Why KNAVE RPG is Awesome! (Ep 254)

[@QuestingBeast]

Thanks for the review, Professor!

[@johnwaldrop8237]

System looks great, will buy from Drive Thru RPG today!

[@benvoliothefirst]

This is the greatest crossover since Damn Yankees.

[@modrell86]

I'm getting Knave 2e because of the Good professor here.

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Really excited to see what Ben does with the upcoming 2nd edition!

[@CrazyCodMusic]

There's a second edition coming? Fantastic news. Can't wait.

[@rpgsandmore7550]

Same here.

[@chrislefler3554]

@@CrazyCodMusic if you subscribe to his patreon, you can get every draft he puts out. It's looking *really* good so far!!

[@Smittumi]

@@chrislefler3554 has he changed the core rules, or just added new procedures and tables? (I'd prefer the latter, lol)

[@chrislefler3554]

@@Smittumi the core mechanics are mostly unchanged. There are some nice additions, though! *TONS* of new procedures and tables!

[@HouseDM]

If you haven't taken a close look at Knave yet, it truly is a master class in OSR game design. Ben knows his shit.

[@lindybeige]

Acting on this information, I just bought a copy. I approve of short rules sets. Brigandine is better protection than mail. These rules have it the other way around. Not a fan of the magic system. All magic is found as treasure, and many of the spells in the list are world-breakingly powerful, but a good GM can leave those out. I recall playing basic D&D and marvelling at how the PCs routinely beat many times their number of foes who were on paper a match for them. With a rules set like this, one might imagine that if there are five PCs, then an entire dungeon that was populated with five orcs, who had home-ground advantage, would probably be too tough.

[@robertwarren4734]

Regarding your statement about relative armor protection, it might be interesting to note that the 1990's PC game Darklands (Microprose), by most accounts acknowledged as quite well researched for its 15th century Holy Roman Empire (Germany) setting, has brigandine and chainmail as having equivalent protection (in DL terms, 'thickness') but brigandine was somewhat heavier, though less expensive. That being said, I am not an armorer nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express so I just offer this observation as a documented alternative perspective.

[@gedu7653]

Every kind of armor has its strong suits and its weak spots. I can see why brigandine would be better in most situations. But if you don't then just switch it around. You don't have to take everything in Knave at face value. Magic too strong? Tweak it a little.

[@ebrim5013]

Brigandine and chain can just be flipped. It’s what I did. 😅

[@jaredtalksdungeons1402]

I don't like the underlying context of, "a good GM can leave those out," as if a GM that allows such spells isn't a good one.

[@lindybeige]

@@jaredtalksdungeons1402 I take your point, but you misunderstand me. A good GM can make whatever changes may suit his game, whereas an inexperienced GM may feel that he should stick to the rules as written.

[@duskworkerdron5901]

Seriously, as someone who habitually makes his own games from scratch, the list of 100 levelless spells alone was worth the three bucks. Ben's an inspiration.

[@BigDaddyGoBoom]

Just yesterday my son who loves Shadowrun, but hates the crunchy system, tell's me how he's trying to do a 5e conversion. He swapped out Wis for Will, which he describes as concentration and focus. He's still using Dex for throw but Will for firearms. After thinking about for a minute I thought "Wow, that's pretty original. I've never seen that before." Now I find out it's already a thing. Still pretty impressed with him for coming up with it though.

[@CrusaderCool]

The best thing about Knave is it gives you a Word file that you can edit and add your own house rules to. I made my own Knave hack using feats and the explicit combat and encounter procedures from B/X. Making your ideal version of D&D is very rewarding, and Knave gives you a great framework to start with.

[@CapnSnackbeard]

His previous game Maze Rats had my favorite magic system of all time. I hacked it a little, but basically you randomly rolled the name, and negotiate the effect with the DM based on the name. For instance I had a player roll up Rend + Luck. When I asked him what he thought it did, he said "give a target disadvantage on a saving throw?" I said sure. Later, while chasing a saboteur who was climbing a rope to cut down their platform, his team mate fired a sling at the bad guy, and hit him for one point. The player asked "does he have to roll a savinig throw to hold on?" And I said "well hell yeah he does!" The baddie failed with disadvantage and plummeted to his death. The player was STOKED.

[@johnmickey5017]

That system was so flexible and awesome! I hacked it to add spellbooks - basically a different list of elements or effects depending on the spell type. Druid adds physical effects like Awakening, Fruiting, or Entangling. Bardic adds Ethereal Elements like Anger, Song, Legend. The Enchantment school added Bewitching, Charming, etc. Every time I see a non-MR spell system in OSR I shake my head, I don’t think it should have been abandoned. My hack was available publicly in the Google+ community that’s now gone…

[@CapnSnackbeard]

@@johnmickey5017 I hacked MR, but the spell system I used mostly as-is. My one innovation was merely by way of explaining how and why the system was so strange and random. I decided an ancient progenitor race left scant few magical artifacts arounds when they ascended, but most often found were childrens puzzle boxes. Each day, the box could be activated some number of times and the player would spend some time solving it in the morning. When they did, it would play unique psychic "chimes and whistles." The player could whistle or hum the notes and the spell woild be cast, erasing the tune from memory. A childrens toy for teaching magic to toddlers.

[@CapnSnackbeard]

@@johnmickey5017 Thats a cool idea, by the way. I may borrow that idea to make magic a little less random sometime.

[@johnmickey5017]

@@CapnSnackbeard clever way to explain the randomness. It makes sense at low levels but needs a good explanation once the character is more experienced.

[@CapnSnackbeard]

@@johnmickey5017 I just figured they get more spells. I'd like to revisit this with DCC magic over-roll charts, which are my other favorite. That could nicely address scaling without need to change how spells work at all. If random suits the game, of course.

[@hehhehheh4588]

3:17, Prof. DM rolled up BRIAN BLESSED!

[@benpuffer7891]

For the folks loosing their minds that Wis might be used for ranged attacks, it really isn't that strange once you move outside the dnd 5e echo chamber. Even in dnd's past Int was sometimes used for an armor bonus.

[@podrekreinhard]

The problem most people have with it is not that a different ability is being used, but rather WHY its used. His reasoning is entierly a game related one, to make Wis not "useless" compared to other stats. Same with using CON for carry capacity instead of STR. The reasoning for Wis to be used for ranged attacks applies equally to all attacks since it would be representing training and knowledge of the weapon rather than raw physical ability. But it doesnt do that. There is a reason the six abilities stuck, its not an echo chamber when it works well and almost every rpg that doesnt use them instead uses a renamed, split, or condensed equivelant.

[@ballelort87]

It makes perfect sense - perception is WIS, aiming and taking movement and wind etc into account totally is related to perception 💁‍♂️

[@podrekreinhard]

@@ballelort87 and that applies to melee combat and basically every rpg skill. By making it apply only to shooting and because of a desire to remove dump stats it makes little sense

[@markhill3858]

I think maybe .. this constant search for ways to make no stat a dump stat .. the problem is more that DnD has too many stats and we are all too attached to the six we cant see that .. cause weve all been trained for near 50 years to see those six as defining DnD more than anything else does. Those six tell you a system is an iteration of dnd, even gamma world or knights of the old republic are "dnd" because they use those six eh?

[@thomasparker6124]

The six ability scores have always been a hot mess of abstracting a very broad mix of traits that are dubiously connected in the real world whilst likewise ignoring things that are very much connected for the sake of simplicity. Wisdom is a weird combination of Willpower AND Perception/Awareness AND Common Sense/Intuition yet primarily is used by a class that should be focused on faith/piety Dexterity as a word primarily refers to hand-eye coordination but in D&D often more refers to physical speed, reaction time, agility etc And lots of physical abilities that rely on both arbitrarily use one or the other. "Athletics" vs "Acrobatics" being a prime example. Or how much archery relies upon upper body strength. Even the overlap of Strength and Constitution is odd, since OD&D from 1974 notes that "Constitution is a combination of health and endurance" - and in which case it makes sense for encumbrance and carrying capacity to care to come off both Strength and Constitution. and this isn't even touching Intelligence and Charisma Trying to fix either goes into a sensible but complicated using combined ability scores or the rabbit hole of "sub-ability scores" like the 2E AD&D Player's Options Skills and Powers with "Strength: Muscle" vs "Strength: Stamina" and we don't need to go there again.

[@midshipman8654]

Got to say Im a really big fan of its stunt mechanic which I think you forgot to mention. all non direct damage actions like tripping, stunning or pushing are stunts. Of course in other games these usually exist, but dont have one definitive name. I think this way, it encourages people, especially martials, to do more things then just “attack” Abd the really great part is that on a nat 20 you can decide to attack AND do a stunt instead if attack at advantage, which I think is just a fantastic and dynamic idea that makes martials more interesting without adding a whole bunch of faf.

[@RSanfins]

And most Stunts if successful may give you Advantage on your next attack since the game says that the GM may award Advantage when attacking an enemy that is disarmed, knocked down, etc. It creates a nice loop that encourages more than simply attacking.

[@bobhill-ol7wp]

Exalted did it years ago

[@CausticCatastrophe]

Ben Milton!

[@JLittleBass]

Deathbringer's jokes always get an instant "Like" from this guy

[@kylegreene1356]

Dearhbringer's style of 'no mercy' comedy would have killed it in the 80s. "What's the deal with thatched rooves? Don't those fool peasants know they're irresistible and fun to burn? And don't even get me started on the lack of highly trained standing army in their hamlet! Amirite?!"

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

@@kylegreene1356 Nice. Deathbringer May steal those.

[@thomasparker6124]

Knave is great, although I have even more fondness for Ben's other game Maze Rats and it's amazing two random words magic system. You can get both for less than a pint in most pubs. From the Patreon previews it looks like Knave 2E is coming along nicely.

[@kgoblin5084]

"Knave is great, although I have even more fondness for Ben's other game Maze Rats and it's amazing two random words magic system." I came down to the comments to say literally the same thing LOL. Maze Rats in general is a better mix-in because it has a wider range of tables, but it is ridiculous just how brilliant the magic generator was. Coolest thing is it can work both for spells AND schools of spells too.

[@Interfect727]

Well, you can use the Maze Rats magic system when playing Knave. I do.

[@edwardromero3580]

Both Knave and Maze Rats are excellent games. I use the quick charts to generate NPCs all the time. And either system make excellent games to take on the road.

[@invisibledooley]

I'm going to grab it if only because I spend way too much time and thought on generating hair colour, eyes, and clothing descriptions for NPCs, that's some custom DM screen stuff right there.

[@thomasparker6124]

I'd suggest you get Ben's other game Maze Rats as well, it comes with even more excellent random tables.

[@euansmith3699]

There are so many cool ideas in this game. I think that my favourite is the 100 levelless spells with simple, fun effects.

[@yeraycatalangaspar195]

As some one than started with BRP and 3.5, this really intrigues me, I done a lots of half hearted hacks for "class-less" d20, but this seems like an elegant way of what I wanted.

[@AyarARJ]

Love these RPG rule systems overviews. Good exposure and edifying.

[@Tony-nt5zd]

Knave has a lot of ideas that have carried over into my homebrew game

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

I love Knave. Great game, easy to hack and modify to your liking. I dislike advantage/disadvantage so I replaced it with a static +/- 2 and little changed overall. Doing that in 5e would have wreaked havoc on the entire system. I added simple Races and Classes (Elves have extra Wisdom but lower Constitution, Wizards always start with a spellbook) and it worked really well. If you don't know what OSR game to start with, Knave is a great choice.

[@kylegreene1356]

My party loves their PC's and as their DM I have greatly grown attached to them. I don't pull punches I roll in the open so if you get cocky and don't retreat you can pay by leaving the mortal coil. Magic is tweaked and there is no resurrection, not even by the divine. That said, this has made them very careful and conscious of their mortality. Now, Knave sounds like an awesome system to run between sessions to get their teeth cut on quicker death and wrest those 'tabletop training wheels' from their grasp. A much needed slow immersion into a world of life being cheap, characters being squishier and an overall grittier world. Awesome review and recommendation, as per usual. Thanks for bringing us the knowledge, yet again.

[@UnderArea51]

IDEA! Place on the floor a purple LED bulb light - keep to one color. The purple will "bouce" onto the background grey stone wall. This will provide slight retro EC comics / 80's fantasy films look and tone.

[@UnderArea51]

You could also have a second one on other side of pinks or greens light to blend with purples.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Ooooooo! That's cool! You level up. Thanks for watching!

[@razorboy251]

Can confirm! Knave and Maze Rats (both by Ben) are awesome!

[@1ccortez]

Quick note: Saving throws roll + bonus has to be over 15.

[@walterroche8192]

Oooooo.. nice!! Keeps the core of Olde School d&d, but smooths out some things. 👍🤘 Like that simplified item cap system and it can be expanded easily. May pick this up. 🙂

[@TheShadowKarl]

Bought it thanks to your recommendation. I like Ben a lot and I own Maze Rats and a lot of books he reviewed in the past. It was his magic system for Knave that interested me the most. Thanks for providing a fast overview.

[@timothyyoung2962]

Hell you could use this system to make a dark modern fantasy/paranormal/occult style game by just making a different gear table and a slightly different random character table. You could even add psychic powers as a version of spells.

[@Reaper-vv4qw]

That sounds like a great idea. I might be interested in trying that out.

[@Ben-eb9ji]

Love it! I am really waiting for the 2nd edition

[@cannastartover1720]

Excited to be watching a video, shortly after release!

[@andrewhaldenby4949]

At the very least, I’m taking the encumbrance rules. Ty Prof!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

I did too.

[@nordicson2835]

Looks really good , looking forward to using this system.

[@klinktastic]

was debating between Knave or IC RPG for starting a campaign for my 7 yo. Thinking Knave is simpler.

[@F2t0ny]

I'll probably buy this to indulge my curiosity about game design and inspiration.

[@keithkannenberg7414]

Rerolling initiative every round makes so much sense. It's initiative - you can gain it or lose it. Why would the order of action be fixed? It also allows for events or actions providing bonuses or penalties to initiative.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Yes!

[@doublekrpg]

"Thou err’st; no man calls me Lebowski. Hear rightly, man!-for thou hast got the wrong man. I am the Knave, man; Knave in nature as in name." Every time I see this game I recall my love of "Two Gentleman of Lebowski".

[@MemphiStig]

It's just like Frank sang, "In just seven pages, I can make you a Knave!"

[@hildissent]

Love Knave. I dig rules-lite D&D in general: "Black Pudding," "Obligatory Sample Rules," etc.

[@kylelinn1384]

I run 'We Deal In Lead" which is based off this system and is set in Stephen King's Dark Tower universe. Its my favorite character creation system

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Just got my Knave 2 postcard in the mail. Can't wait for the book to arrive.

[@sebastianstark8517]

This is an interesting take on the OSR. I will check this out. Thanks again, Prof!

[@rriosl]

I've seen Knave before but very on the surface, thanks to your review now I'm gonna take it to my table

[@Frederic_S]

At last! I own Knave and I am looking forward to play it one day. Hopefully soon. I would be happy to see a second edition one day. With some options for non-magic-users. Like the ones spells give only as pseudoskills to spark the imagination of newbie players.

[@chrislefler3554]

He's working on Knave second edition right now. If you subscribe to the Questing Beast patreon for $5, you can get every draft of the rules he puts out. He's up to draft 4 now, and it's *really* good!

[@noahdoyle6780]

Wisdom for ranged attacks is brilliant.

[@KadarianLord]

while I don't do grim and gritty I do love this idea for a very quick setup for a one shot or so for instance when someone cannot make it to game etc

[@samuelmora1468]

That traits table alone is a great tool to generate improvised NPCs

[@beowulfshaeffer8444]

I've had this for a while. I hope to use this if I can finally get my group to use something besides 5e :)

[@kylegreene1356]

Just suggest skipping a session because you want a change and don't wanna burn out, wether you're the player or DM wanting to try a new RPG isn't heresy. I'm sure you can pique some interest if pitched correctly. PDM basically just did it for you, show them the video! :)

[@Fwibos]

I like it. I think I would make one change. Like the On The Edge RPG, just adding 1 trait that gives you a +1 to certain specific circumstances. Just one, not multiples.

[@chrislefler3554]

Knave 2nd edition gives players 2 former careers that grant them bonuses to applicable non-combat checks.

[@DareToWonder]

7 pages is impresive

[@Acmegamer]

What a cool lightweight system. Went and snagged it thanks Dungeon Craft. :)

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

Wow, Deathbringer just called you the G.R.R. Martin of KZbin. :P

[@crapal9988]

Thank you for this discovery! Do you think it is possible to merge the hit points system with Knave system ?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Knave, including HP, is completely compatible with other OSR games.

[@In.Gy.]

Ah yes, Knave. Otherwise known as the Best System Ever.

[@lythnookwemin]

So the character rolled is a talkative Lurch. This game looks interesting. Thanks for this review.

[@dsan05]

Sold. This looks great!

[@sirguy6678]

Great review! Thanks!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Thanks for watching!

[@jakynth]

Big thumbs up from me, love Knave! Your actually a little behind the times Prof lol. I last played Knave like 3 years ago and Ben is actually working on a 2nd edition version right now.

[@crapphone7744]

You forgot to tell us how that sponge saves your character out of some ridiculous situation, because you know it's going to.

[@MarkWidner]

Have you taken a look at the RPG called Relic by Scott Wegener - atomic robo creator. It used Knave as inspiration. Pretty cool. Little more dense than Knave but I think fits into the same category.

[@josephbradshaw6985]

All Milton's stuff is great.

[@andrewshewan4551]

Hey Professor, this is off topic to the video but I always wondered why you haven’t created a Grimdark version of ‘Against the Cult of the Reptile God’ like you did with the Caves of Carnage series. I mean it’s a slow boil investigation into a cult that’s taken over the town that involves a fair bit of role-play in between the combats. I think it could be a really cool series or even see how you could condense it into a one shot!

[@ebrim5013]

I love Knave. The biggest challenge I had with it was wanting to use 1GP = 1xp using old school compatible material. But treasure designed around b/x advancement would really throw off Knave advancement. I never found a solution I was satisfied with and I don’t like subjective xp rewards from the referee… But everything else about it is fantastic.

[@chimericalsoundengine]

It's a great system and his adventure Waking of Willowby Hall is also excellent.

[@paavohirn3728]

Gonna have to take another look!

[@alexanderchippel]

It's fun and easy, and that's good, but I love really crunchy systems.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

That's cool. Check out my review of Warhammer FRP 4th.

[@blackraptor311]

Where can I find that Deathbringer miniature?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Hassle Free minis, UK. Fasters delivery to the U.S. of any overseas country I've dealt with.

[@blackraptor311]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I looked up the website and I think the miniature is discontinued. Unfortunate.

[@Sageofthedustypage]

You got me, shelled out my coin to purchase this cool product good review.

[@anthonygent6378]

Very interesting prof DM I subscribe to questing beast as I like the videos that Ben releases and have often wondered about knave

[@brentnorton1602]

Great video!!! I’ve gotten more interested in classless systems.

[@vodostar9134]

Looks like a really good system.

[@jamesreynolds1275]

Love it getting mine now!

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Cool!

[@Joshuazx]

I gotta get me some Knave.

[@raixuh]

This looks like the TTRPG I am writing, except I use only 3 atributes Interesting 🦉

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Sounds cool I may have to pick this up

[@geoffreynelson8012]

Gregarious clothing, discredited mercenary? A Landschnect!

[@markhill3858]

dang this sounds super streamlined and elegant .. possibly making many other budding retroclone writers (including myself) redundant :) How many streamlined retroclones does dnd actually need?

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

At least one more: Deathbringer RPG! My walk-through is coming.

[@markhill3858]

@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 well allright .. it IS Professor Deathbringer I guess I could watch that :)

[@mhovar101]

Looks awesome! Where is the craft though?

[@Tysto]

I like Knave for certain things. I've used the character looks and personality stuff, for example--especially good for NPCs. But a lot of the rules (like rolling more hit points) seem different for no particular reason (if you want hit points to end up being average, just award average hit points), and the one-spell-per-spellbook thing is silly.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

To each their own.

[@janfeinberg3825]

Looks great, thanks!

[@filipr8386]

I, perosnally, prefere rules heavy games, but the rules light do have aspecial place on my shelf just for them.In the end, both ways of handling a system is awesome, it just depends on the players

[@Emanemoston]

Thanks for the video.

[@JamesTheKoopaTroopa]

I wont even play an RPG if they don't specify the cost of loaded dice and a chicken - so good on them!

[@steelmongoose4956]

I missed the Knave 2E Kickstarter, so now I’m kicking myself instead.

[@e4224]

"The rolling mechanic will make most abilities start at 11/+1" -- err, no? Maybe I'm pedantic but 42% start at 11/+1, which means that on average only 2-3 of your 6 abilities start at 11/+1. The average starting ability score is 2 (averaging score*probability). "Requiring saves to exceed 15 means that new PCs have around a 25% chance of success" -- err, no again? Even taking the wrong assumption of most abilities starting at 11/+1 that's a 30% chance of success (a roll of 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 is a success = 6/20). It looks like a really interesting system (no skills, re-interpretation of abilities, optional player facing rolls, class-less, simple) though.

[@ballisticus1]

From a balance perspective, I get the wisdom buff/dex need, but wisdom is most synonymous with piety or good judgement--not hand-eye coordination. Seems like dropping wisdom as a stat would be simpler even if breaking a golden idol of DnD.

[@thomasparker6124]

Wisdom has been an very odd mix of Perception/Awareness combined with "Common Sense"/Intuition and Willpower. Much as dexterity is as often agility/speed as much as hand-eye-coordination.

[@benpuffer7891]

Wisdom is also associated with perception and interperting the body language of someone else. Two things that could be very important for an archer.

[@chrislefler3554]

Hand eye coordination is not the only thing that goes into shooting a bow. You have to perceive the enemy's movement and judge where they're going to be when your arrow arrives. So you have to shoot ahead of them if they're moving. You have to account for the wind. You have to account for the amount your arrow is going to drop by the time it reaches your target. You have to know where to shoot a creature to really hurt them. Hand eye coordinating is only a very small part of firing a bow in combat.

[@sayrebonifield4663]

Have you looked at the Cypher System?

[@knghtbrd]

Wisdom for ranged attacks? That's the one part of the whole thing that doesn't make sense. When I've got some time, I'll have to pick this up and have a look at Ben's explanation of what he's going for there. Otherwise I like it. I'm a big fan of what One Page Rules has done to Warhammer and conceptually I like what Microlite D20 does to D&D … it just doesn't feel like it quite works as-is. Maybe Ben's onto something that does. I _very much_ like the idea of a classless character that grows to be whatever you want them to be, but cannot be everything. Like I said, I'm short on free time for a week or two, but I'm saving this video to come back and grab a copy.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

You can always switch Ranged attacks to DEX.

[@markgnepper5636]

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

[@ClassicRollPlayer]

Wouldn’t you have to convert encounters and monsters to this as well when picking up an dnd adventure? I am about ready to run Lost City again, this might be a perfect new systme

[@thomasparker6124]

Yes but it's designed to be incredibly simple to translate. Notably Hitpoints, Damage, Morale is kept identical. Whilst Attack bonus is just equal to hitdice and saves are hitdice +10.

[@ClassicRollPlayer]

@@thomasparker6124 thanks!

[@sherizaahd]

Deathbringer telling me to get his T-shirt is wearing my resolve to not spend money down. Maybe in another 50 videos I'll have none left...

[@scottturner3831]

Wait what? This is 3 bucks!!!? SOLD!

[@migsmigs2425]

Check World of Dungeons. Far more simpler and gratis. Very hackable also.

[@simmonslucas]

Love the TTRPG YT community.

[@christophseel8757]

Finally 😎👍🏻

[@koolaidserpent]

I think you just rolled up Fafhrd.

[@messenger3478]

My copy doesn't have the Designer notes....

[@anhero2377]

Deathbringer bringing the bantz.

[@dhaisley]

Woot a new video!!!!!

[@Xaltotun]

Your character is pretty much the hound from game of thrones, but with more colorful clothes.

[@jarydf]

Knave is great. Thanks

[@kenyonelliott2628]

Been using a system from UA 3.5 that has the players roll for everything