Why Janeway was Right on how to get home

This video breaks down Janeways decision to go to the Delta Quadrant
Trek Chapters!
00:00 - Intro and Bajoran Plothole?
00:40 - Canonized Maps
01:22 - 3D Maps
01:50 - Why Delta Quadrant is better
02:10 - Bajoran Unstable?
02:27 - Dominion Threat
02:55 - Intrepid Advanced Ship
03:08 - My Unqualified Opinion
03:44 - Certifiably Ingame Theory
04:15 - Truth about Sf Officers
04:44 - The Borg Argument
05:20 At the end of the day
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[@EP3mentalist]

Imagine if Janeway manage to get voyager to the bajoran wormhole in a couple of years then ran straight into the minefield lol

[@480JD]

A pleasant thing to imagine.

[@tankedwarthog6424]

Killed by her own people sounds kinda like Starfleet

[@Paleorunner2]

That would have been funny!

[@johnhollo6881]

Thats what i was thinking!

[@85Funkadelic]

Should have had trouble getting past that Dominion fleet stacked up on the other side of the wormhole but you know details.

[@davidthomas2870]

Additional point: making a beeline for Klingon space, the federation's allies or at least not enemies at the time, also makes the trip a fair bit shorter too. Also if you have to hightail it with hostiles on your tail, klingons would be happy to fight them off for you and possibly thank you for bringing them a worthy opponent.

[@Janoha17]

Part of Voyager stopping at every anomaly was them looking for any potential wormholes to shorten their trip. If you add 10,000 lightyears exploring but find a wormhole that sends you 30,000 lightyears ahead, that's a net gain of 20,000 lightyears.

[@MichlVal]

True, I mean, it was a 60 year trip they did in 7 years.

[@jimdigitalvideo]

Correct. They did find shortcuts here and there which shortened the trip.

[@qdllc]

@@MichlVal - 30 years originally before Janeway went back in time to give herself the means to get home sooner.

[@paradox7358]

There is the right way, the wrong way and the Janeway.

[@richardchantlerrico]

Isn't that just the wrong way?

[@DavetheAvatar]

@@richardchantlerrico Yeah, but faster!

[@pendragonshall]

Well said!!!

[@djolds1]

YES! 8)

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

You forgot to mention the Insaneway as well. Or the Psychoway, which involves eating Harry Kim and being a sadist.

[@ailius1520]

Plus, let's be real: Voyager was never going to make it back with warp engines. Their best bet was to encounter another species with advanced technology or some other ability to speed up their journey and to negotiate with them. The gamma quadrant was known to be dominated by the Dominion, which was hostile and had slow ships. If the people with the ships that max at warp 8 are the toughest group around, the odds of running into that friendly species with quantum slipstream are a lot lower.

[@VestedUTuber]

That's assuming 1. Dominion space covers a majority of the gamma quadrant (with a maximum speed of Warp 8 that isn't exactly feasible. Based on the galaxy map shown in the video even the Federation covers only a small portion of space along the Alpha and Beta quadrant border) and 2. the Dominion is still hostile by the time voyager reaches them (admittedly a logical assumption, but not what actually happens in that timeframe). Also, keep in mind that in the original timeline Voyager actually does make it on warp, but then Future Janeway decides to metaphorically use the Temporal Prime Directive as toilet paper.

[@batfleckforever3594]

Seems like the Delta Quadrant has the oldest and most advanced races in the galaxy.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Two things i always thought abouti the whole Premise of Star Trek Voyager: 1) In Stargate, this 70000 LY, Human Spaceships can do this in a Week, the best ships of the Galaxy can do it in Minutes. 2) Don't they just need to reach the Core of the Galaxy and not actually Earth?!?!? I mean, we know that there are friendly, super-advanced People there, who have in fact send people back to the Sol System before, yes???? Remember them? I remember them always!!

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@Mr_Snek That sacrifice is slightly undone since the crew used the captured Borg transwarp drive in the Delta Flyer to go back and rescue Seven. Voyager also used the drive to get further home before the drive failed, but the distance spent rescuing Seven could've been added to their journey home if Seven hadn't been captured. Then again the crew may not have gotten the drive at all since the queen was aware of the heist and only allowed them to leave if Seven stayed.

[@johnhollo6881]

@@VestedUTuber Ive always wished the creatior's had found a way to get Voyager home without using time travel.

[@edapplederry5888]

Random thought that crossed my mind just now. It would have been a nice little nod to TNG if Voyager had passed through system J-25 and somebody mentioned that they are now in the same spot the Enterprise had been. Missed opportunity.

[@Jarsia]

Voyager skipped right over it in the finale. J25 was only about 7000 LY from federation space. Voyager in endgame was 32-35k LY I think.

[@XavionofThera]

J-25 wasn't even in the delta quadrant.

[@RRW359]

@@Jarsia You're assuming Voyager went at the same speed as the Enterprise. Laforge mentioned that a journey from Triangulum to Earth (2.7MLY) would take ~300 years. That gives it a speed of 9KLY/Y. When they got to J25 they said it would take 7 years to get home, which makes it 63KLY from Earth. That's firmly in the Delta Quadrant.

[@TheDarkestSmurf]

@@RRW359 And it's also stated that Voyager would take 75 years to cross 75,000 lightyears of space to get home at their highest sustainable cruising speed of warp 9.975. That's 1,000 lightyears per year of travel. That means that either the Enterprise would have to travel at much higher warp speeds than Voyager would be capable of, although it's repeatedly mentioned that Voyager has the most advanced warp core in the fleet, or Voyager would have to travel at a snail's pace for those statements to match up. My maths skills are shite, so I won't even try to match that to an exponential warp scale. Remember, a spaceship in the Trek universe always travels at the Speed of Plot.

[@RRW359]

@@TheDarkestSmurf When did they ever say Voyager had the most advanced warp core in the fleet? Also Voyager was commissioned after Warp speed limits became a thing. It's also possible that post-Wolf ships had less emphasis on speed and more on combat, not to mention that the Intrepid was never a flagship.

[@nickmccoy85]

Everyone's debating Voyager and i'm over here like, "holy shit, this dude's got titled chapters on his videos?!" The future is now. Thumbs up.

[@FortoFight]

It would've been cool if the writers at least acknowledged the possibility. They even went to DS9 in the first episode.

[@thetransparenttransparentd3675]

K. I acknowledge it.

[@TheRusty]

The problem likely has to do with conflicts between the DS9 showrunners, and Rick Berman, who had a VERY heavy hand in Voyager. Check out Renegade Cut's "Berman Trek" video.

[@PrinceSilvermane]

It would have been nice to have that conversation somewhere though when they were plotting a way back. Even a quick line like mentioning the Wormhole with Janeway dismissing it as "I don't want to travel 70,000 light years for a wormhole that might not be there when we get there."

[@tyrongkojy]

They expected the viewers to be watching the other show and be able to infer it. I have learned many things about writing over the years, and the main one is NEVER trust your audience to figure anything out. You HAVE to tell them.

[@RunnerX13]

@@PrinceSilvermane she did specifically mention looking for wormholes, just not that wormhole

[@richardkenan2891]

Honestly, the already super-advanced Borg getting their hands on an Intrepid class starship is a lot less harmful to the Federation than the relatively on-par Dominion. The Borg are already massively technologically superior to the Federation - their weaknesses are rigid thinking not being the protagonists of a TV series. They won't learn anything to fix either problem from capturing even the most advanced Federation starship. The Dominion, on the other hand, is pretty much technologically equal to the Federation. They have some super-weapons and crew that are genetically engineered to be perfect crews for military vessels, but they have worse warp drives and less ability to figure out and neutralize the strengths of their opponents than the research-and-development obsessed Federation. Letting them capture an Intrepid class starship, with the best and most advanced warp drive the Federation can produce, is a pretty bad idea. Not disagreeing with your analysis, more pointing out that you're even more right than you suggested. As scary as the Borg may be, they won't get appreciably scarier if they capture one starship at the Federation's tech level.

[@Hoganply]

You mean, the Borg coming across Voyager would be _more_ hamrful to the Federation?

[@ozzyfudd9945]

Besides, hadn't the Borg captured many planets and ships by this point? Don't think Voyager was that special. Wasn't that Janeway's argument to the borg queen? We have information about Species 8472, if you let our insignificant ship pass we tell you?

[@Oxideist]

@@ozzyfudd9945 the bio neural gel packs maybe? It doesn't necessarily have to be more advanced than what the Borg have for them to want to assimilate it. Perhaps the technology could adapt their current type of borg tech, or perhaps open up a new field of science they had not previously considered that allows them to move further in that certain field, faster. At the end of the day, if it's over a specific threshold, they want it, if only to add it to their collective for use at a later date.

[@benjaminreynolds3659]

Actually, humpback whales are the most powerful (or most powerfully supported entity) threat to humankind. Per, The Voyage Home, whale cylinder which came the closest to destroying Earth and humanity than any other entity in the cannon.

[@peterpan4038]

@@Oxideist The Voyager lost enough parts in the Delta Quadrant to reverse engineer even the tiniest nuts and bolts. xD And sure, the Borg take what they get, but i think you missed Richard Kenans point: the Borg won't be a bigger threat to the federation based on Voyager tech alone, the strategical disadvantage would be greater if the Ship gets into Dominion hands. After all: the federation has more then "just" the Borg to worry about.

[@MattBaileyPlaystheSlots]

Here’s a theory: we know U.S.S. Equinox ran into hostile territory immediately after departing Ocampa while Voyager avoided it. Maybe this is because they headed in different directions initially with Equinox trying for the Bajoran wormhole? Only after trying for a week or two and losing half his crew in battle does Capt. Ransom give up that course and switch to the longer Delta Quadrant route. I always thought it strange that Equinox ran into such an imposing enemy that Janeway had never heard of but this theory would explain that.

[@ArcaneSky]

It's also possible that Neelix being on board steered Janeway on a different tangent than the Equinox took. Neelix boasting knowledge of the space and where to find supplies, bring them where he's been, instead of into the "obvious direction" that Ransom may have taken.

[@stareyedwitch]

@Edward Stevens Unimatrix 0 could have been an excellent set up for a quick return home story line. It would have made sense, and given an explanation on what happened to them. They also could have brought back the Voth, maybe Gegen shows up on the run with some loyal followers and offers to upgrade their warp engine so everyone can get home. My issue with the end of Voyager is that it is treated like the end of TNG, but should have been setup like the end of DS9. By this I mean over several episodes instead of just hand waved away.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Voyager eventually caught up to the Equinox, so they must have been going on the same course. Janeway just had a much more powerful ship; also infinite shuttles and spare parts.

[@shankleythebest]

@@stareyedwitch technically they did setup the finale a few episodes in advance, with Q giving janeway a navigational pad which set voyager on a course that would bring them into contact with the transwarp hub.

[@johnpooky84]

I had forgotten the Equinox's captain was named Ransom. I can't help but wonder if the first officer on the Cerritos is related to him now.

[@VME-Brad]

I mean, If I were a starfleet captain in that situation I would have listened to my logical Vulcan security chief, and use the caretaker's array to send us home leaving a tri-cobalt explosive on a timer.

[@xheralt]

Would have made for a really short series though.

[@jamoecw]

that was my first thought on watching the very first episode. the excuse she gave was rather silly given the cost.

[@-Nudal]

It was all worth it for 7 though

[@coriolass]

This 100%

[@hydewhyte4364]

Better yet ... leave a tri-cobalt explosive with a logical Vulcan security chief holding the trigger. We all know timers never work for that sort of thing.

[@trisar2146]

Up next: Lore also defends Janeway's decision to destroy the Caretaker's Array, citing the evidence that with a half-wrecked ship, two Kazon battlecruisers, and more Kazon on the way, Voyager is in absolutely no shape to study or even hold the Array? Because a lot of people always seem to forget that point and cite that Janeway's decision was motivated purely by the Prime Directive.

[@raw6668]

The Prime Directive would be to leave the Array alone, as it not Federation technology, but another of a race that abandon it. No, her reason is must worst. Janway let her emotions get in the way and could not watch the Ocompa die for what she felt was their fault. Not thinking about the consequences of her decision for her crew.

[@davfree9732]

I still say they should have upheld Seven's conspiracy theory that Janeway was under orders to grab the Caretakers power core.

[@trisar2146]

@@raw6668 The race didn't "abandon" the Array, the Caretaker literally died in front of Janeway and Tuvok, and his last words were begging them to destroy the Array so the Kazon couldn't use it against the Ocampa. And, again, Voyager was in absolutely no shape to hold the Array--they were still heavily damaged from being brought to the Delta Quadrant to begin with, the Valjean had just been destroyed, and the Kazon had reinforcements coming to help the two battleships they had in the system already. Janeway's choices were "destroy it and leave, abiding by the previous owner's last wishes" and "get destroyed for no good reason and ignore the previous owner's last wishes."

[@andreipiv]

Pretty much this. It's not like Janeway had a button to take them home in one hand, and the detonator in the other. Not destroying the array was no guarantee that they'd get back to the alpha quadrant via the array

[@raw6668]

@@trisar2146 Yes, but she also made it very clear at the end, her choice was based more than emotion then pragism. For I do agree, they had no way to hold it for the hours to get out, but she did as she stated, "For a people, I hardly knew." While also saying it was short-sighted and stupid.

[@bigloudnoise]

I have canon reason to believe Voyager was much closer to the border between the Delta and Gamma quadrants than the map here implies, and it involves the TNG episode "The Price". This is the episode where the Barzan Wormhole had been discovered. According to the probes first sent through the Barzan wormhole, the opposite end was in the Gamma Quadrant. HOWEVER, once Geordi LaForge and the Ferengi went through, they found themselves 200 light years away in the Delta Quadrant. Remember this point, because this is also the episode where the two Ferengi got stuck on the opposite end of the Barzan wormhole. Fast forward to the Voyager Season 3 episode "False Profits". Voyager by sheer coincidence happens to find the two Ferengi that got stuck in the Delta Quadrant after that end of the Barzan Wormhole had vanished. Even under the assumption that the Ferengi continued to navigate in a direction away from the Gamma/Delta border until finally finding the planet where they crashed, once Voyager found them they would be at most a few hundred light years away from the Gamma Quadrant at this point. Therefore, it is likely that flying through the Gamma Quadrant to the Bajoran Wormhole would have indeed been the shorter and potentially faster route to take. THAT SAID...the known threat of the Dominion is also a valid point against flying through the Gamma Quadrant. There's also another aspect in favor of flying through the Delta Quadrant that some people seem to forget...the Friendship One probe. In that episode, it is stated that Starfleet maintained contact with the probe until 130 years prior to Voyager finding it on a planet devastated by a nuclear winter. According to one of the native aliens on that planet, they had "decades" to study the antimatter technology on the probe before the accident that destroyed their planet. By the time Voyager got there, it was evident that whatever had happened had occurred quite a while prior (I do not recall a specific time being mentioned as to when the accident occurred though). This suggests that the probe landed on their planet at pretty much about the same time Starfleet lost contact. Therefore, Friendship One was most likely sending telemetry back to Starfleet from deep into the Delta Quadrant right up until it landed, thus providing a small modicum of sensor data for at least that narrow corridor of the Delta Quadrant. It's possible Voyager was aware of this when they first started their journey, and thus opted to set course in a direction that would eventually allow them to follow that vaguely-known corridor, thereby minimizing the length of time they would be in "unknown" space. Granted, this seems farfetched once you add in the fact that the sensor data they'd be working from is at least 130 years out of date and grows progressively more obsolete the closer you get to well-known space. But, it's still a possibility.

[@2bituser569]

One advantage was in the beginning having Kes and Neelix as guides to the quadrant.

[@thomasdalton1508]

There is no reason to think Neelix knew more about the direction towards to Alpha quadrant than towards the Gamma Quadrant. (Kes didn't know anything.)

[@ivoryabner486]

@@thomasdalton1508 I think they were more so talking about their general knowledge of the species in the Delta quadrant. (edit: typo)

[@bob494949]

It’s almost as if this is fiction and it was written that way. How convenient.

[@thomasdalton1508]

@@ivoryabner486 Neelix only knew a very small portion of the Delta quadrant and they would probably have been in the area he knew for the same amount of their journey whatever direction they went in.

[@666chapelofblood]

@PJPF People seem to hate Kes more than Neelix, but I couldn't fucking stand him even in later series.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

CHOSE THE WORMHOLE: Year of hell becomes an entire season arc.

[@jhmcd2]

Actually it was supposed to be...so I guess it would have been season 5-7, only to end anti-climatically when the Dominion was beaten in the Alpha Quadrant.

[@andrewblanchard2398]

YEAR OF HELL SUCKED no one really wanted 24 episodes of it the KES episode BEFORE & AFTER was way better

[@moguldamongrel3054]

@@andrewblanchard2398 I liked it. Others have said it though, year of hell was basically what made bsg such a great reboot imo. Survival as one struggles to reach home.

[@yobogoya4367]

@@andrewblanchard2398 Yeah, when I rewatch Voyager, as I do all the Star Treks from time to time, I skip these 2 episodes. They are filler.

[@jiminfested]

Definition of no real Scotsman.... It’s fine for you not to like it. You don’t get to determine what a Voyage fan is

[@krzosu]

Heading straight home instead of risking the wormhole seemed like a safer bet and yes the pointed out reasons seem to back it up coherently.

[@mattevans4377]

Has anyone ever written an alternate history where Janeway went through the Gamma quadrant? I'd find such a read fascinating.

[@LosoaII]

Certifiably Ingame ran through the idea of that using Memory Beta information to fill in the gaps.

[@awesomemccoolname7111]

It would be a short read.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Two things i always thought abouti the whole Premise of Star Trek Voyager: 1) In Stargate, this 70000 LY, Human Spaceships can do this in a Week, the best ships of the Galaxy can do it in Minutes. 2) Don't they just need to reach the Core of the Galaxy and not actually Earth?!?!? I mean, we know that there are friendly, super-advanced People there, who have in fact send people back to the Sol System before, yes???? Remember them? I remember them always!!

[@ryancarroll5488]

I think this was a missed opportunity. Like the lack of maquis conflict. This would have been a debate they could have shown on the show with some disagreement and tension. Then layer maybe in borg space some saying at least the dominion only would try to kill us not assimilate us we should have gone the other way etc..

[@ryancarroll5488]

@tylerx2f01 ...another bit of great potential they screwed up

[@sh4d0wfl4re]

I recently did some comparisons of how long it took janeway to travel back to the alpha quadrant and how long it actually took her future self to get back. And I came to a hypothesis, up until Voyager gained the capacity to have Federation supplies beamed over later in the series, Voyager had to travel at a much lower warp 7 and frequently drop out of warp to resupply. After that point Voyager the time it took Future Janeway to get back actually matches our assumptions about warp 9.99x pretty well. So Janeway's ep 1 calculations must have assumed resupplies and the "worst case" of warp 7 and many detours for resupplies/exploration.

[@PrimeEvilDean]

I think the real-life reason is because the writers wanted to distinguish Voyager from DS9. Voyager was more about space exploration, carrying on the legacy of Next Generation, but on the other side of the galaxy. DS9 dealt more with inter-personal relationships and war. That said, within the "canon," I think the Delta Quadrant route was probably the best bet and decided on because as we find out in Voyager, Earth had launched a probe called "Friendship One" many years prior, and thus, we can assume that it was consistently transmitting and mapping the region until it crashed. Also, at no point in TNG does Picard's Enterprise ever visit the Gamma Quadrant. They DID, however, visit the Delta Quadrant at least twice during its 7 year run: Once when Q threw the Enterprise in the path of that first Borg cube, and again when they went to rescue Data from Lore. Therefore, we can assume that the Enterprise further mapped the region a bit during both instances, as well. Simply put: The Delta Quadrant was more familiar territory than the Gamma Quadrant (it still is, actually). Yeah, there were Borg out there, but what are the Borg REALLY known for at around this time? Ignoring you until you become a threat to them. The Dominion, however, would offer no such indulgence.

[@masatotanaka999]

“These people are natural born idiots if you ask me’” - Neelix voyager

[@slevinchannel7589]

Neelifx from Voyager. I recommend to use 'Edit'. Also, Neelix does not understand Science, so... yeah...

[@Jarsia]

"Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi

[@korvasterindar9672]

"Here they are in the most advanced ship in the quadrant and what do they do? 'Oh, lets fly it into some kind of anomaly that might rip it apart!'"

[@korvasterindar9672]

"Here they are in the most advanced ship in the quadrant and what do they do? 'Oh, lets fly it into some kind of anomaly that might rip it apart!'"

[@masatotanaka999]

Slevin Channel its spelt Neelix

[@robertagu5533]

Seeing as Dominion is a known enemy and they ACTUALLY made quite a few friends in the Delta Quadrant plenty of whom even provided combat aid combined with the good video points here she chose right.

[@TheKyrix82]

I don't think the Dominion were an enemy at the start of Voyager, I don't know if they'd been directly encountered yet, but either way, the Federation would have enough intel on them to be EXTREMELY wary of crossing them.

[@SadisticSenpai61]

Well, their job is to explore and make new allies, so by heading straight back through unknown space, they were also doing their job. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

[@PKPhoenix83]

Should have set up the tricobalt devices to detonate seconds after the array sent Voyager home. Problem solved.

[@qdllc]

Nah...that would have been simple and make sense.

[@StarryStarryNocturne]

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Star Trek Voy--oh, wait, nvm, series is over... Bye! :D *insert end-credits theme*

[@-Nudal]

Yeah but.... then we wouldn't have 7!

[@RegBeta]

That would only work if this was just an regular DS9 episode with a few cast members from the space station.

[@Firthy2002]

@Kagan Roy Wrecked the ship pretty badly too. Subjecting it to a repeat experience so soon after without time to make repairs or even properly prepare could have been catastrophic.

[@kevinbrooks9074]

In the quiet of the night aboard the USS Enterprise, Commander Riker and Captain Picard found themselves in the captain's ready room, enjoying a rare moment of relaxation. The stars outside the window formed a mesmerizing backdrop, a reminder of the vastness of space they explored together. "Jean-Luc, do you ever tire of this endless journey?" Riker asked, his voice soft, almost reflective. Picard looked up from his book, a slight smile playing on his lips. "There are moments, Will, when the solitude of command can weigh heavily. But then, I think of the crew, of the friendships we've forged, and it all seems worthwhile." Riker nodded, understanding the sentiment all too well. "We've been through so much together. It's those bonds that keep us going, I think." The captain set his book aside and leaned back in his chair. "Indeed. It's not just the exploration of the unknown that drives us, but the connections we make along the way." There was a comfortable silence between them, one that spoke of years of mutual respect and camaraderie. Riker walked over to the replicator and ordered two glasses of Saurian brandy, handing one to Picard. "To friendship," Riker toasted, raising his glass. "To friendship," Picard echoed, clinking his glass against Riker's.

[@p.j.w7564]

I've always liked Janeway! & i don't think she deserves all the crap thrown her way, you'd have to be a little Cray, Cray to survive the Delta Quadrant! 🤪🌌🛸🌠

[@slevinchannel7589]

Yup, but she did made Mistakes. She's better than Sisko by all means, but not what a Federation Person should be, especially Starfleet. I mean, is Starfleet Academy just an Average or Slightly-Above-Average College?! You have any Idea how much of an Elite Humans can actually create NOWADAYS?! With enough Effort?

[@Dancestar1981]

I think she’s a wonderful Captain

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

@@Dancestar1981 I think so too. I especially love how she meets Q (who can send people across the galaxy with a snap of his fingers) and never once asks him to send Voyager back home, thus ensuring that more members of her crew will die than necessary. She really was a badass, that woman.

[@kyleellis9177]

Janeway's issue, is she has 3 distinct versions that switch between writers.

[@johnpooky84]

@@slevinchannel7589 "Better than Sisko"? I'm very curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

[@VelvetCondoms]

While it was known that the Borg were either native to or more present in the Delta quadrant, it wasn't completely known what sections they controlled, particularly given that their borders shift regularly. There was no way that Janeway would have known which routes would have the least Borg. The fact that the Equinox crew somehow managed to meet up with Voyager without even encountering a cube while Voyager encountered them enough to nerf them proves that point. Also, the Borg do have a facility in the Gamma quadrant. Endgame showed a map of the transwarp hubs.

[@Zachomara]

Does nobody remember what happened the first time the array sent Voyager somewhere? It killed like 20% of the crew.

[@Mike-rt2vp]

Yeah but they're all extras so no one cares.

[@Jarsia]

Pfft, that's an easy fix, everyone just needs to replicate a zorb before they go back

[@danielyeshe]

True but if they were prepared they might survive. Cavit would have if he was in his chair and had a seatbelt.

[@philiptite1082]

@@danielyeshe Wait? Seat belts in the 24th century? :P

[@alexb6234]

Is that counting the people that died during the experimentation the Caretaker did to see if any were suitable matches?

[@brokeneyes6615]

Something to also consider is you’re naturally going to want to go along a resource rich route for refueling and resupplies as well as what your guide (Nelix) can suggest. Their initial route could very well have been decided by Nekix pointing to the third closest system and saying go there for supplies and it continue on like that until they reached that station in season (3?).

[@jgunnels6773]

That's one question I always had about Voyager. Where/How did they refuel and restock supplies, without violating the prime directive? They could have traveled months, maybe years without encountering an advance species.

[@Qaianna]

@@jgunnels6773 In this case, they'd pick warp-capable species Neelix knew of and find their version of a truck stop. 'Five thousand cubic metres of deuterium, please. And some coffee.'

[@tba113]

Good breakdown, and I won't fault Janeway for her decision. (Well, not this decision, anyway.) Given what she knew at the time, it would certainly be less risky to avoid poking the Dominion if they didn't have to. That said, it would have been hilarious to see how the Dominion reacted to Janeway barging in from a completely unexpected direction. My favorite theory on why the Borg didn't simply vaporize the Enterprise in "Q Who?" was because they had _no idea_ how the Big E ended up in Borg territory. They'd already been making limited probes and incursions into Federation territory - when they find a planet with leftovers from a dead civilization, Data says the lack of cities is identical to various Fed outposts that had been mysteriously destroyed - so the Borg had a pretty good idea of what Starfleet tech was like. Aside from being bigger, the Borg wouldn't really have learned much from analyzing the Enterprise - _EXCEPT,_ by their estimation, the Enterprise shouldn't have been able to show up anywhere close to where Q dropped them. The Borg therefore detained and boarded the ship to try and find out what mysterious prototype propulsion tech Starfleet had been fooling around with that had dumped them there. If Janeway were able to convince the Dominion that Voyager was scouting out the way for a larger Starfleet battlegroup about to open up a new front from the Gamma Quadrant, she'd be able to lead them on a merry chase. At the very least, the Dominion would have to spend resources sending survey ships into Borg territory to figure out how the hell Voyager had managed to approach from that direction. At that point, it wouldn't matter if the Dominion figured out that the Starfleet battlegroup she was supposedly scouting for was fictional, because the Dominion's probing of Borg territory would certainly have provoked the Borg into attacking the Dominion themselves, and the Gamma-Delta front gets opened anyway. At that point, any actual damage Janeway might have done to the Dominion's war effort along the way directly - blowing up supply depots and shipyards, liberating client races, appealing to Jem'hadar honor to start rebellions, whatever - would simply be gravy on top.

[@krombopulosmichael6734]

Voyager was lost from 2371, dominion war began 2373. She didn’t have the information about the dominion war which is even mentioned in the show during the episode `Message in a bottle’

[@theangel8381]

Was coming here to say this

[@TheKyrix82]

No, but she might have had information on the Dominion, period. Ever since they were first spoken about, they were implied to be a MASSIVE group, and a fairly hostile one. And they constantly ran into people who ran afoul of the Dominion, and the aftermath was never pretty.

[@esotericallyrelatable2902]

Basically the first time they encountered the Dominion, the Jem'Hadar went kamikaze and destroyed a Galaxy-class ship, and then said to stay out of the Gamma Quadrant. That was in 2370, about a year before Voyager was lost. To be fair, though, the Federation continually ignored this warning. So, I see no reason for Janeway to take it seriously.

[@TheKyrix82]

@@esotericallyrelatable2902 That was the first direct encounter. They had indirect encounters as well. And the Federation had...a federation...behind them to ignore the warning. Janeway did not.

[@estudiordl]

"about Starfleet officer, they are idiots", well, that may be true, but it hurts man... 🤣

[@Shinyspddmn]

That's gotta be the only thing more dangerous than Romulan arrogance... Starfleet stupidity

[@wallamazoo01]

Right? The way to save more lives on their ships is to stop handing out red shirts... you think they'd learn that by this year and time in the Federation.

[@Shinyspddmn]

@@wallamazoo01 while we're at it, stop putting people on Oberth's

[@CanisMythson]

Especially since that Kobiyashi Maru test is friggen *easy*. All you do is put the supplies that the Maru needs to repair their ship on an unmanned shuttle and launch it, unpowered, to the Maru. Starfleet computers should be able to factor that trajectory, and there's no intergalactic incident with the Klingons, because you were just jettisoning unnessicary cargo. You don't risk your own vessel, but you give Maru enough aid to at least give them a chance of survival on their own. It may not in the end save them, but you have done everything the test is actually designed for: To prevent an intergalactic incident, protect your own crew, and find a creative solution in the face of an unwinnable situation.

[@TheGreatBlueBlob]

Great work as always, thanks lore!

[@Peaceforall20111]

AMAZING ANALYSIS, u added points others have missed. intellectually fascinating as usual

[@greenbrown7776]

Ultimately, the real reason for going through DQ instead of GQ is we already had a show with the GQ. Imagine all the potential storyline inconsistencies and continuity issues if two shows with two staffs were both trying to tell GQ stories at the same time.

[@kyleellis9177]

would have only been for 2 seasons, but Yeah they showed the Dominion had most of GQ, so it wouldn't have been an adventure, but more war stuff.

[@BurgerLord99]

Lore: makes a video defending janeway Everyone: * loads metaphorical shotgun *

[@ronin7997]

Janeway is an infallible character and must be protected at all costs - Voyager writing staff

[@slevinchannel7589]

Let's be honest, she often made the right Decision. Including her very First One, and even the very second one, in that Quadrant of the Galaxy.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Two things i always thought abouti the whole Premise of Star Trek Voyager: 1) In Stargate, this 70000 LY, Human Spaceships can do this in a Week, the best ships of the Galaxy can do it in Minutes. 2) Don't they just need to reach the Core of the Galaxy and not actually Earth?!?!? I mean, we know that there are friendly, super-advanced People there, who have in fact send people back to the Sol System before, yes???? Remember them? I remember them always!!

[@EingefrorenesEisen]

You're just as bad as those people who say everything she does is emotional or crazy or whatever. Wouldn't surprise me if you were one of them.

[@InFiHax]

Really liking the content more now it's concise and you did away with the intro. Great video with a nice well reasoned argument. 10/10

[@Jedisage909]

In the words of bugs bunny. Should have taken a left turn at albuquerque

[@slevinchannel7589]

Two things i always thought abouti the whole Premise of Star Trek Voyager: 1) In Stargate, this 70000 LY, Human Spaceships can do this in a Week, the best ships of the Galaxy can do it in Minutes. 2) Don't they just need to reach the Core of the Galaxy and not actually Earth?!?!? I mean, we know that there are friendly, super-advanced People there, who have in fact send people back to the Sol System before, yes???? Remember them? I remember them always!!

[@flappysquirrel5132]

@@slevinchannel7589 ...those ships had advanced tech and access to hyperspace. As far as I know, warp speed is just going really, really fast in normal space.

[@dragonrune6800]

@@slevinchannel7589 Just to be sure, you are talking the Barclay ep where he takes the Enterprise into the "red rift" ? This one is a possibility. I am sure their co-ordinates are somewhere in Voyager's memory banks.

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@dragonrune6800 Yes, 'm talking about the red rift. And yes, the perverted idiot barclay, that one. That barclay. So you agree?

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@grantlandis2747 Yeah, contradicting infos. Contradicting stuff. Whatever. Who knows.

[@Dragon-Zero365]

One thing I never understood, when they got to the delta quadrant, they faced enemies that had never seen them before, with such an advanced ship. Yet were able to board it and hack their systems on their first encounter.

[@wepntech]

good at what they do.

[@AlexandarHullRichter]

Seska.

[@pills-]

Janeway being a Starfleet captain, we should probably be glad she decided not to check and see if the galactic barrier existed in the Delta Quadrant and just didn't go maximum warp to Andromeda :D

[@pietervanderzwaan4295]

She would fly into iconian space or fleet or refuge or... Well it would end badly for them

[@bubba9384]

Even if they had stocked every spare inch with supplies, been on very strict rations, and had no issues Voyager woulden't have made it anywhere close to Andromada before they were completly out...

[@antonlencses8622]

Couldnt they just resuply at star systems they would be pasing by?

[@daviniarobbins9298]

That has always bugged me. The Andromeda Galaxy, the closet/shortest point between the two galaxies starts from the edge of the Milky Way where Voyager was which is on the complete opposite side to where the Sol System(Earth) is(roughly). So the TOS episode is bollocks(probably due to the fact someone didn't do any research on where the shortest route between the two galaxies is). Unless of course Star Fleet used to have drive technologies that were lost between the series and films.

[@TheJuancho]

Not a single Tuvix joke in sight! LOL Well done!

[@pricelessppp]

Fascinating topic! You should touch on Janeways cameo on Star Trek nemesis movie with Prichard.

[@volbound1700]

Looking at the map, it still looks like the trip directly to Earth is quicker. Also to get the Gamma, she would still have had to transverse 1/4 of the Delta quadrant and was at risk of the Borg there as well.

[@ricaard]

Ryan: "So that the show could happen." Also Ryan: "All righty then!"

[@WakenerOne]

Wow. Wow wow wow wow wow wow . . . wow. Wow.

[@ricaard]

@@WakenerOne "Super easy, barely an inconvenience..."

[@jovalleau]

Oh, Pitch Meeting references are TIGHT!

[@ricaard]

@@jovalleau 😏

[@hireahitCA]

There is another factor: Communication round trip time. As Voyager approaches Starfleet communication the roundtrip time for communication drops, potentially significantly. Not all useful communication needs to be round trip either, once Starfleet knows about Voyager’s situation they can start researching and sending technical updates, star maps, and other practical information progressively.

[@MagnusSkiptonLLC]

I wish there had been a few throwaway lines on DS9 about Voyager being missing. Like, they could have started an episode with them in the Defiant returning from conducting a search of the Badlands, before that episode's plot takes over. Or maybe after conducting a briefing, someone drops a line about going to another meeting dealing with the search for Voyager. Nothing much, just a few nuggets that would help make the universe a bit more tied together.

[@henchmen999]

Here's a question: What happened to the ships that were sent at high warp to meet with voyager? How far did they get before that had to turn around and come back?

[@MrKeserian]

My understanding is that they ran into Borg and GTFO'd. One major question I've always had, however, is why the Sovereign class was never deployed against the Dominion (I mean, other than plot reasons). We know that they were around during the Dominion War, and we also know that they could have probably wiped out entire Dominion fleets (for Christ's sake, the Sovereign class could take on a Cube). Can we chalk this up to Starfleet not understanding how warfare works?

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@MrKeserian LoreReloaded went into a theory in his First Contact vid that the Enterprise and probably the other Sovereigns were kept in reserve as a back up plan.

[@Scooby-Doo_Villain]

@@darwinxavier3516 Never go 100% from the get go. You always want that extra push for when you absolutely need it. Makes sense to not flip your trump card on the first move lest your opponent adapt and counter.

[@qdllc]

henchmen999 - This happened? I don’t see why they would. When Voyager disappeared, they didn’t know where to. Once contact was made, there was no feasible way to “meet them” and Project Pathfinder was about finding a way to have regular contact with Voyager in real time. Simply put, Voyager was always on its own until it got reasonably close to Federation space.

[@CaptainM792]

qdllc Actually, Admiral Hayes mentioned in a data stream with Voyager that Starfleet had redirected two starships towards the location Voyager was in and should be in range within the next three to five years.

[@megathelos4976]

Janeway was screwed no matter which way she chose to go. The path to earth was blocked by either the Dominion, or the Borg. Given two bad choices, she decided to deal with the devil she knew. Well, knew more about anyway.

[@jasonwestwood7092]

The Delta Quadrant was far more Dangerous Species 8472, the Voth, the Borg, the Krenim far more deadly than the Dominion.😂

[@JarOfRats]

I wondered this when Voyager first aired. If we can trust the galactic maps we've seen, the direct path to the Alpha quadrant passes closer to the galactic center and a LOT more star systems. The path to the gamma quadrant passes through vast areas with far fewer systems. From the Caretaker array to the exit point of the Bajoran wormhole is really close to the outer rim of the Milky Way. Going Delta, Beta, and home to the Alpha quadrant allows Voyager much greater opportunities to refuel, resupply, and possibly find tech to get them home sooner.

[@tericklePlayer]

Brilliant analysis

[@NitpickingNerd]

another question is why didn't she head for the center of the galaxy to meet up with the Cytherians who had the ability to send the ship the rest of the way (30,000 light years) as they did with the Enterprise D which parted with them on friendly terms

[@krzosu]

well - center of the galaxy is still large place - unless you know where exactly they were located this means a large need of exploring still a huge area of space just to find them - assuming they would want to be found for the second time or if they would be willing to help. this would be a large gamble as well. (on both accounts).

[@davfree9732]

There's also the Great Barrier... Though it depends, how center is center?

[@marcosbravo9645]

Not to mention things would be very dangerous over there. Enormous amounts of radiation and celestial bodies moving very fast.

[@Tezunegari]

If I remember correctly the Ent-D only got to their planet with the help of an upgraded Barclay. It's possible that the modifications Barcley did to the Ent-D's warp drive (or whatever he used to travel to the Cytherian homeworld) are the only way and the knowledge of how to replicate them has been removed (like the upgrades Barclay received from that probe)

[@tankedwarthog6424]

I don't know about star trek but in elite dangerous the trip is about 35000 + lightyears from earth to sagittarius a* you have to figure at least that much from the caretaker array in star trek talking about 70000+ lightyears and very dangerous territory and a black hole so massive it sends stars flying around it in a matter of days also radiation and unknown gravitational anomalies. The way janeway chose to go was really the best way and the least dangerous. Also in elite dangerous it took me about 4 days of game play just to get to sagittarius a* over about a month of play time. I could only do about 25 to 30 lightyears a jump and playing about 5 to 8 hours a day to make it there

[@montymont5943]

We all know the real reason she didnt go the Gamma route. The writers knew that she would end the Dominion War fast so they sent her on a different route.

[@slevinchannel7589]

2:54: WHAT? If Dominion Space is totally off-Limits, why do Star Fleet Officers Picknick there though?!??? No, seriously, each time they go on a Picknick, whetever it's O'Brian with Family (ends in Tragedy for some reason) or Sisko and Son (Ends in Tragedy for some Reason) i think WHAT THE HECK ARE THEY EVEN DOING!?!?

[@timothysweezey1291]

Janeway wasn't going to end anything 😆

[@molybdaen11]

In an alternative universe, the voyager would have used its advanced teleporter scanners to memorize the array in its whole. If they could also manage to save some of the computer data of the array, they would had a chance, with time, to recreate the technology behind it. So instead of running across the whole delta quadrant wile encounter more and more enemies, they could find a lonley moon and rebuild the array. That would have been amazing to watch :)

[@mckenziecalhoun316]

2:19 !!!!! eheh, you ain't getting away, James, I'm onto you and your little tricks

[@decidethought8802]

you do realize that according to the map you showed the Gamma Quadrant end of the Bajoran Wormhole is FURTHER away from Voyager than the Federation is... right?

[@d3mist0clesgee12]

My favorite of all the captains, she’s gangster

[@kurtistharp2031]

Love the content! I would love to see you debate trek with triangulum some time, would be very entertaining content 😃

[@LoreReloaded]

If they ever want to.. I’d probably be game

[@AlaskanBallistics]

Yeah totally agree. Rewatching Voyager now.

[@ericfleet9602]

No, the third dimension doesn't affect the distances significantly at all. The Milky Way Galaxy is relatively flat, with a "depth" of only about 1,000 light years. At 70,000 light years away across the main plane of the galaxy, even if you had to adjust for a full 1,000 light years perpendicular to this plane, plugged into Pythagorean equation adds only 7 light years to the total trip (70,007.142 total light years if you want to be pedantic). ---------- And likely they would not be off by even this 1,000 light years, meaning the difference is even that much less significant.

[@stephenknizek2651]

Janeway went Delta so that she could hit the Romulan Empire from the back. Yee haw!

[@CaptainM792]

Stephen Knizek Space is three dimensional, you know. So they can simply go underneath or above Romulan space.

[@xheralt]

@@CaptainM792 What makes you think they aren't occupying (or at least monitoring) the whole layer?

[@bartolomeestebanmurillo4459]

I remember from later seasons of Voyager, immediately after re-establishing contact with Starfleet, she and Chakotay were talking about the Bajoran wormhole and whether a similar one may exist in the Delta quadrant. From her dialogue my guess she probably did contemplate heading to the Gamma quadrant which was closer but decided that continuing to pass through the Delta Quadrant was the safer bet.

[@1981bdt]

For my job, I was required to travel 1 hour to one job and come back to another. Total drive time 2 hours (it was paid, so no biggie). A coworker looked all smug when he "found" a route that took 2 minutes off the drive. I just looked at him like 'yeah,nobody cares.' Even factoring in the thickness of the galaxy, the trip to the Gamma Wormhole is marginally shorter at best. Throw in further unknowns, the straight shot was the better option.

[@thevlture]

Janeway should have had the crew build a cloaking device for Voyager and just quietly made their way home.

[@Rob_Thorsman]

Yes, they really should have had a cloaking device.

[@Rohirin]

Has anyone ever figured out how close Voyager came to the point where Q flung the Enterprise D?

[@MarginalSC]

Is there enough information to arrive any any kind of a conclusion?

[@yanickmonet5200]

Well, system J25 was 2 years from the nearest Starfleet Starbase !

[@wcoleman99]

@@yanickmonet5200 so 68 years roughly beyond that. So somewhere between J25 and where ever the Traveler took them in that one episode

[@MonochromeWench]

Getting to gamma would still have required significant travel through delta. going to the wormhole doesn't gain much, certainly not enough to risk travel through known hostile territory

[@dominicomegon4714]

I agree. Going through Gamma might be a shortcut, it wouldn't be by too much and there was a higher possibility of not even making it to the wormhole. Might as well take the "safer" route and best case scenario you meet a race who can cut time from your journey and bring the tech back to The Federation and if you're really lucky, discover another wormhole. Also encountering Borg will be no less dangerous than encountering Dominion.

[@aperson22222]

It definitely seems like this wormhole talk is folly.

[@crippletime]

Algorithm comment

[@AllieSocks12]

The uncertainty of the Gamma Quadrant wormhole (it was known to be stable for a long time at the point Voyager left...heck they even departed from a station that had been moved into orbit of it and had become a hub of multi-quadrant commerce) has to be weighed against the certainty of the Federation's greatest enemy, the Borg Collective existing and being based in the Delta Quadrant. It was an incredible risk to fly through the Delta Quadrant (orders of magnitude higher than territory controlled by the Dominion imo) because they could be easily overtaken at any time by any Borg vessel and assimilated. Federation ships, even Voyager, could not outrun Borg vessels and their transwarp technology (not unlike the Voth...another threat they encountered but couldn't have known about). Dominion technology was very advanced, but the one thing Federation tech exceeded it on was warp travel/engines (at least at first, by the end of the war the Federation seemed to be more or less even in general)...there is simply no way any Dominion ship could have stopped the Voyager from reaching and traversing the wormhole if they went that route. If they go the Delta Quadrant way it was only a matter of time before the encountered the Collective and some cube scans them for their fancy new tech and bio neural circuity/holographic tech and be like yummy and overtake them with as many cubes as necessary (all exceeding Voyagers top speed or coming out at various transwarp apertures nearby and completely surronding them in all dimensions of space up down left right whatever). I get that in the show that's not what happened because who wants to see Voyager assimilated, but it should have happened. I definitely think the Gamma way was the better and safer choice.

[@ritzlart]

I think I pointed this out on CE's video that it wouldn't be a stretch to assume starfleet might use the wormhole for future slipstream trips to parts of the delta quadrant assuming that technology is made practical.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Two things i always thought abouti the whole Premise of Star Trek Voyager: 1) In Stargate, this 70000 LY, Human Spaceships can do this in a Week, the best ships of the Galaxy can do it in Minutes. 2) Don't they just need to reach the Core of the Galaxy and not actually Earth?!?!? I mean, we know that there are friendly, super-advanced People there, who have in fact send people back to the Sol System before, yes???? Remember them? I remember them always!!

[@darwinxavier3516]

1. Stargate hyperdrive has been speculated to be the fastest FTL in popular scifi easily beating even Star Wars. 2. If you mean the ones that Barclay helped to find, its possible they were only interested in a one time information exchange regarding culture and didn't wish for continued contact.

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@darwinxavier3516 Yeah, in Stargate, they are just more advaned than Humans in Star Trek. Also, it's just Worlds apart in Storytelling, also regarding why the Technolog is so high! In Star Trek, everything that ever was advaned before Humans and their Level, they all just mysteriously dissapeared for no reason. That's it. Comparing that to Stargates Rich Lore is ridiculous, to be honest...

[@slevinchannel7589]

@@darwinxavier3516 Your 2 Point... well... i mean, it's possible, but extremly unlikely isnt it?

[@slevinchannel7589]

I was confused again and again that in DS9, people would picknick in the Gamma Quadrant AND EVERY SINGLE TIME something happened. O'Brian was literally just picknicking, took his eyes off his child for a second and a terrible complicated Life changing Event took place instantly... yeah...

[@QemeH]

The voyager was blown off course by *decades* - no mater how they'd choose to go about the return. Janeways decision wasn't "What's the fastest way home?" it was "What's the way most of the crew will _think_ is good for us?" Because - let's be real - there was no realistic chance that the Voyager would return within their lifespan. As a responsible officer she had to take the morale option: Plot a straight line and show progress every day.

[@MoonjumperReviews]

I agree that betting on whether or not the Bajoran wormhole was still going to be waiting for you decades later as opposed to a more direct route through the Delta Quadrant would be a pretty tall gamble I wouldn’t feel comfortable choosing. The Delta route seems more logical. On the other hand, if the choice was simply Borg space versus Dominion space, the Dominion might represent a SLIGHTLY more rational option as far as the potential for negotiations. But either would suck.

[@terakhan6656]

If they were going to destroy it anyway, make Janeway the only casualty, since we know explosives can't be trusted to blow up on time or do enough damage. She stays behind to operate the array, sends both crews home in Voyager, and self-destructs the array once they arrive. She gets the satisfaction of both getting her crew home safe AND preventing the Kazon from getting a hold of the array and its technology.

[@TheLyricalCleric]

If I were Janeway, I would have used the Caretaker Array to get back home. Yeah, the Ocampa would be losing their caretaker, but that’s the natural evolution of their species. They would either learn to adapt or die. Janeway had no reason to stay except that she thought that the array was “dangerous tech.” Okay, so leave a tricobalt bomb with a timer on it to detonate after the crew uses it to get home.

[@SKIRArudy25]

Good write up and explanation. I may only think of one slight flaw in the thought. That was in reference to Janeway knowing about the dominion prior to destroying the caretakers array. From my understanding, she seems unaware of who the dominion are during the conclusion of the doctor-centric "message in a bottle." That's the what it felt like to me anyway. But to be fair, maybe she is aware of the possibility of dominion threat since Voyager starts in the early seasons of DS9 that introduce the dominion threat.

[@PhantomGeass]

Assuming my Math is correct based on the estimated angle I got on that map, the trip to the Bajoran Wormhole would have taken 84137 lys while heading straight to home is 75000 lys. I think it's safe to assume Janeway chose the shorter path.

[@rmsgrey]

Yeah, the graphic shown in the video, at the aspect ratio it displayed, put the (unmarked) mostly horizontal distance from the Array to the Dominion end of the Bajoran wormhole as visibly longer than the (marked) mostly vertical distances between Earth and the other two locations.

[@wrath2501]

Ther is also the fact that if Voyager had not gone through the Delta Quadrant, then the Undyne would have over run the galaxy.

[@plummet3860]

We are also forgetting it wouldnt have made for a series so involved with the borg

[@QBCPerdition]

Another thing to consider, if we accept the map as presented: flying closer to the galactic center, rather than more along the rim, means you are more likely to find planets, and in the ST universe, civilizations, where you can resupply, trade for tech, etc. The rim is rather more sparsely populated with stars, and as we saw when they went through the Nekrit Expanse, sparsely populated regions are not good for the ship or the crew. It may take longer, but has greater odds of success. As for the Borg argument, they had no idea where the Borg homeworld was or how big any "Borg Empire" might be. They might be directly between you and home, or between you and the wormhole, rendering it as a consideration rather moot.

[@GraniteInTheFace]

I still find it interesting when voyager met those shapeshifters on the demon class world. Would be interesting to see how the founders would've reacted to shapeshifters that chose to maintain one form.

[@markhoffart622]

Good point. That would be an interesting meeting.

[@RegClintonBrown]

Interesting👍

[@Elliandr]

There were quite a few episodes even early on that could get them home if they left the ship behind. For example, quantum slip stream was too dangerous for voyager, but they had no trouble with shuttles. All they had to do was go to Earth, arrange a relief crew, and exchange the crew. Without the permanence I imagine many would jump at the chance to travel through another corner of the galaxy. Lacking that they should have just claimed a world and built a federation outpost.

[@johannesdolch]

They didn't know if they could actually use the Worm Hole and if they couldn't they would have basically doubled their journey. And not much shortened it if the could use the Wormhole. It's basically a huge Risk for very little reward.

[@nythepremier]

Great video, but I would like to have seen Janeway at least consider the Gamma quadrant option. It is also weird for Borg space to be adjacent to Kazon space. You would think the Borg would have more formidable enemies as neighbors.

[@NitpickingNerd]

It was mentioned the Borg simply choose not to assimilate them because they are too primitive

[@colinstorzbach6105]

3:09 with the nationalities changed this is basically the premise of the Manga Zipang, which is excellent by the way.

[@andrewhebron3244]

i would like to remind you of VOY episode, "Message in a bottle". EMH Mk II mentioned "our fight with the dominion", to which Mk I, Voyager's doctor, answered "the who?" also if my timeline is correct, Voyager launched on its mission before "The Search"

[@LoreReloaded]

That’s a continuity gaffe.. we know when voyager launched they clearly knew about it and holodeck simulations had jemhadar warships in training

[@shauntempley9757]

Voyager was lost before the Dominion were fully known. If I remember my links clearly, Voyager departed for the Badlands after the Defiant left to seek the Founders. The Dominion was not common knowledge until they entered the Alpha Quadrant. Only the high commands of the powers knew of them before hand, and the knowledge was patchy. Even the DS9 crew encounters were not informative enough. Hence the mission to seek the Founders. It is why only Quark showed up when Voyager was docked at DS9. All the rest of the main cast were on the Defiant on that mission, Garak included. It explains the Message In A Bottle issue. The Marqui were still a big issue for at least two seasons before the Dominion destroyed them, which happened immediately after they entered the Alpha Quadrant on mass. That means Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant for two years as the viewer watches before that event, and Voyager's Marqui crew were informed a few months after it happened.

[@johnhollo6881]

@@shauntempley9757 The first episode of Voyager aired right after the two part DS9 episode where they took the Defiant back to Earth, and Sisko, Dax, Obrien and Bashir went back in time to the 2020s. That is why only Quark shows up on the Voyager first episode, the rest of the crew were on their way back from Earth. As for the Doctor not knowing about the Dominion in Message in a Bottle, why would he? He was designed as a limited REPLACEMENT for the shits CMO. Before they got to the Delta Quad, he hadn't been activated since they were in space dock. Theres no reason he would have had any information about the Dominion. He was a Holographic Doctor, not a Starfleet Officer.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@johnhollo6881 That is one option, however, if that was the case, then Garak would have been on Voyager for that mission, since he is the other character that stayed back. As well as that, being an agent in the Obsidian Order, he would have known about the Cardassian operative that was on Chakotay's Maqui ship at the time called Seska. Her existence throws that option out. Because, if there was even a remote chance that she was a known undercover agent, Garak would have known. Sisko could even have arranged through Starfleet HQ that Garak was allowed to depart with Janeway easily, particularly if Garak knew which ship she was on, and messaged him. We have seen that before with him before Voyager's departure with regards to Cardassian operatives; that even when one was not expected to be present, he always knew otherwise, and he also knew precisely the purpose for that presence each time.

[@johnhollo6881]

@@shauntempley9757 Just because Garak wasn't seen on the the first episode of Voyager doesn't mean he wasn't on the station at that time. There were PLENTY of times we didn't see Garak in episodes of DS9 that we know he was on the station. And he wasn't in the Obsidian Order anymore at that time, he just knew people that were. I think you are way over stretching his contacts, and there being a cardassian operative on Chakotays ship means nothing. I'm telling you when Voyager started. It wasn't during The Search, it was right after Past Tense part 2. Even if it had been after an episode that all the DS9 crew were on the station, that doesn't mean you'd have seen them all anyways. The Enterprise visted the station in Birthright Part 1, and the only person you saw was Bashir, where was everyone else? You read way too much into things. lol

[@ViroVV]

Im in the camp of the wormhole. At the time Voyager departed DS9 (Mid DS9 season 3 - Jan 1995) the dominion was barely a known entity. There was no war at that point. The federation still in pacifist mode is likely still looking at events like the Odyssey like simple misunderstandings. More over they still hold a foothold near the wormhole in the gamma quadrant. That is the state of things Janeway would know them as at the beginning of Voyager when they plot the course home. So if anything, federation idealism would likely suggest to her that the federation would have smoothed over relations with the dominion. If not the Federation present would likely still be in proximity to the wormholes gamma quadrant exit. They also do not know at that point how big the dominion actually is. So while it may require a strafing run through possibly hostile territory with an enemy more likely to negotiate than the Borg ever will be, they would likely have reinforcements aware of their arrival through long range messaging on that side of the wormhole waiting to back them up and get them home. Whereas the delta quadrant represented the Borg threat. Which we do not know how large their space is, we know it has to be considerable portion of the quadrant. The Borg are also not going to likely negotiate with a presence they are at direct conflict with. Moreover voyager would represent a VERY lucrative target to understand federation tech. A more lucrative target for the Borg than it would ever be for the Dominion and as such they SHOULD do what they can to avoid Borg space at all cost. There is another element of this people overlook. The Romulans. Even if everything goes ideally in both directions, Even if the Wormhole is no longer viable by the time they reach it, A Federation ship would want to travel through areas on their last leg like Bajoran, and Ferengi space instead of expecting to travel through huge swaths of Romulan space. At this point in their history Romulans were DEFINITELY a major hostile power. So looking at the situation of threats going through the Delta quadrant is like planning to go through all of Russia and then through China to try and find allies in Korea or India get back to safe territory vs trying to cut through Eastern European countries like Ukraine, Czech republic, Poland, Germany and onward to make it to close allies in England/France. One direction keeps getting harder the closer you get to home while the other keeps getting easier. Yes, if worse comes to worse the gamma quadrant path is longer, but it SHOULD be shorter and infinitely safer in either scenario. The Delta quadrant is basically nothing but danger from beginning to end. But hey, we all know that logic did not play a part in this decision as it was always intended to be a vehicle to explore Borg space.

[@cragismunro8268]

The dominion were heavily referenced before the war in DS9's earlier series. Traders warned the federation they couldn't do business with them due to repercussions . So it would be in Voyagers database. A mysterious organisation that holds the region in fear. That could explain why they may also avoid that route.

[@yama123numbercauseytdemand4]

Interesting. I do not think that the z-axis argument works however, as the federation space, the entrance point of voyager into the dealta quadrant and the bajoran wormhole (Gamma quadrant side) lie in the Milkyways plane of stars, which at its thickest point outside of the central bulge is 1000 ly thick. Meaning that all three points are more or less on the same z-axis-coordinate (under the assumption that the z-axis is perpendicular to the milkyways plane). And on the map used in the video, all three points seem to be relatively euqally distant to each other, making the Delta-Beta-quadrant route superior to the Delta-Gamma-quadrant-wormhole route for the reasons mentioned in the video. One further argument, I think, would be that Voyager could reestablish direct contact with starfleet in the last part of its journey when choosing the Delta-Beta-quadrant route. Also: as the federation and thereby starfleet was not at a large scale war with anyone, when Voyager got transported, it would be a reasonable assumption, in my eyes, to believe that Federation territory or at least the space explored by the federation would expand during their flight home. Making it a realistic probability that starfleet would sooner or later launch a deepspace exploration mission in the general direction of Voyagers home flight vector, exploring that space and bringing the first time of reestablished connection with starfleet even closer.

[@sethsassy]

Something I never hear anyone mention is that the crew of Voyager is roughly 50/50 federation maquis so maybe she thought it better to avoid any possible maquis interference and or booby traps in the gamma quadrant because only the maquis themselves know exactly how far into the gamma quadrant they have infiltrated.

[@TheKyrix82]

Not very far at all. They'd have been long dead from Dominion encounters before they got anywhere near where the Alpha Quadrant powers had been in the Gamma Quadrant.

[@SheezyBites]

Logically the center of the galaxy would be in the way of any federation star mapping technology so you'd have a large cone of space you don't even know star locations in you'd have to pass through to get to the gamma quadrant. Of course if they'd built an astrometrics lab straight away they'd probably have a better chance, but ya know, it'd still probably be weaker than specifically designed star mapping stations... Would have been nice to see a discussion on screen though, but I think if the series was more serialised than episodic it probably wouldn't have been forgotten... I mean it'd make sense to have the marquis bring it up as part of the on board tensions they never properly utilised.

[@ozzyfudd9945]

I agree with you, particularly about that wormholes are notoriously unstable. Added to the hostile Dominion it was a bad bet. Of course they're going to explore. Diplomacy is how Starfleet gains allies and resources. Besides, it would have been a pretty boring trip otherwise...

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

I'll tell you why she didn't choose it... or any other logical decision like asking Q for help. She was fully determined to make everyone and everything in the Delta Quadrant suffer at her hands.

[@phlythaiguy1]

Voyager was not aware of the dominion. In fact when they found out the marquis were gone, they first mentioned the dominion from reports when the doctor transported through the hirogen network. This post isn’t researched

[@susangardiner]

Never realized Star Trek Voyager time it started in 1995 would have known about the Dominion. Thought they were stranded in the Delta quadrant before the discovery of the Dominion by the Starfleet. But did my research on what season DS9 was at when Voyager started was halfway through season 3. So Janeway would know about the Dominion. Probably got thinking that Voyager never knew about the Dominion because Chakotay said he never heard of them when he got a letter from that array informing him about the Destruction of the Maquis and his friends. And that the doctor asked who they were when he was transported onto that ship that was stolen by the Romulans.

[@IAmDox]

The scale and shape of spiral galaxies (including ours, and the Star Trek galaxy) is such that you may as well, for long distance journeys, consider the galaxy two dimensional. Some 6-10 thousand light years thick, hundreds of thousands of light years across. For an analogy, the Z-axis position in the galaxy compared to a journey of ~60-70 thousand light years is about equivalent to crossing the street after a 100km car ride, if that.

[@RicAdbur]

Did the Voyager crew know about The Dominion before they got stranded? I could've sworn there was an episode shortly after they made contact with Starfleet where the Dominion was mentioned to them and one or more of them said "the who?"

[@TheKyrix82]

The Dominion was hinted at very early in DS9. There weren't a lot of details, but what WAS known is they were a massive, powerful and possibly xenophobic empire

[@HepCatJack]

One could argue that when Picard encountered the Borg, the Federation already knew about them since Zefram Cochrane's time and learned more in Archer's time.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

1:45: The Milky Way is 'only' 1000-4500 lyrs thick (give or take). Unless the points are far off-disk (and they don't seem to be), the z-axis part doesn't significantly impact the calculations.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Let's be honest, she often made the right Decision. Including her very First One, and even the very second one, in that Quadrant of the Galaxy.

[@jasonfischer8946]

One of the small things that always annoyed me about Star Trek was the mapping. It almost always shows the boundaries in 2D. That implies that any given power owns all of the territory across the thickness of the galactic disk. That's one heck of a volume. If your territory's boundary in 2D is only one square light year, then in 3D that's thousands of cubic light years.

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

The 2D map display also tends to allow for a lot of inconsistencies that would otherwise easily be explained by the various star nations developing also in the third dimension. I like to imagine the various powers' territories resemble tentacles coming out of a combat core more than the flat figures we are used to seeing on maps of Earth. These tentacles intertwine, cut eachother off and might even have large swathes of unclaimed space between them.