Why Lidia Feels So Linear, and How to Counter Sidestep in Tekken 8

[@sesujin]

Lidia is one of the most well designed characters in the game, but that comes at a price. I've seen a lot of you talk about how linear Lidia is, and hopefully this video will help you deal with sidestep. Since this is a much more advanced topic, please feel free to leave any questions you have in the comments. Also, We'll be re-streaming VSFighting Tekken 8 top 8 later today, so feel free to stop by the stream at twitch.tv/sesujin

[@PurpleTurtle-t4q]

THANK YOU, this is by far my biggest struggle with Lidia right now, it's weird how everyone, no matter the rank, seems to know how to sidestep when it comes to her

[@sesujin]

Yes, I've noticed this too. It's strange how everyone has been intuitively sidestepping Lidia. I almost want to say that it's too easy to step Lidia, and people are doing it accidentally. The only thing I know for sure is she may be the only character where it is easier to step her than it is for her to counter sidestep, which is weird.

[@mercka4583]

her heat smash is on some special crack as well, just moves in a single straight line, but others like Dragunov and Paul's heat moves practically break their whole spine moving 180

[@sesujin]

I love the times where she moonwalks during her heat smash, it's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It might be the only move in the game with negative tracking.

[@tommywendt7196]

I noticed it with eddy as well, there seems to be a huge discrepancy between vanilla roster and dlc when it comes to 3rd dimension, let's wait for heihachi to confirm. Also, vanilla roster is in general way more linient in terms of off axis than eddy and Lidia. I like the honest tracking more, so hopefully they re work on tracking for the vanilla roster as well.

[@sesujin]

Eddy had a few moves with bonkers tracking on release (d/f1 and b1), but those things got fixed, and generally he's a lot more fair in this regard than other characters. There are a lot of instances in this game where the tracking with moves is clearly bugged, and they've been fixing these problems slowly. I've been hopeful that the lack of balance patches for the rest of the season is because they're overhauling the game's system and characters, and I really hope that the DLC characters is a sign of things to come in season 2.

[@Neffu2682]

These videos are so helpful. Please keep them coming. Thanks!!

[@sesujin]

Thank you! I've got more coming, just need to find the time to record them and get them out.

[@soogaroosh__]

Really been appreciating the Lidia content man! Also you are the most NY/NJ (?) sounding Tekken streamer out there, pretty sick 😁

[@sesujin]

The best part is that I'm actually from Michigan (no one believes I'm from Michigan)😄

[@ProjectCyborg8]

Really appreciate all your hard work dude I made it to mighty ruler for the first time!!!! Thank you again for your videos and passion 🙏🏽

[@leandrodavid6256]

I have improved a lot thanks to you! 😊

[@sesujin]

I'm glad I could help!

[@Harmonizeee]

You have been a godsend, you are the reason I went from Garyu secondary Lidia, to Kishin primary Lidia. I surpassed my own Reina, went further than my Raijin, im already close to Bushin, and can fight really well against my TK friend

[@sesujin]

That's amazing to hear, I'm really glad I could help!

[@jinkazama7587]

Master. I use the 1 jab and her "hell sweep" between the dash/ff2/fff2. Her d3 string is also underrated. For good to very good reads, her hop kick is unbeatable and could close games.

[@ejdale8472]

Bro i dnt know how to deal with players especially my mate when we 1v1 all the time whenever i get on stance i am simply countered by a jab or armour attack. Lidia seem easily interrupted.

[@blueye95]

earlier video covers this. Block more often after a stance transition and see what option they like to go for most often. Then counter based on that. jab/armor both lose to the stance lows and get CH launched (HOR 1+2 and CAT4). If the armor is a mid it should also be jab punishable (often they are -12/-13) and 1,2,2 -> CAT is a great punish into mix.

[@BlackStar300]

You gotta be smart on it. I'm destroyer rank but been death matching a person I met online that's shinryu and it's been pretty good for me and him. I get practice for the character and he gets free labbing too. You have to really know what your options are in stance and know when you can enter from your moves. It takes awhile and I'm nowhere near pro level and still mess up from time to time but after like 5 straight days of death matches I have a good understanding of her move list.

[@sesujin]

I really need to make a video about utilizing her stances and frames, it's really unintuitive and weird. To give you a very basic rundown, Lidia blocks after transitioning into stance on frame 9. This means that she is left open for 8 additional frames after a move that transitions is blocked, so you have to take whatever the frame data says on the move, subtract 8 from it, and that's how - you really are. For example, d/f2 says 0 on block, she can block on frame 9, so it's effectively -8. Other moves like hopkick say they're -5, so again if you subtract another 8 from that it's -13, like a normal hopkick. Also, the fastest move out of CAT is i13, so the opponent can inturrupt any attack you do out of CAT after d/f2 is blocked with a 12 frame or faster move. This is especially important when considering Horse 1. A lot of people will press a buttion after Horse 1 is blocked, but there is no frame trap here. It's only +1 on block, and the fastest move Lidia has out of Wolf is i15 (Wolf 2), so any i13 move or faster will inturrupt (meaning you can get hit with a magic 4 or CH grab for pressing). I really reccomend looking at this video for a more in-depth and advanced discussion on the topic, as there are options to counter the opponent, but the entire dynamic is very complicated: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXfJl2Cparujodk

[@BlackStar300]

@@sesujin adding on here this is why in heat parrying is your best option as it only takes 4 frames to enter HAE and parry if you feel a move is coming because you WILL NOT be able to block anything with you being in a 9f cool down unless you have good +frames. HAE is a really oppressive and defensive tool for her.

[@ejdale8472]

​@BlackStar300 my mate and i play for couple of matches 1v1 he is a very aggressive player he usually jabs to interrupt me i even try blocking after any stance or even the parry gets interrupted before i can get to parry by simply getting jab, his chac is devilJin dnt knw if that makes any difference. If says for example i did ff2 and he blocked it. I follow up with 1 them he just interrupr with a jab or armor attack with any any follow up if i try blocking i get hit as punishment from not committing next move

[@dronnovik95]

Fun stuff is that lidia probably most of all characters require to maximize your combo damage or cut it short for oki. Just coz it is such a bother to to get in after sending them across the screen after it

[@sesujin]

I'm seeing a lot of players starting to end their combos with d/f4~4 because of this, and it's really understandable why. Playing Lidia at long range just feels bad, and it becomes less about the oki (although it's still nice) and more about not leaving Lidia at a disadvantage after she finishes her combo. I personally don't mind getting the extra damage because I feel confident about my neutral play, but it's probably optimal most of the time to not finish the combo.

[@BeretBay]

Bro I am having a bigger issue. I'm struggling to play my main now that I've gone back. I'm in distress lol

[@sesujin]

I'm going back to Yoshi, who I thought was a god before because of the range on some moves like 3~4 for example, and now I just get depressed because it's not political storm.😅

[@nomology6482]

something i have discovered about lidia is that you can delay the attack in stance for a while. This might not be very special but some people try to read the cat and horse mix up to block and punish. i have tried in few people like those to use the stnce attack when the stance animation is about to finish so i coul get a glimps of their blocking position and the attacking at the exact same position where they are blocking, making them get out of their blocking position because of my delay and get the damage

[@sesujin]

YES, this is something I completely forgot to talk about in the video. Not only is this great at beating someone trying to fuzzy the mixup, but this will also allow some of your stance moves to re-align with the opponent. If the opponent step ducks to avoid your Horse mixup after ff2, for example, delaying Horse 2 will hit them after the step duck, but doing it immediately will result in it whiffing. It's a very important concept to know.

[@MarkoMagic]

@nomology6482 bro i did this too much against an azu and she kept just dick jabbing me outta stance 🤣 it was hard to break out that delay habit

[@edgeclops]

Lovely stuff

[@sesujin]

Thank you!

[@MVashM]

@29:00 d2 put you at -4 and you did i13 ws1. Kazuya had 17f to work with

[@sesujin]

The idea was to stop a wavedash mixup. It leaves me open to d/f2, but if I block d/f2 then I get full combo because of the wall. Also, it adds to the mindgame later in the match. If I do nothing, he'll be able to enforce his mixup on hit every time, which is really bad. If I show him that I'm willing to press after, then it forces him to make more decisions. It's not just about that one instance, it adds to the long term stratagy of the match.

[@stavros3676]

Yay im learning a lot about neutral with this

[@sesujin]

Neutral in this game is hard, I'm glad I can help!

[@dominationwarrior79]

useful, definitely best Lidia stuff

[@sesujin]

Thank you!

[@razzlemydazzlez2920]

@sesujin i wish you could have covered how to deal with sidesteps while in stance. I'm wracking my brain!

[@lycceto]

To give you the short answer: block. Long answer: If you're in Horse, you have 1 because it's homing, but it's high so a quick step&duck will avoid it so if you're not sure of it, block (EDIT: HRS3 is homing as well, but it's a slower and airborne so you can be floated out of it with a jab). If you're in Heaven and Earth, 1+2 will snapturn Lidia but you need to be very quick to catch them when they've started because she won't parry off-axis and a quick step&duck will avoid everything, so if you're not sure of it, block. Cat and Wolf have no tracking options, so unles you're significantly plus going into them (e.g. HRS4 leaves you +8 on block which makes everything from WLF unsteppable unless you're playing against Lili), block. Lidia's stance mixup can run people over if they're not prepared but ifthey're confidently stepping you in stance, assume they're prepared and don't do anything that puts you into stance unless you're guaranteed to not be blocked.

[@sesujin]

I do have a handy spreadsheet from my last video that goes over this with all of Lidia's Horse transitions: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gFUfRLmK7voGQgBJHwbULrzI1BGSP9BAB-oBZWOvxlE/edit?gid=1507227795#gid=1507227795 Unfortunately, it doesn't include CAT and Wolf, and I didn't include it in this video because it would have added an extra 10-15 minutes to this already long video, so I'm planning on talking about this when I make a more basic stance guide. To give you the rundown, though, when you go into Wolf at +8 (so off of Horse 4 or CAT 4), the opponent can only sidestep Wolf 1. Wolf 2 will hit them no matter what, and I think only Lili can sidestep Wolf 4, but it will hit every other character. As for CAT stance, the only move that will track sidestep after a blocked d/f2, for example, is CAT 4. Every other move will lose to SSR, except for a delayed CAT 3. This is one of many reasons why it's really important to block and not force the mixup, especially if the stance transition is blocked. All of your CAT transitions that hit, though are usually so plus that the opponent cannot sidestep at all. The only excetion I know off the top of my head is WR 42, where the opponent can step CAT 1 and CAT 2 on hit.

[@Knut92]

can you make a video for Okizeme with Lidia, please? She has quite a bunch of knock downs.

[@sesujin]

I will add it to the list, thank you for the suggestion!

[@nightE89]

Lidia is definitely an honest character……till Coda…..I mean HaE stance lol. But seriously playing with mental frames and delaying attacks is a key with her and have helped me out. Can’t play full unga bunga

[@sesujin]

Oh my god you did not just call the HAE stacks coda (although you're 100% right, Horse 2 into unblockable is exactly the same as Tira's soul attack into GS SC 6A+G)

[@nightE89]

@@sesujin there’s a lot of moves that Lidia has that are Tira’s moveset or feels just like it. Df3+4 - gs 4A+B Ff2 - JS 6B Db3 - js 236k Tooo many similarities lol

[@truerefuge5227]

A lot of typical rando lidia gameplay HaE mixes are actually fake. How fake depends on character -> a lot of characters have options that beat 2 out of 3 options, azucena can sometimes just beat all 3 (ignoring some HaE mix setups entirely), and a lot of oB into HaE pressure can be ss or sw'd.

[@blazingswaggod]

This is totally non lidia related but one of my issues in tekken is dealing with someone dick jabbing a lot especially on offense, the opponent will do a safe string and immediately mash dick jab. I have idea on how to counter it and hop kick is definitely one of them but it’s very high committal especially if they’re mixing up the dick jab with side stepping etc. Also not to mention I’m fighting Tekken kings and higher that play like that it’s frustrating fighting against a play style like that. What would you recommend against play styles like that or maybe you could make a video on it.

[@sesujin]

Ooo this is a great question. There are three things I really reccomend. First, remember that dickjab is a special low, meaning you can low parry it. If you're throwing out hopkick as a read on a dickjab, a lot of the time it's going to be safer and more reliable to low parry instead (there are acceptions, of course). Second, dickjab can be suseptable to good spacing and movement. If you backdash out of range and it whiffs, you can get a big punish on it. Same with sidestepping it, dickjabs are the one move in this game that doesn't track for no reason. Third, remember that blocking a dickjab means the opponent loses their turn. Usually people are going to dickjab because they don't want to deal with your offense anymore. If you instead are able to stop your offense on your own terms, not only does that give you oppornunities to use your turn for things like positioning, but the opponent's dickjab wastes their turn, and allows you to start your pressure again. Law's d23 is an extreme example, but just think of the ways you beat that. Mainly, you do it through either spacing or patience, and I think that carrys over to generic dickjabs as well.

[@blazingswaggod]

@@sesujin thank you so much man i appreciate you replying

[@KhadimCreation]

thank you Sensei (Y)

[@sesujin]

No problem!

[@SunlessSoul505]

b4 should be plus on block with chip damage. also CH b4 gives a free df3

[@sesujin]

I agree, it's pretty normal for homing moves like b4 to be plus AND do more on normal hit, so why not Lidia? (I guess because of qcf4 but that move's much too slow because of the qcf input).

[@MarkoMagic]

hi sesujin, i hope this isn't out of left field, but I'd love for you to react to some of my gameplay and let me know what you think. your video's have helped me tremendously, i appreciate it

[@sesujin]

I've had quite a few people requesting this, and it's impossible for me to get to everyone, but I want to help as much as possible. Feel free to comment your Tekken ID, I'll try to throw some of your games in a replay review video I'm planning on doing sometime this week.

[@MarkoMagic]

@@sesujin 38bh-ni47-j3iB, my matches against the flame ruler kazuya are probably my best. also a set against a tenryu kuma who sent me hate mail calling me boring so thats a fun one to analyse im guessing lmao

[@Danshadow]

22:30 gonna start using this against hwo. Whiff into backlash is so annoying

[@ims0raw4u]

d312 is good too.

[@sesujin]

d312 is high risk but can be extremely good in certain situations. I see a lot of other Lidia players use the move but I personally don't use it that much, definitely should try it more.