a different sense. A lot of people are transferring over from Melee or Rivals 1 so they have a base foundation for tech skill that you may be coming to the game late on. Def lab a lot in training mode and have fun with it. This games skill ceiling is so high but entry point is also very wide :)!

[@Havokerino]

i got some catching up to do for sure then ill try my best!

[@treegod999]

If you want some melee player perspective, just focus on adding one thing to your game at a time. first thing should be a 0% grab combo to start to get people out of CC percentage. Then just keep building. Add an out of shield game. Add and edge guard sequence. Just stack one thing on top of the other until all your layer 1 gaps are filled. then you fill in layer 2 by learning mixups which are usually match up dependent. The more you play they more intuitive it becomes.

[@jacobcook5436]

i have a huge issue with this too, but i think a huge thing is the really think of what the other person is doing, how to counter it, and especially just be intentional with everything you do

[@Cazyman24]

right now I would love to be hardstuck gold. I recently dropped out of bronze which I didn't even know that was possible.

[@Havokerino]

its all good rank shouldn't matter just remember to make sure to have fun and learn!

[@Ferigore]

yeah even the fundamentals are tough to learn. and to put them to good use while being under pressure is realy difficult.

[@Masaru_kun]

Movement tech comes first, and then learning individual match ups can help, because not all characters can just do the same things in every match up. Once you have match ups down, then it becomes about the mix up game, and that's really when youre "playing" the game

[@yawbyss981]

Working on movement and spacing’s probably the best thing you could do. I know it’s easier said than done, but I know for me and a lot of other people, Rivals had to randomly click before we had to start improving. If spacing and movement work still isn’t helping you, I’d recommend think about your DI, SDI, and CC implementation while you play to get a better feel for it over time. It’ll feel unintuitive at first, but eventually you’ll develop a feel for it. I can’t stress enough how important floorhugging is if you want to punish your opponent. It’ll force them to deal with you in a more RPS fashion instead of just spacing on shield. Spot dodges and parries are great to learn to. If you’ve got a read on your opponent, they’re both free punishes. That’s just my two cents though. If you’re coming from a traditional fighter, I could see how all of this could be unintuitive, but if you try to force them into your gameplay, I guarantee you’ll feel so much better about how you’re doing

[@nubby3050]

I completely agree with this, I don’t understand they game states or what I’m doing wrong, I have over 900 hours in ultimate and it’s really fun but genuinely dont understand what I’m doing when I’m doing good. On the other hand, traditional fighting games make so much more sense to me, I know what I’m doing wrong and I understand what I can do to improve. I only have 250 hours in sf6 and I’m almost in master because it makes so much sense

[@Sk0rchy]

I feel exactly like this too, I know I'm improving at platform fighters but it still seems like they haven't fully clicked for me yet. Toph's video "aMSa's Theory on Melee's Neutral Game" was eye opening to me as someone who mostly plays in a very reactive way in traditional fighters

[@MonoFlax]

Im also stuck on silver in rivals 2 rn but one thing that ive been working on that u dont seem to be doing in the footage is hitfalling. Basically the moment your attack hits (during the hitlag freeze frames) if you press down you can instantly fast-fall, even if you’re doing a rising aerial. What that does is it allows you to do instant rising aerials and then fastfall to touch the ground and reset, vastly speeding up the combo game and improving what combos are possible. Hitstun seems to overall be extended in rivals 2 compared to ultimate so you can combo a lot more on reaction depending on where they’re going. Also abt ranno’s kit since im also maining him. He’s slow in the air so try to dash around on the ground a lot to abuse his fast ground speed, and def use needles more, its a great projectile, the poison can rack up dmg and even set up for combos!

[@Havokerino]

i never noticed ranno was so slow in the air until the comments in this video! but ive been trying to use his projectile a lot more as well i see how good it is now

[@kenjiropakwan1714]

I feel you. I'm a veteran at Tekken, but a disgraceful noob to platform fighters like Smash and Rivals. I think it's because these games had their own fundamentals completely different than fighting games like Tekken and Street Fighter. You have to train your muscle memory all over again. But honestly, I found platform fighting games are more fun to play 😅

[@CardboardBones]

Yeah, being physics based with lots of movement options, I feel that plat fighters benefit a lot from learning how to feel out the situation, rather than pure analysis of X beats Y. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't think through your options or that traditional fighters can't be played by instinct. I just think that plat fighters have so much more chaos due to the nature of the physics system and the strange "health" system.

[@Havokerino]

i find both super fun i think i had more fun in smash though because all my friends were playing it so we werre all grinding it. I love fighting games as a whole though so ill be playing them for a very long time!

[@_ERR_404_]

one of the things I really enjoy about platform fighters is that they are more analog, while traditional fighters are digital (more or less) and it brings the question from how do I punish to Do I take the risk and punish.

[@sahkovalo]

As a diamond in sf6 and bronze in Rivals 2 this video speaks to my soul

[@Havokerino]

dont worry we'll figure it out eventually... right?

[@Futuristic_Ninja]

The thing is even tho loxadoant (elephant) is the bottom tier, every character is unbelievable close when it comes to character evenness in power level. So don’t worry about it

[@O_RLY]

Ranno is very good if you are high mmr. Elephant is easy to play and is better at low mmr. Plat fighters aren't just rock paper scissors like trad fighters. It's a lot of trial and error. At the basic level, if you block an attack, try to shield grab. If they spaced it so your grab can't reach, try sh aerial or wd out of shield. If they grab/hit you before you can grab, try sidestep or parry. Eventually you try enough things that you figure out what works. It's hard but that's just how you learn.

[@MidnightSvshi]

Bro I have 94 hours in ROA 1 and I still feel like this

[@Havokerino]

man wished i played that game

[@demiurge2501]

i have 400 and im hardvstuck in silver because i have no idea how to use ledge/shield optimally lmaooooo

[@jacintodc1206]

don't worry about losing to lox or krag, the are very much a if you are on point you'l win and if you make 2 mistakes you'l eat shit. As far as getting better goes Id really recomend the Smash Conceptions series by Vermanubis, it goes mostly over theorical themes so itll translate to rivals just fine. other than that going into a discord and asking for vod review (going in with a specific question is way better) and asking for tips after playing somebody better then you will help you understand what you could work on, wich is mostly the hard part. Never accept the "Work on your fundies" default awnser because that is not specific at all and it wont help in getting you better. Have fun, this game is fire

[@Havokerino]

i dont know anyone that really good at rivals but vod review is super important so i can try to see what i do wrong as well

[@JollyRoger7114]

One thing i know that will help you movement wise is to look up the base stats of Ranno and the other characters. Ranno has the LOWEST air speed in the game so that should be a huge indicator of how you should prioritize ground movement over air movement with him and then look at the certain ways the pro Ranno players move in the air like tongue bubble and needle boosting. Another is being aware of what your opponent does when you are in certain positions relative to them like if you're in the air versus them on the ground do they try to shark you or do they wait for you to land? Going back to the base stats because i know Ranno has shitty air speed im more likely going to shark you as Maypul because I am much faster than you in the air. It's little things like this you build upon brick by brick and one day it all connects. And like everyone else has said in the comments yea this shit takes time and effort. Keep thinking about it and then trying it out and you'll improve

[@Havokerino]

never knew he had the lowest air speed! but yea ive been trying to watch the pros and see what they forsure gotta be the best way to learn what to do on a character. its gonna take time forsure!

[@Salamilover87]

Played smash for almost 4 years and still can't decide on a main (w music choice btw)

[@Havokerino]

the shouldve added hollow knight :( w music indeed

[@Bigbean2999]

I hate it when my opp enters the I Frame dimension and i can hit em for shit

[@mathclass2548]

I have like 500 hours in rivals 1 and almost 100 hours in rivals 2 I’m only plat. I’ll say work on your movement, work on your kill confirms and YOU WILL IMPROVE. But I was never good at ultimate too I also had 1k hours in that game so I relate to your struggle.

[@demiurge2501]

i have 500 roa1 and im hardstuck silver/gold (RIP shovel knight)

[@mathclass2548]

@ rip shovel knight

[@Havokerino]

i do find myself struggling to kill sometimes and im killing at like 160% so i def gotta work on that lmao

[@BlueKnight788]

it is hard to grasp but the moat important skill in plat fighting games is movement.

[@louihuang4804]

This video is so sick, I also feel like most of the people in the comments are probably worse than you in the same amount of hours played

[@Havokerino]

nah they can put up a fight im sure. thank you for thinkignthe video was sick!

[@IntermissionVA]

I haven't finished the video yet, however, I'm noticing something early on in your terminology that might point to the disconnect that you're feeling in your skill level in other games and your perceived skill level in platform fighters. the problem that you're running into seems to be that in Street fighter, you mention whiff punishes. in Tekken, you whiff punish, and in platform fighters you are generally safer when you are pre-empting an attack rather than punishing. and while this is not a hard and fast rule in any or all fighting games, because of the fact that aerials are all very difficult to punish, you can instead primarily focus on pre-empting opponents approaches and threatening space. and once you figured out their habits it's much easier to start whiff punishing and going for larger reads

[@IntermissionVA]

I know this isn't necessarily the best written comment, but I was typing it with my voice while I was doing other things. however I hope that you find it helpful, and if you need additional assistance or perhaps clarification on other things regarding platform fighters, I also have a lot of time spent in Smash ultimate and other platform fighters, I've also been playing Rivals of aether for like 10 years LOL

[@IntermissionVA]

please note that while I say that I've put a lot of time into these games, I also find myself being frustrated with my skill level lmao

[@Havokerino]

never thought of whiff punishing in these games like that but ive heard of focusing oin pre-emting so ill have to try it out!

[@Ferigore]

Im a Melee veteran and I also landed in Gold. When I pick Loxodont I mostly do it because I know people at this level will be easily baited and I dont have to work so hard to get a kill. That said I know that a lot of my friends and ladder people just beat the crap out of me if I dont pick a faster character. The heavies will become more managable and if not: Become one of them :D

[@Havokerino]

the darkside....

[@severanceflames2201]

as a gold player in R2 who plays silvers every so often, one thing I've noticed they tend to do in common is not be good at getting out of disadvantage. Usually I'll get like one hit, which leads into 40% or 50% almost every time because they just let me keep hitting them. Perhaps this is hurting you a bit.

[@Havokerino]

yea i never know what to do actualy i usually just try jumping out so i dont know if thats the optimal option

[@sameerjain4145]

Offline games give you much higher quality practice. Rollback is close but still less ROI for time spent

[@Havokerino]

i can only imagine i dont have anyone to pracitce offline with unfortunately

[@sameerjain4145]

@ for me i met people going to local tournaments. Theres a weekly in my city at a video game store. All the best players go

[@MrTheDecouverte]

i'm literally so bad at platform fighters that i've refused to play them completely to be honest

[@Havokerino]

theyre fun though! gotta give them another shot

[@Heizeuss]

I’m the exact opposite of you. Getting into elite smash is so easy. But I’m hard stuck in Diamond in SF6

[@Havokerino]

we gotta exchange tips. gaming tips

[@zenitsukamado8595]

Idk why but plattform fighters especialy rivals 2 making me so damn salty and im so bad in the games but i still somehow love them😂

[@Havokerino]

Those are fighting game for you 😭 they make me so salty too way more than something like league

[@jocelynfigueroa642]

From greninja to ranno

[@Havokerino]

love my frogs 🐸

[@austingoyne3039]

100% yes. I’m mediocre at fighting games in general but I’m _infinitely worse_ at platform fighters, it’s embarrassing. Im purple ranks in Tekken8, Diamond in SF6, STONE Rank in RoA2. No joke.

[@cjwerner2747]

Ultimate was first platform fighter. I lost hundreds and hundreds maybe thousands of games before i won one lol. Now i have every character in elite. Even ny worst one. With one sentence i can improve 99% of ppls Ultimate play. "Stop trying to punish everything, wait for your moment"

[@ckurtz]

My wifi has been so bad and it makes me not wanna play which is so sad cuz the game is so good

[@Havokerino]

is it spectrum?

[@lama..-]

im stone rank (255) after 50 hours of rivals 2. im not built for this -

[@littlebod6371]

I have something so similar, over a thousand hours in smash ultimate and can barely get elite smash, stuck at the top of gold and bottom of platinum in rivals 2 after 21 hours, and i cant even count the hours in melee and I get smoked by players way worse than me. I am trying to play rivals and melee at the same time, but rivals messes up my muscle memory because it has all of the same techniques just way easier. Any ideas from anyone to help me out a bit?

[@austingoyne3039]

I know it’s probably because Im dog water but is anyone else not having fun with RoA2? I usually love learning but this game is torture sometimes how every character is so slippery and even ON HIT you can get punished. I kinda hate it tbh… but then landing a spike offstage is one of the coolest feelings in fighting games so idk

[@14Blackspirit]

Look at a street fighter 6 game and now play it on 200% or 300% faster ... that is in my opinion platform fighters. It is the same only the speed is different.

[@v0nman]

Llod wrote a document on how Armada and other top players like himself approach learning and understanding the game in a rapid manner. I think it is really helpful for platform fighters. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGLCZaKleMSebdE . Tier list are silly :P especially at the mid level imo

[@Havokerino]

watched about 20 mins of this and wow making me think of the game differently. i could even apply this to my street fighter 6 gameplay. def gonna watch it all

[@bue7884]

1500 hours in ultimate and cant get into elite smash

[@Havokerino]

im right here with you brotha 😅

[@Lazycandle]

So silver is where most players are it’s the averages rank gold is above average and diamond is the 1%

[@peterpeter5035]

Hardstuck silver and gold is not bad for ROA2 rn because everyone playing are vets

[@standarsh2186]

Ranno is definitely not top tier for what it’s worth.

[@Havokerino]

dang really? hes seems super good once you know what your doing

[@henryangeles2413]

It’s not just you. These games require a lot of practice against try hards that always know more than you

[@toffeeisreal]

Me and u should run some games brotherrr i make content soon

[@Havokerino]

Whenever I’m always live on twitch!

[@mambo5431]

honestly i think this is just because of the game being really new, insane players are all low ranked and stuff hasnt levelled out yet. this is possibly why you fight people in the same rank as you and get absolutely destroyed, giving you the illusion that you suck ass in general

[@Havokerino]

that is very true i didn't think about that. also where is silksong

[@mambo5431]

@Havokerino sorry i was hungry i eated it

[@John-nk3ej]

If you haven't played melee you will lose to someone who has. Melee takes so much more skill than the other gamescombined. Thats probably why youre so bad .

[@shanewheeldon5076]

Learn Melee

[@braxtonjohnson2775]

nah rivals is far easier to learn on than melee, the benefit of melee tho is the 2 decades worth of community made instructional content

[@Havokerino]

i trained for a melee tournament with my friends once had the crustiest marth in north america

[@shanewheeldon5076]

Learning Melee will make you better at all platform fighters. It's like learning to drive a Ferrari will make driving a Civic ezpz

[@braxtonjohnson2775]

@@shanewheeldon5076 ur right but the effort required is too much to just try and get out of gold, and the rock lee method doesn’t work for everyone