Why PUNK never really destroyed PROG

[@CanAlternateLostTape]

David Lee Roth said the reason why rock critics love Elvis Costello is because they all look just like him

[@armandom28]

Good vid Andy. This is what I call a thinking musician’s conversation. I would argue that Bohemian Rhapsody is one of the finest examples of classic prog made to fit into commercial radio friendly format….and that was a huge hit.

[@ericarmstrong6540]

I see punk and prog as being music forms that exist on the opposite side of the same coin. I find common ground in listening and enjoying to both forms. As you point out, post-punk, new wave and other forms start extending the punk form from it's origins to much more musically complex forms and many prog artists start stripping down their music form. John Lydon's own PIL is the best example of the path punk traveled into more serious conceptual territory.

[@juniorbaracat9438]

This is a great topic for discussion! Thanks for the video, Andy. I totally agree that punk did not destroy prog, but I'd dare say that what happed was that the "English Aesthetic" was replaced by the "German Aesthetic". There are, of course, a few bands that represent the "back to the basics", like Ramones and Sex Pistols. But, already in 1977, many adventurous, experimental, complex albums by bands associated with the Punk movement were released. But they represent, in my opinion, the German Aesthetic of Can, Neu! (Harmonia and La Dusseldorf), Cluster, Krafwerk, Embryo, and not the English one of Yes, Genesis et alii - with the exception of King Crimson's 70's trilogy, Brian Eno/early Roxy Music (and it's not accidental that Brian Eno is such an important name in the "new prog"), and maybe a bit of Henry Cow (especially when in collabaration with Slapp Happy). Bands like Talking Heads, Pere Ubu, Wire, Television, Pop Group, PIL, Joy Division, Gary Numan, Stranglers, Bauhaus, Siouxie. The Fall etc. are prog, and there is no question about it! However, the elements of their prog are those of Kraut: minimalism, free jazz, eletronics, motorik beat, incorporation of Eastern/African music, sonic manipulation, darkness and so on. Eno was perhaps the first to notice that German prog was the future of music. Bowie, Fripp, Iggy Pop followed him, and were fundamental to the transmission of those ideias to the British/American scene. (There are many interviews with punk/post-punk/new wave artists in which they declare their love for German bands - and some even covered them, e.g. Bauhaus' version of Can's "Mushroom" or The Fall's homage to Damo Suzuki "I am Damo Suzuki).) Best!

[@michelleplombe7019]

The Damned - Black Album

[@oolongoolong789]

You make some very good points. The British progsters - apart from King Crimson, Peter Hammill, various Canterbury bands, and Henry Cow and Art Bears who were all still experimental - were largely finished as experimental forces in the 80s. Unless, of course one thinks of supergroups like Asia, UK and poppy Genesis as still experimental.... I think the REAL renaissance of prog occurred in the USA in the 90s with experimental bands such as Thinking Plague, 5uu's, U Totem, Motor Totemist Guild, etc. Chris Cutler's ReR Megacorp catalogues contained a wealth of experimental European and US bands that still retained a connection to the original movers and shakers of the 60s like Zappa, Beefheart, The Pink Floyd, The Soft Machine, etc.

[@juniorbaracat9438]

I agree with you. And I think we agree on a more fundamental point: that prog music is essentially experimental music.

[@wiggy009]

I agree with you and I think Andy may be placing too much emphasis on prog as a fundamentally “British” thing

[@stevesmith3990]

When I was discovering music in the late 70's I was buying Rush, Yes & Genesis albums at the same time as The Stranglers and Buzzcocks. Sure I know which I like best now but I never understood why they had to be mutually exclusive.

[@paulmcquillan1827]

Excellent video, Andy. Very thought-provoking. I remember one thing that Robert Fripp once said about how ashamed punk and post-punk bands had been made to feel about displaying any level of musicianship that might potentially draw attention to them. As you rightly say, the critics have a great deal to answer for in establishing a so-called canon of "great" rock music. The likes of Rolling Stone, NME and Pitchfork have persisted in this. It is particularly damaging to younger music fans whose conception of music is very much shaped by whatever flavour of the month is glorified by these magazines and, over time, they inherit the closed-minded mentality of the critics they read. In jazz, Stanley Crouch's writings were very damaging in the way they promoted the "purity" of certain forms of jazz and denigrated more modern forms of expression. In the Seventies, Robert Christgau was also very destructive with his caustic reviews of anything resembling progressive music. Music has the power to break down so many barriers but these so-called critics would prefer to continue building new fences to divide people.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I discussed the jazz situation on this video : kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2aXh2mmj6yliKM Thanks for the kind comments.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

You identified most of the main culprits in the dumbing down of rock. There were other critics and mags who assisted in the slaughter (NME in the UK). And Wynton Marsalis played a role in establishing "pure" jazz...but well played!

[@Civilizashum]

I’m glad you articulated that, because it needed to be said, and so that I was saved a lot of typing, as this is exactly *it*

[@turntablesrockmyworld9315]

I love Christgau's reviews! He's like a grumpy curmudgeon who hates music more than he likes it. I always love reading his stuff. I agree with him about 50% of the time.

[@andrewhamer2512]

I love this video. You have rock music journalists completely figured.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks Andrew

[@AlmostEthical]

Love your chats. So often they are relatable from start to finish. You are articulating thoughts and ideas that are of value that are often pushed aside by the media. Punk and prog are similar in that they are more accessible and simplified versions of other forms, rock and classical/jazz respectively. I find it ironic that prog and punk come from British aesthetics, but the best blend of prog and punk I heard was from American band, The Tubes. The track Telecide is a prog-punk epic - an extended composition with numerous time and mood changes and brilliant playing. Prairie Prince on drums was Peart gone punk.

[@capslock9037]

So true about the English aesthetic. Amazing how the greatest rock and prog rock bands are almost exclusively English. It's really not even close. Those groups created a manner of magic and brilliance which has yet to be equaled. Making albums where you wanted to listen to every song, every time. Also interesting how the most brilliant humor was around that same time period as well, also without equal -- Monty Python.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

So glad some people are getting this point, as I know it's a stange point to make. But that is fundamentally the essence which great prog has, And the Sex Pistols have it it too

[@PsychedelicCoco]

Italy’s prog scene was also high caliber

[@davidmontgomery5047]

National Lampoon and The Firesign Theater are equally as Great as the Pythons .

[@smalltown2223]

You made me invent a game whilst listening to your interesting take on the punk scene. To mix prog album titles with punk album titles, exampleas are Tales From a Topographic Norvegicus. Selling England by the Bollocks. And so on.

[@arnaudb.7669]

The year of punk saw the birth of one of the best prog albums of all time : Happy the Man (77) by the amercian band Happy The Man. So...

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Happy the Man were awe inspiring. So fluid and beautiful.

[@arnaudb.7669]

@@garygomesvedicastrology absolutely!

[@ganazby]

Great stuff, Andy. You’ve pulled a lot of threads together.

[@nickfryearson1531]

Bravo sir! An eloquent, historical fact based look at a subject that has been distorted to the point of downright lies. I can now throw away the pseudo intellectual nonsense of the Tony Parson's and Paul Morley's of this world and have a proper mature view. As you mentioned the post punk of Magazine, PIL and joy division have prog infused in their DNA. John Lydon, Peter Hook etc have gone on record saying this. One thing you mentioned but might have been overlooked in the amazing, vast subject matter you tackled is the fact most of the early punk producers were prog musicians, even Nick Mason produced the Damned, and the punk sound was a prog creation, something that even the punk bands were not aware of at the time! Fantastic video Andy, one of your best so far!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks Nick....it's funny how NWOBH is always seen as the natural successor of heavy rock but Punk is not seen as the natural evolution of Prog. It's such an extreme view that people would accept it. But I think it is so and I hope I argued my case....

[@nickfryearson1531]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer You absolutely nailed it! I think the imagery and world building narrative of prog with the rage and energy of punk naturally leads to NWOHM. Both post punk and NWOHM are contemporary, both appearing in 1979 and both drawing from similar inspiration. It also marks a younger generation's interpretation of the genre. I do have a request, something you touched on in your video and something close to my heart. Would you give your opinion on progs influence on 90s dance? I would love to hear your take on the obvious prog aesthetic on dance groups like The Orb, Orbital, Underworld and not forgetting Steve Hillage's System 7! All have professed a deep love of prog! I have no doubt you will cover this topic on a future vid and cannot wait to see it! Brilliant as always Andy and thanks again.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@nickfryearson1531 It's a huge subject...in my opinion Timeless by Goldie., 2 Pages by 4 Hero and New Forms by Roni Size are simply prog albums. The Orb, Squarepusher, Photek are prog. The influence on those post rave albums is huge. Then you have Massive Attack, Portishead, Lamb...all really prog. But the influence was also in Grunge, in Rap Metal. Thrash which were all happening at the same time. I will get into all this but it will take more than one video I think....

[@nickfryearson1531]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I knew I'd found my channel! It's a huge area that nobody has covered... I'm sure its an area that most people have no idea exists! But you have the musical insight, experience and intelligence to shine a light onto this topic. Your listing was like looking at my record collection! I cannot wait to hear your take on it. I can't Imagine that it would get many views but you would have at least one very enthusiastic amateur interested! All the best Andy and thank you for expanding my musical education and journey.

[@manjay49]

When I saw Tony Williams Lifetime in a tiny club in NewYork July 1970, it was straight up in yer face Punk. So loud. So frigin aggressive! But. With incredible otherworldly musicianship. Awesome! Same with Mahavishnu Orchestra in 1972! In yer face, humongous sound, a million miles an hour and incredible energy. Billy Cobham ? Boom. However, after I saw MO 4 piece in 1975, it was so crazy, so intense that I gave up. They defeated me. A few years later, I was into punk and post punk. It seemed logical. It had the same in yer face f***off attitude as TWL and early MO. But It was extreme in the opposite direction.

[@grimtraveller7923]

I'm not one for gushing praise, but this damn near gets it from me. Andy, you should think of transcribing this word for word and publishing it either as an essay or a short book. There is so much "tradition" among rock critics and I have followed them for a good 5 decades and have seen time and tiime again how history is revised after the event. Punk writers were among the worst but were by no means alone. It often takes lone voices in the wilderness to match facts with the theory and the history and they often barely poke their heads above the ground because of the plethora of voices that have a vested interest in keeping the revisions _revised_. Well Andy, you've done a sterling work here. Many of the thoughts you express in the video are things I've been pondering for many years and you've put it together in a wonderfully balanced way. I'm not just praising it because I happen to agree with it ~ I like lots of good writing/video making that make points I disagree with ~ but it is something of a blessing to find someone making a point that I personally have concluded myself. The first time I remember that happening to me was back in '79 when I first heard Deep Purple's "Fireball" album, loved it, thought it was superb, then a month later read a journalist describing it as part of a trio of classics {in the middle of In rock and Machine Head} by them. That made me open both my eyes and ears ! And that's happened to me quite a few times since. One thing I'd add to Andy's words is this; most, if not all genres back in the day, had a kind of shelf life of heavy duty popularity, before they appeared to draw back and get overtaken by something else. Progressive rock/ Prog {two slightly different things in my mind} had a good 7 or so year run before other forms of music rose to the forefront. But progressive rock never went away. And its children grew up, procreated and are alive and well.

[@ivanemeny8634]

Thank you. This was such an insightful video.

[@MJ-sb5tz]

Cool !!!!! Had no idea that this guy played in frost they are one of my new favorite bands 😊

[@nielshoogev1]

What I found most interesting about your monologue is that you present a strong case for the continued influence of prog. Progressive music has to move forward, otherwise it should be called conservative music. Personally, I have grown very fond of k-pop over the last couple of years, and there too you see a strong influence of prog. K-pop groups have concepts, which they sometimes carry over trilogies of (mini)albums. Entire universes are created that envelop the songs. There are hugely popular groups like Aespa, that experiment with song structures. Most of these groups have (teams of) song writers that have studied music, and it shows in intricate details some of these songs have. Of course k-pop brings a different aesthetics, that doesn't have that typical English whimsical feel to it. It does however add classical Korean elements, and borrows heavily from Japanese anime. In that sense it adds to the musical vocabulary humanity has developed throughout its history. And it does so with an energy and enthusiasm that to me feels a bit like the British Invation of the 1960s.

[@DarksideOFcollages]

You nailed it! Today was the day that discovered your channel and I watched about 4 of your videos. Quiet execelente and congratulations! Also let me let you That I love your drumming in those particular albums especially in Frost.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@kevincorrigan7893]

What you're saying is particularly true of many of the so-called post-punk bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Cure, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Cocteau Twins, Dead can Dance, the Fall etc. Also Bowie's middle period albums Low, Lodger, Heroes, Station to Station, Scary Monsters, etc. Great video and analysis. Oops now you're talking about this - probably should wait until the end of the vid to comment. PIL Album is a great example. Many albums by Siouxsie, Dead Can Dance and the Cure in their early and middle phases were conceptual, prog-like records.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes...Punk and Prog a the flipside of the same coin and they actually hold hands with each other. What punk did was draw prog tendencies in. But the bands you describe were trying to create music with the same artistic goals as the prog bands of the early seventies. Very few people understand this except the artists themselves...

[@CasperLCat]

As a Yank, I agree that Prog is essentially British. But not Rock itself. Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly had a complete rock sound, before the Brits were putting their boots on. The Brits simply did MORE with American rock, especially with their integration of the blues into it, than the Americans, during most of the 60s. Obviously, the Beatles, Stones, Kinks, etc. hugely influenced America. However, by the time of Hendrix and psychedelic, the influences are flowing BOTH ways across the Atlantic: Jeff Beck giving ideas to Hendrix, who then makes a huge splash in London, Bob Dylan’s lyrics challenging the late Beatles, etc. Your knowledge of rock history keeps educating and challenging me, keep it up, “mate” !

[@robertochiang8057]

Some people loves Prog, some people loves punk. In fact the late 70's where "disco times", (and also "metal times"). I always thought the "Prog/punk war" was a musical critics invention. (They had already invented the "Beatles/Stones war"). OK, I'm a diehard Prog fan (and an old man born on 1954). I love Patti Smith (intelligent and consistent), respect Joe Strummer and Johnny Rotten (young and energetic at that time), but I prefer looking ahead than looking back. "Return to the original simplicity" was a Paul McCartney idea on "Get back" times. I always preferred "The Walrus" than "When I'm 64". I'm not good at playing guitar and I like to play simple music, but it would be pretentious to claim that others should listen to me and consider me successful.

[@alanwhite9466]

And some people love both. Or at least bits of both. I doubt that Prog Rock fans would have disavowed their love as soon as Punk came along and they got into that but I do suspect that when that happened they became more closeted about their love of Prog. It's possible that they may have openly flaunted it in the early '70s and it may have been safe to do so but once Punk hit and the tide turned they had to deny all knowledge.

[@neoprogfilms3045]

Paul Stump's book The Music's All That Matters covers this topic.

[@TheFierceAndTheDead]

Cardiacs...

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Now there is another parallel universe (that I wish I knew more about)

[@benjaminhawthorne1969]

Hello Andy, I imagine EVERYONE is familiar with American Band GUNS 'N' ROSES debut album "Appetite For Destruction" (1987.) I just learned about their often-overlooked release, "The Spaghetti Incident." Probably because it has such a stupid title, I never even CONSIDERED listening to it until today. It turns out that it is a quite good collection of cover tunes. It starts off with of all things, a cover of the 1950's pop song "Since I Don't Have You!" 😂 Then there is a Joe Jackson cover and some PUNK ROCK covers. I am happy that I finally heard it and feel a bit bad for ignoring it for DECADES! 😕

[@pierresternegard6951]

And that's why I always thought Cardiacs and PIL should have worked together or merged. Lydon and Cardiacs would have been awesome.

[@blastdamage]

When it comes to punk music there is no band that embodies the 'english aesthetic' quite like Crass did, in my opinion. I'm surprised you didn't bring them up!

[@paulflook1599]

‘Chas and Dave are prog’ is not a sentence I was expecting 😂

[@Civilizashum]

The argument punk cleared stuff away was never more than hype from rock journalists with no real interest in music, selling magazines. A couple of the big ones quite proud of knowing nothing about music.

[@alanwhite9466]

I tend to think that the '80s musicians were really little more than the disciples of many of the '70s artists. They came from the lineage of Kraftwerk, Bowie, Roxy, Glam Rock, Disco and Punk. The New Romantics and the other artists of the era took from the artiness and futurism of Bowie, Roxy and Glam, many of them took from the electronic sounds of Kraftwerk and the D.I.Y ethic of Punk among other things. So the '80s were the '70s music genres and artists all rolled into one I'd say.

[@ericarmstrong6540]

Is that a Henry Kaiser album behind you?

[@Psychedlia98]

I want to create psychedelic music, would say neo-psychedelic music is also prog influenced? I would assume so personally, but I do genuinely want to know what you think

[@uckbee]

When punk showed up I simply ignored it and continued with Prog. I knew what I liked...

[@devereauxclandestine1272]

Hi Andy. An enjoyable counter to the narrative that punk was the 'ground zero' for modern popular music. One thing where I might disagree a bit with you is that prog and disco had nothing to do with each other. Look forward to hearing you drill down a bit on some of the thoughts you expressed here.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

You are correct...disco can be seen as the spawn of soul/funk, Pfunk etc and electronic bands like Kraftwerk. When disco morphs into House music in the late 80s it then fuses with prog in a big way. So you are correct, it's not that straight forward. i am thinking about doing some videos on this but don't know how much interest there would be...

[@devereauxclandestine1272]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Well I for one would be interested, and judging by the comments section here a few others would be too. Just to sharpen my original claim - The Temptations 'Papa Was A Rolling Stone' sounds pretty proggy and at 12 minutes might be considered an epic with spacey guitar, electric trumpet and swirling strings. Dr.Buzzards Savannah Band brought earlier dance hall forms into disco. And Mandrill (who filled a few disco dancefloors) made what is surely one of the proggiest funk albums ever with 'Mandrilland'! The disco defence rests its case.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@devereauxclandestine1272 Yes...and the greatest disco sing ever....I Feel Love by Donna Summer is pretty proggy too.

[@alanwhite9466]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer People often compare Rave culture and dance culture to Punk and in a way I think that's true . House Music really takes Disco and adds a Punk ethic to it in that it was dance music made by DJs and producers many of whom had never been musicians before. But I tend to think that even Techno may have had a bit of a Prog influence in some ways. Techno from Detroit was hugely influenced by German bands like Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk some of whom could be considered sort of Prog. And Steve Hillage who you mention here did indeed make some Techno-type records with System 7 which I believe may have also included Detroit DJ and Techno co-founder Derrick May unless I'm very much mistaken.

[@alanwhite9466]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Definitely and influence on '80s and '90s dance music. Everyone seems to agree on that.

[@stewarttiley9683]

Absolutely right Andy! And let me tell you, the Ramones were nothing in the States right up until the time of Joey's death. I saw them all over the UK between the 80's and 90's in decent venues like the Brixton Academy and the Bristol Studio, but in the states they played hole in the wall clubs like the Living Room in Providence, RI. Very depressing. They only had one gold album (Ramones Mania- a compilation) and totally written off until his death. Then and immediate embracement by the narcissistic, shallow and hypocritical music press and critics followed, who pretended to know of the band's brilliance from day one! Oh, how I loath these critics who fake awareness and elevate a bands logo to a fashion stores mannequin. I can't wear a Ramones T-Shirt anymore; now it's merely a fashion statement just like a Motorhead or Pistols shirt! Of course critics in our mold get a pass! A biscuit sequel please!?! Maybe British crisps?

[@paulbrookes413]

Bohemian Rhapsody has been voted the best song of all time !!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

By Brian May!!!

[@mordantfilms]

Prog, at least the first wave, destroyed itself. Punk was simply a reaction/evolution. Punk definitely helped put prog in a silly spotlight. Pop music was always king, a smokescreen blocking tje masses from everything else. Those who know something about music have always gravitated towards artists who had something unique to offer. The average pop fan knows very little about the multiple genres. Prog was an extension of psychedelic and punk was a retreat back to basics.

[@cbolt4492]

17:58 PIL are amazing

[@dennismason3740]

Back in 1972 I said, to myself, "rock and roll, Great Britain, what hellspawn is this?" and I figured out the Beatles. Ringo was always at the core, swinging like a boss. I actually figured out the Beatles in 1964 but I could not articulate it. "Gub...blibble-furbot dance?".

[@dennismason3740]

@@malcmitchell9738 - Beatlemania is a lifelong condition.

[@elhatarolodohod2040]

Even in Napalm Death I see the English aesthetics.

[@sfmag1]

IMO Punk was a "reactionary" music. Reacting to the less visceral and more chops oriented stuff going on in the 70s like Blue Oyster Cult, Asia, Yes,etc. But "reactionary" is not the point in music, it is whether it sounds good and stands the test of time. The Ramones said "In the end you just have to be good".

[@cbolt4492]

Would you say The Art of Noise were prog or prog influenced? I think possibly...

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes

[@steevenfrost]

Punk couldn't destroy Prog because punk was adolescent angst mostly and blew itself off. I think prog rockers lost confidence, because they were older bands. Punk was anti establishment and the only genuine punk is, and was John Lydon's Sex Pistols. Music has to be played wella nd should be more than expression of anger. Agree about the English aesthetic,as was showed in Pink Floyd's debut with Syd Barrett, Screcrow Bike Matida Mother carries on with Genesis Selling England By The Pound and the track Battle Of Epping Forest and the closing track about the Aisle Of Plenty which name checks little supermarkets and prices.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I know people who say Punk saved their lives literally. It was a powerful music force that was needed at the time. Prog+Punk=the best of 80s Pop. A lot of punk (eg. The Damned) was pretty un-angsty. And some was actually really proggy (eg.The Stranglers) It's far more related to prog than people think. I see it as the natural development of prog....

[@alanwhite9466]

The end of that is clever the way it seugeways from the melltron melody into the the reprise of the beginning of the album.

[@Dayglodaydreams]

I like The Specials.

[@Niels133]

Punk was a commercial scam. The only punk? cd's I still own and listen to, are from The Stranglers and The Damned. The new wave that came after was more interesting.

[@christinecollins6302]

True-and The Who

[@oolongoolong789]

Andy, you seem to be arguing that any music very, very broadly defined as 'progressive' by you is in fact 'progressive rock'. But, as you know, 'progressive rock' is an historical category (as well as a marketing term) defining music that emerged in the late 60s and early 70s from psychedelic pop/rock and embraced a variety of musics such as jazz, blues, classical, non-western, etc. The term 'progressive rock' has to have its limits, its boundaries, otherwise it becomes meaningless. Blues lies at the heart of most popular musics, but we don't call funk, heavy metal, or even hip hop, blues. Do we? You're right, punk didn't destroy progressive rock, but it challenged its commercial viability and far fewer big budget concept albums were made after punk happened. Compositions generally became shorter and so did haircuts! Prog fans are right to be protective of its roots and lineage. Not everything that's 'progressive' is progressive rock.

[@lance98541]

They always say punk took over in 1977 but look at what was selling in 77 and there you will see it is all BS.

[@Carboggg]

ELP had their biggest UK hit at the height of punk with the excellent Fanfare For The Common Man. Marrilion made it big after punk. Genesis went onto become bigger than ever. Rush had their biggest UK hit with Spirit Of The Radio. Kate Bush. So Andy is right, punk didn't kill off Prog by any stretch of the imagination.

[@theobjectivethinker64]

Certainly I would say the Stranglers/Pistols were the next step in the evolution, with the Stranglers sometimes being call Prog Punk or Acid Punk. Punk in fairness was a rebellion about the political climate and poverty in england at the time, Prog was a scapegoat partly due to the T-shirt Lydon was wearing, most of the progenitors at the time liked many of the prog acts that went prior.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Punk relates to prog in the same way Bebop relates to Swing...

[@theobjectivethinker64]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Indeed and any descension towards Prog that developed as Punk established itself was not really a statement about the music itself but it's access, the large stadium bands were expensive to go and see whereas the burgeoning Punk bands that sprung from the Pub rock scene were cheap to go and see.

[@kdakan]

Prog destroyed itself, and what you classify as later prog is a lot influenced by funk and punk, most punk, post punk, hardcore, post hardcore, metal, indie/alt rock musicians didn't have prog roots yet created different interesting music for their time.

[@terryjohnson5275]

Thanks Andy, another very interesting and well reasoned video. Having been around when punk first hit I absolutely despised most of it, however as my brother was more into it I got to hear the Stranglers, Sex Pistols, The Jam (who lets face it were never punk but jumped on the bandwagon as that was the flavour of the month) and I quite liked what I heard. I think you are absolutely spot on in your description of how prog infused the music that came after, and technically Punk was progressive in that it took previous forms of music to the next level - and a lot of it was also influenced by Glam. I am totally in tune with your thoughts about the critics - unfortunately though they got to write the history as it happened and they got to influence opinion. As for today's Prog fan - on the spectrum of progfandom there aresome who if it isnt 20 minutes long or more and/or if it doesnt sound like Genesis will dismiss anything, and the other end of the spectrum there are those who will say - Yes Kendrick Lamar is Prog. WHen I was younger I was more towards the 20 minute end but in the near 50 years that have passed since I heard my first 'prog' album (ELP's PIctures at an Exhibition) I believe that I have travelled a lot further towards the Lamar end to the extent that I will most probably seek that out on Spotify and give it a listen - all I have to lose is the time I take to listen to it, however I dont believe you should dismiss anything until you've heard it at least once.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

One thing I didn't discuss in this was Neo prog. I played in IQ for a number of years and know the guys in Pendragon, Pallas etc. That whole movement came out of the punk thing. IQ in the early days are like a punk Genesis. Without punk there would be no neo prog, and it's neo prog that kept the genre alive through the eighties and there would be no Porcupine Tree, Steve Wilson etc without neo prog. So prog also needs to thank punk. I really do think those two genres are really interlinked.

[@terryjohnson5275]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer After your brilliant discourse when listening to the local radio this morning I couldnt help but try to pick out the prog influenced songs , and there were loads from the likes of Prefab Sprout, Go West, Teardrop Explodes, Manic Street Preachers to name just a few. I think I'm going to be afflicted with doing that for some while. On the matter of Neo Prog, I think it was both a reaction to the punk sound in taht I think there will always be musicians who want or even need to extend and elaborate and be creative in different ways alomg with taking on baord and not being too afraid to show their influences, and these came to the fore in the early 80's but they had also learnt not to be overly too clever or seemingly pretentious. The summer of 82 I was working in London so got to see Marillion a few times at the old Marquee a couple of times with Solstice and once with I think it was Howard Jones who unfortunately ended early after a plastic glass landed on his keyboard. My favourite NeoProg band at the time became 12th Night, afer seeing them at the Readng festival in 1983,that also had sets form Pendragn, Solstice, Pallas, Marillion, The Enid, as well as being a near final gig for Thin Lizzy with Phil Lynott and was also where Ian Gillan fronted Black Sabbath (though I refused to watch that as to me at the time it was just not right, so unfortunately didnt get to see your mucker Bev Bevan in all his glory. At the end of the day its music just done in different styes and genres which means that theres always going to be something for everyone and for some of us, such a wide choice that I rarely start to get bored or overlisten to anything as theres always something else to divert off to for a short while before coming back refreshed.

[@terryjohnson5275]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer So I've streamed to Pimp a Butterfly and the first run through I'll admit to not really getting nor liking it, apart from a couple of tracks - For Free and I - so as there was obviously something there I gave it a second and then third time through and while its still not necessarily something I would go out and buy, it was far more interesting and enveloping than I first thought, and in the same way as you turned me onto M Base, this has changed my view and opinion of rap and hip hop - or at least the style of rap and hip hop on this album. Yet again my personal musical boundaries have been further widened. For that you have my thanks.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@terryjohnson5275 If you want to hear something truly proggy with rap elements try this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2Wac3WEl7RojtU

[@dennismason3740]

...and yes, I am the Kategory Killer. Nah, it's just an act.

[@alpoe4467]

Is it just me, or was Hawkwind, somewhat of both? Shouldn't rock keep morphing? Joe Strummer, attempted to hide his "middle class" background his father was a diplomat. What about Harry Partch? Over twenty minutes is overkill. Phil Collins' influence was "The Message", Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, feat. Grandmaster Melle Mel. i.e. "Ha ha ha".

[@alanwhite9466]

Collins admits to borrowing that laugh on Mama the Genesis song.

[@geoffccrow2333]

PUNK IS PASSE'

[@marcoghiotti7153]

I agree, prog is definitely a Brit form of music, or art rather

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Vienna, definitely.

[@bakeone4406]

The prog label doesn't automatically tell you much about what you might get when you stick a recording on. Prog has become such a nebulous term that it has almost no descriptive value. Bands like Present, Univers Zero, Blast, Dr. Nerve, Can, Massacre, Curlew and Zs were pushing boundaries, were musically progressive. Bands like Supertramp, Alan Parsons, Marillion, Flower Kings, Dream Theater, Ambrosia, Starcastle and Asia aren't/weren't very musically progressive. All of these bands frequently get referred to as prog. Bands who imitate what was once musically progressive or are highly derivative of what was previously cutting edge are not necessarily progressive, but often get cited as prog, (this region of music may just move around and branch out too much for a term (like prog) to effectively define anything). Not sure about the "English aesthetic" is a core requirement to be prog or progressive claim. Bands like Focus, Alquin, Pulsar, Samlas Mammas Manna, Arti + Mestieri, Guru Guru, Kraan, Pekka Pohjola, Happy The Man, Amon Duul II, Miriodor, Tasavallan Presidentii, Loch Ness and dozens of others provide evidence to the contrary.

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Is UB40 any good?

[@cbolt4492]

I haven't watched the video in full yet Andy but I think that punk is possibly the most important genre in contemporary music

[@saintgeorge6706]

Every punk I met back then claimed to always have been fans of The New York Dolls, Velvet Underground & Iggy Pop. Even the ones who still wore flares and had shit long hair. The truth is probably they still had Rod Stewart, Wings & progressive rock records at home.

[@jannetteberends8730]

Prog was speed. Pervetine and yes is a fantastic combination.

[@dennismason3740]

Do you want to know what punk/prog/r'n'r is? Blokes and lasses who don't care about copywriting YT content. God bless Television, the object and the band. I just realized that Zep eased up on copywriting a few years ago, I respect the little miracle. Pagey and Plant really need to unload before they frikken die. When I play Kashmir I make up my own words.

[@Dayglodaydreams]

The stage shows, yes. The music, no. The stage shows were overblown.

[@tobiasinnit]

They should have called it pronk

[@billdubilier]

Music is cyclical. 60’s garage is 70’s punk is 90’s grunge is todays garage rock!

[@billdubilier]

It just faster and louder rack time

[@stuartraybould6433]

It all started after rock then psychedelic. It wasn't called prog rock. It was just call progressive. Progressive is anything new at time of release. Simple. It's the music mags and radio dj's that changed the description and started breaking it up into different things. They needed a way to explain and more importantly marked it. In the beginning it was just progressive and anything could and was progressive. Jazz Fusion, RIO, Canterbury, Symphonic prog, it was all just prog. Simple, ask Rick Wakeman. That's why all the original prog artists sound completely different. Simple. It's become complicated because of marketing. King Crimson, Moody Blues, Yes, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Riverside, Opeth, Tool, Tangerine Dream, Can, Haken, Between the Burried and Me, The Mars Volta, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Brand X, Caravan, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Eno, Jon Hassell, I could go on endlessly, all progressive. So many different styles though, you need to separate them in order to describe the music and mostly, to market it, to sell it. Talking Heads, Magazine, Joy Division, The Cure all as prog as it gets but you can't sell it as prog rock. Why not? Because the true meaning of being progressive as got lost. Radiohead, aren't prog rock but as Rick Wakeman said 'I'm sorry lads but you're as prog as it gets'. Univers Zero and Henry Cow are classed as RIO. Does that make King Crimson's Lizard, the first RIO album, so not prog rock. It's all become quite complicated over the years, why? Marketing that's why, simple. Plus, reviewers and music writers like to think that it shows they are clever and know what they are talking about, when often, they don't. Most of the time music fans know far more. At the end of the day, we are all individual and we all like different things and we all listen to different music, what does it really matter what music critics and radio dj's call it. None of them are independent anyway these days, they do and say what they are told. That's another issue though. Even Classical music is progressive. New at time of release.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I agree with all that. I have just filmed a video today which will be called 'But is it prog?' and will go a bit deeper into this area.

[@stuartraybould6433]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Looking forward to that one.

[@comfyft]

"Owner of a lonely heart..." I love the content of your videos Andy, very thought provoking channel. However with this video and a similar one you did on Punk and prog, I feel that you are wishing your proposition to be true against all evidence to the contrary. Punk as it first appeared in the UK with the Pistols was a reaction to the overindulgence that in particular UK prog by about 75/76 had become. American country rock I.e the Eagles and west coast singer song writers ( excluding say Neil Young and Tim Buckley) were also disregarded. Punk was also a reaction to how God awful the UK pop charts had become by that point. The Pistols worked on many levels and had many musical influences, from Mod, blue beat, reggae, Krautrock and prog ( Lydon was a big VDGG fan). Punks initial "year zero" scorched earth musical policy was to dismiss all those musical styles and genres that they considered passe...the punks attempted this by reduction, speed, aggression and most importantly ( initially) minimalism ( there was a strong art school element in the aesthetic of early punk). The punks aesthetic impacted the musical landscape as many of the prepunk English prog bands did not survive this "culling". The ones that did had to seriously change musical and stylistic tack. Beards were shaven, long hair cut short, suits adopted, concept albums were out , short songs were in. In short, punk had more of an impact on prog than prog had on punk. Look at those prog bands that survived punk. Genesis with Phil Collins became pop. Pink Floyd wrote "Another brick in the wall " a short spikey pop/rock song who's lyrics could have been on the first Clash or Pistols album. The band Yes attempted pop with Trevor Horn ( who was an associate and worked with Malcom Mclaren) What happened to all the other lesser prog bands after 1978 I'm sure you are aware, they either had to change style or they disbanded. After 1977 punk as a musical form "progressed" into what is now known as "post punk" for example, Pil, Gang of 4, Pop Group, Wire, The Fall ( to name just a few) however their musical progression and influences were a new set of influences and references, gone were the baroque neo classical prog rock styles, country rock and blues " cock rock" or your Led Zeps etc. In their place were the influences of Krautrock, Jamaican dub, the avant styling of Beefheart, Yoko Ono was in three, as was Funk of George Clinton and James Brown. Early electronic music...Kraftwerk were a major influence on post punk. As was Bowie. Disco crept in there also along with industrial music. Eno was a major influence. Iggy Pop etc. The musical landscape was redrawn because of punk and prog as in Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant and their likes didn't win the punk wars. Even the Stones had to change tack post 1977. Queen became a pop band. Status Quo aimed for the charts ...etc etc...all not despite punk but because of it. You'd be hard put to find the same level of influence of English prog on the UK punk musicians, the band Magazine arguably showed some influence from VDGG and maybe Soft Machine ( and funnily and contrary to the last John Lydons early line up of Pil did actually include a riff steal from a song by Yes on their Poptones song which is included on their post punk masterwerk " Metal Box". The continued influence and power of many musicians that emerged out of the punk generation can be seen in the event Live Aid. U2, Bob Geldof, Midge Ure were responsible for that event. And apart from the odd Pink Floyd's, Queens and Status Quos the majority of musicians that sang on the "Do they know its Christmas " record were to a man and woman straight out of the punk and post punk musical scenes.

[@AntonyRG1]

The greatest period in modern music happened when you had all of these strongly defined styles of music with influences coming in. What you are promoting would be the equivalent of a rock band not only listening to other styles of music but also sacking most of the band members, and replacing them with a jazz musician, a rap artist, a country singer, and a bagpiper. The end result being a hideous noise. Repeat the process across all styles of music for several decades, the final result would be a homogenized drone.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I'm not promoting anything. I'm describing what actually happened. Can you name me a punk band that was not directly influenced by prog?

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Can…Okay…but Magma isn’t Prog?! What?!?!

[@bereznickidesign]

Talk Talk are prog.

[@richtenbacker]

British !!

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Isn’t Motörhead Punk?

[@cbolt4492]

Punk probably just did a bit of a "reset" and let's be honest, it needed it 😎

[@calangobass6044]

That's quite elitist and aristocratic, don't you think?

[@AntonyRG1]

Cultural homogenization results in nothing of interest. A strongly defined culture with marginal influences mainly from outside results in cultural adaptation. The reason why towns now are so characterless is because town planning has become so homogenized. The reason why music and film over the last two decades has become so characterless is because music and film have become so homogenized. Britain was a nation with very little immigration. The limited immigration that we did have was crucially important. The last thing you need is your culture stagnating. But what you are promoting is incredibly destructive.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

'Britain was a nation with very little immigration' except for the Romans, by the Germanic peoples, by the Vikings, by the Normans, by the French, and by the Dutch....shall I carry on? And Britain has innovated in so many areas because of this, Please name a music a music culture that did not emerge without the influence of a foriegn culture?

[@AntonyRG1]

We were not a nation of immigrants. We were a nation of people that experienced a high level of culture, and a high level of cultural experiences due to the British Empire/Commonwealth. So for instance, the comic opera The Mikado was a product of exhibitions, museums, and a whole load of products from around the world being shipped into Britain. Gilbert didn't come to write a Japanese themed opera because his local town experienced a large influx of Japanese immigrants.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Speak for yourself. My mother is Indian and emigrated here in 1946. Gilbert travelled widely as a child and was educated in France. So it's interesting that his creativity was directly informed by outside cultures. The idea that artistic creativity operates as you say is untrue. Innovation happens only when two cultures directly interact. In this case through an interest at that time of japanese culture, but also obviously in many other cases, of immigrants bringing their culture into another culture. Examples would be Jazz. MusicalTheatre, Country Music, Gospel (in fact all American pop music), Latin American music, Bosa Nova, Reggae, Flamenco, do I have to carry on? Yes the culture can come in other ways but most often it is entirely down to immigration.

[@danzemacabre8899]

I think an important ingredient you both don't mention is the standard of living, where people actually have enough time to experience and appreciate the arts and culture of others , long extended times of peace and prosperity in regions usually see a flourishing of creativity in those regions

[@anfrankogezamartincic1161]

I love Punk and i like some Prog. But,to be true, Prog was lousy when Punk became the thing

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Naw...Prog itself, had the artists had their way, would never have compromised and become a bit dull. The worst Prog (1978 or so) happened after the advent of punk when record labels started pushing Prog performers to shorten their songs for more airplay.

[@johncleary6126]

There's a difference between 'prog' and 'progressive music'. There's a prog sound and formula replicated by Spock's Beard or Archive or your very own Frost. However, The Stranglers,The Police, XTC, Joy Division, Japan The Blockheads...that's progressive music...fuckin' Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet, progressive music. As you so rightly point out musicians want to improve their skills, inévitable when you want to make a living playing your instrument. To follow on from your pointed observations about the bourgeois music press, they love middle class wankers like Radiohead as they cite their influences as being velvets, television talking heads etc when it is obvious they listen to elo Queen and Rush.The fact that Thom Yorke or whoever spent days learning how to play 'Daytripper 'or 'Sylvia 'sitting on his bed is inconceivable for smug entitled bourgeois cretins who've never read a book in their lives. Harp on about double-denim shit heels like the ramones and footling miscreants like Neil Young and Patti Smith. Or Leonard Cohen. Is because it actually is shit and comforts them in their patchwork lives of mediocrity and a lack of talent. Great vids Andy keep 'em coming.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Love this...I wish I had made that Thom Yorke comment in the video...its so true...