Why Poi Spinning is Not Juggling

[@ZakMcallister]

Drex just deleted a thread on here that had 4 separate criticisms. Instead of just clearing things up he deleted them..

[@DrexFactor]

I'm pretty sure I haven't deleted anything. What were the comments you're seeing missing?

[@ZakMcallister]

@@DrexFactora guy named Leonid made a comment saying this video came off as passive aggressive, then there was a couple comments about that, followed by 2 comments giving personal stories about issues with your ego. I don’t remember what they said exactly so I won’t speak for them

[@DrexFactor]

@@ZakMcallister Ah! Mystery solved! I frequently block people who engage in purely ad hominem attacks in my comments. It appears that when you do that, KZbin also deletes the comment. Didn't mean to delete their comments but that's good to know going forward.

[@ZakMcallister]

@@DrexFactorthat’s not really any better, his comment was more respectful than the energy behind this video. Deleting and blocking is just a sign you can’t answer for anything. If you took that as an attack, then I would take this as an opportunity to emphasize with everyone in this comment section

[@Inverted1]

​@@DrexFactorYou also expect us to buy that your a pro content creator and don't know how KZbin works Lol

[@dianamamalis9999]

I think Drex is going to need to swallow his ego with this and concede he didn’t know as much as he thought he did. A level headed person would read these comments on insta fb and YT and realize they screwed up, and would be greatly respected in doing so. It’s videos like this that make Drex the center of his own universe where he is the hero, which he desperately wants to be

[@Regular_Ben]

IJA is run almost 100% by unpaid volunteers. If you want a change in the IJA please consider volunteering or getting in contact with them to write whatever articles youd like to see published. Id love to learn more about poi!

[@leannemartin162]

The “A Little Respect” segment of this video makes my stomach turn. Hearing him say ALL of that about community members and then turn around and ask for respect is disgusting. This whole video reeks of self righteousness and is very clearly not hitting the mark. :/

[@soysauceandseasonedsalt8418]

There are definitely debatable parts of that poster when it comes to the flow arts section, so I understand the thread about how poi/ flow artists 'fitting in' to circus is not always perfect. With that being said, I found it EXTREMELY distasteful the way you called her out so immaturely for selling a poster that she worked hard on. There's a big difference between using a story to prove a point, and airing your personal drama. You're on the wrong side here. There's absolutely no reason to share screenshots of her social media. Amanda happens to be our friend, and we have that poster on our fridge.

[@jaygilligan]

Hey! Thanks for listening to the podcast, really appreciate it!

[@DrexFactor]

Ah…you’re welcome, I think? That wasn’t your one and only takeaway from all this, right?

[@bolando4235]

😂

[@marekresch5766]

Some trolls never die

[@ThePianoChannelonline]

As a european I can tell you that we juggle/flow with each other in total harmony. Also, the circus for adults I've been to (Zirkus Nock) used Poi in their show (mostly simple moves like windmills ect). People flow at juggling conventions, and they juggle at flowarts convention. In the end, it's about having fun together and not creating division.

[@DrexFactor]

I believe that it's possible have fun together and still see and respect each other's differences. As I state in the video: I admittedly do not have great visibility on the European scene (and many people have advanced the same thesis that you have), but given that poi appears rarely if at all in positions of respect for jugglers even in Europe (ie, the Top 40 Jugglers list has only ever featured 2 poi artists in its 21-year history) I suspect that "we juggle/flow with each other in total harmony" really means "poi spinners have resigned themselves to a position at the bottom of the juggling social hierarchy".

[@vivianhymer90]

Came here to agree piano's comment... I'm in America and I have friends that throw poi, juggle, etc, including myself. We all consider ourselves flow artists. Then I saw Drex's response about 'hierarchy'...? And now I'm concerned for his well-being 😂

[@TheCatchingMachine]

Kia ora koutou, Let’s be real. The kind of poi you do today is barely attached to Māori culture and most Māori would agree that poi these days vaguely resembles poi but has been heavily westernised. Where is the waiata? Where is the meaning? It’s not just a trick display, it’s how we tell our stories and pass on our culture. Note. two of the videos you used were haka, not kapa haka. Kapa haka is a display of culture and it includes poi. It’s not where poi is from. For real, it sucks to see my culture being wheeled out to win an argument but here we are. As a Māori, I am happy with the acknowledgement that the new version of poi has been heavily influenced by the trick collecting mindset of Juggling culture and in my opinion closer to Juggling then it is to traditional poi. It seems like you are trying to associate with a past you had nothing to do with in an attempt to ignore the present that you created.

[@soysauceandseasonedsalt8418]

I just want to say I'm disappointed that Drex hasn't replied to you in either of your interactions with him. Thank you for your input.

[@TheCatchingMachine]

Thank you. I appreciate you saying so.

[@abarusso]

THANK YOU! It had to be said! I love that he points out how weak and flawed the etymological argument is (juggling = ioculare = entertaining with tricks) when he keeps doing JUST THAT when it comes to the origins of poi.

[@DrexFactor]

Hey, I appreciate your comment here! First up, thank you for the correction on Haka vs Kapa Haka and that's absolutely an insensitive mistake on my part. I've been trying to learn more about poi's roots and clearly I have a lot more work to do. If you have a good resource you know of that explains the difference I'd really appreciate being pointed in the right direction. Otherwise I'm happy to try to find other options to learn more. Second, I definitely hear your points on the Westernization of poi. It's definitely been drained of meaning and taken into a radically different context. If you'd do me the favor of this, I would actually be curious to see if I can get some clarification on a couple points, though. My intention wasn't to to claim to be the heir to Māori tradition, but that I see a lack of acknowledgement of Māori roots in the discussion around poi and its relationship to juggling. Am I correct in my perception that your position here we should remove Māori influences from the discussion of poi and what artform it belongs to? That it's drifted far enough away from its cultural roots that it makes more sense to simply ascribe it to another modern phenomenon? I'd love to find ways to better honor the roots of the props, but if I'm simply barking up the wrong tree by even trying that would be helpful to know.

[@TheCatchingMachine]

The difference is kapa haka is a performance. A choreographed cultural display featuring many elements of our performing arts. See Te matatini. Haka is more of a ritual. Eg the All Blacks haka you used is a challenge. It could be in a kapa haka performance, but it is not from kapa haka. See what I mean? For you clarification, I personally consider many of our arts juggling related. Poi, which we’ve already discussed but also mau rakau which is closely related to staff and te rakau which has very similar elements to pass juggling. All are clearly related to their current counterparts . However they are used differently. All used with song (waiata) to share our stories and history. we have no written history, our history is passed down orally through our reo from person to person. Re: honouring the roots. Be careful and respectful. We have been colonised and our culture has been stolen, its is incredibly bad taste to use our culture in the context of trying to win an argument. Don’t do that. If you want to make a video about weather Māori consider poi to be juggling then that would be one thing. But using our culture for your benefit feels like appropriation.

[@grabthewall9740]

I’m glad we can all finally come together over how horrible the contents of this video are

[@Kaiasky]

"Drex make a video about another related skill without coming off sounding like he hates it" challenge, difficulty level: IMPOSSIBLE :/ But more sincerely. One time I was talking to a guitar player and they said oh, seeing you spin poi made me realize that you're basically playing a silent musical instrument". and like, not really, right. There's differences! But the key is, the thing they were *really* saying is, 'I've put 1000 hours hurting my fingers so my fingers can move effortlessly and create something beautiful. You've spent 1000 hours hitting yourself in the nuts so your arms can move automatically to create something beautiful. I understand you better now'. Some people got into poi through circus and juggling, and bring a juggling approach to their craft. Others got into it through raves or Maori culture. When a juggler says "poi is a juggling prop" they're either saying "poi feels like my other juggling props, in that I want to get better at doing awesome things with it" or they're saying "i feel like I understand poi spinners and they understand me, because we're both the kind of crazy to spend tons of free time learning to manipulate props." I recognize that sometimes people are dicks but like.... some folks are just dicks, it's not about the prop

[@Kaiasky]

There's a tendency in the fringe and juggling to see this unity between all kinds of "useless" skills practiced to perfection for performance. I forgot who it was, but I remember someone insisting that "carving a turkey swiftly and perfectly" could be juggling. And like, that's the kind of expansive definitions I really enjoy, because it spurs us to see connections in the world. Like... if I'm chatting with a cardistry person or a yoyo person or even a tetris player, we don't share any tricks but there's like, a shared appreciation, a shared "oh, you're obsessed with something, too?" feeling that makes me feel at home in their presence. (I also think that circus events are generally a little more sober than festival events, which is something I appreciate as a person who's staying sober RN.)

[@lukeburrage]

Just wait until devilstickers start demanding a spot in every Top 40 Jugglers list, and watch out for cigar box jugglers demanding a slot in every EJC gala show!

[@badwhisk3y]

HEY!!! Box jugglers are jugglers too

[@lukeburrage]

@@badwhisk3y Just don’t ask where they rank in the juggling hierarchy

[@omerlewy]

Hey Luke, I don't think he aimed at any point to reserve spits for poi spinners. While. I don't agree with a lot if the poibts he makes, I don't think this was one of his points.

[@DrexFactor]

The horror!

[@lukeburrage]

@@omerlewyThe video is so terrible, and the opinions so badly expressed, that it’s not worth a serious response. So: a joke.

[@bow8901]

You cannot compare yourself with Luke burrage , both top40 and top10 where personal project, one done by someone with a bigger amount of following than the other , so obviously you got more views than Luke. Also , you cannot use big Apple circus and cirque du soleil and EJC to measure the growth of circus , it’s just not enough to have a solid Analysis. The circus scene has wayyyyyy more things going on than those 3 things.

[@DrexFactor]

Like I said in the video...metrics on the topic are pretty hard to come by. If you or anybody else wants to assemble the metrics to make a counter argument, I'd love to see them. I did look up where Luke and I both were when the two projects were published on the Wayback Machine internet archive. 2 days after publishing my video I was sitting at ~2700 subs. The Wayback Machine puts Luke at just over 2K subs 2 years later, so yes it certainly seems likely I was at least a marginally bigger channel at the time. My video got 210 times the traffic that Luke's did, though, and he absolutely had more than 12 subscribers at the time (the earliest snapshot I can find for his channel is 573 in 2010), so clearly the size of the channel cannot be the only variable in the different performance of the two projects. But let's back up a step...because that section of the video covers a possible answer to the "why" of what I'm exploring here. Whether indeed Circus and Juggling were truly on the decline or not, does that have an impact on whether juggling assigns a hierarchy to the value of different props and whether it's actually in the best interest of poi spinners to engage in spaces with jugglers when they're going to encounter the types of microaggressions I document here?

[@omerlewy]

That's a silly argument. You know why your video has more watch count? Because you are a category leader. And wuth the amount of juggling content, whilst Luke ia pretty well known, he still is just a small sample of juggling content creator. So thr fact that you "rule" a category, and Luke doesn't, doesnt mean that juggling is in decline or that the **toss** juggling in in decline (again - you are shrinking the definition of what juggling is)

[@MLR0220]

Stop calling things micro aggressions that aren’t targeted toward marginalized people, you claim to be an ally, and then incorrectly use terms in order to try and strengthen the emotional side of your argument, and in doing so, it shows a lack of understanding of rhetoric, and to me, that points to a larger issue of how any of this should be taken seriously when you argue with fallacies.

[@MLR0220]

Also, as a cis white man, the likelihood of you personally ever experiencing a micro aggression is so negligible that it makes sense your understanding of the nuanced definition is so limited. Please just do everyone a favor, and admit to the mistakes you’ve made here. When huge parts of the community you claim to speak for are telling you that you aren’t representing our actual values and opinions, you double down on the gate keeping nature of your argument, instead of validating the legitimate concerns of the rest of us.

[@evanmiller5803]

Flow arts/dance/prop manipulation/juggling/creativity in general are tools for the expression of self, to connect with life, to grow, and to most importantly have fun. The flowstate is a state of surrender. In order to fully surrender to the flow or moment, one must learn to release the ego or thinking/judgement mind. I encourage you to ask yourself whether this video inspired others to dance/flow/juggle/create/to be more themselves/to learn about that state or whether it was done for ego gratification. This isn't a personal judgement, but a real honest question I think you should ask. Life is too short to argue over semantics, and I know, atleast for myself, that I spin poi/juggle because it makes me happy and I love dancing and having fun with my friends regardless of what they are doing or how they label it. I do it because it teaches me discipline, it makes me better and makes me better to others, it transmutes my emotions into beauty, and it makes me feel free. Worrying about stuff like this only sucks the joy out of what you are doing in your life and it definitely distracts you from what is important when it comes to self expression/creativity/dance/poi/juggling/etc. And lastly, dont take for granted that you are able to do something that you love as a part of your life path. Instead of arguing semantics, I encourage you to remember why you spin in the first place and stop worrying so much about others. You could spend all that energy creating and connecting with your own flow. Im only saying this because I feel like you have good intentions, but it also feels like it's taking away from the point of it all in the first place. I' m from North Dakota, though. There aren't a lot of us up here, so we all support each other regardless of prop for the most part. Just a friendly reminder that it is more important to find the joy in things than finding the bad. If you do the later too much, you might end up accidentally hating the thing you love and pushing away the people that love yoi for doing that thing. 💜

[@nat_the_gray]

As someone who has never heard of Poi before getting recommended this video randomly: this is one of the funniest things I have ever seen on KZbin. I don't really have anything to add obviously. I just wanted to let you know that you have cheered me up with this absolute tomfoolery. What the hell is wrong with your recommendation algorithm KZbin? I've never even so as much as glanced at a juggling video before this.

[@ZakMcallister]

Hilarious, welcome to a niche community, this guy is a clown, I promise this is not normal

[@Taco_Juggler]

That's freaking hilarious 😂 you definitely stumbled upon some heated drama. You should try juggling sometime, it's super fun!

[@ZakMcallister]

Either way just stumbling onto this video like that is wild

[@Cyrik]

This comment is Gold

[@bolando4235]

​@@ZakMcallistereyyy! You owe apologies to the clowns!! Don't compare pleases 😢

[@ZakMcallister]

This is hard to watch. Over 100+ hours of scripting, video editing, and drafts upon drafts and you didn’t once think this might make you look bad? I acknowledge the dedication that comes with working on projects like this, but the video doesn’t feel like a passion project, but an attack on every other community surrounding your own. To top it off, you continue to take clips out of context and keep posting daily tutorials without addressing any of the backlash. God tier cringe, this is insufferable. You owe a lot of people apologies

[@cmacspinz]

Drex would rather separate himself from juggling rather than join them. Its as if jugglers are the “dark side” in his eyes. The amount of time spent editing on this could have gotten him at least to a 3 ball tennis pattern

[@sophieshapeless3901]

Thank you for being you and speaking up

[@jongler_arjun]

@@cmacspinz :X Hahhah 3 ball tennis

[@chriskellypoi]

“In the beginning Ronan created the head and the handle” Contact poi was invented at a juggling convention in 2007. It has dual citizenship.

[@johnnyhoward2313]

This 100%

[@MrChutney]

Poi with handles existed independently of contact poi.

[@jimmorrister8579]

Common drex L, my question is if he causes division on purpose or is just so dense he doesn’t listen to his audience or feedback anymore? Definitely doesn’t seem to think he is ever wrong

[@sophieshapeless3901]

Amanda Gatewood doesn't contribute to the community for money, or clout. Also an amazing person; a part of my circus community. You are out of line including her work in this video. Shame on you.

[@thd3119]

What a train wreck

[@cascadiancadian]

Stick to the beginning tutorials instead of creating division among artists

[@badwhisk3y]

I think he needs to get better at the basics first. His planes suck and he's altogether sloppy

[@DrexFactor]

I dunno...people have been complaining for years about me creating beginner content, too. Kinda seems like the complaining is going to happen regardless.

[@chriskellypoi]

⁠@@DrexFactorso just quit

[@chriskellypoi]

@@DrexFactorso just quit.

[@JerrySmith-e2q]

@@chriskellypoi this is the exact type of comment i would expect from someone who looks like you

[@BioshadowX]

"If that doesn't describe the relationship between poi and juggling, I don't know what does" - this is I think is the biggest flaw in you consistently conflating and intercahnging terms here. I tangentially know Amanda and while she is a a fabulous juggler, as I know her she is first and foremost circus. Wheel and clowning, two EVEN MORE looked down acts than poi. Ascribing her to represent the juggling world feels very, very wrong and makes me question where and who else the conflation of terms throws into question.

[@nachtfuchs7711]

TLDR: I am a european who comes from toss juggling but has switched to do mainly flow. My tossy friends tease me with the inferiority of flow but they don't mean it. Context: -I live in Germany, identify with the european scene and go to EJC's -I go to a weekly local meetup where there are mostly toss jugglers and Diablo Players (real good ones too) -I am in the Juggling and Flow scene since 9 Years. I did Balls and Clubs, Devilstick, Cigarboxes, Dragonstaff, Staff, Dapo Star, Diabolo, Kendama, Cardistry etc. and POI🎉 -I got to a very decent level with every material but with poi I went way further up the skill curve/tree and I am still going. I am going for a Jonathan Alverez style of 3-4 poi, minus the gunslingers rn. I don't throw my poi that much. My latest achievement is onehanded mercedes Vs extension. Now that you know my background, here is my opinion: Originality, difficulty and mastery exists in every prop manipulation and it is all worth exactly the time you put into it. I do think it's a problem, when people can't tell, who is a master of their craft and who is a beginner, because beeing good at something is the right to sell shows and beeing booked. If everyone could do it, there would be no appeal to it, so it hurts the craft if it looks like everyone could do it. To me things are impressive because I can't do them and somebody spent a whole lot of time on it. This also is why I think the hierarchy in the juggling world exists. Because People don't recognise hard work when they see it. My toss juggling friends always tease me with the inferiority of poi and sometimes I play along but sometimes I'm like: Well if it's so goddam easy, let's see, if you got just 1% of my skill and if you can do a basic one-handed butterfly. I'm not asking for a one handed mercedes after all. They know it's fucking difficult and are scared to admit it XD After that they leave me alone for a while. I do think the respect is there and they just like to tease me because: I got invited by the same ppl. to do a Gala act and I totally fascinated an old siteswap nerd, who is a theoretical physician, about tech poi patterns.

[@chriskellypoi]

Poi spinning is just active 2s.

[@cmacspinz]

Best comment

[@chriskellypoi]

I think part of the reason poi wasn’t immediately included as a juggling prop is because everything involved active 2s at first. It was actually really difficult to discover new juggling patterns because siteswap didn’t easily cross over. Every base cascade was 4x2 No beat juggling is what allowed siteswap to open up with poi. This is also when it started to become widely accepted by jugglers.

[@chriskellypoi]

Poi juggling wasn’t too visually pleasing for a long time. It felt more like juggling poi rather than just juggling. I learned to juggle with poi. Idk what that makes me.

[@chriskellypoi]

Flow Arts was also marketed to be non-competitive. Seeing people exploit the non-competitive nature of flow arts via tech mapping and juggling created a difference in approach. “I don’t do tech, I just flow” “I’m a poi juggler” Flow arts was intimidated by the mapping of tech tricks. They were also intimidated by poi juggling. Poi juggling wasnt attractive to a lot of jugglers for many years because it was unrecognizable. It looked like someone just “flowing” rather than juggling. It was almost gimmicky because there were few patterns. Poi juggling was only a few patterns for a long time.

[@chriskellypoi]

Then the goal became to impress the jugglers. The only poi juggling classes for years were intro to poi juggling.

[@amiewaters8086]

This is damn embarrassing 🤦‍♀️

[@DrexFactor]

I imagine so...for all the jugglers whose microaggressions I document here.

[@lamista2655]

@@DrexFactorAlso for people appearing in the video without them knowing...I know it is from public source , but stil weird to be even slightly connected with this fake drama

[@Kaiasky]

@@DrexFactor Putting all the juggling/flow stuff aside... I really don't think we aught to be using the language of social justice in this way. Juggling and flow are both hobbies, they're not like race or sex or religion where there's long histories of societal discrimination that are structurally reinforced (in part) by said microaggressions. (Especially given the ways that the poi community can be a hostile environment to marginalized people, which I know you care about a lot.) Like, if somebody doesn't like my favorite book and says I'm pretentious for liking it, I might think that makes them "a jerk" or "not somebody I'm interested in being friends with", but I think it's a different thing than making the accusation that they're contributing to a structural inequality. Or similarly, I think it's sexist that women's athletes receive so much less pay and recognition than their male counterparts, but I don't think it's volleyball-ist that volleyball pros make a lot less than football pros. I still think it sucks--I love volleyball and wish that it was every bit as celebrated as football, but I don't think we should treat that as a social justice issue! I recognize this is important to you, but I think it's a stronger argument if you step back and disentangle this from the social justice aspect.

[@MeghhanTron]

@@DrexFactor yeah wow you are one classy person! We are unheard_voices_juggling know better than to leave names up. Someday you too can learn!

[@chriskellypoi]

Cringe is feeling embarrassed by someone else’s content.

[@emilym2149]

Only a few years into juggling, but from what I’ve seen at my local juggling club this is just an elaborate joke about the inability to make a hard boundary in language. Someone could do something as simple as answer a flip phone, and one of us will call out “was that…juggling??”. And of course everyone will agree technically yes because there’s no good spot to draw the line so everything gets included. If someone disagrees, then they give a definition and we all call out counter examples that speak to them in order to move their line. The important thing here for me is that we also make these jokes about poi and other props. Recently we were making a lot of jokes about how everything is poi, and everything is acro. In the flow and juggling communities I’ve been in, I’ve only seen it as a 2-way joke slightly more common in juggling spaces. I’ve never seen it as trying to be the overarching term to eliminate or put ourselves above poi. I have however picked up on a lot of tension between the communities from members who have been around for a long time.

[@emilym2149]

On the same note, when I first started attending the local fire jams, I got a number of weird comments from people. I showed up with many props and alternating using them all, but I was new at lots of them and best at juggling. At least 5 people came up to me in my first 2 months and said something along the lines of “I just want you to know, that I actually think it’s really cool that you are here…juggling” or other weird ominous things that implied it was not cool that I was juggling in the flow centered space, even though it’s a fire jam and I had torches??? I would ask them what they meant and nobody could really answer. One person responded “oh you know, the humble man’s prop”, others would bring up a history of hate between communities, and others would tell me about how juggling is not flow but they appreciated when I did my club spinning and traps/legos tricks. Weird vibes for sure between all the different object manipulators. We are all doing different things with blurry lines separating us that are too hard to draw in the sand. That’s the joke. Everything is poi, if you try to make a hard line definition otherwise, we will find a counter example that makes your definition feel too rigid.

[@DrexFactor]

And as a Juggler, there's no reason that you would have heard anyone put it down--you're not doing the thing they want to put down, after all. I do think there's a deeper question to explore there as to why the juggling community is in this moment where there's an active attempt to describe as many things as juggling as possible. I'll be honest that I'm not at all sure what's motivating that and it certainly doesn't begin or end with poi. As for the reality of poi being put down...I've documented plenty of instances of it in this video and these are just the examples that someone got caught on video or audio saying. There are countless others I've heard face to face that never got recorded and were impossible to document in this fashion.

[@emilym2149]

@@DrexFactor I do spin poi also, I actually started spinning before I started juggling. Not trying to diminish or underplay any moments where poi spinners have been put down. I’ve first hand seen both communities imply or directly say that (fill in the blank with any prop) is inferior. I think this behavior is so stupid and devisive, and for some reason specifically bad between “circus” and “flow” props. As a member of both, at least in the Denver scene, I don’t interpret the “everything is juggling” commentary as the main crux of the harm being passed back and forth. I’ll have to reflect on when and how I participate in these interactions and I appreciate your video talking about it. I just wanted to share that I see it as the same way musicians are artists, even though visual artists are just called artists. And we can call anything that makes noice music. And as a mathematician I’m always trying to highlight anything my students do, even physics or computer science as also being math. I’m never trying to diminish physics, or force it as a subset under math. I’m trying to be inclusionary and help my students identify ways that they are also mathematicians. They don’t have to identify as a mathematician, but I’m inviting them to, even though they don’t do math the same way I do. Whether Im spinning poi or juggling clubs, I could easily argue that I’m both juggling and spinning in either case, and for the matter also being an artist. I’d love if I had a bridge that helped me feel comfortable going between communities instead of people making weird comments to me for juggling. Personally recognizing that all of it is “juggling” or more precisely “object manipulation” is what helped me feel comfortable going from spinning at juggling club to spinning at flow jams where people look at me weird. Our juggle club is at minimum 30% flow props each week. Versus a whole bunch of weird looks and comments at flow jams when i switch props and I pull out clubs. Maybe this is where the “everything is juggling” comes from. Jugglers who just want to go to a flow jam and not feel like they don’t belong

[@seetheflow]

​@@DrexFactor Assuming that Emily didn't do poi and it was therefore safe to dismiss her experiences because she's a juggler is just another comment highlighting your narrow views. Like, I get it, you want to feel special cause you're doing something different and a part of a counterculture, but you're really not doing your argument justice either with the video or your responses.

[@bluetiger435]

Your explanation of catharsis/risk in juggling was super enlightening for me. And friends/family who watch me spin poi often describe it as hypnotizing so your differentiation between those two experiences really resonates

[@DrexFactor]

Glad to hear that connected for you! It was also quite enlightening for me, too.

[@seetheflow]

Until you realize that just shoe horns all of "juggling" into traditional performance toss juggling and ignores all the other elements of it or relegates it to a meaningless exception.

[@badwolfnation6161]

This is exactly why I left the flow arts community and never looked back. So many egotistical know it all people who just want to hear themselves talk. This video was beyond cringe.

[@johnfasolino1391]

41:30 incredible level of hypocrisy and belittling. you want to be the resolution for the issues you are currently initiating and instigating? Insufferable. I am happy to have left this channel if this is the kind of energy I’ve been missing. Only came here because of a discord argument you caused. Thankful to all flow communities for general understanding through the last 5 years but this ain’t it yall.

[@DrexFactor]

It's hypocritical and belittling to ask people not to harass each other online? I didn't know that there were so many people out there that are fans of belittling and harassment or that you were among them. This video has been an educational experience in more ways than one!

[@MeghhanTron]

@@DrexFactor -said by the man harassing people online

[@3urobob]

Can always count on drex to make drama out of nothing. Lighten up dude. It’s balls and string. Don’t make it complicated. No need for debates on this shit. Let people have fun

[@fizzyflair6618]

Just finished. What is the point of this video other than to vent about why he doesn’t like jugglers…

[@DrexFactor]

I say very much the opposite multiple times in the video. I like plenty of jugglers...I also just think there is a culture around juggler that creates tiers of hierarchy around specific props and that it creates a very unwelcoming environment. Though I can definitely see for a culture that thrives on creating that hierarchy why the only two comprehensible positions would be "likes juggling" or "doesn't like juggling" rather than exploring that nuance.

[@MeghhanTron]

"I have straight friends" vibes OMG@@DrexFactor Congrats on creating an unwelcoming environment Drex, definitely would not want to be around you!

[@hagninety4116]

I used to like Drex vibes more in the past. But the more he talks the more cringe it is. I have to take a break. A long break.

[@timsaylor5496]

I agree. I didn't really understand why this was an important topic until I saw the comments. The video was structured well, the part that stands out the most to me was the line about people being scared they won't be taken seriously if others aren't doing the craft good enough. I see parallels to this in skateboard and rollerblading worlds. We're not doctors or engineers, unless it's a fire safety thing we won't do something so bad someone else might die. The hate is unnecessary. Whether you throw things and catch them again or swing balls around on strings, people are only going to take you as seriously as you take yourself. Other people don't have much to do with it.

[@nimulm2517]

God damnit, this is exactly like skaters and bladers. I don't see why there's so much controversy. Jugglers and are just less athletic skaters.

[@soysauceandseasonedsalt8418]

Is it at all relevant to you that the proceeds for this poster go to the non-profit Madison Circus Space? I'd like to add to that that it's one of less that 10 (possibly less that 5) non-profit circus spaces in the US. One more add-on: Have you or anybody who helped her considered asking if she'd redesign it to include credit?

[@DrexFactor]

So to start off...I can understand why it feels unfair to have someone you're close to called out, especially when you enjoy their work and you see the amount of effort they've put into creating a product that you like. That anger is definitely real and valid and I get where it's coming from. From where I'm sitting, what happened was I saw a project posted on Circademics that engaged in the practice of claiming ownership over poi and more specifically revealed an ignorance in general of flow arts in what seemed to be framed as an academic exercise. I decided to engage despite disliking the way the project framed flow to at least help the author get to a place where she had a more complete understanding of the things she was trying to represent. Over a lengthy thread, I corrected her mistakes, gave her new information, and gave feedback on later drafts. She was clear at the time both that she knew almost nothing about Flow Arts and that she was also getting feedback from other Flow Artists to correct parts of her taxonomy as well. So I think it's safe to say that the poster as it currently is would not have been possible without the feedback of myself and several other artists. When she announced the release of the poster, it kind of felt both like I'd been mislead and the fact that neither myself nor any of the other artists she consulted were given either a citation or so much as a thank you, it really felt like a slap in the face. To say nothing of the fact that if indeed the exercise were on any level intended to be an academic one, you're supposed to cite your sources so people reviewing your work down the road can consult those sources, too. In the grand scheme of things, I'm glad that the poster is supporting a good cause (she spelled that out in the post announcing its sale and I agree that it's very pretty and very well designed. But I also really have to ask: why is it on the people who anonymously offered up our labor and knowledge to her to request the inclusion of credit for our contributions? Why wasn't that a given in the first place? Asking that question in the first place kind of makes me feel like indeed contributing to a project like this is being framed as worthless. That being credited for helping to create such a project isn't showing basic respect (or even academic rigor for that matter) but and unusual and special request. All that said, though...in a 45-minute video, this anecdote takes up maybe a minute or two of the runtime. I get that this is a friend and the topic is sensitive for that reason, but I also can't help but wonder why that's the only part of the case I made that you're engaging with.

[@projectnevil]

Kinda like how I taught you the infinite folding line at vasar college in 2013 when I was trying to make a name for myself and you filmed a video about it, that night in that space and said kieth Marshall taught you it and never mentioned me one bit? Kieth was there, we all jammed on it. But I taughy you that, I started that conversation and I never got credit for it. I've legit been salty about that moment for 11 years

[@projectnevil]

Id like to say i dont care but i do still care, with my

[@soysauceandseasonedsalt8418]

​@DrexFactor There's no need to engage with anything else in this video to make my point that what you did to Amanda was highly inappropriate. It's interesting how many arguments you like to call out as 'avoiding engagement', but then completely avoid engaging with anybody who disagrees with you. You avoided my point entirely, and I see you choosing to ONLY interact with Maori people who agree with you, ignoring any real opportunity for conversation. I'm not sure how this benefits anybodys body or brain. It feels like you are dividing the community for clicks and it's not a good look for any of us, regardless of whether we call ourselves jugglers or not.

[@soysauceandseasonedsalt8418]

​@@DrexFactorI'd also like to point out that you've: - Used videos of me/us in your videos without consent, more than once (all of which are monetized). - Never once credited us or shouted out or work anywhere - Been asked multiple times to give credit or at least ask consent, and failed to do so. People would be happier to credit you if you returned the favor or reached out, instead of using your following as a weapon.

[@GalenHarp]

Is it the Ship of Theseus or not? Surely, we will have a universally satisfying answer soon.

[@robvarley2160]

Maybe it's time to learn to juggle Drex? I have followed you for over 10 years, loved most of your content but I have always felt you held a grudge toward Juggling in general. Now I understand the full scope of that grudge, I have felt that tension too so I decided to learn to Juggle. It is very hard like every prop but learning your first cascade with balls and then clubs was huge, it helped me with my Poi spinning. Years later I am working on Poi Juggling and it is fantastic, you should try it. Maybe it's time to become the bridge to this tension and not a wall. I Love you Drex and I understand your point but most of the tension I felt from jugglers and other artists toward Poi spinning was in me. Hey if you can't beat em Join em!

[@DrexFactor]

I did actually learn a 3-ball cascade several years ago and began learning 3 poi juggling at one point, too. I stopped when I realized there wasn't actually a goal I was trying to reach with it. There wasn't a trick I felt like I needed to have and honestly I think life is too damned short to spend a chunk of it working on a thing that wasn't going to make me happy. I do appreciate that it's something other people have found rewarding, though.

[@JoffJk]

I'm late to watch this video but I just want to point out that you use contact poi. Which are basically juggling balls a rope and then end juggling clubs. We were juggling sock poi in the UK around 2005 which was before flowarts was even a thing so the point about juggling reducing creativity isn't really correct. I get that you want to keep what you love about poi, but I find a lot of the points in this video to be completely inappropriate/incorrect.

[@ButtersDClown]

I dont think it matters. Nobody should yuck anyone else's yum in this community. If you take the performance side, cool. If you prefer to zone out and almost meditate, cool. If you want to grind and be the best, like no one ever was, cool. The title doesn't matter. Don't be a dick, don't gatekeep, and respect the people in your community. It's not rocket science. We all out here having fun or enjoying our craft.

[@brycemckenzie6419]

Is Drex going to be able to recover from this? I would say yes, but it’s gonna take a really good apology video. I’m personally still hoping he will come out and just apologize properly.

[@mcmcpoi-ra7405]

I wouldn't hold your breath, I've not seen him back down, compromise or apologise for any of his controversial/divisive content. Would be nice if he would take the feedback onboard and stick to making tutorials.

[@shizz74499]

I suppose creating this is easier than learning how to juggle poi.

[@LucasAdverse]

Much props for such a well-deconstructed video with such articulate and fair arguments🔥🔥 From what I see there are many definitions of juggling and it's up to each person what to accept, but there's a pattern where jugglers accept a broader definition of juggling than people from other disciplines such as poi and kendama. As a juggler and kendama player, I've always considered kendama juggling but it's totally fair when dama players say it's not juggling because the two communities were never related until the recent years. I think everyone's opinion should be respected unless they're causing direct harm and everything shows me that there's no correct answer because no one is powerful enough to set it straight. By dictionary definition and common usage, even "juggling two jobs" is considered juggling haha

[@cmacspinz]

This is counter productive to the culture of poi. I commonly describe puppyhammer as a juggling prop for marketability. I often wonder if I’m wrong for that but I don’t care because I can toss it.

[@tomkendell]

Morning @drex I wanted to take a quick couple of moments to respond to one of your early points in your video. For the moment I have it paused but will watch the rest of it again. I really hope you do commit some of your more intellectual video’s to some form of scripted or written form as well…due to the fact that video’s are very hard to put arguments in or to write about. Which is why I paused the video as I thing the element that you pointed out shows a very underlying issue of definition in what constitutes the “experience” of watching someone juggle. Please bear with me on this one. Early on in your video as you describe your experiences with the various communities of jugglers and flow arts, you comment about the European circus communities blanket tendency to sort of adopt poi as an element of “OM/Juggling”. Your counter to that is the fact that if that was the case there would be more highlights of poi within the overall display of talent at EU gala’s and such. Later on in your video at the 15:35 mark you specifically mark that from the audiences perspective one of the definitive qualities is the build up of tension/release/and catharsis that makes the experience of juggling. When I heard this I sort of had to stop the video…..because between these two elements showing up it made me realize that there may be a weird sort of “element” that you might be missing. Within the “western world” there are two general styles of circus arts I have heard of these referred to as European versus American www.reddit.com/r/juggling/comments/32q5ru/catching_up_ep_3_kyle_johnson_american_vs/ www.aesdes.org/2017/01/24/aesthetic-explorations-juggling-by-preston-marcoux/ The short hand is that American Tradition of juggling which grew out of the vaudeville movement into early television focused very heavily on single “tricks” that is say the build up of tension and release as you have stated. While European Juggling focuses on the overall movement/total routine of the piece. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYGbpZWCd9Gmla8 vs kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZ2WYWuMe7tjfck That definition that you used for juggling at the 15:35 mark is very much a hall mark of American Juggling. Where as poi and other forms of flow arts that are more dance and movement based do more easily sideline with what is considered the European style of OM/Juggling I have a lot more feels but the system that were using doesn’t really work and I honestly need to give your video a few more solid listens before I can actually comment on it in it’s entirely. But I have enjoyed your video’s and will give this at least two more solid watches before engaging further. Please also understand that I speak both as a person who started at as a Poi performer and then moved into other forms of object manipulation and juggling. At this point I do consider myself a juggler (which is how I mentally define myself when I am not also doing sleight of hand skills)

[@redrejven]

" a person who started at as a Poi performer and then moved into other forms of object manipulation and juggling. At this point I do consider myself a juggle" Hey, this is exactly like me. I would like to add something. I would argue that it isn't exactly a EU / US dichotomy but rather a traditional / contemporary dichotomy and a result of the evolution of circus as such. I'm coming from the fact that circus as a whole is a metaphorical art. Theater directly represents it's subject. Dance imitates / hallucinates it's subject. Circus uses it's subject as a metaphor to invite certain feelings, often completely unrelated to the subject. And this whole comment will be incredibly simplified compared to reality, please keep that in mind. The traditional circus art had a focus on single, breathtaking, deathdefying tricks, focusing on creating the feeling of "avoiding death" - triggering evolutionary instincts from the times we were still climbing trees. The reasoning was different, but this was the result. The art of New Circus improved on this formula by adding theater, an overreaching purpose and story to circus performance, rather than just a catch > release > catch > release.. Thus breaking a lot of traditional rules in the process. But there were still rules. Contemporary circus goes full on metaphor. No rules, merely suggestions. All limitations are artificial and chosen for yourself because you cannot create without having any limits. The only real purpose is to create a metaphor to induce a feeling. Venue? Wherever. The physical division of audience and artist in the space? Removed if it limits us. Rules of traditional circus? All of them, none of them, anything in between, as necessary. Props? Any we need. Sheet of paper? Laptop? An audience member's voice? A data from a biologist's experiment? Just a very long string and nothing more? Sure. Whatever. I'm not even sure where I'm going with this comment, sorry. But the past few years have opened my eyes to mindblowing possibilities in the world of circus and when someone so actively wants to deny the amazing resources circus could provide to the evolution of poi, it makes me sad. Because let's face it, however Drex might disagree, spinning 2 poi inside our little circles is just embracing mediocrity, keeping all of us barely better than beginners and it certainly does not deserve the respect he so terribly craves.

[@chenclau]

this makes a lot of sense, as an American doing diabolo, I do not think diabolo is a form of juggling besides doing multiple diabolos (and other people have told me they think that doing tricks with multiple diabolos counts as juggling but not diabolo as a whole) because even though there's a focus on learning hard tricks and doing hard tricks, there is the thought that if it's not with multiple props in the air, it doesn't count as juggling. Which I think fits the American tradition of juggling. I also think the style of diabolo that is more common in Europe fits into the European style of juggling, I don't know if it's the result of Europeans considering juggling diabolo, or if diabolo style evolved to fit the juggling definition of being more focused on movement and storytelling

[@ohtamasahiro6833]

The longer he waits to take this down the worse he looks

[@colinkeane7539]

That's a lot of words just to say the meme hurt his feelings

[@BennyOrson]

I love having my opinion changed in 25 min. I appreciate this very much. Thank you.

[@ASKaaron32]

by now i know more people who juggle and play poi than people who just do only one or the other exclusively. what i heared most lately was flow vs juggling and i understand all the issues, but i feel that it all grew and will grow together easily over time. the top 40list is very based on the watchers/algorithm etc., so ofc it is not unbiased. i identify as a juggler btw xD dragonstaff is a lot of fun too. social study is interesting but meh, to me every juggling convention i went to felt very inclusive and welcoming so far, so i think the future is bright^^

[@fisty539]

I identify as a juggler/spinner (depending on who I'm talking to) and have since before 2000, I also spin poi and enjoy your discussions on the topic. But I've never thought of toss juggling or spinning poi as anything other than object manipulation. They are objects that are manipulated. Same with sleight of hand, magic etc. I group all these things into just 'object manipulation' but 'juggling/magic stuff' for most people who don't do it. Personally I just think it's a language change, like hhow you'd make a crass joke to a friend but not to a stranger. That might be what's happening here. Language is always changing. Our cultural upbringings are always changing too and one of mine was 'circus skills' (like riding unicycles). Love your vids Drex as always!

[@DrexFactor]

I think a lot of people would agree with you, there. I have a few qualms with the term "object manipulation" itself (mainly, that it's also in use in the puppeteering community for a completely unrelated concept), but for the time being it seems to be the least problematic label among many problematic labels. Language is the pain in the butt sometimes.

[@fisty539]

@@DrexFactor Regarding the qualms about the term object manipulation (think you should do a vid on it). Do you really think the puppeteering community should shape our use of the word? It's gotta be smaller than the spinners community and if so, should they even have influence over words? I'm interested in your other qualms drex and agree on all other points, I take words waaaay too literally lol

[@DrexFactor]

@@fisty539 It's more that they seem to have gotten to it first and because of that it creates some confusion. The other qualm is actually the same case that people make about the term "Flow Arts", namely that it's kind of vague and curious that we somehow seem to assign more "flow" to spinning objects than to other pursuits. Likewise, "Object Manipulation" is really vague and in theory could encompass everything from skateboarding to cooking, typing on a keyboard, or brushing your teeth. For the time being there seems to be a rough consensus around it, so I think that's just kind of where we're at. Again, language can sometimes be a blunt object instead of a precision instrument.

[@fisty539]

@@DrexFactor Ahhh okay yeah. Again think I agree with you, flow to me seems more like a state of mind that even surgeons have. Everyone has it. So flow arts doesn't really mean anything, surgeons are also artists in a way. So doesn't that mean 'flow arts' are....like pretty much anything to do with the flow state of mind lol. Anyway I think they are all umbrella terms and you could whittle it down to something more succinct but it would always be missing something. But then again that's what language is, constantly evolving and even creating new terms/words

[@turtles9707]

Bro, why are you trying to gate keep juggling?

[@tempMentive]

Although i often disagree with you on many things, i find myself agreeing with many of your talking points on this one... Although i do have to point out that there seems to be a bitterness type attitude on your end, which is going to catch you a LOT of backlash (which the comments and threads elsewhere clearly illustrate) Im also glad you posted it, bcuz the drama is quite comical. And ive otherwise ignored the debates on POI chat, etc. Didnt feel a reason to drag myself into the pointless debate. The part i find most amusing are the comments from jugglers telling you that you should learn to juggle, and the overall backlash from jugglers that are just completely offended that you feel POI in its entirety isnt juggling. Granted, a large subset of modern POI is definitely juggling, much of it specifically more related to Contact Juggling.

[@omerlewy]

Check yourself - wasn't tech. Always about taking some sort of risk? Isn't every learning curve an expression of assuming more risk? Be it a double pirroute in dance or a 5up 360 in juggling or just a challenging variation of Zens diamond with poi? To me, every "tech" and it's period is about assuming more and more risk.

[@juvenciomaldonado7522]

Yikes! This comes off as “holier than thou” for most of the video. Not a good look

[@badwhisk3y]

Yeah he's like that in real life too. My girlfriend once asked him at the drum circle in Meridian Hill Park in DC if he could give her some advice and he just referred her to his KZbin.

[@MandulaEnkara]

Disclaimer: I am not a native english speaker. That said, I consider myself a poi spinner. That will change to prop spinner (or something) after I became a tad bit ( = lot) more proficient in the other props that interest me (staff, dragonstaff, rope dart, puppyhammer, fans, just to name a few). How do I refer to myself when I talk to non-flow people? Juggler. Because of two things. Firstly. In my opinion if I say "juggling", people at least are able to put that activity _somewhere_, in the ballpark, associating it with circus arts. If they ask more, I tell them that I spin a ball on a string. 😄 Secondly, I would LOVE to call myself a flow artist (and then do the explanation)... But sadly I lack the "artist" part. 😅 In my dictionary it is a level of skills I simply do not possess. And I can't just call myself a flow-er, can I? 😂😂😂 Prop manipulator, or object manipulator sounds weird for me, sooooo... That leaves me with juggler/juggling. Eventhough - again, in _my_ dictionary - I associate juggling strictly with the tosssing-in-the-air-then-catching type of activities. Regardless if what is being thrown/tossed. If poi, then I call it juggling with poi. 🙂 By my definition "flow arts" is a bigger group than juggling: I think juggling also has flow, so I consider juggling a part of flow arts, and not the other way around. Ohh, and my object manipulation always contains risk and excitement: you never know when I'm gonna hit myself in the face. 😆 So I can legitimetly call myself juggler, a'yt? 😅😅😅 Finally, my biggest problem, or rather question, or more like dilemma: what to call my activities on my native language? In Hungarian, as far as I know, we only have the word "zsonglőr" - it comes from the french word and sounds exatly like "jongleur". So, again, juggler. 🙈 But then again, disclaimer 2, I'm relatively new to this world, and after about a year or two I've been introduced to it, I left my country. So there might be a new Hungarian word for flow arts and flow artists, I just haven't heard it yet. 😊

[@DrexFactor]

Don’t sell yourself short…art is a thing that anyone can create. If it’s beautiful to you, then take pride in it!

[@MandulaEnkara]

@@DrexFactor That's my problem - I do not consider it beautiful the way I do it. It is "okay" at best, and "holy shiet what am I doing" the most part. :D But thank you.

[@nimulm2517]

Then I'll call myself a two ball juggler =). Perfect for people to visualize haha

[@MandulaEnkara]

@@nimulm2517 😆😆😆

[@UncleT]

People are way too hard on you Drex. I think this is really cool and exhaustive. And it’s your opinion combined with a lot of history so the content is relevant, bc it’s your channel. You’ve taken on a big role in poi and bc of that, you take a lot of hits for not being everyone’s idea of what someone with a large following should be or post. I respect you- keep doing you.

[@DrexFactor]

Thank you! A LOT of effort went into this one and I really felt like I grew a lot as an editor making this one. It feels good to have that be seen and I appreciate that you see that the job of someone with a large following is not always to tell people what they want to hear.

[@runeciti]

I found this video to be enjoyable and very insightful. I did poi back in the day and some friends used to mock me, but calling it arrassment is too strong of a word. The truth is there is a juggling hierarchy, and the juggling community does see itself as a very special and entitled one. So many jugglers believe they are truly special and better than the rest of human kind, but I've always felt the juggling community revolved more around politics, ego and power struggles than actual love for the art itself. The "juggling community" is corrupt and selfish. Most of the times mediocre jugglers simply step over more cualified jugglers, using their influence and conexions to undeservingly give themselves job oportunities, gigs, and more money into their bank accounts, cause that's what really matters if you're a profesional juggler. It feels like a mafia more than a family, and we all know that for the mafia the family is what matters most. Most jugglers are too lazy to create new tricks and find it easier to just rip on other family members and not even credit them. That's cool in the juggling world, I guess... Hipocrisy is the glue that sticks it all together in the juggling world. The juggling community has such a distorted vision of itself that everytime someone dares bring the argument that "something's wrong" or dares criticize it, the mob comes out to throw stones at you. Such fragility I see in this comment section... And I must personally admit I feel a bit envyous. I never received this ammount of backlash and I've been telling jugglers to get bent in many many ways over the years. My respect to you, sir.

[@Mireneye]

First poi Juggling I ever saw was in Japan in 2007 or 2008 and if I don't misremember, I was watching Komei Aoki, however I might have gotten the person wrong. He is a a very talented juggler and he was messing around with 3 poi. Altho I don't remember seeing a Cascade. If not that then I might have conflated the memory for him standing with two poi and three balls and trying to juggle the balls while spinning.

[@juggles7]

I respect and admire the work that many people do in the worlds of poi, juggling, object manipulation, circus and what have you. I don't believe that everyone needs to have mutual admiration and respect for one another. I am trying to move on from years where I thought I 'deserved' admiration, respect or acknowledgement for my performance, teaching and organizing in this realm. Some folks won't give you that, and that's okay. I hope this articulates my feelings that two folks whom I admire and respect -- two folks who do a boatload of work increasing education, access and growth -- are getting entwined in something that could, on the whole, prove more destructive than productive. I respect intellectual debate and argument (and the work that goes into producing quality and engaging content). The interpersonal and individual naming part just feels completely unnecessary to advancing intellectual argument. This all to say, let me know if you want to chat about it in a space that's less internetty. :)

[@DrexFactor]

I guess I would frame the problem less as that poi spinners are entitled to respect so much as I don't think that we are deserving of disrespect. I think there's a lot of work still ahead of us to develop the vocabulary of our art into something that's truly a mature artform, but I think there's a big gap between recognizing that versus hearing "we're club jugglers, of course it's better than poi!" There are ways that the art can be nurtured that don't involve the disdain. I agree that there's a lot of opportunities for constructive feedback. Unfortunately, like the example I just quoted, far too much of it is destructive and I feel as though that's a thing that's kind of been institutionalized in some respects.

[@Inverted1]

How did nobody see how awful this dude has been to the community until now Lol get ready for those struggle sessions you where so proud of drex

[@michaelmenes]

I enjoyed watching the many high quality insert edits of poi, toss juggling, and related object manipulation which opens things up in seeing the range that currently exists. To me, all these techniques and props are "similar, but not the same." To me, they are all tools or brushes to be used for what bests suits each one. It's ok that they are similar but not the same and each one is useful in its own way and each one ought to have terminology to avoid confusion, share ideas, collaborate and communicate. A single word fails to capture the abundance of all that is out there and can be misleading.

[@deathmetal6546]

I would delete this lol. Bad look.

[@projectnevil]

You have no idea how many people have this downloaded by now just because of that suspected upcoming move

[@ZakMcallister]

@@projectnevilI’ve archived the comments as well

[@deathmetal6546]

Nice this will be like herpes….. it’s forever 🫠

[@thomasbarrett5351]

I get that you have baggage with the word juggling and don't want to be under any venn diagram / hierarchy that puts that label above poi. What I am curious about is what label you want to use that puts poi and juggling on parallel levels encompassed by another label above it. Personally I have Manipulation as the biggest umbrella and three subsets under it (Body, Apparatus, and Object). So to me, the umbrella that puts juggling and poi more or less parallel is "Body&Object Manipulation". This whole videos just seems like a disagreement on what umbrella you consider to cover both art forms or whether there can be no umbrella that has intersection for both. It doesn't sound like you are making the argument that there should be no intersection of labeling, so what is the name that you would like to give to that intersection or bigger umbrella?

[@kawabatakatsuro8639]

Sad and depressing seeing the old heads lose their way, is Drex and Chris Kelly really the best the community has to offer? 🤦🏽

[@steam_punk8279]

We can definitely get along but it seems like u argue to much for anyone to get along with you . You should accept others information. And collectively make a family . Sounds like ur defending ur self for arguing on social media and losing your cool

[@AthiestDing]

Alot of cultures have made it to the shores of New Zealand in its pre colonial past, Celtic, Chineese, Hindu. Some of the people were from Persia, made their way through South America landing in NZ about 2000 years ago before traveling to other polynesian islands. The bones of the rats that they brought with them being evidence of this. I have seen poi that was from Peru i believe which was tied together like a puppy hammer, i believe this is closer to true origin of poi.

[@adrianjabs5752]

Totally agree with you drex I've noticed toss jugglers are elitist arrogant I'm happy supportive of the whole scene bcuz flow object manipulation is already a small counter culture niche activity and before anyone hates on me I'm a hardcore toss jugglers and hardcore poi spinner you know why because they are balanced left right side symmetrical activities that complement each other !

[@DrexFactor]

And again, just to be clear: I have plenty of toss juggler friends who are awesome, super chill, and incredibly supportive. I don't think this is a problem with individual jugglers. I think it's a problem with Juggling Culture.

[@tobias8826]

Hello Drex, I have a big video request. I loved your your history of flow arts but I feel there is a huge gap in the history of poi as far as I know. What happened between tradtional poi existing and people spinning burning balls in chains at burning man in indian club swinging patterns. Who?, when?, how? Did it evolve from traditional poi-spinners or was the name just slapped on the performance to draw on the popularity of other pacific fire spinning acts and make it exotic?

[@DrexFactor]

Short answer is that we don't entirely know. From what I've gathered talking to people who started spinning in the late 90s and early 00s, it seems as though most people who picked up poi were doing so as a result of seeing it done with fire as entertainment for beach gatherings throughout Southeast Asia by travelers from a variety of countries. From there it gets picked up by buskers and taken to other parts of the world, including Burning Man (where I first encountered it) and Europe. The link between those fire spinners in SEA and where the name came from is still really hazy. The movement vocabulary is nearly identical to Māori long poi, but I've yet to find a patient zero who either learned long poi and then started doing it with fire or was inspired by seeing kapa haka and applied the name to a prop they were using. I think learning this would be a really fun project! It would require a lot of legwork, though. Many people I've talked to who learned to spin poi (including Nick Woolsey himself) were inspired by watching people whose names they didn't know, so tracing the lineage could be really difficult.

[@tobias8826]

Interesting, you already told me a bit more than I knew🙂. (I started in the early 2010s after the big flow arts peak in my country.) I can see a possible route there but still a bit of a mystery that sounds fun to explore. But yes it can be a very hard and big projekt to try and track down the old beach spinners etc. Since spinning things on strings and performing with fire isn't that complex ideas, it definetly could have been some convergent evolution going on also with crossover.

[@jordanaguirre5813]

Oh another good one! My experience, I can juggle flower sticks and its going to be scene as juggling. Same prop, just without the hand sticks and it starts to resemble flow arts. I'll need to make a more prettied version but key points: - Similar to music or dance there is some underlying encompassing reference point. - prop is separate from style? - Circus, Juggling, Flow are more on side of disciplines? I need to look into this more.

[@poizila]

For anyone here new to poi/flowarts: this is quite a pessimistic interpretation and hyper-analysis - which is counter intuitive because it ultimately leads to divide. My suggestion - watch this video with a pinch of salt and popcorn, and at the end of the day do what you like - poi juggling, poi dancing, or even poi walking! They're all equally valid and equally (un)original ;) (joke)

[@littleerichsenstudios2292]

Hey, hoop dance is not juggling - yay! We don't need an eye for an eye - yes, I can perfectly hit myself on the eyes or burn my lashes without a juggler nearby 😂

[@johnnyhoward2313]

The fact that this video inspired a song is great. Flattering at the very least, impact is impact.

[@johnnyhoward2313]

Now do a poi dance to the new song!!!

[@johnnyhoward2313]

Actually the fact that someone made an absolute banger about this topic is amazing! It’s really cool that the topic ignited such a firestorm of controversy!

[@Beafsicle]

This reminds me of mel gibson’s speech in the smug/fart sniffing episode of south park.

[@gaberialla]

These are definitely interesting and valid points you went into. Now you have me wondering if hooping is not juggling either. Poi is definitely way more than just juggling.

[@DrexFactor]

There was a version of this script that also incorporated hoop, but I decided ultimately that I wasn't the right person to make that case. I suspect, however, that hoop and juggling have a very similar relationship to the one poi has with juggling.

[@Stoplightcircus]

All the division is in your head

[@DrexFactor]

The person who expressed a "churning hatred of the prop" certainly isn't. You can follow the link in my sources to see the post for yourself.

[@poi__peter]

Wow, now that reference section is a seriously impressive document to have compiled 😮

[@someonemcmystery2261]

Two quick points then my personal experiences: most of those definitions that count all poi spinning as juggling would arguably also include things like tennis as juggling. I'm also surprised that you didn't mention that many flow arts have roots in martial arts and that things like rope dart and staff can be approached from a decidedly non-juggler way. New to poi, I mainly come from the skill toy world, which has some similarities. I've always been impressed by juggling - from a distance. I've tried time after time to learn different juggling styles. The only one that's stuck is contact juggling and I think you're point about the tention and catharsis intrinsic to toss juggling finally helped me figure out why. That feeling of tention is exactly what I'm trying to get away from with object manipulation. I like skill toys because I can take a little bit of focus away from my mind racing with a thing I can carry in my pocket, and I don't want more tention added to that. Then, last year I went to a few raves that had poi spinners and glow stringers, and fell in love with it as an alternative to dancing. Notably, my intentions with object manipulation are pretty counter to why someone would want to juggle, and I found poi in a setting where I suspect juggling would unwelcome to the point of potentially getting you kicked out of the event. Poi is therapeutic to me, it's a thing I do for myself and my friends, and I have no intention of actively looking to perform. I see it less as manipulating objects in a way that's interesting for others to see with their eyes, and more as manipulating momentum in a way that I find satisfying to feel with my hands and body.

[@thekellin]

rog is rog

[@nohandlepls]

Before i watch a drex video i always look at the comments first so i can see if he spewed so much bs that his video is once again not worth watching. Looks like dudes at it again 😂 its honestly embarrassing how far down hes dragged his reputation 🤷‍♀️

[@jastab9]

Just curious, what poi trick takes so much time as for example 5 club juggling?

[@roberthaab1498]

Poi has a different learning curve. Learning 5 clubs needs specific training, and grinding it until it is perfect. Poi has some trick groups (not individual tricks) that needs plane and timing control and being able to separately control arms and such. It can be pretty hard, but differently hard than a 5 club juggling. I am playing poi for almost 20 years, and it would be hard for me to answer your question. We can't really say the skill level just pointing out a trick, like you can do 5 club or Mill's mess. With poi it is murky, someone can learn a specific trick in one direction, but sucks with the other directions, and not able to switch to an other trick smoothly, because s/he has no control. There are some guys who can toss 3-4-5 pois, and it is actually harder than doing the same with clubs as the pois can flop around, not as solid as a club. But still, it is not really make sense to compare them together. Like which is harder? 5 clubs or 3 diabolos or 4 cigarboxes or footjuggling 4 balls? All of them are hard :D Comparing "flow art" (god, how I hate that term :D) to juggling is like comparing orange to apples. Both are hard and both need dedication and discipline to learn them.

[@Kaiasky]

In the same way that 5 club cascade is conceptually the same as 3 club, but requires absolutely perfect spin control and toss discipline, I think a lot of isolation stuff gets there. There's a stupid "holy grail" which is the fully isolated 3b weave. Same "conceptually simple, really hard" thing, just do the first trick you learned, but never falling out of perfect isolations. It's definitely possible, we have video, but something like 10 people can do it clean. when it's clean it looks incredible to anyone who's done poi for years and completely stupid to anyone who isn't deep in the weeds. classic "stupid juggler trick for jugglers" i think

[@WATCHESYOUTOOBE]

5 Poi? 😘

[@jastab9]

Hahahah true true :D ​@@WATCHESYOUTOOBE

[@redrejven]

3 poi tennis, judging by how long it's taking me to learn both :D

[@omerlewy]

If ine if yoyr arguments is to say the usage of poi in context of juggling and a sentence before that you say that languages evolve... Shouldn't the language evolve in a way that considers poi to be juggling too? Also, this art form is generally falls under the category of flow arts, also a term from mid 00s, do you accept pii to be under the umbrella of flowarts but not juggling?

[@omerlewy]

Also, one could say Ruslan Fumenko was a Juggler. And also, I considered myself ti be a Juggler for a long time, considering my poi spinning and toss juggling under the bigger umbrella of juggling even prior ti the 00s (started on 98)

[@DrexFactor]

I think that's the point I'm exploring at 11:06, yes? I absolutely agree that the language is evolving and one of the directions it seems to be testing out is to make juggling a much more broad term--hence that meme from Poi Chat placing Rhythmic Gymnastics and Rope Dart in the category. But if I'm catching your meaning correctly, you're comparing the introduction of the banner Flow Arts to this evolution of Juggling and essentially posing the question as to whether there's a meaningful difference between the two uses of language? It's a fair point. And yes, arguably placing poi within the Flow Arts can be see to be as much an act of assimilation as placing it within Juggling when viewed in that light. That said...I do still think there is a conversation that should be had around the ways that social hierarchy is built in the Juggling world around prop (and yes, Flow Arts definitely as the same problem and it's something I touched on here but could absolutely expand upon) and the impacts that has on both the development of art around those individual props and Juggling itself.

[@omerlewy]

@@DrexFactor as a multiprop juggler (or flow artist, or object manipulator) for many years, I think the only hierarchy that exists in tge "two" worlds (my viewpoing was always one world with a different perspectives) that actually holds true is thr number of objects you choose to manipulate simultaneously. Which, usually correlates pretty well for the time and effort to add one more object. Not even talking about numbers juggling, but having base patterns with 3 poi is harder than acquiring same base patterns with two poi. Same goes for double staff va single staff, doubke dragon vs single dragon, or even working with two sides of the same prop (meteors vs. Poi, puppy hammer vs ropedart) Usually having contril on more aspects requires more effort. Yes, there are a ton of other ways to appreciate talent and the art. But just from this narrow angle. Maybe youll think I've internalized the microaggressions aimed at me for more than 20 years. But maybe, just maybe, there is some truth there? And agajn, it doesn't matter if it's poi or clubs ir kendamas, let me see a good story that unfolds and I'll enjoy every artist even if they spin toilet seats or juggle zucchinis

[@0mtrebellcyury993]

Agree or disagree but I honestly don’t see the problem with poi being classified in the juggling category like don’t you wanna get some more revenue in order to put your activity on the MAP? so you gotta start somewhere

[@DrexFactor]

I mean...if there were more revenue in it I think there's a case to be made there. Part of my fear is that there really isn't. I don't see the juggling world rolling in cash right now, either. Is marketing to more people who don't have revenue to spend an upgrade?

[@garywilson8413]

A 45min video about "why poi is not juggling"? I don't like to get involved in drama...but something is really off here.

[@dougjacobson4115]

Tongan women have a tradition of juggling a type of nut in full shower pattern, there are a couple documentaries about it. "Hiko: the tongan women jugglers" is one. So something of a counter to traditional Polynesian point. Overall I think this is a silly argument, I'd call it a problem of language ala Wittgenstein. Didn't have time to finish so apologies if this was later brought up.

[@DrexFactor]

It’s mentioned at 35:20. I recommend checking out that entire section-it’s the shortest one!

[@me0101001000]

Being the science-brained person I am, I watched your video and tried to identify the movement patterns in poi and compared them to juggling. This is what I've taken away: Poi becomes juggling when a prop is released, sure. But generally in rigorous poi, the movements require constant contact, with the prop suspended in some manner through the movements, and the curves created by the props in poi tend to have less sharp points, following more geometric curves whereas juggling follows generally sharper movements. And while there is the argument of "contact juggling" existing, keep in mind that even then, there is no act of suspension, which is crucial in identifying poi technique. Thus, I consider poi and juggling artistically adjacent, but not the same. If I'm being pedantic, I'd consider them to be EVOLUTIONARILY CONVERGENT, but separate entities. I personally haven't spent time learning juggling, and oddly enough, I'm not so concerned with exploring it. Studying poi has been a bit like doing a PhD for me, so I'm occupied with seeing how deep it goes. It's like how I'm doing an actual PhD in materials science. Yes, it's adjacent to chemical engineering and mechanical engineering, but it's ultimately its own thing, and it should be treated as such, requiring its own techniques and knowledge bases.

[@DrexFactor]

I can definitely see that interpretation and I agree that a lot of poi centers around curves and more specifically roulette curves. I think damn near anything that can be thrown into the air will be juggled at some point, so evolutionarily convergent is a good way to frame that concept.

[@me0101001000]

@@DrexFactor this is also true. You see juggling find its way into not just poi, but also hoops, staff, baton, even swords. Almost like juggling is the crab of prop manipulation. It's our own version of carcinization.

[@TheKingLiones]

bro just wrote an entire essay without even looking up definition or etymology

[@chriskellypoi]

Who else is going to Te Matatini and not Firedrums?

[@TheCatchingMachine]

Me!!!! Every year bruh!!!

[@chriskellypoi]

@@TheCatchingMachine Hopefully I’ll see you there! If things go as planned I’ll be making the trek over. 😎

[@TheCatchingMachine]

@@chriskellypoi I live 5 min from the venue. Let me know when you know what’s up. Happy to help if I can.

[@TheCatchingMachine]

Scratch that. It’s about 5 hrs from me next year. The venue is incredible. I’ll definitely be going still.

[@fractalbender]

there is catharsis when a poi spinner drops their poi or any prop i would say the catharsis is even more heightened if the prop is flying near you as the audience. Most of the time the audience is not knowledgeable enough to even understand the majority of juggling moves unless the risk is visually obvious like 5 balls vs 3. You could argue there is also catharsis for poi spinning if you were to layer some form of acrobatic with it as well. Which would require knowledge of both paths

[@SeeTheTravisty]

Drex is gonna make a great star bucks barista when this well runs dry

[@DrexFactor]

Nah...Busboys and Poets is local and their drinks are WAY better.

[@steam_punk8279]

Dance and flow arts together create a master of the prop manipulation. Body tracers can also work with dance concept . Stop separating concepts . Involve all concepts together . So far I feel limited to my learning curve just from watching this 45 min video ..

[@PitzkeMP]

Extremely level headed and nuanced look and approach to this debate/ convo/ argument. Your great at articulately and methodically breaking down your views, and the fact that your own personal biases take the backstage and have little contextual merit to the discussion really help make the experience palatable for those who may disagree with you. Love this newer, long-form video essay approach/ style to your overall content wheelhouse. As always another banger. Much love Drex. thanks for the video❤💯👌

[@DrexFactor]

Thank you so much! I'm really happy to know that the time spent on research and effort are both appreciated!

[@nonnaza]

There Will allways be haters that fred over undestimate a discipline they dont do enough or ignore the best artista on it. Juggling has a culture of numbers, the more the better so uf you have just two they might run on tradition. Juggling is tricks and performance. And circus should be a Place of unión AND escape. Just like any art. Uf you give cloud to those that hate you, you aint training AND you aint shutting them app with example. It might take a Lot, some may still be haters, AND some Will become flow artista just así ITS happening with jugglers going unto contemporary movement. Those that care dont really give them self to stupidity.

[@WATCHESYOUTOOBE]

From the reactions I've seen from everyone else, I feel my feelings are summed up well. I respect the effort that has gone into this video, but it comes from a disillusioned place. A very opinionated and subjective viewpoint, often presented as objective fact (and sometimes out of context). After seeing the memes I thought this was just a 'hit and a miss' of a video, but it is far more insidious than that.

[@holeymcsockpuppet]

You are trying to gain the respect of jugglers. Why? Really ask yourself why poi spinners feel the need for recognition and respect of jugglers. "Respect" is what this is really about. Ultimately, this is a lack of self-worth and self-respect of poi spinners. Semantics, history, culture, justifications, philosophy, etc. are shifting sands of debate within object manipulation. Character and sef-respect are solid foundations to build an art upon. Why not create a better umbrella term and build a stronger foundation of personal strength and character? Because ultimately, no one really gives a sh¡t about you and your feels. You must give a sh¡t about yourself/yourselves.

[@troytotheg]

One of your best videos so far! I have never seen the harassment or aggression, but I’m not saying it’s not valid. I have never seen gatekeeping with my own eyes, but I understand that articles in IJA and slots in a juggling gala function as gatekeepin in your perspective. Overall, jugglers have been welcoming to me as a flow artist. But I acknowledge that other people have had a different experience. I tell people NOT to juggle poi because it’ll ruin the fun of poi! 😂 Keep up the great work!

[@DrexFactor]

Thank you! I really appreciate both the feedback as well as the acknowledgement that my experience is valid even if it isn't the same as yours. I'm honestly really glad to hear that you feel welcome and supported in that community. I can imagine it feels wonderful!

[@poi__peter]

I love Drex’s commentary documentary content. Contentious, opinionated, educational and always entertaining. But I think the man holds a grudge for past grievances and the disrespect he has encountered and maybe continues to receive in the flow community. There is an undercurrent of score settling in this video and in previous videos he has produced. Some of this score settling by Drex has been harmful to those singled out. I wonder who’s going to be next? Whoever or whatever group it is, I shall be watching. 🍿🥤

[@DrexFactor]

I still get people throwing references to "10K" into the comments of random videos. If holding a grudge is a sin, then cast the first stone, by all means.

[@poi__peter]

Holding a grudge is human nature. Some can let it go, some can’t and then some (like you!) get the chance for revenge or to settle scores. That’s human nature too.

[@CynicGamingUK]

So glad you're still putting out content, picked up a set of poi about three weeks ago and really finding my flow thanks to your videos, can't say thank you enough! I will be donating to your patreon :)

[@dontknow4400]

It is kind of sad that drex has done and continues to do great work for the community, but increasingly does not represent our community

[@DrexFactor]

I appreciate you!

[@poinotes]

you're just juggling words and terms 😂

[@steam_punk8279]

Flow artist are being interrogated. What the hell is this

[@Marenich]

If juggling is "object manipulation tricks to entertain public" then card tricks and motorcycle stunts are obviously juggling which is not very practical :) For me juggling is throwing and catching objects, so poi is not juggling since you can spend your entire life spinning poi without letting go of the handle once. Yes, spinners and jugglers share space and benefit from practicing and performing together, but that doesn't mean math and philosophy is the same because people share library and both doing the same thing - reading books, thinking and writing papers ;)

[@glitterfaery1]

What a joke

[@MalcolmAkner]

Most things done well in any discipline looks quite simple from the outside. That is what it means to be skilled. The fact that random people have opinions that are wrong about a discipline is completely irrelevant. Your entire angle here is to try to create and foster an artificial divide that is a) never going to happen since the communities are so overlapping, and b) only paints you in vindictive and petty colors. Which, imho, suits you. The reach of this channel and of your work is vastly overblown, and I think it's sad that when new people come in to the fold and search for poi tutorials on YT, that almost all of them will see your approach. I do not think your approach is good, and it should definitely not be the default for new people based on YT recommendations and algorithms. Feel free to block me if that's your approach on how to deal with dissenting comments.

[@nonnaza]

They dont know Jonathan Álvarez, they dont know vojta, they dont know many flow artist makinf very hard swing 3 poi... Almost without the "traditional" númer thoses focus. F*ck the herarchy. Hate never works. Plus traditional juggling is been Runing for so long. Only that. How old dos the fiesta flow festival happen... And we aré already so fast at breaking tech... They should just have met Jonathan Álvarez, those ukranian brothers playing with four... I wpuld argue both feets aré two More props AND planes like crazu add two AND More imagínate objetcs to handle that nobidy seems to be counting...

[@DrexFactor]

The list of poi spinners that should have received recognition if indeed Poi were seen and appreciated in the Juggling Community is an incredibly long one and certainly has those names and many more on it. I'm glad we're able to see and appreciate those among us that shine, though!

[@jasperfleer6086]

Yooo you taught me 5 beat. L vid

[@vivianhymer90]

Came here for the comment section. Didnt even watch the video.

[@samanthaponga9278]

Before I start...Im Maori, I grew up with poi and I like poi juggling, poi jugglers and contact poi. But Oh man Poi was not always part of the juggling world thats first and foremost. NZ Poi was initially used by Maori warriors as a training for combat. Thats it. It wasnt used to juggle. I never saw poi being thrown in Kapakaka. Majority of Maori dont even know about poi juggling. Ive only ever seen it in the flow arts and poi juggling is not as old as traditional Maori poi. I agree that this is just Westerners appropriating indigenous culture.

[@DrexFactor]

I really, really appreciate you sharing this! One of my biggest concerns in the ways Jugglers try to root poi in the juggling world is that it tends to skip over the true roots of the art. We’re already so bad at acknowledging the fact that we’re engaging in an Indigenous art and that’s a much better focus for our energies.

[@samanthaponga9278]

I love your videos Drex because they open up discussion which is good. I cant comment on juggling because Im not a Juggler but I can definitely weigh in on the origins of poi aspect. I think it comes down to a lack of knowledge but worse than that a lack of desire to learn, to acknowledge and to respect anothers culture. Dont be that person.

[@DrexFactor]

@@samanthaponga9278 Definitely! Curiosity is tantamount in this regard and thank you for the reminder of it. And I hope you'll do me the favor of pointing it out when and if I am that person myself.

[@TheCatchingMachine]

Ouch, Māori here too. Also grew up with kapa haka. Been doing poi since childhood and non traditionally since 1996. First tried 3 poi juggling in 1998, here in Aotearoa. I had never seen it before then. Would prefer to think of myself as an innovator rather than someone appropriating my own culture.