Why is the Best Public Transit in the US at Disney World?

In this excerpt from the Not Just Bikes X Strong Towns podcast on public transit, Jason Slaughter and Chuck Marohn discuss why people are willing to spend so much money in Disney World to enjoy the kind of urbanism and public transit that is absent across North America, but doesn't have to be.
Links
Full podcast episode: • Not Just Bikes and Str...
Not Just Bikes: / notjustbikes
Strong Towns: www.strongtown...

[@een_schildpad]

Honestly I think a large part of it is that many of us just weren't aware of a better way. I've lived my whole life in Indiana and my first car was a beat up '86 Ford pickup that I loved. I associated riding the bus with poverty and desperation. Until a year ago, I simply wasn't aware of what the alternatives could be. I knew car crashes were common and deadly, but what can you do, we have to drive right? Just be careful I guess? About a year ago I stumbled on Jason's video about Dutch bikes that sent me on a path to seeing a whole different way. Since then, we sold one of our two cars, ride bikes everywhere, and chafe against the car dependency and lack of transit in our area. It makes me optimistic that big change is possible in NA, many of us just haven't realized what we are missing because car dependency is all we've ever known 🙃

[@swedneck]

Yup, this is true in most of the world, hell as evidenced by the early days of NJB it's even true in the netherlands!

[@krjett87]

I grew up in Indiana as well, it's definitely one of the most car dependent areas. It was a big wake up when we moved away to San Francisco, but we sold our last car a couple years ago and its just been a culture shock at times how easy life still is without one here.. of course most of our family finds it weird to hear that lol...

[@microproductions6]

I think you right about people not knowing that alternatives exist or just not knowing anything about the concept of urban planning and that places can be designed in different ways. To many people living in NA it's just the way it is so we think that's the way it must be. I think the first NJB video I watched was the one about stroads. And I think that got recommended to me after watching Adam Something's video about Dubai.

[@Mo-mu4er]

Great point, and your initial association of public transit and poverty is especially fascinating, as in many parts of the US, the transit system ends up acting as a stand-in for homeless resources. It's no wonder the image of public transit is so poor here.

[@autohmae]

We can see it in other areas of life, lots of people in the US assume the US already made the best choices. It's was never true, but it's even less true in these days than decades ago, like fairly recently after WW II

[@coletrain]

US ski towns also have free bus systems that get good use, plus gondolas to get to the lifts or around town.

[@smsimpson83]

Disney also added a Gondola system between some resorts which has been a big hit as well.

[@sirbossk]

And the biggest kicker about this mindset that public transit can't work in the US is that many of our cities used to have it! There was literally a time when LA had urbanism right. Now they've pretty much spent the past century undoing all of that. The problem is not that it can't work, it's that we've mangled our cities with car-centric development so badly that cars are the only option now.

[@a-r]

Very well put!

[@davewelike]

Went to Disney and the monorail shut down, then the boat line was too long so we went on the bus which had no line. At least they had different modes of transportation as walking wasn't possible.

[@lisarakic9285]

It seems to me, that there's this deeply held mindset in the US that only the poor take transit and that may be part of the reason people don't want transit in their town. Basically, classism is deterring it.

[@coletrain]

Or that transit works well, and they don't want the poor in their neighborhood. As an example, the STL Metrolink goes underground for two stops at Washington University/Clayton before coming up above ground.

[@Mo-mu4er]

This is probably because we've also somehow accepted that a lot of our transit systems are stand-ins for proper homeless resources.

[@b_uppy]

Public transit is so ghetto itself. You ride our school buses and that forms your first opinion of public transit. Service is often spotty in rural areas. Some drivers are rude. The rides can be too long and poorly conceptualized. Schedules are confusing. Even apps made to simplify are befuddling. Another point is that public transit is all you have at Disney, the alternative is walking. Pretty sure Disney made their coaches, trams, what-have-you very cheery, and as simple and convenient to use as possible.

[@TohaBgood2]

@@b_uppy And therein lies the rub! Disney did not want to build a ton of parking lots because that's insanely expensive to build and maintain, and it looks awful. They had to come up with a proper transportation system and they subsidize it from their other activities because the entire park makes many times more money if it has transit vs. the parking hellscape. Of course, they had to design their public transit in a way that it is pleasant and convenient to use. Because they want to make money! Unfortunately, our cities do the exact opposite. They build a bunch of awful and expensive parking lots and throw in a horrible "public transportation option" that is slow, poorly designed, unsafe, smelly, and dirty. Basically, we only want to pay for the type of transit that only someone who has absolutely no other option whatsoever would ever take. Transit is practically always built for someone else, not you! You pay for a few busses so that the "poors" don't clog up _your_ highway. Nothing will change until we decide to build the kind of transit that we ourselves would want to use, fast, clean, and safe, even luxurious. But that implies paying for that transit from taxes that the adjacent businesses will no doubt generate, just like in Disney's case. And that is not happening, sadly.

[@b_uppy]

@@TohaBgood2 Well Disney has zero bikes. So there is that. Lol. So much emphasis has been on urban transit but connecting it up has been neglected. We need to connect trains to the underserved rural areas, yet it is pretty cheap to buy land there compared to cities. West of the Mississippi freight drops off precipitously, new rail could add economic opportunities for shipping as well. The new rail could have freight ship during off hours/overnight to recoup costs faster.

[@definitelynotacrab7651]

Always boggles my mind that people can go to Europe, see how much better the transportation is and then come back to NA and not think hey why can't we have that here.

[@RochelleA]

The most ridiculous thing about the transit at Disney land is that due to a ridiculous law in Florida, you're required to fold up strollers and hold your stroller aged child on the bus. I haven't encountered this anywhere else in the world (granted, haven't taken a stroller on the bus in the US; when I road the bus with a baby in the US I used a carrier). This resulted in a lot of delays from needing to fold up the stroller and a lot of tired screaming kids woken up from their necessary naps after a long day at Disney.

[@elizabethwentzel1905]

You must fold up your stroller before you get on the bus in Long Beach CA. Yes, with the sleeping baby😫

[@juliebolthouse6581]

Just came home from a week in Disney, and this was honestly one of the most enjoyable aspects of the trip, we never really needed our car. The transit was also fun (with the exception of the long wait in the evening after the fireworks). We only used our car once to go to Blizzard Beach because it would have required a bus transfer and carrying a lot of stuff around the theme park we did in the morning. I think that’s another reason transit can be difficult, our life’s are too busy. We don’t enjoy the journey, we see it as a time suck. The 30 mins saved of course isn’t worth all the downsides of our auto centric society, but one person changing their behavior only loses 30mins because most of those downsides cant be eliminated unless everyone does it. Therefore the incentive to change behavior is very limited.

[@terrylong8894]

Disney offered to build a monorail system for the city of Anaheim FOR FREE and the city said no. When WALT DISNEY offers to build you cool shit you say yes.

[@ac1455]

Bad public transit access is literally lose lose for everyone except car companies: taxpayers and gov subsidize an inefficient transport system, poor people have to spend 20-30% of their income on a car, rich neighborhoods are worth less than what they’d be with transit access, emissions, increases frictional unemployment, decreases access to tourist hotspots, and a million other things.

[@b_uppy]

There are globalist-owned car companies car companies with American names but most of the manufacturing is elsewhere. Cars are a symbol of a bygone America, yet that is woefully overlooked in our psyches.

[@b_uppy]

We also need to look at the lack freight access. If the rail can serve double duty that increases the effectiveness of new rail. One possibility is that in some areas new rail could be limited to night/ passenger service priority. This would help increase business access in poorer, remote areas, recoup costs faster, as well as decrease shipping transport hub gluts. 'Decentralization' of rail by adding denser gridded rail is important. I suggest you look at maps of both passenger train service, as well as freight and look at the huge gaps out there. Two states have zero passenger service, many states with passenger rail well away from their urban centers. The trains across the central states are funneled through Chicago and NOLA, with most coming in and out of Chicago. WHY Chicago? (That's suspect in itself) Zero rail travels fully across the US's midline. Freight rail west of the Mississippi drops off considerably. Some freight transport is tied up for twenty years and smaller producers lack access to cheap shipping (source: Mark Shepard, Organic Valley Cooperative member, farmer, and author of Restoration Agriculture). If would be smart to look at the big picture and the sad state of rail overall instead of focusing on passenger rail alone.

[@peskypigeonx]

Thank god you said “take out NYC, DC, etc. off the list” at the start because I was going to bomb this comment section when I saw the title lol. Anyway, yeah as someone who did go to Disney World, I’m disappointed but not surprised about Disney World being better than most American cities

[@TohaBgood2]

The Bay Area also has incredibly good transit, especially San Francisco. In fact, BART and WMATA are basically twins. They were built at the same time and are virtually indistinguishable from the point of view of a visiting tourist. LA is trying to bring out the rear too. They are building a ton of new rail lines an already have an insane bus system. I would also say that Chicago has a way better transit system than DC.

[@simonboulanger7335]

This is exactly what's going on. The reason only Disney World has good transit is because Americans treat Europe the same way they treat Disney World: a place you visit, not a place you live in.

[@hendman4083]

But people from the suburbs don't live in cities either, yet when they visit a city they expect unlimited access and free parking for their cars....

[@simonboulanger7335]

@@hendman4083 They don't live in cities in the sense that their homes aren't in cities, but they do very much live in cities in the sense that much of their day-to-day life happens in a city.

[@b_uppy]

Better dispersement of rail would help instead of only thinking of 'city rail' only. Many people come in for sporting events, trade shows, etc and few need to haul anything home. Rail would be a major way to get rid of glut and pollution and conflicting traffic patterns. We need to concentrate on rail in rural areas where it is much cheaper to build while improving overall usership. A way to defray costs is to add freight to the rail during off hours, giving preference to passenger rail but increasing overall shipping ability in smaller areas.

[@KRYMauL]

@@b_uppy Isn't this what a lot of the inflation reduction and chips act is doing.

[@b_uppy]

@@KRYMauL That's stroking companies that make electric vehicles. That's different from providing access to public transportation for the disabled, elderly and poor. It's subsidizing the upper middle class and the rich's cars...

[@rogerb3654]

Urban sprawl makes public transit impossible or heavily subsidized (therefore, unsustainable).

[@TheRuralUrbanist]

Please make part of this into a short!

[@mitch8072]

isnt 4 minutes short enough?

[@kpopgrrl]

Having lived in Disney Housing and worked at 2 different Walt Disney World resorts while also visiting all of the parks over 4 months, Disney Transportation is not as good as it's made out to be. It's better than metro Orlando's Lynx bus system but that's an incredibly low bar. This was 15 years ago but I've heard it's only gotten worse, in that time span a person died because of a monorail accident. The monorail only goes among the parks and AFAIK to/from one resort. Within the parks and resorts, some of which are massive, transit is very lacking and mostly requires a lot of walking. They have special transportation for those with mobility issues but I've heard complaints about that as well

[@whosestone]

Seattle, I enjoy Seattle more than DC. Boston is also pretty good.

[@christianchellis9057]

But do you know how much they have to pay for that transit.

[@roxyb03]

The more relaxed conditions during vacation may reduce the sense of needing to personally control their mode of transportation. Many Americans also seem to have an almost allergic reaction to the idea of paying taxes needed to provide public services. Lastly & sadly, I am afraid elitism may also be a major factor regarding willingness to use shared transportation at Disney World vs public municipal transportation. Disney World's economic exclusivity provides an environment in which tourists only have to share space with people they are likely to feel comfortable with .

[@lucasprestenbach9348]

i forget these two men have faces

[@hugoboyce9648]

Disney as the new mass transit contractor for American cities confirmed!? /jk

[@rehurekj]

Buses do rather suck. Im Czech, we got decent public transport, but most ppl naturally prefer stuff on rails or even troleybuses, anything with permanent structures, and even better if its running at least partially separated from car traffic, over buses, those are only for smallish towns, suburbs or villages, but not the core of public transport for any decent sized city. I remember there was even some study ten+ yrs ago about flats in Prague and how their desirability and value/ price, both for owners and renters, increases if they are located on or close to streets with tram line or metro station compared with buses, which are nowadays mostly used as feeders for metro or as temporary replacement of trams.

[@b_uppy]

Buses make sense as feeders, as they are flexible and can respond readily to changes in ridership. Trolleys, etc do make more sense, but they must be handicapped accessible and most fail in that way in the US.

[@ivoivanov7407]

@@b_uppy what is the problem with handy caped access in trolleys? A trolley is a bus, but with connector to the grid.

[@b_uppy]

@@ivoivanov7407 The trolleys around here lack that.

[@Simqer]

Why does Jason have a Belgian numberplate ???

[@wturner777]

He mentioned in one of his videos that years ago he traveled all over the world for work.

[@VacuousCat]

What if disney world get their customers on bicycles?

[@braddabug8598]

Wait, what? The bus service at Disney World is terrible. Yeah, maybe it's better than most American public transit, but that's faint praise. Don't use Disney World as an example of *good* public transit.

[@wturner777]

That's not what the tourists say.

[@Cotswolds1913]

In short, because its the one place where private enterprise was allowed to build and maintain something top-to-bottom with little to no restriction.

[@Marconius6]

Actual medieval streets are often a bit of a nightmare for transit, way too narrow.

[@b_uppy]

There is still the strong association of patriotism (buy American!) in American car ownership. One of the reasons to convert to more train and bike travel is that the US no longer has a car industry. Much of it is built overseas. We support a lot of money into overseas manufacturing and to the benefit of globalist elitists ran megacorporate conglomerates. Rail and bike trails are lousy in that they are insufficient in the US and that needs to be addressed with vigor. We need to build density of the grid in rural and remote areas where it is cheap to buy land and infill rails and trails there first instead of concentreating on big cities. Wonder if Disney uses its tram system to restock overnight...

[@red_skies80]

You know, it’s funny how much people truly appreciate good city design and infrastructure when they’re not the ones paying for it.

[@redknightsr69]

@Jason,Brostachio!

[@ElisaAvigayil]

You can't bring DC transit into the conversation. The Purple Line failed.

[@JakeRoot]

Who’s interviewing who here?

[@ShawFujikawa]

It's a podcast, not an interview, and it's hosted by Strong Towns with Not Just Bikes as a guest.

[@allocater2]

So weird hearing the narrator voice coming out this guy.

[@azbos22]

You're asking the wrong question. I was reading an article about US higher education and came across this piece of information which was sourced to Psychology Today: "The rate of students taking psychiatric medication doubled between 2007 and 2019, and is now at 25 percent." So that's a pre-pandemic stat. Why is that? Why are one in four of our best and brightest on psychiatric medication? Could it have anything to do with.. I don't know.. the alienation of needing to be driven everywhere from birth? The crushing let down after going on vacation to walkable cities? Sure, the rise of "social" media plays a role as does the increasingly competitive nature of modern living but "competitive" is frequently code for "expensive" and expensive comes from ballooning debt to pay for infrastructure and suburban housing and the military. And the infrastructure costs and the suburban sprawl and the military costs of dollar-denominated oil are directly related to car dependency. People are trapped. It is no longer possible to "drop out" of the rat race without ending up on the streets. People know all this, their kids know this, hence the cognitive dissonance between the 'dream' and the reality. I don't want to say its hopeless but you're up against something much larger and much more sinister than simple inertia. Best of luck.

[@iivin4233]

You know why...

[@jellybeansi]

It would be nice if you reached out to other youtubers besides NJB. Their demeanor/approach may not be the best way to reach a large portion of a potential audience.

[@sammymarrco2]

I’d love to see city beautiful on here

[@NotJustBikes]

lol

[@jellybeansi]

@@NotJustBikes ...Wow, seriously? That's all? A lot of people don't respond to remarks that sound condescending and yes, you do that a lot with the "car go vroom vroom car brain" schtick. I'm not even going to mince words here.

[@jellybeansi]

Anyways, @Strong Towns, the immaturity of his comment above, which is responding to a pretty candid comment I wrote, kinda speaks for itself.

[@Demystar]

1+ for City Beautiful, love his stuff (Also- not helping your case Slaughter smdh)