Why Is My Album Quiet On Spotify?

In which I try to answer the perennial question: why does my music seem quiet on Spotify / Tidal / insert streaming service?
The album: "I'm Still Here" by No Good Name.
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
Tidal: listen.tidal.c...
My SPAN settings: • Mixing With Your Eyes:...
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[@SophiesName]

Thanks so much for helping, always great to hear your perspective on things, especially great to hear so on my own music! The comment section is full of interesting observations as always too!!

[@thedofflin]

Your album sounds great. Scooping the mid range has eliminated that harshness and allowed a lot of the other musical elements to cut through. In fact I think it's one of the better mixes I've ever heard in terms of clarity, I can hear everything without my ears trying to 'close up'.

[@jon00200]

Great production for sure, it sounds good to me

[@moskva-kassiopeya]

Your sound has that 90s smooth vibe. I really like it.

[@OrdinaryOneOfficial]

Clicked that ♥on Tidal. Awesome job, Jake & Sophie!

[@SophiesName]

@@OrdinaryOneOfficial and Jake? Are you sure you listened to "I'm Still Here" and not my previous album?

I'm not saying that Dan is the only person we should listen to when it comes to loudness. But we should probably pay some heed to the person who won the loudness war.

[@ThePlacehole]

@@jasoncruizer Did you just ask him, whether he knows has ears?

[@HarryPorpise]

@@jasoncruizer yeah and his song made my ears bleed, i perceived it be really freaking loud

[@dabanjo]

@@jasoncruizer No we weren't aware of that..🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[@HamsterGames]

@@jasoncruizer 100% agreed. If you go to for -14 even -10 LUFSi for edm it will sound weak AF. Really depends. So never always go for -12 or some "recommended" number. Use your Ears! BRO! xD

[@AlonsoJoaquinComposer]

@@1famekouby IKR XDDDD

[@Alex-cw7xf]

Dan-thank you-your videos are a wealth of information and I've learned so much about loudness, phasing, and EQing principles that are muddied up by the thousands of other videos on the subject. One of the more common issues I experience when trying to achieve a decently loud mix is the meter peaking while the overall volume seams relatively quiet. For years I would try to make very careful EQ moves, then compress / multiband sidechain the hell out of each individual track, then compress/limit again on the master to get close to the same loudness as a reference, but to the detriment of the overall quality of the mix. The mix would be loud, but lacking in depth and compressing/limiting would bring out all sorts of nasty sibilance and other unpleasant frequencies that totally "ruin the vibe" as the kids say. Although I remember your advice that it's more important to make the mix sound good rather than loud it's still a bad habit to do this I'm trying to unlearn, call it cognitive dissonance but I myself find it annoying when listening to a playlist with tracks that vary widely in volume, even when I turn that silly "normalization" thing on. Anyway, what I learned is to get out of MIDI and render to audio to better see phase relationships on the grid, and most critically (to me), to examine the transients/peaks of each individual sound relative to the rest of the signal and to try to process the transients/compress to gain as much headroom as possible while still maintaining the character of the source. I'm not saying this is the case for the mix you are going over in this video, this is just my experience trying to make silly boom-boom untz-untz dance music. TL;DR... first principles... more headroom = more room for pushing the levels with a limiter / clipper, use subtle compression or transient shaping to make the signal have *slightly* less dynamics while maintaining it's character. If you compress and limit too much your mix will be loud, but sound flat and maybe even a bit obnoxious to listen to.

[@MrAdrianloera]

You just set me free, thank you man 😭👍🏼

[@neilenglemixer8117]

Well said 👏👏

[@scope_creep]

Would have been interesting to see if the "normalise volume" function in Tidal was on or off. Does Spottify have a function like that too? I have it always ON toeven out the overall volume of my 2000+ songs playlist, and I even kick out too loud songs. Too much Loudness is so annoying ....

[@DanWorrall]

It was on, I did say so. When I was a subscriber Spotify gave me a choice of loudness targets. Can't remember if you could turn it off entirely, probably yes. But I switched to Tidal quite a while ago so they might have changed the options anyway.

[@scope_creep]

@@DanWorrall : FYI, could access my old open.spotify acc. Is does have an option to normalise volume and there's even an EQ now. Cheers and thanks for your fantastic content!

[@DaveyPerron]

As my bandmate once pointed out: every listener has a volume knob, but none have a "sound better" knob.

[@worstproducerever119]

Funny thing about the volume knob is that it is a “sound better” knob. You want it to be calibrated properly.

[@anteshell]

@@worstproducerever119 It is not. You can use almost any single knob throughout the song development from the player's fingers to the final output volume knob to make it sound like crap, but none of those work alone to make the song sound good. They all have to work in harmony to make it happen. So, the volume knob is rather "sound worse" knob.

[@oinkooink]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh so very poignant and thought provoking. He must have been the drummer.

[@drrodopszin]

And then you put on a Noisia song and it just smashes clearly and loudly.

[@oinkooink]

@@drrodopszin Noisia isn't really music though. It's discordant, satanic masturbation.

[@troubletcat]

One of the hardest things to learn is having some confidence in your own mixing and production decisions. We tend to be our own worst critics, and it's easy to notice differences between your mix and other mixes and decide that your mix must be deficient in some way. But it might also be that it's just different, and maybe that's okay. What's the point if everything sounds the same, anyway?

[@anteshell]

I do realize I don't have that confidence myself and I have identified at least one big reason why that is. And it has nothing to do with my confidence on my skills even though the result is exactly the same. It is that I cannot trust any other people to be able to say if the song is good or not, so I cannot get any affirmation. I haven't got any other kind of trust issues whatsoever and I have no idea what causes this, so I don't have any solutions to it either. I only know that those trust issues are in my head and not their fault, but knowing that doesn't really help solving them, if just a little mitigating them.

[@nicklycosextra7994]

I took a listen to a few songs on the album (on spotify) and my first thoughts weren't "This sounds good, but it should be louder" it was "Damn this is a vibe and it sounds smooth". Personally, I think the songs are perfect where they are. One of my favorite songs and examples that loudness means nothing is 'Autumn' by Caligula's Horse and the beginning of the song is incredibly quiet, but it absolutely serves a purpose being that quiet. It's supposed to be delicate and contrast the triumphantly loud ending.

[@SophiesName]

Thanks so much!! Glad you enjoyed the songs :) I'll check out 'Autumn'!

[@kylepatterson9389]

It's amazing how 3:52 of you talking can erase over a decade's worth of mix anxiety. I've wasted so much time worrying about loudness, but the simple truth is what you said; the listener will take care of it.

[@gius_taakstudio]

IMHO, and not advocating for LOUD IS BETTER, but I'm not sure about "Their volume knob for your album is where they want it to be..." because nowadays we listen to so much more music than before, song after song, in an endless stream of songs... and we don't change the volume for each song... so are we in a "volume knob"-less listening experience, where apparent loudness matters? Maybe it has always been like this I'm thinking radio, public spaces, other common listening situations... for the majority of people.... is anything that is not an 'album focused' listening a "volume knob"-less experience?....

[@PlayTheGuitarra]

The thing is that if you master at -14lufs it will be too quiet next to classic tracks, even with the normalization turned on...Not so long ago I remixed one EP I did and uploaded it to Spotify, the target level I aimed I believe was -11 lufs, Loudness Penalty at -3, the thing was that one day I was listening to Spotify randomly and I thought "Hey let's see how my track compares to this" and it was incredibly frustrating to notice my track sounded quieter and I had to turn the volume up even with the normalization turned on...In my opinion people who listen to playlists won't take the bother to be changing the volume all the time...The solution for me it to choose a classic album or song you like how it sounds and try to match that loudness because if you grew up in the 90's, early 2000's your music will sound quieter than anything mastered for CD and if you make a style you would like to fit in with those classic songs you cannot be so much quieter...I"m not talking about super squashing the thing but make it loud enough so you can be in the ballpark with this other classic tracks, if not your track will sound smaller, weaker and boring next to those classics and it's super depressing...On top of that if you listen to music with a USB stick in the car you will need to make it loud if you don't want to be super quiet next to all those classics in the road...

[@PlayTheGuitarra]

PS: To add to the bad news, as far as I tested it KZbin Music doesn't normalize and I don't know if it allows you to turn it on so the loudness wars will continue in KZbin Music and if you master so low you will not be competitive on this platform which may end up being the biggest one someday...

[@chinmeysway]

wow -11 seems crazy loud. that’s what is best to aim for, i have no idea lol. what genre we talkin bout ?

[@PlayTheGuitarra]

@@chinmeysway Classic Rock is usually at -9 or -8

[@GloveBunniesVideos]

I think when people say "louder" the sometimes mean "clearer." When you hear a song in a supermarket and it sounds super-clear, it's not loud; the speakers they use in markets have crossovers that cut most of the sub bass signal out. A good test is to put a shelf filter on your mix that lowers everything below 60-80hz by like 10db. If your mix gets quieter, then the bass is the major driving force. If the mix stays at about the same level, then you're balanced. If you hear bass notes at the supermarket, it's probably harmonics added for presence.

[@everybodyhasoul5438]

This is also what I was thinking.

[@toddpipes9679]

I'm a mastering engineer, and I have the most difficult time explaining the extent to which low frequency information (especially sub-sonic stuff) eats up overall apparent volume. . .

[@chinmeysway]

@@toddpipes9679so, in some cases you end up lowering say 80 hz and lower quite a bit in order to bring about headroom to bring all else up ?

[@WrestleTheDecibel]

I agree on the whole but I'd like to add 2 points : 1. The overall level obviously doesn't really matter within the context of an album, but it might in the context of a playlist featuring other artists...which might be where Sophie has her worries? and 2. I'd like to suggest in terms of her mixes that the sub bass on was toned back a little, which may (or may not!) increase the perceived loudness of those upper mid frequencies? Feel free to disagree obviously :)

[@WrestleTheDecibel]

Ah, I see you'v already answered the first point. As you were!

[@SophiesName]

Hiya, Sophie here and next to what you and Dan have said about the midrange, I agree I definitely have the tendency to hype the sub frequency and is something I'm tryna coax my way out of in certain situations, thanks for the observations!

[@Erdnase23]

‘Unless they’ve been shouted at by their mum.’

[@davidjones7544]

I'm not trying to be smart, but why is this news to people these days still? The more you clip the more distortion so it will be louder but actually sound worse. Maybe not worse in the very short run but listen to it long enough and your ears will get annoyed. We have people moving to vinyl to restore something organic that they feel is missing. What is missing are all those waveforms that have been clipped because someone wants it to be mastered "louder". It's not louder it's more distorted. The listener not the engineer determines the final loudness. So we have people, embracing a format (vinyl) with more distortion to somehow cover up or make up for everything that is being clipped. This is backwards on so many levels. The problem with wave clipping distortion is that most people are not even really aware of it. Their ears over time just get annoyed and they stop listening. Sorry if I am just repeating the obvious. If so, move along nothing to see hear.

[@reiniervanzwieten7092]

to be fair it is quite annoying to have your song be quiter then other work, As a frequent user of spotify usually the levels are pretty balanced but going from a particularly loud sounding song to a quiter one can be quite annoying especially when trying to use it as background music and you want to turn it on and not bother with it anymore.

[@allanwalker5305]

a number of years ago i recorded an EP with my band, and i insisted that the mix engineer had the mix too loud and showed imaged of it clipping and it was audible, i was so upset. The worst thing was, my bandmates agreed to keep it loud and ignored the clipping, "as it was quieter that my other CDs" and "i don't want to have to change the volume for each CD"

[@triplestandart7613]

The problem is convenience at this point. If you're listening on Spotify, I'd argue most people want to set their volume once and then don't have to worry about it again. Then again - loudness correction on these platforms should deliver exactly that if I'm not mistaken? So if it sounds quieter doesn't that mean the loudness correction is not doing its job?

[@DanWorrall]

Kind of, yes. Human hearing is complicated, and measuring loudness is difficult. R.128 is the best we've got at the moment, but it's not perfect.

[@Jaburu]

It works if you don't switch genres/decades. As soon as you switch, -14 LUFS can sound pretty diferent

[@isajoha9962]

Probably a bigger issue for most is, why does no one listen to my music on Spotify? One "loudness issue track" vs the other 80-90 million tracks there.

[@swedensbestrapper]

Dan the man is bakk

[@Dudderlyful]

Hearing louder music does fool us into thinking it sounds better, so when a track appears in a playlist and it's comparitively quiter, that impression is lost. Your point does stand though, but in isolation or in an album setting. Both of which aren't very common.

[@Six2Nine]

Hey Dan could you test some new plugins plz? Softube Bus Processor e.g.

[@alrecks619]

also overly limiting and clipping your individual tracks and mix bus can defeat the purpose of having a percussive element at the first place.

[@SophiesName]

I definitely try to be careful with my limiting and clipping, there's a lotta compression on stuff in the mix anyway so I definitely like to keep that in mind. - Sophie

[@willemmoller6736]

very well put, couldn't agree more. this has always been my argument - we're all humans who can figure out how a volume knob works so we can each listen at the level that suits us. the loudness wars were stupid and unnecessary to begin with and over-compression and limiting has ruined many otherwise great productions. it really is time to move on from this silliness. just make it sound good

[@GabeFurber]

While I agree with the core message of the video, I don't agree that loudness will "take care of itself". Yes, streaming services are going to normalise your mix to -14 LUFS, but there's different ways to get that result, and they sound different, so you ought to have a say in how to get there. Due to the limiting, the mix shown has lost a lot of transient information, which plays an important role in loudness perception (I think that's backed up by research but take it with a grain of salt). If the inevitable normalisation is kept in mind while mixing/mastering, then you could hit that number while maintaining dynamic range, so you get a louder sounding mix. I think 'I Won't Freeze' is a good example of this: the percussion at the end of the track doesn't slice through as much as I would like - there's just not enough volume difference between each hit and the background levels, and it gets somewhat lost in the mix. Contrast to the percussion in a track like 'Screening', by Mr. Bill. While obviously a different style, it meters about the same -14 LUFS, and still sounds smooth (to my ears), but with more dynamic range. I also disagree with Dan's point that nobody listens quieter than they want to. If I'm listening while washing the dishes for example, I'm not going to stop and adjust the volume - I would either need to clean my hands, or get grease on my gear, so I just won't bother. Same goes for when I'm wearing gloves, or working in the garden, or riding a motorbike, and so on. I set the volume to the level that sounds good for most tracks, which is pretty consistent thanks to normalisation, so when a quiet track comes along, I simply enjoy it a little bit less. It's small, but it might be the difference between checking out their other releases or not. This is probably even more true for the listeners who skip tracks in the first 10 seconds if they don't immediately love it. The loudness wars happened for a reason: it sounds good. There's something to be learned from that. And yeah, the end user's devices do have volume controls, but that's not a perfect solution. An extreme example is that you could export at -80dBFS, and it will get turned way up by the platform or the user, but since you're going to be approaching the noise floor of a 16 bit file it's going to be a pretty poor sounding result. Also, adding gain isn't always going to be as clean and linear as in the 64 bit float signal path of a DAW. So I do think loudness matters, and you should try master to the specs appropriate for the medium. Just like you need to be considerate about low end causing the needle to skip on vinyl, you should be deliberate about how normalisation will affect your track for streaming. But none of this is relevant if it compromises the sound that you want - which is of course Dan's point. Nobody is mastering orchestral recordings like this, and that's fine, it suits the genre. Sometimes you want a super low & clean sub bass, which just doesn't translate to a phone or laptop, but who cares? All choices are a compromise. For the record though, I liked the album (particularly the vocal production and low end), and it was plently loud enough for me. Favourite tracks were BREAK & Closing Statement.

[@DanWorrall]

There is no statistical correlation between loudness and commercial success. The loudness wars happened for two reasons: insecurity and ignorance. And a lack of industry standards. Three reasons.

[@andivax]

It's weird without sound. May be using playing songs backwards? PS Voxengo supports russian invasion in Ukraine. Now you know

[@andyrudolph7180]

Oh how I wish this advice applied to film and TV mixing… My life is cemented at -24lufs!

[@AJMansfield1]

I'm gonna say it, you're just wrong here about the "People don't listen to music louder or quieter than they want" thing. The primary way I and many other people consume music is as a background track for another activity, like driving, and in that context, adjusting the volume on a track-by-track basis is simply Not A Thing. I can spare the attention to adjust it once, when I put the playlist on the first time; if a track is too quiet after that it's just gonna stay too quiet for a while until I can spare the attention again, and if a track is too loud, then the whole playlist just gets shut off or the track skipped to immediately cut the distraction out.

[@Petch85]

I do agree with your points. But I understand way people think this is a problem. Many people listens to songs in a playlist, in a random order and may not adjust the volume song to song. And many tests has shown that humans think something sounds better if the volume is slightly higher. I know headphone, speaker, room and much more also influence the sound. But for some music some songs might sound less interesting between other songs on a playlist, and if people adjusted the volume they might love the song more. And I know that if you take this thought patton to its extreme we end up at the loudness wars. I feel like it is a problem with no solution.

[@DanWorrall]

The solution: just stop worrying about it! If your mix is a couple of dBs quieter in a playlist, that's not going to stop someone loving it, and if they love it they'll crank it up!

[@Petch85]

@@DanWorrall I will try.

[@fiachnaodonnell7895]

@@DanWorrall I think this position takes for granted the listeners patience, particularly when dealing with unknown music consumed somewhat passively. The idea that if your music is ''good enough'' (whatever that actually means) it will ''grab them'' or something doesn't hold up in the real world, especially with certain long form styles of composition or structure. It assumes all forms of music behave equally and it also assumes that the listener is perfectly happy being an active mix engineer throughout their evening commute, while they make their dinner, do their homework or talk to their friends...turning up good songs, remembering to turn it back down for the next one, I know for myself I have on multiple occasions been immensely frustrated by a very aggressive follow up track when I've returned to what I was doing and the song I'd ''cranked'' finished playing. The amount of music consumption that is consumed in the ''background'' and to be perfectly honest, validly so, means the problem people are asking advice about is still a relevant one that is frequently waved away. When I'm asked this question sincerely I tend to focus more on education around perceived loudness, which admittedly you did touch on in this video, rather than dismiss their worries with the same ubiquitous sentence they probably heard the very first day they saw any video on production. It's all well and good to say someone is gonna crank your song if they love it enough, it doesn't help the matter for a smaller artist trying to establish themselves in an industry increasingly centered around algorithmically curated playlists which are often meant to be played in the background and if not, are meant to be consumed en masse with a million more options for those lacking the patience to be level matching as they go. Overall I do think the issue is negligible at the end of the day, if there was an area of improvement for someone's career this likely wouldn't be the highest priority to work on in 99% of cases if the goal was more engagement with their music however I do get frustrated by peoples quite reasonable concerns being acknowledged but overall waved away. It falls into the same logical fallacies as the effective altruist movement.

[@DanWorrall]

@@fiachnaodonnell7895 this is all beside the point really. The fundamental reason you want your mix to play louder is because louder usually seems better. But if you have to make your mix sound worse to achieve that loudness, what have you gained?

[@fiachnaodonnell7895]

@Dan Worrall Surely you can acknowledge that a reasonable compromise can exist and therefore this will not be beside the point? Any artist has experienced compromise in the vision to achieve something deemed more worthwhile to the vision. Given human hearings immense fallibility yet very high sensitivity to level difference, I think it is yet again...Still relevant.

[@jackgavey7663]

I first noticed this element of good sounding mixes in Shellac. I'm not sure if he mixes them himself, but in any case, he is an experienced studio engineer and I like to believe he knows what he's doing and I expect that is reflected in the final masters of their music. They sound awesome to me. And to the point, Shellac, in any format, sounds quieter than a lot of the other music I've listened to. I often use a simple mp3 player because, despite the name, it will attempt to play back any format it has within it... and comparably, Shellac needs to be turned up. Same when I listen on a streaming service. It's clearly not a bug, but a feature.

[@timpanic]

Steve wants it that way. But since he is busy wearing two masks over another while he is alone in his studio during skype interviews and telling the cringiest bullshit why analog and xformers must be better in his pov I am out even if I once liked his music very much ;) When a punkrocker tells me my music must be recorded on an expensive snobby tape it tells me that this has nothing to do with punk anymore. His argument that tapes last longer because of the different digital formats is so flawed that I even can´t laugh about it. What I know is that I can buy a bunch of old PCs with an old logic or cubase version on it plus a backup HD which will play my old projects for decades for free with no degradation or expensive servicing including obsolete parts. This is not true at all for your heavy 24 track analog tape machine for sure.

[@RoganGunn]

You mean the band Shellac? So Steve Albini, who also produced/mixed In Utero by Nirvana, and a couple of PJ Harvey's records? (Amongst many many other albums too). He's great! I really like his sparse and honest production style. I've seen Shellac live, and they were fantastic. You're absolutely right, his mixes need to be turned up when you listen to them, but they sound great once they are! (He even put suggested tone control settings in the liner notes to In Utero!) This is also true of Pantera's back catalogue. Listened to at low volume the guitars can sound a bit thin and buzzy. Crank it, through decent speakers, and it suddenly makes sense. It was mean to be listed to LOUD, and the power and brutality of the mix comes across.

[@variancelog]

IIRC Steve avoids compression (especially with his own band) which is why the balance between the band members sounds more like a live band than a pop record, and why it sounds best at live volumes. Shellac is like audiophile art rock for that reason - or it would be if audiophiles listened to them!

[@miquelmarti6537]

@@timpanic believe it or not some analog formats will last much longer in a dry room than any other digital support can without the propper expensive mantainment (perpetual backups). We're talking decades here, not months.

[@timpanic]

@@miquelmarti6537 Not convinced. I have three Tape machines and I offer digital conversion to my clients. 90% of the tapes I get are a sticky mess. Half of the tape sticks at the head after playing them once and you can see through the tape because its so worn out. Beside the myth of no degradation ( maybe at a dry room at NASA with expensive employees) you have to have a perfectly mantained and alligned machine to play that format correct. Beside of the normal degradation you have when you don´t spool the tape from time to time caused by self magnetization, a normal RAID system is much cheaper and have no degradation. So what are you talking about? I have a lot of tapes from the 90ties...all have degradation and all have kind of speed problems at the end of the tape. Maybe better than people would think but worse than I prefer the resolution. After I convert them I better avoid working from the tape. Beside that I have digital files from the 90ties...all intact and no degradation. Expensive mantainment? I just have to copy them on a fresh raid system and I am done for the next 30 years. The point was that your modern setup won't play your songs with all the vsti and plugins anymore but how I said it's much easier to have an old machine with win xp and your old daw than to mantain your expensive heavy tape machine over the years when you were too lazy to bounce your single tracks down to wavs! Ever mantained a studer machine and replaced heads? Ever saw tape jitter on an oscilloscope? After that you will laugh about any digital jitter! Alone that video where steve is cutting tape at the wrong position just to copy a part somewhere else is middleagestyle with offering no plus on any art at all. Sorry I am a big analog lover and love my tape machines just for the beauty but I don´t need them to write and mix a good song and I would be ashamed if I had to ;) its more a state of mind thing not a thing of pure Materialism.

[@justingoers]

Every single person who ever mixes, records, performs or loves music should take this to heart.

[@DJeMo]

The Attenborough of audio returns, Ten hut Maestro, check Whytsey latest shout on your talents a video of his 1 or 2 ago...

[@selman7753]

what SOPHIE song were you referring to?

[@jeremyformerlyknownastoken8218]

wondering too i felt like a editing mistake

[@DanWorrall]

Sophie the producer that emailed me, not SOPHIE the artist. Sorry for any confusion.

[@DarrenAudioguy]

Superb, cheers Dan.

[@chinmeysway]

sometimes i’m in the red yet lufs loudness isn’t hitting even -14, which i figure isn’t loud enough for streaming (assuming bringing level up might sound bad?). vid is still vague on sensible non loud levels, if normalization is -14...

[@guitarz99]

pro songs all sound vastly different, i found this to be more noticeable when i started mixing songs and using reference tracks, some pro songs seem to have very little low end i was kind of shocked as i didnt really notice before. I stopped listening so critically using reference tracks against my mixes and just use them for and overall feel.

[@YuccaEvergreen]

We made at work (speaker manufacturer) raw comparison between streaming platforms and turners out that Spotify is really lacking loudness, but even more important the quality changes into "shit" when we get the loudness matching. Don't know what they're doing there, but if you want to have 'that musical moment' try something else than previously mentioned platform... For casual listening and background noise, it's ok!

[@musicbyflipper]

no good name the goat

[@SophiesName]

Love u xx

[@Juan_lauda]

The difference between someone with a lifetime of experience and a mid 20s YT content creator expert with no experience beyond going to audio college but who considers themselves an expert.

[@billpodolak7754]

It's pretty interesting that this album was -14.3 LUFS integrated and the other was -13.7 though, right? Why do you think that is?

[@DanWorrall]

I'm guessing because Tidal uses album normalisation. The loudest song on the album will probably be closer if measured alone. But, half a dB! That's not going to stop someone loving the mix is it?

[@billpodolak7754]

@@DanWorrall Definitely won't stop someone, no! Just interesting. Totally stats for nerds :)

[@Mansardian]

It's amazing. Dan, being absent for some time, returns for a video on a (for me) trivial topic and still manage it to drop one or two things that switch on the light bulb. Not that I wouldn't have known these things before but Dan brings back forgotten things so effortlessly to my awareness that it has something of an old wise man on the top of a stormy mountain. "Noone listens to music any louder than they want to", for instance. Screaming loud masters, do you listen?

[@diobelsuero9248]

This was the right video to click on, thank you so much

[@spkldgecko]

Also, with cheap speakers, headphones or cellphone speakers those "harsh" frequencies really can be a problem. My 2 cents.

[@MrNicknayme]

Good to “have you back”. It had been quiet from you for a while, and I was worried if you were getting off the KZbin train.

[@Mik3l24]

Many CD mixes are tbh too loud, which sometimes makes it annoying or even impossible to lower the volume to a comfortable level, especially when that volume control isn't exponential, but linear... which is really annoying too.

[@bdmcohen]

Honestly this is the most relevant, necessary music production-related 4 minutes on KZbin

[@LB-pp7pu]

"Hi and welcome back" always great to hear!

[@kevinwydler7305]

You can read my mind, I was just thinking that and what do you know, here is dan worall explaining this to me

[@vladimirbello147]

I love how you talk about something many many producers forget and its so important: an artistic and esthetic (like phiosophical discipline) point of view.

[@mar0k]

Yeah, lets get rid of the LW madness once and for all.

[@Djsyco.official]

This is really wierd: You open the Album of an Artist on Spotify and play the Song in the Album and it is really quiet. But when you play the exact same song from the album when he is into your playlist or search the Song and play it the song is on normal loudness. So it only is quieter when you click on the album and play it there

[@DanWorrall]

Can't be certain as I'm not a Spotify user these days, but this sounds like album normalisation: the loudest song is normalised, then all other songs get the same gain to preserve the relative loudness difference between songs. But in a playlist each song gets normalised separately.

[@davidmaraisthecampfireguit2596]

Brilliant advice. Some of the most exquisite albums of all time are delicate and quiet - like Dire Straits' "Brothers in Arms" or Paul Simon's "Graceland" - dynamics all in tact - and the actual songs automatically make the listener reach for the volume knob on their stereo. In the end, you want your listener wanting to turn their own playback system's volume knob up, as opposed to them wanting to turn it down, right?

[@mountaintop1368]

These are two of my absolute go-to examples of "perfect recordings"! Two more brilliant, dynamic masters are Steely Dan AJA and Toto IV. Quiet by Loudness War standards but enormous sounding if listeners learn to use a volume knob😊

[@Pavel-on-youtube]

🔥

[@johndoe_1984]

Why don’t you at least normalize?

[@thehighhnotes]

hm, i see the LIKe button but where did that LOVE button go?

[@SaintLuminus]

You really are the BEST, Dan. Thanks for this reminder about Loudness.

[@KozmykJ]

So glad to hear that you're still avoiding Spoti. 👍 If more people sensibly boycotted them, then perhaps they'd be fairer to the musicians that they currently pay so badly.

[@oinkooink]

Never used Spotify or any other music service.

[@gtabro1337]

The problem is not in Spotify as much as in the middle man, the labels that keep some of the money and distribute the rest. There are videos on youtube about it.

[@basroos_snafu]

No, welcome back to you! And I would make the music even 5dB quieter if it were to be nominated for allowance in my music collection. My question to you would be: why didn't you use more of the dynamic range? It would have looked so much better without the limited peaks... Thanks for the video!

[@basroos_snafu]

@@mal2ksc Thanks, and yes you're right, it just instantly reveals whats's going on. After I wrote the comment I realized the volume adjustment was done by spotify, so the peaks could have been touching the ceiling in the original track. Spotify used to add some compression as well, I don't know if they still do, but it was enough for me to not give that a chance at all. And Dan has taken the responsibility of teaching the world how to be aware of and enjoy dynamics.

[@SophiesName]

The mixes weren't overly dynamic to start with, I only clipped and limited by a total of 3-5db per song (if I'm remembering correctly). I'm not a big fan of the way limiting sounds being pushed hard on a master. The reason the sings probably look more limited is just cuz there's a lot going on in the songs. I think the transients still get throhgh when I listen back to the songs.

[@lbat5276]

"The fact that it might make it seem quieter in a direct musical comparison to a completely different mix shouldn't really be a consideration. So What?" The answer is a lot of musicians seeking to be discovered don't want to sound quiet next to other songs on the radio, or in a playlist or in multiple other obvious contexts. That isn't unreasonable.

[@DanWorrall]

It's just insecurity. With most pop music you're unlikely to get more than a dB or so of difference after normalising. Not enough to stop someone loving it.

[@heanz]

Yeeees YOU listen on tidal, sure! how did I know that before!

[@mjodr]

I like your argument about this, and I've heard it before in your other videos, but I have one quibble with it. When "your" song gets injected in the middle of a playlist of other much "louder" songs it stands out, and usually not in a good way. People are EXTREMELY lazy and they might not want to touch the volume knob. In fact, they may even skip the song because they "can't hear it". If they *do* adjust the volume, then the very next song on the playlist comes out BLASTING. Yes, I realize there are now many software solutions for this, and they are now built in to the popular media players and streaming services. If you are just listening to that artist's album, then sure, it's way less of an issue. With the way streaming services are designed, though, that is less likely. You and I grew up in the age where you physically purchased an album and listened to it by itself. It's not really like that anymore.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

Nowadays, all phones have some sort of DSP built into it which includes volume normalization and these are on by default in many cases.

[@mjodr]

@@BrunodeSouzaLino Into the OS level? I know they are in the apps, as I said, but wasn't aware of anything at the base OS level.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

@@mjodr Some builds of Android, like LineageOS, have base OS level DSP you can configure. I know Qualcomm cpus have that built into them and it's used for things like aptX.

[@oysterboymusic]

I'm glad those streaming services/KZbin low key put an end to loudness wars. Makes mastering for bedroom musicians so much easier in terms of dynamics, EQ and limiting.

[@colbychick]

When I make music on BandLab and post it to Spotify it is so much quieter than other songs. Other amauter artists using the same program as me seem to have no problem but for some reason it happens to my songs. Do you know how I can fix that?

[@duncanarrow]

Yeah, you try and explain that to a client. At the end of the day if your track isn’t as loud as everyone else’s then that is perceived to be a big problem. I’m not talking the loudness wars of the 90s, but more keeping it relative to everything else on Spotify. No amount of “well just turn up the volume knob” will cut it with a fee-paying client. Get the mix sorted and constantly compare to reference tracks already on Spotify/iTunes/Amazon etc.

[@DanWorrall]

If you're at -14 LUFS integrated or higher, you're as loud as everything else on Spotify.

[@joakimjocka8022]

Solid advise

[@auryle]

Thanks for making this Dan!

[@adibonts]

damn... truth hurts

[@khelmeri]

Spotify has an auto loudness feature so that everything is volume matched. Would it still sound quiet?

[@DanWorrall]

So does Tidal. None of these systems are perfect, but they work pretty well nonetheless. With most pop / rock music the loudness differences will be minimal after normalising, and a good song / good mix is all that really matters.

[@Quant-Beat]

My experience is that Spotify can actually sound louder if the audio was -12 LUFS than -9 LUFS. Same goes for KZbin. Louder into Spotify doesn't mean louder out always.

[@juanchis.investigadorsonoro]

As always, just try to sound better. Stop worrying about some number anywhere. Nice to see you again Dan.

[@benzmobil]

Well the volume knob is kind of unreachable if you are for example using airpods in the gym while working out. I would like though all songs to be proprely normalized by algorithm to an equal loudness level but I haven't found a good one. The Spotify has this option but it doesn't work well, it still makes some songs significantly louder than others though it helps a little bit.

[@maxdishaw]

Because loudness isn’t about limiting. It’s about good compression. Harmonic content. Good eq curve. Production decisions and arrangement.

[@foomfoom7547]

amazing

[@gregmark1688]

Some people had already figured out your last point by the 70s, Dan. I can remember quite a few albums that featured the printed exhortation to "PLAY THIS RECORD LOUD!!!"

[@markcole4001]

I guess those celebrity mixers, who allowed their names to be put on Waves products, will be scrambling for a new income stream.

[@toba303]

Could it be, that the problem for most folks here - me including - might not be about volume but about a 'tight' mix? My songs always feel to quiet compared to other tracks of the same genre and as far as I know my numbers also check out, -14 Lufs etc. But so do all the other tracks. What is the difference? Is it really just a bit more information in the mids? A flatter curve?

[@rautshsale1948]

wanting to make the song as loud as possible aside, isn't part of the "goal" for the listener to not have to constantly change the volume from song to song? or at the very least, not have our own song being much louder or quieter than the rest? (sure this is inevitable, if one goes from EDM to 50s jazz, but generally speaking) i'm not saying that we should mix songs any differently, just to accommodate for this, but i definitely thought that this is in part what a mastering engineer would do? to try to make it so that the our records can stand side by side to similar songs, mainly in terms of loudness

[@oh515]

Thank you!

[@ReeWebster]

If you want loud, control dynamic range and audition sounds/mix busses/master loud. Hard to guess what falls apart when pushed at the end. Do we all want -5lufs masters? Different question.

[@Bluelagoonstudios]

I have a plugin for this, it contains all encoders from YT, Tidal, Spotify. You can even listen how it's going to sound on that platform. And my ears say it's spot on. In these violent times (thx waves), I'm not going to say a brand or type, but in email I would point you to the right direction. I had the same issue, my work didn't sound like it suppose to be. I have two mixes on my page, One that is done with the plugin, the other without the plugin. The one without and sounds different, even more metallic I should say.

[@cosmin_ofc]

This video is so much better and clearer BECAUSE there is no audio and we only get to focus on the visual feedback

[@francescorea2680]

Agree 100%. Funny enough the only I mix crazy loud are demos, only place where loudness war still makes sense probably

[@emiel333]

Lovely said.

[@fleshtonegolem]

Usually it's a massive amount of midrange and sub that is eating up LUFS

[@MIHAO]

that's perfect

[@Hostile_Design]

Once I dug deeper into this topic and realized the Streaming services and KZbin would simply set the loudness of whatever you feed it to their preset standard, but recommended -1db of headroom I stopped caring immedeately. Now the limiter simply gets set to where I feel it adds without negatively impacting the sound, which for me and my mixes appear to be where it shaves 0-2db-ish of the louder transients with a -1 on the output. Thank you Dan.

[@dgwvjhth]

I agree

[@realraven2000]

its plenty loud on Spotify- sounds smooth and fits in well with music from Eli Ingram.

[@ononearts]

The voice of reason, and just good plain sense. Lacking elsewhere, I know I can always find a healthy spoonful here, and it all feels better once again.

[@Nikos_Mavridis]

Thank you!!!

[@oluwasegunyusuf8097]

Yeah, Dan you address the issue of loudness in your secret to maximum loudness 1&2... Which has nailed the whole issue of loudness war.

[@bdmcohen]

As a producer, you have no idea how satisfying it is to hear you say that about loudness. Musicality has absolutely no correlation to loudness

[@headspacetheace]

what Reaper theme is this, I've always liked the flat version of the Reaper 6 theme but having a darker theme looks bice

[@DanWorrall]

I just tweaked the default theme a bit. There's a colour tweaker script, and a more advanced theme editor script available somewhere... I fiddled with it aimlessly for five minutes, and it's not changed since.

[@headspacetheace]

@@DanWorrall I tried to fiddle with those a bit I just couldn't find a way to make it look good, I'll try it out again tho cuz Ive never been a fan of the Reaper grey, still love the simplicity of the default style though

[@stonail665]

I wish my clients watch this video. all they want is fat low dynamic master.

[@TazzSmk]

people enjoy good song arrangements, not good mixes in first place :)

[@JBehrMusic]

Dan you're a literal god among us. Thank you for your knowledge!

[@VigilSerus]

God that last tidbit really hits home. Cheers Dan!

[@AvithOrtega]

My dark Industrial electronic album has around -15 LUFS of integrated loudness, I don't care it sounds "quiet" at first because, as you said, once you turn up the volume knob you can feel those transients and good dynamic range that could have been lost if I decided to make it loud just for the sake of it. Thanks for still advocating at stopping this loudness war nonsense.

[@AvithOrtega]

​@@mal2ksc hopefully Spotify decreases the default loudness standard in the future as low as Apple has it now so that stops being a problem, I have in my spotify settings in the volume normalization set to "quiet" so the loudness parameter goes down to -18 LUFS and then there is no more volume changes, only more or less dynamic range songs

[@beezanteeum]

Do you still using Vegas Pro?

[@DanWorrall]

Yes. For now at least. It's the only video editor I know how to use.

[@eddiegee10go96]

Every audio engineer must hear this. 💯💯💯