Not Just Bikes and Strong Towns Discuss Public Transit in North America

"It's nothing to do with the population of the city and everything to do with - when you step off that transit vehicle, where are you?"
In this episode, Chuck welcomes back Jason Slaughter, producer of Not Just Bikes, to the Strong Towns Podcast, where they discuss one of his recent videos, “America Always Gets This Wrong (when building transit).”
Jason and Chuck go in depth about some of the absurdities of our modern transit system and the urban deserts they tend to drop riders off at-bringing to light some reasons why people don’t want to use public transit. They also debunk the reasons some DOTs use for why we can’t have better transit, and what the process for building efficient public transportation systems should look like.
For Further Information:
Strong Towns: www.strongtowns.org/stmedia
Not Just Bikes: / notjustbikes
“America Always Gets This Wrong (when building transit)”: • America Always Gets Th...
Strong Towns on public transit: www.strongtowns.org/journal/c...

[@bow-tiedengineer4453]

I'm so used to Jason being a disembodied slightly snarky voice surrounded by happy cyclists and pedestrians that it's always weird to see him as an actual human in an office. Still great to see a Collab like this!

[@NotJustBikes]

lol. My channel started out as a more "talking head" style, but I quickly realized that it would be much more interesting (and useful) to show the _street_ rather than me in a studio. I'm glad I did it that way, because I really don't want people to focus on me, I want them to focus on what the city looks like.

[@bow-tiedengineer4453]

@@NotJustBikes I definitely agree, it just means that whenever you do an interview or whatever, I'm like "Oh, yeah, that's what his face looks like." Seriously, though, love your content. While America itself has done a decent job a disillusioning me about cars, it's been so nice seeing someone who really knows what life in an area where a private car is a luxury item is like. Really puts things into context. I've very much taken the orange pill, as the saying has become, and I've been giving it to all my friends. I even managed to get the instructor of my online driver's ed course to realize just how ridiculous car centric infrastructure is.

[@advokatie]

@@NotJustBikes just make every video how you normally would but all the footage is just you staring at the camera

[@dirtyfilthystinky]

LOLLL "a disembodied slightly snarky voice surrounded by happy cyclists and pedestrians" perfectly describes it hahahaha

[@bg7893]

Seeing the person somehow changes the way they sound. You can still hear his voice mannerisms but it seems different.

[@saitaro]

With a last name like that, Jason Slaughter could have formed a thrash metal band that was destined for success, but he chose to promote the good cities. What a hero.

[@friddevonfrankenstein]

Or become the main protagonist in a series of splatter movies :D Either way, Jason Slaughter is simply such a badass name.

[@NotJustBikes]

Thanks for the chat, Chuck! I forgot that Chuck asked me to speak Dutch, and clearly I was not interested at all, as I didn't even try. 😂 My subreddit has decided the best translation would be something like, "Blijf doen wat je kan om te bouwen aan Strong Towns". Any native Dutch speakers out there want to give their thoughts on the best non-literal translation?

[@hendman4083]

Zet je beste beentje voor, en blijf werken aan een sterker Strong Towns!

[@nextlifeonearth]

Gaan met die banaan

[@Pystro]

Mach weiter was du kannst um starke Städte zu bauen. (One country to the east of what you asked for, but hey.)

[@rogerwilco2]

Je bent goed bezig met Strong Towns, ga vooral zo door! Less literal translations often work better, but you need a real mastery of a language before you can manage those. I applaud your efforts to learn a new language as an adult. Goed zo, blijf vooral doorgaan! You might want to look up "Ramses Shaffy - We zullen doorgaan"

[@Paul_C]

It is about time for Chuck to take a trip to NL. Just to experience it.

[@AmyDentata]

As someone who lives in the US and has never had a driver's license, you can feel contempt radiating off of almost all the transit systems in this country. When you find a tiny little oasis of real infrastructure, you never want to leave. But the oases are, like, a single block or neighborhood.

[@bow-tiedengineer4453]

I feel that. I've been forced into getting my license over the past couple years. My college is in one of those oases you talk about, it's connected to a tiny bus hub with reliable hourly service, and I can go anywhere I need to from campus by bus and bike, because the busses have bike racks. Unfortunately, my home county's transit is atrocious, so I'm being forced to get my license so I can drive home, even though it's less than an hour's drive away. I have gone home by bus and bike before, but being outside of a car in my home county is terrifying.

[@timsoel566]

Question from a non-American. In a different video Jason talked about how this disrespect for transit users creeps into the wider culture, where people starting to disrespect eachother on a interpersonal level if they find out your a transit user ('grow up and get a car'). Is that a wide spread fenomenon and have you experienced it yourself?

[@haighter5115]

@@timsoel566 I don't think most people would tell you to "grow up" if you take the bus. They might say that if you ride a bike though. I think most people see buses as existing for the purposes of the homeless and destitute, so they may call you "poor" if you ride the bus.

[@KRYMauL]

Every city I go, I’ll try to walk. I end up wanting a car.

[@mcc.o.4835]

Also in the US. Quite by accident I stumbled into an area that has okay bike infrastructure and not terrible transit. I can do 80ish percent of my daily needs by bike. Most of what I need can be gotten within a 3 mile radius. I feel very fortunate. Watching Not Just Bikes has really opened my eyes. I dream of what life is like with great transit and infrastructure.

[@chrispnw2547]

Jason transformed my life. 20 years ago (like many people), I wanted the large home on an acre of land which required moving to the outer edge of a city for new construction. At the time the mindset was 'who needs sidewalks?' and the Southeastern subdivision has minimal sidewalks and no bike lanes. You must drive at minimum 4 miles to get to a main thoroughfare. I never questioned the building choices are this was the norm. Approximately 5 years ago, we were given an opportunity work anywhere we wanted so we moved to the San Francisco Bay Area to a city 45 minutes from San Francisco by public transport (BART) which requires a 5 minute walk to the station. We shipped one of our cars with us and over the past 4 years have only put 2,500 miles on the vehicle. Every type of store (basics to high-end) is approximately a 15-minute walk. The city has dedicated bike lanes and trails to navigate the city. Access to rail (Amtrak) is a 30 minute ride by public transport and 90 minutes to SFO airport. I can't imagine going back to the old mindset of living in a car dependent city. Retirement is approximately 10-years away and we are looking for our next home that offers a similar non car dependent lifestyle. I would like it to be in Canada but are open to any European city. We have read Confessions of a Recovering Engineer and use it as a reference book on the topic. Thank you for waking us up from our car-dependent slumber.

[@Wig4]

Do you mean: Berkeley ? :-) (A Belgian here)

[@thereisnospoon205]

@@Wig4 not the OP but as a person who lives in the area, yeah it sounds like they mean Berkeley

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@Wig4 ...Does a Part 2 to this here exist on the Channel 'Some More News', i wonder?

[@Wig4]

@@slevinchannel7589 I do not know why you ask this to me. How can I know ? .. :-)

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@Wig4 You can watch and ocmpare!

[@kevley26]

A ton of people in the US say they live in a rural area when what they really live in is a suburb or medium- small town. They vastly overestimate how much population density counts as rural.

[@BirdmanDeuce26]

Same in Canada too. Met more than a few people who think not living near the major cities automatically qualifies them as "rural."

[@Jazzmaster1992]

I live in Tampa Bay which is notorious for endless sprawl. "Rural areas" inland, away from cities, are constantly full of traffic. It blows my mind the juxtaposition between what obviously *should* be a rural area, inundated by traffic lights, stroads, and strip malls. Areas that should be low on traffic are not, because everyone is forced to have a car here, there are NO alternatives. To get from A to B, you will often travel on narrow two lane roads that very much seem like they were designed for low traffic volume, yet carry ridiculous amounts of traffic and have long lines at stop lights, indicating they are well over capacity. Of course, everything is so spread out that walking is impossible. Many areas do not even have sidewalks.

[@johncounts2182]

part of this is that if you live in a suburb, you might as well be living in a rural area with regards to access to the places you would want to go. due to government regulations, there can be nothing but housing as far as the eye can see. they're not in the middle of nowhere, sure, but there is indeed nothing around. government causes problems. remove the government boot, and people will build nice things and will thrive. nobody wants to need their car, but when transit marxists say they want to take away people's cars, they get defensive because they do need them despite not wanting to need them. without onerous regulations, the market would provide alleviation to the problem of driving being a chore for most people at most times

[@leahwilton785]

As someone from north america who grew up in a small town (~6000 ppl) who now lives in a much more densely populated area, it always astounds me when folks say theyre from a small town and mean a suburb city of hundreds of thousands of people.

[@obimk1-ms1jw]

FACTS about by "small" EU city: - just below 200000 occupants - 2 Train Stations - We have a central bus station with 20 lines - 10 for the city (every 6 minutes) - 10 for regional routes (every 30 minutes)

[@LilBoyHexley]

The Disney World thing is a great point because even in cities that don't typically have good transit, when there are healthy walkable pockets and locations with great transit service, people generally love it. No one says Disney World would be improved if they had to go back to their car, drive, and park again to move between parks. And similarly people love it when they can be somewhere and have a *full* day without ever needing to get into their car.

[@gelinrefira]

I lived in Singapore now. I just traveled halfway across the island to another mall that has a restaurant that I really want to dine in, then caught a movie there and now I'm back in the comfort of my home typing this. I do not own a car. A good public transportation is a force multiplier for strong cities and a strong economy.

[@anubizz3]

Yeah the keyword is public transport not Protected bike-line like this people promote....Sadly NJB will never mention Singapore because you can clearly he dislike high rise tower , he can only accept 2-3 storey apartment block THE AMSTERDAM way.... that's why he rarely mention how rubbish AMSTERDAM public transport. He want NA want to follow an example from a flat tiny city that cannot even do TOD properly. I live in TOD city , what the norm is there is Big tower and shopping district with underground parking just outside Public Transport hub, then smaller development apartment, then town house, then single family home. that what TOD suppose to look like and give everyone a choice. Not Amsterdam way of small apartment outside the station, then small apartment , then small apartment , then small apartment and of cause protected bike-line.

[@repelsteeltje90]

​@@anubizz3 You seem to think that bicycle infrastructure and public transport are mutually exclusive. They are not.

[@anubizz3]

@@repelsteeltje90 oh really... give me an example.

[@ageoflove1980]

@@anubizz3 Use the internet? Darn you are lazy? The largest bike parking in the world, 12,000 places, is at Utrecht Central Station, the largest train station in the country. The whole point of The Netherlands is the intergration of cycling and public transport infrastructure. 50% of all train journeys start with a bike ride. This is all public information you can easily Google so please stop trolling.

[@anubizz3]

@@ageoflove1980 Oh really you so proud about 207,360 passenger per day Station that needed 12,000 bike parking that show how pathetic Netherlands public transport are ..... Go to Singapore and see how public transport should be operate in small city.......without the need of secondary transport and its parking..... maybe you the one that need Internet because Netherlands is No 38 most car ownership in the world with 588 car per 1000 person while Singapore no 117 with 149 person.. how about Hong Kong another city with excellent public transport OMG they no 132 with only 109 car per person.... If your city and country is TINY and Flat and more than 50% its people have car + needing a bike , there is nothing to brag about, its show you fail on something you try to preach on other people, At least try to beat Denmark first to become the best country for biking , because you fail on other metric.

[@lizcademy4809]

When Chuck mentioned transit as a charity project, I had to stop the video and comment. I live in an urban area in a big city in the upper midwest, USA. I am most definitely not poor. It's one of those rare places where I can walk for all of my weekly errands, walk or take a frequent bus to work, and take transit to most other places I need to go to. After I moved here, I got rid of my car. For a few months, I need to visit a medical clinic outside my neighborhood. There's a bus from outside my office building that goes right past the clinic. The route is more of a typical American bus route - runs every 30 minutes, is often late, and takes 3 times as long as a car does. The worst part was, it was absolutely clear that this route was intended for those who could not afford car, or were unable to drive for other reasons. It was dirty and smelly, nobody was polite, and as I said, it took 40 minutes to go 10 miles on lightly trafficked roads. As I said, I am not poor. After one trip on the bus, I now use rideshares for my clinic visits. This is a vicious cycle with American transit. It's so inconvenient that anyone who can will avoid it, and governments don't want to sink billions into underused projects. [My city is developing more transit, but not along this corridor.] So transit becomes the worst way to travel, and those who can do so, avoid it even more.

[@sandal_thong8631]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[@PeterSdrolias]

The car industry does not want us to raise the floor in North America.

[@StrikingCrayon]

Luckily they're incompetent, insolvent, or don't agree. Ford is the only one left, and Tesla wants to be a taxi.

[@peterslegers6121]

Car ownership in the Netherlands has never been as high as now. That includes the car infested 1970's. When you make streets safe for all, driving a car is actually a more pleasant experience as well.

[@davidty2006]

@@StrikingCrayon Hmmm Ford is the main one with strong foreign market.

[@recyclespinning9839]

The airline industry also. You land in any city and you need a car , unless your going to work in the center city , and even then it depends on what times, , or schedule..

[@loubydal7812]

We have to vote for whom really wants to end the car dependant tyranny, and has the willingness to work for the people, for places to enjoy life, not for money from big corporate interests and corrupt administrations.

[@livelaughlove8181]

It drives me insane how low the floor is in North America. I recently moved to real London from Toronto and I'm not even bothered by tube delays or slightly out of the way transit connections cause I can still get to where I am. Train and bus delays are so much worse in Toronto, and if any line gets shut down, there are little to no alternatives... 😒

[@phueal]

Welcome to real London!

[@eriklakeland3857]

So, land use aside, what's the number 1 thing that can be done to raise the floor of transit in the US? Subsidizing operations. That way we could get grids of frequent buses in our cities and respectable, multihub systems in smaller towns - giving the transit backbone for future capital investments to build on. That doesn't address the average speed and reliability of the buses, but frequency and coverage is the base requirement that has to come from annual investments in operations.

[@fernthaisetthawatkul5569]

you are so right, after coming back from my trip to london i saw locals comment online about how awful the tube is compared to other european metros, when to me it felt like transit heaven! to give you an idea of how low my standards were, i felt only a mild twinge of annoyance by the idea of having to take a delayed piccadilly line to heathrow during peak hours.

[@bradleydawson9043]

I lived in Arlington Texas. Some somewhat decent bike trails. But, get this, they BRAG that they are the largest city in the US without Public Transit. They are clogged with cars. In Austin, the buses are subsidized by the university. Buses come by every 3 minutes, often two at a time. You are supposed to have a student ID to ride but they never check and the buses mostly go to and from the university. But that is what it is needed. The destination is the journey in this case. It doesn't have to be a university. It doesn't have to be downtown. The thing is, the cities are built around cars. The transit cannot drop you off in a good place, because there are no good places to drop you off. All the destinations are terrible because of huge parking lots and strip malls.

[@Reanimator999]

Parking lots and strip mall = Utter Desolation.

[@danieldaniels7571]

The bus stops at strip malls could be directly in front of the anchor stores, but they rarely ever are.

[@safe-keeper1042]

It's just mind boggling that they really consider such integral infrastructure as public transportation some kind of neccesasary evil that they wouldn't need if only everyone could buy a car already.

[@mangos2888]

Oil-based economy. You won't get it except to leave.

[@grantd.335]

Buses in Austin certainly aren’t for the university only, they can be used by anyone but they’re free for students with their university ID. Most people who use them aren’t students but the buses around campus have a ton of students on them, and there are a few (only like 4-5) bus lines that specifically go around the campus area.

[@kcazllerraf]

Love this quote "You can look at that kind of transit like a walking accelerator, right? So you've got a walkable neighborhood, where you've got most of the things you need within walking distance of your house, and that's fine. But every once in a while you're going to need to go a little bit farther. [. . .] So you hop on a tram, or you hop on a bus to get there and it's a walking accelerator. But the idea is that when you get out of that stop, you're still in a walkable area. Maybe in between it could be farms for all I know but the point is when you get off of that rapid transit stop you're somewhere where you can walk to your destination. And fundamentally this is what we're missing in North America."

[@ab-tf5fl]

I love that quote too. It also gets into an interesting point: when there is no transit, you can't really walk any further than you are absolutely sure you will be willing and able to walk back. This often means driving a car a short distance that is easily walkable, just in case you get tired or the weather turns bad. With good transit, however, you can walk as far as you want and *then* decide how to get back when it's time to go back. If you're in the mood, you can walk back, or if you want a break, you hop on the "walking accelerator". You're not committed to driving back in the car you took the other way, no matter what. This is a simple example about how transit encourages walkability in ways that cars do not.

[@autohmae]

@@ab-tf5fl in the Netherlands, lots of bikes at the train station. That increases the distances between the 'rapid transit' and the destination.

[@markthompson180]

@@autohmae - I live in Martinsburg West Virginia, and I am lobbying the City Council to install bike racks at our train station (which is right downtown, and has commuter rail to Washington DC). I don't know why this was not done until now, but I believe bike racks should be part of almost every train station. PS - I was an exchange student in the Netherlands in the late 1980s and the Dutch are amazing at transportation.

[@garyharty1902]

I never miss an episode of Jason Slaughter's NOT JUST BIKES. And I love hearing as the guest of other podcasters such as Strong Towns, Active Towns, and The War On Cars. Thanks so much.

[@therealdutchidiot]

I think I like the podcasts so much because he clarifies what he really means during the podcasts instead of just stopping short of an actual explanation.

[@PeterSdrolias]

I love NJB so much, I bought the tshirt.

[@ncard00]

Instead of fixing Suburbia in the US, the US should just contribute to reducing emissions by building a high speed rail interstate network, electrify their freight lines, switch to EV's, get their energy from renewables, and consume less meat, cause these guys here talked for 1hour about how you can't fix suburbia basically, so why bother, never go for the perfect solution, but go for cost/benefit solutions that actually work, are realistic, and make an actual difference.

[@morganahoff2242]

24:24 You hit the nail on the head: public transit systems treat people like grounded teenagers, "YOU WAIT THERE UNTIL I COME AND GET YOU!" Building a system that first and foremost treats people with respect would go a long way.

[@angellacanfora]

This was a really interesting discussion. I live in Torrance, California, a suburb of LA that was built around a century-old oil refinery that is still in operation. While there is a cute, walkable, mixed use downtown - "Old Torrance" - most of the city is full of horrible stroads. Today, I had to drop my car off for servicing and decided to walk the 2 miles home. I'm a daily walker and couldn't help but notice there seemed to be an attitude from drivers and other walkers, one of surprise and even some scorn and it occurred to me that people who NEED to walk as transportation may be seen as pariahs or indigent in LA. On my daily walks, I don't encounter attitude but I did today and the difference was that I was walking because I had to and it probably showed - I had a backpack and was on the boulevard rather than in a park. It hadn't occurred to me that walking out of necessity could be a stigma but perhaps it is in LA. I hate being car-dependent but I think as long as the refinery exists, nothing will change in Torrance anytime soon.

[@Erintii]

I was in Vista, California for work and travel student program in 2005. One day I decided to walk to see the neighbourhood as I was curious, as I am European I am used to walk. People were stopping cars and ask why I am walking, do I need a ride or is my car broken. When I explain I am student and walk for fun they looked at as if I was insane.

[@angellacanfora]

@@Erintii It's probably just stroad-walking that alarms people. Drivers wondering why on earth we'd want to walk there!

[@Erintii]

@@angellacanfora You are right I guess. Now I felt similar after learning more about zoning, urban development but back them it was kind of weird to me. In Europe most neighborhoods are walkable so one notice, but US is a different story. I remember how I disliked how the city looked, and this was stroad, no trees near side walk, narrow side walk etc. But there were side walks there and even Anderson's store. American landlady was shocked we are walking 500 or 600 m to a store not driving. She looked at us as we were insane and we were shocked she was shocked. For her it was why to walk if you have a car, for us why to drive if you can walk.

[@josephfisher426]

Maybe there's a big helping of California in that. I had to take my car to the dealer a few months ago while the other car happened to be in the shop already, and didn't want to inconvenience anyone so I walked back, and then later walked a nearly equal distance of 4.5 miles to get the rental. No one batted an eye. But I was only on the main road where the dealership is for a couple blocks...

[@AniaPC]

I agree there is a very negative association here with walking or using mass transit. It is like that here in FL as well. But I also noticed that people that think this way have never experienced a normally working mass transit. I am not from here and when I explain people that what my city of Orlando needs is a really good mass transit instead of I4 ultimate project they just think I am some crazy green person. They just don’t know. On the other hand years of using car to go EVERYWHERE makes you lazy to walk. I hear a lot of voices that it is insane to walk 1/2 mile to the bus stop or train station. I see parents dropping of kids at a School bus stop so that they don’t have to walk 1/2 mile… as adults they will never walk

[@AirLancer]

It can be funny how disconnected people are from reality even in areas that DO have significant public transit like NYC. Can't count the amount of comments in some videos claiming how "nobody takes the train anymore" despite ridership literally being in the millions per day. Down from pre-pandemic numbers sure, but those trains and busses aren't running empty. People are awful at considering an existence outside of themselves, if *they* don't take the train anymore then clearly *nobody* does!

[@machtmann2881]

Americans assume everyone lives like they do and project their lifestyle onto others, even though there are hundreds of millions of us so that's impossible. There's a reason we have a reputation for being self-centered.

[@mindacarpenter2996]

I saw one claiming NYC was a car city. It's the place with the lowest car ownership rate in the US, but apparently it's a car city. Also busses only need like 4 people aboard before they are more efficient in terms of space and fuel than those people driving. I'm not sure what the number is for trains.

[@sandal_thong8631]

I like to pretend they say that because they have stock in oil and car companies, and are just liars, rather than being ignorant, since we live in a time of lies and liars who go unchecked.

[@nickwannn]

my favorite cinematic universe crossover

[@atelesh]

I moved to the United States from a post-soviet country in eastern Europe a year ago knowing almost nothing about the US. And now I realize how lucky I was when chose a place to live. We’ve got pretty wide sidewalks, 10 minutes walking to the nearest village with supermarkets, coffee shops and a few restaurants. And this is not a downtown with all the crime and homeless people, it’s a suburban city. It’s not as good as I got used to, but still not that bad. Now, after watching Jason’s videos and seeing alternatives, I’m afraid of moving anywhere else within the United States.

[@Reanimator999]

You really have to some research if you plan to move to a different suburban city by visiting for few days. Also ask around.

[@burby_geek]

there are lots of soviet refugees all over the USA. large ukrainian community around denver. a lot of people moved to car dependent places and have no problems

[@blueninja012]

@@burby_geek I don't understand, are you trying to say that car dependent places are good? like yeah tons of people live in them without problems (at least not ones they realize exist) but that doesn't mean they're good for anyone

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@blueninja012 Does a Part 2 to this here exist on the Channel 'Some More News'?

[@kloewe6069]

What Eastern European country was that? I love Slavic language and culture and have been trying to research about places where I can visit that still have good infrastructure/walk-ability, but it's so hard to find about countries not in western or central Europe.

[@matthewconstantine5015]

Living just outside of Washington DC, I feel so much of this. If you live within city limits, the DC transit isn't bad. But unfortunately, living where I'm at, you're lucky if the bus stop is paved, much less have a bench or a covered stop. They're almost all on stroads or just straight-up roads/highways. Most buses are at best on a 30 minute schedule, but most commonly on a 60 minute schedule...not that they arrive on schedule.

[@machtmann2881]

I grew up just outside DC in NOVA. Using public transit was trash (so much of my life wasted on stroads like Rt 7). Sometimes the bus doesn't even come and you have to wait for the next one. Walking to the grocery store was actually dangerous because I had to go along an unpaved path next to slopes and next to 45mph stroads (so if you're disabled, it's impossible to get around). But most people don't bat an eye because they think that's the best it can ever be 🤷‍♂

[@matthewconstantine5015]

@@machtmann2881 Rt 7 is TERRIBLE. The good news is that I believe they're actually (finally) doing something about it. I believe they're putting in some sort of path/side-walk along a fairly substantial length of 7. I'm closer to 29 & 50, which have much the same problem. Sometimes there's a sidewalk, but often there isn't, and often the "bus stop" is just a post in the lawn with no sidewalk or access to nearby neighborhoods or anything. And there's still no way to get from Fairfax to Annandale, as Little River Turnpike doesn't have a sidewalk for about a 2 or 3 mile stretch between the two towns. There have been some big improvements in recent years, but it's WAY too little, and the fact that it's only happening now is unbelievable.

[@sammymarrco2]

i live near manassas, litterly one bus line 3 miles from my house with 1.5 hour headways. One comuuters bus is closer and it goes to tysons metro but thats not very useful unless you work there

[@sandal_thong8631]

The last time I took bus in DC suburbs we lived in Newington, down the street from a bus yard! But our road didn't have bus service, and you couldn't catch a bus next to the bus yard. So my first choice was to walk to Springfield Mall (being passed by buses that didn't serve that street) with the first mile not having a sidewalk. My second choice I had to walk on the street for a half mile the other way (still no sidewalk) to get to another street with a bus stop with 1-hour or longer gap between service. Then take that bus that meandered through neighborhoods until it got to a main cross-stroads so I could transfer to another bus going to the mall. One time I tried to take the 1 o'Clock bus and two buses ran past the bus stop where I and this other guy were standing, at least one saying "out of service." The next bus was due after 3 PM. I walked home and called them up. When I met up with that driver, he said he thought we weren't waiting for the bus but part of the work-crew pulled-over nearby!

[@azbos22]

Thank you, gents, you've really opened my eyes to the connections between carbon burning, car-dependency, fiscal sustainability and urban design. It made me realize that electric cars, per se, are not the key to the future we want. Even if we could magically switch every private and public vehicle to electric tomorrow, it would do nothing to solve the "growth ponzi scheme", congestion, sprawl, alienation and all the consequences that flowed from letting car companies rip up our streetcars. Also, thanks to you, my kids can't go anywhere without pointing out "stroads". Once we saw them we can no longer not see them. As annoying as this can be, watching your videos with my kids has implanted a consciousness in how they see their local environment that is priceless. I'm dropping hints that their next school projects should be around themes they've learned from Strong Towns and NJB. Thank you and keep it up.

[@sluggo206]

Cars also take up more space than transit, so it pushes everything apart and makes it less walkable. Every car has 2.5 parking spaces on average (one at home, one at work, a shared one at the supermarket). Every parking space requires space behind it for the car to get the car in and out. Moving cars need space between them to avoid collisions. Most cars have only one person in them, while a bus can have fifty people. Los Angeles is medium-density because of the parking minimums.

[@spartahill]

Great discussion. San Antonio, TX, as of the 2020 census, has a population of 1.5M, and not unlike London, Canada, only has traffic-pronged bus transit. Moreover, alternatives like active transport, i.e., walking and cycling, are at best awkward and challenging. However, in many instances, any sort of transport outside a motor vehicle is outright dangerous. To make matters worse, due partly to the riverwalk, which makes up a fraction of the downtown business corridor, San Antonio has the undeserving reputation of being a walkable city when the opposite is true.

[@KRYMauL]

Every city **usually** has a “walkable” corridor. San Antonio should have multiple “river walks” to be “walkable.” I’m using quotes because these things should be called a traditional canal city.

[@johnforestersworstnightmar3756]

Whenever I see a Texas city, I feel like they watched all Not Just Bikes videos and decided to do the exact things that Jason complains about.

[@jackbates7467]

It will be interesting to see if San Antonio catches up to Austin, at least we're building a rail network.

[@mostlyguesses8385]

. ... San Antonio or US isnt super unsafe, if 1 in 10,000 chance of death makes you choose car costing you 25% of your labor to support that is letting fear have too much power. You really have to do the math, don't just "feel" walking seems dangerous, you've been trained by yuppies that anything not a car is unsafe, do the math, is a car worth it... India walking is 100x more dangerous yet it doesn't make them piss their pants. I sound mean, but rethink if walking is too dangerous. I walked and biked and kickscooted in Houston and compared to Minnesota frozen hell Texas is wonderful.. with cellphones to entertain walk half-hour to work, why not? .... I was often only person walking along freeways but I'm out in sun and plenty of grass, Texas is walkable if not soft. . . Dallas is best, San Antonio next, Houston is sweaty.... I am exaggerating a bit, but compared to MN or Europe the Texas weather is heaven just bring change of clothes.... I am exaggerating but I do mostly walk, here in Kemah Texas..... 2. People also need to stop thinking that need to go to shops and eateries 5 miles away dailly, our grandparents didn't, when did city have to have transit for yuppie nightlife, and we started to listen to girls saying gotta bar hop each night. Walk home from work then stay there each night... Or I could be wrong, just suggesting ..

[@spartahill]

@@mostlyguesses8385 Sounding mean isn't the issue; however, being willfully uninformed detracts from the conversation. The previous comments are grounded in years of objective research rather than subjective conjecture. Moreover, the topic speaks to the broader context regarding the lived experience of marginalized communities. Indeed, it isn't my objective to minimize anyone's opinion, though I suspect our observations are the product of different lenses.

[@mcc.o.4835]

Wonderful talk. I'm at a crossroads. I'm at a point where I need to buy a new car, but I'm really resisting. I'd much rather take transit and bike, or walk. The benefits of not owning a car are significant.

[@nickwannn]

same! over the last year I went from perusing electric vehicles and motorbikes to planning a move out of America hahaha

[@mcc.o.4835]

@@nickwannn Wow cool. Where are you going?

[@travisalbert276]

My car was recently totalled in a hit and run. I decided not to get another one and to see how long I can hold out. I used insurance money to buy a nice e-bike. Between that and bus pass, I'm making it work ok. Just have to wait to see if it's still possible come winter.

[@mcc.o.4835]

@@travisalbert276 Oh man sorry to hear about your car. I hope the eBike bus works out for you.

[@77cicero77]

@@travisalbert276 Similar story here, though I’m probably going to have to have the car for winter. I think if there was a decent car-share program in my area, I could’ve done it; maybe one in your area could work for you?

[@DavidLeeKersey]

You know that Not Just Bikes videos get shared a lot as the channel has only ~800k subs but many of his videos get 2-4 million views. Hopefully this will help get more people to push for better and more sustainable urban/suburban planning.

[@Iliadic]

It's likely due to people rewatching the videos because they're fun to watch/listen to.

[@christopherderrah3294]

Seattle is in the process of building a rail network. Some areas/stations are being done well, some not so much. One problem is a large part of chosen routes go along freeways. Overall I am very supportive of the projects. One interesting land use feature is the transformation of the Northgate shopping mall into a transit hub, commercial-residential neighborhood.

[@KyurekiHana]

As another resident of Seattle, I like the light rail, and bus infrastructure is good by North American standards, but the walking and biking safety has been disintegrating. So many pedestrians are being hit by cars now, and then blamed for not wearing enough reflective clothing, or standing in the wrong place, or just not deferring to drivers. I can't drive (my flavor of autism makes it difficult), so I am worrying more and more day to day.

[@christopherderrah3294]

@@KyurekiHana I think that the reason why we see cars being driven more recklessly can be attributed to lighter traffic allowing cars to speed up, and the general excitement that the public has with covid restrictions being lifted. Its like spring fever after a two year long winter, people are partying and going nuts. I have never seen so much horn honking and aggressive driving as in the last three months.

[@KyurekiHana]

@@christopherderrah3294 that might be part of it, but I don't think it's all of it. I think we have lost a lot of empathy over the past few years as well, and people are just sick and tired of dealing with others. They take out their anger using their cars on anyone they see as other, because we are the cause of their frustration. It's only going to get worse before it gets better.

[@mostlyguesses8385]

.. Seattle truly is unique no other metro except NY is limited by water, so it's dense, unlike here Twin Cities. And cold enough there don't sweat but don't freeze either.... Too bad a tidal wave is coming, sorry, store 100 Walmart big bags of wheat for 2 years of food as my dad would say to feel safe if you like your family, he was gloomy...

[@christopherderrah3294]

@@KyurekiHana I dont think thats anything new.

[@geriivagyok]

I'm living in hungary and currently I'm reading Strong Town's books because of Jason's YT channel. I'm so orange pilled that I'm building an educational blog in hungarian to educate ppl on car dependence. Just wanna say thank you!

[@philpaine3068]

When I was a little kid, it was taken for granted that, as a Canadian, everything I had around me was more or less the best stuff. Maybe stuff in California or New York was a little bit better, but whatever that slightly better stuff was, we would soon get it. Even though my family was quite poor by Canadian standards, I automatically expected anything technological, any consumer product, any service (including public services) was going to be the best stuff. When I first visited Europe, this still seemed to be true. Maybe England and France had centuries of art and culture to admire, but they seemed worn out, old fashioned, and a little bit grubby. I remember laughing at the antiquated plumbing in British homes, and dirty bathrooms in Paris. No matter how interesting these places were, it was a relief to get back home and enjoy modern comforts. In the years that followed, I saw North American cities still growing, but somehow remaining stuck in a timewarp of always sticking to the old ways of doing things. Meanwhile, in every trip to Europe, I saw European cities at first catching up, and then dramatically surpassing us. I still prefer Canada because it has so much wilderness, and wilderness is a big element of my psyche. But I have to admit that when it comes to city life, I feel shabby and backward when I compare life here to modern cities in the Netherlands or Scandinavia. It's "the world turned upside down."

[@fernthaisetthawatkul5569]

my thoughts exactly! when i returned from a weeklong trip to italy, i said that rome might be a great place to visit, but i'd rather not live there if every apartment looks like the hostel i stayed in, with its creaky elevator, tiny winding staircases, and ancient-smelling bathroom. i was so relieved to be back in the U.S. and staying at a luxury hotel in chicago. the exact opposite was true, however, getting back to the U.S. from england. just one look at the lively stratford town centre and i knew instantly that it's a lie that only heavily populated cities can have huge walkable areas constantly serviced by public transit. returning to my suburban neighborhood, it looked to me like a desolate asphalt wasteland in comparison.

[@ytd589]

NJB and StrongTowns what a combo

[@jpguthrie6669]

I live in Japan where public transit is widely used. To give you an idea, on any given weekday there will be 40 million commutes on Tokyo's public transportation system. That is more than the entire population of California or Canada. Japan's public transport systems are unique in the world as they are largely private, even Japan Railways, Japan's largest railway, is privately owned and operated. Subways and even buses are usually privately owned, and those which are publicly owned have to compete head-to-head with private systems without making losses. Another interesting thing about Japan is the union situation. Though unions exist in Japan, they are not the same as they are in other places, Japanese unions are mainly enforcers of labor law, they do not lobby or organize for wages or benefits, and they never strike. In Japan you don't have railway maintenance people bringing home more than $200k per year like they have in New York City. Japan's public transportation systems are run for profit, yet have lower fares than most other countries, are always on time, with stations and trains being spotlessly clean.

[@quantumsoma2585]

Japan Railways used to be public though. The current situation in Japan would have never developed without state intervention

[@jpguthrie6669]

@@quantumsoma2585 No. The main rail infrastructure was made in the pre-war years when the rail systems were all private. The main rail systems, tobacco, horse racing, etc were all nationalized by the postwar government. In any event, the subway systems for the most part were always privately owned, and never nationalized. It was the fact that the privately-owned rail systems were more reliable than the nationalized system, while earning profits rather than losses which encouraged JR to be privatized. The government holds a minority stake in the railways, which provides them an ample annual revenue. Japan’s post office is also privatized, meaning it is cheap, very efficient, and you can find post offices in all cities which are open 24/7. There are calls in Japan to privatize it’s National Healthcare System. Japan’s healthcare system is one of the world’s most efficient government-run systems, which means it loses lots of money instead of losing vast amounts. Japanese think that if privatization has worked for the railways, tobacco, racing, the post office, and all the other things which were formerly nationalized, it should work for healthcare too.

[@quantumsoma2585]

@@jpguthrie6669 No. Everything you said about Japan was also true of the US: the US had an enormous private rail rail and transit system until the 50s. The difference? Japan nationalized and actively dissuaded car use as a matter of state policy, whereas the US allowed and encouraged the development of a car culture. It then re-privatized, but only after a public transit based culture had developed

[@jpguthrie6669]

​@@quantumsoma2585 Japan is the size of California, but has 120 million people, most of whom live within a handful of metro areas. These metro areas have been densely populated since long before the car was invented. It wasn't government intervention which dissuaded people from buying cars, but the lack of space for motor vehicle infrastructure. In the more than 90% of Japan which lies outside the metro areas, a car is essential to get around. But as relatively few people live outside the metro areas, car ownership remains small relative to other developed countries. I live in Tokyo, I own a car, and of course it isn't cheap. But if I lived in the countryside, owning a car wouldn't that expensive.

[@littlechaq]

It's so good to put a face to the voice, Jason! You do great work and I appreciate it more than you know. Your values on transportation give me hope for a better country, even if I'm skeptical they'll ever come to fruition in the states.

[@GeneralLiuofBoston1911]

I'm in agreement. It's really helped me understand and grow how I view transit

[@rowejon]

Close by where I live in the Netherlands is a village, Laag Zuthem, with a population of 400 in the centre. Weekdays, in daytime there is an hourly 8 seater bus service.

[@danielappell3484]

I just got back from Calgary. While I was there I had to take the bus downtown from a suburb. The neighbourhood bus had a loop that brought you to a bus exchange where a severely light BRT would take you downtown. The usual wait at the exchange was between 10-20 minutes and the severely light BRT followed the same route as the regular bus which had more frequent stops, but often the regular bus kept pace with the severely light BRT. All the busses had very hard seats and harder suspension and older Calgary roads are a frostbitten washboard. So I lost about half and inch due to a crushed spinal cord while I gave up a far part of my day to a horrible ride.

[@blazesardonyx7557]

Remember guys to spread the word to friends and family. We can make change!

[@empirestate8791]

Two of my favorite people in urban planning together! This is great!

[@sanderw7153]

"Keep doing what you can to build 'strong towns'" in Dutch is "blijf doen wat je kunt om 'strong towns' te bouwen" "Keep doing what you're doing at Strong Towns" as Jason seemed to try to translate would be "Ga zo door met Strong Towns" As a native speaker it also took me a little while to translate of this one because it's so different from the English haha.

[@TyTheRegularMan]

This is so wholesome! I love how much these men value each other's work.

[@hatrian]

I just looked on Google Maps and where I live right now (Japan) there are 3 grocery stores, 3 convenience stores, a mall, countless restaurants, and 2 separate train lines all within 1KM of me. I can walk to all of them with ease. To contrast, at my home back in America I have to walk an entire mile to get to ANYTHING. Just a single store. I’d have to walk on the side of giant 4 lane roads for almost a half an hour to get to any sort of meaningful destination.

[@seraph644]

Same when I lived in suburban Japan. I forgot who did it, but there's a great video on here about how Japanese zoning laws are much less strict, allowing for people to have shop + residence buildings just about anywhere

[@sandal_thong8631]

A good neighborhood lets you live mostly near where you work, shop, play and pray.

[@markthompson180]

Great conversation! I live in Martinsburg, West Virginia and we are one of the few towns in the state that is connected by commuter rail and Amtrak to Washington DC. And we even have our train station located right in the middle of historic downtown. And yet even here, a large population of people don't seem to understand the possibilities and realities of public transit. We are making slow progress here though. Next year, we are getting our first hiker-biker trail that connects into the train station downtown, and I am hopeful that this will give people more of an opportunity to get a first hand understanding of the things you guys discuss on a regular basis about public transit and bicycle lanes.

[@renecaminada5867]

The part you both talk about "a waste of opportunities, use land" is the fact that we in the Netherlands (yes I am born Dutch) plan to start with public transfer before building a new district. It is like lets start a new district and build roads, a pluming system, bring in the wires for electric and internet connections, in the past pipes for gas. BUT also plan a bicycle and bus road map, a place where people can go for shopping groceries include some buildings for small shops like a barber or specialist in chees (very common in the Netherlands). Mostly they build now bicycle and bus lanes whom let you travel faster through the new district then when you use your own car. For example the huge new districts in Amersfoort or Deventer ( I personal experience them). If you googlemaps those cities you can see the difference as well. Just map a route from A to B by car / bike / feet. The fact at most cities and small towns a kindergarden is not far away, 1km. Children learn te ride a bike at early age, 3-4 years old. What you learn at young age, you mostly keep doing at a maturer age. For people with a low income it is possible by walking or use a bike for your groceries. There is always a connection with the rest off the Netherlands by taking a bus or train. It is very very rare there is no connection at all. As Dutch I can tell you not all public transport brings you at speed where you want to go. For example a trip to my parents by car takes us 1 hour 15 minutes (105km), if we take the public transport it takes 2 hours 18 minutes if you are lucky and have no delays! Is the one hour plus trip an issue? I think it is not the right example because the connection between the two towns are not in a straight line connection. Next to the fact I am living in an area you can call an rural community with nearby a highway and a low frequented train connection 1-2x per hour depend what time at the day. - - - I just discover both your KZbin channels and it's amaze me in the way how stupid governments (local or nation wide) can be, how stubborn they are. I have visit once in my life a huge convention in Atlanta Georgie and it is true. If we walked from downtown convention hotels to our own hotel, people are stunned they see use walking. Lucky there was a sidewalk, a real sidewalk. Also downtown the many ugly parking lots.. Now I understand why! Now I understand why why the streets with residential livings look like how it is. And why we did not find normal shops nearby downtown. How horrible it is, all you want to do you need a car without you are stranded in the middle of nowhere ! Now I also understand why it is so difficult to change these, car depended, nations to change into a environment friendly society! The whole approche need to change, and that is very difficult to do. I hope car depended nations will change fast into something better then we see now today. Not only I am interested how the world turns around, but also how the problems are related among. We have the global warming issue and how we need to deal with them by transfer our oil and gas consumption into wind and solar consumption. The transition is not that hard, but how you can convince people they have to change. Changing is scary and that is why we all struggle with the people and how much energie we need to put in to change those people!! I wish we find a way to change people mind easier then how it goes as it goes now today! Is Europe (the old world) perfect? No, it is not. But hell... if I see how it is in the USA / Canada... Sorry for my sometimes not correct English, but hee.. English is not my native language as for others whom learn Dutch as struggle to get those words in Dutch pronounced correct ;-) At least you try it!

[@ThermoMan]

Great video. Love these guys and how they play off each other. The term and idea of “walking accelerator” is such a good one. And the Disneyland example was so appropriate. Might be useful to explore/explain how the Dutch zone land use around stations.

[@peterslegers6121]

Stations are urban hotspots. In cities you´ll often see new stations and development around stations, like more high rise offices/homes, shops in (the walking tunnel/bridge of) the station itself, bicycle parking garages. For instance Eindhoven has added a lot of buildings to the station in the last few decades. Tilburg has developed an old industrial complex at the station and changed it into a public space. Amsterdam builds a cycle garage underneath the water that seperates the station from the downtown area. Arnhem has a spectacular new station, including high rise buildings.

[@fjwald]

Highly recommend people read Walkable City by Jeff Speck, where he goes into a deep dive on many of the points discussed here.

[@KRYMauL]

Walkable City Rules, Walkable City is the book you recommend to friends. Walkable City Rules makes you want to scream at your city council for the whole hour and shut all the NIMBY’s up.

[@thetrainguy1]

This man has started a movement

[@N0Xa880iUL]

Haha exactly

[@emallace447]

OMG. You both, through your content and work, have completely changed the way I view places and my environment. Thank you thank you.

[@StrikingCrayon]

So good to see this. I found you through Not Just Bikes. Reading your book 2 years ago changed my life by changing the reality by which I see my profession. So I guess it feels good to see you two as humans speaking.

[@KRYMauL]

Read Jeff Speck’s Walkable City Rules, then cut off your city’s commission until they actually start doing something.

[@StrikingCrayon]

@@KRYMauL I'm in personal finance. The change to my profession was investment distribution away from the status quo in some proportion as needed. 30% is my current default into community building. Too many insolvent societies to trust it to mere money now.

[@caphalor08]

I live in Belgium. Currently on my commute. It is by no means a paradise but I took my bike to the trainstation, took the train with a 5 minute delay, went down to the metro which is under the trainstation and has a connection. There I take a tram which passes every 10 minutes but it is rush hour so I factor in 10 minutes delay just in case. Then I get off and I am 5 minutes walk from my destination. This is a commute of 27-ish km. It is not ideal but the car alternative is not really better which makes it an option. And this is Belgium, which suffers from chronic 'car is king' syndrome with a side of 'we do not actually want to ACTIVELY kill the other traffic users'

[@caphalor08]

Update, left 6,15, arrived 7,10. By car, due to congestion ot would have taken 49 minutes and I wouldn't have been able to find a parking spot.

[@extrastuff9463]

With so many transfers and that distance I'd be very tempted to do the whole trip by bicycle. Although the temptation and actually doing that would depend a bit on how bad the infrastructure for it is. During long past vacations I did always pass off the driving responsibility to one of my parents before crossing that dreadful southern border. It was fine on the major roads but once you're off them I always disliked the lack of standardised signs and to me confusing road design, that's in a car don't even want to think about how it's on a bicycle. These days the signs and confusing roads would be less of an issue, I managed to grow up in the time when GPS based navigation for cars was a very rare thing to be around. Less of that noticing the odd non-standardised sign partially in a hedge when already past where I had to turn off that road.

[@caphalor08]

@@extrastuff9463 Oh, I cycle it when I can but I have to look presentable at my job and I can't shower when I get there. A change of clothes is all I can do. With this heat it is not possible to arrive without looking drenched. The main reason for me not getting on the bike is not the trip going TO work, but the trip coming FROM work. The infrastructure is not that bad but parts of the commute could be better. Ironically it's the district centres that are the most dangerous, the main roads between have been retrofitted/upgraded/refurbished to allow for cycling. The narrower roads in the urban area tend to still have what in dutch is called a 'moordstrookje' which is what you get in the states with that green marking painted on the road. Interestingly, the word translates to 'little murder strip', something to think about

[@extrastuff9463]

@@caphalor08 I guess things are less terrible than I remember it being over about 15 years ago. My parents always used to joke about being able to feel the difference in the road quality with closed eyes as we passed the border going from the Netherlands into Belgium. And yea, definitely that weather has been terrible lately. I'm fortunate to be able to work from home, still not comfortable with this heat but at least I don't have to worry about a commute + clothes and being presentable. On the day it's encouraged to be at the office (but not mandatory) I've been able to survive it on my bicycle. We don't have to directly deal with any customers or external people in the building, so it's never been a problem to show up in shorts and sandals when that's appropriate for the weather. This might seem a bit like a strange suggestion, but an ebike might be useful in your scenario. It certainly is for my incidental commutes to the office, I only really have to look at weather it will rain or not. Wind can be compensated for with assistance to get a predictable trip time. And during these hot days I use above the lowest level of pedal assist for the last 10-15 minutes to arrive not too sweaty at the office.

[@caphalor08]

@@extrastuff9463 Fun aside, been to the Netherlands for a day and yes, you do feel the difference going across the border. Still, it used to be so much worse. I will be upgrading to an e-bike this fall.

[@ckEagle165]

Not Just Bikes, finally put into words what I've been feeling, and trying to say for YEARS now! People always get so confused when I don't want to be on stroads, when I'm frustrated by the fact that every hotel I want to stay at that isn't in a big city requires driving... TO GET TO THE STORE LITERALLY ACROSS THE STREET FROM SAID HOTEL!, and why I think the tree-barren neighborhoods with nothing but cookie-cutter houses are gross! I'm planning on buying up several abandoned properties in the near future to build out my own walkable neighborhoods in the city I live in, just to prove how much better it is than the big box store lined stroads that lead to the mall... hmm... a mall... What is a mall... lots of stores, some of them small business... lots of places to eat... arcades and other things to do... walkability... but no living quarters, and surrounded by a soul-sucking sea of mostly empty baking asphalt... yet lots of people WANT to be there... everyone is frustrated by the traffic... traffic is made up of cars... cars are what the parking lot is for and literally nothing else... I guess malls are just a way for people to have exposed for them, what they're really wanting in life... to be surrounded by life, and not just sheer existence...

[@whazzat8015]

See his Houston trip story in NJB

[@eldergeektromeo9868]

Thank You, Jason!

[@itsgwenorsomething]

The first time I watched this, I had just switched my major to civil engineering because I was so impassioned about the videos you and Not Just Bikes, Yet Another Urbanist, Ecogecko, and Alan Fisher create. Since then, I have got a job working for a small city where I'm involved in several projects with a focus on pedestrian safety and we are also trying to create 4 new grant-funded bus routes with brand new buses. I came back to the discussion in the hopes to absorb some of your points and try to build this bus route the right way. Jason mentions the "transit bandaid" and I'm seeing a lot of reasons our project fits under that title. We want good transit, but our city was not built with transit in mind and thus we are left trying to figure out where stops should be and how we can make them more than just a sign on the side of the road. We want the bus to come through several neighborhoods, but if we want to build a structure for people to wait at, then we have to build it in people's front yard. Or have a bus stop on the side of a stroad with a dangerous intersection nearby. Plus there are areas where currently there are a bunch of abandoned storefronts and businesses, and I don't know if we should put a stop there in the hopes that development returns to that area (a general goal the city has) or skip it because that area is dead and skipping it improves our route time. On that note, I was once quite proud of the fact we were trying to create a loop where the bus comes every 30 minutes, but I can see how easy it will be for traffic to ruin that goal. Currently our route plans are 18-20 minutes long without stopping, and ~30 minutes long with an average of 1 minute per stop, and about .5 mi between each stop. I am torn between wanting to make the route faster to stay within that 30 minute deadline, but wanting to have plenty stops so that one doesn't have to walk a mile from the bus stop to get where they wanted to go. All of this is very early planning, and we will be eventually working with an engineering firm if we get funded, so perhaps many of these problems can be resolved/answered by professionals. Still, I enjoy thinking about this and learning from this discussion. It's great to get to have two people I admire so much come together and talk about a subject I'm so invested in. Thanks for posting!

[@Jorge-lh6px]

Although Americans glorify the subway system we have in NYC, it’s not as extensive as people believe. So many areas of the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens, the areas that were practically segregated thanks to people like Robert Moses, lack the good services that can make NYC a more interconnected city. I hope one day the officials decide to care about these areas and build transport that’s good for them.

[@97nelsn]

I hope the IBX becomes a reality to utilize a lightly used freight line into a rapid transit line which I hope encourages the conversion of several LIRR branches and MNR segments into rapid transit lines (along with some segments in NJ). There was an opportunity to expand the system in 1968 but a combination of white flight, community opposition, and the NYC financial crisis of the 70s derailed most of the expansion plans; which is why the 63rd street tunnel/East Side Access took years for it to be completed and most recently the first segment of the LIRR main line’s third track opened which would benefit people living out on the island whom are in opposition for Manhattan’s congestion pricing as a way to fund the MTA (yet are the first ones to complain about how bad the service is). Speaking about train service, The head of the MTA said today during the opening of the LIRR’s third track that train service between Penn Station and Jamaica on the Main Line will be as frequent as the Lexington Ave Line but I think there should be a couple more stations on the line to make it a secondary line to compliment the Queens Boulevard line. Still, the system needs major expansion in the outer boros and there were some mistakes the MTA made years ago that should’ve never been made (like removing the Myrtle Ave Elevated which could’ve served the now redeveloped Brooklyn Navy Yard and the Third Ave Line in the Bronx)

[@peskypigeonx]

ESPECIALLY Staten Island too, he literally designed the Verrazano bridge to not be able to hold a subway

[@Jorge-lh6px]

@@97nelsn I’ve heard about these advancements in Queens and Brooklyn and it makes me happy that those communities are finally getting better public transportation. It would make intercity travel so much better, with people no having to rely on longer bus routes or taking a subway around manhattan to cross into the other boroughs. Also heard that the MTA is extending a Metro north line that connects Queens to the Bronx, so perhaps we can see a future where it would be easier to travel within the three boroughs (Queens, BK, and BX).

[@Jorge-lh6px]

@@peskypigeonx The funny thing is that it’s possible to build an underground/water subway that can connect Brooklyn and Staten Island, or create one that goes into Jersey and connects to Manhattan. So many possibilities to extend the MTA but only Manhattan is the benefactor smh.

[@machtmann2881]

NYC subway is useful for getting to Manhattan and always routes you through it. It is not so useful for going around the whole city though. There's no way for me to get from the Bronx to Queens using the subway without hitting Manhattan. You'd think they would have connected them at this point but noooo

[@erins9271]

Hamilton, ON has over 530,000 and it has taken over a decade to sign an MOU for our first LRT line of the BLAST network. It was actually cancelled by the Ford provincial government before they backtracked and decided to go forth with it. We don't even have dedicated bus lanes because people in cars complained about a trial bus lane on a route through downtown so it was cancelled before any real data could be collected.

[@helenbarber5786]

I feel so incredibly lucky to have the Tyne and Wear Metro here in Newcastle upon Tyne, it opened in 1980 and was Britain's first urban light rail transit system.

[@Lumberjack_king]

The fact that his name is "Jason slaughter" is kinda badass its almost like irl clickbait

[@CarolHaynesJ]

It isn't all wonderful in Europe - I live in rural North Yorkshire and our buses are "sporadic", to say the least! I remember turning up at one bus stop where the only bus ran only outside winter months and then only once on Tuesday afternoon! My village has a bus service - a few a day to the nearest town 8 miles away where you get either 20 minutes or 4 hours to go to the supermarket if you want to get a bus home again. Therr are no buses after 6pm. Given that rural populatiins are aging as people stop driving they either have to rely on lifts or favours or move away - at least we now have efficient grocery and other online delivery. I lived in a variety of small towns in the past but development has moved to out of town car centric living and walkable high streets have basically died as a result - made worse hy Amazon etc. My mother lives in Bracebridge, Ontario. The town centre is pretty and walkable - but she is in her 80s and can no longer drive. All the main shopping areas, including suoermarkets are in car centric area "out of town" areas. They have one bus touring the town constantly so it involves long circuitous journeys but even worse it has no schedule - you have to use Google Maps to figure out where it is. The largest supermarket is a 20 minute walk awsy (impossible for her, especially if she wants to buy food) but if she wants to use the bus it takes longer and involves 15 minutes of walking to and from the bus each way! Despite the walkable nature if the town cars are still necessary - consequently even the option of taxis is not practical. The problem is too many people are now used to using the car and see it as desirable I can't see there are many options to change any more.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

NJBs, I would love to see a "walk through" of Niagara Falls Waterfront with an "imagining " of an LRT/Tramway. Connecting from the GO station and then along the board walk, and later expanding to Fort Erie/ Buffalo and Niagara on the lake who create a hugely improved tourism experience. I know you've left Canada but please don't abandon it.

[@jacobfalardeau676]

The tourist shuttle system, WEGO, is already a serious improvement over the old system so a new tramway would be amazing. That or it would be worth taking the parkway and making large stretches of it for buses, bikes, and pedestrians only.

[@r_aria]

Just went camping in Ontario and it was such a lovely experience and I couldn't get over the feeling that it was because it's this dense walkable forest community that I had joined for the weekend. Kids out biking and rollerblading and walking freely. People stopping to chat with the campsite next to them on the way to fill up water or walk to the bathroom. Such a fun place. I wish my everyday life could be more like this.

[@PaulMcElligott]

In most of the world, public transit in a means for getting people from where they are to where they want to be. In the United States, at least here in California, public transit is a form of punishment for the crime of not owning a car.

[@kevin9794]

I haven't heard the whole thing, but I'm curious- do they ever mention Mexico at all? I think a conversation of public transit and urban infrastructure in North America is amiss not analyzing it, because it's a very interesting place in its similarities and differences. Mexico has smaller budgets to work with, which is a big challenge, but it also has the benefit of strong European influence (at least in terms of its old urban design) and more density. Mexico City is a public transit Mecca, with and incredibly multi-modal system, insane demand, and a lot of promotion for biking and lowering car use, but I've long wondered about the smaller towns too. How do things look in a country that's so close geographically but seemingly so foreign in mind (so much so, that it tends to be ignored when people talk about North America)? EDIT: I'm a little further in now, and yeah, they are 100% referring to the USA and Canada when they say "North America". EDIT2: Shout out to @CityNerd btw, who includes Mexico in his North American comparisons. I've learned a lot from their channel!

[@Iliadic]

Technically Mexico is considered part of South America.

[@rogerwilco2]

I would love to see a talk between Jason and the designers of the Missisauga transport system. Or any experienced North American urban designer. You are pointing out the problem, but I would be interested in what is preventing the politicans and engineers coming up with good solutions. I am happily living in the Netherlands, but I think a lot of people could benefit from having a better understanding of where the problems are.

[@jorgen8630]

I think the main problem is capitalism within the US. Everything is built around profit rather than convenience. And the reason citizens don't step in is because most of them don't know any better. Zoning kills the entire transit system and turns it into a carcentric hellhole. And this zoning problem dates back from even before the 50s. Our Changing climate explains in detail where the whole zoning is coming from and why people till this day support that system. The video is titled: Why the Suburbs Are Terrible for Us (and the Planet) if you want to know more about it. I hope one day people will see the problem and step in so people can enjoy the beautiful systems we have in Europe. Greetings from Belgium :).

[@autohmae]

@@jorgen8630 What is also interesting was this video: As Heat Waves Worsen, THIS Policy Predicts Where People Will Die By PBS Terra on KZbin

[@jacobfalardeau676]

Well, the designers of Mississauga Transit and Urban Planners would probably agree with him and sigh in frustration with status quo. Most urban planners in North America support these kinds of changes but it's really really really hard to get the old people on city council on board with it. It's also worth noting that things have massively improved since then and there's a LOT of investment in transit in the last few years. Toronto's suburban rail network is being converted into proper rapid transit with service every 5-15 minutes, all day long. Soon enough, Mississauga will be easier to reach from downtown Toronto than a lot of places that are already within the actual city of Toronto.

[@omnichrome9784]

I heard someone else remarking on this (specific to the US), how people in the suburbs and exurbs think of themselves as rural. I live in a tiny midwestern city. We have no public transportation to speak of. There is a small bus service that specifically caters to people with disabilities and the elderly and that’s it. The state’s capital city is about 30 minutes away and though it has a bus service, there is no public transit between cities. There was a great plan passed in the early 2000’s for statewide rail transit that would connect all the main cities and have some service to smaller urban areas that had existing freight traffic. Even after the trains were commissioned, the plan was axed by politicians who wanted to use the funding for corporate tax credits. Edit - for grammar, also to add, our tiny city *used* to have passenger rail service until the 1940’s or 50’s and still has a train station building with in-use freight rail lines going by it, that was re-vamped and is being used for some city government offices.

[@sandal_thong8631]

Vote out the people who don't think rich should pay taxes.

[@dmadalengoitia]

I am a Peruvian who has moved to CA to study a masters degree near San Jose just a couple months ago. Wow this video just summarizes my experience so far: being forced to walk for at least 15 minutes in the Sun (sometimes without a sidewalk) to get on a bus that will take me to a random stop in the middle of nowhere and then I have to walk another 20 minutes in the Sun to get to my destination. I am not even counting that I am forced to press buttons and wait up to a minute to cross streets because the light system does not contemplate that pedestrians exist unless they actively press a button! I mean, my home city's urban design simply doesn't exist, but compare to here, being a pedestrian in Lima is most of the times much more easier just because lacking an urban design meant that most of the times the city has naturally been built favoring walkability

[@noxaeris120]

What you said about Portland wasn't entirely accurate, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because not everyone is up to date on Oregon land use law. Duplexes, triplexes, and fourplexes are springing up everywhere, especially near places with already existing commercial units, thanks somewhat in part to the state loosening rules on parking and making those types of development part of R1 zoning. There will always be the chicken and egg issue when it comes to housing and transportation, but due to the corridor design to much of the transit system, much of the stuff will fill in between the ends. Portland metro has an urban growth boundary so those areas around transit will become the most desirable for missing middle builds, and California central valley style sprawl is all but impossible. Regarding towers next to single family homes, it's important to remember that Portland is not that old of a city. Downtown at one point had single family homes. As those homes get redeveloped, most end up duplexes or more. The only places I can think of where a single family house is next to a tower is near downtown, and those buildings were built in the 70's. It's important to remember that much of what people know of as downtown today (Pearl District, South Waterfront, and some may consider NW district/Slabtown) were old industrial uses. Pearl was a rail yard for freight and warehouses, south waterfront was warehouses and ship builders, and slabtown a bunch of parking lots for a single logistics company. All of this is now easily walkable and all the developments I can think of near R1 zones are 5 over 1s and plexes, not towers. If all these units were instead only duplexes or small homes, you'd likely have half the capacity of homes you have in the central city today. Not to belabor this point anymore but while yes, Portland has some bus stops in the middle of nowhere and certainly needs to work on it's bus prioritization, the reason it's like this is because much of the housing stock, especially low income housing, has been focused off "high frequency" transit lines close in (especially streetcar), not sprawled out away from the central city. I you take anything from this, it's that state level decisions are driving change in many Oregon cities, not just Portland, especially when it comes to Plexes. The next Governor is likely going to be the person who championed these changes as speaker, so expect more changes down the pipeline.

[@shieldgenerator7]

TIMESTAMPS + LINKS 1:00 America always gets this wrong (about transit): kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5_cloWigtiHnas 17:20 "Successful transit needs people to ride it and destinations people want to go." 33:44 "A transit plan without a land use plan is a waste of time and resources. But a land use plan without transit is a lost opportunity." 48:40 How to do phasing in the Netherlands?

[@gdemorest7942]

I am just like Jason as a Canadian who has lived in the Netherlands for 15 years. I have a passport and speak Dutch. I can still vote there! "Blijf aan het pad naar Sterke Steden" Stay on the path towards strong towns!!!

[@StephanieHughesDesign]

You guys totally rock. Not just Bikes channel is a totally awesome YT channel. Such good conversation. Thank you both.

[@UnicyclDev]

It’s like the Urban Planning Justice League super hero round table. Amazing stuff.

[@seatsea0]

"Stations dropping you off in the middle of nowhere": These are a thing in europe, but they're an exception over the norm, either cause it's the one park & ride station along that line, and you wouldn't use it for anything other then that, the line will still serve points of interest along the way. Or there is the funny case of stations on high speed lines, sometimes in the middle of truly nowhere, talking 10km+ sometimes to get to the city it's supposed to serve. They're usually supposed to releive capacity on the station in the city centre but they are times when they don't really do that and are just an inconvenience purely for cost cutting reasons.

[@Olivia-W]

Or sometimes you find yourself genuinely appreciating the wierd far off stop when you need to get to some esoteric shop for some super specific thing that for some exists only there in the entire city.

[@seatsea0]

@@Olivia-W Agreed! These out of place stops can at times be rather useful, sometimes provide a shortcut skipping what would otherwise be a slow bus line. Or sometimes they are intentionally in the middle of nowhere to serve tourism like a hiking trail. The context is important so I thought I'd add to their comments.

[@swiftf0x]

There are so many factors that go into this discussion and they all need to dovetail together in order for the whole system to work and move the public to utilize it and not stigmatize it. Old trolley lines were funded, installed and run by private businesses to bring the public to their "destination." It's where we gained the term "Trolley Parks." Whether it was an amusement park, sports stadium or a botanical or lakeside/seaside park...it was built to bring people to a destination. If the line went through a "Main Street" business district that was secondary to the purpose of the Trolley Line...or it may have been required by the municipal government, in order to permit the work to be done. (If they were progressive enough to capture that opportunity.) The advent of the "suburbs" in the 50's and 60's, and with it the "Age of the Automobile" required the widening of arterial roads, followed by the introduction of the Strip Mall, then the Shopping Mall, then the Business Park in the 70's and 80's which decimated the "Downtown Shopping District" as a destination. Mega Box Stores came along in the 90's and 2000's which reduced the value and need of the Strip Mall and Shopping Mall. The Pandemic accelerated the shift to "Order on-line/Ship to my Front Door" mode of commerce that was already causing Big Retail to shudder in the 2010's. In the last decade or so have we begun to see a return to the "Downtown Shopping District" setting as a destination as eclectic little shops, restaurants, and the like, move into these "low rent" spaces and try to revitalize an area. But we are still, as you say, at the mercy of the automobile and the infrastructure we had to build to support it. "Main Street" is trying to bounce back. We as Planners need to address the "Automobile Culture" break down the infrastructure barriers and provide proper transportation alternatives, that are sympathetic to the human scale and are considerate of an individual's time, to take the public to places they will want to go.

[@hilaryweiner893]

I started losing my eyesight and made a conscious decision to move to a more urbanized area with a bus stop a block away. My vision became bad enough that I now rely on public transportation. The system works well if you want to go E-W, but getting to a destination 5 miles north or south takes 1.5 hours each way due to multiple transfers. I mentioned this issue on a survey conducted by my county transit agency, but have my doubts they will do anything to improve the situation.

[@sandal_thong8631]

I see transit rail networks with multiple lines, mostly spokes. Ideally you should need at most 1 transfer to get anywhere on the network, so all lines should cross.

[@LaughterOnWater]

This is truly awesome content. Thank you so much for doing what you do! Stay safe out there!

[@miridium121]

One of the good things to come out of the pandemic is definitely that it is more normal to have interviews via the intertnet. This was a great interview that would probably have been incredibly difficult to arrange otherwise (not to mention bad for the environment) considering travel distances!

[@jayreed9370]

I love this collaboration and would enjoy seeing you discuss various topics together on a regular basis.

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

I would love to hear either of you talk about the impacts of Food trucks/Street Vendors, and thier potential to patch damage in our urban Fabric.

[@strongtowns]

You may be interested in this article on the importance of street vendors: www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/8/12/street-vendors-are-vital-local-businesses-cities-need-to-do-more-to-support-them

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

@@strongtowns I was, good article. Do you have a similar one on policies that have been effective on supporting vendors, and strategies to get those policies in place?

[@ezekielbenavides2740]

Would love a breakdown on Boise. It's such a mixed bag

[@victoriafisher1923]

I worked in a school in a quaint English village with a population of 600. That place had a single bus a day for high school students, which I took as a teacher. Miss the bus, walk home. Often I was literally the only person on the bus. That's the floor, and it was actually a step down from what had previously been offered (which I sent a strongly-worded email about). But that was population 600. That actual cities with tens of thousands of people in have bus service that bad in North America (where I'm from and now live) is hilarious in comparison. And I should note, it was a rickety old third-hand (etc.) bus, but it always arrived on time. So you could plan on getting to and from places on time.

[@iamwhatitorture6072]

I just watched Jasons strong town series a few days ago, so I look into this channel and see this was uploaded a day ago? What a great timing.

[@blakksheep736]

Jason looks nothing like his voice lol. Big fan BTW.

[@chilanya]

I grew up in a small village in the Netherlands, and later moved to bigger places, including Amsterdam. The small village was about 12km removed from the nearest town and it was a public transit desert - yes they exist. Well, okay we had a tiny bus that ran once an hour but only on weekdays and not after 7pm. I learnt from a young age that car dependency is shitty, and that it discriminates on people who can't drive for whatever reason. Of course I rode my bike - 12km to school, and back - but if you're someone who also can't bike 12km (elderly, visually impaired, poor health, intoxicated) then you're screwed. A taxi service would have been about €75 in today's money. In the village, nicknamed The End of the World, it was such a relief to turn 18 and finally get a car. A feeling I didn't experience in Amsterdam where people without cars have no trouble getting around quickly and comfortably. And this relief is clearly not for all. I'm so glad I left there as soon as I could..

[@therealdutchidiot]

He did describe your exact situation as one where the floor is actually low. "A small village where you maybe have a bus once an hour"

[@sluggo206]

@@therealdutchidiot One an hour until 7pm on weekdays. Evenings and weekends there was nothing. How would you like to be stuck in your house until Monday morning? What if you want to go to church on Sunday?

[@therealdutchidiot]

@@sluggo206 I'll share a little secret with you. These places have the most important stuff locally to begin with. I know, unfathomable!

[@sluggo206]

@@therealdutchidiot Where I live in the US (Seattle), all the rural counties and islands are exactly like this. 99% of the people live outside walking distance of the town center or most of their neighbors. So even if the most important stuff is local, they can't get to them. And if you want to cross such a county to get to a lager city, you have to go through that too, if there's not an intercity bus a couple times a day.

[@therealdutchidiot]

@@sluggo206 Yes, and he explained EUROPE was nothing like that. The US and Canada are. Pay attention.

[@simoneh4732]

It would be great to make this a recurring series. It doesn't need to be super regular, but every few months would be great!

[@seannajera1265]

Thank you both for opening my eyes

[@unvexis]

My employer once gave me an annual pass for unlimited miles on the local light-rail system, presumably so I could get to work. I could either 1) take a 15-min walk to the station, then take a 15-min ride on the train, and then take another 15-min walk from the station to work; 2) I could just walk 40 min to work (better exercise, safer walk, less time); or 3) I could drive FIVE MINUTES to work. Guess which one I actually did?

[@idnwiw]

Hm, the 15min cycling door to door?

[@unvexis]

@@idnwiw Ironically, cycling was more dangerous than walking. There were sections with no sidewalks, forcing me to ride among cars doing highway speeds (55+ mph). I hate US city design.

[@idnwiw]

@@unvexis One question "There were sections with no sidewalks" Is cycling on sidewalks legal/common in your country? Here it's not and frowned upon if you aren't a child.

[@unvexis]

@@idnwiw It's illegal, yes. It's also the only way to stay safe sometimes. Multiple cyclists were killed by vehicles over a few years on the road to the place where I worked. Visit the US sometime. You'll see how bad our cycling situation is.

[@darkhelmet12e47]

@@idnwiw One of the main roads feeding our school is a 2 lane road with no bike lanes and sidewalks that often disappear in the middle of nowhere forcing you to either go on the road or walk/bike in the grass. It is really bad here.

[@nedreow3722]

A good translation of "Keep doing what you can to build a strong town" could be "Blijf bouwen aan een Sterke Stad".

[@boneless9311]

The collab of GODS. HOLY MOLY IM SALIVATING RN

[@randygeyer7673]

I’m in a small town. Many of our stores have left. I’m guessing because of internet shopping. So what’s left? There’s still groceries. There’s eating out and then getting to work. Finally maybe a park or sports. Most people here live in the outlying areas because that open, rural environment is what they came here for. A clear view of the mountains without obstruction. The bus system runs only in the business / shopping district. The bus needs to reach these outlying areas. The buses here are free. We’re talking a lot of buses so no one has to walk a quarter mile to get to stop. Let’s throw in hot summers and cold winters. So much.

[@freddiet.rowlet525]

The "our city isn't big enough" argument is so weird to me coz if a city like Fake London was in the UK it would instantly be the 18th largest urban area, larger than cities like Coventry, which is currently innovating new tram technology for the sake of a city with 63,000 fewer people covering less than a quarter of the area of London, Ontario.

[@muhilan8540]

yeah but doesn’t transit suck in the uk outside of london? compared to the world not just the us

[@freddiet.rowlet525]

@@muhilan8540 I mean transit that exists and can get you to major destinations without cars is still better than none at all, which the "our city isn't big enough" people argue for

[@darylmckay]

Awesome to watch 2 of my favourite urban planning channels meet. Add Oh the Urbanity and City Beautiful and I'd be in heaven.😀

[@coolioso808]

Really enjoyed this talk. Great interview questions by Strong Towns, I felt like you asked exactly the questions I wanted to hear the answer to. Watch both of your channels and they are fantastic. Hopefully, transit-oriented development - which is logical it boggles the mind why it hasn't happened - catches on in Canada and USA urban development plans more often going forward. I'll do what I can to nudge them in the right way in my town.

[@morganahoff2242]

29:27 Yes, I have observed that, people are most content when they can walk everywhere they need to go. For some reason this only usually happens at festival sites, and the same design doesn't make it to where people live and work and shop.

[@jimzecca3961]

Relative to the topic of people liking and using Disney World Transportation, it has to be remembered that it represents an ideal situation that's difficult for regular public transit to ever hope to accomplish. Disney has 100% control over it. They have 100% control over the nodes of the network - being able to control what parks and resorts are open, park hours, resort capacity, etc. They fully control funding for the system. If they want a new monorail line they build it. If they want to put more buses on a route they do it. Need a new station or want to move a station, go ahead. No public debates. No votes. Then there's the user base. A typical real world transit system has to deal with a scattered population going to all sorts of different places at different times of the day. Disney basically has people going to resorts, going to theme parks, or going to the shopping area. They control the hours of operation for everything. The ridership is also based on people paying (a lot of money) for a vacation. They're there to have fun and relax. They're looking forward to the destination when they get on the bus. There are probably even more advantages they have. Small things like Disney Transport not charging for use. The fact that people are spending money at the resort and theme parks means they don't need to sell bus passes. The fact that Disney World doesn't have other places to go. There are no neighborhoods, non-Disney shops, etc. A few nodes per route instead of 30 stops. That kind of thing.

[@appa609]

Also... it's being enjoyed as a novelty. Nobody actuslly desires to live in disneyworld

[@klcvas45]

@@appa609 Doesn't this count? "Golden Oak is a new community of luxury custom, single-family homes in Walt Disney World Resort with access to the Four Seasons Resort Orlando"

[@sandal_thong8631]

Who needs transit? Commuters, people without cars e.g. young people, shoppers and tourists. So if I was expanding "fast transit" rail to a city area, I'd want it to cover colleges, hospitals, and other transport hubs (bus stations, airports and train stations). There are still some shopping malls left where poor people work and people with money shop. The next "trick" is to make it safe, clean and frequent. I heard a report saying D.C. doesn't want to expand it's Metro rail coverage because lines are already "full," or they don't want to replace bus routes with train routes (i.e. move bus riders onto trains).

[@mariusfacktor3597]

Chuck's walking has really trimmed his body. Looking great my dude.

[@alexh2065]

In terms of phasing transit with land development, there's a neighbourhood in Montreal that was mainly industrial and is now of interest for building housing. It's called Bassin Peel and right now there's a new LRT line (REM) that's being built and is going to pass through this neighbourhood but there's no station being built there for now. Both the city and developers wants to build housing there along with a LRT station. The developers wants to build high-rises (between 12 to 15K units) but the city wants about 4k units, so probably 3-5 stories high instead of 15. So I think that the city is trying to have an overall plan for that sector and integrating the construction of residential units (and everything that comes with it, schools, parcs, shops) with the construction of a transit station.

[@dyj321]

So excited for Strong Towns to be working with my city! I found yall thorough NJB and was so amazed when I saw ST was coming to my city. Just had the first presentation this week, excited for more!

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

Either Strong Towns or Not Just Bikes should review Whitehorse. It's a town of 30k, like a 1000 km from anything, and it's still wonderfully dense and urban. Also LVTs and how a municipality might change from a property tax regime to LVT.

[@njdevilku1340]

Was impressed with whitehorse, how walkable it was (same with Dawson city).

[@neolithictransitrevolution427]

@@njdevilku1340 It has to be one of the most walkable in NA. I'm almost certain it would be the most for it's size, at least without a sizable university.

[@rogerwilco2]

In my view the problem starts with the election systems. I think that in the Netherlands and Switzerland and other countries, the election systems force politicians to align much more with the needs and wants of their citizens. The Netherlands has a long history of punching above its weight and it's not because the Dutch are somehow superior. I think it is because of how we have organized our power structures. The Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland are some of the least centralized countries in the world. Power is very distributed and the needs of a lot of people matter.

[@nonegone7170]

It's more the matter that money has completely taken over politics in the states, where as in the Netherlands there are some fail safes in place for that, although there's an alarming trend of lobbying and money flowing into politics. It seems 'Americanization' still isn't done with us yet.

[@andrewharris3900]

@@nonegone7170 point still stands that less centralised power accountable to more people is more likely to serve the public. It would also be harder to “buy” because no one politician has overwhelming authority.

[@ebnertra0004]

I actually drive for one of those dial-a-ride style public transit services in central MN. It is _the_ bare minimum of transit. But it never fails to amaze me when passengers tell us how glad they are that we're here. I suppose when there's nothing else around (many of our passengers are people who can't drive, for one reason or another), you take what you can get. I think DAR is a decent fit for smaller towns. I drive in a town of about 5,000 and another with about 3,000, and I doubt a full-blown rapid transit service would make any sense for them. But there is one city with about 20,000 where I drive regularly, and that one probably could, despite its massive suburban-sprawl. That said, I'd hate to be the guy to make transit routes through those developments...

[@jimzecca3961]

This was a really good conversation. Video and audio quality were very good.

[@dougpatterson7494]

I work for an infrastructure construction company in Canada and had an Australian coworker last year who said it he had to get used to going back onto the road (stroad) to get from one business to another that are more or less right next to one-another. I've not been to Australia myself but I haven't heard their urban walkability or public transit been spkken of in high regards. They understand that it is dumb to put a fence or low wall between adjacent retail businesses!

[@sandal_thong8631]

They probably don't want pedestrians walking through their lots. We had a Home Depot-like company put a small chain link fence between itself and the big shopping center, then when people either climbed over it or cut it, they put a huge one up on the other side next to the small shopping center. Anyone who walked had to go out to the sidewalk past their parking lot, next to the stroad.

[@JesusManera]

I'm from Australia and we have good and bad here. Nearly every major city does have bad American style suburban sprawl mostly in their newer outer-suburban growth corridors, whereas most of the post-war middle-ring suburbs (depending on the city of course) that were built at the same time the US were building their car-centric suburbs are MUCH better and actually very compact, contiguous, walkable and well connected by public transport. I grew up in middle-ring suburbs of Melbourne around 15km from the city centre and you could easily live without a car. Train stations were every 800m (or 1/2 mile) and each is in the middle of thriving 'Main Street' style shopping & dining precincts. You could walk 10 minutes in any direction and hit shops, restaurants and a train station, and pass countless cafes, restaurants, parks and businesses along the way. Even in the bad, car-centric outer suburbs though, the awful retail precincts there which are more similar to the US (box stores, big parking lots) are still a LOT easier to walk between than they are in the US. They have sidewalks, they don't have fences separating them, they're actually designed to be able to walk from business to business. When I was travelling through the US, we stopped at a fast food place in the suburbs outside a major city in the south. We looked on Google Maps for the nearest pharmacy, because we needed one. There was one right next door, so I thought we'll just walk. It was almost impossible to get there! No footpaths, cars beeping us, big barriers, had to walk through what looked like it was only for trucks to load in. It was ridiculous and clearly designed to get back in our car, turn right onto the stroad, hang a u-turn and come back the other way, then turn left back into the business we wanted to go to. It would never in a million years occur to me to get back in the car to go to a business only 100 metres away! Australia's not exactly Europe when it comes to walkability, however I think the middle-ring suburbs of cities like Melbourne in particular are a great example of how "suburban living" that Americans are more familiar with (and accepting of) can actually be very walkable, livable, transit-centric, and have proper vibrant shopping streets instead of box stores, parking lots and strip malls.

[@lamegaming9835]

oh my god im so excited for this video

[@definitelynotacrab7651]

Great podcast guys, entertaining and informative!

[@melbclayman]

I loved this discussion! I spent a few hours today watching NJB videos and I'm sure I'll be doing the same with Strong Towns. I'm already a fan of City Beautiful and it was through them that I subscribed to Nebula and Curiosity Stream. (I've just ordered the two Strong Town books, Chuck!) I live in Melbourne, Australia, which is brilliantly serviced by rail, tram, and bus transit but which continues to suffer from the classic problem of all roads leading to downtown and if you are limited to public transit it can be a challenge to jump from one radial arm to another without going through the CBD. I very happily don't drive, and in my multi-vacation quest to visit all 50 US states, navigating the cities and towns I visit on public transit ups the challenge level to my explorations! Cities like Portland, Boston, Chicago I love to visit and they're easy to get around; Minneapolis, New Orleans, Madison were a little harder; I think I earned my merit badge getting from an AirBnB in West Hollywood to LAX by transit. FWIW, I think that cultivating/re-seeding "villages" throughout urban/suburban sprawl while growing transit connections that serve those villages could be a way to gradually transform a city by rolling change of land use/transit use. I've seen it happen in an unpleasantly stocatto fashion in Sydney and Melbourne here in Australia (gradual and ugly but working slowly) - I see it working best when business relocated out of downtown (or the CBD) to those villages. It's all *very* exciting! Thank you.

[@melbclayman]

I received the books here at work yesterday (Thu 25 Sep)! Already reading STRONG TOWNS and loving it!

[@tatianamorales9286]

Hey the city of tampa has a pedestrian mall called ybor city that I think is the perfect place for a massive change such as designing land use and transit together. I've been advocating for this without a name for years and a large developer is starting to move in the right direction but the city population is incredibly against change. Anyways great conversation!

[@KRYMauL]

I think “transit” malls if you will are better than “pedestrian” malls. City Beautiful has good videos about these two topics, but they’re called “Transit Oriented Development” that is “mixed use.”