Why Is The Gospel Coalition Complementarian?

TGC aims to protect the gospel, display the gospel, and release the gospel for human flourishing.
In this video: Don Carson, Tim Keller, John Piper
Permalink: thegospelcoalition.org/resourc...

[@BibleSketches]

I love what Don Carson graciously (and courageously) points out around the 11:00 minute mark about hermeneutics, and his reference to Isaiah 66:2 does seem to critique the opposing viewpoint well.

[@michaelbrickley2443]

Go to KZbin and look up Ben Witherington III @ Baylor. He does a wonderful tear down of complementarianism

[@stevenhjelle9584]

Excellent analysis and explanation.

[@mamajo5867]

As a young Christian woman looking to understand more about feminism and how to combat it in order to most effectively spread the gospel to other women who have been knowingly or unknowingly influenced by the feminist movement, this video has been a huge blessing! I have such a greater understanding of these things now, thank you!

[@absentminded7230]

wtf? lol

[@jeanniestaller797]

We need to look at Jesus's treatment of women and their role in the early church. All this talk about how "beautiful" women's and men's roles are (i.e. man leads, woman follows) is propaganda to keep women under men. Jesus elevated women in a patriarchal society. Yes, we approach things differently (compliment) but are equal. This is not caving to feminism. It depends on a person's reasons. Reading scripture and seeing the truth when it doesn't agree with another person's view is not the same as bending scripture and being open to "bending" other truths in the Word.

[@daviddeck1974]

@@jeanniestaller797 @Jeannie Staller your comment speaks volumes as to why this video is needed... Let's stick with the Bible.

[@jeanniestaller797]

@@daviddeck1974 you're assuming I'm NOT sticking with the Bible. That's your opinion.

[@j-mshistorycorner6932]

Feminism is literally just a belief in equality. Sounds biblical to me!

[@peterlangbroek3323]

In Ephesians 5, the apostle Paul correlate s the Gospel to the complementary roles of husband and wife.

[@brianandtarryn]

If indeed people call themselves Christians, and that they believe the Bible is the Word of God, then they must abide by what the Word of God explicitly instructs without compromise regardless of the leanings of their own will.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

and whose "explicitly" do they follow? there seems to be so many translations and applications.........who has the right one?

[@brianandtarryn]

@@susanbarackman-artist7670 Indeed, there seem to be a few added every year. Some of which should not even be called bibles. But this is the age we live in and are clearly warned against the many false teachers.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

@@brianandtarryn but there seem to be many who are quick to call others false teachers because they may have a difference of opinion on what a particular verse may mean or how to use it.

[@brianandtarryn]

@@susanbarackman-artist7670 I totally agree with you. When we know only what we have heard, without deep personal study of God's Word and council of The Holy Spirit, we are venerable to deception.

[@lachlanshire]

Forget complementarianism, why do those chairs look so darn comfortable?

[@IAmisMaster]

Comfortarianism

[@godsbabeborn-again5945]

🤣

[@DanielLovesGodWord]

Thank you for being willing to address an unpopular subject! We must follow the Scriptures even when it makes us feel uncomfortable or goes against our culture. God knew best when He created men and woman with different roles but equal standing in His eyes. After doing exegetical study of these passages they mean what they say(1 Cor 14:33-35, 1 Tim 2:11-15) ! Women are to keep silent in church and not teach or lead men. That is a place of rest not a place of abuse. With greater authority comes greater responsibility. Any man that abuses his authority doesn't justify women leadership. All that shows is the need for men to follow the principles outlined for elders and deacons in the Scriptures.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

yes but the very idea of one in authority over another attracts wolves and narcissists who by their very nature rise to leadership. at one time slavery was legal ---eph 5 paul says they are brothers in christ but that rarely if ever happened where the master treated the slave as an equal or with brotherly love. even if both were christian one still owned the other. There are hundreds of stories of women who suffered and were abused in patriarchal marriages, but I have found no abuse stories where both parties were equal in all things. There are many fb groups and podcasts of women telling their very sad and tragic stories and they all point back to patriarchy as the cause where the man misuses scripture to browbeat and abuse the wife and children. ---it seems ironic the only Christians offering help and resources for abused women are the egalitarian groups

[@johnmarkharris]

Don Carson would make a wonderful potions master.

[@julieannemuir8952]

at 3.58... 'leaders that most women love'. 'They flourish when a man is a humble godly spiritual leader as head and she as submitting endorser of their leadership' Ok, I get it, so that's why not many women in the church are flourishing........I don't see many humble godly spiritual men leading. I've been a Follower of Jesus for 35 years. These men don't come across as humble at all. Just because they speak quietly and use their so called knowledge of the passages doesn't mean they fit that description. And I note, the whole audience is male, hopefully some of those hapless young men have the gumption to speak up. And I'm not coming from a societal perspective so don't come back at me with that angle. I learn from Jesus. And don't talk to me about 'The Fall' It was never meant to be the trajectory into the future for men to use against women, to foster guilt. If men were designed as leaders why didn't Adam say no when he was tempted? This group border on 'well meaning' cultism.

[@davidolson8537]

The gospel is the most egalitarian concept in existence.

[@michaellautermilch9185]

The gospel is patriarchal.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

@@michaellautermilch9185 the gospel is redemption from all the things that went wrong in the garden including patriarchy which is a result of the fall.

[@marshajohnson2004]

Can I get a transcript?

[@ewilmerodach3817]

4:28 "we want to rescue the old abuses into something beautiful" - John Piper

[@nigelnyoni8265]

Looks so bad now when I read it 😂😂😂

[@-Red-Beard-]

Something beautiful like, I dunno, forgiveness of those sins and moving forward from them identifying with Christ rather than crimes committed by sinners generations ago?

[@branver1172]

People still abuse

[@Golden-Eagle781]

Beautiful abuse??? Then again, to abuse over 50 percent of the population into silence narrows the field, leaving only sadistic people to rule!

[@JoanKentBible]

I am a complementarianism woman. I am 74 years of age and have had my moments of rebellion. That understood, I have always acknowledged, at least in my heart, that men and women have different gifts, are equal and when they work together miracles happen.

[@ryanangelo8392]

Complementarianism is a misrepresentation of Scripture. The Bible never says women can't work outside of the home. In fact, the New Testament celebrates the role of singles/unmarried people (including both women and men) who therefore in this present day may find themselves drawn to careers in teaching, science, medicine, engineering, etc., or missionaries for the gospel. Yet complementarians almost always characterize women as submissive stay-at-home mothers whose only role is to bear and raise children, perform domestic tasks in the home, and be ordered around by the husband. This is not Scriptural, and it harms believing women in the church who have careers and are treated as evil feminists.

[@justinloy6339]

@@ryanangelo8392 nice straw man argument!

[@er423]

@@ryanangelo8392 In which world are you living? Your explanation has nothing to do with the Biblical understanding of Complementarianism.

[@TheB1nary]

@@ryanangelo8392 You did nothing for your representation of historical and textual exegesis there ;)

[@ryanangelo8392]

@@er423 It's pretty clear that the Bible extols singleness for both men and women (1 Corinthians 7:32-35). Also see 1 Corinthians 7:37-40. But complementarians seem to view men and women primarily through the lens of married life. I say this because men and women are servants of the Lord first and foremost. Yes, while traditional marriage and family are a beautiful part of the plan of God for the flourishing of mankind, it was never meant to limit people or confine people to legalistic roles, especially in the way it is interpreted for women. A woman is not "wrong" if she seeks a managerial position in a secular job, for example.

[@raywilson353]

I respect these men and appreciate their teaching generally but on this topic I disagree. I suggest that people watch Ben Witherington III or Dr. Sandra Richter and others on this subject.

[@Lavinia747]

This is new to me, but I read “Another Kingdom” by Andrew Klavan recently and it actually makes sense out of this concept. The book is half sci-if, half myth, and a mystery overall. Really good characters who show a kind of “complimentary” nature.

[@Yeh-ts5bj]

네

[@gummylens5465]

Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness will be peace, And the service of righteousness, *quietness* and confidence forever. __ James 1:9 This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, *slow to speak* and slow to anger; __ 1 Cor. 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the *Son Himself also will be subjected* to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. Submission is a privilege! :D

[@PARKERSHAW]

I forget where I heard this, but I found it quite helpful... That the entire christian walk is submission- Submission to authorities, submission to parents, submission to those who God has but in authority, but most importantly submission to Christ... Now I wonder why this one submission in the household has garnered so much hate.

[@rodalmond8210]

Job said of his counselors: Wind Bags

[@rodalmond8210]

@@pastorjohnpiper8864 Like I said, Wind Bags” vanity, empty words, counsel without knowledge

[@rodalmond8210]

@@pastorjohnpiper8864 Do you receive your information from Chinese fortune cookies 🥠 or tea leaves? Or just pass them out? In either case, no.

[@MrPumppaintballer]

@@rodalmond8210 this isnt him, its a scammer lol

[@samuellian2151]

The way Piper and Keller looks at each other in here confuses me. It seems they are in a disagreement.

[@pharbolsdsmack]

Keller is clearly struggling. He believes what he says, but only those things. I reckon he disagrees with a heap of what the other two say. Or at least the way they express it.

[@berndtherrenvolk1951]

At the time of this conversation, Keller (RIP) is a brilliant man with tremendous internal struggles. His personal nature is highly egalitarian, but he also believes the Bible, but . . . as is the case with all of us on various issues . . . he wishes that God had said some different things or at least said some things differently. Carson, especially, but also Piper are much more accepting of the traditional understanding of complementarianism. I'm glad that Piper clarified that power abuse and arrogance by men is much outside complementarianism as is female headship.

[@missionimpossible4869]

I refuse to buy coffee at Starbucks!

[@noyb1010]

WHY?

[@consideringchristianity5028]

AMEN!

[@Plumbing50]

"What does it mean to be a man and not a women?" Huh? Dr. Piper, you would answer with an Eglitatian response.

[@themilkaint4free]

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her. Does this mean that when I saw a Male who was unsaved, I should not have led him to Jesus. I should have said, wait, let me see about setting up an appointment with a male to lead you to the Lord? The Bible says "there is neither male nor female in the spirit realm (Gal 3:28). I believe that in the Marriage the husband is called to be the Spiritual Servant Leadership like Christ Jesus. However, this does not restrict the wife nor the body of Christ from sharing the good news. Christ Jesus is the Greatest Authority and no name is higher....I'll follow HIS example where he told Mary Magdelene to share the Gospel, The Good News that he our Lord & Savor has risen to his disciples. Hallelujah!!!! Lord, please let us focus and do what builds the Kingdom of God instead of things that hamper the spreading of the gospel. Let us humble ourselves like a child before you. Christ you empowered your Church composed of males and females, your bride composed of males and females to share your gospel with love and power!

[@jencl3863]

If I understand it correctly, it's not that we cannot teach at all. We are not to be teachers of men. Sharing the good news with a male friend is not teaching, it is evangelising, which ALL believers are called to do (Mt28:19). Evangelising is also not "assuming authority over a man". The very real people that are mentioned in the Bible, are not God, therefore we don't read the bible thinking that we should be like them...ie. just because Deborah was a judge doesn't mean we should be, whereas an actual command from God through His apostles like in 1Tim 2:12, should be obeyed. So I would think it's fantastic if you and I can continue to tell everyone the good news :)

[@dannyfreitas3625]

@@jencl3863 very well said jen

[@branver1172]

I agree we can and should all evangelize. I’m not seeing what being a judge has to do with 1 Timothy 2. The whole chapter is talking about how to set up a worship service, and in that context a women should not be a teacher in the worship service. It doesn’t say anything about being a judge in the civil sphere.

[@HM-vj5ll]

They need to come down from the Ivory tower and talk to people, not only read books about culture and traditions. Traditions don't allow you to see anything beyond what tradition says. Maybe have some women on the talk and perhaps someone open the scripture and expound on the differences.....but that's non of my business..

[@drb8786]

Their heads would explode

[@subjecttochrist]

provide scriptural evidence for a change, other than your feelings.

[@jencl3863]

I'm a woman who spends a lot of time teaching youths and little children about the Bible and I push for every woman to know their theology. I also try to take every opportunity to share the good news with those around me, men or women. However, I am 100% comfortable with not being a pastor, or preaching on a Sunday or do anything that puts me in authority over men (which is what the main command is here). I don't need that position to do God's work. What I need is probably to be a bit less self-focused, a bit more sacrificial to be honest :p

[@Senorgaragedoor]

These guys spend a lot of time with people my friend.

[@randydodd7838]

I highly recommend A Quiet Roar by Randall Arthur regarding the subject of female pastors. The novel entertains and inspires. One reviewer says, "An intelligent and beautiful female pastor is imposed on a conservative Baptist church in the deep south and all hell breaks loose."

[@Phil-mt1ql]

Which is kind of what these three gentlemen are talking about.

[@skinnyblackdogs]

I think Piper is arguing that if a person is willing to cave over mild complementarianism as he sees it, how are they going to refuse to cave over issues that are closer to the 'heart of the gospel'. Why are not these issues that are closer to the gospel on the mission statement then?

[@Mushbeary]

Simple, they are.

[@branver1172]

Maybe They aren’t caving. Maybe they just interpret it differently.

[@Golden-Eagle781]

It's okay with me if the so called pastor is male, but women should be permitted to preach, and let the message be evaluated with all. No person should speak without each of us comparing it to the scriptures. If the pastor silences women he should also silence men and only read chapters of the bible out loud. Possibly, we could allow only born again Jewish males to be so-called pastors who preach. Let only male Jews run the church. If women are to be treated as separate and of course, not really equal, then fire all non.-Jewish males. Only permit born-again Jewish males to preach who can prove their heritage through many generations. Slavery was done away with a long time ago for men only, but it continues for women.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

you hit the nail on the head. we abhor the very idea of slavery yet continue to impose rules and more rules on how women should act in the church and their homes and families. and what is worse, if they are abused they are counseled to go back and be more submissive and obedient to the very man who abused them. gosh, we wouldn't do that to a dog!

[@tanyah7976]

Does TGC admit women to such talks and discussions? There was not one in the audience from what I could see.

[@HearGodsWord]

They've had their own women's conference before so I don't see why they wouldn't, unless they keep mens and womens ministry seperate

[@CE-gb9rj]

That’s exactly what I was thinking like y’all your shooting yourself in the foot if you are saying women and men are equal but you don’t let your sisters in ps I love John piper so nothing against them but really makes me question what is really going on here

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

😆 You noticed that too, eh?!

[@byamukama]

This was a Pastors Conference. If you need TGC Women conversations about this issue, there are plenty on KZbin.

[@Pandaemoni]

I grew up in a household where my father absolutely had headship, and ruled over us through fear and violence. That's who he was. Obviously, his beating my mother into unconsciousless and whipping me and my siblings to the point were we all bear physically scars (often over matters like "touching the thermostat" or "accidentally spilling a drink") was not proper conduct biblically, but there was no changing him. Our church tried, and he kicked them out of our house. They then excommunicated him. So, after that none of us were ever again allowed to go to church, because he would not allow us to go without him. The notion that a man, by virtue of his genetalia, is entitled to be in charge and rule over his family no matter how poorly he exercises that authority, no matter how stupid he is, how foolish his decisions are, how profligate he may be, how sinful, how violent, psychotic, strong or weak just seems wrong to me. It is a principle that works well in perhaps 95% of households, but poorly (often catastrophically pooly) in about 5%. My family fell into an extreme end of that 5%. Any doctrine that doesn't work 100% of the time though, really shouldn't be a doctrine without heavy circumscription.

[@juliachildress2943]

I was raised as very strict Southern Baptist until I was in my 40s. I'm 70 years old, and never, ever did I hear a preacher or anyone else try to fit men and women into strict gender roles. The reality of their lives meant that men and women did what needed to be done in a household, whether it was childcare, earning money, plowing the fields, reaping the harvest, or leading the household in prayer and Bible reading. Women very frequently were the catalyst for church-going in the family, not to mention those sainted single women who gave up domesticity for spreading the Gospel in foreign lands as missionaries. Your sad story is a perfect example of why complementarianism is ridiculous and harmful to women and children, not to mention that it's an actual diversion from the Gospel. Paul never intended to burden Christians with yet another legalistic requirement, nor did he intend to handicap half of the body of Christ because of some legalistic program, supported by carefully curated Bible verses. The partners in the marriage decide what works for them. This doctrine was developed over the past 40 years and is the result of men becoming fearful of women. Those who have power rarely want to share or give up power. As women proved themselves to be just as competent as men in just about any field, including teaching and preaching, they became a threat to the men who had the power, so suddenly women are to keep silent, assume the submissive posture, stay at home, let the men lead, etc. Very dangerous to raise that to the level of biblical doctrine.

[@markshaneh]

Hey Kurt, that sucks that your dad was an abusive person, my dad was the same and almost killed me as a young child through misguided male patriarchy. We were a totally non Christian family. Now being born again I can now see how abusive all people can be, If the male role model in a family isn’t representing Christ, it’s not of Christ and will hurt and fail. ✌🏼

[@Pandaemoni]

@@markshaneh Where I struggle is that holding up male headship as the one-and-only model, while also having very limited ability to control those who would abuse that power is a problem. Sure, most Christian men don't abuse it, and a fair number of those who do will correct their behavior if admonished by their church elders. But then there are people like my dad, for whom social opprobrium is ineffective. A one size fits all rule left our church elders scratching their heads, and once were were out of the church they had no idea regarding what more they could do (and we were basically no longer their problem). Divircing is not an option but letting my father continue to lead tge family would have been a nightmare. So I am less confident in male headship as a universal rule without any effective checks or balances. For that reason, I diagree with exegesis that gives husbands uncounterable authority in every case. Perhaps the escape hatch should be limited to rare cases, but those rare cases exist. My family was one.

[@juliachildress2943]

@@Pandaemoni I think we have to ask ourselves what it is about having a particular body part that qualifies all men to lead effectively. Many humans lack empathy, leadership skills, intelligence and other characteristics that make for good leaders, spouses and parents. Having an ideal in which men are the leaders in their homes may be a worthy ideal, but in patriarchal/complementarian religions, that set-up almost always includes a component of requiring women to be silent, meek and quiet, etc., and in many conservative modern Christian circles, women are also deprived of the separation/divorce option. When you make men the absolute leaders and then silence and control women to the point that they are powerless, you have a recipe for abuse and abuse is rampant in such faith organizations. Scores of men - pastors, church staff members, and congregation members have been charged with predatory offenses. Many are serving or have served prison time for their deeds. It all goes back to power. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and this is just as true in churches and families as it is in secular politics.

[@all-thingswithbillhirsch2528]

I can’t imagine being in your situation. But male head-ship did not cause that situation. If the church said his wife should take over, he still would be a tyrant. I am surprised the church didn’t encourage your mother to take legal action against him to protect you and your mother. There is no egalitarian doctrine that would have saved your family from his tyrannical abuse. I wish the church would have taken a stand against him more than just saying okay you’re not welcomed here anymore.

[@lsjt8924]

I do agree with complementarianism but the visuals - three old men and 0 women - aren’t great…

[@atestring100]

If a woman becomes a Pastor or elder does that mean she has lost her salvation?

[@Heretical_Theology]

no...

[@marcusmazdaboy]

No

[@epistemicfoundations3600]

No, it means both her and the elders that ordained her are disobeying the biblical order and God's explicit New Testament command.

[@roselauer5025]

She’s out of order! God will pull the gold out all things. He takes what the enemy intends for evil and uses it for good. He’s a gracious God! However when we get out of alignment with Him we are on our own path not the one that leads to Him. We widen the road. When we widen the road we water down His word. We’re now following Our word. Any fruit from this road traveled will be ok at best. Not rich and vibrant to bear more rich fruit. It’s a dangerous path to take! Eventually the fruit will be of no use to Him. The road is narrow and few find it.♥️🙏🏻

[@jencl3863]

I think they pointed out early in this video that this is not a salvific issue, but that disobeying what the Bible says about men and women and what God ordained, sets a precedence to taking other scripture out of the picture, or twisting it.

[@jamesdaniel1376]

Because either they don't read the entire Bible or they reject or ignore the parts they don't like. In Romans 16:1, Paul calls a woman named Phebe a deaconess in the church at Cenchrea and commends her. If Paul's requirements for a deacon in 1 Timothy are written to exclude females, then Paul should have been calling out the church at Cenchrea for their actions in violating God's order, but instead Paul commends her to the Romans. Verse 3, same chapter, Paul greets Priscilla and Aquila, a husband and wife ministry team. By placing her name first, he is apparently rejecting the conventions of Greek grammar which many scholars feel indicates that she is the one more prominent in ministry. Verse 7, same chapter, Paul greets Junia, a woman, as an apostle and not just any run of the mill, ordinary apostle, but one who is noteworthy. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul gives instructions on proper etiquette for women praying and prophesying in church. Remember, when Paul identifies the offices of the church in verse 28 of chapter 12, the office of the prophet is the second highest, just behind an apostle. Either those who reject women in ministry are ignorant of Bible passages that clearly allow and commend it, or they are being deliberately dishonest.

[@bigdw9545]

Junia is not named as an apostle in Romans 16:7. There is no way the clear reading of that verse indicates that. She was known by or among the apostles. There were no female apostles just as there were no female elders.

[@julieannemuir8952]

Oh my goodness does John Piper really believe this stuff? from 5.53

[@branver1172]

I know. I don’t understand how more men are not insulted by some of these teachings.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

Yes… unfortunately he does

[@corinnepetersen6184]

Amen

[@solitairecat1]

Jesus commanded us to not call anyone teacher or leader, stating that he must be our only teacher and leader in Matthew 23: 8 & 10. Similarly, Jesus said among his disciples it would not be like the rulers of the Gentiles who lord it over them in Mark 10: 42 & 43. Paul said all members are equal in Christ regardless of nationality, gender, or status in Gal 3:28. Its important to recognize that all religions, where a few leaders, generally men, tell the members what they should believe, is the opposite structure to what Christ and Paul taught! They are false ministers who are leading masses of people away from the truth of scripture, not towards it.

[@CC-ee7bj]

Christians are equal in that God has shown his saving grace to us all. Within the local church Christians are however some Christians have positions of authority and others do not. The New Testament gives us a basic ecclesiology to follow which involves a hierarchy within the church. A New Testament example would be James who was the bishop of Jerusalem and had the final word at the Jerusalem council. Local churches should be lead by a plurality of elders. These men been given positions of authority and the calling to teach others, so that Christ's sheep may be fed. They are ministers, their authority is used to serve us. You have shown a fundamental lack of understanding of the scriptures and you have sinned against these men by bearing false witness.

[@ryanangelo8392]

@@CC-ee7bj If you believe she has a deficit in understanding Scripture, then you should respectfully provide clarification (and cite Scriptures, as she did) without judgment or accusation. Calling her a false witness is not accurate because she hasn't borne false witness against any specific individuals. Also, you seem to prove her point regarding Mark 10:42-43.

[@johnsaxon5154]

Because we don't like yucky patriarchy, but need to differentiate ourselves from the feminists, so we try and sit somewhere in the middle, and thus complementarianism was born!

[@michaellautermilch9185]

Amen! Complementarianism is pure compromise, and it equates to sitting in the middle of the battlefield hoping not to get shot from both sides.

[@joygibbons5482]

@@michaellautermilch9185 like so much of Christian life in my experience.

[@user-mx3kh8rj1t]

After you are embrace Complementarianism over against Egalitarianism, then take the next step and move toward embracing and restoring your understanding of relationships to God’s original design - Patriarchy. Seek out the teachings comparing/contrasting Complementarianism with Patriarchy by folks like Doug Wilson, Joel Webbon, and Jared Longshore. It is long past time for the Church to cast off the error of Complementarianism and return to Biblical Patriarchy. When we research the history of Complementarianism, we learn that it was developed by a well-intentioned group who sought to develop a Christian answer to Feminism that would make Christianity’s marital roles/guidelines acceptable to the world system. The Hegelian Dialectict explains Complementarianism as being the synthesis of Feminism and Patriarchy. Thesis = Patriarchy Anti-thesis = Feminism Synthesis = Complementarianism Much like the Gap Theory, the Day/Age Theory and other unscriptural “Christian” theories that sought to synthesize the naturalistic Theory of Evolution with the Biblical Doctrine of Creation in order to be acceptable to the world systems, the resulting syntheses end up deadly misrepresentations of scripture. Biblical Patriarchy is God’s design. His design is good. Done scripturally, Patriarchy is good. Any other expression of Patriarchy tends toward evil. Hierarchical Patriarchy exists. It always will. God’s way is loving Patriarchy. The world’s way of Patriarchy is fraught with diabolical evil.

[@berndtherrenvolk1951]

Complementarianism includes the very idea of patriarchal leadership. Complementarianism started in Genesis. But Complementarianism also contains the power of matriarchal influence in a marriage. The man must lead and the woman must submit to that leadership, in general, and when there is conflict, in partricular. But any man who doesn't have his ear constantly attuned to the input of a godly wife is not himself godly. Again, not godly. Because he is disobeying other parts of the Word of God. Patriarchy is nothing more than human evil (as is human matriarchy) if not led and shaped by God. Just as Scripture holds teachers and pastors to higher standards because of their leadership roles, the same is true for men. A man's pride and arrogance because he called to leadership, due to his biological sex and his entering into a marriage, is a special failure in the same vein. A man who waves around "patriarchy" as if men are something special actually doesn't understand the Gospel itself. Christian men aren't instrinsically better than non-Christian men . . . they are just the beneficiaries of God's grace by God's choice for reasons that have nothing to do with merit. Likewise, men are not instrinsically "better" than women. They are different. Without Adam first, there never would have been an Eve. Without Eve, their never would have been another man. Leadership responsibility is both a blessing and a curse. Men are not more special than women. Women are not more special than men. They are different. Men have unique attributes that women lack or have in lesser degree. Women have unique attributes than men lack or have in lesser degree. As was stated in this video, men will either lead well or they will lead poorly. But they WILL lead. I've seen too many men have a powerful indwelling drive to lead, but they will lead to disaster unless that leadership is itself led by God.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

you have it backwards...adam and eve were created equals in all things except physical....patriarchy came in with the fall.......jesus fixed it by his death and resurrection but it seems like the devil still wants that division of one in authority over another. and the fruit of it is very bad with so many women being abused by patriarchal men.

[@thinsomestone]

Interesting. You can see the crack’s in Keller’s theology already beginning to appear here and Carson and Piper trying to reign him back in. In hindsight, of course, Keller had a lot of problems with the way he approached such issues.

[@romy8953]

I love Timothy Keller, but I have to say that I hate some of the comments made by John Piper. His comments about God giving roles because they are most suited for that role is completely wrong. There is no evidence that men are better at being leaders than women, both in real life and biblically (I agree with the complementarian view, but not on this point). Timothy Keller gave a sermon on marriage, and said it beautifully, where he said that both parties have to submit to their role, and that is was difficult for both him and his wife. They both felt like they would have preferred the other role based on their temperament, but must submit to the role whether they think they are best suited for that role or not.

[@IAmisMaster]

Rom y I agree. Complementarianism is not primarily based on aptitude. It's primarily obedience. That said, it just so happens to usually work out better.

[@jencl3863]

Actually...the Bible says pretty clearly that not all have the same gifts....so....not sure why you "hate" the comments John Piper made about that. I certainly don't think men would be able to put up with childbirth...you can trust me on that. ;)

[@branver1172]

It’s true we don’t all have the same gift. That doesn’t speak to the comment. All men don’t have the same gift. All women don’t have the same gift.

[@CasperLCat]

Piper has said it makes him mad when a female cop pulls him over. Not because he wasn’t speeding, but because the cop was a woman exercising authority over him. That’s all you need to know about Piper. He’s an insecure little man with dogmatic ideas about all and sundry to protect himself from his own fragility. I usually don’t argue from someone’s physical nature, but Piper being under 5 ft 6 and 120 pounds MUST be a factor here.

[@johnpatmos1722]

15:45 That is exactly what has happened with infant baptism.

[@atestring1007]

Complimentarianism is not a Biblical word or concept. It is a word and concept of John Piper.

[@shelleyd9910]

Nobody can explain to me why God the Father never said anything on this and rose up women to be prophets and judges, who ruled over men and told them what to do. Nor why Jesus said nothing on this and sent women out to preach/proclaim. Nor why Holy Spirit also imbued the women in the upper room (not just the 12) with the power of the Holy Spirit to go out and preach and testify. Yet somehow when the Holy Spirit spoke to Paul He made up a new "sin", that women can no longer be leaders or do any of the preaching, proclaiming or testifying if it happens to be a man. No one even bothers to try to explain that. Everybody hides behind the accusation that somehow todays culture is to blame. Its not. There are just so many strongly gifted women and telling all of us to sit down and be quiet in the church when Jesus has not said that, is actually causing great harm to the body of Christ. It is effectively telling the heart of the body of Christ that you don't need it.

[@ballasog]

You should bail and join a normie church.

[@Mushbeary]

Deborah un the old testament said herself that because Barak wouldn't go to battle without her that God would give the honor of victory to 'a woman' which obviously im plies that that shouldn't be the case. Prophecy and teaching are different, in joel it is said that children would also have dreams and visions, but you don't see anybody fighting for children to preach. You also neglect all the passages that EXPLICITLY forbid a woman to preach such as 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34 and how can a woman preach and execute authoratative actions if she's supposed to submit to her husband(Genesis 3:16, 1 Peter 3:1)? Isaiah 3:12 puts the woman ruling as a judgement not the norm. This idea that "telling us women to sit down" and that it is causing harm to the body of christ is heresy as the bible teaches that woman are supposed to be in subjection(with obvious exceptions) to men. I pray that you will read the bible and grow in your understanding.

[@anthonydorado8841]

Scripture explicitly prohibits women to “take authority over a man” and to hold leadership position in the church (pastoral or eldership). In NO WAY does Scripture prohibit women from sharing the Gospel and proclaiming the word of God to a dying and sinful world. We have to draw that distinction. A woman sharing the gospel with her unbelieving male friend is not a sin, a woman holding pastoral office in a church is.

[@cosmic_order]

Why weren't women allowed to be priests in the old covenant?

[@rachelm9350]

@@anthonydorado8841 where is the line of what is "pastor" or not? Many places forbid unmarried women from volunteering, running a small group that is NOT being a pastor, or doing anything other than being a barefoot and pregnant person or assisting in kids ministry

[@shiraniedissanayake6245]

The world needs Jesus, Jesus did not specifically mention men only to carry the gospel (Matt. 28:18,19). Therefore all men and women should obey Jesus' command and proclaim the gospel even in the Leadership.

[@marksweeting24]

They have elevated a secondary issue to primary. This is not a doctrine that is found on any Creed or basic statement of faith. Why elevate? It appears that it is a move to protect their status quo. To question this secondary issue, now you are questioning your faith’s foundation which is rubbish. I can have the same view of scripture and apply the exegetical process and have a different perspective on this subject. It is a way to create a slippery slope fear. Don’t pull on this thread.

[@erinhuffman8713]

So...there's this idea of greater male authority that is sooo important, but we're not even going to try to articulate how it's practically applied? Leaving the door open for all kinds of confusion and even abuse? Every man decides for himself how it's applied, and good luck, ladies! The alternative is that men and women recognize God as our true authority with no middleman, and we recognize each other as brothers and sisters who are to love and serve each other. This is biblical, and not at all ambiguous.

[@librowoman]

I find it interesting that this stance on women’s roles in church and family seems firm and yet, your position on the role and nature of baptism- an issue of immense salvific import- is loose and inclusive? This is incredibly problematic.

[@michaellautermilch9185]

Amen!

[@adamdarby5849]

Baptism is definitely not of salvific import 😂

[@Heretical_Theology]

Submission is a bad word in today's culture no matter the context. We are all to submit to each other, even husbands to women. If someone is upset by this issue and assume the people who support Complementarianism are just being biggoted then there is a much larger issue being dealt with. Does biggotry happen? Absolutely. I don't see it with the three men speaking. Scripture is quit clear on this issue. It is only because of the influence on our current culture that this issue has turned into a grey area despite Scripture being counter cultural. If you are more concerned about who has authority over who you are missing the point. Husbands should love their wives so greatly and be so submitted to God that wives want to follow them. Women should love and respect their husbands and be so in love with God that the husbands can't help but to love her sacrificially and care to her needs. Until we figure this out for our own spouses, how can we learn to live sacrificially for others? Our Friends? Our enemies? No, instead, we seek after sordid gain,selfishness and position (no matter how important culture says it is) instead of laying our lives down for one another. We have become distracted and missed the goal entirely. We took Satan's bait hook line and sinker and now we are being reeled in by wordly culture with a smile on our face thinking we're doing good looking out for our own well being (both men and women). This is a very sad state of affairs. His people, the church, was meant for so much more. Mean to show his love to our generation, now take up arms with it. Mean to be different for OUR LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER. Instead we bicker for position. We were meant for so much more...

[@michaellautermilch9185]

I don't think you've read Ephesians 5 very carefully. The original language is actually 100% clear that mutual submission is not intended, because the word for submit is not in Ephesians 5:22 but is implied from verse 21. In the original language it should read something like: "...submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ, wives to your husbands..."

[@Heretical_Theology]

@@michaellautermilch9185 Totally agree.

[@ellenpearl6466]

This is quite wonderfully stated.

[@subjecttochrist]

Every comment that I have read that advocates women preachers, provides ZERO scriptural precedence for their claim of 'egalitarianism' other than a changing of the times/culture. We're talking about a woman PREACHING/TEACHING/EXERCISING AUTHORITY OVER a man; this order is specific to the church (aka body of believers: not workplaces, etc.). There's a time and place for women to teach (women teaching women for example, in Titus 2), but it's a blatant disregard for God's word to usurp the authority of scripture, in order to hear your own hot air justifying sin. We don't get to fashion a God of our own liking - His ways are above our ways, His thoughts are above our thoughts - You people (egalitarians) do realize, order in the church isn't something people make up in in their vain imaginations? There's a clear blue print for order in the church, and it's scripture: NOT CULTURE. We (the church) are to be sanctified (set apart) by the word of God; this means that when culture wants change, in order to pander to the feelings of the unrepentant/unregenerate/unbelieving, we stand firm on the word of God, and do not bend when culture wants us to lean to the 'left' or 'right.' We are on the STRAIGHT AND NARROW PATH that leads to life - and it's hard - and few find it. Again, for the 'egalitarians' find scripture to support your claims, not your feelings. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5: 23 Clear order, is plain to see, when you submit to the Word.

[@denisethomson7685]

💯💕

[@janewhitely964]

Joel 2:28; Acts18:24-26; Acts mentions Philip’s four daughters, all of whom were prophetesses.

[@DanielLovesGodWord]

@@janewhitely964 Yes, that's an interesting passage. There is no record in the NT of these ladies preaching in church however. If they were speaking trust to the unsaved there's no issue with that.

[@pastorfred3460]

The problem with their point of view is that it says to women who believe they are called by God to be a pastor/teacher/elder that they are betraying Scripture. Their conclusion is dangerous because it confuses the Biblical concept of moral boundaries and matters of conscience. It also is simply a false choice. To say that complementarian and egalitarian are the only two choices is a fallacy. Too many people conflate the Bible's instruction for the home and the church. I am the spiritual head of my home AND my wife is an elder and lead pastor with me in our church. To say a wife should not have authority over her husband is Biblical. To say that a wife because she is a woman can't have authority over a man in the church is chauvinism.

[@davidolson8537]

This is such nonsense. If the majority of these so-called godly spiritual men actually were as the gentleman to the far right described, then he might have the beginnings of some argument, but that just isn’t the way it is. And there are loads of women who display far greater leadership capability and gift than a whole bunch of men. It’s not a gender issue. It’s based on giftedness. And Those gifts can be given to anyone.

[@acortes7771]

If this is true then why are there many heterosexual marriages where man concede the leadership role to certain women who are better capable of leading in certain circumstances and vice versa? Exactly! Complementarianism doesn't make sense in every case, so to say that this should be by default the only way doesn't follow the natural endowdness of gifts granted to God's creatures. To me its just a cop out at maintaining exclusive power and authority in all facets of life. Just another prime example of injustice in the world.

[@Phil-mt1ql]

Consider - Women are best leading in the home, and men are best leading in the Spirit.

[@acortes7771]

@@Phil-mt1ql You don't think women can lead just as well in the Spirit? Keep in mind that the Spirit which dwells in the temple in God the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in both man and woman.

[@magawestpitbull6217]

Don’t watch what I call Job’s friends pontificating how they see God. My response,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,where were you when God created the universe.

[@JoanKentBible]

I was there, with Him.

[@rogermetzger7335]

To not say something about it (complementarianism) is irresponsible? There are more ways than one to understand the Decalogue. One way is that is’t a list of do’s and don’ts and everyone will go to hell who doesn’t comply. Another way is that it’s a list of promises: “This is what your life will look like as you learn to trust me.” Most of the people who consider themselves Christians today (at least in the United States) have made a profession of faith because they have been told that they would go to hell if they failed to do so. I was born in 1944. With the encouragement of my parents, I had memorized at least 150 Bible passages from the Hebrew Bible, the Gospels and the Epistles before I was thirteen and I was well acquainted with at least that many Bible stories. My dad repeatedly told me, “Read for yourself, study for yourself and think for yourself. I never heard either of my parents say (and I'm sure they didn't believe) that anyone would go to hell for failure to make a profession of faith in Jesus. Instead, they encouraged me to compare the record of the life of Jesus with the prophecies about him. Faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) and I don’t know of any stronger evidence that Jesus is who he claimed to be than the way those prophecies were filled in his life and ministry. I agree with complementarianism (as you gentlemen have defined it) but I’m not dogmatic about it because I think dogmatism is driving more people out of the Christian church than are being attracted by it. Most Christians are accustomed to creeds. On the other hand, creeds tend to dogmatism so I have an idea about how to minimize that danger. More about which upon request.

[@jodicunningham8912]

To Piper, how we're the prophets, teachers and apostle women on the Bible disobeying God?...They were eaten by lions too? They were martyrs too?

[@bigdw9545]

There are no female apostles in the Bible. Just in case you are going to reference Junia in Romans 16:7, it does not say that she was an apostle.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

In my study of learning about mutuality vs. patriarchy/complementarianism and presenting my views and opinions, I have been called names that I am a Satanist feminist, finding things to tickle my ears, my salvation doubted, blinded by satan etc-a real show of true Christian love. When I state how Christian patriarchy with its many rules mostly aimed at women, has morphed into spanking “disobedient” wives and the stories of abused wives who did nothing but submit and obey are in the hundreds, I hear the same old argument that how they practiced a twisted from of patriarchy , not the correct way- My question is, if those who truly believe patriarchy/complementarianism is God’s will for the Christian life what are they doing to help these hurting women and show them Christian love and offer healing? Under patriarchy the only biblical answers seem to be go back to your husband and be more submissive and without speaking a word you will win him to Christ and how God hates divorce-both scriptural admonitions. Yet this advice rarely works--- Why? In fact, from what I have seen the only ones who are stepping up to the plate to offer help and resources to these abused wives are those who believe the bible teaches mutuality-sites such as bare marriage. I wonder how much time do pat/comp believers actually spend in correcting badly practiced patriarchy --- do any of them spend time going to the sites like biblical gender roles that teach spanking wives is biblical -do they spend time correcting them of their errors?

[@janewhitely964]

Any site or channel advocating physical punishment of a spouse needs to be shut down.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

@@janewhitely964 i wish it would and not sure why the authorities have not done anything--probably because it has to do with "consenting adults"

[@manuelayaneva6226]

RIP. No women were interviewed that day.

[@Leadeshipcoach]

I have to respond to this. I normally do not respond to these type of videos. But a lot of what is argued here I find troubling… and this is why. I am currently doing research on the entire subject- researching both sides. The arguments these men are making, the interpretative principles they are using to argue why complementarism is correct ( and why egalitarianism is wrong) and why men need to be in charge/lead and women are to submit/obey, are the exact same arguments that were made by pro-slavery christians, pastors and theologians during the civil war era. They are utilizing the exact same arguments and principles. Pro- slavery theologians argued for the right of slave masters to own slave as a God-given , God- ordained decree. They arguments were rooted in man’s rule or headship over the woman/husband- that is the household codes of Ephesians and Colossians. They argued from Genesis ( some arguing from Adam being made the head over Eve) and believed that from the very beginning it was decreed by God to be so - that white men were to own and rule over slaves. The abolitionists of the day argued on the basis of Jesus’ words “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” as the reason why slavery was wrong and contrary to the spirit of Christianity. Pro-slavery pastors and theologians argued that this was not a refutation of slavery, that there was not one word in the Old or New Testament that spoken against slavery and that the “plain meaning and reading of the biblical text” on slavery showed clearly that it was the will of God. The “plain reading of the text” argument is often used by complementarian pastors and theologians. In this way they dismiss any possible reconstruction of a “sitz im laben” behind texts like I Timothy 2:8-15. “The Scriptures are very clear!” they argue- but so did the pro slavery theologians and pastors. It was also argued by pro slavery pastors and theologians that christians who argued to free the slaves were going against scripture, were setting themselves as “God over God” and were “capitulating to the culture of the day “ rather than submitting to the plain truth of God’s word. Why do I write this? Because if Carson, Keller and Piper are consistent and true to the hermeneutical principles espoused in this video- and if we apply it to the issue of slavery as presented in Scripture ( and slaves are mentioned as part of the household codes of Ephesians 5- the husbands, father and master were one and the same in the first century Greco-Roman world; something pro-slavery theologians knew) then what we end up with is an affirmation of slavery. We would have to admit that Southern theologians who champion slavery on the basis of Scripture were correct and that Northerns and Christian abolitionists were wrong in seeking the freedom of slaves- as a matter of fact they were contradicting the Word of God. And it wasn’t just theologians of major seminary’s who held these views- so did major denominations of the antebellum South:the Southern Baptist, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Methodist. To argue as these men do in the video that questioning Scripture about the role of men and women , who leads and who is in charge is not being faithful to Scripture or is trying to ”get around the plain command of Scripture” and will lead to compromise of other issues- is to not look at the whole picture. What is being questioned is not the word of God. What is being questioned are particular interpretations of the word of God. Interpretations that would ultimately end up hindering and restricting half of the body of Christ due simply to their gender. I am glad that abolitionists questioned the interpretations of the ongoing validity of slavery in their day. If not I would still be a slave today. If make me wonder and ask: if theologians Piper, Keller and Carson were alive during the civil war- how would they have argued? Would they have argued for my freedom? If so - on what basis? Neither Jesus, Paul or any writer of Scripture argued for the freedom of all slaves or the sinfulness of owning slavery- and neither did any early church father. If we are “true to the words of Scripture “ if we believe they are the inerrant word of God without error ( and by the way- I hold this view) and hold to the “plain meaning of the text” then we would have to conclude that slavery is the will of God- and since Scripture cannot be broken, is for us today also ( in the text of Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3 there is no indication based on a “plain reading of the text” that slavery was temporary or only a “cultural thing”.) Oh and the oft heard argument that “men are to exercise a kind, loving, benevolent headship/leadership” as complementarians - the same argument were made by pro slavery theologians concerning how Christian slave owners /masters were to treat their slaves. It is these exact arguments used by complementariams and by pro-slavery theologians of the south that suggests to me that we must question and re examine our understanding and interpretations of those text that deal with men, headship, women and their role in the church. And if anyone reading this wonders if I believe there is a biblical basis for the freedom of slaves and the abolition of slavery - yes I do. Ot is within the text and is the reason I believe in the equality of women and for them not to be restricted in church leadership roles due to gender.

[@veronikaatthewell9116]

Male Christian speakers explaining to each other and a male audience why it is pleasing to God to forbid women to be in any sense leaders in the church and to engage in any activity that may infiltrate the male mind with substandard female exegesis, as long as you give this ideology a new name, explain to women what a beautiful thing it is to be powerless and voiceless and that it will be much nicer this time than during the first 2000 years. Their claim is that those who do not subscribe to the standpoint that 1 Timothy 2:12 is an order for all times move away from reading the Bible as God's word. What happened to passages like Deborah being appointed as judge over Israel, Christ making women the first witnesses of the resurrection or "there is neither male nor female before God"? And is marriage between man and woman not a picture of God and the believer, and do not all believers have the task to proclaim Christ? Ironically, the same people who will explain you that the Christian message remains true, even if proclaimed by a preacher who turns out to be a child molester or sexual predator, the same people who preach that we must make every effort to witness about Christ to all mankind, these same people put it on their agenda to oppose any woman proclaiming or explaining the message, as if talking about Christ would make her a radical feminist. Rather appoint a 25 year old boy with porn addiction as an elder or preacher than - Heaven forbid! - a 50 year old woman.

[@Phil-mt1ql]

As you make clear, a lot of unworthy people (both sexes) assume spiritual authority in churches, covens, cults, etc. for their own ends. From the comments above : MushroomsAretheBest 3 months ago (edited) Definitely need prayers and humility to seek wisdom from scriptures (and not to discount the valuable counselling of mature believers/leaders) over the application of God's truth! For me (a white-collar professional woman who struggles with submission), it helps to always remind myself as a human what is my identity in relation to Christ, then what is the church's identity in relation to Christ, then also what is the marriage/family in relation to Christ. Everything else is secondary. God is Lord over my life, my career, church service, family, etc. If I need to submit to my husband or church elders who are men, God gets the glory. If I have the opportunity to preach and share (outside the pulpit), I seize it and do it, for God gets the glory. If I get to help build a brother in Christ in His knowledge of Christ so that he can grow and become a leader and I eventually submit to Him in the future, God gets the glory. One can also seek to serve God in various other ministries apart from teaching and preaching! If the church needs someone to clean the toilet/gardening, so be it, God gets the glory! We are no less valued in Christ's kingdom whether man or woman, whether preaching or cleaning the toilet. In all things, whether complementary or egalitarian, we must always remember we are first Christian, under Christ and submission to God and Christ is a given, whether we are man/woman. If we understand this submission under God's rule through the authority of the scripture, all things are clearer to pray over and there is Godly humility (not to be confused with passive idleness/humility that many woman struggle with service ministry) to heed God's will and honour His created order. Following any scriptural exposition, we are also called to exercise compassion, grace and humility in (i) seeking application wisdom, (ii) counselling/discussing with others, (iii) persevere in obeying/actually doing the difficult, counter-cultural calling. It is also wise to keep in mind that scriptural truths are to be honoured above all, even if the essence of God's truth risks offending the counterparty. Easier said than done but may the Holy Spirit leads us in these matters!

[@atestring100]

Who appointed the gospel coalition to say what safeguards are . Any group can self appoint themselves to set standards and call themselves the authority

[@solitairecat1]

Satan put them in charge of all those who want to follow him.

[@atestring100]

So is there a ecclesiastical prison for women that teach in church

[@jencl3863]

Umm...didn't they say right in the beginning that this isn't a salvific issue? Probably good to listen to that part again.

[@joyrajarathnam7446]

while i respect Tim Keller , and love his sermons, he is floundering here , he is unable to give a straight answer ! And as for Piper, i have no words to describe how i feel listening to him... In general, it is believed that men actually benefit from patriachy/gender inequalities; it is to the benefit of men to keep the means of their privilege hidden from critical examination. No wonder, there is no woman on the stage nor in the audience that the camera managed to capture.

[@michauxburn]

1 Man + 1 Woman = 1 Flesh

[@Ben-qb3xe]

Biblically inspired Words and therefore alligned with the Holy Spirit

[@joannav9146]

What???!!! Where in the Bible is it written that "godly masculinity" is anything OTHER THAN love, joy, peace, kindness, self - control, sacrifice, humility????? It takes a very strong man to show discipline in his own personal life as then it flows to all other aspects. Human flourishing is being Christlike - show me Christlike people and I'll follow.Yes, it is serious - you (Gospel Coalition) still say that to be a 'good' Biblical Christ - follower is to be complementarian. You are really imposing a complementarian position. Just be honest please.

[@Autonomous_Don]

Im am angry with these men, but as I have come to know God more and more my pity for them increases…. I wish Tim turned. It’s not too late for John…we’ll see…

[@smedlz]

Because the Bible says so. The end.

[@lizotoole8860]

why are there no women in the audience?!?

[@gospel-shapedlife2610]

😂😢

[@urbanvoice5323]

Do you know what the gospel coalition is before you ask such a question?

[@msroseberry]

I wondered the same but I figured its a men's conference or coalition....so now I have to google it, lol

[@theunicornreader]

Complementarianism = The Good News of the Holy Bible + a BIG P.S. sign for women

[@erc9468]

Egalitarianism = The Good News of the Holy Bible - the stuff I don't like about gender roles

[@acortes7771]

theunicornreader, these three men and all Complementarians are interpreting certain Scriptural passages out of context. When Paul is reprimanding the women in the new Christian Churches he's doing so because there's no order in these pagan converted people who continue in their disorderly and chaotic practices. He's not outlawing all women from teaching men or preaching. He's being specific to that circumstance in those particular churches not to be interpreted as a universal prohibition. These three men and the entire Gospel Coalition will never concede this truth regarding these specific texts. And here lies the problem!

[@ryanangelo8392]

@@erc9468 Complementarianism = the Good News of the Holy Bible minus the stuff that complementarian men don't like. Complementarian men ignore and disobey the Biblical mandate telling them they can never remarry and have sex again if they divorce (for nonbiblical reasons).

[@rodalmond8210]

We are in end Times! Satan appearing as an angel of light. Even the elect will be deceived IF it were possible. If any man preaches another gospel let him be accursed!

[@shelleyd9910]

Like Islam, thats a different gospel.

[@atestring1379]

there is a book by Loren Cunningham named Why Not Women? the guys should read it

[@bobpolo2964]

the bible is better

[@atestring1379]

@@bobpolo2964 Then use the Bible instead of the made up complimentarism that was written by Jonn Piper

[@bobpolo2964]

@@atestring1379 Can you summarize the book?

[@julieannemuir8952]

My son never had to ask me what it meant to be a man and not a woman.....that shows his lack of insecurity about who is is...

[@davidhawley1132]

Piper assuming people are taking a non-traditional view out of fear is ... okay, I’ll say it, slander.

[@denisethomson7685]

There is no more male female or Jew in Christ . Both men and woman have their own strengths and purpose. Scripture says woman and children rule over you and do err.

[@branver1172]

That verse is translated so many different ways.

[@TheSMEAC]

TGC is barely a complementarian organization

[@joyrajarathnam7446]

You cant leave women outside the "gospel" , gospel means good news, so the gospel is not good news for women.

[@jpielemeierpianist]

the last sputtering cries against the turning tides. sigh... it must be tough to feel your whole system of religion disrupted by culture. when in reality, the first to tell of the resurrection were women, and there were women leaders and teachers and business people in the early church, noted in the Acts and epistles. The verses prohibiting women speaking in church are referring to disrupting chatter during services. Christianity has actually been historically progressive in promoting women's rights and the equality of genders in both marriage and culture. God bless and peace be with you

[@subjecttochrist]

Wrong. culture always changes, but the word of God does not change. the first women that saw Jesus only reported a testimony of what they had seen: they gave a witness, and that DOES NOT equate to teaching a gathering of men and women. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5: 23... Christianity is only progressive in the sense that the message of the gospel will be spread throughout the nations: that Jesus died on the cross, to save us from our sins and he was raised from the dead, literally, 3 days later. the gospel is not about men/women's rights, and if that's what you're taking away from scripture, you need to repent and believe in Jesus. You're struggling with order in the church; we are to be sanctified (set apart) from the world and culture, not blend right in with the changing of the times.

[@arizonadude3537]

@@subjecttochrist i don't think he was saying the Gospel is primarily about men's or women's rights, but that the radicalness of it was also historically radical in the realm of gender relations. For example, as Tim Keller (on this panel and the most acceptable of the group) has mentioned that writing about how women attested to the resurrection is exactly NOT what you would do if making up a story in antiquity, because women were unlikely witnesses and to be believed. Going along with this view of women in antiquity, they were not considered proper individuals as we think of in modern times... women could not own property and if divorced were usually left destitute, which was why Jesus spoke so strongly against divorce. Women were often treated like property in times of antiquity incl Roman culture, however Jesus always treated women with dignity, and this tradition continued in the early church. Many would argue, in line with the likes of Jordan Peterson, that the foundation of Western culture, which has allowed women to be more than men's property and e.g. pursue meaningful lives and careers, was an innovation of Christianity, and part of the dignity and worth it ascribed to individuals (e.g. women).

[@subjecttochrist]

@@arizonadude3537 again... if you're reading the gospels, and are getting "women's rights" as the big takeaway, or any other social agenda, aside from Jesus dying for your sins and rising again on the third day, you're missing the whole point. To quote Jordan Peterson, in matters of faith, is a mistake: I've never seen him profess belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in any interview, and scriptures are spiritually discerned: the mind of the unbeliever cannot comprehend scriptures; women in ministry played an important role, in the scriptures: the scope of a woman's role in ministry is not to preach or teach men, because this is clearly written. in matters of faith, from a Christian perspective, you must point to scripture for precedence, instead of lean on your own understanding to rationalize how things ought to be: ultimately justifying sin and making gods in our own image, instead of submitting to the order that God has prescribed for HIS church.

[@arizonadude3537]

@@subjecttochrist I am not "getting women's rights as the big takeaway." I am simply pointing out, as many have, incl. Tim Keller, that historically Christianity and the Bible actually have been, you could say, "progressive" in their context, that is to say in relation to the surrounding culture. Compare for instance the Code of Hammurabi to the OT prohibitions. This is actually a positive argument for Christianity, against the diatribes by aggressive atheists as to its brutality, etc, not sure why you would want to argue against this point. As to your charge of not pointing to scripture, I am afraid it really is an empty one, as the Bible is actually full of examples of women prophets, leaders, and even teachers, from Romans 16:7 (Paul refers to Andronicus and Junia as apostles), Romans 16:1-2 (mention of Phoebe, a deacon), and in Romans 16 where Paul is praising the husband and wife team Priscilla and Aquila in their efforts to spread the Gospel. It's actually egalitarian Christians who would like to point to these Scriptural and historic precedents, against the types who have made a singe verse about not chattering in church into systematic theology.

[@subjecttochrist]

arizona dude thanks for the reply! I understand what you mean and I agree with your first point. But, going to have to do some more research on your second paragraph. Thanks for the thoughtful response!

[@mtcstyle]

How does complementarianism reflect the gospel more when compared to egalitarianism? Given passages like Genesis 1:27 and Galatians 3:28, are not the authors implying that our identity transcends gender? Are we not all one in Christ? It seems to me complementarianism in the church gets its support more from the results-oriented, narcissistic, dog-eat-dog world of the American corporation rather than the good news preached by Jesus of Nazareth.

[@IAmisMaster]

Michael Collins Except there is no evidence that women had authority in the church for 2000 years...yet you claim it's American corporatism? Have you ever read any early Christian writings?

[@solitairecat1]

Jesus said alone is to be called teacher and leader and all his followers are equal in Matthew 23: 8 & 10. Paul similarly stated that all members of Christ's body are equal regardless of nationality, gender or societal status in Gal 3:28. In Paul's Corinthians church all member exercised their spiritual gifts for the benefit of the congregation as a whole 1 Cor 12 & 14. The church structure where someone stands at the front on a pedestal teaching the congregation is quite the opposite of what Christ and Paul spoke of.

[@IAmisMaster]

Kate E 1) That's not a consistent interpretation of Matthew 23:8-10, since there are plenty of ordained leaders and teachers in the rest of the New Testament. Besides, this undermines your position that women should be church leaders since according to you there should be no teachers or leaders. Jesus is saying that he and God are the ultimate leaders, so don't put anyone above or on the same level as him, since everyone shares a common teacher/leader/father. 2) So don't you think if Paul meant what you're saying Galatians 3:28 implies, that he wouldn't contradict himself elsewhere by disallowing women to teach men [citing the creation event as justification], using language that a bishop/pastor must be "husband of one wife" and all sorts of gendered language? You know this would have been a radical change from the times. Why wouldn't he be clear about it? Radical change requires clarity. What Galatians 3:28 means is everyone is equally valued by God, same as children are valued just as much as adults. Mom still doesn't let Johnny and Therese run the show just because they're valuable. God created an order, and it's wise to ask God what that is and stick to it. 3) I completely agree that all men and women can exercise spiritual gifts. Leadership isn't a spiritual gift like prophecy, tongues, etc. I don't know whether everything about modern church structure is correct, but the fact that men are church leaders isn't one of the incorrect things. What you are claiming is not only that 2000 years of church history is wrong, but that the Biblical authors failed to even clarify this radical departure from the time and even promoted these "gendered stereotypes."

[@solitairecat1]

Progger_Frogger I have no desire to be a church leader. My goal is to adhere to Christ's commandments so I can be an member of his eternal kingdom. He commanded that we only call him teacher and leader and that's what I do, I don't call anyone teacher or leader, no one! You should do some research on the Pastoral Epistles. They contradict the equality in the body of Christ because evidently they were not authored by Paul. What you've done is leavened the truth with lies and now you are not following Christ's commandment which is necessary to be part of the kingdom of heaven. Don't let them fool you into believing Galatians 3:28 doesn't reflect complete equality in the body of Christ! Leadership isn't a spiritual gift at all because Christ is our only teacher and leader! This is the slick language they use to deceive you into following them which puts you on the broad road to destruction. In Ezekiel 34 it explains how Christ replace all shepherds to become our ONE shepherd. He is the only way to God, these guys are not the way to God. You must study scripture for yourself because that is how we are sanctified John 17:17. These guys are false shepherds and following them will only lead you to destruction.

[@IAmisMaster]

Kate E Okay, well at least you're consistent with the no leaders thing. I could point to New Testament verses were there are clearly appointed leaders, but I see bigger problem: "You should do some research on the Pastoral Epistles. They contradict the equality in the body of Christ because evidently they were not authored by Paul. What you've done is leavened the truth with lies and now you are not following Christ's commandment which is necessary to be part of the kingdom of heaven." By who or what's authority to you have to determine which parts of the New Testament is true? And why is it, conveniently, Galatians 3:28 that is spared of all the leaven and lies?

[@marcelwillieniles3816]

I dont see much of the community guidelines for respect and Christian love in the comments...all I see is THE FULL EXHIBITION OF THE FLESH by rebellious people that profess the name of CHRIST...I say profess!!!

[@codymarkley8372]

Yep

[@magawestpitbull6217]

No disrespect to these men BUT THIS VIDEO DEPICTS MAN’S GOSPEL NOT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

[@DanielLovesGodWord]

That's quite a comment. All of Scripture must be obeyed including any passages that make us feel uncomfortable. 1 Cor 14:33-35, 1 Tim 2:11-13 state that woman should not teach men in church. So it is Scriptural for this to be discussed.

[@ValLeeWeblog]

This is insane! All we need is the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21; not additions, no subtractions, no men's added teachings. And no Christian hierarchy!

[@kennstack01]

Read again about the Church in the NT.

[@ValLeeWeblog]

@@kennstack01 To be a pastor, one must know the Bible from cover to cover with no additions and no subtractions so he is never made ashamed of any lack of knowledge. He must meet all the requirements of an elder or pastor listed in the books of Timothy, Titus, Ephesians 4, etc. Behold Stephen who was a deacon and how he knew his Bible and presented a walk-through before he was stoned and went to heaven. (It is my heart to follow the apostles' example. For many walk according to what they think or have experienced or what others think or have experienced. This hurts my heart and such actions made Paul and the other apostles weep. We are to walk according to the apostles' examples and teachings without questioning; 1 Corinthians 11:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Peter 3:2 and Jude 17. Those who do not are the enemies of Christ, whose end is their destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is their shame, who set their minds on earth things; Philippians 3:17-19)

[@julieannemuir8952]

@@ValLeeWeblog You forget the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to be able to recite the Bible word for word, it is another to be able interpret with love, discretion and wisdom which is required!

[@DanielLovesGodWord]

Because all we need is the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 the passages that state woman should not speak in church must be interpreted and dealt with. Hence the reason for the discussion :)

[@ValLeeWeblog]

@@DanielLovesGodWord Yes, women are to be silent in the churches due to Eve's sin. Women must also wear their hair long (except for cancer or unable to grow) and married women must wear the headcovering as I do when I attend church.

[@drb8786]

Was it ok for women to work in the factories when men were at war?. Is it ok for a women to continue to take care of property and business when her husband dies? Is it on for women to raise her kids by herself when a deadbeat walks out? If yes to any of these questions then why cant women talk to men about theology? You fools need to learn about historical context. There's historical and cultural reasons why paul said what he did when writing to Timothy.

[@jencl3863]

Why do you think that is what they are saying? The Bible says women are not to exercise authority over men (1Tim2:12). We can still work, we can still teach women/kids, share the gospel with men and women etc. Paul Washer once said women need theology, ALL people need theology. Piper and Carson are not saying that women should just be robots or anything. This has nothing to do with single-parents or discussion on theology.

[@atestring100]

UH OH Priscilla and Aquila both taught Apollis! Since a woman taught a man Apollis must have had an invalid conversion!!!!!

[@jencl3863]

Aquila is Priscilla's husband. She is not being an authority over Aquila. They both taught ApollOs, in a home, not a church where Priscilla was assuming to be a preacher. Women CAN and SHOULD share the true gospel, like she did, along with her husband, to Apollos, who at the time, only knew of John the Baptist's baptism. Nowhere in the Bible, and I have certainly never heard a complementarian teach, that if a women told you the gospel, you're not saved.

[@DanielLovesGodWord]

Do we have any record that she taught Apollis in a church setting? That she was preaching or church? Or was this couple teaching him together in a home setting?

[@etheriondesigns]

What these men are basically saying is that my female Pastor, who has done a better job than any male pastor I have ever seen, should step down because she she was born female.

[@2timothy23]

+davis3d No offense, but you're misunderstanding what's being said here based on your view towards your female "pastor." That's your opinion or your emotions; we don't base the calling of being a pastor based on those things. If we do, we violate Colossians 2:8 and Proverbs 3:5-7. 1 Timothy 2:9-15 explains the reason for the woman's role and the key is verse 13 and 14; it is based on God's created order. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 gives the qualifications of a bishop/pastor/elder and one is his headship as a man/husband/father based on verses 2, 4, and 5. Titus 1:6 also says the same thing. Also Ephesians 5:22-24 tells us the role of a wife and the reason is shown in verse 23. 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 also shows the proper appearance for a woman in submission, verse 3 being the key. Colossians 3:18 and 1 Peter 3:1-6 also shows the submissive role for women, and the key here is God's order based on holiness. All of these verses show that women are to be submissive and know their role; this doesn't negate their worth, abilities, or intellect; it is not what God would have them to do based on scripture. And by the way, do a word study on the words submit and subjection in the Bible; they are Greek words that are military terms; which means it is an order to be obeyed. It is sad that many women feel it is beneath them to submit in their roles when everything God says is good. The opposite is undercover feminism and is plaguing the churches now. This is a shame and it is ungodly.

[@etheriondesigns]

Eric Smith You could have just said "yes", because you just confirmed what I was asking. There is no command from God in the verse from Timothy, and no suggestion that Paul was establishing church policy for all time. If you truly believe that everything in the Bible is established for all time, then please go outside, pick up a stone and start throwing it with the attempt to kill people who work on Sundays. I could give plenty of examples of things that were commanded which don't apply when taken out of context, but I think you get the picture. If what he said was universal and for all time, then why were there female ministers in the Churches of Philippi, Thessalonica, Cenchrae, and Rome?

[@2timothy23]

davis3d You are incorrect, everything in scripture is for all time, but the application must be understood. This is the problem with many reading the Bible, they tend not to understand the dynamics of the spiritual truth of scripture. When this is done, you actually make the Bible contradict itself and make it of none effect. So let me answer your objections. First, the sad example so many use from the Old Testament to quiet Christians about New Testament verses misses the point that the Old Testament was under a theocracy, which means a holy, righteous God was to be their King. In this respect, God's laws were absolute and punishable by death. The New Testament is the church, not Israel, so while we honor a day of rest, we do so by grace and don't punish individuals for violating it with death. Remember, the laws of the OT were to be observed by Israel and any kings God set up. In the NT, we are strangers in pagan lands where God's theocratic laws don't apply. If it did, then we would punish those that broke the laws of God according to that. Second, women ministers don't equate to leading congregations in the church. The verses I sited give the reasons; the created order. That is Paul that said that, not me. And they are plain in scripture, not taken out of context. Third, if we want to use your logic, which commands don't apply for church policy for all time? How about all of Ephesians 4:11-32, which gives us moral commands not to lie, steal, be angry, renew our minds, etc? How about Ephesians 5:1-11, which tells us not to be like the world? How about 1 John 2:15-17, which basically tells us the same thing? How about Ephesians 5:22-33, should I not love my wife like Christ loves the church and my wife not submit to me as head of the household because those aren't church policies for all time? What about the qualifications for bishops and deacons in 1 Timothy 3:1-13, do we throw that out as well because that isn't a command for today? If you want to be consistent, we can pick and choose what we want. Fourth, how about addressing the verses I first wrote and tell me the context of women in all of them? Are they supposed to be a Bishop? Then why 1 Timothy 3:2 and 3:4-5? Is my wife not supposed to submit, then why Ephesians 5:22-24 and 1 Peter 3:1-6? Or are you telling me our holy, self-existent, all powerful God that is our Holy, righteous Creator doesn't understand our modern thinking when He inspired scripture? Does His Word change with culture? Well, culture embraces feminism, homosexuality, fornication, and murdering babies, so therefore we shouldn't listen to any verses that are against it according to that type of thinking. No offense, but your argument for women leading in these areas is weak, unbiblical, and merely opinion based on traditions of some denominations. And Colossians 2:8 says, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." This is what you're are doing with your assertions and scripture tells me to beware of it. Because of this, I reject it. I humbly stand by my first post.

[@danrebolledo8385]

+davis3d I would also add that you are misunderstanding apostolic authority. In addition, if we see NT church instructions as a cultural import which are optional for us to adopt or not, we are putting ourselves in a position of critical authority over scripture. A historical result of such practices it the Roman Catholic Church, which asserted ecclesiastical authority over the authority of scripture. biblehub.com/sermons/auth/adeney/apostolic_authority.htm

[@shunt_solakian.]

Scripture, scripture, scripture. Is it that hard to see...noones interested in mans opinion...a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

[@aaamarco3]

Respectfully, I think Keller is wrong to actively avoid the topic of gender roles during evangelism. You are asking people to forsake their own desires and follow Christ. Part of that is fulfilling our duties as men and women Jesus Himself taught that we should count the cost first. Whoever doesn't carry his cross cannot follow Him.

[@atestring1007]

So called complimentarianist all have bad haircuts

[@codymarkley8372]

So you're a complimentarian too eh?

[@riverjao]

So basically, they take all this time to say that they don’t want women to preach. Got it. Waste of time. Goodbye.

[@vilicus77]

I used to believe this crap--family life is much more pleasant now that I don't. Being free from religion, I am now free to focus on being kind to others without judgement or doctrinally imposed strictures on my relationships.

[@raptorsarereal5789]

DA Carson looks like Richard Dawkins... lol

[@matejsakac2031]

that is what I always said to people!

[@bruharry1]

I was thinking that lol...

[@kassimees]

These men should not be followed. They preach a social gospel, not a gospel of salvation

[@thegospelcoalition]

False. Don Carson: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZoOsnoyfqLqMrq8 Tim Keller: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2WmpoWPfdueiqs John Piper: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hIalZXxrq7RkaNE

[@contend8505]

@@thegospelcoalition - Why not post a wide range of what these men say. The Gospel Coalition has promoted Social Justice aggressively. Just look at some of the authors you promote. Thabiti, Joe Carter, Jackie Hill Perry, Jamar Tisby, you promoted a conference where white women were not allowed, you promoted Just Gospel 19 Conference. So stop the foolishness and just admit you are promoting Social Justice

[@kassimees]

@@thegospelcoalition Keller is also replacement theology. He denies the centrality of Israel in God's prophetic plan. He has a watered down gospel. All of those "leaders" in the gospel coalition and TFG are just a club to stroke each other's egos. They are cheap hirelings who have bamboozled the gullible flock. Constant conferences where you grandstand in front of each other. Are you ever going to be mortified on judgement day. Repent and shepherd the flock you self inflated MUKLAPAES (ask a Finn or Estonian what that means)

[@Judahmangi]

Do you have a source for them holding a conference where white women weren't allowed? I genuinely want to know if that's the case

[@kassimees]

@@Judahmangi what do white women have to do with anything?

[@amymantravadi5057]

Interesting question to ask with no women visible in the audience...

[@atestring1379]

Amy Mantravadi these guys are not just this way with women but they think elders are superior to others rather than seeing an elder as someone that serves the people The Apostle Paul referred to himself as a bond servant. these people have a pecking order like a chess board with rooks, kings, bushop,and Knights that push around the pawns

[@erc9468]

.....ergo the ideas of the speakers must be wrong because the people listening to them have Y chromosomes. Makes sense. Logical.

[@alantinoalantonio]

Amy Mantravadi it makes no difference. It doesn't have to mean anything.

[@j.p.4910]

Amy Mantravadi That isn't an argument

[@gavinmaboeta6401]

There wives are still with them. Random women in audience fades against audience members.

[@atestring100]

nyuk nyuck nyuck nyuck.

[@roselauer5025]

People are conforming the word of God to appease the women’s movement. I’m a women and I stand on the word of God andHis order! Women are not to teach men.

[@skimjc]

I dont know... there were female leaders in the early church like Priscilla who taught Apollos. Also, what you have done just right now is also a teaching that speaks to men.

[@5winder]

Calvinism kills --- eternally. Don't deny Jesus Christ, and He won't deny YOU.

[@denisethomson7685]

Isaiah 3:12 Children oppress and women rule over them in err.

[@honestchristianity936]

A lot of emotion below and a lot of it rather unnecessary. The most breathtaking takeaway from this clip is that if you read Claire Smith’s book ‘God’s Good Design’ then you will be able to learn about the validity of the complimentarian position. You can’t make this stuff up!

[@dougwebster1813]

Going back to Genesis, before the fall, there was a God given order, that being, women came from man to be his helper. There was a natural and spiritual order of relationship between Adam and Eve. In that order was harmony. Now, if we allow the Spirit of God to guide us, He will lead us into a peaceful flow of relationship! Where there is contention and strife, the Spirit of God is not there! Yield to His direction abiding in the Word! Where grace and truth is, there Christ is!

[@ryanangelo8392]

@@dougwebster1813 "Helper" (Hebrew: ezer) is used in the Bible various times in the context of important acts of help and support. Helper (ezer) does not mean "less than" or "subordinate," yet so many Christian men interpret it this way relative to women.

[@atestring100]

look at the hairstyles of Larry, Moe, and Curly and listen to the goofiness of these stooges I needed a good laugh