Why are Platform Fighting games Failing?

[@lasercraft32]

The funny thing is... In my experience, a surprising number of "casual players" don't even know that you can shield, grab, or even dodge in Smash Bros.

[@deppo436]

I blame Smash's "How To Play" video where you can only watch it if you wait long enough on the title screen or view it in movies which is a literal small option in the vault menu. Even then, It gives a very surface level overview on demonstrating what each input does, not to mention that the icons used in the video is for a Gamecube controller which I'm confident 90% of Switch users most likely do not own, so it's already gonna be confusing to newcomers when trying to correlate each input with the right button on the Switch controller, or the pro controller for that matter.

[@FerinitheBloodHusky]

i didnt dodge for years cause i thought it was always better to attack

[@Chario_]

Plus the fact that most platform fighters actually *do* have those mechanics, and the ones that don't just so happen to be the just successful ones outside of Smash (RoA, MvS, Brawlhalla). It's almost as if the inclusion of these mechanics (or lack thereof) have little impact on the ultimate success of the game

[@carlosbraw6169]

Yeah, absolutely true

[@rainbowresorts]

most people i play smash with dont even know how to grab ledge

[@bugsisland3061]

I have no idea what you mean by shielding and grabs being seen as “useless” by competitive players. They are extremely important to competitive gameplay.

[@dexenationgracey1979]

For example, I've only seen chain grabbing done by competitive players.

[@Lira_orpheus]

I think the idea comes from how games tend to go for fast pace, highly aggressive games and shields could technically slow down the interaction, and with no shields, there's no need for grabs. The idea is ultimately wrong, but I could see a non-caring developer assuming that and never thinking about it twice.

[@chirnosans]

I wonder what fighting against melee puff would be like with no shields

[@persondoesstuff2188]

​@@Lira_orpheus has the developers not played literally ANY other fast paced fighting game? If they did, then they'd find out that blocking attacks and grabbing opponents adds on to the fast paced nature of the game I'm legitimately shocked that all of these other platform fighters don't have a shield or grab

[@kyallon1213]

I get what you’re saying with NASB and MVS, but i think it’s disingenuous to include rivals (or any plat fighter not built off of pre-existing IPs) in this kind of discussion. To suggest that it “failed” when it was able to get half a million sales, maintain a decently sized competitive scene and active modding community across 7 years, spawn multiple spin-offs to expand the IP, and raise over $1 million for rivals 2 is wild to me. It didn’t have the resources or the recognizability to appeal to a massive casual audience like smash bros did, so they chose to make and market the game to more competitively inclined players and build a brand from there, and they wouldn’t have been able to do that if it weren’t for the fact that the game is really damn good.

[@Rojo7500]

the reason why things like grabs and ledges were removed in rivals 1 was because of dan not wanting to animate them, not because of any competitive thing (and which also caused shields to be removed) ive never heard of any competitive players compain about grabs and sheild and ledges though. Also wavedash is usually simplified in games that have it like rivals (its just jump and dodge + angling the joystick in the direction you want to move it) i to like rivals of aether i gave them a lot of money

[@dinoman6481]

this is why I don't think a melee hd remake would make much sense. What would be the target audience of that? Only competitive melee players basically. A rerelease/port of melee in a collection of sorts or nintendo Switch online would suffice.

[@kyallon1213]

The answer is literally nobody. A remake or even addition as part of a collection would be the PAL version that competitive players don’t play on.

[@Yami_Soryu]

HD Melee released. It's just Rivals 2 ahahah 😭

[@Yami_Soryu]

Also a remake of Melee would suck, guarantee it wouldn't be the main version everyone plays and without all of the modded features that are commonly used

[@dinoman6481]

@Yami_Soryu I bet Nintendo would patch a lot of the common techs out of the game.

[@Pyrple]

Maybe because while the original platform fighter Smash Bros is made by a world class studio, lead by legendary designer Sakurai, and has tens of millions of dollars in funding from Nintendo, every single other platform fighter is made by a low tier AA or Indie company on a shoestring budget. And often on the behest of a bigger company who are blatantly trying to cash in and don't care about the quality of the product. Even Sony with PlayStation all stars tasked SuperBot, a developer who don't even have a Wikipedia page, to make a game with their icons. Why? Because they, like every other publisher who funds a platform fighter, are solely seeking to make a quick buck and to ride smash's coat tails, and have no intention on giving it the budget or development time needed to succeed. Imagine if Mortal Kombat was the only AAA 2D fighting game, and every single other fighting game was made by an indie developer. Or imagine if Call of Duty was the only first person shooter and every other FPS game was made by a AA company as a quick cash grab. That's what platform fighters are like.

[@mogusman3]

AA games are the worst because they don't have the funding of AAA games, and they don't have the passion of Indie games. No shade to the devs, but they were always set up for failure.

[@Orion_Mr.Starlight]

By all accounts black myth is an AA game and its certainly not a faliure

[@londonjackson8986]

@celestialwaffle1491 I disagree on the lack of passion with AA Games, unless you're specifically just referring to the Publishers & NOT the Developers! They're still plenty of AA Games that have clear passion put into them (mainly by the Developers), such as SpongeBob: The Cosmic Shake, TMNT Shredders' Revenge, Nickelodeon Kart Racers 3, etc

[@mogusman3]

@londonjackson8986 yeah, I was really thinking about the publishers mostly. I know any game dev would want their game to be good, so I never blame them for a bad game. I suppose you proved me wrong about this with some really good examples, which is fair. I was just thinking about how AA games have the same corporate meddling that AAA games do, but far less time, money, and resources. It's definitely possible to make a great game in those conditions, but it's also way easier for executives to mess everything up (thinking about that Avatar game last year lol)

[@uberculex]

@@Orion_Mr.Starlight Black Myth has the funding and scope of a AAA studio... Also Multiversus is pretty close to AAA status too.

[@sushyhacecosas]

good video, though i think rivals of aether kind of doesn't apply as much as the other platform fighters mentioned in this video. it has various side modes and character specific campaigns, a whole modding scene that already lets you go wild with characters and stages beyond a competitive mindset (for example there's a mod that lets you play tetris instead of controlling a character lol) and overall a roster with enough variety to make up for the lack of items or non competitively viable stages (idk why that'd be a problem btw, it's expensive and they're overall hated if they have too much hazards put into it) also, on an unrelated note, thoughts on rivals 2?

[@Shayminister]

the "no non competitive stages" argument doesn't even apply to rivals either since each base game stage has an aether mode with hazards and changed layouts

[@kyallon1213]

It also doesn’t have the recognizable IP to warrant a heavier focus on casual elements like non-competitive stages or items. Smash has so many items and stages because it has so many different options to reference, not because it makes the game more enjoyable

[@redhotdanger2394]

workshop characters go Brrrrrrrrr

[@KrispyKorpse]

As a rivals 1 modder, the alternative gamemodes people have made in the scene honestly can really help a lot will filling in for the games relatively bare bones options. I can also say that the back end code for that game is so bad that one of the devs took a year and a half to recode the entire cast just to work with the workshop 4. Rivals 2 is also so promising, and yet im still worried cause it doesn't have casual appeal cause they simply couldnt afford to develop it. I hope that their story mode ends up being real eventually.

[@mogusman3]

I'm so glad you never talked about monetization, because I'm sick of people blaming a game's downfall on that alone. Sure, it's not great to have a battle pass, but people can live with it if the game is good. The problem is, usually the game fundamentally isn't good, and that's what people should focus on.

[@RednekGamurz]

The competitive at the cost of fun section seems really misinformed. Not gonna mention Rivals, since you already bring that game up, but I'll mainly address everything based on the first 2 Nick Brawl games, and Multiversus. - Nick Brawl 1 and 2 both have grabs, in fact, Nick Brawl 1 even had universal air grabs and the ability to grab and throw back projectiles. Technically MVS also has grabs, though they're command grabs as part of a character's moveset, and not universal grabs like in Smash. - Both Nick Brawl games also have shields. - Both Nick Brawl games also have ledges. - Both Nick Brawl games also have items, though to be fair, Brawl 1 didn't have items in at launch, so that's an understandable mistake. - Rivals 1 lacked these 4 things mainly due to budget and game engine limitations, and not really because they're uncompetitive (except items). It's why Rivals 2 is adding in 3 of those 4 things (and even expanding on them a bit). It's also why Smash mods made to make the games more competitive like PM/P+ and HDR don't remove those mechanics either. - Again, shields and grabs aren't anti-competitive or useless. 99% of fighting games have some form of blocking and grab game. The mindgames of knowing when to block and when not to block because your know your opponent is about to go for a grab is a fundamental part of those games. - There are other mechanics that MVS has for defensive options. Rolls, spot dodging, air dodging, universal parries, and the movement in general just to name a few. I don't fully think you need a ton of defensive options to make a fun, more casual fighting game. Power Stone 1 and 2 are seen as pretty casual for the most part, and yet those games have no dodging or block mechanic. The only way to avoid attacks is to move out of the way, and they're great games that anyone can pick up and play. - I would honestly like if more platform fighters included items, but I get why not all of them do. Not only is it a feature that the crowd they're trying to cater to won't use often (if at all), but it takes away development time and resources away from something else. Keep in mind most dev teams for these platform fighters are far smaller than the Smash team, so it's a tough balancing act. - The stage segment really confused me. The Nick Brawl games have tons of stages of all kinds, and a lot of them aren't tourny legal. MVS stages can get pretty wacky, like the Town Hall stage having a hazard that can turn you into a dog, or the Scooby Doo stage with the breakable walls and floor traps. Rivals 1 might be where this opinion came from, but even in Rivals 1 all stages have a comp version, and an "Aether" version that have stage hazards. Rivals 1 basically did the hazard toggle before Ultimate did. - Nick Brawl just has an arcade mode, but 2 has a whole rougelite single player campaign mode and a boss rush mode. MVS has the Rifts mode, but that one's admittedly pretty repetitive, so I'll give you that one. - I agree that MVS movesets having cooldowns is bad, but for a different reason. They're trying to adapt attacks having cooldowns from MOBAs like LoL, but cooldowns work there, but in a fast-paced plat fighter, they feel clunky and cumbersome. MVS characters also have far fewer total moves in their movesets compared to Smash characters or other plat fighter characters, so while they might be more advanced in some ways, in other ways, they're more simple. They're weird. - I feel like the moveset cohesion vs references thing applies a lot more to the first Nick Brawl game compared to the 2nd. The first game's movesets are so bad, and while the sequel isn't perfect, I feel like they overall did a much better job in this regard. I find it weird how you enjoy Rivals so much, because it's kind of a counter argument to almost you entire point about how these games need to be more casual to succeed. Honestly I think the answer to why the Nick Brawl games and MVS failed are a bit different from each other. Nick Brawl 1 failed because it was barebones at launch and lacked a ton of polish. Nick Brawl 2 failed because of it's association with the first game, with people not wanting to buy into the hype a 2nd time, thinking the first game was a scam (especially since it got a sequel so soon after the first game). MVS is failing because it's not really for anyone. As a casual game, it doesn't have enough on offer, as a competitive game it's a complete joke, and as a consumer it's a complete scam due to the microtransactions.

[@londonjackson8986]

@RenekGarmurz Absolutely Spot On! Especially with your points on the Stage Segments & NASB1/NASB2...

[@Chario_]

Really appreciate you writing this. That second of the video really bugged me with how off the mark it was, which is a shame considering how well made the video is overall

[@kipper1668]

Christian: I wanted to mention the shields and grabs not being uncompretitive thing, you covered that well here as well as some other stuff I didn't consider/we didn't know about Good comment! This video is definitly well produced as a video, but most of the analysis feels off the mark

[@spudsbuchlaw]

While I get RoA being an indie game, thus limiting its scope, it being, effectively the only real game to compare to smash when it comes to successful platfighters, its...its not great for the genre if those are the only 2 options

[@CJdoesntlikehandles]

yeah im inclined to agree, casuals are the largest, quietest group in 90% of games with that said, multiversus rifts couldve totally succeeded in appealing to them if it wasnt such a boring gamemode (doesnt even get voice acting, not much unique gameplay, and a lot of said unique gameplay doesnt have anything to do with the actual gameplay) the rifts also had noticeably unbalanced difficulty on release but thats kinda fixed now as far as i know

[@rynnyryn93]

Making games appealing to casuals is much more expensive than just making a small, tight versus mode featuring a few characters. The most frustrating parts of these "platfighting genre is dying" videos is they never consider that these studios aren't choosing to exclude casuals but rather they just literally can't afford to attract them especially when the bar is smash brothers. Casual players like casts of 40+ characters, they like large campaigns, they like extra game modes, they like licensed characters, they like prestige and presentation and cutscenes and VOICE ACTING and they want it all for FREE if they can have it, and we have got to stop pretending that the decision to not add items isn't a scope/budget restriction. While RoA wasn't massively popular among casuals, having your indie fighter that has never been free consistently have 500 players online is more than most games get, so despite not being considered a smash competitor, I think it fills the niche it wanted to well and it seems like with the sequel they understand what's important to attract a casual audience. NASB is more like Rivals than Multiversus in that its budget was so small it made sense to focus on a single mode as well. But Multiversus' existence should be insulting because it had the budget these small games dream of, it has everything casual players like, but they forgot to make a video game. Casual players will buy and play your competitive game if it gives them reasons to like SF6 and Tekken 8 do, but Multiversus just exists to waste your time and charge you money not to and at the center of it all is a bare minimum versus mode that exists purely to show off your investment. They had everyone in the door and they managed to do it twice but squandered it and cleared the room twice because there's simply no video game in this crossover.

[@lasercraft32]

Simple... Smash Bros. is just so well made that the rest of them play like garbage in comparison... And when they aren't garbage because of low budget, they fly under the radar because they don't have iconic characters to hook people in (like Rivals of Aether, which has a roster mostly consisting of original characters). Although, Rivals of Aether has amazing mods that DO provide the game with those "iconic characters..." But come on, most people don't buy games _for_ the mods (unless it goes on sale of course... definitely not speaking from experience).

[@FriendsWeMade]

The real failing smash clones were the friends we made along the way

[@rufftaku275]

Goddamnit I love your user name lmao

[@-thejos]

Something that I want to add to the movest desing section (and to be more specific about MultiVersus) is that the characters in MV need a way to tell they players what they characters do. Maybe I'm just dumb, but as an Arya main in that game I spend literally weeks without noticing that with that character is more easy to kill if your hits land from behind. All these characters are full of passives and special habilities but the game doesnt make the efford to tell the player how they are used. You can have a super obvious and intuitive passive like Finn's who throws money after every attack and if you press S+down you discover a store where you can spend that money, but for every Finn theres a Wonder Woman or Agent Smith that have a special bar that probablly means something but you dont know how it exactly works, or you directly have an Arya or a Samurai Jack with passives that you can spend entire matches without knowing are there unless you go to the movement list and literally go to the bottom of it (Btw im not an native english speaker, I do my best with the clases I take, sorry if I wrote horribly wrong in this language)

[@jjhe3899]

You didn't write any wrong English at all, I was able to read and understand everything! :D

[@apexMX125]

I think they should make more crossover action and adventure video games just similar to Nicktoons Unite, Disney Infinity or LEGO Dimensions. Instead of Crossover Platform Fighters. It doesn't matter if they come with modern modes like Battle Royale, Open World, Crafting and Farming. (But optional farming while not mandatory to unlock many things)

[@londonjackson8986]

@apexMX125 I would be really inclined to agree... IF the examples you used were Really Good, Stood the Test of Time & didn't have their OWN bag of issues that makes the idea of bringing these types of games back questionable! - Lego Dimensions while admittedly the MOST Successful (& Best) One, didn't last beyond 2 - 3 years due to the overall fad & clear drawbacks it had with Toys-to-Life Genre! - Blue Tongue's Nicktoons Games (Gameplay-Wise) are either Worse, Low-Budget Versions of the already repetitive & monotonous X-Men Legends 1 & 2 and Marvel Ultimate Alliance (Unite! & Globs of Doom) or are Serviceable, But Pretty Basic Platformers that have ALL the Characters play the same (Battle for Volcano Island & Attack of the Toybots)! - And from what I've heard of Disney Infinity and what happened to it.... Yeah, I can't really blame Disney for going the (comparably) safer direction with their Games like SpeedStorm or Dreamlight Valley! Like, I'm not against another Action-Adventure Crossover Game being made (I like Travelers Tales' Lego Games, such as The Lego Movie Game for instance), but if you going to consider it, both the Developer AND the Publisher (I'm looking at you, GameMill & Outright Games) have to aim for higher than what we had in the past! Lest you get something like Funko Fusion, that while I've heard isn't outright bad (thankfully...), has gotten a reasonably mixed reception from critics...

[@tjh6678]

Dude, I'd kill for a return to crossover adventure games, maybe not in the mold of toys-to-life (that genre is all but dead & should prob stay that way), but moreso built like the TT Lego games, the Shrek 2 game, or as 2D beat-em-ups like Shredder's Revenge (not even a big Turtles fan, but that is a very fun, very pretty game with a buddy). Lemme tell ya, the things I'd do for a Cartoon Network crossover in the style of Shredder's Revenge...

[@apexMX125]

@@tjh6678 Talking of Beat Em Up games, You should know ONI from Halo Developer studios, her gameplay could be ideal for a crossover adventure game with characters who has some movesets similar to Super Smash Bros or MUGEN but in a 3D game.

[@ZeAvocado]

10:12 I recognized Grand Dad in the music. Certainly a SiIvagunner moment. Plus more content from them used throughout the video, Nice!

[@JoelTheParrot]

Fraymakers also has ledges it doesn't have items or hazards YET but it plans on adding them, it's early access

[@deppo436]

If you think a WB platform fighter is inconsistent, then a Disney platform fighter, as exciting as that sounds, would 10x worse imo. Though if you want a platform fighter with simpler and easier to controls, I'd say give Fraymakers a shot. It's control and movement design is nearly identical to Smashs layout. Though that shouldn't be a huge surprise since McLeodgaming its developer, were the ones behind Super Smash Flash 2. Ironically despite the current state of the game, I still find myself coming back to it more than MvS and that's purely because the controls and movesets are far easier to grasp. Fraynmakers however is still leaning towards that competitive market which can be seen in their stage layouts and the notable lack the casual content at the moment since it's in early access still. MvS may have creative movesets, but I am really not a huge fan of every character having chargeable moves on different attacks, be it neutrals or specials, or the fact that they have cool downs that sometimes will replace one move with an entirely different move altogether and goes as far as to give them different properties than the previous move.

[@aaaaagh-thegoat]

Also MVS relies too much of references for their movesets, and it doesn’t work. Like, why does Jack have an attack where he slashes a beetle robot in half instead of attacking normally? Why does the PPG have a phone attack? Why does joker have an inconsistent jab that uses three weapons?

[@spudsbuchlaw]

I have seen so many fan deaigned Smash movesets and they range from pretty good to EW. Not "Ew" as in its offensive, "Ew" as in "how could you have such little consideration for cohesion or actually feeling like your that character, and not just repeating random references to a character because MORE REFERENCES=MORE GOOD!!! It...a really bad way to design characters, like smearing an OC with every colour possible

[@Chario_]

While I agree with a lot of the points you make in this video, the part at 4:30 is just blatant misinformation. The vast majority of platform fighters have all of those mechanics, including: - Both NASB games - Fraymakers - Icons - Rushdown Revolt - Slap City - Rivals 2 The only platform fighters I can think of that *don't* include these are the first Rivals of Aether, Multiversus, and (as far as I'm aware) Brawlhalla, which also happen to be the three most successful platform fighters outside of Smash by a mile, so if anything the existing evidence points to the exact opposite of your point It's honestly kind of disappointing to see such a significant portion of an otherwise really well made video based off a point that was very clearly poorly researched. Hope you can do better going forward

[@realmedo180]

as a 2100 diamond player with nearly 400hrs in Brawlhalla, I love Brawlhalla. the movement system got me hooked I love how you can basically wave dash with dash jump fastfall. the game modes are very fun too my favorites are streetbrawl and morph.

[@GiGiTheCatjoy]

The removal of shields, ledges, and knockdown states in Rivals were specifically a result of Dan Fornace simply not wanting to animate all of those moves (back when it was only him developing the game). While Dan was a fan of competitive Smash, the lack of those gameplay elements was not a deliberate attempt to make the game more competitive.

[@MajorMimik]

You may have been late to the discussion, but this was genuinely one of the best videos I’ve seen on the failure of platforms fighters. You hit the nail on the head on all the notable problems these games face, all while in a mostly concise and dignified manner. In short, very great video man 👍

[@Net_15]

i love him but i disagree this video is very missinformed in many aspects no rivals doesnt remove grabs/shields for "competitive" it was due to animation difficulties and budget no the problem with stage design is not "they're too competitive", its the lack of attempts at inovative fun concepts that can work for both casual and comp. NASB and Multiversus both have competitive AND casual stages, even rivals does

[@newmallenium]

I'm glad that there's someone out there who shares the mindset that all the people who want a "Smash Killer" are just people who want Melee, but on modern consoles. A lot of people declare Brawl as the worst Smash game purely because it doesn't play like Melee, despite the beloved additions to the roster or fact that all the game modes from Melee are present or improved upon (i.e. Adventure mode becoming Subspace Emissary). I might be kicking a hornets nest with this comment, but if anyone thinks that Melee is the best Smash game, they're probably the kind of person who treats the roster as faceless functions like the devs of Marvel vs Capcom Infinite.

[@RB-qq1wu]

Nah the Smash Killer talk was actually from Mortal Kombat fans who want to add Fatalities to Smash smh

[@thenightwriter619]

I'd define myself as casual-competitive, I tend to prefer my smash rounds with no items, stages with minimal-to-no hazards, and I value highly a good gamefeel, that being said I don't really have interest in learning the "meta" or intensely training to be super good at the game, just enough that I understand what I'm doing and can enjoy a clean match with someone else who's playing to win. To my palette, Brawl just isn't that good. Sure, if you're strictly looking at the single player content, it's easily the best in the series but like, of course it is. Melee was rushed and everything after Brawl hardly even tried with the single player. Of course, I wouldn't consider Melee the best game in the series personally, but it is just a fact that for people with my sensibilities, Melee is the better core gameplay experience compared to Brawl even if it's roster is smaller and the single player content isn't as refined or plentiful. Even without the advanced techniques such as wavedashing or L-cancelling, Melee provides a more kinetic and skill-based experience and caters towards the more popular offensive playstyles while Brawl funnels players into a defensive game. If you ask me, no Smash game has really captured this perfectly, I couldn't even say what my favorite is since they all have failings in one area or another- Melee really requires you to break your shoes in on it as it's full of jank and some design choices which, intentional or not, often create a sense of friction between an inexperienced player and the game, making it feel unnecessarily strict or punishing, while Sm4sh suffers from poorly balanced mechanic such as rage and a generally putrid stage selection on Wii U even for casual players. Ultimate on the other hand has this sense of feeling overtuned, like they wanted to appease Melee fans by making it faster and more "aggressive" without fully considering what made Melee's blistering speed work or the shift in mechanical design between games. Imo, Sm4sh felt the best, but that solid gamefeel was trapped in a game with easily the worst stage selection AND side content in the series if we're talking Wii U, and trapped in a solid game stuck on hardware nobody really wants to play stuff like Smash on if we're talking 3DS. tl;dr of my long tangent is smash games are a lot more complex than just "content vs being like melee", every smash game has its own quirks and reasons one may prefer it to another. melee has casual appeal as well and there's a small but dedicated competetive scene for brawl since it does offer a unique gameplay feel no other game can offer. it's just that melee's casual offerings and brawl's competitive offerings appeal to more niche subsets of people compared to their inverse qualities. at the end of the day, smash is and has always been a series that tries to appeal to casual players, directed by a guy who's more of a competitive gamer. each attempts to cater to both ends of the spectrum, if not to varying degrees of success.

[@CouchCat101]

Simple Smash Bros exists like can't stand out if you gotta compete with the platform champion for like 10+ years

[@mogusman3]

I disagree. Most people are sick of the state of Ultimate's meta, and are trying to get away from it. Melee also isn't much better due to how polarizing it is. On the casual end, people are definitely sick of Ultimate after like 5 years, so if something actually good comes out, I bet it will do fine. Rivals is still kicking, so it's definitely not impossible.

[@HypercomboProduction]

​@celestialwaffle1491 i dont think people are sick of Ultimate. I think people are either burnt out or they just dont expirement with the game. Like no one uses Spirit combinations and its roster is huge, making it almost impossible to master every character.

[@mogusman3]

@HypercomboProduction I see what you mean, but my point was more about how most people, casual or competitive, are looking for something new, ya know? Another thing is, ask any top player what they think about the current meta, and you'll hear all about how sonic, rob, game and watch, and steve are super annoying. I'm sure if something actually better comes along, it can find success because of all this. Also I agree people need to play more "fun" gamemodes like spirits or stage morph or something, but realistically not much is gonna change in competition setting.

[@HypercomboProduction]

@celestialwaffle1491 which was why I brought up the huge roster. When you have a big roster like that, one tends to forget about certain characters, or the characters just can't compete with others.

[@Hamantha]

14:32 I must also say that constant references and bloating makes them feel a little flanderized and kinda remove them from feeling like that character but that’s not really relevant. Like I want to play SpongeBob that feels like SpongeBob. Not a cardboard cutout comprised of “hey you remember when he did THAT that one time? Or this” at the cost of something more natural and believable

[@spudsbuchlaw]

Sakurai: Smash Bros would die without me Other platfighter: Nonsense! Lemme try Other platfighters: *stumbles over themselves* Sakurai: You were a fool for doubting me

[@edfreak9001]

because NASB is a good game and a good dev team made on the same kind of time restraints and budget that Gamemill gave Skull Island: Rise of Kong and Multiversus is a very shiny extremely polished outer shell housing a crappy essentially-a-mobile game that people like purely for the voice lines and skins, but it's F2P so children will defend it because it's all they know also it's a genre that Nintendo founded so people will act offended that anyone other than nintendo makes one and/or complain when it has less money poured into it than smash ultimate (To anyone trying to argue for Rivals of Aether, the common person plays that for the workshop mods like Ronald McDonald. It is high quality at base but don't try to pretend anything else.)

[@aaaaagh-thegoat]

NASB2 was great but it got screwed over by the budget and the failure of the first game

[@pottedplantplays]

The biggest thing that sets rivals apart from other platform fighters is that it’s not a crossover game. It’s a completely original roster. it doesn’t have to be like Nick Brawl Stars or the other one with Superman and stuff. It can do its own thing because it doesn’t have any overlap with other fan bases other than itself because it’s a self-contained franchise.

[@azurethecobalt]

I like the video bringing attention problems with this subgenre but the Stage argument is completely wrong. Every platform fighter game I have has casual stages or stages with wild layouts from Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion, Playstation Allstars, Brawlout, Brawlhalla, Rivals of Aether, Nick 1 and 2. Multiversus essentially is having a wild problem that it's competitive stage pool has too many chaotic stages in play. Anyways like said good video. I like Rivals because Dan really got a good flow with the mechanics that makes up His platform fighter. It cuts fluff but cooks with the ingredients that are built around it. Multiversus is definitely too competitive focused and drew me off with how much I didn't like the Rift and I don't like playing games where I don't have a full roster which had me dropping KoF15 until recently since I had money to buy the remaining dlc characters. I don't wanna give the game that doesn't feel too enjoyable my money.

[@gmod_scarries]

the year is 20XX every platform fighter failed and the samsb bros siries is thriving

[@Badylird]

thanks for uploading kazoo. really needed something good to watch

[@elemomnialpha]

Because they don't understand why Smash is successful in the first place and thus wind up catering to the wrong audience for the budget given making them fail, the Melee fans Rivals could get away with it as a low budget indie game but the others? 3:13 oh you got that too Another reason is Smash is a self sustainable popularity generator where these others aren't because they don't balance their roster around general audiences but the age range of the Melee audience which prevents casual audiences from cycling in because the new show they're currently watching has a character in this big crossover, how many people picked up Fortnight because they collabed with something else they already has an interest in? I'm betting a LOT both All-star Brawl's for example only had *2* currently airing franchises, no one currently watching Nick will care about your game because their shows aren't there to drive people to pick up the fighting game they're in, or for people who got the game to think about checking out the newer shows because they were in it driving traffic to the network Multiversus has a similar but different problem in being WAAAY too widespread (legitimately it should have started as an exclusively CN focused game going into the wider WB pool later on) and is far too grindy for a casual to consider bothering with when they have no idea when/if their show or character will even make it in

[@rantafor4377]

By this point we are going to start to need to looking at why Smash succeeds instead of why everyone else fails and it is increasingly looking like the answer is pretty much just "because it's smash and nothing else is".

[@MrGameguyC]

I didn't like this video. The lack of Combo Devils and Fraymakers lost me.

[@omegahaxors9-11]

All these smash clones and not a single one of them has asked the stupidly obvious question: What if we made a smash game where competitive players actually wanted to turn on items and not just play on the same 3 stages. Seriously, huge missed potential that is never going to be fulfilled by just copying melee's worst aspects and appealing to the kinds of people who will drive away the playerbase.

[@Forten3]

3:31 i never talked that one promise

[@einekartoffel2490]

Thank you. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[@MrKurtKocain]

The games racing to replace smash remind me of how Street Fighter 5 had this major competitive focus and tried to streamline what made a good game for sport and ended up just feeling completely sterile until its last two DLC seasons that were essentially the SF6 mechanic tests

[@pkchiptune]

Some of the other comments have mentioned this, but the first half of this video is poorly researched in regard to the main three games here (NASB, Multiversus, Rivals) • NASB 1 and Multiversus are not similar to Melee. NASB 2 is a little bit closer to melee in terms of overarching tech, but has quite a bit to stand out (meter mechanics). • Wavedashing isn't a complicated input. In basically every platform fighter that includes it (Slap City, NASB 1 & 2, Rivals), the buffer window is longer than Melee & you don't have to airdodge diagonally, you can just dodge forward. It's like..slightly more complicated than smash attacks are. • NASB 1 and 2 didn't get rid of shields, grabs, or items. Multiversus has items at least. And competitive players definitely don't see shields and grabs as unnecessary! In fact, Rivals 1 is only missing those two because they were a small indie company, so they weren't able to be added. • In NASB 1, the vast majority of stages are non-competitive. NASB2 and Rivals have a similar approach: ALL of the stages have non-competitive layouts, but there's an option to toggle whether you want them to be standardized & competitive, or goofy casual. • For 7:43 , NASB 2 has a ton of extra game modes; it's got a whole roguelike story mode, boss rush, Squad Strike, a mode that's like "break the targets". That game does a really good job at catering to both crowds, but most of that was ignored

[@BuckBlaziken]

The only platform fighter game I see succeeding in its own corner is Rivals of Aether 2. As far as I know, Rivals of Aether 2 is entirely unique and don’t rely on big name characters for it’s marketing, since the creator, Dan Fornace, is using only in universe characters from his own world building for the game. It also is a MASSIVE glow up compared to its first game.

[@X0v3r]

lol who's here after seeing fizzi tweet that he's making a melee-like game

[@NikolasNussbaum]

Im working on a game called *the fights across universes* 😊

[@SaddieMoon]

13:44 Personally, I’ve been making custom Smash/Smash like movesets for years, and I would say it’s not super hard if you’re at least used to it. Well, at least when it comes to making the concepts, as I never programmed a moveset, only made a ton of concept movesets while learning about the functions of Smash and Smash likes. So you can take my opinion with some grain of salt. But even then I still believe, especially being used to this, that it isn’t that hard to give a character a moveset that both isn’t primarily references and fits the character.

[@FriendsWeMade]

1:46 holy shit Skurry

[@rav3nston3]

GOD thanks for being correct in so many ways, but 1: i never used grabs/shields in smash, and in rivals i Barely ever parry because i have terrible timing (dodges are cool though i'm good at those) 2: a big way games can weed out the casual players is price tags. you make a game that costs 50 dollars or is free (unless you want any fun characters/skins), you make a game that casual players don't care about... the same applies to graphical fidelity, you make a game that requires a machine from 2035 to run, you make a game that casual players *physically can't play* BUT ALSO i have more to say rivals is fun (and was fun even before the definitive edition update, i even got the sk dlc who i played the HELL out of) because it was a passion project from someone who made probably one of the least competitive smash-like fangames ever, super smash land, which must've informed the decisions made in rivals because it's Really good, even from the perspective of someone who was never Truly competitive in smash (and now rivals 2 is looking... like a... platform fighter? that i won't be able to play without a new graphics card...) also check out brawlhalla, it's weird and interesting i wanna know your thoughts on it i think the ideal platform fighter is one that caters exclusively to the casual scene and forces competitive players to experience the casual features before adding options so it weeds out the toxic players who hate fun before they get their talons into it and make every post about it a constant "ummmmm but it could be melee again"

[@SaddieMoon]

1:12 It’s been mostly dominated by Smash, but there was some other Platform Fighting games that released over the years. Not a lot, and many very obscure. The only known one before now is PlayStation All*Stars, which takes a majorly different direction from Smash. 1:49 To be more accurate, I’m referring to prior to this era as well.

[@karelissomoved1505]

I love roa, although the lack of shield means that I have no choise but to constantly attack. with the inclusion of workshop content, my causal part is satisfied.

[@nathanieljones8043]

Sheilds make the game more offensive since you can't approach safely without them that's why roa added them back in the 2nd one

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

Platform Fighters are hard to follow as most gamers wouldn’t care about playing a fighting game that’s in the same genre Smash Bros. There’s a reason why Smash fans tend to call other Platform Fighters as Smash Clones, namely because Smash Bros already started the whole sub genre of fighting games and to many, had perfected it. To non gamers who are fans of cartoons, playing a game like Nick All-Star Brawl or MultiVersus would be a big deal to them as they don’t really care about video game franchises aside from Pokémon, Minecraft, Mario or even Sonic. But for gamers, they would obviously care about a platform fighter that plays different compared to Smash Bros is nothing like Smash Bros, and just assumed it was buggy. That’s how a lot of the criticism PlayStation All-Stars went. Gameplay & character choices aside, a lot of the hate towards the game was just that it was a Smash Bros ripoff. Unless gamers stopped comparing Platform Fighters to Smash Bros, there’s no way to talk about a platform fighter without comparing it to Sakurai’s game series that he won’t retire from.

[@Jimblemimble]

rivals 2 23rd october

[@RB-qq1wu]

Ranno will be real in 19 days ! ! !

[@Saferoom45]

I mean when you think about it, people really cannot make up their own minds and gives evey single platform fighting games a chance. Some players can be very, and i do mean VERY, hypocritical with their tastes of them. Not saying its a bad thing all the way, but it can be abit of a habit that people can make a huge fuss about it even when they are losing to their opponent or they dont even really know, understand, nor respect the characters. Why? Because they can be very competitive. I really wanna see every single platform fighters to grow and fit in with smash bros like seriously, we need toughen up and swallow our pride here. This constant fussing getting us nowhere in the community.

[@geonations6618]

Make a theory video on the new psychological horror game tsunagari chess school

[@nerrex901]

What about brawlhalla it’s been very successful casually and competitively

[@imaginaryking5276]

I wouldn’t really say casually, but it’s doing extremely good competitively

[@nerrex901]

@@imaginaryking5276 why not casually?

[@uberculex]

Brawlhalla is the biggest game that has absolutely no influence outside of the people who play it. Most people haven't heard of it at all. It really is a freaking anomaly. If I didn't know any better, I'd think those player numbers were faked somehow.

[@Jelly_shy_guy_man]

I just wanna play a platform fighter with grabs and items, in my opinion hedges and shields suck, shields I learned they existed 3 months after I picked up the game, ledges their fine, ALL I WANT IS ITEMS IN A PLAT FORM FIGHTER, I ALWAYS DRAW ITEMS FOR EVERY EITHER STAGES CHARATERS OR, I’m just mad.

[@ArjunTheRageGuy]

Still waiting for a platform fighter having adventure mode with legit platformer levels like from smash 64 up to brawl. I mean, byte breakers is kinda like that with its big ahh battle royale stage, although it's mostly stuck on stamina mode and no option to go to knockback percent mode, so there's that.

[@metawarp7446]

Dude didn't mention Brawlhalla :p (which possibly has 100 million players) But yeah, Brawlhalla does simplicity very welll imo. The rock-paper-scissors is simplified to attacks vs dodges, with weapon throws as a risky option that's not very impactful for starting players. Dodges are very powerful, so you can still play defensively if you want to. There's a lot of characters, but they're quite similar outside the weapon they use, so if you learn how every weapon works, you know how every character works (roughly). Also, the character designs focus on the "rule of cool", which makes sense for a fighting game. Also, what you can and cannot obtain as F2P is clear and makes sense (Afaik you can get all original characters. You can't get get the crossover characters, but they are actually just skins for original characters).

[@forskipped900]

We need 3d platform fighting. Like in roblox but with good design (game design)

[@maxuwl]

Wonder what is his opinions is on brawlhalla Jokes aside Brawlhalla is just is the smash game that didnt do smash to point of being a strong brawl being smash and hallas But i think it shows something The game has competitive and a big casual snece (the multiplayer side-games as so good) scene, the game doenst have wavedashing, doenst have ledges but a whole new wall mecanhincs unique to brawlhalla, has unique version of gameplay, tecnically the WAY less fighters that it seems because the fighter is the weapon but then again even legend as 2 weapons so is 3 fighters at once, and it has all the casuak stuff that you mentio at this point brawlhalla is the tekken of smash, but yet no mention I guess smash gnere it self is a curse of never enough

[@Mystinfernal]

Oh yeah, after nearly 150 hours of brawlhalla, safe to say it's definitely Easy to learn but have yet to be Crazy pro at the game. Even then, some character are still broken than the others especially the newer one

[@themarxfromkirby]

this video tickled my video to watch while playing a game organ

[@nathanieljones8043]

Wavedashing is very simple? You airdash into the ground and you keep sliding with the speed of the air dash it's like rolling onto the ground or the drop dash from sonic mania. Also was intended Sakurai named it the wave dash that's not a fan term.

[@yawbyss981]

These critiques don’t work for Rivals, idk why you put it in this video. It was designed as a fighting game primarily and a party game secondarily. I know you brought that up in the video, but I think it’s an even more important distinction than you illustrated. Most of the things you criticized these games for stop being bad when you take into account the intended audience. And, yes, Rivals has appeal that Melee doesn’t as a competitive game. Like you already mentioned, Rivals character designs are top of their class, but it also makes Melee mechanics far more lenient and intuitive to pull off. I know you critiqued wavedashing as being an unintuitive mechanic for something intentionally added, but it’s really just jump+roll in Rivals. Compare that to motion inputs in other fighting games, and it really isn’t so unintuitive. Personally, it’s my favorite game period, and it’s largely due to what you called downsides

[@matiasmoreno3562]

All i need is Melee 2.

[@SaddieMoon]

Before I watch the video, I want to give my personal takes. Nick failed because of leaks, weak DLC, and not being able to maintain itself. Multiversus failed because of Microtransactions and many other reasons. Edit: Okay, I’ve seen the video and I agree, these games puts too much of a competitive focus for what would appeal to mostly casuals.

[@Bruhmblebee612]

I have depression.

[@nathanieljones8043]

7:15 do not bullshit me these maps are only fun with hazards on if they are fun at all. A little kid can figure out how to abuse the issue you bring up. Party games still need to be a little bit fair even if you are gonna say but Party game.

[@DylanDunn-h7q]

I'm a fan of The Loud House, and competitive Super Smash Bros, so i might play Nick all star brawl! :)

[@redhotdanger2394]

Only reason to play rivals would be the workshop characters tbh.

[@awakened_fjord]

roa is still really fun even without mods, I say this because i have 150+ pages of mods but I decided to give the normal characters a chance and now i got hooked I do get your point though, most content surrounding rivals is workshop characters and they are pretty cool lol

[@bakedbuninvasion]

The games are poorly balanced, have terrible physics, have some of the worst animations iv seen in gaming, and are puffed up to be a smash killer by people who make up less than 1% of the smash playerbase and the core community couldn't care less who they are (competitive players). That's your answer, and any other is wrong. Even the biggest parasocial personalies on twitch and youtube couldnt get anyone to actually care about melee again, despite meat riding the scene into oblivion.

[@crash8928]

Damn what about our beloved Battle royal

[@fistpump64]

This video is fun but I kind of don't know what you're talking about slap city has a ton of weird stages so does Nickelodeon even if the game kind of sucks it has items too and Weird Ass stages rivals is more like what the video is talkimg anout but rivals a story of life is pretty small the only reason I didn't have grabs and Ledges was because they literally didn't know how to develop them and nowadays it has Workshop which is casual insane hell

[@rantafor4377]

Finally a comment that mentions workshop for Rivals, people underestimate just how much that one addition breathed life into the game.

[@refraysmusic]

Why does every video talking about platform fighters video essay exclude Brawlhalla.

[@kev7361]

Saying we don't need wave dashing is such a stupid take

[@valmalindi296]

8:48 silvagunner spotted😊

[@jeremiahresilien4724]

4:24 midnight motorist reference?

[@GameFreak412]

cool vibeo xd

[@KingObliv]

Because I already own Smash

[@-NPC.]

Naruto Ultimate Ninja 1-3 was to me, a great Platform fighter

[@noahalcantar2431]

Platform fighting games fail because they're overshadowed by Fortnite

[@johnmcswag5980]

10:43 holy shit nelward!?!?

[@MrCapgrasSun]

3:31 killed me lmao

[@FailedPancake]

What's the pixel melee 2 ripoff called at 2:24

[@Reizor_]

rivals of aether steam workshop

[@nathanieljones8043]

Roa isn't failing? It's just smaller

[@WillVill111]

👍

[@RB-qq1wu]

I think you should try playing fighting games with the objective to actually appreciate them beyond how they are different from Smash. Try Tekken or something. Leo's fun and non-binary... Game doesn't have ledges tho sorry.

[@Right_Bumper]

10:43 Bro, do you really want Marvin to be able to spam his flag? Or his spaceship? Do you want Jason to spam his armour? They have to do this

[@user-x56ji4i2o1]

I aint ever plaued one cos wjat i seen is expensive and we r poor we aint got nintendo just my pc and laptop so

[@Stonedgod42069]

I say they are failing cause hear me out they are becoming redundant garbage

[@lazyavatar2479]

if they were just... GOOD then they would not fail!

[@moonwarrior3342]

Wow, it's like the platform fighting community can't help but eat each other alive instead of trying to band together. I'm not gonna be surprised that clowns are trying to over hype Rivals of Aether 2 due to some big name in the Smash community threw a ton of money into Rivals. Then pretty much not care when the game comes out as either Nintendo throws more Smash slop out for the parasocial Sakurai worshippers to eat up or the people that hype it up don't commit to the game.

[@madnessarcade7447]

They aren’t NASB 2 did well and multiversus made a strong comeback

[@Jojojoeyx3]

cause they suck lmao

[@kev7361]

This dudes dumb

[@SR.PlayAlot64]

Oh hey look, it’s another generic “Why this platform fighter fails HA HA smesh is better” type video Yeah no thanks, bye 👋

[@FerinitheBloodHusky]

you didnt need to comment this

[@SR.PlayAlot64]

@@FerinitheBloodHusky Don't like me calling out this video for what it is?

[@joefiend7343]

31 seconds no views. Bro fell off

[@NobleJon]

RAHHHHHHHHHH GET EMM KAZOO CAT