Why Jay Leno Was Fired w/ Jimmy Kimmel

[@amitnagpal1985]

“Oh so he did stay 5 years?” - WTF HOW STONED ARE YOU BILL? 😢

[@zurzakne-etra7069]

he hardly knows about the recession during covid... what do you expect?

[@KealeyMissMultiFairy]

Bill Maher is such a scumbag. Always making up things about liberals that aren't true. He's like Judge Judy. Not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. Did I mention he's a scumbag? I did? Good. It can't be said enough.

[@TonyB2279]

He seems to be having a hard time keeping up with the conversation at points.

[@johnsjohnson448]

For FIVE years, Bill's ABC show competed against Jay's second half hour. Bill had skin in the game but must have forgotten this in his "haze." LOL

[@one-man-band]

I love that bill talks out of his butt with such authority, only to find out he knew nothing at all. Sums up my entire opinion on him as a person, its just nice and concide in this one clip.

[@Neonlike0]

Bill Maher is so ignorant it is disgusting.

[@ryanshannon6963]

Bill has had *way too long* of *Jeer and Cheer cued crowds* to know how to ask questions when ignorant or unsure rather than make didactic statements when the facts are laughably contrary.

[@cloverharvest1145]

That's basically all he does , and he does it with confidence and when "debating" he's main strategy is ridiculing the other party rather than reply and discuss. Shows you how long confidence can take you even if you're full of hot air in this age

[@tykeboy16]

@@cloverharvest1145 yeah or he'll just say some basic facts very smugly and refuse to accept that there is nuance to the subject. "Well who cares about that because of this" *smug face intensifies*

[@heidinova6883]

Well, I generally like Bill Maher, so let's hope he was learning.

[@ronthorn3]

This is the most real I’ve EVER seen Kimmel, man I think I like this version of him 1000% more than the tv version.

[@goldenhourkodak]

You have to put on an act on those shows. Even Jimmy Fallon is off the show.

[@briankennedy7100]

he is stoned

[@rock-n-rollfoodie]

Jimmy’s voice sounds deeper here.

[@felphero]

If he talked like this on his show he'd be fired in a week

[@jackb8598]

I personally really like Jimmy Kimmel his show has for sure gotten too mainstream but to me he always seemed the most genuine and actually funny compared to all these other late night robots.

[@adamkane4217]

Really glad Bill was so prepared for this conversation.

[@ricarleite]

He was busy smoking pot

[@kangaroofoot]

That’s what prepared looks like? I’d hate to see unprepared.

[@jstnsmutek]

Not

[@spenser9908]

Man, you guys are still bitter about Leno huh? 😂

[@ranndino]

@@kangaroofootEver heard of sarcasm?

[@get2choppa]

older conan and craig ferguson are miles ahead of todays late night

[@ThomB1031]

They're not even talking about current events and they're still more entertaining.

[@TIOLIOfficial]

I have no idea why NO ONE ever mentions Craig when talking about these shows. This is the first comment I've seen in YEARS that wasn't mine mentioning Ferguson.

[@Wheelerdealer2]

Yes Jimmy fallon and Seth what ever his name is suck big time

[@loveshack8172]

@@TIOLIOfficial I fucking love craig ferguson. Unfortunately I only discovered him a couple of years ago on youtube and never got to experience watching him every night on tv. I love Conan's stuff but I can't really sit through interviews with celebrities. Ferguson is the only guy I can watch interview celebrities he's fucking great.

[@fredericf832]

Those 2 are great true but kimmel is great too he doesn't shy away to go after stupid politician

[@mcm2366]

Conan’s interview with Letterman after all the drama settles is great. Conan didn’t deserve how things played out. I blame Conan for my Insomnia since the 90’s, lol.

[@gallery7596]

None of them deserved it, but Conan set that debacle in motion when he agreed to *NBC's* dumb 5 year plan.

[@kuryanthomas1438]

what i always found interesting in all this is that jimmy is team conan/letterman while his good man show buddy adam corollo is team jay leno and hates conan's guts.

[@kuryanthomas1438]

@@gallery7596 carolla spilled everything about it to bill simmons on a bs podcast when bill was still with espn. Apparently one time conan had carolla on the late show on nbc and supposed adam though that o'brien came off as rude and insincere to him. So I guess he held a grudge. And kimmel has stated with jay, carolla and jay like to work on antique cars together and exchange them, so they have that common hobby which drew them closer. Hence, carolla is team leno while you see here jimmy is team conan.

[@josephkelley8641]

ima just glad they all got paid.

[@AlessandroAltosoleChannel]

"Whatever you do, dont blame conan"

[@sTEALtooth]

You gotta love Bill speaking about the situation with total confidence...and then being repeatedly surprised about key details 🤨 He keeps accusing Jimmy of hating Jay, but fails to recognize his point of view is skewed by his fondness of Jay.

[@Mark_B585]

No bill is a weasel just like Leno was a weasel

[@gallery7596]

But Kimmel's point of view is, I suspect, affected by his reverence for Dave Letterman, and hanging out so much with a shock-jock/Leno hater like Stern.

[@VoodooV1]

Bill has become such a whiny "kids get off my lawn" boomer. I can't watch him anymore. he just whines about the same shit every episode. He's insufferable.

[@jameshershberger8085]

@@gallery7596 don’t you think having a genuine friendship with Stern and an admiration/friendship with Letterman makes it so that what happened with Leno as he describes here convinced him solidly that Jay has poor character? He said Jay called him all the time, they spoke about stuff other than talk shows, he thought they were becoming friends and then when Jay’s ABC show was off the table the friendship is over. It seems to me Kimmel thinks to himself, “oh so what all my friends say about Leno is true.”

[@safebans1369]

@@jameshershberger8085 It doesnt matter about their perspective, the facts show Leno to be a dishonest and selfish man

[@davecongalton2858]

A good rule of thumb reinforced here: It's probably not a good idea to interview someone when you're stoned.

[@wilfreddale764]

The one of this podcast is literally bill talking shit. Get with the program

[@thisuniquechica]

Or someone who knows more about the topic than you 😅

[@soultest]

Without that Bill wouldn´t do this. XD

[@Malt454]

It never hurt Rogan - you just have to reach for the "hey, I'm stoned, so what do I know" ripcord quicker; it's an acquired skill.

[@TyuHeyheyhey]

@@wilfreddale764lol. Right on.

[@poorlittlesheep4098]

The most fascinating part of this video to me is "Why does it sound like it's Bill Maher's first time hearing this story??" Does he sincerely not know the Conan/Leno drama?

[@gallery7596]

He does these podcasts stoned. Glad HBO doesn't let him do that when he's hosting "Real Time."

[@HenryNooney]

Bill either doesn't give a shit or his dying brain reacted to the weed and booze and he forgot lol.

[@arturboy777]

He's high af

[@actthree7810]

because he's always ready to offer a smug opinion about matters he's only scratched the surface of

[@mannypadrino812]

@@gallery7596 Yeah it's tough to watch

[@marshallross3373]

Another problem for Conan's Tonight Show: if your lead-in is another late night talk show, then your late night talk show playing immediately afterwards at night becomes redundant. Putting Jay before Conan obviously was going to poison Conan's chances for success. I mean, the whole deal was shady.

[@abcdefg2120]

Are there any network late night talk shows that AREN’T airing immediately before or after another talk show? For better or for worse, that seems to be the case for every single one. Some seem to pull fairly good viewership in the second slot as well; Seth Meyers comes to mind. Many of the current lead-ins were promoted from the second slot as well.

[@gallery7596]

Jay's "Tonight Show" was a strong lead-in for "Late Night With Conan O'Brien," and Jay even appeared on Conan's show. During Conan's first rocky season hosting "Late Night" the network was prepared to fire him, but Jay counseled them to stick with him and promised to end every telecast with "stay up for Conan" - which he did. Conan absolutely had reason to be grateful to Jay for the support he had received all those years at *NBC.*

[@marshallross3373]

@@abcdefg2120 Hmm...I think the Jay show really cut into Conan's Tonight Show--they were kind of redundant, really.

[@marshallross3373]

@@gallery7596 Strange, that's not how most people see it, including Conan. He had the opportunity to leave NBC 5 years before taking on the Tonight Show, but they made a deal with him which I don't believe included keeping Leno in the line up.

[@gallery7596]

@@marshallross3373 I wouldn't expect Conan to see it Jay's way, but he can't deny the fact that Jay's success at 11:35 provided "Late Night" with a strong lead-in for many years, and that Jay always encouraged his audience to watch Conan. RE: "He had the opportunity to leave NBC 5 years before taking on the Tonight Show, but they made a deal with him which I don't believe included keeping Leno in the line up." Correct, and it wounded Jay deeply that Conan made this deal without at least consulting him first (so he wouldn't be shocked by the news that *NBC* was dropping him in favour of this guy he had helped out along the way).

[@perniculous]

Gee, Bill, imagine that you might not have the whole story for maybe a millisecond.

[@safebans1369]

A totally insufferable man is Maher

[@milken91]

I really don't like him, I just watch this for the guests. Bill is someone I otherwise actively stay away from.

[@SoleEpiphany]

Too egotistical for that 🤣

[@craigjgomez]

Look, this story has been spun so many different ways that only Jay and Conan know what happened and both of them have survived and came out of the battle with a bundle of money and isn't that all that really matters. Frankly, the current host of The Tonight Show is rated last of the three, Colbert, Kimmel then Fallon so, it's turned out that the NBC Executives still can't figure out who to put on a late night show that hasn't dominated since Carson left in 1992.

[@shazzasees]

​@@safebans1369 And that cigarette is pretty gross. Just sayin'😬

[@DavidZetino]

"Nobody is blaming Conan" 🤣

[@1tigerbee]

Bill so stoned he can't follow what Jimmy is telling him.

[@michaeleaster1815]

100%

[@dickbiggerjr3613]

There's also the story of Jay hiding in closets during executive meetings way back when him and David letterman had there issues going. He's always been a sneaky weasel.

[@gallery7596]

@@dickbiggerjr3613 Jay turned down a major offer from *CBS* in exchange for "The Tonight Show," and then *NBC* offered the show to Dave when he threatened to leave. If Jay wanted to know what they were deciding about the next 20 years of his life then I don't see any reason to feel sorry for sneaky execs playing games with both guys' careers.

[@tylercampbell6272]

100%. It's funny seeing so many on here have no clue when someone is just plain ol' faded.

[@lizherbst7393]

Bill is sooo annoying when he’s not stoned. This is painful!!😵‍💫

[@cjbaker9703]

I love how this show is supposed to be 2 chill guys smoking pot, but it ends up just Bill getting stoned by himself lol

[@josephkelley8641]

Bill very good at letting down Bill's guard. Trusts Jimmy and Jay.

[@ronniechilds2002]

Oh, I think Jimmy is high as a kite.

[@bernlin2000]

If this is how Bill "chills" IRL I would expect him to get stoned alone quite a bit 🤣 who the hell wants to argue endlessly while stoned?

[@Doopersteen]

And he talks the entire episode lol cuts the guest off cause he’s stoned as hell

[@1225KPH]

Bill misses all those decades getting gonorrhea at the Playboy Mansion.

[@KennM12]

"oh he did stay 5 years?" how is bill talking so much about something he clearly knows nothing about

[@mr.green2341]

Cuz he doesn’t want to believe that Jay would do something shady or underhanded, apparently.

[@hotrodandrube9119]

Because that's his m.o.

[@zeronyne]

I love when Bill just goes off into a strawman argument and the uses it as fact.

[@hutch1197]

Not just strawman, but fully conclusive without knowing a single fact about the situation. The whole second half of the conversation was Bill saying "Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, that happened? Oh really?"

[@johnsjohnson448]

@@hutch1197 Perhaps Bill was playing it coy, or was so caught up in launching his HBO show at the time that he lost touch with what transpired in his old time slot on ABC.

[@joelrasdall7662]

Bill's one of those people I just ignore as much as possible because he so often just grabs an opinion and fires it out there. I have no idea why he's a thing. He's acting like he didn't know extremely basic facts about this sequence of events, like that Conan took the NBC gig instead of going to ABC. I only clicked on this for Kimmel's reaction; I never click on anything with Bill otherwise.

[@ranndino]

@@joelrasdall7662Blah blah blah. Bill's HBO show is great. The last sane voice with a platform.

[@TighelanderII]

The look on Maher's face when someone tells him that he doesn't know everything is priceless. Kimmel's revelation here is like Kristal Ball reminding him that COVID caused the banks to crash briefly.

[@chriskay1449]

LOOL what? Kimmel had his bias laid out for all to see. Bill asked him legit questions and he dodged them to make baseless claims. Billl absolutely exposed him for the clown he is.

[@briano9397]

First of all Krystal Ball* and literally no recession happened. The market dipped but the Saudis saved us that's why gas was so cheap. Krystal was wrong and now subsequently you are as well

[@tn3294]

@@briano9397 yee Krystal is dim and opportunistic

[@willlicks8584]

@@briano9397 holy shit why are people on the internet so stupid.

[@zurzakne-etra7069]

@@briano9397 you must live in a hell of a bubble to think a recession didn't happen

[@FairsleyDifference]

The other issue that no one talks about is that in those intervening 5 years, Conan gradually altered the format of his show in order to retain as many Leno viewers as possible once he took over. Less dark/absurd sketches and less playing with the format, more packaged joke delivery systems (Celebrity Survey, etc). When Leno stayed on the air, that all became for nothing; it just made the Tonight Show less appealing to people who loved his 90s 12:30 show.

[@gallery7596]

RE: "Conan gradually altered the format of his show in order to retain as many Leno viewers as possible once he took over." It didn't seem to work for him at 12:35am either because while Jay's "Tonight Show" was still #1, "Late Night with Conan O'Brien" was losing viewers to Craig Ferguson.

[@thethomasj1795]

@@gallery7596 Ferguson blew Conan's doors off. That show was great!

[@SwimInMystery]

None of that is true. Conan went out of his way to let every know he wasn't going to change. Any "altered format" was the natural evolution of the show.

[@forGODtv]

Finally a comment that makes sense, actually Conan was never good on this type of shows ,scripted shows, Conan is funny when he is unleashed, when he has no censorship, but in this woke erra you dont make BIG MONEY from speaking freely. Conan tanked on TBS... i mean how can you lose your show on TBS ! Beacause he never made great ratings.

[@keithgreenan7300]

@@forGODtv Conan was great at doing remotes

[@youtubecensorsspeech6672]

its interesting hearing jimmy speak causally and honestly rather than joking mixed with seriousness which his show has.

[@woodycoat]

Kimmel is awful

[@josephpeeler5434]

Kimmel's show has become establishment propaganda. It isn't comedy. Same for Colbert.

[@slipjones2]

@@josephpeeler5434 so was Carson. You insult a politician and you are now their devoted blind followers enemy. 4000 court judgements? Are you kidding me. Your candidates a crook, people will make fun. Sorry that’s why dictators don’t allow free TV. And that’s why you don’t like the shows. But hey maybe your dictator can end the US next election.

[@josephpeeler5434]

@@slipjones2 It looks like the late night shows parrot the establishment line. They give the Democrats a pass. They are propagandists for one party. That isn't comedy.

[@chriskay1449]

LOl Honestly? He literally doged two legit questions to make a baseless claim about Jay. Kimmel got completely exposed for the weasel he is here.

[@AlSimmons-km6ge]

Bill not understanding dignity, honor, professionalism, and respect is very on character for him. I wouldn’t expect anything less of him.

[@johnb820]

He is so transparent. He wants this slot so bad.

[@XPRT10R]

Or anything more

[@leogadget]

Couldn't agree more, he doesn't even understand friendship.

[@BrandonHeat243]

I don't really buy this thinking. Conan made the deal with NBC not with Jay. Jay didn't want to leave. Jay owed him NOTHING. If my coworker tries to get me fired and I can work out a way to keep my job I'm not gonna feel bad about it. Why should I? How's that honorable? How's that professional? How's that respectful?

[@jjeteuati264]

what he said was the stupidest thing I've ever heard, "Oh WhY sHOuLd I lOoK OuT fOR CoNAn'S CarEEr", it's not about that, its about leaving when you are told to, you don't have any right to the tonight show even if you are number 1

[@christianfinkbeiner684]

This show would be better if Maher wasn't high. He asks questions that have been answered repeatedly.

[@crd6473]

…and seems totally incapable of integrating new information that challenges his superficial though self assured analysis. Several times kimmel explains where Maher has it wrong just based on lack of understanding of the facts…each time Maher is like “wait what?…er…but anyway back to my tired sound bite. …”

[@DoctorSportello]

Right! So annoying

[@HealthHorror]

He's trying to be Joe Rogan 😛

[@TheHolyLorf]

Yeah he’s a zombie here.. some people can stay on point when stoned, but it doesn’t seem like he’s one of those people.

[@lipby]

I don't think he's going for full-on professionalism here. He has one high pressure job and just wants to do something looser.

[@policyguy3103]

You can really tell the difference between Maher and Jimmy's characters when Maher shows himself to be totally incapable of understanding Jimmy's perspective that maybe a decent person would opt not to give the shaft to their colleague for the sake of getting a couple more years on the air. Giving weight to someone else's interests in that way just seems like a totally foreign concept to Maher, whereas it seems like second nature to Jimmy.

[@GGoAwayy]

It is kind of weird. Maher is showing an attitude here that is generally used by the right to justify a lot of things that Maher himself is against. Maher went all Ayn Rand for a moment and decided that people should always act selfishly without considering the impact on others. Maher brain fart maybe?

[@wintercomesearly]

Yep. Something called character. Jimmy's got it in spades. He'd make a great friend. I wonder how many real friends Bill has.

[@tien90802]

"maybe a decent person would opt not to give the shaft to their colleague for the sake of getting a couple more years on the air." Didn't Conan give Leno the shaft first by trying to force him out of the Tonight Show?

[@samuelthomson9765]

Self righteous is more like it lol

[@edsnotgod]

we need to seize Mahers bank accounts and check to see if he isn't giving money to Trump or the Russians

[@dhackdaddymac]

Conan was so great on the late show. He got everyone on his staff paid and you could tell he is a kind hearted guy who puts others first

[@mithrandir491]

His buddies wanted him to take the abc slot so he felt guilty keeping them on, that's one of the reasons why he made sure they got paid.

[@BenJalil]

@@dejesusb8598 you're backing Robbie Rotten?

[@trajancanada]

Leno took a 50% pay cut so that none of his staff would have to be laid off. So both were very loyal to their crew.

[@baron17]

Jay leno is the same.

[@paradise_valley]

For sure, everyone except his associate producer Jordan Schlansky.

[@johnjohn-ne8fw]

For a guy who appears to have all the answers Bill seems genuinely surprised at many things here 😂

[@johnsjohnson448]

It is confusing and sort of off putting considering how Jimmy replaced Bill after he was fired. Bill had skin in the game because his show competed directly against Jay's second half hour.

[@devinmichaelroberts9954]

bahahaha, dude kimmels voice drops a whole octave when he's ripped

[@roberts1572]

Lmfao

[@evolutionstationmusic2559]

He got Covid twice , might be that

[@crystinamarie1]

😂 I was thinking that too.

[@endthehate]

weed will do that to many vocal chords

[@Ezekial2517]

Jesus Christ you’re right. I thought it was Buffalo Bill at first haha

[@jewelgirl23]

I agree with Jimmy about it being diabolical. Jay promised on air to give the show to Conan and announced it publicly many times. I've watched his interviews about it and I listened to him very closely and ultimately he didn't want to give up his show, and he believed that he was the only one who could do it. He did the same thing to Letterman when it was implicitly understood that Dave was to get the show after Johnny Carson retired- it's literally on record that Jay hid in a closet to spy on the network to figure out how to get the Tonight Show- that's how badly he wanted it! He lied to the public and to Conan under a bad faith promise and then turned around and quietly sabotaged him while trying to play the nice guy; Mr. "I don't want any drama" and yet drama somehow keeps following him. He knew exactly what he was doing to Conan. Conan uprooted his entire staff and his family from NY to move to LA to do the Tonight show after Jay's bad faith promise to the WORLD that Conan would get his show. Jay never had any intention of giving up his show, and that's why Jimmy is absolutely spot on here- diabolical is the word!

[@gallery7596]

RE: "Jay promised on air to give the show to Conan and announced it publicly many times." If you watch all of Jay's interviews on the topic, you will hear him state that *NBC* wanted him to publicly give his approval to the decision that Conan would get the show. Jay complaining about it would not have changed *NBC's* mind. Jay still would have had to go, and complaining would only have brought criticism of Conan for the way he went about getting Jay's job. RE: "[Jay] did the same thing to Letterman when it was implicitly understood that Dave was to get the show after Johnny Carson retired-" According to "The Late Shift," *NBC* was telling both Dave and Jay that they had the inside track on inheriting "The Tonight Show" when Carson retired. That was their way of holding onto BOTH guys. You can't blame Jay for *NBC* manipulating the two of them like that. RE: "it's literally on record that Jay hid in a closet to spy on the network..." The president of programming thought that Jay might have had their offices bugged. And yet...they still chose Jay. That should tell you something about who they preferred for the show. RE: "He lied to the public and to Conan under a bad faith promise." Jay didn't have the power to promise his job to anybody. *NBC* makes those decisions. Not outgoing hosts. RE: "...and then turned around and quietly sabotaged him..." *NBC* changed their minds when by 2009 Conan was losing ground at 12:35am to Craig Ferguson while Jay at 11:35pm was still #1. That's when they talked Jay into staying. RE: "Mr. "I don't want any drama" and yet drama somehow keeps following him." Consider the corporation he worked for. That's just how *NBC* treated their on-air talent. RE: "Conan uprooted his entire staff and his family from NY to move to LA to do the Tonight show" Yes, and after all that upheaval that resulted from his quest to host "The Tonight Show," Conan chose to resign and put all those people out of work. If we're going to be fair, then we have to look at any controversy from ALL sides. Not just the side we like best.

[@johnsjohnson448]

Jay was a shark. He understood the business and did everything to protect his "turf."

[@johnsjohnson448]

Jay was "forced" to say this. Contractually speaking.

[@tylerwinkle323]

leno was a scumbag, stop defending him everybody in the industry knew this, and knew not to trust him. conan was just naive

[@gallery7596]

@@tylerwinkle323 Yes, Conan was naive about how *NBC* treats it's on-air talent. If he'd consulted Leno before greenlighting the network's weird 5 year plan, Jay could've reminded Conan that he, too signed a long term agreement for "the Tonight Show" in exchange for turning down *CBS.* But when Jay got what they promised him, *NBC* turned around and offered the show to Dave when he threatened to go to *CBS.* That's just the way *NBC* rolls, and Conan was pretty daft thinking they wouldn't do the same thing to him that they did to Jay and Dave. So, Conan has to take some responsibility for what happened.

[@bryanmdwyer]

Jay Leno doomed himself when he announced, on his show, that he would be passing the Tonight Show to Conan 4 years later. If he never had any intention of leaving, Jay shouldn't have made the announcement at all. I think that's the root of the issue. How good is Jay Leno's word? It's not about just helping advance Conans career at all.

[@gallery7596]

RE: "If he never had any intention of leaving, Jay shouldn't have made the announcement at all." In 2004 Conan signed a deal with *NBC* that would be deciding Jay's retirement date for him. Jay had no power to overturn this decision, but *NBC* appealed to him not to publicly complain about it (Letterman style) so as to avoid embarrassment for all concerned- including Conan. Jay was gonna have to go no matter what, so he graciously chose to conceal his hurt and wished Conan well. How could he know in 5 years time *NBC* would start begging him to stay? Being a good sport did bite Jay in the butt. And this when Conan could've respectfully consulted Jay (so the news of his deal wouldn't have been such a shock), and maybe he even would've gotten Jay's blessing. But instead, Conan just let the network inform Jay (who had helped Conan during his late night career) that he would be out at the end of his contract. And still people insist Jay's the bad guy. That always amazes me.

[@scottmattern482]

Its a business, not personal. Jay did what he was hired to do. Blame NBC, if you fee like there is a villan - even then it is a corporation trying to make money.

[@gallery7596]

Yes, as Oprah Winfrey said at the time "I feel like those who are angry at Jay don't understand how television works."

[@lourencooliva7429]

It was 5 years, not 4, and he was forced to. And my sensibilities are much more team Coco.

[@trapez77]

He’s allowed to change his mind. It’s not like him and Conan were close friends

[@PopcornedPalace]

This is why doing interviews stoned isn’t always for the best

[@jujubean8870]

Two bad business decisions were made. 1. Conan should have left for ABC and took that 11:30 slot and let go of "The Tonight Show" dream. And 2. Jay should have went to ABC and took that 11:30 slot and never have re-took the "The Tonight Show." They were both *clinging* onto "The Tonight Show" which led to the demise of both Jay and Conan. Jay wasn't "diabolical." NBC was. NBC strung along Conan for years and fired Jay twice, effectively destroying both talents so that even if they moved to another network, they would no longer be a threat in ratings to "The Tonight Show."

[@gallery7596]

RE: "Conan should have left for ABC and took that 11:30 slot and let go of "The Tonight Show" dream." Yes, or taken the offer from *FOX* where they wanted to pay him way more than *NBC* was offering to wait all those years for "The Tonight Show." RE: "Jay should have went to ABC and took that 11:30 slot..." Yes. Although Conan would likely have been crushed between the competition of both Dave and Jay...yes, Jay would've been better off going to *ABC* to be, ironically, Jimmy Kimmel's lead-in. RE: "NBC strung along Conan for years and fired Jay twice, effectively destroying both talents..." Yes, and they strung Dave along, too by telling him he had the inside track on becoming Carson's successor- not realizing they were telling Jay the same thing. The worst decision Jay Leno ever made was turning down the *CBS* offer for *NBC"s* guarantee he would get Johnny's seat. Dave made the best decision passing on *NBC's* last ditch "Tonight Show" offer and going to *CBS.*

[@mr.green2341]

Yeah, I guess I can see your points here and maybe not blame Jay so much as NBC.

[@kathleenrasing6818]

Looking back, yeah sure they should/could have, but... thank God they didn't right? Conan eventually moving to TBS was the best thing ever - lots of great remotes were made that wouldn't otherwise be "allowed" at the Tonight Show and his travel series & now his top rated podcast...he even said that it was the best thing that happened to his career. He didn't got his dream but at least really tried. It didn't worked out but there wasn't any regret on his part. I'm not sure with Jay tho 😅

[@tothorsi]

@@kathleenrasing6818 Agree. Conan has been thriving.

[@jasonguest5820]

Bill Maher is the poster boy of "what would a heel say?"

[@williamcoate9491]

Maher is really missing the beat to this whole story. It isn't about Leno looking out for Conan but he should have asked to be let out of his contract and find another channel to compete on. It was that simple. Leno knew that all he had to do was make the situation as untenable for Conan as possible and NBC would run back to him. My favorite bit was when Letterman responded by saying "Nobody is blaming Conan!" Check that video out. It still makes me laugh to this day because the simple matter was Leno could not let go and he had to f*ck it up for Conan.

[@gallery7596]

RE: "It isn't about Leno looking out for Conan but he should have asked to be let out of his contract and find another channel to compete on." But why didn't Conan do that in 2004 when his contract was coming up for renewal? He (like Jay) could've gone to *ABC,* or he could've gone to *FOX* where they were offering him way more money than *NBC* was. But, instead, he chose to take the *NBC* offer that was deciding Jay's retirement date for him, and he was going to have to wait 5 years to get "The Tonight Show." If Conan had accepted one of those other major offers, he would've had his earlier start time, nobody would've had to lose their job to accommodate him, and the entire debacle would've been averted.

[@williamcoate9491]

@@gallery7596 Conan didn't leave because Leno publicly supported this agreement. He told Conan he accepted this agreement and even announced it on his show. Conan and Leno had options. The problem was that NBC promised too much. They didn't want to lose either. But if Leno felt that he was being screwed he had more leverage than Conan. In the end he made the situation worse with every step. Not leaving. BAD. 10 PM slot BAD. Bad ratings for both shows. Leno played the long game and won. He got what he wanted and basically shafted Conan.

[@gallery7596]

@@williamcoate9491 RE: "[Jay] told Conan he accepted this agreement and even announced it on his show." Conan's deal was made *before* Jay knew a thing about it. Jeff Zucker simply told Jay that he would be let go at the end of his contract. Also, Zucker asked Jay not to make a Letterman-style stink about it, so Jay graciously accepted what he could not change. What would've been the point (at the time) of telling the world that this was breaking his heart? He still would've had to go, and now Conan would've looked to Jay's audience like a pushy interloper. Jay behaved like a gentleman, and Conan's maneuver to obtain that show was, at best, questionable. Had he sought Jay's blessing before signing on the dotted line, it might've made a huge difference in avoiding all the misunderstandings and rancour that followed. But, he didn't. RE: "Conan and Leno had options. The problem was that NBC promised too much." Yes, that's true. They wanted to keep two guys who basically wanted the same thing. It didn't work when it was Jay and Letterman, but for some reason Conan thought it could work this time. *NBC* has a habit of mistreating it's on-air talent. Conan shouldn't have assumed he would be treated any better. But, he did, and we saw what happened. He should've gone to *ABC* or *FOX* when he had the chance.

[@anthonybiamonte472]

@@gallery7596 NBC is the real bad guy in this. They played Leno and Conan. Interestingly enough, NBC paid Conan $45 million to go away. What a mess!

[@gallery7596]

@@anthonybiamonte472 Yes, *NBC* president of programming Jeff Zucker was the architect of "The Tonight Show" debacle.

[@eraldway]

This goes deeper than that. I was working for a local station back then. Conan Tonight show ratings were off the chart all summer until Jay Leno started the 10 o'clock. Issue was that now majority of people watched Jay Leno at 10 and shut their TVs off. The ratings for the 11 o'clock news were nearly cut in half for us.

[@gallery7596]

Which station? Because nationally, Conan's "Tonight Show" started falling behind Letterman's show by the end of their first week in competition.

[@gallery7596]

@karinalumen9722 RE: "Rating drop with jay." I would suggest reading Bill Carter's excellent book "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane." Conan was failing before Jay's 10pm show premiered. RE: "[Jay] knew a lot about ratings.” Nobody in show business knows which shows will succeed, and which ones will flop. It's ALL a gamble. RE: "...he made it not work by taking the news afterwards to have them be mad enough to take Conan off the air. *NBC* created the 10pm show. Not Jay. And intentionally hosting a big flop could've ended Jay's chance of ever hosting another network show. It just makes no sense. Jay and Conan both made mistakes, but *NBC* thinking they could hold onto both guys is where the fault lies.

[@scotthockenberry3085]

No they were not. The show sucked when he was on it.

[@bigoltits1880]

@karinalumen9722 What if I told you that this person you're engaging with (@Gallery) is actually a notorious tr011? Just search "Leno vs Conan" and click the first 5 videos that come up on KZbin. I will bet my salary that you'll find @Gallery's anti-Conan comments under ALL of those videos. This person has no life to live, so they spend all their time hating on conan online. I was able to trace @Gallery's comment history back to 9 years. He has been doing this for 9 years. THe same old talking points that defend Leno and demonize conan, the same old lies. Relentless. I've noticed this sick person's comments on like 12 videos so far.

[@mckernan603]

@@scotthockenberry3085 yes Leno’s show sucked

[@yasumotonoboru]

After this, I have to go back and watch Dave responding to Jay’s “Don’t blame Conan”.

[@gallery7596]

We could blame Conan. His decisions lead to a lot of the havoc that occurred during that time.

[@willcartoons]

I am not blaming Conan, or Lonnie Donnegan!

[@outsidr54]

I'll never forget Conan's Tonight Show set. Classiest set in late night. When your lead-in is the old show, how do you expect the new show to get any traction, like anything new, the first 2 years is figuring it out. Look at Colbert's Late Show, year 1-2 were very different from year 3+, he wasn't political because he was trying to distance himself from his old Report show. Now, he's mostly political. Even when they first announced Conan was getting the TS 5 years early, even as a teenager I said, that's a weird guarantee.

[@seanklingensmith7713]

Leno dropped hints about a possible move to ABC. I used to watch him all the time. I think around '08 I remember him mentioning it in his monologue. One day a 5 pointer hit the LA area and that night Leno joked he went over to the ABC studios to seek shelter. It was a subtle hint to address the speculation at the time.

[@gallery7596]

Yes, it's confirmed in "The War For Late Night" that Jay was in talks with *ABC* (and Jimmy) to come over there to host a new 11:35pm show. It was only when *NBC* offered him the prime time spot (and 2 years guaranteed employment for his staff) that Jay decided to turn down the *ABC* offer.

[@Anasyub]

Jimmy taking conans side here makes me respect him more

[@clurkroberts2650]

Jimmy has always supported Conan and even dissed Leno to his face.

[@bb.and.b]

This is painful to watch. It’s embarrassing how little Maher understands such a major story that played out in his own industry. Then he can’t or won’t get it when it’s explained to him.

[@TonyVega123]

Maher does get it. It's Jimmy who doesn't get it. Leno had zero pull over there. They axed him when he was number 1!!! Imagine if that happened to you

[@bugeye8749]

Exactly op 👌👏👏

[@ryanhenning8939]

Did you not tell.that bill was feeling a bit buzzed

[@gallery7596]

He's not too with it here, but back when this debacle was raging Bill presented an excellent defense of Jay's position one night on Larry King's show. I still remember the line *"why is it Jay Leno's job to be concerned with Conan's dream? When Leonardo DiCaprio gets a script does he go 'I'd really like to do this, but Jake Gyllenhaal had his heart set on it. Would I be ruining his dream?"* With regard to Conan he said *"you wanna be on top of the mountain? There's gonna be some others who want to be there, too."*

[@codygoodman8794]

@@TonyVega123 how can you be number 1 and have no pull? Sounds like he was either too lazy to fight it or thought it was a good idea. He signed the agreement and then never left.

[@ErisRising]

What I love is that first they were thinking of pushing Jimmy back for Conan, then planned on doing so for Jay, and after all the dust had settled, Jimmy ended up getting the 11:30 slot and doing respectable numbers with it. I also love that as someone who was involved in the whole fiasco in a behind-the-scenes capacity, he has very strong reasons for backing Conan in all of this.

[@gallery7596]

Fallon stated he felt Conan and Jay were both mistreated.

[@ErisRising]

@@gallery7596 Fallon was in a trickier position than Kimmel

[@gallery7596]

@@ErisRising I thought you were referring to Fallon since Kimmel's position wasn't affected by what was happening at *NBC.*

[@ErisRising]

@@gallery7596 Sorry, I realized after posting that using only the first name could be confusing, but I was caught up in other things, and forgot to go back and edit. To be clear, I was talking about Kimmel almost being pushed back for Conan when Conan was thinking of leaving if he didn't get the tonight show, then almost being pushed back for Leno when Leno left the tonight show the first time, and then Kimmel doing quite well at 11:30 once they moved him to that slot. Fallon was in an incredibly difficult place for a while, but he's managed to carve out his own niche on the show.

[@gallery7596]

@@ErisRising Yes, despite all the shots he takes on these message boards, to be into his 9th year as host of "The Tonight Show," Fallon must be doing something right.

[@wtlandry2]

I love it, the more stoned Bill gets and has no writers around to bolster his "intellect", he really knows nothing. Even about the industry he is a part of. It's fucking mind blowing how no one else points this out.

[@VNavale]

How is it that Bill Maher does not know this stuff? It's on the internet and everyone knows what Jay did to Conan.

[@gallery7596]

Conan did some stuff to Jay, too. However, Bill's problem here seems to be that he's just stoned.

[@johnsjohnson448]

@@gallery7596I know, right? LOL. Perhaps Bill was not in the game like Jay and Dave were. His show moved from Comedy Central to ABC until they fired him in 2002 where months later, Jimmy Kimmel replaced him. So, I wonder about Bill's playing dumb, or stoned. LOL.

[@gallery7596]

@@johnsjohnson448 I say stoned. When this was actually happening in the news around 2009-2020, the best, most quotable observations came from Bill Maher. Example: *"When Leonardo Dicaprio gets a script does he go 'I'd really like to do this, but Jake Gyllenhaal had his heart set on it. Would I be ruining his dream?"* Bill kinda let Jay (and himself) down by coming to the conversation high.

[@johnsjohnson448]

@@gallery7596 Bill seems to act dumb (or stoned) because he was in the thick of it. His show moved from Comedy Central to ABC where it aired against the final half hour of Dave's and Jay's programs. Jimmy replaced Bill's show on ABC.

[@gallery7596]

@@johnsjohnson448 Well, maybe. But it was a lot of years after "Politically Incorrect" was cancelled that "The Tonight Show" debacle occurred.

[@tokesalotta1521]

Seems that NBC should've followed what they did in the 90s and had Jay slowly take more nights off and had guest hosts and then slowly build the selected guest host up with more air time

[@gallery7596]

Yes, but the thing is Johnny, who was 67, only doing 3 shows a week, and taking frequent vacations, had been going on auto pilot for some time. Whereas Jay was still bringing in the ratings, attracting all ages, and clearly nowhere near the point yet where he should be stepping down. That forced retirement was a major miscalculation on the part of *NBC.*

[@cherbutler85]

Jay never had a guest host. Jay only wanted people to look at him. Nobody else mattered (in his mind), not even his guests. I could not stand a Jay. If a guest said something funny. Jay constantly and immediately tried to top them with a “funnier” joke. His jokes were always lame to me. Mr. Obvious, if you me. (Conan is the real genius.) Jay is a major douche bag, too. Trust me. In the middle of his Tonight Show run he stopped in to my little rinky-dinky town during a city wide car show. He was treated like a God. Everybody appeared gracious and friendly. I didn’t see him but a relative of mine did. He said Jay was extremely kind as well. So of course, for the next episode of the Tonight show the whole town tuned in to hear if he would bring up his visit. Well,…that piece of shi( ) did. He made 3 consecutive jokes about how fat everyone was in this little town he “worked at” over the weekend. First of all, he didn’t work anywhere near here. Secondly, that scumbag kicked sand in the face of 100’s of people who treated him like a God. Scumbag, from head to toe.

[@JAFOpty]

Bill always does this. If you are his BFF, you cant do anything wrong. He is like this with Leno, Vedder, Sean Penn, Hefner. He defends them like crazy, and will not accept any criticism, because your are wrong automatically and a crybaby according to him.

[@davidmoser3535]

No one listens to Billo, he has always been a lightweight in my mind.

[@bradwinfield5672]

🤣

[@skipperiffic]

I can’t believe how Clueless Maher is about his own business!

[@tookeetalaska1387]

Yeahh because everyone knows everything about everyone... 🤔

[@DavidLLambertmobile]

Show Biz is very complex, twisted. The problem few understand tv, film, video, music is all $$$, egos, contracts, schedules, relationships. You may think you just contact a star or actor. You need to deal with agents, managers, lawyers, accountants, ...

[@raqui174]

He isn’t a tonight show host

[@gallery7596]

@@djalpacalypse3841 RE: "it's because he's friends with Leno so he probably only heard Leno cry about it fir years and giving his side of the story." Bill Maher when "The Tonight Show" debacle was happening: *"There's no greater way you can show affection for a man than to do his show when you have nothing to promote. But I did Conan's show just to say 'welcome to LA, and I like you.'"* Maher actually had a lot of really intelligent (and funny) observations about that contentious mess when he did "Larry King Live." The problem here is . . . he's baked. It's like watching a totally different person. The guy should never again do a show while stoned.

[@JohnSmith-yd5wq]

@@djalpacalypse3841 exactly. I knew Maher would stick up for Leno. Who was INSANELY RICH at the time.

[@bluemystic7501]

I think the point that a lot of people miss with this Late Night drama is that these hosts were just pawns for these networks. Networks are really only concerned with ratings and profit, as they should be. But these hosts in this late night shuffle seemed to think it was personal.

[@2004cyrus]

You are right the hosts don’t own their time slots. But when you work somewhere for 20+ years it does start to feel personal when one become King of Late Night

[@zebrastreet9993]

Duh it took a while for it to suddenly dawn on me that Jimmy is who ABC replaced Bill with way back when they cancelled Politically Incorrect. I use to love that show, and I was always working late at home for my telecommute job and would make sure to set aside computer tasks that didn’t require intense concentration so I could turn on Bill and his guests and at least hear it in the background. I was so bummed out when ABC cancelled it. I guess it all worked out in the long run for Bill (who actually annoys me sometimes these days but that’s a different story).

[@DD-sh1oy]

I think Kimmel is looking at it from Conan's point of view and showing empathy towards him, while Maher, clueless and egotistical, is just lost in his own head and not really listening to Kimmel. lol

[@MediaOnMute]

Yeah, Maher didn't even know about this infamous 5 year agreement within NBC where it was made clear Leno would pass the baton onto Conan and then ride into the sunset. That was the whole idea. Leno deciding not to retire and essentially creating the Tonight Show 2.0 via a loophole totally ratfucked Conan and that's what everyone had a problem with. I remember Letterman condemning Leno at the time, saying, "Don't just hang around." Like, you agreed to leave, so leave.

[@MrJimmy3459]

@@MediaOnMute Except the ratings dropped when Conan took over, most of you forget its a business

[@MediaOnMute]

@@MrJimmy3459 Jimmy explains in this clip why that happened.

[@spooley]

@@MediaOnMute Bill also conveniently leaves Helen Kushnick out saying Jay didn't have anyone repping him.

[@bigstroke2069]

Isn't that what Bill usually does?

[@themagickalmermaid]

Thanks Jimmy for spilling the tea! Business can be complicated!

[@robvangessel3766]

If I heard right, Jay was representing himself. He had no agent. This at least explains his aggressiveness in the business. Anyone in that position has to be tough to survive.

[@robvangessel3766]

@@gallery7596 This is why hate rhetoric from quarters like Howard Stern (at least back then) was over-the-top. I mean like Jay was total vermin.

[@Pewling]

Genuine Kimmel hits way harder than TV Kimmel.

[@yumyumeatemup]

4:17 I think this is where Bill nails it. If anything these past few years have shown me about Jimmy Kimmel, is that the man can be PETTY as fuck, and hold a grudge. Also atrociously unfunny amongst his peers in the late night talk show slot.

[@gallery7596]

Kimmel tries to have it both ways. He shares these unflattering suspicions about Jay, but then he says "I'm fine with him now," and he even told Marc Maron "I'd be a jerk to keep hating him." You can't say you don't hate someone if you're also out there disparaging their character. My theory about Kimmel is he's still carrying a grudge against Jay for getting picked to replace Carson over Jimmy's boyhood comedy hero Dave Letterman.

[@tairacapeta717]

Bill assume too much and when he is wrong he comes off petty.

[@bugeye8749]

THIS

[@alexplorer]

Yep, I caught that too. Maher didn't even have his facts straight that even outsiders knew (2:52 "Oh, so he [Conan] did stay five years?"), then downshifts to cheap ad hominem attacks when the facts start mounting (4:15 "...Did he touch you, Jimmy?"). Kimmel is a star witness in the case against Leno. I always liked Kimmel's show, but I really enjoyed seeing how much integrity he has demonstrated even when it didn't benefit him. He stood up for Conan and called out Leno for being a back-stabbing fraud.

[@tairacapeta717]

@@alexplorer Kimmel has the best perspective of it all since he observe whats going on while its going on. the fact Kimmel gave his opinion. Then you know how shitty the whole mess is.

[@ellecampbell3271]

Smarmy!

[@JK-nq1dl]

@@alexplorer How did Leno backstab the man who have an ultimatum that Leno be fired or he’d leave?! You people are ridiculous

[@trini4204]

Love bill but I agree with Jimmy , integrity is important in life also , people will never forget what a weasel he is

[@JK-nq1dl]

But people forget Conan was the weasel who demanded Jay be forced out

[@gallery7596]

Conan made some questionable decisions, too. His hands aren't clean.

[@djalpacalypse3841]

@@JK-nq1dl he waited 5 years and was promised the slot. That's why NBC payed him 60 million for breach of contract when they kicked him out for Leno.

[@JK-nq1dl]

@@djalpacalypse3841 So how is he a victim? He pushed his way to the job and did so bad they paid him $60million to go away but his groupies think he suffered?! Lopez didn't get paid anything to go away but that's not hypocritical?

[@gallery7596]

@@djalpacalypse3841 *NBC* promised Jay the slot years earlier, too, and when Letterman publicly complained, they reversed themselves and offered him "The Tonight Show" so he wouldn''t jump to *CBS.* Not taking that offer was the smartest decision Dave could've made, and it's just a shame Conan didn't get that what the network could do to Dave and Jay, they could just as easily do to him. Conan should've gone to *ABC* or *FOX* back in 2004 when those networks were anxious to give him a show at an earlier time.

[@yodirt6230]

4:02 he saying ya because he knows bill cant wrap his head around anything that doesnt involve being greedy

[@TheCrazyCanuck420]

When he said "Fallon surging" I shuddered a little bit.

[@bradwinfield5672]

🤣

[@Jason.Davis.]

Poor Jimmy, you can tell he didn’t really want to talk about this and now it shows up on youtube as the main clip for this great podcast. It’s nice seeing him be normal and stoned, not goofy and sober like on his so so show.

[@Simon-talks]

Yeah it's good when he's real like this and not spreading fake, NWO big corporate hollyweird woke libtard propaganda like he does on his terrible show.

[@MisterMooster]

For me I like Jimmy Kimmel the best of anyone on late night, I just think his humor is more creative and varied, but it's good to see this side of him.

[@conorkennedy3304]

I love Jimmy Kimmel and it's funny as hell to see him stoned. I think his voice went down an octive. Great show, Great guest.

[@MisterMooster]

@@conorkennedy3304 He seemed way more mature here than he ever does on his show. I think he could act more matuire o0n his show and still be funny- I think it would actually help his shows. He also seemed a lot smarter here than he generally does on his show, where he often seems somewhat awkward, and he seemed way more together here.

[@euphoricmonk]

@@MisterMooster Agreed. If he acted this way calm and relaxed I would watch his show. Now, he's a MSM buffoon.

[@trevorhembrough1290]

Bill’s like the only person in show biz that stuck up for Leno throughout the whole back and forth with him and Conan. I’m sure the fact Leno was doing Real Time all throughout that was completely unrelated.

[@gibberconfirm166]

I sympathized with Jay more after reading the Bill Carter latenight wars books, even if I never loved his show.

[@mbaxter8]

There are some clips of Norm sticking up for Leno too. I'm a big Conan fan, never liked Leno, but also a huge Norm fan, so that shifted my perspective a bit

[@bugeye8749]

Haha exactly.

[@TonyVega123]

The nicest celebrity I ever met in my life was Jay Leno. I've met a few big stars, but Jay was by far the nicest. He talked to me for almost an hour. After that experience, I've always been a big supporter of his. I think he's super misunderstood

[@gallery7596]

RE: ''Bill’s like the only person in show biz that stuck up for Leno throughout the whole back and forth with him and Conan.'' No, there were a number of high-profile personalities during that mess who saw it Jay's way, too. Oprah, for one, and Howie Mandel told Stern right to his face that his allegations about Jay were way over the top. Check out Howie's recent podcast interview with Jay in which he lays out the whole affair (and much better than baked Bill does here) and why Jay wasn't treated fairly by the media, or by Conan.

[@robertphillips6296]

NBC didn’t want to lose either of them.

[@gallery7596]

Bill made a mistake doing this episode stoned, because when the "Tonight Show debacle" was in the news, he actually made some sharp observations about the whole affair. *(From Maher's appearance on Larry King's CNN show in 2010):* *Larry King:* 'What did you make of the whole Conan vs. Leno affair?" *Bill Maher:* "I actually made a lot of it. I wanna' start off by saying I like Conan a lot. I did his show when he came out to L.A.; I had nothing to plug, and there's no greater way you can show affection for somebody than to do their show when you don't have anything to promote. But I did it to say 'welcome to L.A. and I like you." Now, I did Jay's show about 10 days ago and I got all these tweets from Conan's fans. These are the people who are so upset that Conan didn't get 'The Tonight Show," and they're saying "why'd you do Jay Leno's show? He sucks! He's this! He's that!" These people need to get a grip. They have no idea how show business works, and it's not all that different from the way life in general works. And this business about Jay Leno being selfish-" *Larry King:* 'They say he shouldn't have taken 'The Tonight Show' after only 5 months." *Bill Maher:* "Why? I saw Oprah on her show ask Jay ten different ways 'are you sorry you ruined Conan's dream?' Why is it Jay Leno's job to be concerned with Conan O'Brien's dream? When Leonardo Dicraprio gets a script does he say 'I'd really like to do this, but Jake Gyllenhaal had his heart set on it. Would I be ruining his dream?' I think we've all been in the position where we were offered something that somebody else wanted. Hey, Bob in accounting wanted that job, so should I give it to him?" "Now, the one place I would criticize Conan- and Dave Letterman for that matter- are these comments 'you can do anything you want in this world, as long as Jay Leno doesn't want to do it, too.' You're not a kid who got his ice cream knocked to the ground by Jay Leno. He beat you for something. And by the way: it's a very desirable job. You wanna be on top of the mountain? There's gonna be some others who wanna be there, too."

[@michael_desanta117]

He's kinda wrong about the whole thing and keeps forgetting that Jay, on multiple occasions, acted like he was so happy to pass the torch to Conan and that he was done doing the Tonight Show. Only to come back less than a year later and (IMO) maliciously try to either force Conan out of the time slot or leave the network all-together. Its a prime example of a shitty Indian giver situation.

[@gallery7596]

@@michael_desanta117 RE: "He's kinda wrong about the whole thing and keeps forgetting that Jay, on multiple occasions, acted like he was so happy to pass the torch to Conan and that he was done doing the Tonight Show." Yes, Jay did have to "act," but it wasn't his idea. You see, he never imagined that at the relatively young age of 54 (Carson was 65 when he stepped down) and still consistently #1 that *NBC* would decide to drop him because they felt keeping Conan was more important. Such ingratitude by not only the network, but, also Conan, whom Jay had supported during his fledging years as host of "Late Night." But, *NBC* appealed to Jay not to make a Letterman style fuss about it, so he graciously wished Conan well, and now this is what Conan's fans like to point to as Jay actually wanting to retire, and then changing his mind. Anyone who reads Bill Carter's excellent book *"The War Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane"* will see who was really responsible for that host switching scheme. Sure wasn't Jay. RE: "Only to come back less than a year later and (IMO) maliciously try to [make] leave the network all-together." That's what Conan's deal with *NBC* was going to do to Jay.

[@hutchviews]

Jimmy is exaggerating the effect of having a strong lead-in for The Tonight Show. There were many years when NBC prime time was in third or even fourth place, yet Jay was #1. Moreover, local news precedes The Tonight Show. People tune in at 11:30 to watch their favorite late night show. Jay never wanted to leave NBC and complied with what they pressured him to do. Because Conan was impatient and faltered in the ratings, he chose to scapegoat Jay. By the way, if having a strong lead in is as important as Conan says, then he should have welcomed the offer to retain The Tonight Show at midnight while Jay did a monologue at 11:30. But that hurt Conan’s pride, so he quit. Jimmy, you can’t be condescending and claim the story “is more complicated” and then omit these facts.

[@jondoe-ej3nv]

Nah. There is no 10pm time slot for late night tv. It's all 11:30 or later. Jay squatted at NBC when he should have gracefully moved on after his five year deal.

[@odc52]

That 5 year deal itself was the first red flag. It fucked Conan and cost Leno all the respect.

[@anthonybiamonte472]

4:26 Kimmel admits that Leno and he are on good terms now - they made peace when Leno showed genuine concern about Kimmel's son in 2017. So at this point, any "feuds" are purely discussed for cheap publicity.

[@gallery7596]

Yes, I think Jimmy is trying to have it both ways saying the feud's over (and to Marc Marron he said "I'd be a jerk to keep hating Jay"), and then hypothesizes that Jay may have accepted the 10pm show thinking it would bomb so could get "The Tonight Show" back from Conan. Pretty farfetched theory, too. I think Jimmy might be hanging out with Stern too much.

[@Prickly_G]

Maher comes off as absolutely clueless here: "Why is Jay always looking out for Conan's interest?" WTF?

[@gallery7596]

He meant "why *should* Jay have to look out for Conan?" Bill really ought to stay sober when he's working.

[@jesseemullen]

I like hearing Jimmy talking straight, instead of hearing him talk in character.

[@undergroundunlimited2282]

I think Conan was awesome in the late late show like Dave had been. His audience was was younger and stayed up later, the bits were edgier, acts were cooler/younger for that crowd. Your parents were the jay leno/Johnny Carson crowd, you were the Conan crowd. When conan moved into jays spot i had the feeling the older crowd just wasn’t gonna get him, that coupled with jays lead in being a bad idea, never really gave conan a chance at nbc. NBC didn’t want jay to go to a competitor where he most likely was gonna draw big numbers from his previous audience.

[@gallery7596]

And *NBC* didn't want Conan to go to a competitor either, which is what prompted them to offer Conan "The Tonight Show" if he'd wait 5 years for it. Just a terrible idea all the way around.

[@thisshouldbeentertaining3386]

Yep several reasons why Conan's tonight show failed. 1 everyone knew jay wasn't happy with being replaced. So the audience that had been watching jay for 15+ year's wasn't fully supporting Conan , #2 NBC gave Leno 3+ year's to gain his audience back in the early 90's. But only gave Conan a year and half. #3 NBC wouldn't let Conan use most of his longtime bit's like pooping robot , Mr MET , Masturbating bear for they deemed it too edgey for the tonight show.

[@doorknob2150]

Jimmy's a huge Letterman fan. You can't be a fan of Letterman AND a fan of Jay. lol

[@ManicMindTrick]

Of course you can

[@garyredmond6873]

I am

[@Uouttooo]

I used to watch both Jay and Letterman.

[@BlueEyes-gp8lg]

I was until Dave started getting so political in his later years. That's why I don't watch Kimmel or Colbert.

[@gallery7596]

I think we can like both Jay and Letterman. However, because Kimmel looks upon Dave as his comedy hero- and as that hero has displayed a continuing resentment towards Jay- it's probably tough for Kimmel not to be influenced by the bad example Dave's set for him with that resentment.

[@RetroView66]

Look at those uncozy chairs from 1990! This is Bill Maher's ultimate safe space: a college dorm at 3AM high off his ass.

[@DJCryptoStix]

Lol Bill made to look so dumb by Jimmy and Jimmy tried to not go into it but Bill screwed the story Jimmy had to correct him 🤣. "I don't remember" "no, no one knew about it but me" I'm flipping dead lol

[@KevinStClair-ph6me]

The comments about Leno and his weasel ethics are well known in the comedy world. Leno went beyond sticking up for himself and straight into sabotaging others.

[@hutchviews]

It’s so naive to think that show business is about holding hands and singing kumbaya.

[@christianfinkbeiner684]

Conan tried to take Leno's spot in 2004. Why should Leno have been loyal to him?

[@mckernan603]

@@hutchviews It's not, and you're not REQUIRED to have any class on the rocky road of life. But don't pretend to miss the point when we ask for it.

[@dominantprime]

@@christianfinkbeiner684 He didn't though, he was getting courted by other networks to do a show opposite Jay. He didn't want the Tonight Show immediately in 2004, he just wanted assurances on paper that he would get it somewhere down the line if he were to stay at NBC. They agreed to wait 5 years, and by the way Jay didn't have to agree to this. He could've said no, he wants to keep going, and then Conan would've gone elsewhere. But he did agree to leave in 5 years. Everyone knew time was marching on, and Leno and Letterman would both be retiring in the near future (turned out to eventually be in 2014 and 2015, so about 10 years from 2004). Conan is 13 years younger than Jay, so having Leno retire a bit early while still at number 1, then Conan can do a 15+ year stint on the Tonight Show sounds like a decent plan on paper, especially as NBC gets to keep Conan. As opposed to, Conan goes to ABC let's say, now Leno is opposite both Conan and Letterman, and hypothetically after Leno and Letterman retire, Conan is now number 1 on ABC and NBC is left to eat dust. It made sense they wanted to keep Conan and do that transition, but then they messed it all up by putting Leno at 10 and tanking both his and Conan's ratings.

[@AnubisDogman]

Oh yeah? Tell us all about it when you do your next crowd work? What are your touring dates?

[@Graybeard_]

To me the bottom line is the tv execs manipulated the situation from every conceivable angle, and it was inevitable that feelings would get hurt, and the the comedians in question would be pitted against each other and put in situations where they had little choice but to look out for themselves at the expense of the others. The whole thing is sad, as they all seem like good people to me.

[@gallery7596]

*NBC* just seemed incapable of understanding you can't keep two people who want the same thing. But they tried (again), and it was a disaster.

[@0ntimetaiment921]

Exactly. No idea why the hosts all blame each other for a decision that way made on a corporate level. Then again, some of them seem rather thin skinned. I mean Jimmy being so hurt just because he never got a call back sounds like soap opera level relationships to me.

[@johnsjohnson448]

Just like in every day jobs. People get "screwed." Only the do not get to walk away with millions to salve the wounds.

[@johnsjohnson448]

Capitalism. LOL. Often times, these "types" never know that they are either being hired or fired until it lands in the "trades."

[@kangaroofoot]

@@0ntimetaiment921Jimmy wasn’t hurt that Jay stopped calling, he said it to point out Jay’s hypocrisy. You thinking it was about Jimmy getting hurt says something about the way you see things. lol

[@NoelComiX]

Conan was a bad fit at 11:30. The average American thought Conan was too weird and edgy. My aunt stopped watching the tonight show when Conan took over and switched to Letterman. Once Conan moved to cable he not only lost to the networks but also to cable competitors. I say this and Conan was my favorite. Conan should have switched to Fox and been like the cool Arsenio Hall guy. He could be edgy plus have a network’s prestige.

[@christopherbush9027]

The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. To truly understand how NBC made a mess of the Tonight Show transition multiple times you have to go all the way back to the early 1980's. By then, Johnny Carson had become the tail that wagged the dog at NBC. The network was in total freefall and late night was all it had going for it. Carson took full advantage of this, and when he negotiated the last of his big deals at the network got everything he wanted and then some. He owned the show, he had total say over who followed him at 12:35 (which he also got the show shortened to it's now 1 hour runtime), fewer shows, the appointment of a permanent guest host (which would feed into all of this), and more time off. Carson had a very complicated relationship with the brass at NBC, and it showed. He hand picked Letterman to follow him after giving Tom Snyder, who Carson didn't particularly care for, the boot from his Tomorrow show. Letterman, like his idol Carson, never really got along with the top execs at NBC. And while Letterman was loved by Johnny, his quirky off handed brand of comedy didn't always land with audiences the way we like to think it did. He's beloved by fellow comedians and constantly citied as a major influence of many of todays top comedy talent - but so was another up and comer in the comedy world - Jay Leno. When Joan Rivers bolted her permanent guest hosting duties on The Tonight Show (and ruined a decades long friendship with Carson over it) for her own ill-fated late night show on Fox, Jay Leno would eventually be named the new permanent guest host of The Tonight Show. Watch Showtimes docuseries on The Comedy Store for some serious background - Jay Leno at one time was one of the biggest things in standup comedy - someone who just about every comic would stop everything they were doing backstage whenever he got up to do his set. Yes - Leno had Helen Kuschner - an old-school Hollywood bully right out of central casting - but she got the job done. She saw what many in the business refused to believe - that Carson was in the last few years of a career that was coming up on it's 30th year as host of The Tonight Show. She planted stories in the NY Post about NBC wanting to give Carson the boot, and this caused a tremendous amount of animosity between the Carson camp, and Jay Leno. Did Jay know everything Helen was doing? I don't think he knew everything. But at the end of the day, she was his representation, and he knew she had a killer reputation. He had blood on his hands too. Fast forward to the presentation of the NBC Fall Schedule for 1991-1992 television season. Leno is there to tell some jokes, and Carson is there unbeknownst to anyone at NBC to announce his retirement at the conclusion of his 30th anniversary as host of The Tonight Show. NBC has nothing prepared and is caught totally off-guard. What no one knew outside of the top GE executive at NBC and NBC's top two executives - Leno has already been given a deal to take over as host of The Tonight Show whenever Carson retires. On one hand - Carson had every right to be pissed, and no right at all in the same breath. For years he had been dancing back and forth with the idea of retirement and would give NBC no long term commitment as to what the future held. He was also the undisputed King Of Late Night and felt some level of respect was in order, and it probably should have been. But why didn't NBC care what Johnny thought about his replacement? I think a few things factored into their decision not to confer. Johnny kept them in the dark about his plans moving forward, so both sides were playing the same coy game. Carson obviously had faith in Leno because he had signed off on the decision to make him permanent guest host. But he also gave Dave the same type of seal of approval by keeping him in the 12:35 slot since the early 1980's. With Jay, NBC owned the Tonight Show once again. With Dave - his Worldwide Pants company would want ownership just like Carson Productions had. Jay, aside from Helen, had a solid working relationship with the execs at NBC. Dave was known for sometimes being a little too cute with the network brass and wasn't seen as as much of a team player so to speak. Leno would have no say in who followed him at 12:35, where as Dave, like Johnny, would have final say over the time slot (and eventually did at CBS). And probably fatally for Dave, as outlined brilliantly in The Late Shift by Bill Carter, Dave had no representation and had never actually made a point of asking to be Carson's successor. As many of you have commented - it's a business, and by those standards alone - Leno was the safer bet to succeed Carson. Early on, Dave beat Jay head to head once Dave made the move to 11:35 at CBS. NBC famously had second thoughts about maybe giving Dave the job. But everything changed when Hugh Grant surprisingly chose NOT to back out of a prescheduled appearance with Jay after getting popped for solicitation. Jay famously started the awkward interview off by addressing the elephant in the room head on with "what the hell were you thinking" and there was no turning back. Jay was #1 head to head, and never lost the late night ratings war again. Dave brought back Carson not-so-favorite Tom Synder for his follow-up at 12:35, and oddly enough to add even more layers to this, Conan beat Synder his entire three years on the air at CBS. Conan was more of a Letterman comedian than a Leno, and that makes what happened so much more fascinating. There was serious questions about whether or not Conan could hit it with the main stream late night audience that would tune in at 11:35, but not stay up past that. The SAME questions NBC execs had about Letterman when it came to whether or not he should replace Johnny. This is the part that doesn't get talked about enough - when NBC went to Leno to tell him they wanted to give him five more years and replace him with Conan - his initial reaction was "no" and "why". Conan was making the same power play behind the scenes that Helen had for Jay back in 1991. And just like NBC did in 1991 with Jay, they panicked about when it came to the idea of Conan leaving for another network. The late night landscape had changed a LOT since Carson signed off in May of 1992. NBC no longer had 11:35 all to itself. Before Carson left the air the only late night show that even put a dent in his viewership was Arsenio, and that was only in syndication. Jay was still on top. Jay was not ready to leave. He wasn't really given a choice. When Leno left, he left Conan with the #1 late show in the country. A few other factors that get missed, and Kimmel hits on one of them here, but it's a sword that cuts both ways. Yes - during the majority of Jay's original run as host, he had a VERY strong primetime lead in. Conan didn't. He had Jay at 10. But all the years that newcomers tried to dethrone Carson, he had NO lead in to speak of for many of those years at NBC. It wasn't until the mid-1980's that NBC struck gold in primetime and changed how networks built their schedules around blocks of similar programming. And there was still the lingering issue of Conan's style. Nobody compares to Carson, and nobody ever will. Yes, the competition was far less as there were so fewer options for viewing back then. But even with that, he was in a class all his own. Not Leno, not Letterman, or Conan or any of the guys who fill those spots today can even come close. But Leno was more widely liked by your average viewers. Letterman was up against it his entire time at CBS, he was more of an acquired taste - Conan had the same appeal. The fact that can't be disputed is that Jay returned to #1 as soon as he retook The Tonight Show. And I'll ask the question that no one who defends Letterman or Conan ever want to answer: what would they have done in the same situation? The answer, what Jay did. Letterman almost did - when NBC behind the scenes kinda offered him Jay's job. Conan, as some of you have pointed out, did the same thing to George Lopez - took his job. Not sure why that never gets discussed. Dave had one hell of a time at Leno's expense - and quite frankly while a lot of what he said was funny and made for good TV - it was sour grapes. Every comic of prominence wanted The Tonight Show when Carson retired. Only one of them got it. But it was never The Tonight Show like we all grew up knowing it - and it never will be again. Today The Tonight Show is a shell of it's former self. Fallon has done only slightly better than what Conan brought, and in the eyes of most critics falls a distant third to what Kimmel and Colbert bring to the table. The saddest cut of all, is that these guys all used to be friends - good friends at that. They all ended up scared by this I think both personally and professionally and late night will never be the same - for better or worse.

[@mercury_rising]

Wow, you know a lot about this!

[@christopherbush9027]

@@mercury_rising Thanks - Late Night has always fascinated me - it’s one of our treasured television institutions.

[@allendracabal0819]

I've never heard of a top comedian from the generation after Leno citing him as a "major influence". Can you back this up with some hard evidence?

[@frisco21]

Christopher Bush...your summary and analysis, while probably too lengthy for the KZbin format, is a worthwhile read. My take-away is that the Late Night Wars was a complex event with no clear-cut bad guys or good guys --- even NBC, the closest thing to the "bad guy" here, could be defended, from a certain perspective, for the way they handled the situation. At first glance, Conan _appears_ to come off as the cleanest player and Jay the dirtiest, but I've always been left with a lingering suspicion that if the whole story were to be revealed, Jay would fare better in the public perception than he did. Your analysis tended to confirm this for me.

[@bil186]

Great insight, although I still think that Jay would have been better off moving to another network when Conan took over..

[@mckernan603]

Right on Jimmy. Bill's being a dummy here: would he forgive Ted Koppel (his PI lead-in back on ABC) for not once promoting PI?

[@wintercomesearly]

@@Simon-talks He's not even informed. Jimmy had to give him background. Even I know more about the story than Bill.

[@michaeleaster1815]

Bill is baked and just not getting it... painful to watch

[@gallery7596]

@@michaeleaster1815 Oh, Bill gets it (he made some excellent observations about the whole affair when it was going on in 2010), but I barely recognize him the way he is in this episode. Clearly, Bill should not have done it stoned.

[@chriskay1449]

Jimmy literally dodged two questions and made a baseless claim. Kimmel is the dummy and revealed what kind of a clown he is.

[@wazgoodjj]

At the end of the day, Conan walked away with millions of 💸 💰 and landed a great show over at TBS. Jay left shortly and Conan dominated. Everyone wins.

[@gallery7596]

Jay left 4 years later, and still #1 in the ratings. He has two shows currently running, too. So, yeah, everybody did win.

[@scmsean]

Conan had horrible ratings on TBS.

[@gallery7596]

@@scmsean Yes, I think TBS cutting Conan to half an hour was probably an indication that his show wasn't as profitable as it used to be.

[@priapushk996]

More like everyone lost. Conan is a podcaster, ffs.

[@marcoarreola9058]

I'd say that Jay has done even better after he left the show.

[@jsteingruber7570]

Jay did have a manager. He had her do his dirty work and then threw her under the bus.

[@gallery7596]

You're talking about Helen Kushnick, and there's no evidence Jay knew about the stories she had planted in the trades. Jay should've fired her when she came clean, but he assured her husband on his deathbed he'd look after her. However, when her psycho behavior as producer of "The Tonight Show" almost got Jay canned, he finally said enough is enough and fired her.

[@blackcato5479]

I like Bill but his friendship with Leno is clouding his judgement.

[@gallery7596]

I had the same thought about Kimmel's relationship with Stern.

[@miketheyunggod2534]

Really? OK liberal fuck. Let's Go Brandon! Ultra MAGA King returns!

[@a.j.j7533]

its amazing how easily bill maher was able to slip into podcasting/YouTubing/and documenting essential modern comedy history

[@anthonygordon9483]

Who doesn't have a pod cast these days. Conan practically left TV to commit to pod casting>

[@jaakkorahkola2430]

This isnt a good look on Bill at all...

[@Doopersteen]

I enjoy these clips but stoned Bill needs to let the guest finish he just cuts them off repeatedly. No matter what

[@anthonygordon9483]

@@Doopersteen hah, He is the same way on his show. He just usually stoned before he gets on air and he usually has 3 panels and a stage manager to tell him to be quiet. This is just Bill Maher unhinged. Nothing wrong with that. He has pretty good guest so it seems he is very well respected amongst hollywood. I honestly think Bill is pretty much the voice of Hollywood actors in general. He says the shit that most actors wont say in the public eye and be punished for it. Dave Chappelle said it best. You can't cancel a man that has already been cancelled. Bill has already been cancelled early in his career so he doesnt care regardless. HBO doesn't care either cause they don't need sponsors to fund their TV shows.

[@seraby7151]

​@@anthonygordon9483conan and maher had no choice since they are in less popular networks. Podcast is next best thing. It's not what they wanted but it's still inline with their skills.

[@Ssethtzeentach_enjoyer]

Kimmel's stunt on Jay's show makes a lot more sense, now. He knew the dynamics of the situation so well that it was almost personal for him.

[@gallery7596]

Kimmel, I think, was influenced more by the open resentment of his comedy hero, Dave Letterman toward Jay. I don't think Dave, or Jimmy, ever got over *NBC* picking Jay to replace Carson.

[@bigoltits1880]

What if I told you that this person you're engaging with (@Gallery) is actually a notorious tr011? Just search "Leno vs Conan" and click the first 5 videos that come up on KZbin. I will bet my salary that you'll find @Gallery's anti-Conan comments under ALL of those videos. This person has no life to live, so they spend all their time hating on conan online. I was able to trace @Gallery's comment history back to 9 years. He has been doing this for 9 years. THe same old talking points that defend Leno and demonize conan, the same old lies. Relentless. I've noticed this sick person's comments on like 12 videos so far. And he has called all Team Coco fans "chickens" too, so don't fall for his polite act. He is a tr011 through and through. Just thought you should know who you're talking to. 9 years, dude. 9 years and you're just his latest target.

[@brianw13]

I’m conflicted. A part of me agrees with Bill. Why is Jay Leno getting the bad rap for this? Why not the NBC executives for putting both of these guys in this predicament?

[@EHCBunny4real]

Jay did the same thing Oprah did to PI. She moved into a time slot which ruined demographics for smaller shows to survive

[@jasonpotts6490]

@@joshm2243 Magnum PI? /s

[@drayduke]

Maher said once Oprah did the same to him, time-slot wise, so apparently this 'taking over my preferred time slot' - is a quite common thing in the biz. Hard to be friends with everyone because of that. I was just surprised Maher is so Team Leno and so little Team Conan, but maybe it is a generational thing.

[@EHCBunny4real]

@@jasonpotts6490 Politically Incorrect

[@gallery7596]

@@drayduke RE: "I was just surprised Maher is so Team Leno and so little Team Conan," Maher thought the notion that Jay should tailor his decisions according to what was best for Conan was silly. As he told Larry King when all this was happening: *"you're not a kid who got his ice cream knocked to the ground by Jay Leno; he beat you for something,"* and of Conan's desire to have Jay's job he said: *"you wanna be on top of the mountain? There's gonna be some others who want to be there, too."* But Team CoCo just wants to see Conan as an innocent victim when the fact is he made some rather coldblooded decisions, too.

[@zee0055]

Well I have to mention my favorite host Craig Ferguson for being the funniest host...

[@tibetsfinest]

Damn i didn't know Jay Leno ghosted Jimmy Kimmel like that. That's a straight dick move by Jay. A side of Jay i'd never heard about before....

[@aidandoylepolitics]

Jimmy isn’t willing to just agree with everything bill says which is weird to see

[@brucybabyy7355]

jimmy looks soooo chill.

[@jeffclement2468]

I think Jimmy's so ripped, he could safely view an eclipse 🤣

[@CharlieBrown20XD6]

What's sad is it never mattered in the end. Talk shows are on their way out.

[@gallery7596]

That's kinda true. Anyone can do a podcast and watch it whenever or check out a show's highlights a couple hours after it airs. Was coming on precisely at 11:35pm really so important?

[@TimothyJChowne]

I love Kimmel's reaction😂 "uhu"

[@seeemsee]

I remember being so happy when I heard that Leno was going away. Then he stayed.

[@iamthem.a.n.middleagednerd1053]

While I love both Jay and Conan, Jay Leno doesn't OWN NBC. He had the right to work just the same as Conan. It was the NBC executives that made the decisions they made to put Jay at 10pm and Conan at 11:30pm.

[@vincentpuleo4732]

@@UserUser-zc6fx Conan took Jay's job.Why do people dismiss that.Did Conan ask Jay if he was cool with being kicked out in 5 years?

[@gallery7596]

@@vincentpuleo4732 Jimmy should explain why Conan making a deal that was deciding Jay's retirement date was okay, but Jay accepting an offer that still allowed Conan to stay was bad. Jimmy's view seems one-sided, and if Bill wasn't so drunk he might've called him out on that.

[@codygoodman8794]

@@vincentpuleo4732 Jay signed the deal, though. Does he not have consequences for his own actions? And the disagreement wasn't over Jay at 10:00. It's when NBC moved Jay back to 11:30 and pushed the Tonight Show to 12.

[@gallery7596]

@@codygoodman8794 RE: "Jay signed the deal, though." The deal for Conan to take "The Tonight Show" was signed between *NBC* and Conan before Jay knew a thing about it. *NBC* informed Jay afterward of their decision. Jay asked "why not just drop me when I'm no longer #1?", but *Jeff Zucker* had made up his mind that Jay was gonna be out in 2009 and Conan would be in. *Zucker* changed the deal, however, when 2009 arrived and Jay's still #1 while Conan's occasionally losing to Craig Ferguson at 12:35am. RE: "It's when NBC moved Jay back to 11:30 and pushed the Tonight Show to 12." This was an *NBC* proposal, and when Jay asked if he could get out of his contract they told him no. But, in the end, it never happened because Conan resigned and took the buy-out package.

[@smokefree08]

Why is Bill always looking out for Jay's interests?

[@edsnotgod]

Bill wants a Tesla but Leno and Musk wont sell him one

[@gallery7596]

He dares to see Conan not as a victim, but someone who felt a bit too entitled.

[@codygoodman8794]

@@gallery7596 Jay signed the contract in 2003. He could have left and gone to ABC. Nobody held a gun to his head.

[@gallery7596]

@@codygoodman8794 RE: "Jay signed the contract in 2003." Actually, it was Conan (in 2004) who signed the contract to take over "The Tonight Show" upon the completion of Jay's contract. And Jay didn't know a thing about it until *NBC* informed him that he would be dropped in favour or Conan. That's all confirmed in Bill Carter's book "The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane." RE: "He could have left and gone to ABC. Nobody held a gun to his head." Jay was only halfway through his contract, whereas in 2004 Conan's was about to expire. He could have left and gone to *ABC* or *FOX* (where they were offering him way more money than *NBC* was). If Conan had done this, he would've had a network show, with an earlier start time, he wouldn't have had to wait 5 years to get it, and Jay could've remained at "The Tonight Show." The entire debacle could've been averted.

[@TonyB2279]

I feel bad for Leno in this situation. I mean, they came to *him* and said, "You're stepping down in five years." He didn't go to them, say he wanted to retire, and then change his mind (or even break down and come back because they threw a bunch of money at him). I DO agree with Letterman, however, that if he wanted to keep going he should have gone to ABC, CBS or whoever and negotiated a better deal for himself, rather than sticking with the people who already screwed him over. I think it's a little far-fetched to say that he schemed his way into the 10 p.m. timeslot in order to sabotage Conan. Presumably NBC offered him that in order to keep him from going to ABC (which, again, he really just should have done at that point, provided the Peacock wasn't offering him more money). I also agree with Maher, however, that it's not Leno's responsibility to do what's best for Conan. If he had just said "No" when NBC first tried to make him step down and threatened to sue the pants off them if they tried to force him out, I'd have no problem with him.

[@bigoltits1880]

@@gallery7596 RE: See? Even B.O.T.1880 finally came around.

[@davidbc5023]

No need to feel bad for Jay. Jay has had a bad track record when it comes. At the same time, he’s very business saavy and cutthroat. Jay isn’t some victim; he knows how to play the game and is diabolical.

[@bigoltits1880]

@@gallery7596 RE: See? Even B.O.T.1880 finally came around.

[@gallery7596]

What'd you come around to, biggie?

[@richstafford1245]

JK’s mind was poisoned on Leno by Howard Stern….

[@mikezazworsky]

For every one zeroing in on Jimmy saying "Conan wanted the 11:30 spot", and therefore he's just as bad (or worse than Leno), let's clarify, again: Conan wanted the 11:30 spot EVENTUALLY, that's the important part. Conan could've had an 11:30 show on Fox in 2004, but he went to NBC, told them his desire to stay w/ them & eventually take over the Tonight Show, at which point NBC talked to Leno, Leno AGREED to stay for 5 more years, at which point he was going to go back to doing standup exclusively. That agreement precipitated Conan's agreement to wait 5 years before taking the Tonight Show. Jay Leno could've easily said, in 2004, no, I'm not leaving anytime soon, it's my show, I'm number one in the ratings. That's clearly what he wanted to say. But he didn't, he agreed to leave, and then he didn't leave. He took a 10 o'clock show that was doomed to fail from day one, instead of going to another network (like ABC), taking an 11:30 slot there, and reclaiming his number one rating. That's what someone with backbone does, you don't stick around like a sniveling little pest, hinting around that you want your old job back. Leno felt disrespected, and he handled it like a crybaby. Whereas... Letterman felt disrespected in 1992, & left to forge something new. And, Conan felt disrespected in 2009, & left to forge something new. The latter two are far superior in every respect. Both are funnier, more original, better broadcasters. Both are revered for what they brought to the medium, both remain relevant in current projects, both are considered among the most influential comedians of the last half century. Leno is hacky shlub hocking watered-down crap. That's a top-notch recipe for big ratings on American TV & big paying crowds of Vegas tourists. Unfortunately it doesn't amount to much more. ALTHOUGH, when you're a hacky shlub hocking watered-down crap, ratings & paying crowds are all that matter. Respect, legacy, & influence, not so much. So I'm sure Jay's doing just fine.

[@tien90802]

"Jay Leno could've easily said, in 2004, no, I'm not leaving anytime soon, it's my show, I'm number one in the ratings. That's clearly what he wanted to say. But he didn't, he agreed to leave, and then he didn't leave." According to Leno, it wasn't an option to say no. NBC presented him with 2 options: (A) leave now, or (B) leave in 5 years.

[@miharijavec4605]

Im not from Us... but would the show at 10.00 "fail from the start"? Why was Leno not watched an 10.00? And why would someone want a 11.30 slot? I dont get it... is for some reason 11.30pm where people mostly watch tv in us?

[@zachsalvatore5175]

@@miharijavec4605that’s a great question. I’m American, and I’m not really sure why. Seems earlier the better

[@rijokripto3633]

@@zachsalvatore5175well yea... seems 10pm would be better than 11.30... in my country those are usualy 08.00! Hehe.

[@tien90802]

@@miharijavec4605 It's called late night TV. In the US, usually prime time TV is from 8-10pm. We have news at 11pm for 30 min and then at 11:30pm begins late night TV. This is where all the talk shows begin. It's coveted because this is how it's been for so many years. People are used to this, so they expect this. So, people expect talk shows to begin at 11:30. When you put one at 10pm, no one watched because no one expects there to be a talk show at 10pm. This is because talk shows are for adults. Usually, people put their kids to sleep at 10pm. So all the family programming are from 8-10pm. Then they go brush their teeth, whatever, get ready for bed. They get in bed and at 11pm, they turn on the TV to watch the news. Then all the talk shows come on at 11:30pm and they watch that until they fall asleep. So when you put a talk show on at 10pm, it's not a part of people's routine, so it doesn't do well. And the people that watch TV at 10pm (kids and other adults), they like to watch other things, not really talk shows. So basically the people that like to watch talk shows, they like it to be at 11:30, or they expect it to be at 11:30pm. But basically, when you introduce something different after it's been done one way for so many years, it's just hard to do well. --------------------- And also, here's the math. There's more people up and watching TV at 10pm then at 11:30pm. Let's say there's 50M people watching TV at 10pm, but by 11:30pm, there's only 20M people left still watching TV. Let's say NBC used to have some other show at 10pm that got 20% of the viewers, so 20% of 50M is 10M. That's called a lead in. So, they pass those 10M viewers onto the 11pm news, and then the 11pm news passes those viewers onto the 11:30pm talk show. Now, NBC has Leno at 10pm and it has a 15% rating. So, 15% of 50M =7.5M. Leno is only passing 7.5M to the 11pm news which passes on even less now to Conan. So by the time Conan's show comes on at 11:30pm, he has less of a lead in and that's due to Leno's 10pm show sucking.

[@robertphillips6296]

NBC Hedged Their Bet by keeping Jay on the Air with a Prime Time Talk Show.

[@gallery7596]

Yes, they tried to keep both guys (just like they did when Jay and Dave were competing for "The Tonight Show") and all the network did was prove twice that you can't hold onto two people who want the same thing.

[@Debby901]

I love that Bill sticks up for Jay and Jimmy Conan. That whole thing was a mess, should have never gone down that way. Both are good guys.

[@chrisdranfield3828]

Jay is clearly not a good guy. When so many of his peers dislike him him for being a backstabber. We’re talking lettermen , Conan , and kimmel all have issues with him.

[@Debby901]

@@chrisdranfield3828 I still like him. Their personal issues are there's.

[@gallery7596]

@@chrisdranfield3828 Lettermen's resentment over being *NBC's* second choice to replace Carson is legendary. He's also had feuds with other celebrities like Cher, Madonna, Bryant Gumbel, Sarah Palin, Shirley MacClaine, *OPRAH.* He is not the easiest guy to get along with. Conan (who acknowledged that Jay had supported him at *NBC)* made a deal with *NBC* that was basically deciding Jay's retirement date for him. But Conan thought it was wrong of Jay to accept an offer from *NBC* for the 10pm show. What kind of a double standard is that? Conan refused to be bumped to midnight when the ratings for both their shows were so bad, but he was fine with bumping George Lopez an hour later over at *TBS.* We know now Lopez had been asked by *TBS* to say he was okay with that move. Conan's pretty naive if he hadn't already suspected that was the case. Kimmel said Jay didn't call to tell him that their agreed upon deal for Jay to come to *ABC* was off. I think it would've been the polite thing for Jay to have informed him personally. But if that's the worst thing he ever did to Jimmy Kimmel, I don't think it ruined his life. Kimmel's thing is he was a Letterman admirer since adolescence, and I think he also never got over *NBC* deciding Jay was the better fit for "The Tonight Show" than his comedy hero.

[@TonyVega123]

@@chrisdranfield3828 You could not be more wrong. One of the nicest guys in Hollywood is Jay. I've heard this from so many industry people it's almost ridiculous. The people who don't like him seem to dislike him for reasons that don't even make sense when you truly analyze them

[@kangaroofoot]

@@Debby901It’s okay to like him, but he’s still a backstabbing POS.

[@tomnohmy1273]

This was a cool interview

[@tokesalotta1521]

Funny how Conan was always portrayed as some victim, but he was the one that started playing hardball, and then went on to do to Lopez what he accused Jay of doing to him

[@allendracabal0819]

I am glad that you voiced that opinion. I felt the exact same way at the time -- that after collecting a massive amount of sympathy, Conan effectively did the exact same thing to Lopez -- but nobody wanted to discuss that at the time, as it didn't fit their narrative. Cheers, mate.

[@gallery7596]

Conan's point about Jay was that he'd publicly wished him well, seeming to approve of Conan's move to become the new "Tonight Show" host, but then didn't leave. With regard to Lopez, Conan would probably mention that when he went to *TBS,* George stated that he was fine with Conan taking his timeslot. However, the truth is both these guys had been requested by *NBC* and *TBS* respectively to get on board with the plan and not make waves. And if Conan didn't realize this, then he is one naive television veteran. One more thing: when it was announced that Jay would be doing a 10pm show that would be Conan's "Tonight Show" lead-in, Conan stated that he was in favour of it, and said that the idea worked best for both he and Jay. So, does anybody out there think Conan was telling the truth when he said that?

[@trebm3]

Maher has some good points here. Kimmel and Conan have made Leno into some sort of demon. Throw Letterman into the mix and it makes it worse

[@fhowland]

Tells you a lot about Jimmy that he doesn’t like Jay, who is probably the most real, down to earth, nice guy in Hollywood.

[@jmarsh22]

I don't even think it's that much about not liking Jay, it's that Jimmy is a big Letterman fan. Guys Jimmy's age worshipped Letterman, and Jimmy took his side over Leno during their late night drama, and that carried over to the Leno/Conan controversy where he backed Conan.

[@kathleenrasing6818]

At the end of the day business-wise or career-wise, Jay took back what he had given already. He couldn't give up the throne - that he publicly gave away😅 no matter what Conan's ratings were, or what NBC offered him, that shouldn't be his concern anymore. He had his run, he passed the torch already. But nope, he felt entitled. It's a reflection of his character really, and that's why most people sided with Conan. It's like being given a Christmas gift and then your own parents taking it back and telling you they want it for themselves. It's just plain selfish.

[@gallery7596]

RE: "Jay took back what he had given already." Jay didn't have the power to give that job to anybody. *NBC* owns "The Tonight Show" and they decide who hosts it. RE: "He couldn't give up the throne - that he publicly gave away..." *NBC* implored him not to publicly complain Letterman style which would've created a lot of ugliness for everybody- Conan included. How could he know that 5 years later *NBC* would be begging him not to leave? RE: "He had his run, he passed the torch already." But leaving was never his decision. This was something imposed on him by a deal Conan made with the network. You see (in 2004) they wanted to keep Conan from leaving- which Conan should have done when other networks were fighting to give him a show of his own. But Conan had to have "The Tonight Show" even if it meant handing an eviction notice to Jay who years earlier had supported Conan when *NBC* wanted to fire him as host of "Late Night."

[@kathleenrasing6818]

@@gallery7596 Re: Jay didn't have the power to give that job to anybody. NBC decides who hosts it... Sure, but Jay has a choice. Conan was put on the same spot when it all went down. NBC asked him to move back to 12:30 and make room for both of them, to "save" his show but he didn't do it. He could have done what NBC told him to do and knows it could cost him legally, and his dream. BUT HE DIDN'T. Conan knew what he signed up for. That didn't worked out and moved to TBS. NBC had the power, but Jay had a choice just like Conan. Re: NBC implored him not to publicly complain like Letterman... How could he know 5 years later... Okay, NBC was the "gun to the head" in this situation. Still, both of them have the right to react. Jay SHOULD HAVE publicly complain then. If he knows he didn't deserved to be treated that way personally/professionally - to be forced to leave, then he should have complained in the first place. Conan inevitably did that when he said No to NBC's request of keeping both of them. He didn't give a shit because it was the right thing to do - it was a hard choice - at the expense of all his staff even, but that was what needs to be done. Conan knows what he deserves as a person and as a professional - to be treated right and to honor an agreement that was made 5 years ago that ALL parties agreed to - even Jay. Of course Jay didn't know 5 yrs back that this would happen, Conan didn't either. The deal changed, they were given new options. New choices. Conan chose to take the bullet, Jay chose to shoot Conan. Re: But leaving was never his decision...it was imposed on him by a deal Conan made with the network... Okay so NBC made a deal with Conan and he took it even if they knew it would cost Jay to leave in 5 years. So I guess fuck you too Conan. NBC ordered that, Conan said yes, and what did Jay said? Jay said yes too - maybe against his will, maybe with bitter feelings but HE AGREED anyway. He could have said No. And there would be no deal. Conan would have gone to other networks, but he stayed instead. Why? Coz JAY AGREED. Sure that may also be selfish of Conan to know that in 5 years if he took that deal Jay would be evicted but Jay was given that notice by NBC that this would happen. It's not like it was SUDDEN - Jay was given 5 years to move his ass. He agreed, 5 yrs went by, and he publicly handed the keys of his old place. You see NBC is not fully to blame here, it's a business decision for them. It always was and is. But for Conan and Jay it was a personal and professional decision. NBC controlled the agreement and made changes, but Conan and Jay had a choice - to either take it or leave it.

[@gallery7596]

@@kathleenrasing6818 RE: "NBC asked him to move back to *[12:05am]* and make room for both of them," And that would not have been possible had Conan asked for something that every other talk show host at that time had in their contracts: a clause called time slot protection. He and his team really dropped the ball there. RE: "He could have done what NBC told him to do. [---] That didn't worked out and [he] moved to TBS. NBC had the power. .. but Jay had a choice just like Conan." When *NBC* proposed the 30 minute show that would bump Conan to midnight, Jay asked if Conan was agreeable. *NBC* told him they were sure that he would get on board with it. In spite of that assurance, Jay asked if he could be released from his contract. *NBC* said no. So, despite what so many assume, Jay could not just walk away without penalty. And even the most loyal Conan fan cannot actually think Jay Leno should've placed himself in a position where he could be taken to court by the network in order to suit the guy whose decision cost him "The Tonight Show" in the first place. RE: "Jay SHOULD HAVE publicly complain then." And imagine the reaction of Jay's fans and "The Tonight Show" audience upon learning that this 12:35 guy (who hopes to be accepted as the new host at 11:35pm) made a deal to acquire Jay's position and didn't even consult with him first. I doubt Conan would've enjoyed people potentially looking upon him as a pushy interloper who'd stabbed the back of a guy who'd supported him in many ways at the network. I believe that Jay being gracious in defeat almost certainly spared Conan a great deal of public scorn. But to Team CoCo, not complaining at the time makes JAY the villain. Amazing. RE: "Conan inevitably did that when he said No to NBC's request [---] it was a hard choice - at the expense of all his staff even," And not all of his staff agreed with him. There was a minority there that felt he should've given 12:05am a try, and resented losing their jobs over the difference of a half hour. Was that wrong of them? RE: "Conan knows what he deserves as a person and as a professional - to be treated right and to honor an agreement that was made 5 years ago that ALL parties agreed to - even Jay. How can it be fair to hold Jay to an agreement that was signed before he knew a thing about it? He was give these choices: *you can gracefully accept what's been decided and leave in 5 years,* OR *you can publicly complain about it Letterman style and still leave in 5 years.* He chose the former, never even considering the possibility *NBC* was gonna reverse themselves in 2009 and start working on him to stay. Conan made the deal with *NBC.* Not Jay. And it was the network that altered the deal. Not Jay. RE: "New choices. Conan chose to take the bullet, Jay chose to shoot Conan." Well, if you only look at it from Conan's position, then I guess it's possible not to see Conan as having shot Jay in 2004 when he accepted the *"we'll sack Jay in 2009 if you stay with NBC"* offer. RE: [Jay] could have said No. And there would be no deal. I respectfully suggest reading Bill Carter's excellent book *"The War For Late Night: When Leno Went Early & Television Went Insane"* and find any mention of somebody at *NBC* indicating that if Jay said no, the deal would be off. RE: "...but Jay was given that notice by NBC that this would happen. It's not like it was SUDDEN -" But getting the news at 54, still consistently #1 and eager to continue: this was most definitely a blow to him. His comment to his producer after being informed of the network's decision was *"I feel like I just got fired."* Can we at least acknowledge the pain he felt at that moment? RE: "You see NBC is not fully to blame here, it's a business decision for them. It always was and is." Yes, just like it was also a business decision in 2009 they saw how Jay's still #1 while Conan is losing to Ferguson at 12:35am and they started thinking "are we making a mistake here?" RE: "But for Conan and Jay it was a personal and professional decision." Conan in 2004 made the decision that affected both of them. RE: "NBC controlled the agreement and made changes, but Conan and Jay had a choice - to either take it or leave it." And Conan certainly had some attractive offers coming from *ABC* and *FOX* to do a show of his own over there. He wouldn't have had to wait 5 years to get it either. But Conan chose the deal that he knew was putting Jay and his staff out to pasture. It just astounds me that some people still think he's the victim.

[@kathleenrasing6818]

@Gall ery Point taken. I read the comments, most people were all making the same points of Jay had a choice regardless - so either majority are dumb, or what idk. You know who the common denominator is with the Letterman and O'Brien late night debacle? Not to mention the Carson thing... One man, Leno 😅 that's not an accident. Letterman and Conan had the decency and integrity that when things didn't worked out, they do what's right. They essentially both did the same thing. Not exactly the same situation sure, but pretty much did the same thing - they walked away. They know how to say No. Integrity matters more to them than the reward. Anyway, this was a good conversation. I understand your point but I don't agree with you. But thank you! I like that we can all be civil about this. Let's just agree to disagree. 😊

[@gallery7596]

@@kathleenrasing6818 RE: "...most people were all making the same points of Jay had a choice regardless - so either majority are dumb, or what idk." A pretty good percentage of them are just uninformed. I have talked to a lot of these people and for quite some time now, and I tend to categorize them like this: *Team CoCo* who are totally opposed to the suggestion that the debacle was in anyway Conan's fault, and blame Jay almost entirely (when what happened was largely the network's doing). For them, it's still 2010, and they zealously hold onto their grudges, spending just about as much time hating Jay Leno as they do talking about how talented and funny Conan is. *Howard Stern fans* who think his rants against Jay are real, when it's almost certainly just for their entertainment. If you check out Howard as Jay's guest in the 90's on "The Tonight Show" and what he says about Jay getting the show, and then compare it to what he says to Dave during his last appearance on his *CBS* show, you can see how he contradicts himself. Howard's performances seem to rile up his fans against Jay, but he shouldn't be taken seriously. He's still just a shock jock by trade. *David Letterman,* who carried a resentment over being *NBC's* second choice to replace Carson, and admitted to lapsing into a protracted depression after Jay overtook him in the ratings. And despite Jay leaving him alone when he was going through the humiliation of his sex scandal, Dave unsparingly went after Jay just a few months later during The Tonight Show debacle. Even Doctor Phil one night said to him "I had no idea you have such pent up anger against Jay." And using his show as a platform to attack Jay seems to have affected his fans. The rest appear to be people just joining the pile on. My measure is this: if you have no idea who Jeff Zucker is, then it's unlikely you know enough about that debacle to be judging anybody who was involved. Just my opinion. RE: "You know who the common denominator is with the Letterman and O'Brien late night debacle? Not to mention the Carson thing... One man, Leno." What about *NBC?* Specifically, the president of the network, Robert Wright? He was in charge during all those affairs. He was even the one who decided to keep the deal to hire Jay as Carson's eventual replacement a secret so as not to annoy his personal friend, Johnny Carson. RE: "Letterman and Conan had the decency and integrity that when things didn't worked out, they do what's right." That, Kathleen, is open to debate. Have you ever asked yourself why *NBC" would prefer Jay enough to reject Dave as Carson's replacement? And do you really think Conan signing onto *NBC's* offer to drop Jay (who had been his supporter at the network when things were not looking good at the beginning of his "Late Night" days) was the decent thing to do? Conan couldn't have handled it a bit more compassionately? RE: "[Dave and Conan] know how to say No." Did you read where I mentioned that *NBC* wouldn't release Jay from his contract? Jay should've allowed himself to be sued for breach of contract by the network for Conan, the guy who took "TTS" from him when he didn't have to? RE: "But thank you! I like that we can all be civil about this." 😊 Thank you as well. I always enjoy a good debate.

[@jxalmada66]

There is a heavy darkness that surrounds Kimmel

[@GodIsFromHarlem]

Jimmy loves Howard Stern, and Howard hates Jay Leno.

[@joemckim1183]

In retrospect Conan should've just taken the 11:30e/10:30c timeslot on ABC.

[@bigoltits1880]

@@gallery7596 Or Option 3: you could just put yourself out of this no-life misery. There's always Option 3