Why Jon Snow's Targaryen Blood Won't Matter & The Importance of his Bastard Status | ASoIaF Theory

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

In the second half, I sound very rant-y. I try to keep calm if I read stuff that annoys me, but I don't think it worked here😂

[@billberndtson]

So what? Be passionate about things you're passionate about. 🙂

[@CatOfADifferentCoat]

Good, embrace your hatred! I mean, I still posit that "legitimate Targaryen Jon Snow" really doesn't need a more elaborate dismissal than "go back to the bad fanfic shadows you came from", but if one is to engage with it, than an annoyed and rant-y tone is clearly the natural one to take.

[@eric2500]

We listen for the sake of your opinions, it is fine.

[@KarlKarsnark]

...and that's why we love you. :)

[@Lawa_kun]

we like the rants

[@toxicat]

"i could name him Robb" hits me in the face every time

[@elisapiu3662]

This is the best take of Jon's character i've seen so far. Bravo!🎉

[@nikharagrawal5808]

On Jon's legitimization as a Stark being the direction the story might indeed take: This is hinted by the only other place (the first being Lyanna) where the blue winter rose is referred: the story of Bael the Bard and how he impregnated and returned the daughter of Brandon the Daughterless. The Stark line was facing the threat of extinction, and the daughter's bastard becomes the new Lord Stark. Thus, there is precedent for a Stark daughter's bastard becoming the new Lord Stark. There might be even more conclusions to draw from this parallel story, but they seem just at the edge of understanding right now. Also, great videos, so glad to have discovered your channel

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

So glad when I see more female fans and in general more people not dismissing the more progressive messages of the story! Have a nice day and thanks a lot for watching, glad you're enjoying the content❤️

[@gerrys374]

I love the theory videos, but you make some of the best character analysis videos I have seen, so of course I want an Arya, Brienne & Asha.

[@NotAnotherAccount735]

Second that!

[@ayanna6327]

@39:55 Thank you. It's hinted in the text that if anything, Rhaegar would've been hoping for a girl after Aegon's birth. In Daenerys' visions in the House of the Undying in A Clash of Kings she walks in on Rhaegar and Elia holding baby Aegon, Rhaegar locks eyes with Daenerys and says something like "there must be another" - alluding that he might have seen Daenerys' premonition or something and thought she was his future daughter. This aligns with the theory that Rhaegar was trying to aim for "reincarnating" the conquerors, as seen with him naming his kids Rhaenys and Aegon, the third he more than likely would've hoped, would've been a girl he could name Visenya. It would've also been the reverse birth order of the conquerors as well, with Rhaenys being the eldest, Aegon the middle again, and Visenya the youngest this time around.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

To be honest I am not 100% sure they were going to recreat the three heads at all. In Dany's vision, he talked to Daenerys when he said the bit about the three heads, not Elia, and called Aegon THE prince when he was talking with his wife, so we do not know if indeed at the time he believed about the three heads, most likely not. Maester Aemon understood about the three heads close to his death, meaning at the time they didn't have this idea since Aemon and Rhaegar were talking about the prophecy. Raeghar, to me, it looks like was thinking there is an heir, there is THE prince, I am gonna go with Lyanna now, or something.

[@eric2500]

I don't think GRRM believes in a super duper all rounder Fix Everything Messiah. But his characters do, specially the Targs.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Also Mel!

[@SingingSealRiana]

Exactly! Thats why Dany will fail and flawed quiter Jon gets closer to IT, but will still Not BE a classical Hero.

[@ladyvimto5546]

@@SingingSealRianayou are extremely wrong!

[@mattiaachille233]

@@SingingSealRiana You are EXTREMELY wrong. There is no time to care about the IT. Marwyn the Mage is about to tell Dany about the Others and she’ll have to settle her affairs in Essos before having the chance to sail for Westeros. She can’t just sail with tens of thousands of men and horses and women for months on end until she reaches Dragonstone or the Stepstones. She has to conquer and smash slavery in order to have the resources to sustain her army and reach Westeros.

[@CJusticeHappen21]

Man, this is such a good take. Btw, thanks for reminding me of what a great character Donal Noye was. Worthy of a song.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I know right? Donal was a gem and such an underrated side/minor character.

[@SingingSealRiana]

. . . I have to disagree, that with blodraven and jon, their tag blood does not matter, it does, it just does not overshadow their magical northern blood. Their mothers mattering does not mean their fathers do not, its not an either or thing, the whole point is, that it is not an either or thing.

[@thatoneblackdude3333]

Agreed I think the better idea is that Jon being a Targaryen doesn't define him or not make him less of a stark or that his Stark side as doesn't matter Jon is a stark and a Targaryen he isn't just one or the other .

[@thalljoben3551]

Kit Harrington is like Hayden Christian, hes a phenomenally astute and emotionally pitch perfect actor for the character they epitomized, ppl just dont want to like them.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Also, with how bland his dialogs were, how little dialog he had, and how butchered and removed his storyline was, Kit H. did his best. I don't think Anthony Hopkins could make Jon's scripts justice fr. With better writing, I think Kit would make a great Jon. Like, Hayden Christensen was actually pretty good as Anakin and a very good actor as the Revenge of the Sith proved. And again have people actually heard the stuff they made him say in Episode II?!

[@maggyfrog]

the one thing i didn't like in the show is how little they regarded ghost as far as jon's arc is concerned. but overall, kit still nailed the way jon grew up feeling unloved and lonely as a bastard yet still a good person the way ned tried his best to raise him under the loathing of catelyn. back in the early days of youtubers just starting to talk about GoT and asoiaf (around the time channels like ideas of ice and fire and GoT academy were just starting to get traction), i remember being amused that people didn't like kit harrington because of strange reasons like he's too handsome or he's not good enough for some viewers. i thought he did a good job and i genuinely still don't get the hate to this day 😹

[@Hannah_MusicBird]

I like the idea that they had a informal wedding but Westeros wouldn’t consider it legitimate due to his other wife he was still married to. So he’s still a bastard but also wiggle room for interpretation of characters. Similar to how Robert claim the throne as his grandmother was a targ. And not a usurper in the eyes of the faith of the seven.

[@Hannah_MusicBird]

He would still be a bastard of both house and have no real birth right

[@silverprincess2642]

I always liked the idea of him being a Targaryen but still being a Bastard. I just feel like it ruined the whole purpose of his storyline in the show(I never read the books). In the show I saw him as proof that Bastards can rise to make something of himself and breaks the stigma that "Bastards are treacherous by nature". Him being an actual trueborn in the show was just a huge character assassination for me.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Yes, the TV series just made everyone dirty, even the people they defiantly wanted to paint in the best light possible. I would say give the books a shot, it's worth it. The characters are much more complex and the storyline much better. Thanks for watching and thanks for the super Thanks!

[@TuathaTuna]

Precisely ❤

[@samiai8905]

Totally agree. People in-universe and out are so obsessed with blood purity and legitimacy that they completely ignore the point of Jon's story - that one's birth doesn't determine who someone is but their choices. The world is going to be saved by the very people the world looked down on for not fitting to their standards because they saw the beauty in it despite every horrible thing it threw at them - a foreign girl, a disabled man, and a bastard.

[@Lawa_kun]

This was fantastic we need more deepdives into the POV characters like this one !

[@CatOfADifferentCoat]

Ashara Dayne was an elephant, you heard it here first! She is across the narrow sea, hiding with the Golden Company, and will soon join the cause of her son, Aegon VI! There is so much evidence once you open your eyes! Everyone knows that Ashara was the (insert accurate description capturing the magnitude of "would make Barristan Selmy break his vows" but somehow without sounding extremely objectifying of women) in the realm, and we see how Cersei finally fully embraces her bisexuality by admitting that "she wanted those elephants"! And while everyone and their mother is still clinging to the tiniest hope of having a shot at sleeping with Ashara, we see how only Lord Wyman Manderly has fully come to accept that he doesn't stand a chance, saying it himself that he is too fat to ride an elephant!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Still better that Ashara = Lemore in my books

[@CatOfADifferentCoat]

@@CompanyOfTheCat why have Ashara = Lemore when the above opens the possibility for Ashara + Lemore 😂! Let love reign supreme!

[@ninacaracol]

it makes sense since grrm hides the fact that a lot of characters are animals in the story like tyrek being a horse

[@Aaronhoulston]

​@CompanyOfTheCat why are you so against Ashara =lemore? You know the whole Ashara lost a baby and jumped to her death BUT THE BODY WAS NEVER FOUND is a blatent THIS PERSON IS STILL ALIVE EVERYONE! from George? So who do you think Ashara is then? And if everyone in young griffs entourage is a person of importance which they seem to be then who do you think Lemore actually is you can't just say oh no sounds silly bit give no counter explanation for who you think she is.....

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

My problem with this theory is mostly because it is a "moving the goalpost" kind of theory. Is Ashara Jon's mom? Personally, I doubt it, everything inside the story shows that she isn't. From the timeline to the interaction between Ned and the rest of the Daynes. Is Ashara dead? I don't think so. Does that mean she is Lemore? Still no. Age and appearance do not fit for her to be Lemore. If we move to the shapeshifter/illusions plot to explain this we are again at a dead end because the crystals are removed multiple times so it's not illusions like Mel's, if she had a way to cover herself, the JonCon knows it since he is the one who thinks of her as Lady, why didn't he ask to cover YG and himself and use hair dyes that poorly camouflage them? As another commenter had aid in my Lemore video: "A big problem with that theory is that a few small tweaks from GRRM could've made it work great, but he didn't do that. Want to make Ashara a hidden identity character, but painted yourself in the corner by giving her really distinctive eyes? Not a problem - just have Lemore wear a veil that covers her eyes. Loads of female religious figures in asoiaf wear veils. But GRRM didn't do that. Or that crystal could be glamouring her. Just say that she wore the crystal even when bathing, and have a weird moment where her face looks Maynard Plumm-y: "Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder." (The Mystery Knight). But GRRM didn't do that. Or have Tyrion mistake her eyes for blue at first, just as he does with Aegon. In an early Tyrion chapter, say that Lemore and YG's eyes are the same shade of blue, then later with the reveal that YG=Aegon, this implies to the reader that Lemore's eyes are also secretly purple. But GRRM didn't do that." And they were correct, Grrm is great at presenting people very subtly but in this character, we do not see anything, so even when we try to desperately prove it, we have to move the goalpost to kinda make it work and it's not that it works that well either. It's also a theory that let's say it's true, completely undermines the writing of various characters, like Tyrion for example because we will have to accept, that either he saw purple eyes and he didn't say anything, bc we have line where he looks at her face and later her boobage, but says nothing about peculiar things, even though we know Tyrion is extremely quick and perspective. If the illusions bit is true, then JonCon, Varys, and Illyrio are kinda dumb, bc why not secure for YG to have a way of concealing himself? Why are the crystals removed every time she bathes? This is why I don't like it, it is a theory that is extremely popular, is catchy, and could work under MANY different routes, but it doesn't work because GRRM didn't take these routs.

[@eric2500]

I'd like the "not like other girls" girls video.

[@eric2500]

But they are "not like" in three different ways.

[@ghostlyapples]

Finally, a creator that understands the books AND critical analysis!!! I salute your intelligence

[@tereza1959]

Although Jon Snow is one of my favorite characters, i dont want him to become neither a Stark or a Targaryen, Jon is Jon, and represents a hopeful future for Westeros where your bloodline doesn't matter but who you are as a person

[@eric2500]

These couples are all legit in the setting *as far as age goes,* considering the setting in a medieval inspired fantasy world. In our world, NO. We are supposed to notice this and go "ew". Just like we are supposed to notice how children are worked and starved and bought and sold and exploited in every other way.

[@samiai8905]

While a lot of it is true, many medievalists have noted how that there is still parts that are unrealistic and completely on GRRM's parts - namely the child brides.

[@theduxabides9274]

5:19 I'd say it's more to do with how Jon is able to use the impending threat of the Others to take the edge off of some of the drastic decisions he makes. While his decisions re the Wildlings are largely commendable, actions like jailing Cregan Karstark and marrying Alys to Sigorn, thus interfering in Northern politics to the chagrin of the Boltons; supporting Mel's plan to have Mance freed to 'rescue Arya' which results in him going off script and raiding Winterfell; and then revealing the latter plan and his lying about the killing Mance to the watch, before ordering the Rangers to march towards an undead army led by one of their sworn enemies (Tormund) while Jon foreswears his vows and leads a Wildling army against the Boltons; are MASSIVE grey areas that Jon seems not to recognize as such.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Yeah, Jon does a Lot of Things that are questionable. The reason they do Not get Seen AS unheroic IS, while He does interfear with northern politics, He does it in No way in a Desiree to Garner Power, He helps the wildlings Out of humaniitarian thinking and IT should BE the right Thing to do morally, though He fails to communicate propperly what He does in a way that makes IT amandable to His fellow Brothers. And com on, No one can See Something despicable in wanting to save your beloved Baby sister, even If IT goes against the law . . . .thats No nailing people to crosses WHO might Not even Had Part in Something they get punished for without a Trial or burning WHO ever opposes you to defend their Home. But yeah, what He does IS often questionable, especially politically and before the law If one Takes away the justifing emotionsregulierung and inherent bias

[@jeannebouwman1970]

​@@SingingSealRianaI agree with you, but please use capital letters a bit less, using them this much distracts from your message a lot

[@KetilK]

I hold a different view regarding Jon's fate in the books. At the end of Jon's last PoV in A Dance with Dragons, he falls face-first into the snow and is still conscious and feeling the cold. While it's possible that he could succumb to his injuries afterwards, the chapter doesn't definitively state his death. There's no subsequent chapter referencing the event, leaving his fate uncertain until future books. Examining the description of the first knife wound, the language used-blood welling out under his fingers on the side of his neck-is reminiscent of relatively minor wounds in other instances in the series. This includes Varys testing the catspaw dagger and Tyrion checking for greyscale on his toes. The neck wound could reasonably be considered minor, involving a cut to the skin, the SCM muscle, and/or the exterior jugular vein. The belly wound is uncertain, presenting a wildcard in the equation. The wound on the shoulder blade appears relatively minor. Thus, we have two minor wounds and a wildcard to consider. I propose that Jon might have been knocked over, either by a person or his direwolf, potentially freed from the room he was in. Despite the presence of numerous people around him, instructing them to "form a line," there was a critical need for them to recognize the imminent danger to Jon amid the chaotic situation. The questions linger: How long would it take for someone to notice? How swiftly could they intervene? While three or four hits managed to land, it's conceivable that someone could have reached him before the fourth knife. The ambiguity remains regarding whether the fourth knife was directed at Jon, hit him, missed, or targeted his attackers.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

The thing with the death is pretty clear to me a at least, and mostly because of Mel's dream and the prologue. We have Mel see him in her flames with skulls around him, something she sees when people die and Then as man, then a wolf, then a man again. The scene is very similar to varamyrs prologue and his wolf one eye. We have so much set up in the book on what happens when skinchangers die, we have a conscious wight that was most likely a skinchnager and then Jon's assassination. I doubt all these are some nothing.

[@KetilK]

​@@CompanyOfTheCat The man/wolf/man indicate that he will consciously warg into A wolf, probably Ghost, not that he will die and resurrect. The skulls were all around him, but he wasn't a skull. The Varamyr's prologue is partly a warning against how Bran is ignoring the skin-changing rules, partly about how Jon has a strong gift, but hasn't trained it, and partly how a skin-changer can live on after death. The living after death is probably referring to how Coldhands came to be. I'm pretty sure Coldhands is a skin-changer spirit, who managed to skin-change into an ice-wight after his main body died, taking control of the body from whatever is normally controlling the wights. An important difference between Varamyr and Jon, is that Varamyr had a lot of experience with his skin-changing abilities, and he failed to get into Thistle's body. I think it is extremely unlikely that Jon, who has only warged into Ghost in dreams, and not consciously like Bran and Varamyr did, would be able to return to a human body if he dies now. Jon probably needs more experience with his abilities before dying to be able to return to being a man after death.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

@@KetilK Jon frequently enters a warg-like state with Ghost without realizing it (for example, in A Storm of Swords when Ghost returned). Here is a very specific situation: Mel sees skulls, and then the Man-wolf-man appears only when the skulls are involved. There's a very specific setup about death and skinchangers in two different parts of this book. It would be somewhat random considering that all prologues are setups for something, even if they appear random, they are not. I think it would be kinda cheap to have Jon survive four wounds, especially when he began losing enough blood from the first one. If Jon didn’t die, I hope they have a solution involving magical healing, because then they would face a much more challenging situation-his wounds were not as minor as some people suggest. So, dying and resurrecting might actually be an easier and quicker solution. First Wound: ... away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife just enough so it barely grazed his skin. 'He cut me.' When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. The knife is described as barely grazing him after he pushed it, so it was not minor, and blood started flowing fairly quickly. Second Wound: Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. [...] Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard. He pushed him, but he was wounded once again, with his fingers starting to grow stiff (something we have seen again in Dunk & Egg before Baelor died), meaning he had started to lose a significant amount of blood. Third Wound: He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. The third one, even with modern medicine and quick reaction, can be a deadly wound, and Jon removed the knife, meaning he has already started losing minute after minute because there is nothing stopping blood loss. Fourth Wound: When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold... Another serious wound that, by modern standards, is dire, and Jon is already in a very precarious situation regarding his injuries. Fifth Wound: There was another blade; we do not know where, and we do not know if they would stop after this one either, but making sure he is dead, I think, is something they would do to be sure.

[@KetilK]

@@CompanyOfTheCat When the fandom proposes that Jon has to resurrect and explain how it will happen, it feels cheap, and all the consequences that seem reasonable would be achievable by just inflicting some wounds, and letting him recover from those. An attack from his brothers, where he think he should feel safe, even if he was warned about the daggers in the dark, would probably be able to give him PTSD and change him a lot. The changes that happens to someone who dies, and later resurrects isn't required to change him. GRRM can probably pull off a resurrection if he wants, but Jon surviving his wounds has more compelling evidence to me than him dying and resurrecting. ---- There is no reason to suspect that the first dagger hit him until it barely grazed his skin. He noticed the danger and had to react immediately to avoid a severe wound, and given that it only barely grazed his skin, it seems like he succeeded. A knife barely grazing his skin is compatible with blood welling up between his fingers, but in a way that probably isn't fatal. The second attack from Wick doesn't seem like it wounded him at all, unless he wounded himself while forcing him to drop the knife. The stiff fingers don't necessarily indicate a wound, or blood loss, but could just be that he tried to rush the attempt to get the sword too much, and didn't stay in control. Rushing make you clumsy if your instincts aren't good enough to overrule your hasty attempt and Jon is quite young, and probably didn't hone his abilities to be ready for battle in 1 second yet. And wasn't his sword hand, the same as the one that was burned when saving Jeor from the wight too? Him falling down on his needs might very well indicate pain, or a blunt force to a specific area. Severe bleeding isn't the only, or necessarily the most likely explanation. And I maintain my position that a lot of people were coming to handle the situation with Wun-wun. Some of them would want to intervene as soon as they noticed the assassination attempt, although most of them were probably too far away to be able to make an impact. Still, it's not unreasonable for one or two of them would be able to intervene around the time when Jon fell over. Not being attacked themselves, yet, would make it easier for them to prepare for a proper technique, rather than focusing on just staying alive in the heat of the moment.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

@@KetilK The two stab wounds ARE serious though, and the fourth one we never learn where, but it did happen. Stab wounds in the stomach are very dangerous even today, the blade was buried in him, this is the word used, it was not just a scratch. Stabs through the stomach can injure the small bowel, the large bowel, the liver, the intra-abdominal vascular and high-energy wounds cause unpredictable injuries, and this one is described as a punch and was also from a close distance, meaning it was a very good stab. The other on the back again was very much strong, because he was in a lot of pain and fell down. The three first attacks which are very serious, were with a knife, but the one at the back we don't know, there was havoc there, did everyone have a knife no one had drawn a sword? Jon thinks I never felt the fourth knife, but he never felt it and the one at the back is described as a blade and was also not visible to him, are we sure it was a knife? Even if he is not dead, the wounds are not gonna be treated in 2 months, especially in the situation and era they are in. It is the same situation with all the Quentyn and Loras theories, the wounds are always way too serious, if they are not dead, still in big trouble, if not bigger considering what is going on and the era.

[@astrinymris9953]

I think there's an inconsistency here. If it shouldn't matter if Jon is a bastard or not, then it shouldn't matter if Jon isn't a bastard. My headcanon is that Rhaegar targeted Lyanna because of the prophecy, wanting a "third head of the dragon" born from the intermingling of Stark and Targaryen blood. In Dany's vision, Rhaegar seems to identify Elia's son Aegon as Azor Ahai, but he might have changed his mind later. I mean, Rhaegar once thought he himself was Azor Ahai and later changed his mind. Who's to say that he hadn't changed his mind later? As to whether Rhaegar legally married her or not... well, Lyanna was at most fifteen when she met Rhaegar, so she might have believed that Rhaegar could polygamously marry her in front of a heart tree, and it would count as a legal marriage. I truly believe that Rhaegar seduced her as much with the promise of an Epic Destiny as with sexual attraction. Rhaegar: "Have sex with me, and save the world! And as a bonus, avoid marrying your brother's crude and boorish friend!" Lyanna: "Deal!"

[@samiai8905]

"If it shouldn't matter if Jon is a bastard or not, then it shouldn't matter if Jon isn't a bastard." I think things are getting mixed up here. The theme is that it shouldn't matter if one isn't a bastard because the origin doesn't determine who someone is, it is just one of many elements that shape them. Jon being a bastard is important for that theme to work since it shows that him being a bastard and dealing with all the stigma associated with it didn't stop him from trying to be a good person. Jon is still going to be a bastard regardless - Lyanna wasn't married and Rhaegar was and it can't just be set aside which the show stupidly did. I also think that it was prophecy that drove him to target Lyanna (even with all the ickiness with age gaps in GRRM's world, I think he genuinely sought to deconstruct the romanticism of medieval love stories by making that age gap so huge) and it is something that will be a huge hurdle for Jon to deal with as in his mind, his mother and thousands died for him, and once again Jon is being forced with expectations of who he is because of how he was born. He's going to help save the world because he genuinely believes it's the right thing to do, not because he has to prove himself as a bastard and certainly not because a prophecy said he has to.

[@eric2500]

Not sure if I agree if it turns out that Jon has married parents, he grew up as a bastard, his self image is set. (And there is no convincing the people of this society that bastards are not awful, just because no wedding. Tyrion saves KL from Stannis, Jon saves the kingdom from the Others, I think we are supposed to appreciate the irony of them getting no appreciation from the other people in the story,)

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I do agree with the irony bit a lot! But hits badly (at least to me), even if no one learns that Jon isn't a bastard to have the only hero who is a bastard and is morally good, is true, is everything he strives to be only for him to be a prince in the end. It is just icky, it doesn't have to do with the people inside the story as much as the general moral of his story.

[@jayteeblues]

Jon is a perfect hero character, you are right. I think that you’re right around him being a Bastard is central to his character because of how this identity is part of his arc. It works because his arc is about assimilating all parts of his identities: Bastard (Snow), Leanna/Eddard (STARK), and Rhaegar (Targaryen). His lessons around leadership and his ability and willingness to step into it is related to his Targaryen-ness. Being a responsible and good “King”/Leader is the spirit of how Rhegar wanted to rule and how everyone thought he would had he supplanted his father, the Mad King. The fairness, faithfulness, nobleness is his Stark side. His willingness to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves, is a spiritual reference to the spirit and personality of his mother (Leanna) and for Ned. Clearly Jon is highly influenced by Ned’s personality, it’s often referenced by others referring to him and “Ned Starks bastard”. Neds nobility and honor is not tied to “bastard” in a bad way where Jon is concerned. His ability to be inclusive of those in “lesser” status, or those born disadvantaged, his love for outcasts is in complete line with his identity as SNOW. His ability to assimilate and get comfortable in all of these parts of his character is what makes him such a good hero.

[@DiegoFernandesLima]

I don't know if most of these characteristics have to do with him being Stark and having learned from Ned. He starts out being quite an idiot with the other recruits, it's only there on the Night's Watch, with Donal Noye and Tyrion, that he learns to value those who were born beneath him. And his time with the Free Folk also helped him realize that not all the stories and songs that he likes so much and delude himself about are real. Regarding leadership and personality, I think he must have learned something from Ned, but he must have some biological inheritance of Rhaeger's personality (if he really is his son) and he must have learned a lot from Cat and Tyrion during the time they were together. Rheagar, Cat and Tyrion are 3 characters who are described as having a great capacity for leadership, diplomacy and who are willing to make difficult decisions. And even Jon's notion of honor must have come much more from Rhaeger and Cat than from Ned or his Stark biological inheritance. As for Ned, as good a leader as he was, he never made the difficult decisions that would have kept him and his family safe and he also didn't strike me as someone who was very diplomatic with people he didn't know. He also in many moments places himself as much better than everyone around him, something I don't remember Jon doing after he matured and Ned's pride is one of the things that kills him, since he wanted to be better than his enemies. As for Jon, he realizes that the Free Folk are much more alike, especially with the North, and with the rest os Westeros than the stories and myths tell and sees them as equals and tries to save everyone. In the end, I think the more he got away from the Starks, the more he grew as a person and became the leader that was needed where he was and learned a lot more from people without the last name Stark.

[@mattiaachille233]

You’re tripping balls. The more he got away from the Starks, the more Jon became like Aegon V. Living with the wildlings made him support them and try to integrate them back in the Seven Kingdoms. That’s something the Starks haven’t done for thousands of years and Ned would NOT have given a fuck about wildlings unless he lived alongside them like Jon did. Eddard made the smallfolk feel safe but he was never their champion. He gave no fucks about Arya’s friend. The Starks are not the heroes you make them out to be. Eddard was not a bad man but he was an entitled noble just like everyone else. Arya is the one who made friends with the smallfolk and wants to defend their rights. Just like Lyanna was doing with Howland Reed in Harrenal. Don’t misunderstand the characters. Many Targ kings were champions of the smallfolk. Starks have a dark history just like Targs and Valyrians do.

[@user-eo2md6gu8m]

@@mattiaachille233 I 100% agree with you. This fandom fell for the anti-Targaryen propaganda. Or they just hated Dany, so they hate the Targaryens. This is probably why most in this fandom did not like the addition of Aegon's prophecy in House of the Dragon. Even though there are many hints there was more to the conquest than just power. They just ignored it because it didn't suit their headcanon. It's interesting how GRRM introduces us to both Houses through the POV of the Starks. In the beginning, the Targaryens seem to be the story's villains, while the Starks are portrayed as the heroes. However, as the story unfolds, we learn that despite their faults and inner conflicts, the Targaryens did a lot of good for the realm and many were champions of the small folk. They enacted many laws that benefited both the common people and the nobility. In contrast, it becomes apparent that the ancient Starks were the real villains. They established a system that allowed only them to benefit at the expense of their people. For instance, the small folk, like Gared (the deserter Ned killed), are sentenced to the Wall for hunting food for their families during winter, which is illegal. He becomes traumatized after encountering the Others and flees south to warn his family. Instead of listening, Ned beheads him because that is their law. It's a deeply flawed system the ancient Starks have set up. I wouldn't be surprised if they have the blood of the Others too. This is a great plot twist and one that I think most of the fandom is not prepared for. In addition, Jon and Dany are both challenging the legacies of their ancient ancestors. Jon defies the Starks by recognizing the Freefolk as people and allowing them to pass through the Wall. Meanwhile, Dany opposes the traditions of Old Valyria by treating slaves as individuals deserving of protection. In a way, they embody the legacy of Aegon V.

[@Ava-xf7fb]

Yes to the video idea of why Brienne, Arya, etc are not nlogs.

[@Ilargizuri]

🤣 You made my Day or Night, Ashara was an Elephant. Thank you for that, I had a shitty Sunday for most of it but the Evening and later this Video brightened it, Thank you, you can rant as much as you want if it brings out such outbursts that cheer me up. First about your Question: YES do that Video, Brienne, Arya and Asha, make the Video as to why they are your Favourites. And thank you for this Video, Best Video so far about this Character and his Character Assassination. As you know, I think Jon isn't dead, not because GRRM said so, although it does give my ideas credit and most of the time I use it as an Argument, but because his Story is not over and he still has to learn who his Mother was, etc. I hope Jon is another Bran Situation, there are enough People at the Wall who could take care of him. With Robb his Story was over, he did some stupid Moves and lost the War and all that was left to happen was for him actually to lose the War. Also, there is nobody who knows that Robb Legitimized Jon as a Stark in his Will, except for the People who were sent away by Robb who still are somewhere in the Swamps in the Neck, hiding with the only other person who knows that Jon is Lyannas Son. So I hope Jon isn't dead, just unconscious and in a Coma, sometimes I even think Bloodraven chose Bran to call to him because he was an easy target and he foresaw what could happen to Jon at the Wall and decided that he needed a sacrifice ready to revive Jon if necessary. Many think Melissandre will resurrect him with the Red God, but I don't think that will happen, Melissandre and Shireen will be important to Stannis's Storyline and Stannis will choose to kill his only Child. Some People think that Bloodraven will be important for Jon's resurrection, and I think that makes more sense, but more in the same way he did with Bran. So Jon is not Dead, he is unconscious and he will survive with BRAN's Help because Bran will defeat Bloodraven, who chose him as a Sacrifice and instead Bloodraven will be the Sacrifice. But Jon won't be resurrected like Coldhands or Lady Stoneheart, but like Bran, who was kept alive until his Body healed enough to wake up again. Bran was also changed after his fall, but he was alive. Jon will also be changed, but alive, not like Coldhands and Stoneheart who are practically fire zombies. You probably think I am a romancer who has no textual evidence that this will happen. And you are right, Jon will most likely come back as a new Coldhands or Beric Dondarrion, but I hope GRRM doesn't do it this time, I hope Arya sees her Brother again, changed, but alive. I hope Sansa who was so typical for her status to him, gets a second chance to be better and get to know him. I hope Rikkon gets some Family back after losing so much and becoming an Orphan. Also didn't see Mel Bloodraven in her Vision? The one where she saw Jon as a Man, then a Wolf, then a Man again? At least that could be a hint that truly Bloodraven is the one who is involved with Jon being saved. I hope you don't think less of me because that's what I think, unfortunately, I have a lot of bad experiences when it comes to my ideas, most People belittle me and tell me: You didn't read the Books! There is nothing that supports your ideas. I did read the Books maybe not a thousand times like other People and my interpretation is definitely unique. What me angers the most in the TV adaptation is: That the Wall still stands. For Heaven's sake, kill Jon, kill Arya, kill everybody in that damn Story, but please destroy the Wall! That thing brings nothing good to the Story only diversion and destruction and Problems. Destroy that cursed Ice Wall! Annihilate the whole Stark Family if that is necessary to destroy that thing, but destroy the Wall. Please GRRM just destroy that thing!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

The wall will fall I think GRRM will hear you I believe, I mean dragons cannot pass, sooo... It must fall😂

[@Ilargizuri]

@@CompanyOfTheCat Hopefully, I am from Germany and I am old enough to have been somehow traumatized by a Wall. I didn't live anywhere near that thing, we just visited our Eastern Relatives, but a small child does realize when grown-ups are terrified and fear something and I did realize that our Relatives in Eastern Germany were scared about the Wall and the People who guarded it. That does make a Child feel unsafe, especially in very early years and can have an effect on you.

[@KarlKarsnark]

Ashara Dayne is an elephant: Confirmed! (I knew it all along!)

[@ladyvimto5546]

Sweet sweet sweet reason! Your analysis is brilliant and so deeply rooted in the text! You really elevate the fandom with your intelligence! We are so lucky to have you❤

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Thank you so much❤️ You made me giggle😳😂

[@fayperce]

Give us the Arya video!

[@ninacaracol]

pleease an arya video would be great! she's one of my favorite characters and i'm curious to see where her story is going (will she meet stoneheart?go back to harrenhal/the riverlands? what will be her reaction seeing jon again? how will she leave the faceless men?)

[@eric2500]

You have nailed it. ASIOF is FULL of missing mothers, as far apart as Gendry and Cersei and Jon and Edric Storm and poor Arya.

[@Alex99AnimeFreak4eve]

YES, thank you for putting into words whats pissed me off about that Jon is the HEIR decision in its essence (other than how tf would rhaegar divorce elia, why does it even matter at this point in the story of the show etc) - it was that they completely destroyed his whole ARC. So thank you again! Btw I so would love to hear your opinion on Arya, Brienne and Asha, I don't think people talk about them enough :D

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

"Btw I so would love to hear your opinion on Arya, Brienne and Asha, I don't think people talk about them enough :D" I know right? Especially Asha! Glad you liked the vid❤️

[@Alex99AnimeFreak4eve]

Especially with the show portrayal of all three of them being stuck in people's minds! In the books their POV chapters are so so good @@CompanyOfTheCat

[@euCelsoX]

Jon is only a trueborn Targaryen in the show bc the writers needed to make Daenerys mad and by making Jon the “true” heir they would’ve accomplish that.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

pretty much

[@steventopia]

I think I agree with absolutely everything you say here, except for the conclusion. A better version of the show's ending, where Jon gets everything and more that his younger self wants and quietly rejects it / accepts that it's irrelevant seems like a really good potential ending to the character, and consistent with themes in other parts of the story (and other GRRM stories). He's not going to learn that he's the true born Targarian heir and try to become king. He's going to learn that he's the true born Targarian heir and, in spite of that, choose to continue to be a Snow and a bastard and a member of the Night's Watch.

[@steventopia]

I'm imagining basically a flip of The Way of Cross and Dragon. The way you tell the story about political power coming from collective myth instead of magical bloodlines is by giving him the magical blood line, while putting him as far away from political power as possible.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

That I can see, but still I think that the more important thing for him and his real parents will be mostly about Lyanna and even Ned, considering that Jon will realize that the person who thought his father sacrificed the most important thing to him, his honor to protect him and the honor of his mother.

[@AlinuraTaskali-f2e]

Jon isnt true born heir he still will be bastard but Rhaegar's bastard son.

[@maggyfrog]

especially after jon gets resurrected, melissandre will realize that she was reading the flames wrong the entire time and that jon is (or part of) the prince who was promised and will urge jon to dedicate himself to fighting the others. jon will likely embrace this because i don't see him questioning it given that he is going to be revealed to be important enough to be brought back to life. that, and also bran will probably confirm this and reveal his parentage to him in a vision or a wolf dream. he'll finally have closure regarding his bastard upbringing and find the inner peace he was always yearning for when he gets told that he was born to be exactly at the wall where he is needed the most. he'll accept being a crow as his final form, not because he was raised a bastard but because he will simply come to terms that he doesn't need the legitimacy all along to find that validation and purpose of being jon snow.

[@reddest-x]

I think the magic bloodlines are more important to Jon's story than his Targ legitimacy.

[@SiMacKenzieWorkshop]

Good video, appreciate the rant aspects. Surely his Targ blood is just convenient for getting him on the back of a dragon at some point? Him being dead also surely puts paid to the idea of him and Dani getting it on and having a kid, as I've heard people theorise. Bit of a problem with that, er ... practically, what with his blood no longer flowing. Kind of important.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Yeah, with as many knife stubs there is no way he isn't dead. Plus, Mel saw him with the skulls, and as a man, then a wolf then a man again, his body did die. Now how he will return is a big question, but I doubt will be in a completely normal state.

[@elisapiu3662]

If he's resurrected thanks to Malisandre like many believes (me included)...he'll be similar to Lady Stoneheart, i think. Maybe less cruel or more wild since he warged inside Ghost more than one time. It will be interesting if he meets Catelyn along the way... to see if their dymanic will change esponentially now that they have enemies in common.

[@thekrakensdaughter]

@@elisapiu3662 daenerys also died in her final pov in AGOT, the reason she will find truth in asshai is because the asshai people would be able to recognize a ressurected person if they ever saw one

[@pumas2342]

​​​@@elisapiu3662i think she would hate him more than before considering that for her he's the last surviving son of ned and more so if jon becomes king in the north, stealing the rights of her children

[@elisapiu3662]

@@pumas2342 probably... but she thinks Sansa is the only one alive and Jon may save her if he's the only surviving male child of Ned. Not to mention Robb last will to legitimize his brother to not let the Lannister have a claim on Winterfell. Sansa is still married to Tyrion, even Catelyn is forced to admit this fact with Robb... she doesn't like it but it's still the truth. Sansa comes after Jon if he's legitimate by the King in any case; in the North men have the priority over women. And if he wins back their home it's only a point in his favor.

[@aaronabarca4919]

Fantastic video, there are a lot of theory videos about Jon but your deepdive about him is unique and welcomed!

[@OfAshesPhoenix]

Oh, Jawn slander, I manifested this 😈 But jokes aside, my resentement towards Jon (who used to be my second favorite character, no less) came precisely from how much the fandom wants to mold him into that perfect fantasy hero and it ends up ruining the entire story. I suppose that not every character could be super subversive, but this making him the center of the universe, the perfect secret heir to the throne, Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised, Aegon the Conqueror reborn, rider of all three dragons, your mom's boyfriend from the 80s that she still talks about when she drank too much wine etc etc etc, in addition to making him a total Mary Sue, causes every other character to become entirely subservient towards him and his story. This is especially visible with Daenerys. Daenerys, sold into bridal slavery, overcomes a wish to literally off herself after being r*ped by her husband every night, losing everyone close to her, but then regaining hope after walking into the pyre, surviving and walking out with three dragons, fulfilling a prophecy non-literally before we even know about it and before she even knows about it... is always made into Jon's stepping stone in those "Jon is the center of the universe" predictions. Every single prediction ends up reinforcing this idea. In the mad kween variant, he kills her like a rabid dog so that his path to the throne is clear. In the "she is his Nissa Nissa" variant, he forges a magical sword using her disposable body, her death is made ABOUT HIM and it's FOR HIM, for his heroship. And in all of those, somehow he usually ends up with her armies, her dragons, her claim to the throne, the title of the lat Targaryen, basically everything that she accumulated herself. She provides everything for him and is given nothing in return, swiftly removed so that he saves the day and is that perfect hero and secret heir to the throne. Maybe this is why, over the years, I also started resenting Jonerys as a ship. The only way I could accept it is if Jon publicly denounced his claim and steadfastily positioned himself as nothing but Dany's consort and her number one supporter and simp. God knows that lords of Westeros would probably prefer a bastard over a woman anyway, so he needs to be VERY CLEAR about it. Also, as someone who at this point openly dislikes Jon, I do feel bad for him, because he - or rather, the weird amalgamation of his show self and book self, all these "perfect fantasy hero" ideas about him etc - attracts all sorts of weird incels and reactionaries who seem to like him solely on the basis of his potential to be a self-insert for them, who gets everything they want, including a beautiful girl he can fuck and then kill when she starts demanding to much. Jon, who saved a girl from a forced marriage, would hate these incels with a passion. But I should probably not expect too much of people who disparage and dehumanize Jace, Luke and Joff because their parents were unmarried... I hate it here.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I don't know why but Jawn looks HILARIOUS to me😂 "Daenerys, sold into bridal slavery, overcomes a wish to literally off herself after being r*ped by her husband every night...so he needs to be VERY CLEAR about it." These types of theories are ones that not only I find irritating, problematic, and everything in between, but I also highly believe destroy both of their characters, not only completely dismiss Daenerys, the person who brought freaking dragons back, and is trying to abolish one of the worst institutions known to man. They completely destroy Jon's character too, because then Jon is completely useless in the story without Daenerys. I also don't think they would be the case either mostly because 1) GRRM said not everyone who died in the series will die in the books, considering that only Dany died what I get from this statement is that Dany will live 😂 2) I doubt Daenerys will stay in Westeros after everything, I think she will return back to Essos in Vaes Tolorro and the other Qaathi cities. 3) JON IS DEAD 😂. What are we talking about? If he returns back as a wight with conscience, he will still be dead. Mel saw him as a man then a wolf, then a man again, it is heavily implied that his body indeed died. Plus, as someone who is basic af and my favorite characters are 4/5 main ones I don't like these theories because I am biased, sue me🙂

[@SingingSealRiana]

I Always hated the ship cause IT was Just randomly smooshing togeather the Poster children of the Franchise without any Rhyme or reason for fabioulesness Points . . . .eww No thanks. I am a Believer of the Dany will Fall theory Long before the series got anywhere near Close the Mad Queen arc, cause comparing Jon and her circumstances, she IS so badly Set Up to fail and ill suited to rule. Dany and Jon are opposite sides of a coin in a way, extreamly similar in Nature and what they really want, but every Others influence could Not seperate them more. Their deepest longing ist belonging. Jons Wish for a Family He feels guilty over and her dream of her childhoods Home with a Red door (and No responsability!). Both are protectiv, caring and hate Injustice. But Jon IS never truely alone! He IS looked down upon AS a bastard, which keeps him from ideas of grandour, and resented by Cat, but He IS cared for by Ned and deeply Loved by Robb and even more Arya. That balanced IT Out and keeps him from harboring resentment. He feinds Friends easely even after some struggles to fit in at the beginning and He Always has good teachers around. Ned, Tyrion, noye, Sam, aemon, jeor, ygritte, Mace and Thormund, he Always finds someone that teachers him whatever He needs to learn which in Turn helps him with finding Friends everywhere. He IS never truely alone. Dany on the Others Hand IS pretty much never anything but alone. Her only Person to Look Up to IS fucking viserys and whatever He tells her of her glorious.(murderous) Family. The Moment she actually developes a relationship with drogo He gets taken from her, the women around her are slaves or at least servents so there IS No equal footing to really BE Friends either way, whatever they understanding the difference between being a servent and a slave or Not. People do Not Like her, they revear her, she IS a Symbol to them, Not a Person, or Something to fear or manipulate. Everyone around her has an Agenda or IS under her Power. After having Had so little Agency in the beginning, she revels in Power, understandable, but Dangerous. She buys into the delusion of her own specialness AS a coping Mechanism to get through hardship and IT ever becomes more problematic. What makes IT all worse IS, that she Not only does Not has real emotional Support, she also does Not have teachers but people WHO manipulate her and Feed into the Believer, that she can only ever Trust herself and the Power her dragons grant. Mirri Held an importent lesson for her, that she did Not learn and that will Break her nack in Westeros. If she wants to BE Seen AS a savior and good ruler, she has to think of those peoples interest instead of relying in her showing Up and having dragons doing IT for her. I am pretty Sure mirri did Not poison drogo, He repidietly did Not follows her instructions AS a healer, so why would IT BE her doing? Same with danys Baby, she was Not supposed to enter the tent!!!! I Believer mirri falsly confessed knowing she was dead anyway, for she could Not pretend she was all to sad about the Outcome, cause IT allowed her to Tell Dany the very importent facts, that while she thinks she saved them, she did Not, and that what she Sees AS a Prophecy of glory for her child means a Nightmare of Horror and subjigation tonmirris people! Mirri used her Last breatb for an importent lesson Dany, given they circumstances understandably, failed to learn. If she wants to Help people, she has to know them, really know what they want and need and Not Just assume. She has to prove she acts in their interest and cultivate good faoth instead of Just showing Up and doing superficially whatever she thinks IS right. She has to Change perspective and get how they See her and how she can influence that . . . .for Westeros she will BE a foraign invader leading barbarians willing to nuke the people she Claims she wants to save . . .thats Not a great Image!!! Furthermore her experience taught her paranoia and she Lacks a propperly surface for selfreflection for everyone WHO could correct her selfimage either has an Agenda, or buys into her being a Messiah. All in all I do Not See how she could get Out of that without a brutal wake Up call

[@OfAshesPhoenix]

@@SingingSealRiana don't piss me off

[@ladyvimto5546]

@@SingingSealRianayou have not read a single page of her chapters and it shows!

[@jclaburn]

Good points. Still, I tend to think that all three of the “brothers” at the beginning are the opposite of what they think they are: Robb Start is really Brandon’s Bastard, his having slept with Cat prior to going to confront Rhaegar in King’s Landing. It’s why the Tully’s had to rush so much to marry Ned to Cat. Theon is really Euron Greyjoy’s bastard, Euron having seduced or forced himself on Balon’s wife the same as he did to Victarion’s wife later. And Jon’s parents did get married in their own ceremony and their own eyes, however, as far as the Church of the Seven is concerned, he is still a bastard bc Rhaegar did not divorce Elia. He followed the ancient Targaryen custom of taking two wives, so it’s up how much one supports Targaryen tradition whether Jon is a bastard or not. In the end, it’s not supposed to matter whether legally they were bastards or not. The important points are how others treated them, how what they thought they were influenced their self perception, and the fact that in personality Robb does tend to take after his father Brandon, Theon after Euron, and Jon after Rhaegar.

[@maggyfrog]

robb is not brandon's secret child. if that were true, catelyn would have had internal monologues that might suggest so, but there is zero hints of that in her own chapters. besides, the whole point of her hating jon makes no sense if robb is secretly a bastard. if anything, she would have been kinder to jon if she has secretly guilty of having her own bastard. her last internal monologue as catelyn stark during the red wedding included how sorry she was that she was so mean to jon his entire life for being a bastard which wasn't his fault. if there is even any truth to your theory that robb is secretly brandon's child, catelyn should have had the confession of this as part of her last monologue before she was ended. this theory that robb is a bastard makes zero sense given that she never once thought about it throughout the book.

[@OldSchoolSoundscape]

im binging your channel and your insights are sticking with me; thx for the vids 🤝

[@varjagen4160]

Have to agree with all of this really. Nice video!

[@carolinamartins4439]

Omg! I NEED the video about Arya, Brienne and Asha!

[@theelectricprince8231]

12:26 not a balanced comparison, Jon had many family members who loved him and were there for him while Tyrion had a father and sister who hated him, the only positive constant in Tyrion's life was Jamie. What broke Tyrion in book 3 (after reading it) was not Shae's betrayal, the trial, or his father sentencing him to death, it was Jamie's confession. People seem to think Tyrion's dark state of mind in book 5 has to do with the trial but after reading the 3rd book Tyrion's state of mind was still sound, even as we was waiting to be executed and he was grateful for Jamie saving him. Jamie's confession about Tysha is what broke him, not because he believed a lie about Tysha but because the one positive constant in his life, the one person he believed would be there for him, lied and betrayed him. Jamie's affection was a foundation for his being we often overlook and Tyrion believing he never even had it in the first place destroyed him. The key difference between Jon and Tyrion is that (even if he believes all of them to be dead) Jon had a family who loved him and was there for him, Tyrion never had that. And even still, Tyrion is still not the monster he wishes he could be.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I didn't say that they had the exact same journey because no one has, I said that yes, Jon could have gone down a Tyrion path.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Also, Tyrion IS way older and fighting for any scraps of recognition way Harder. Jon gets looked down upon AS a bastard by some, but He Always finds Friends wherever He goes after some struggles at the beginning, He Always gets recognition from someone, Tyrion on the Others Hand . . . Yeah, He Just gets fucked over at every turn

[@theelectricprince8231]

@@SingingSealRiana Podrick likes him. The more noble characters seem to like him also. People like Jon, Garland, Balon Swan etc but Tyrion has a bad reputation preceeding him because he is a dwarf due to ignorant stereotypes. Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock but is treated like crap

[@fightingmedialounge519]

​@@theelectricprince8231 he also had a bad reputation thanks to some actions he's taken.

[@theelectricprince8231]

​@@fightingmedialounge519 What did he do before the end of book 3 that got him a bad rep?

[@DabroodThompson]

Every time I read or hear the story of Jon being called a bully by the armorer I think of how good of a person Jon is. Do you think the armorer has had similar conversations about mentality and self betterment with some of the other reprobates at the wall? I doubt it, and if he did I doubt it would sway their behavior. The conversation is poignant and it helps Jon become a better person and leader, but it only works because Jon was already better than (most of) his brothers at the wall.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Yeah, the fact that Jon was raised by a better lord than most, thus he was a much better person, along with the fact that he already had a lower self-esteem, bc of his status made, for sure, Noye's job easier. I am not sure if he had made this conversation before, but to be fair I doubt he would try if Jon was indeed a highborn lord, I mean Royce was arrogant and smug just right. Also, Donnal was at Storm's End, he knew his fair share of a*holes, if he believed Jon wasn't worth it he would just leave him like that and people would probably have tried to kill him or beat him up.

[@yggdrasil2]

Would definitely like to see your take on Arya, Brienne and Asha!

[@bobshoby]

Bizarre to read in the comments how many people think character traits are genetically hereditary. Yes clearly Jon isn't a targaryen since he doesn't particularly act like or think about his relationship to them. It's almost like his lived experience of being raised as Ned's son impacted him more than his cellular makeup 😮.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Le shock 😂

[@BeteBlanc]

Awesome vid. Your reasoning as to why Jon has to be and remain a bastard are impeccable. I just wish people like yourself could see why the same logic means he shouldn't have Targ blood at all. It's not just irrelevant, it's counterintuitive (mostly because if there is an absence of male Targ heirs there would be an effort by some to argue for it, just like Daemon Blackfyre). He needs to be full Stark with no right to the name. The show and the desire for him to be completely blinds people from seeing and taking that last step. Your analysis and argument is perfect. I just wish I had to opportunity to prove why he has no Targ blood.

[@m4eou]

Well, i totaly agree with most of the points you made, i felt like that wedding was losing the hole bastard point of 5 books or 7 seasons but now with the new calendar of asoiaf commissioned by George with the first green weirwood we see, i think that maybe a ritual in the gods eye in front of the last uncorrupted weirwood could mean something else that even if in my opinion diminishes the fact of Jon being a bastard, he lived his hole life being one, like Egg pretend to be smallfolk and because of that reason being a better king.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I think the weirwood might be at the turney tbh or something and at that point, they look way too chill at this scene, idk.

[@charlinethom1624]

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna were married but not as it was presented in Show. I think it will bear out that Rhaegar was married to Lyanna and Elia polygamously, not that he annulled his marriage to Elia to marry Lyanna. Targaryen polygamy is pretty well-telegraphed in the books, whereas I don’t think the show ever mentioned it. GRRM also introduced the Doctrine of Exceptionalism from Jaehaerys I’s era, which, although used at the time to argue in favor of Targaryen incest, could also in theory be used to defend polygamy. (If it can’t be used to defend more than one thing, then what good is it?) The evidence in general also points to Jon being legitimate: 1)The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy are still there when Ned shows up even though they know at that point how the war’s gone, and are adamant that they’re there as Kingsguard. That only makes sense if they know Jon’s legitimate; if he isn’t, then Viserys is king and they’d’ve gone to him instead. 2)GRRM uses extensive wordplay and in-jokes where Jon is concerned that only make sense if he’s actually legitimate (e.g. bastards can’t hit princes, so Jon can’t spar with Joffrey; it works as a joke because Joffrey is a bastard and Jon is a prince). 3)We have multiple potential entry points for a wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna based on where we know he “abducted” her, around Harrenhal: weirwood trees on the Isle of Faces, and Septon Meribald, who’s been on a lengthy Riverlands circuit and who performs weddings as part of his pastoral services. 4)It makes more sense for Ned to worry about Jon’s safety - not just where Robert is concerned, but also the Lannisters - and be as fanatical about secrecy if he’s legitimate. If he isn’t, he’s not actually a dynastic threat to anyone. 5)Thematically, there’s not much point in having Jon go from being Ned’s bastard to Rhaegar’s. Yes, there’s the prophecy, but in terms of Jon’s sense of identity, it makes more sense to go bastard -> legitimate than bastard -> bastard. 6)It contrasts him with fake Aegon: One is a fraud who looks and acts the part and one is the real deal who doesn’t look or act like it. However, were I agree with you is that I think it won't matter because Jon grew up with the stigma of being a bastard. No one can take that away from him even if his parents were actually married. He, like Dany, Viserys, and his actual siblings, were casualties of the rebellion that their family lost. None of them got to grow up the way they deserved to. Aegon and Rhaenys were brutally murdered; Dany and Viserys were exiled from their home and grew up alone and penniless. Jon, out of all the Targaryen kids, had it the best, but he was still forced to grow up with the stigma of being the bastard son of the honorable Ned Stark while never knowing who his mother is and therefore his true father. The kids suffered the consequences of their parents choices and mistakes, which is the true tragedy. And the people who would have witnessed a wedding are gone or hold little to no sway. The vast majority of Westeros will still see Jon as a bastard and Ned Stark's kid, not Rhaegar's. The only way Jon will be seen as legitmate is through Robb's will. Not through a secret marriage between his secret parents.

[@sinthoras1917]

The best way to characterize the last seasons of the series is as bad fan fiction imo

[@behurastudio]

Agreed, even if it revealed Jon is a Dragonspawn i definitely won’t be as impactful as him being a bastard has been during the whole story Also the people who call Brienne and Arya NLOG are NLOG themselves smh

[@Feamelwen]

Great video! On another note I would be very interested in a video about Arya, Brienne and Asha and the way the three of them deal with their feminity. I very much enjoy all three characters, but they're very different. I would argue that Arya IS a "not-like-other-girls-girl", not from the author's point of view, but from her own point of view. I do think that she views femininity as something traumatic and weak, and it's all understable given her circumstances. There's nothing wrong with a character having that "I'm not like other girls" attitude. it is a thing that exists, after all. She's also very young, and most of us sadly went through such a phase when we were tennagers (internalized misogyny, yay). Brienne on the other hand, I find very intriguing because she's basically more akin to someone like Sansa (big romantic dreams of knighthood and an idealized view on life at the beginning) trapped in a big burly body. And she struggles with the fact that the body she inhabits doesn't conform to feminine standarts of the time, but she is, to the contrary, in admiration of women with a distinctly feminine strength, like Cat. She seems to admire femininity. And it's a genius move to show, through hers and Sansa's characters, that the ideal of the noble lady at court is as much an illusion as is the ideal of the shining knight, and is just as silly. Which is interesting, because most readers tend to dismiss Sansa as frivolous and stupid for beleving in the noble lady ideal, which is distinctly feminine, but still see the knight idea, which is masculine, as something to aspire to and a more serious thing. Which of course come back around to misogyny, where society still believes that masculine things are serious and worth pursuing, while feminine interests and frivolous and meaningless. And Asha is amazing all around, and is perhaps the best example of someone who learned to play the game of patriarchy instinctively, presenting more masculine when she needs to. Her feelings about her gender seem to be pretty neutral. It also helps that she has plenty of good qualities but is also a very grey character, not overtly preoccupied with moral quandaries (as far as we know of when we're in her head) or agonizing about which decision is the most moral. She goes along with her culture and its more questionable aspects, and I think that's important too in terms of her being an interesting character.

[@memesnow3788]

I’d love a video about Leanna and Aria

[@peacekeeper1413]

Are we gonna get a Rhallor video soon? I’m curious on your thoughts

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Are you watching me🤨? I was thinking of R'hllor and Azor Ahai videos after my next upload😂

[@peacekeeper1413]

@@CompanyOfTheCat well i watched all your videos within a week at work, you keep mentioning reservations on R'hllor so now I'm interested xD

[@magister343]

While I don't believe it to be true, my favorite theory for Jon's parentage is that he is the son of Ned's older brother Brandon, possibly from a secret marriage that they kept hidden so as not to endanger the alliance with the Riverlands. That would mean Jon is technically the true Lord of Winterfell.

[@carter9449]

Yeah the ages don't line up, he'd be much older than Robb

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

I believe that he's the true heir to Winterfell myself as well. It's so ironic that he is treated as a bastard when he is THE true Stark

[@magister343]

Not necessarily. Whether or not Brandon had married the mother earlier, Jon could have been conceived as late as an hour before Brandon confronted Aerys at the Red Keep, which was well after Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. He'd be older than Robb, but not by much. There is a common belief in Westeros that bastards grow up faster than trueborn children, which might make it easier to pass him off as a little younger than he really is. In the Northern custom of the Old Gods, a wierwood heart tree is the only witness needed for a valid marriage. Until the union is consummated with sex, it is considered acceptable for either spouse to end the marriage by swearing wedding vows before a heart tree and then consummating that marriage instead. Once a marriage sworn before a heart tree is consummated, the only way to end it is for a spouse to die (or join the nightswatch, as black brothers are legally considered dead after swearing their oaths). @@carter9449

[@sophiawilson8696]

Thanks you someone read the books ☺️😎🤠 He son of Brandon Stark!

[@jeannebouwman1970]

​@@magister343actually even if brandon conceived someone an hour before he confronted aerys that child would still be a lot older than robb. At the time of brandon's execution ned was in the Vale, and had to first receive the summons of aerys, then he had to travel by sea from gulltown to white harbour to call the banners, and then he had to travel to Riverrun to treat with Hoster Tully and marry Cat and conceive Robb. That takes at least a few months and maybe even half a year. Jon is said to be younger than Robb, I find that hard to believe if he was actually a few months older

[@marumae]

Love this video. Very well done! I also absolutely love how well researched it is as well. I find so many theories from people with half ass remembered plot points they confuse with the television show, it drives me nuts. As for Jon's being a Targaryen, I agreee it ultimately won't matter because that's what Martin has beem hinting at both in text/with contextual clues and interviews. Also sorry to some who hate the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory but it makes the most sense and mega clues are in text to point to it. Agreed. I think his two bloodlines matter only in the symbolism with the name of the series behind them and not practicality. I also think to the eyes of the world, he'll still be a Bastard and not some recognized High Savior of All. Also. Absolutely want a not like the other not like the other girls video!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Glad you enjoyed it, and I agree with you as well, not many things get me going, such as theories involving the show, but only whenever is convenient. Thanks for watching and even though I haven't uploaded it yet, the Arya, Bri, and Asha video are on future plans!

[@ApoorvaKaul]

Great work.

[@emerobrien1759]

Re: the "not-like-other-girls" vid: great idea! Brienne, Arya and Asha stand in contrast to cersei who's the ULTIMATE "not-like-those-girls." They all circle each other in the question of gender, violence, power, that's so essential to the story. Cersei uses violence to harm other women, is powerful by birth but resents her gender despite performing it "well". Brienne fails to perform her gender but claims power through violence, using it to protect others. Arya has power stripped from her, and is kind of divorced from her performance of gender in the process, becoming "no-one" and the whole House of Black and White gender thingies. Sansa as well is powerless but attempts to find power through performance of gender. Argh i could write an essay of my own on this

[@squizill]

You sound like count dracula's wife but your videos are amazing so I'll get over it

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

AHHAHAHAHA this one and the "vampire named Nadia" are my favorite descrptions of my accent so far. Glad you like the videos & thanks for watching❤

[@eric2500]

I am convinced that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar not to have his prophecy baby but to have some fun. Before she married Robert OR used her non virginity as a way to get out of marrying him.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

The prophecy obsessed Rhaegar, that wanted Lyanna for that is a theory that we do not have much base, could it be idk maybe, but we do not see something that hints it, even more he was thinking Aegon as the prince. From what I understand Lyanna said f-it and went with him and Rhaegar also liked her and that happened.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

​@@CompanyOfTheCat there's not really much evidence to say it's relationship born love either.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

@@fightingmedialounge519 from Rhaegar's part there is GRRM himself in interviews have said it, he was a lovesick prince. Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert at all, she at least liked Rhaegar considering the whole crying at his song, giving her flowers (even though personally I think this is because Lyanna was the kotlt), but all in all if Lyanna was like Arya I can easily see her say f it. Even if it was not the craziest love from her part, because at least this guy was someone she chose.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@CompanyOfTheCat sort of. He did mention him.being a lovestruck prince once, but not that he acted outed of love. I mean, that suggest she likes the song not him( the same way jon described jamie as looking like how a king should despite not really caring about him). Honestly the Arya similarities is one of the reasons people don't believe she acted out of love since people feel Arya wouldn't fall for someone like him. Really the the most solid piece of evidence that it was about love in the books is ned saying that it was her own impulsivity that lead to her death. As for rhaeagar acting out of prophecy, we get more than. just hints. We're told at several points how much prophecy meant to him, and daenareys vision about him has claim. him there MUST be one more and the dragon has three heads. The biggest knock againts it is how needlessly blatant rhaegar was about the whole ordeal. It's ironic how much you feel the show doesn't get the characters while it also does more to support your views on some of them( such as rhaegar and lyanna being in love).

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

@@fightingmedialounge519 I am not sold about the fact that he was obsessed with the three heads (I am thinking on a video tbh), in all Targaryen history, the prophecy itself talks about THE prince and Rhaegar thought of himself and later Aegon as THE prince. In Dany's vision, he talked to Daenerys when he said the bit about the three heads, not Elia, and called Aegon THE prince when he was talking with his wife, so we do not know if indeed at the time he believed about the three heads, most likely not. After all visions of this sort are still visions and we do not know how accurate they are. Maester Aemon understood about the three heads close to his death, meaning at the time they didn't have this idea since Aemon and Rhaegar were talking about the prophecy. We have to assume that they talked and cared about the prophecy and one of them got it while the other did not and Rhaegar never brought it up to Aemon, even though they were conversing about it frequently, or that for some reason Maester Aemon told everything to Sam except this bit and both of them seem unlikely according to the information available. Rhaegar most likely was thinking there is an heir (bc the reason for the second kid was they needed a male heir, nowhere do they talk about three heads and all that jazz), there is THE prince (Aegon), I am gonna go with Lyanna. He was stupid because he thought that it would not be as bad most likely, and he left his wife, which d*ck move (even though GRRM has said there is more to their relationship still not cool), but much of the stuff circulating in the fandom about him is straight up speculations. You don't need the deepest purest love for the situation of Rhaegar and Lyanna, you need two stupid, young people who had the hots and found each other interesting. Even more, if Lyanna had the personality we are told she had.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Jon being a bastard is more meant to be a catalyst for his journey of self acceptance rather than than the defining feature or the intended theme. Him being true born doesn't lessen that since, he obviously still would experience growth and the lessons that come from being raised as a noble bastard, and this would act as a extension of his journey of self acceptance with this reveal coming with its own slew of reasons for him to hate himself. Also making him s royal bastards does next to nothing to adress peoples issue with the idea of him being rhaegar's son.

[@marconatalizio9408]

I really hated characters assassinations by Dumb & Dumber in S8 (and before), probably Jaime above all. However, Jon's story might be similar (even if the N + A = J would be truly fascinating): Benjen seems to think that Jon should inherit something when he hints that Jon doesn't know (lol) what he is losing entering the Night's Watch. In addition, if R + L = J, I can totally figure Rhaegar deciding to wed Lyanna: he was obsessed with Aegon, who chose bigamy, and Rhaegar surely considered old prophecies more important than Andals religious beliefs. I appreciate the focus on the message of the story in your videos, but I don't think that Jon being revealed as trueborn would necessarily ruin his arc: as he was changed even before his death, he might even not appreciate to be legitimate or a trueborn, knowing that this is not what makes a person worthy (while younger Jon would have lost his mind in this scenario). Imo it's not what happens that is going to make the difference between the books and the series, rather than how a same event is going to be handled by the author

[@serwalkerofthekeynes8761]

Jon truly is an enigma in terms of consequences, regardless of what he does, there'll be massive ups and downs for the whole of westeros. His targ roots put him ahead of Dani in terms of westerosi tradition, if there's a male heir, the people will likely back that. Its the same as if he decided to air being a full stark, people would jump behind him and forget sansa even existed. Both of these outcomes are huge. As a bastard his life would be easier and far less politically involved, but that doesn't change the fact that he's both stark and targ and also that a few people are aware of this, and if they chose to use this information it could lead to open war.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

For this to happen though we have to dismiss very glaring points of the books and this is my main issue with all these theories, they completely dismiss the main story narrated. I know that especially these recent years people talk about the "low fantasy" nature of these novels, but this is simply not true. The Long Night is the most important thing, GRRM has already talked about the fact that the main issue is the Others. For all these theories and crazy politics to happen we have to assume that well, of course in the end people will start fighting again for the throne and this is the whole point. We have to assume that people will believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar AND that he is also legal (something that with the existing laws is not possible), bc even with full-blooded Targaryen bastards people didn't care, even when they were technically legitimized. We have to assume that people would even find out that this is the case while all this mess is taking place. We have to assume that Jon is gonna be completely ok after his resurrection. We have to assume that people will be ok with Jon after they already have come face to face with another alleged son of Rhaegar, who hs a crew that pillages and rapes throughout the Stormlands. We have to assume that with a KL, completely full of wildfire, a Cersei ready to snap, and a JonCon who thinks how burning and sacking a city would have saved Rhaegar and he will not fail his son, we will even have a throne to fight over. We have to assume that the show was at least partly correct if not completely correct when it clearly wasn't and every year GRRM says that the ending will be different. IDK, watching countless analyses on forums, videos, and comments, I am probably in the minority, because I disagree with most of them as far as politics go and I think many if not most fans talk about the books from the lens of the show. I might be the one that is gonna be in the wrong in the end but the politics I am fairly sure will stop at the end of Winds, if ADOS ever comes out, I don't see the politics, especially in Westeros going even in the slightest similar to the show to even matter that Jon is half Targaryen. Outside of the fact that he will meet another member of his family and learn that he is not alone (something that wants desperately btw, Jon and Daenerys both), I don't think this specific plotline about his dad would matter. I doubt Dany will die or that she will stay in Westeros for that matter, but she will return to the cities in the Red Waste where there is already a tone of foreshadowing since book 2, I doubt Jon will be legal in the first place and if he gets legitimized is gonna be as a Stark, similar to the story of Bael the Bard that is actually narrated to him, and not as a Targaryen. Even the plot point of King Bran that is confirmed by George is most likely gonna be vastly different and we will have Greenseer King Bran and not in Kingslanding. There is no time for Jon to be involved in politics before the Long Night, so we have to assume that the ending will be a "Game of Thrones", even when the author has said that it won't be. And honestly, if 1 in a million the end is politics, then GRRM needs to go back to learning how to write and set up things, bc if a book series that started with ice zombies ends with politics, then we give way too much credit and I will be the first to come out and say, "My guy this is lame what the heck are you writing?", even if he has some of my favorite fantasy works out there aside from ASOIAF.

[@elliottowen-griffiths948]

Fantastic video, always apprecuate seeing theories incorporate the necessary respect for the literary form. Very very solid arguments. Only point i disagree on is the need for adaptations to follow the source material's message. While its annoying when people adapt good media poorly, a lot of great writing comes from adaptations that reject the messaging of their source

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I mean yeah, if the moral of the story and the message is not a good one I agree, for example, many stories have some questionable messages, because they are very old works so possible that they didn't age well, but if the whole story is that message like it is here for example, I think that keeping the idea is something that personally I think necessary to keep, idk. Glad you liked the video (even though I went on a rant in the end, something I try not to do😂) & thanks for watching!

[@elliottowen-griffiths948]

@CompanyOfTheCat I think a great example of this is something like Starship Troopers, a movie which completely rejects and satirises the moral framework and message of its adapted source. As literature fans its easy to see a lot of adaptations of books as lacking the nuance of the source but there's also a huge history of books with bad messages. Changing a book in adaptation is only bad if it's trying to be completely faithful (which I don't think GoT is trying). Some of my least favourite bits of the show are places where it deviates (the lack of colour is a big thing for me) However I do hugely enjoy this video and am checking out the rest of your Channel. Your ice water Wall theory is so solid and well written

[@m.aj11]

Absolutely the only theory that makes sense, if you bother to figure out what George's writing is about, at least imo. Thank you!

[@claymusicoff5663]

I still think that Rhaegar assaulted Lyanna. Robert Baratheon was right to break his chest

[@DiegoFernandesLima]

I also think it's quite possible and I still think he had the taint that Baristan talks about

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

The problem with this theory is why Ned never thinks of something negative of him, and even has some positive thoughts? "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he r*ped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves." Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help." For example, why isn't he here at least more pissed? Not even a slight thought? It's weird. "He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once." Same here. There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. He assaulted Lyanna and everything else only Robert believes and Ned didn't think of him capable of visiting brothels? Only Bobby B believes the asalt scenario from what we see and he isn't a good source. Even he on his deathbed, seems to realize that maybe the "Rhaegar and Lyanna" was not a kidnapping.

[@DiegoFernandesLima]

@@CompanyOfTheCat Maybe Ned didn't know. Ned thinks of Rhaegar as an honorable person, but Rhaegar was anything but. He abandoned his sick wife, an infant daughter and a newborn son. Lyanna may have been r*p*d by Rheagar, got pregnant and ended up developing maternal love for her unborn baby and that's why she preferred not to tell Ned about the r*p* so that Ned wouldn't resent the child for his father's crimes. I think it's possible, but only GRRRRRRRRRRM can give certainty if he wants to.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Not convinced, Lyanna didn't say anything to Ned is highly weird imo, Lyanna was also very much entranced with Rhaegar at the tourney too, hearing him sing and all that jazz, and according to whatever GRRM says about Rhaegar in interviews (love-struck prince, rightfully heir) how Rhaegar would have been a just and good ruler), make all these speculations only, because there isn't much base. Rhaegar didn't know that Elia and the kids would get hold in KL by Aerys, they should have been in Dragonstone, but Aerys was afraid Dorne would bail. George R.R. Martin has also, described Elia's relationship to Rhaegar as "complex". We are missing information, very important information.

[@DiegoFernandesLima]

@@CompanyOfTheCat but none of that changes the fact that he abandoned his family and left them alone in the hands of a crazy person. I know, I know he may have done it because he believed he was fulfilling an important prophecy that would save the world and blá blá blá, but still he was an asshole, maybe an asshole with a good reason, but still an asshole. Has Martin ever said that Rhaegar would be a good king forever? Because his father also started out as a good king, the common people liked his reign. Anyway, I'll take into consideration what's in the books, if the author talked about character x or y elsewhere, that's his problem and it's making it difficult to understand for those who are just reading the books and still aren't having all the necessary information, even if it is little.

[@tereziamarkova2822]

It would be pretty funny if Rhaegar's "trueborn son" staking the claim the throne turned out to be a fake who gets blown up by Cersei or some shit, while the real hero of the story, "prince that was promissed", was his bastard kid who saved the world, and then just... Fucked off somewhere, because he doesn't actually have the right to rule and isn't even interested in a fight for the throne. This is also why I would like for Jon to survive the series - to really savor the irony.

[@Bestialce2007]

I think you forgot to mention that when someone is brought back to life, they lose a part of themselves. Jon is dead and if he rises again, he will be a different person. Literally, proverbially, metaphorically and all other kinds of -ally. A different person and everything it entails. Also, him not having a secret bloodline would be my favourite thing that could happen. If he's a nobody like Guts from Berserk and is still the hero of the story would be incredible. I disagree with most of your points, but you do present a different point of view to look at the character. Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing!

[@maggyfrog]

the difference could be ghost, because jon is very likely going to warg ghost before he comes back to life, so he might still come back whole.

[@aaronabarca4919]

36:31 He could have named himself Brynden Darksister just like Daemon did😂😂😂

[@matheusmazzei4077]

I really like your theories! btw just did my first theory on /asoiaf r3ddit, based on many excellent channels like yours, David, Quinn, The Disputed Lands, Michael, etc… I even mentioned something from you there =D. I tried to be coherent with evidence, its about Leng, The Five Forts, Oldtown and some stuff people normally dont talk about. If you have a minute to spare and fell like it, i just posted it there: [Theory] Cave, Volcanoes and… Goats? (Spoilers main). If you happen to read it, tell me if you liked it or not =D

[@wardam9131]

What if jon's body is ressurected, but without his spirit who is still in Ghost, and the body has a life on it's own. Like Sam in season 6 of supernatural. That would be horrifying and what would Jon's do?

[@yggdrasil2]

I've been saying this for years, but not as eloquently put!

[@LSK1]

Do the video about the not "not like other girls"

[@umwha]

So you believe Jon’s parentage will not be revealed to him?

[@sinthoras1917]

It'd be great if Jon finds out that Robb legitimized him as Ned's trueborn son and then found out that Ned isn't his father and he's still a bastard

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I think his love and respect for Ned growing tremendously. Not only because Ned did his best to protect him and love him, but even the difficulties Ned's choices caused for him, were for his safety, and the rest of the family's safety. He was willing to sacrifice what he considers most important, honor and truth, to protect Jon and the rest of his family, while also keeping his sister's honor and name as clean as possible. And all this with a possibility he will face all the problems if the truth ever came to light while alive.

[@sinthoras1917]

@@CompanyOfTheCat for sure

[@sinthoras1917]

Very correct video

[@siscahormansyah]

Hell yess for Arya n Brienne video!!!! Asha though? well whatever... I guess 😂

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Hey! Don't disrespect the squid queen😂

[@SingingSealRiana]

I really love paralleling dany and jons arcs and circumstances to see how she was set up to fail, while he against all odds from a first glance actually is on a way to be something like a hero in this pretty dark world. He is not by any means without faults, but both the fact that he always finds teachers, really listens to their lessons and is able to put them to good use make him so great! No matter his flawed thinking or values, he is pretty much always willing to see reason, change and give the other the benifit of a doubt. His willingness to move past conflict and do what is right or needed and build solid bonds is his most powerful weapon. He is in a unique position between power and respect and being an underdog that will never really be upperclass making him capable of connecting with both. Dany on the other hand learns time and tome again she can rely on nothing bit herself and her dragons, her advisors are manipulating her, teaching wrong lessons or she takes the wrong thing from their teachings due to the whole situation. Like with mirri, mirri told dany that while she sees herself as their savior, to them she is a threat, her help was superficial and she failed to really get to know the people and what matters to them. Her "saving" of them was for herself. Dany is alone. She has followers and she has adversaries, but she has no friends. Misandei and irri are freed in principle, but how much choice have they really, how much opportunity to unlern and even then it does not change, that they will never be able to speak to her as an equal. She holds power over them. The people who follow her follow a symbol, a hope feeding into her messiah complex, her belief in herself over everything. Jon on the other hand finds friends wherever he goes with actions in a way, that still never chips away on his humanity, he stays approachable and grounded with lots of people to tell him when his thinking is flawed. Jon was raised and grows up to think of the whole, to not easely see others as the enemy and to compromise whith who he dislikes for the best of all. Danys life taught her its her against the world. They are so similar in nature, both between highborn and powerless, both highly inspiring people who caree deeply fornjustice and others, but their cirumstances turn them into very different people. Dany never learns not to feel entitled, onncontrair, she is taught to buy into the idea of her own specialness, to relly onnit as a coping mechanism to overcome hardchips . . . . I am pretty sure, fornevery lesson jon learned, you will find an instance that showes what leads to dany not learning it . Jon being a bastard and cats disdain fornhim being tapered by neds care, arias adoration and the closeness to Robb taught him to stand being disliked without turning him to resentful. The given example of Noye pointing out what he did not see sensitised him to it and turning him willing to give people a chance and be more kind with his judgment. His friendship with sam taught him to value different skills and how to utalise them. The wildlings taught him the value different thinking, ignoring hirachy and, that he cant relly on a tital or whatever to garner respect, he has to really communicate, understand what they want and actually act in their interest if he wants their respect! His highborn bastard birth caused feeling of never quite belonging paradoxically made him really good at sympathising with very many people in very different circumstances, it is escentiel to who he is and even should he be legitimised, the feeling and how it influenced him will never go away. His birth parents and whatever they married do not matter in who he as a person!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I don't agree that much with this, they make pretty much the same decisions, from child hostages to everything. Their arc i almost identical and goes to the same place through opposite directions. Mirri says "Oh that was no help (and for her yes maybe was not), but let's not undermine that other slaves DO see her as saviour because she is (widow of the waterfront etc, etc). I personally do not vibe with the whole "Dany had no reason to do it, she does it for herself" like it is bad to overthrow slavery. Dany was sold as a child bride, Dothraki have on a higher status the horses than the Khaleesi (GRRM's words and explicitly stated multiple times in the text), and she has empathy for them. When people told her hey you are the messiah, she laughed. She has the means, why not use them to make something good? This is what real heroes do, this is what GRRM thinks as real heroes, both Dany and Jon are heroes.

[@thatoneblackdude3333]

​@@CompanyOfTheCatexactly idk what this guy's talking about dany failing

[@maggyfrog]

i think dany has friends, but she doesn't realize they are her friends, like quaithe and ser barristan. even if it comes to pass that dany becomes mad queen, i don't buy into the narrative that she was always cruel. it just looks that way because d&d failed her character. especially the mhysa arc, if anything, dany is being pulled away further from westeros because she feels it matters that she overthrow the ghiscari tyranny, and quaithe is the one person in the world reminding her that she has a more important matter to attend to in westeros, and ser barristan is the one person educating her about rhaegar targaryen, her only connection to anything of virtue about her family

[@RealVincent1989]

Dany is literally a hero

[@BlackHand531]

Ashara and ned don't have timeline issues. It's in the text.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Yeah, a nlog vid!!! Nlog is about how people percive you and trying to influence that, arya, briennen, Asha and not to forget meera are nothing like that!

[@yggdrasil2]

There is a slight problem with Jon being a bastard even after his parentage is revealed, even though that is what I'd prefer, and that is that Ned wonders if Rhaegar had any bastards, indicating that he at least thinks Jon is legitemate. That being said, I don't think much from book one can be used as evidence for R+L=J, because in the same chapter Ned states to himself that he hasn't thought about Rhaegar in years, which makes no sense if he was raising his kid lol EDIT: Unless Ned thinks he is hiding a different, fake, secret identity!

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Ned thinks of Rhaegar before this statement is made and not only once so this is definitely a GRRM mistake. Also after 15 years he sure started to think Jon as a son he sure wouldn't think of Rhaegar all the time it doesn't make sense, he started to think of him again when he started to talk so much about him. The biggest clue is Ned's choices, if Ned is his father then we all have to accept that he is as big of a butthole as Robert and Cersei was correct, the thinks he hides are completely insane if he didn't have a reason. The second biggest clue is the blue roses, we have seen them only in Lyanna's stories, in Dany's vision on the wall and in stories they say to Jon about a stolen Stark maiden. There are quite a few clues in the books I would say, idk.

[@jennifera.4511]

I'm quite afraid that Rhaegar used the "I married Elia before the seven gods, but if I marry Lyanna BEFORE THE OLD GODS then in theory it won't be polygamy and I can get away with it" excuse, Idk, can't get this out of my head. But yeah, Jon's essence and journey would be ruined if he weren't a bastard, his dilenmas are so interesting to follow, I think George won't go "trueborn" route, at least I hope so XD

[@bearforfun]

Ned by himself said think of jon as a bastard

[@Oliver-zy8sq]

George wants us to think that Ashara is Jon's Mother. When Ned said "Never ask me about Jon" Catlyn actually asked him about Ashara, not Jon. And Cercei asked Ned if Ashara killed herself because of the brother he slew or the bane he took from her. Why those references?

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

The thing with Ashara is that causes way more issues than answers and it also destroys Ned as a character as well, we completely need to contextualize him. Jon Snow is known to have been born during the end of Robert's Rebellion (according to Grrm himself) meaning he was conceived during the rebellion, and Eddard and Ashara do not seem to have been in each other's vicinity at the time of conception. Maybe they could meet somewhere, but still big if from what we know about both of them, they were not very close. Barristan Selmy recalls that Ashara was "dishonored" at the tourney at Harrenhal, which is clearly not the case for Jon. We do not know where Ashara was exactly, but we have very good information about where Ned was. We need the place where Ned after his wedding was, since there is no reason for him to lie Jon was consived before the wedding, even the claim thing is kind of a flimsy explanation. Eddard called his banners and marched south to join Robert, arriving with Lord Hoster Tully in time to turn the tide at the Battle of the Bells. Afterward, he went to Riverrun to marry Hoster's elder daughter, Catelyn. So, we have to assume that Ashara was among all this mess in the Riverlands, something HIGHLY unlikely for a highborn maid. We know she wasn't in KL during the sack, and every date before or after these two events does not work even if we apply the GRRM is bad at math. Even putting KL is generous, but GRRM could have been messing up dates, if we put it logically, Ashara was in the Riverlands between the BotB and the Trident and everything outside these two events is not possible. *But* let's say that somehow, during all this mess Ashara was at the Riverlands and Ned had intercourse with her and Jon is her child then there are even more eye-catching issues. 1. If Ashara is Jon's mother, Eddard would have no reason to take the child from its mother, nor keep her identity a secret from everyone, including Jon. Fr there is no reason for such furtivety for something like that. This is a question that people never answer in any other theory apart from RLJ, but Ned doesn’t have a reason to not say anything to anyone, Jon, Cat, Robert, and so on. If his mom was Ashara, Wylla, or whoever else. He puts everyone including himself in a very hard situation for no reason and just makes Ned an a**hole. 2. At Starfall, despite the belief that Ashara and Eddard had been in love, Ashara is NOT believed to be Jon's mother, why? If Eddard had fathered a bastard on Ashara and taken her child away from her, causing her suicide, why did the Daynes name their heir after him? Ned's relationship with the Daynes only is enough evidence that Ashara is not Jno's mom. 3. Cat mentioned her because people in Winterfell said the name and she heard it. Servants and household members who were at the tourney knew that these two at Harrenhal had a fling most likely same goes for Cersei who was there, so of course they would say her name, but servants, Highborn, and common people talk and spread gossip and rumors all the time, so it doesn’t really mean anything. In Winterfell servants were saying it was Ashara, bc they knew the Harrenhal events, as we saw in Arya chapters, Cersei was there so she also had heard the rumors that some Stark canoodle with Ashara, in the three sisters, they say it was a fisherman's daughter, the Daynes say it was Wyla, meaning that everyone says the rumor they have heard. People bring up the "I thought of Rhaegar for the first time in years" as weird if Jon is Lyannas's, but this is probably a GRRM mistake or it means he thought of him extensively and his character, because Ned speaks of Rhaegar in earlier chapters, and thinks about Rhaegar in the chapter before the claim "for the first time in years" is made. Ned thinks of Rhaegar way more than Ashara, bc he actually NEVER thinks of her, which I find way more curious than not thinking of Rhaegar (which wasn't even true). He never thinks of her? She died and some say she died because of him, killed her brother, took her kid, and never thinks of her? Not even during his fever dream? Again then Ned is an a**hole. 4. Why is Jon connected to blue roses, Lyanna’s flower, and not maybe purple, stars, or dawn or something? In the context of the TV series the RLJ came out of nowhere because they were removing all the foreshadowing, but in the books, there are many hints, since book 1, thus is the most popular theory since the 90s. 5. If indeed Ashara is Jon’s mom, at least to me, seems like a very poorly crafted story, because all these are big issues and they also affect the characters' personalities. If Ned took Jon instead of leaving him at Dorne then we have to recontextualize his whole character, because this is almost cruel. Jon would have a MUCH better life at Dorne since bastards are way more accepted with a better position. He would have a much better life 100%. If this is the case then people were correct about Ned not being honorable and cheating on Cat since he said that he was conceived after his wedding, he was cruel because he deprived Jon of a better life, the truth about his mother, and strained his wedding for no reason at all. Because all these are selfish and even worse, selfish for no reason at all, just Ned being a**hole. So, was Cersei correct about Ned, and was he just another Robert? This was an essay😂 but this theory has serious problems and if this is the case it is beyond badly written.

[@Oliver-zy8sq]

@@CompanyOfTheCatI still have some thoughts on this and I wonder what you think about them. It is frequently stated how Jon is the most like Ned from all his sibling and how he reminds others (especially catelyn) of Ned. He gets these mentions more often than his siblings combined. Especially in Jons first chapter. Tyrion states how Jons face has more of the north in it than those of the other stark children, Jon presses together his lips when he is angry or sad just like Ned, Ghost gets described as a shy wolf and as a quite wolf by Benjen and Tyrion and the fact that he is white gets pointed out which is all how Ned is described in the knight of the laughing tree story - all in Jons first chapter. It is not only that Jon is depicted as basically THE Stark, all while being a bastard, he is also heavily connected to Ned specifically. And that is why I wonder: Why putting so much of an emphasis on how much Jon is basically Ned in younger when he actually is the son of someone else? Even if Jon is a bastard (which I definitely deem possible) I still believe him to be Neds son. What do you think about this?

[@facundomedina9762]

The important thing here is that Jon will be king, not because of his parents, but because he's literally a Disney princess. He has 2 animal companions, one of which can speak. An evil Queen planned on having him killed (the faith stopped her)

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

😂😂

[@SingingSealRiana]

Wait wait wait wait, sansa and sandor, but lyanna and rheagar are creepy?! Wtf?! Thats weird . . .like ship what you ship, but thats some serious double standards

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Oh, I have seen weird things in asoiaf ships. Like really weird, CURSED weird.

[@WhitneyAllisonGG]

I have no problem that the parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar. I also do believe they are married. My feeling is Rhaegar would have justify being married to two women because Aegon the Conqueror was. The brings up the other question in Rhaegar eyes Jon would have been legitimate but not necessarily to the rest of Westerosi eyes. Rhaegar by law will be still married to Elua Martell and the marriage to Lyanna Stark might be considered illegal. Westrosi culture is pretty monogamous and with the exception to Aegon the Conqueror. Even the Targaryens were also monogamous when it comes to marriage.

[@umwha]

I think the truth will come out. That does not have to subvert the moral. I believe that Jon will learn of his parentage , and the true subversion will be that Jon, unlike the classic fantasy protagonist, is not happy about it. He would only be hurt by it, and may ironically wish for his bastard status again, to remain the son of Ned stark. Alternately, the subversion comes this way. Jon is on a crossroads - go north and devote himself to the fight with the Others - or receive everything he could ever want by going south to acknowledge and press his claim to the throne, becoming the true king. Even given this oppurtunity to have that status , he must chose to forgo it.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I never said that Jon will not learn who his parents are, but learning doesn't mean that his parents are married and he is a prince, which is what I talked about in the video. And this would be very much a bad moral message for his story. I think that Jon will find out the truth and he will be very much moved because the truth is so different from what he expects. I don't see him being very impressed with the fact that his parents were two people that only heard in very limited heavily embellished stories and gossip though, but I see his love and respect for Ned growing tremendously. Not only because Ned did his best to protect him and love him, but even the difficulties Ned's choices caused for him, were for his safety, and the rest of the family's safety. He was willing to sacrifice what he considers most important, honor and truth, to protect Jon and the rest of his family, while also keeping his sister's honor and name as clean as possible. And all this with a possibility he will face all the problems if the truth ever came to light while alive. And Jon will understand that what your parents did and in general things that were not your fault do not define who you are, because "it is your blood". What matters is how you were raised and what choices you made in your life. Thanks for watching! Edit: sp

[@eric2500]

Mama's baby! PAPPA'S? maybe.

[@JungleTherapy2023]

Imo a Jon Snow sequel is the only way HBO can redeem themselves and asoiaf in the show after the nuclear dumpster fire that was GOT s8. HBO better not be permanently cancelling the Jon Snow sequel, because hotd isn't enough to level things out. As amazing and well-done as hotd is... we need a sequel AS WELL.

[@Sienisota]

This is exactly my thoughts on the matter. Thematically, Jon being a lost prince just doesn't fit.

[@theduxabides9274]

38:18 Jon dodged the biggest genetic bullet of all time by not inheriting a SINGLE trait from his dad, well, maybe the questionable decision making, but Jon has yet to abscond with a 15 year old to make her birth his son's second sister-wife, and hopefully he never does

[@Aaronhoulston]

That's cause he's blatantly not his dad lol

[@theduxabides9274]

Small victories!@@Aaronhoulston

[@SingingSealRiana]

​@@Aaronhoulston . . . And who IS? Lya was a spit fire, so many of the nedish stark read characteristics might actually BE traits from rheagar, melancholic, idealistic, Not wanting to BE a Leader or heros but stepping Up to IT Out of need, that are all rheagars traits. Ned gets herolded AS the Essence of starkness, but with His serious and gloomy quite personality, He was the Off one Out of His siblings. Brandon, Lya and even Benjen are portrayed AS way more outgoing and brash. Lya also Had a rather cruel streak AS shown in brans Vision where He thinks He sees himself and Arya, but can Tell they are Not, cause the girl Beat the Boy way harsher then Arya ever was with him.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

​@@theduxabides9274 I'd say inherited a few things.

[@theduxabides9274]

@@fightingmedialounge519 He IS something of an emo like his old man...

[@EvilArtifact]

I don’t fully buy any of the John Snow parentage theories quite yet, mainly because Ned tells us directly how guilty he feels about John. If he’s not the father, why would he specifically feel so personally guilty first the failure of fathering a bastard? This is the one thing that keeps me uncertain.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

This is gonna be an essay probably, I am sorry 😂 I mean he lies to his best friend, his wife, Jon and yes, it does make Cat's and Jon's life more difficult, these are enough reasons to be guilty. Add the danger he out on people if something happens and Robert snaps. If Ned is his dad, then we have to accept that Ned is an a*hole. Why not tell anything, to Jon who agonizes to learn the tiniest bit about his mom? Why not tell Cat, you know what we didn't know each other it was the war sh*t happened and I had intercourse? For some reason the mother has to be secret from everyone, Jon, Cat, Robert why? For what reason, why put everyone in such a difficult position? Especially if the mom is a random person of lower class. The only highborn we have is Ashara, if any other highborn lady was involved we would have a rumor something, but we don't. If Ashara is case is even worse. It is a character assassination for Ned and a story full of inconsistencies, that even bending backward cannot be explained. The dates are so bad, that even the GRRM is pants at maths doesn't make it up. We have to assume that Ashara was among all this mess in the Riverlands, something HIGHLY unlikely for a highborn maid. We know she wasn't in KL during the sack, and every date before or after these two events does not work even if we apply the GRRM is bad at math. Even putting KL is generous, but GRRM could have been messing up dates, if we put it logically, Ashara was in the Riverlands between the BotB and the Trident and everything outside these two events is not possible. But let's say that she was and she is the mother, there is still no reason to keep it a secret. The rumors are still there is not like he protected her dignity or something. Quite often, people bring up the "I thought of Rhaegar for the first time in years" as weird if Jon is Lyannas's, but this is probably a GRRM mistake or it means he thought of him extensively and his character, because Ned speaks of Rhaegar in earlier chapters, and thinks about Rhaegar in the chapter before the claim "for the first time in years" is made. Ned thinks of Rhaegar way more than Ashara, bc he never thinks of her, which I find way more curious than not thinking of Rhaegar (which wasn't even true). He never thinks of her? She died and some say she died because of him, killed her brother, took her kid, and never thinks of her? Not even during his fever dream? Again then Ned is an a**hole. The Daynes also don't believe is Ashara and are way too cool with Ned, why? He killed Arthur, Ashara died, he left her pregnant, took the baby and the Daynes named their heir after him? Jon is connected to blue roses and the flower is often mentioned to her and even in a story about a stolen Stark maiden. This is Lyanna’s flower, why not maybe purple, stars, or dawn or something? In the context of the TV series the RLJ came out of nowhere because they were removing all the foreshadowing, but in the books, there are many hints, since book 1, thus is the most popular theory since the 90s. If Ned took Jon instead of leaving him at Dorne then we have to recontextualize his whole character, because this is almost cruel. Jon would have a MUCH better life at Dorne since bastards are way more accepted with a better position. He would have a much better life 100%. If this is the case then people were correct about Ned not being honorable and cheating on Cat since he said that he was conceived after his wedding, he was cruel because he deprived Jon of a better life, the truth about his mother, and strained his wedding for no reason at all. Because all these are selfish and even worse, selfish for no reason at all, just Ned being d*ck. So, was Cersei correct about Ned, and was he just another Robert? Yup, it was an essay, but honestly, there isn't a reason to never mention his mother to Jon even when he rode for the wall. It is poor writing and it is just as poor if the mother is a random person we have never heard of.

[@EvilArtifact]

@@CompanyOfTheCat I have no issue with Ned being an a*hole. There are no purely nice people in this story. At the same time, I forgive GRRM for mistakes. This is a complex piece of writing. Layers of real world and in-world mythology, tons of symbolism, etc. But Ned speaks as if he’s guilty specifically for siring John. I can’t hand-wave it, and I can’t solve it in a satisfying way. I think all the prophecies are bullsh*t, though. John doesn’t need to be special to play his part. But there is still room for a non-RLJ answer.

[@6942-j7y]

I would love a video on how esgret ary and the beautiful maid are not like not like other girs This coment has increased strokes all over the world by 1,5%

[@olympiakos1262]

Απο το πρωτο λεπτο καταλαβα οτι προκεται για ελληνικη προφορα🤣. Κατα τ'αλλα πολυ καλο βιντεο

[@julioulloa5403]

If jon is not a bastard meen that the people are right about bastards. Bc every other bastard we met is an Ah in the main serie. ( walter rivers does not count) And i dont think george means that

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Not really. Edric seems like a good kid, as does tommen, gendry, Marcella, etc.

[@stemill1569]

I like the story that Jon is the son of Liara. It's hard to find another reason why Ned is claiming Jon as his son and why Ned was never talking about Jons mother. Ned was described as an honorable man even when he gets hurt. But would he ever be a legal Targarian? No. In first place he is a Targarian bastard. Some crippled boy telling stories about Jon being a true born Targarian isn't really anything that matters. So will Jon ever be a true Targarian? Well...I don't like that Sam would by accident find a document that proves that Jon isn't just another Bastard. On the other side it would fit. Martin loves incest. So having Jon marry his Aunt..step Aunt(?) would just fit to Martins perversions. At the end it doesn't really matters. A book can introduce one or two new characters who lead the Nightswatch. What matters at the end is how the Seven Kingdoms are conquered and how Martin wants to go over to fighting the dead. At the end Martin can just go WW2 like. "We all hate each other but the evil have to be defeated". If you think about Americans, Britains, French and Soviets. So...Targarians, Ironborn (the show had a nice idea about "let's hide on our Island until it's over), Lannister, Martell and Bolton. Just to name a few. Do we need Jon for such a thing? No. but accepting to fight with the Boltons would be a good selling point for Jon to show how important it is to fight together against the Nightwalkers. The show did a good job (last season doesn't count as everything had to be cut short) But let's see how Martin will do it...if he ever does it. (I'm not sure if one book is enough)

[@aegorbittersteel2154]

Someone else's Blackfyre blood matters more😄

[@kaisercollins3097]

I can see why George may have a bad take but the reality is that those in our world people consider the "dreamers" are usually the most vile and evil people to have ever lived. There is no greater evil than an evil man that believes he is good.

[@rhi-y8d]

I would listen to hours of you arguing that Brienne, Arya, and Asha are not NLOGs 😭 this is one of my biggest pet peeves when people talk about the series. That combined with the argument that NLOGs are the ONLY women GRRM makes (people also include Ygritte???) makes me want to turn into a dragon and burn them :)

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

I blame GoT and that DUMB "girls are stupid line"

[@rhi-y8d]

@@CompanyOfTheCat one of my favorites is when the show changes Brienne calling Jaime a craven to her saying "you sound like a bloody woman" :))))))))

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

@@rhi-y8d 😭

[@sinthoras1917]

"subscribing to the theory doesn't mean someone supports the scenario in real life" Damn, you're crazy.

[@CompanyOfTheCat]

Ladies are wildin' 🤪