Why Kleavor is Bad but Samurott is Good

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Why Stone Axe Kleavor Failed But Ceaseless Edge Samurott Didn't.
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[@pkwonderer]

Is funny how one of the takeaways is that spikes are better than rocks because stealth rock is so broken that even just the threat of it forces mons weak to it to use boots

[@Interiorcrocodilealigator10838]

Between gen 8 and 9. I’ve had teams w/ only spikes. Reminds me of random clips of blunder and aim going back and forth on if spikes suck. “Spikes is trash, everyone has boots” “spikes hits everyone w/o boots

[@sonic5993]

The sheer irony that a move designed to lay down one of the best hazards in the game is weaker because everyone is already prepared for it.

[@rabbidcreature9681]

@@sonic5993that’s how metas sometimes work.

[@i_like_chomp6382]

Spikes have honestly always been better than rocks, because you hit bulky stuff that wouldn't care about rocks amyways. The problem has always been to stack them effectivley

[@RobbeSeolh]

Volc is Ubers, Pokémon is kinda broken now.

[@platypuspatrol9625]

Hamurott has better stat distribution defensively and has a better typing both offensively and defensively, but what I see very few people comment on is the spammable nature of Ceaseless Edge compared to Stone Axe. After you click Stone Axe the first time, it is effectively a normal move - whereas Ceaseless Edge can be used repeatedly and continues to set up hazards. Every time Hamurott switches in it can get up a layer of spikes, but once Kleavor has set up Rocks its main selling point - its signature move - loses its main value until your opponent clears their hazards

[@nomongosinthaworld]

This and H-Rott being able to threaten Tusk are honestly the biggest arguments. In Gen 8 Kleavor would be top tier

[@mhchx3]

Was going to post the same thing. Ceaseless edge has huge benefits over spikes because of its spammable nature. Stone axe over stealth rock isn't that crazy, considering the 90% accuracy and drawback of having to run a slow rock/bug pokemon with virtually no resistance, a virtually useless bug stab, no access to priority move and own weakness to stealth rock. If stone axe was available on Pokemon like Tyranitar or Garganacl, then it would be a different story. But Kleavor in lower tiers will be a huge threat, with assault vest or choice items.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Stone Axe IS a very solid move even with no upside though, on Sharpness Kleavor specifically

[@krislee3155]

I love the implications of Ceaseless Edge. Implying that Hisuian Samurott is striking you so hard and viciously with his seamitars that he's actually fracturing them, leaving sharp shrapnel on the battle field.

[@MrCheese270]

All that for 65 BP

[@Mr502]

Resisting both of Kingambit's STABs and threatening to OHKO back is huge. Kingambit and Great Tusk still own this meta.

[@honjon666]

Facto

[@kit2877]

Nah gambit is clearly not him rn. Sneasler enamourus lando and samurott are all top 15 Mons and all destroy it. It's still good but to say it owns the meta is just obviously wrong

[@danyg5639]

@@kit2877yeah but late game it can still sweep especially if it teras

[@kit2877]

@@danyg5639 yeah but so can every single Mon I just mentioned. This is a hyper offense metagame if you can't sweep well in the end game it's not looking good for you. And gambit isn't particularly threatening compared to other Mons because of the prevalence of Mons like great tusk lando enamourus

[@Mr502]

@@kit2877 I still hold my opinion. Those Pokémon are in part good because they answer well into Kingambit. If one Pokemon determines if others are good or bad in a metagame, I'd say that's owning a metagame.

[@MrOofio64]

Water/Dark > Bug/Rock

[@xy394]

Two good typings versus too bad typings

[@tiecoonracoon3630]

+ slow and frail

[@RFDN0]

Also multiple spike layers > multiple stealth rock attempts.

[@rabbidcreature9681]

@@xy394t’s more that bug/rock is better offensively than defensively compared too water/Dark, secondly considering great tusk is such a prevalent Pokémon in the meta that it threatens Klevor but is threatened by Sam. Thirdly you can spam Ceaseless Edge but have to more or less guess with Stone Axe.

[@Warlord_Megatron]

@@tiecoonracoon3630 they literally have the same speed stat 💀

[@hikerclarence7092]

Samurott is one of my favorite starters of all time and the hisuian variant is so badass. I'm glad to see it doing well. Ceaseless edge defines it but it also has such a great movepool to go with it and a great stat spread and typing that allows it to run a lot of different sets

[@TheUnknownZ990]

🤝

[@IgnitedQuils]

They both have the same speed stat, Kleavor hits harder + has good physical bulk. Yet it has 2 resistances and 3 weaknesses. While H-Samurott has 2 more weaknesses, it has an immunity and 6 resistances. Plus two STAB priority moves in the form of Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch. Plus it’s neutral to Stealth Rock.

[@ShadowRaikou]

Kleavor has 3 weaknesses: Rock, Steel, Water

[@jacobjensen7704]

Not to mention spikes can stack, stealth rock doesn’t.

[@mr.sandman7339]

Gamefreak always has a favorite😂. Kleavor should've gotten First Impression and Accelerock to attempt to even things out a little more.

[@GapiszMiSieNaBebech]

actually their physical bulk is about the same. Because Samurott has way more HP, belive me 70 and 90 look like a miserable 20 points but it's actually HUGE, way more valuable than 15 defence stat.

[@Crystal323100]

@@GapiszMiSieNaBebech Yeah, 1 Base Stat point at lvl 100 is like a difference of 2 points if you have no EVs on each, HP tends to be a lot higher. That 40 HP difference can mean a lot. Base 75 Atk is 170~273 vs HP's 260~354 due to the HP calculation.

[@Random-yg1fi]

I guess a better question is why use a limited distributed rock type move that sets up stealth rock when you can use the widely distributed rock type move and choose a better Pokémon

[@LoDart210]

its a shame Kleavor can’t do well in OU, but the meta as it is now just doesn’t allow it have a meaningful presence. Quality and editing were top notch, keep it up Joey! These little meta update videos are fantastic.

[@grizzlyscalp9506]

Typing sucks always did so I'm not surprised.

[@YiOldeJoel]

Joey i enjoy this style of content, including the shorts you made with similar topics about viability and meta changes. Very easy to digest, informative, and concise.

[@imablisy]

This was a good lil video. Explains the hazards meta so succinctly.

[@danielsc8656]

Cool, you used an image of Samurott landing the Ceaseless Edge, how rare! lol

[@mr.sandman7339]

I'm convinced that move has 50% accuracy

[@StepBaum]

Good topic and great to the point breakdown!

[@chimpact]

Great video😮

[@irbest6148]

I think that Kleavor will be great in UU in any case, it can hit hard, esp without Great Tusk around

[@mhchx3]

I'd say RU is a better fit for Kleavor. UU will still have massive threats and rock/bug just isn't worth a team slot.

[@Essey001]

Wow. This is certainly "Why Kleavor is Bad but Samurott is Good" in Pokemon X and Y for the Nintendo 3DS. Great job, I'm floored. I was really dazzled by this video.

[@anthonyrebuffo9509]

The moment it gets psyco cut legally it could manage

[@EricKingOfScots]

I feel like rock types should "Absorb" stealth rock like poison types do for toxic spikes, or at the very least they should be immune to stealth rock.

[@EM7575]

Honestly rock should resist rock, which would make stealth rocks easier for them to take.

[@firewall5189]

​@@EM7575why they dont already is honestly beyond me

[@Ceannsias]

Would love if you made a video on the pros, cons and implications of item clause.

[@typhlosion7872]

Typing, movepool, stats

[@droozyyy]

Getting the added benefit of setting up spikes every time you attack compared to the one and done Stone Axe does make Ceaseless Edge a bit better but Stone Axe is also nice bc you don’t have to worry about Taunt. Kleavor is definitely still a good Pokémon and if the main threats of OU shift, it will definitely become a staple

[@nomongosinthaworld]

It will never be a threat in a Tusk meta, just how it is. And Tusk will never not be OU.

[@BlazeSLK]

It’s almost like water dark is just a super good typing

[@mr.sandman7339]

I think they've made just about every variation of an offensive water/dark type: Physical Set up Sweepers: Mega Gyarados, Hamurott, Crawdaunt, SD Gren (no guarantee it's good) Special Set up Sweepers: Battle Bond Gren (gen 9), Nasty Plot Crawdaunt (if you're crazy) Breakers: Crawdaunt, Battle Bond Gren (gen 7), Mega Sharpedo Cleaners: Mega Sharpedo, Ash-Gren Mixed attacker: Protean Gren, Hamurott Gren should've gotten Nasty Plot instead of SD tho and then it might have stayed OU. The Protean nerf would limit it anyway

[@SeventhGod77]

I will preface this with the fact that I am the bug type guy and will take a Kleavor over samarott (even though I love them both) any day. Giving a Pokémon with arguably the best defensive single type and one of the best offensive typings, a crazy good ability, coverage to use with it’s ability, the perfect stats that make it a Jack of all trades that can fit into a Myriade of holes on lots of teams, and two priority options probably would make it a really really good Pokémon. Add on the ability to set up free hazards with the biggest complaint being that your 95 base power move with free spikes can miss, yeah it’s probably better than it’s competition with an objectively worse defensive typing both offensively and defensively that doesn’t even have the same level of coverage nor versatility due to it’s lackluster typing. Basically: Kleavor should’ve been faster with less defensive utility. Bug typed rely on their secondary typing to help them, water types are usually hard carrying their secondary typing because water types can do everything. Rock types are terrible defensively. Just make them offensive and fast.

[@pewdewpiebridge]

this vid as a short would go crazy

[@pokeaimMD]

i got it as a 2 part short haha but will upload later

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

so basically, most mons that are goobed by stealth rock have boots on whereas every grounded mon is goobed by spikes but aren’t always wearing boots

[@toast_busters]

Obviously if Boots didn't exist it would be a different story. Though it would be interesting to if they kept the concept of splinters as a mechanic when bringing these moves over. Then they would just be moves that work like a stronger Salt Cure

[@wiimoterevcon]

Short and concise explanation!! Now watch this video go up 📈

[@bluemeister22]

Great vid Joey! Nice yo you doing different things. Ever thought about doing some showdown history vids?

[@pokeaimMD]

Could you elaborate please

[@bluemeister22]

@@pokeaimMD I mean batteling back in the day when you first started, and going through all the metagames of the past, trip down memorylane, old skool, that kind of stuff.

[@pokeaimMD]

@@bluemeister22 sounds fun i might just do it

[@bluemeister22]

@@pokeaimMD Can't wait to see that! Keep up the good work, much love from the Netherlands

[@RFE812]

Bummer that Kleavor didn’t get to keep its access to Psycho Cut, Psycho cut would have been useful to hit Fighting Types(which resist Its STAB combo) along with getting the Sharpness boost. I wonder how good Sheer Force Kleavor is though.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

I checked Not great It has Braviary syndrome hard. Sheer Force, with no moves to use it with. Hisuinian Braviary does well with it though

[@-_-thisnameiscreativeasfuc4734]

I wish Spikes damage got a boost depending on how heavy the pokémon that steps on them is

[@muzz4610]

joey the fact you bullied me for saying kleavor sucks and now you’ve uploaded this video. never believed in magic till i saw my dawg turn into a snake fr 😔

[@jayplay8869]

Let’s go formats these things would be monsters

[@Squaredasher]

The main thing to also mentions is that while there aren’t many good spikers in OU, there are TONS of good stealth rockers

[@plabcentral630]

Can’t wait for kleavor I’m like uu. Gonna be fun.

[@TheUnknownZ990]

Pokeaim continuing to talk abt Samurott's *GREATNESS* continues 😤😤😤

[@xy394]

This video is just an example of the "Type Tier List" Top Tier: Steel, Fairy, Ghost, Dark Bottom Tier: Bug, Rock, Grass, Psychic

[@ShadowRaikou]

Water is top tier as well

[@mipho5899]

Not mentioning Ground is actually insane.

[@i_like_chomp6382]

Ehh Psychic isn't bottom tier, on paper yes, but not to the point where its as bad as Bug and Rock, Ice is better instead

[@superstardoughball9822]

​@@i_like_chomp6382psychic is basically way worse ghost tbh

[@i_like_chomp6382]

@@superstardoughball9822 Yeah and Dark is also a worse Ghost... Psychic is extremely difficult to switch into due to it having access to things like Psychic Terrain, Psyshock, and Stored Power. Pre-Home Psychic Spam was everywhere because of these tools and general good offesnive prowess

[@rpgamer05x84]

Also H-samurott has 2 inmunities and resistance to popular mons Is amazing. We all know Rocks>spikes but are you dealing to sacrifice a slot for a mediocre mon just cuz a free rocks? 1 free turn but running a mediocre pokemon for it.

[@1997goblue]

I use Kleavor in ranked double matches its serves it propose via trick room and rock slide haven't had too much trouble it definitely takes care of whats weak to it but definitely could be better been meaning to change its tera to rock from bug

[@ElAlv4rO]

Hisuian Samurott's ability is sharpness (slicing moves have their power multiplied by 1.5), and his move Ceaseless Edge can set a spike in the opposing side and his base power is 65, but boosted by sharpness ability to 97.5. And can learn usefull moves like sucker punch, aqua jet, and moves that are boosted by sharpness like sacred sword, razor shell, aqua cutter... This form is much better than unova form.

[@minkblanket9632]

aite time to add two layers of stealth rocks, 50% upon switch in

[@McLovinYoGurl24]

My dreams my heart broken hopefully kleavor will make a return

[@rene9175]

So you're saying that I need to use Kleavor in a Magic Room team...?

[@frankunodostres473]

so in a nutshell: it is a meta call because atm past paradox donphan is really good... because putting up stealth rock with a move is crazy good and nobody can convince me otherwise. it will find its usage eventually

[@leonardopoindestre9520]

I feel like whenever there’s a post-mortem on why one Pokémon swam and another sank, the answer almost always ends up being “bad type gg” 😂😭 like some type combos are just SO bad…

[@JesseNightingale]

Befor watching the video I asume its to do with typeing and stat distribution.

[@Stephatos]

you haven't lived until you've ran fury cutter kleavor

[@sealeo5772]

Ceaseless edge is better for a variety of reasons, but I think one of the more neglected ones is that the reason stealth rock is on basically every team is because it's such a common move while spikes are rare. Setting up hazards eith an attack is good, but is it so much better than doing it with a status move that you would run kleavor over something actually good? Wheras with samurott you aren't as likely to have it competing with other spikers and so it can fit on more teams.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

The potential is there, Stealth Rock into Magic Bounce or Taunt, Stone Axe is a really good move on Sharpness Kleavor even without the rocks, and would be decent even without Sharpness, you can compress stealth rock onto a banded pokemon ect. The problem is really just Kleavor. It's not good enough to warrant running it over any of the good stealth rockers, even with those upsides. If, say, Tyranitar or Garchomp got Stone Axe, they'd probably use it over Stealth Rock.

[@Ritsu362]

Volc with the Tims tho 😳

[@pokatana4130]

Praise to the dark otter.

[@Nintendoswitch-br2ki]

It's a shame since Kleavor in general has improved statistical offensive and physical defense and fewer weaknesses, but it happens to be in a generation where the most dominant pokemon are weak to water/dark and not to rocks.

[@NEET_DG201]

it's kinda funny how kleavor is actually doing better in vgc while samurott-h is not all that great in vgc

[@Devhawk124]

8 ground types!?

[@teno777]

I wish the ronin samurai shell-armored pokemon could shell smash on top. :( It beckons it !

[@hideharu-xiii8852]

You know what, good for Samurott. It deserves the nice glow up in the spotlight.

[@nickolassussybaka437]

I think the main problem with kleavor is that it's speed and bulk combination with type is not good

[@THGMR-ox7sd]

This makes me sad. I love Kleavor

[@t_s_albatross3270]

Simple answer: Most teams are already more than prepared for stealth rock and it only gets one layer Spikes is hard to play around and gets 3

[@stevenmattrell3448]

Kleavor: "He does exactly the same thing I do!" Hisuian Samurott: "But better."

[@vernonfeza3189]

Knock off is missing for most mon, imagine pex get knock again with Ferro return

[@Clodsireenjoyer-bc9cd]

So spikes are better because stealth rock is better?

[@dylanblade9078]

Justice for Kleavor it’s not even bad, as of right now Kleavor is in UU

[@luroluroluro]

Water as a type is too OP tbh

[@TheDrock08]

Yeah Bug/Rock is not a good typing at all. If Kleavor base stats, Ability, movepool wasn’t so good I doubt it would see any shine at all. Look at Crustle.

[@BlameNate]

I hear you. But Kleavor's design is so damn cool.

[@HylianGamr1]

How good is Hisuian Decidueye right now? What is the best Hisuian form currently?

[@SeriousStriker]

Best Hisuian Form is Samurott's, but the best Hisuian Pokemon is Sneasler. H-Decidueye is not good.

[@agustinberto6138]

Most definitely samurott. Lilligant, Braviary and Arcanine see some use too in my experience

[@SwordOfBlueThunder]

H-Decidueye can be okay, but you have to significantly build around it in trick room, as you dont have a great speed teir naturally. Emvee did a video on it and it did pretty well

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

​@@SeriousStrikerUrsaluna is better

[@mipho5899]

​@@antoinepolnareff8970Ursaluna is Trickroom reliant and OU player started figuring out how to deal with it. It's not as good as Hisuian Samurott or Sneasler, it has but it has a major flaw in speed.

[@OlGibby]

I feel like scarf Kleavor just isn't ran enough. Having him able to u-turn on a prediction is pretty good and he has decent dmg vs the non fat ground types.

[@rogue1248]

That is why Hisui Samurott is the GOAT

[@HellryserDTH]

Allright but what about VGC

[@Trevie499]

Because no one is using fury cutter kleavor, it's overpowered

[@uwabamiJohnny]

Kleavor will probably do fine in the lower tiers, but still that typing is pretty terrible 😭

[@ashikjaman1940]

bro why tf does Rock type not resist itself

[@ThisIsntAYoutuber]

It’s funny. You’d think that Rock and Ice - both types based off solid objects - would be more defensively oriented. And yet they are both glass cannon types that have no place being on a defensive mon

[@ashikjaman1940]

@@ThisIsntAKZbinr meanwhile Fire has 6 resistances and 3 weaknesses. And Rock and Ice weren't even weak to Steel in gen 1, they just nerfed for no reason

[@Velune]

We can also talk about how Stone Axe also doesn’t work as intended. Half the time I use it in Scarlet & Violet the stealth rocks never get set.

[@jerry3115]

Your kleavor probably has sheer force, or rocks were already on the field and they can't stack

[@Squirtle_Squad_Supremacy]

Um, yes it does

[@antoinepolnareff8970]

First Sand is extremelly Bad, second better offensive type and offensive moveset and Third has better match ups with meta Pokemons

[@Gillespie28]

2 good defensive typings ended up better than 2 weak defensive typings? *shocked pikachu*

[@lordmonarch2995]

I have mixed feelings about this. They’re both good

[@dungeonxd355]

glimmora right now: AND ME? well kleavor its not the same thing than samurrott and stealth rock its not the same thing than spikes

[@echogaia1708]

You are just not using Kleavor right. You need to use Tera Flying Air Slash so that Great Tusk is koed without spinning.

[@yechanlee9325]

What a waste of a tera considering Hisuian Samurott can just do the same thing withiut using tera.

[@samsclub432]

Fr, specs psychic tera blast kleavor destroys tusk. Its just a skill issue

[@firewall5189]

​@@yechanlee9325the advantage kleavor has here is probably the surprise factor, since great tusk really hates staying in on hamurott, but otherwise agreed

[@flameback1]

Water is an OP type

[@newjerseyfan101]

Kleavor is cool af

[@endofline2000]

Kleavor is worse in every category except attack stat. Which doesn't matter when so many pokemon resist both your stabs. Kleavor has slightly better bulk which once again doesn't matter when it has virtually zero resistance(except extreme speed) water/dark is so much better both offensively and defensively that there's no reason to use kleavor.

[@soully9568]

Im not sure why people use aqua cutter over razor shell. 95% accuracy is still great, and its stronger and has a 50% chance to drop defense

[@dragonmasterxyz3544]

It's mostly accuracy. Some people value always hitting over a bit more power and a defense drop. Both have their merits depending on the player.

[@InsaneGarrison25]

Best with boosting item = Aqua Cutter Best without boosting item = Razor Shell Razor Shell’s extra power is essential on items like Choice Scarf as you’ll need all the power you can get. With a Band or Life Orb Aqua Cutters lower BP won’t mean much when your damage output will get enhanced by the item which lessens the value of a defense drop

[@tmg_ffrk4623]

If* samurott lands it’s attack 😂😂😂

[@hellofellowbotsss]

yay kleavor finally fell off now to go back to using mega lopunny in natdex ou so i dont get walled by it anymore

[@toxicmale2264]

Samurrot looks even cooler. I like it.

[@uberfiend2544]

666 likes . Your welcome. And awesome video

[@SoggyWafflesXp]

I wanted Kleavor to pop off…

[@grandempress1947]

Its a VERY good Pokemon in double battles funny enough

[@grandempress1947]

Its a VERY good Pokemon in double battles funny enough

[@SoggyWafflesXp]

@@grandempress1947 not really because of the fact that it’s super frail meaning it taking a focus sag and more importantly, glimmora has mortal spin.

[@grandempress1947]

@@SoggyWafflesXp Glimmora's almost entirely died off in this current metagame. And its not the pinnacle of bulk, but it does the job. Beats 3/4 genies and can pin down all 4 ruins, Hoopa, and does decently well into Flutter Mane. Rocks helps and not a lot is just walking around with spin. It also either manhandles Cresselia or immediately forces a Tera on it, which is pivotal for the TR and balance matchups. Scarf and AV are the most common sets, but sash utility has picked up some traction. It has options.

[@superstardoughball9822]

​​@@grandempress1947yet, this mon just feels worse regardless. As he meta develops, more counters to kleavor will be floating around and not even to counter kleavor, but other meta mons. Plus, kleavor can barely survive one good hit and that's pretty much it.

[@stephenveerasammy3074]

I bring AV samurott to ubers to take hits from kyogre

[@mintx1720]

It's shocking how many good pokemons H-Samurott either walls or threatens super effective damage with. There's almost no good pokemon that beats all its possible sets on lead and that's super annoying. Also why was Deoxys speed banned from OU again?

[@JustCallTre]

Honestly , dark types kinda rule this meta……

[@demoflower3583]

kleavor walled by everything vs samurott beats top pokemon

[@x2Scoop]

Samurott stays winning

[@austinsetser6081]

Easy fix, just give kleavor accelerock

[@artemfekel4964]

Why Kleavor is Bad? Rock type pokemon

[@BlackHanzo]

Bug just ain't a good typing scizor and volcarona backs hurt And Rock just sucks outside of 3 or 4 mons Water always meta and dark is too strong right now

[@xy394]

Dark is needed for dealing with Ghost. Kingambits ability to resist both Pult and Gholds STAB Combos plays a huge part in it's viablity. Also Calyrex Shadow is the most laughably broken pokemon on the planet and is banned to Anything Goes for a reason.

[@Ilikebugs2464]

Another bug L, a sad day indeed

[@user-sz6wo3in7k]

Kleavor is going to be VERY GOOD

[@theschnozzler]

Hello

[@CrowArk448]

First

[@demi-femme4821]

TL;DR: Spikes are better than Rocks this gen and Water/Dark is a better typing than Bug/Rock.

[@Blimaxx]

I hate Samurott so much