Why Ryder's betrayal doesn't make sense? | GTA San Andreas Lore Analysis

[@draesynesofficial]

It actually would’ve made a lot more sense for Ryder to die during the green sabre mission - there were no signs of him being a traitor

[@andrej4930]

Came to comment this. Smokes betrayal would feel much harsher

[@blaze496]

There were signs of disloyalty here and there

[@sadmankhan9630]

​@@blaze496 Nope, there were no signs of disloyalty and betrayal. Only Smoke's betrayal made sense.

[@blaze496]

@sadman khan The signs: Home invasion - if you screw up by waking the guy you’re robbing before you stole enough guns, you’ll see Ryder already done a runner. House party - Ryder leaves saying he’ll get backup but neither he nor the alleged backup returns Reuniting the families - initially bails along with big smoke. He also gives cj an old assault rifle from emmet that jams; where are the better guns we spent all his missions stealing?

[@sadmankhan9630]

@@blaze496 Bro, first of all. Ryder is a coward. The home invasion mission does say that he left. He is a runner. Also, CJ never failed that mission. So, it doesn't count. In house party, I think they forgot to add him. This happened with another mission, he was seen there but now, he is nowhere to be found. Rockstar's fault. Ryder was never suspicious. Those signs are not against him at all.

[@Marcus_shawn]

He was never meant to betray us.. rockstar and the voice actor had a disagreement...all Ryder's missions were helping grove street as far as getting stronger

[@super_slav91]

The actor actually replied to a comment once but didn't say much other than saying that's all they wanted from him. I reckon pay dispute and NDA.

[@gaminginvestigators]

That's true, Ryder's betrayal doesn't make sense at the early stage of the game. If they were going to make him a traitor, they should have included some major changes in the missions. For instance, make Tenpenny visit Ryder more often and more suspiciously. That way, we wouldn't be shocked to see Ryder and Big Smoke in the "Green Sabre" mission cause it would make sense.

[@glinzaglinza7917]

That's true. Even in pier 69 he said a repeated sentences 'you can't stop me' that's a reason for that

[@317Waves]

i heard it was because he got arrested so he wasn’t available to finish

[@Marcus_shawn]

​@@317Waveshe was recording a album and he thought he should've got paid more by rockstar

[@strangecloudsgaming3678]

Imagine if Ryder’s voice actor didn’t leave. That story would’ve been 10x better

[@plewisjr90]

I remember him addressing that & he said he didn't leave, he just apparently wasn't "needed" any more, what ever that means

[@sadmankhan9630]

Ryder's voice actor did not leave. He said he was underpaid. He is still involved in the makings of Gta 5. He made the soundtrack of Gta 5. He didn't quit Rockstar. He just didn't want to voice Ryder anymore. It is his fault.

[@billgoat9345]

@@sadmankhan9630 no it’s rockstar fault for always underpaying voice actors

[@strangecloudsgaming3678]

@@billgoat9345 that’s what i was told as well.

[@treolds8482]

​@@billgoat9345 Exactly the same situation happened with Niko Belic"s voice action GTA IV was bigger than predicted with huge sales yet Rockstar didn't boost the pay for voice actors and instead reaped the rewards which is why many voice actors never return to the series

[@terencemackay1990]

It still buzzed me on how Ryder was dragged into that, he was the real homie 😢

[@gaminginvestigators]

Yeah, it doesn't make sense when you look at the first set of missions where Ryder appears. But if they were to change them, however, that would be a better option than leaving a mix of two concepts.

[@99mrpogi]

Yeah. Ryder being a loyal homie until the San fierro and las Venturas would have given cj more Ryder Missions in which the plot involves cj and Ryder stealing more weapons

[@lufetm]

@@gaminginvestigators they should have left every mission the same and just make Ryder die in Green Sabre or something, thus making him loyal to the gang till the end

[@rohitsawant4212]

Cesar once said to cj that he tried to bang his sister💀rockstar wild

[@lmnjce]

Ryder's betrayal actually hurt me more than Big Smoke ever did when I was a kid. It really never made sense to me. I can already hint back then that Smoke was a total bs to the grove because he was eating instead of shooting the Ballas during the drive-thru mission.

[@gadgez_]

The BS is even in his name

[@crimsonking440]

Smoke moving and the new area he lived in being purple as hell was a wrap for me.

[@ajboss924]

​ @crimsonking440 To be honest both of there betrayal doesn't make sense. The game should've end with all four of them together

[@kaiman593]

​@@ajboss924 smoke had been hinted to be a traitor since near the beginning, ryder never had any of those he was always cool.

[@ajboss924]

@williamy4999 Oh please! There were barely any hints. Yall are just saying that because you've played the full game. And what I said still stands. Big smoke betrayal doesn't make alot of sense and should've never happened. Not all stories need to have a betrayal to be good just so u know

[@alexallen126]

I always felt like it was a last minute change. Ryder is really your first best friend before Caesar. I don’t think there was any intention on killing off his character until last minute. Plus he was always the most “grove street” out of all of the members. He would have been the LAST PERSON besides sweet to become a traitor. It just didn’t make any sense. I woulda rather him died from an overdose

[@darthonloey321]

Ryder is not your best friend smh he is a hater friends don’t hate on each other .

[@channel45853]

@@darthonloey321 he makes fun of and critizes you for leaving, but he is no hater

[@darthonloey321]

@@channel45853 Ryder is a hater lmfao regardless of what you say man’s Ryder love sneak dissin CJ

[@daniloka42]

​@@darthonloey321Sneak dissing? Yeah, he talks a lot of shit and he's a coward. But he doesn't yellow in front of CJ. 3:15 just look at how he keeps talking his talk after CJ shows up in this cutscene.

[@waters228_91]

@@darthonloey321 "Fucking Ryder, man! That was my **HOMIE**! And I've killed him!" He and CJ grew up together as friends from childhood, and Ryder was just pissed at CJ for running away after 5 years.

[@apieceoftoast768]

I suspect Ryder was originally gonna have The Truth's spot in the CJ team; He also worked with drugs and stealing from the military. Ryder being alongside CJ throughout the rest of the game would've also given oppertunities for Ryder to ease up and forgive him.

[@snakeeyes2551]

I'd like to imagine if they hadn't had Ryder betray Grove St. during an interaction between him and CJ he would've said something like I know I'm hard on you sometimes, but you really are my homie and I'm glad you came back.

[@99mrpogi]

Ryder should have been another loyal ally and friend to cj and sweet. And if Ryder never betrayed the Gsf, Ryder would have probably been banished from Los Santos like cj, Cesar and kendl. Ryder could have also resided in San fierro and las Venturas, provided several missions for CJ in which the plots of most of these missions involved cj and Ryder stealing weapons from various locations in San fierro and las Venturas including homes of retired army veterans or ammunations stores.

[@weirdface1846]

it could've been a scene where ryder says how cj made up for his mistake of leaving los santos and grove by fixing everything. with ryder too of course

[@thelightbulbguys]

I like seeing people getting back into this game. It was always my favorite

[@91Definite]

Yeah the missions were wild especially learning how to ride a plane 😂

[@ajboss924]

​@@91DefiniteI hate that one. It was sooo fucking hard

[@JosephPagepublic]

The first time I beat the game, I still felt super sad that I had to kill Ryder. Anyone else noticed that he only has interaction with CJ, Smoke, and Sweet and no one else? He and Kendle never talked to each other once.

[@chidimanuelz2742]

But cesear said ryder tried raping CJ sister

[@JosephPagepublic]

@@chidimanuelz2742 Kendl would have told everyone and Sweet would have killed Ryder, but these things never happened. Besides, Ryder only had interaction with 4 other people in the whole game.

[@reddsmoke904]

​@@chidimanuelz2742ppl also say that Ceasar prolly said that to make CJ feel better about killing him.

[@BioshockDrill]

​@@reddsmoke904nobody says that

[@reddsmoke904]

@dougrichards8017 one if these content creators said it. I forgot which one

[@e-satan9032]

Yeah, I was wondering why in those missions CJ only mentioned big smoke betraying them when he also clearly saw Ryder.

[@SantomPh]

he called Ryder a "bitch" so he was following Smoke's leadership . So Smoke was the one whose betrayal hurt, as Ryder is a follower and was more likely to harm CJ unlike Smoke.

[@xxlCortez]

Because he was meant to show up only later but Rockstar chose to put him in the Green Sabre mission without much adjustments on CJ's lines.

[@waters228_91]

The fact that they had Cesar randomly mention Ryder trying to "bang" Kendl only made Ryder's role after the second act of the storyline even more poorly written considering they had done nothing to even hint at the alleged action. I'm just disappointed how Ryder was relegated to an unimportant, minor character who is barely even mentioned and gets killed off in such an unceremonious manner. One of the most iconic characters in the game with so much wasted potential.

[@HomTolland0]

You cant stop me. I am a genius fool

[@mattryan5706]

It's because Ryder just muscle while Big Smoke was a criminal mastermind. Even in the evidence this guy provided he mentioned the green sabre during the cluck and bell scene and big smoke put him in check a moment where he was like i said too much.

[@backthefuckupoffme9767]

@@mattryan5706 And that's what makes Ryder's betrayal poorly written.

[@chillyroom8159]

Man as painful as the wasted potential Ryder had in the story,your comment mentioned this In a really accurate satisfying way

[@outlaw_of_adlers]

I think Cesar told that to CJ so he stops worrying about Ryder's betrayal but indeed all of these changes were rushed.

[@nitrosodium]

Ryder's VA might've not been available for recording after 1/3 of game's development because of rap career, and it was up to R* what to do with the character. Still, appreciate how CJ showed remorse in a cutscene after having to him.

[@super_slav91]

The VA apparently responded to a comment saying they didn't want any more lines from him. He did not say much just basically, "nah that's it". My guess is disagreement and NDA between Rockstar and VA.

[@NemesisOgreKing]

@@super_slav91 MC Eiht has said R* had him come in to record lines for 5 days and that's it. He's also stated working with R* was great. If there was an NDA, it would have expired after San Andreas came out. He stated this in a podcast, don't remember the name, sorry.

[@nitrosodium]

@@super_slav91 when he said that I thought "oh he wasn't in bad terms, he probably told R* he's busy and they said ok we're satisfied you can go". In facts, as a rapper, he might've had to go on tour.

[@Zehahahahahahahahahahahaha]

Maybe he lied about Rockstar didn't want any more lines from him maybe he's just busy or something

[@super_slav91]

@@NemesisOgreKing unusual maybe they did the lines before the story was complete and didn't know what to do with Ryder.

[@gandalainsley6467]

They probably did not know what to do with the character. It sometimes happens.

[@kakacoco5]

They should have killed him off in the Green Sabre mission. He could have died and honorable death.

[@gandalainsley6467]

@@kakacoco5 Johnny should have had a fight with Trevor also and then should have died but that did not happen either.

[@SamGudGuy]

@@kakacoco5 The bird said that they did not know what to di with the character, So maybe they only thought about that after the release

[@idcgetoffmypage]

@@kakacoco5then the game will be short

[@gaminginvestigators]

That's really understandable, you know. The bigger problem is that they managed to introduce a new character arc in San Fierro, but when you are looking at the missions at the early stage of the game, there are not many indications that Ryder is a traitor.

[@chiapets2594]

Game was a Masterpiece imo. But I think that the writers rushed the plot with this and destroyed the narrative turning him into a backstabbing rat he coulda been written so much better

[@jason615lakers]

Alot of 2004 games were rushed . Maybe they didnt want it to make it to the 360/ps3 cycle because it would've required them to make a different version lol

[@anchorsaweigh9893]

I like the idea of him dying or him also being wounded and arrested and possibly sent “upstate” to San Fiero to split up Sweet and Ryder. In San Fiero maybe Wuzi had some connections to protect or free him while there. I think their reunification and taking out Tenpenny and Big Smoke would be epic.

[@crimsondemon2231]

The one thing I feel you missed was how big smoke constantly redirects the conversation, which gives a subtle hint at his affiliation.

[@LegonTW0]

7:50

[@91Definite]

Big Smoke always bring something else during a conversation which leaves CJ confused

[@richardtrager7125]

@@91DefiniteWhen I was young and playing this game, I never understood a word that smoke said.

[@randomchillguy55]

Had Ryder stayed loyal to the Grove Street Families, 1 of 3 things could have happened. 1: Ryder dies during the events of the mission The Green Sabre, 2: He Goes into hiding after the mission The Green Sabre and doesn't reappear again until Sweet is out of jail, 3: Ryder moves out of the city and helps CJ in the countryside, San Fierro, and Las Venturas eventually working their way back to Los Santos.

[@99mrpogi]

Ryder could have claimed that he has experienced traveling to las Venturas and San fierro. Much like in Los Santos, most of the plots of Ryder's missions in san fierro and las Venturas has him and CJ stealing weapons, in either military bases, the residence of a war veteran or ammu nation stores

[@shortyg1018]

Killing off Ryder in green sabre along with Sweet going to jail would've really portrayed that "everything is fucked" feeling that rockstar was going for even more for CJ.

[@99mrpogi]

@@shortyg1018 yeah. Like Ryder tried to warn cj and sweet of big smoke's attempts at betraying them. In the middle of the gunfight, Ryder then gets shot by a ballas member and then died while being held by sweet and/or cj

[@randomchillguy55]

@@99mrpogi i think it worked out better for Cesar to tell CJ the truth about Big Smoke, because at that point in the story line CJ didn't fully trust him, but having been shown the proof of Smoke's betrayal, it showed Cesar was a true friend.

[@99mrpogi]

@@randomchillguy55 yeah. It probably won't make sense for Cesar to just tell cj about big smoke's betrayal without any proof considering that cj has known big smoke for a longer period of time long before GTA San Andreas takes place whereas Cesar only became friends with cj during the first half of the game so it won't be easy for cj to fully trust Cesar without any proof

[@miguelpasamano4995]

It makes sense if Ryder was working undercover for Toreno but CJ and Cesar didn't give Ryder a chance to explain himself.

[@josephgowling1794]

Would have been a quality twist that

[@BRUNOvsALADEEN]

If the rapper voice actor of Ryder never left Ryder must've just talked about it like when Jizzy, Big Smoke or Tenpenny are getting killed

[@Alithepro105]

Yes ur right and ryders my fav character it doesn’t make any sense they just had to make him the hero he was originally supposed to die in the green sabremission when fighting with the ballas

[@gaminginvestigators]

Yeah, I also think that he should have died during the "Green Sabre" mission. I mean, even if they were going to make him a traitor later on, Rockstar should have changed some missions in the early storyline so it would fit the new character arc...

[@HeySlickThatsMe]

You're saying that he was supposed to die like it's a fact but it's not, he was never supposed to die in green sabre, there's simply no evidence he even had an appearance in it

[@samach739]

"Same old CJ, busta, straight busta." Ryder. 😂😂

[@gaminginvestigators]

Ryder, not this again...

[@TOKIDOXIKA]

I believe Ryder was not supposed to be a bad guy, but the developers needrd more plot, so they decided that Ryder would be a betrayer in the middle of development. That would explain his behavior

[@Sendmeyourlocation]

True...but getting rid of Ryder made no sense to anyone..my younger brother and I literally couldn't get around it.

[@LouieV6]

It was actually that MC Eiht, who voiced Ryder, left in the middle of development because they didn't pay him enough.

[@TOKIDOXIKA]

​@@LouieV6I'm pretty sure that's a myth

[@XYZ-eo8um]

There would be another possibility, but once again, it would need a better execution: That Ryder could have joined Smoke and Tenpenny when Green Sabre happens, convinced by both that at the time they speak, Sweet is already dead along with big part of Grove Street members, and either he joins them in their "business venture", or joins them in a dirt nap. But as I said, It would still need proper dialogues in cutscenes.

[@Aven-Sharma1991]

If Smoke’s house was in Balla territory then how come nobody from Grove was suspicious enough to wonder why? Why wasn’t there an undercover Grover in Balla hood in a neutral coloured car? Watching Smoke’s house? There might’ve been Ballas going to his house and someone could’ve taken photos etc. That could’ve been a few extra missions in the game. Maybe given by Sweet who could’ve been suspicious of Smoke and wanted CJ to maybe dress in a different coloured outfit and stalk Smoke and follow him around and gather info.

[@TheKillerEmcee]

Sounds like a pretty dope mission to me

[@theshamegame2787]

Like Smoke isn't gonna recognize CJ in a Balla disguise, voice would be a giveaway if he had a bandana and sunglasses.

[@sheriefwoodard8686]

That would’ve given away the twist

[@Aven-Sharma1991]

@@TheKillerEmcee: Lol, who said CJ had to be close enough to smoke, that’s why I mentioned taking photos? Also he could’ve broken into Smoke’s house and searched for info

[@Aven-Sharma1991]

@@sheriefwoodard8686: If it was done inconspicuously then maybe it could’ve worked

[@alialsadiqgamingchannel8100]

Ryder never deserved any of this. he doesn't deserve to die...

[@miguelpasamano4995]

Ryder's alliance with Smoke and betrayal of not the Orange Grove Street Families but mutiny against Sweet and CJ makes perfect sense. In the InTroDuction, we saw Smoke recruit Ryder in the betrayal. In the mission Drive Thru, we saw Ryder knew all the details of the drive-by on Grove Street and Smoke wanted Ryder to shut up lest Sweet and CJ catch onto them. In the mission Home InVasion, we heard Ryder call LB not their homie but his homie. We don't know who LB is. In the mission Robbing Uncle Sam, we heard Ryder tell CJ he doesn't know what's going on (i.e. the planned mutiny against Sweet and CJ in the Orange Grove Street Families and truce with the Ballaz). If Ryder wanted Sweet and CJ to know, he'd've just showed them where Smoke meets up with TenPenny and the Ballaz. In the mission House Party, we heard Ryder claim to get Smoke and some more Orange Grove Street Families but saw them never show up. If Ryder wanted to get back up, he'd've got out his phone and called. Ryder bailed. In the mission ReUniting the Families, we saw Smoke and Ryder bail on Sweet and CJ. In the mission the Green Sabre, we saw Smoke and Ryder were still in Orange Grove Street Families colors and Smoke was the leader in the betrayal while Ryder just smoked his pcp. RockStar just didn't include Ryder's name in the betrayal like they were supposed to. When we did the courier missions, we saw the drugrunners were none other than Orange Grove Street Families. This is all in the beta releases too. MC Eiht repeatedly said that's all RockStar hired him for and helped in GTA 5 which debunks the "money disputes" hoax. Ryder most likely planned to betray and overthrow Smoke and TenPenny and take over the operations all by himself.

[@srsrerror7761]

i wish that ryder's voice actor didn't stop voicing ryder i love ryder and i was sad when he become a traitor just because of voice acting issues

[@mafia_gamer_official30973]

Ryder is one of the best homies in the entire GTA series that I love. Also, his actings are funny and chilling. Even my homie is looking similiar to Ryder. 😂

[@gaminginvestigators]

Your homie must be wearing a cool cap, then! I love Ryder too, he is a great character and seems to be well-written apart from the San Fierro storyline where he teams up with the Ballas all of a sudden.

[@mafia_gamer_official30973]

@@gaminginvestigators - Yeah, sometimes. ))) Ryder one my favourite GTA characters. He is the coolest and chilled guy in the family. Even though he messes with CJ and mocks him sometimes, he really loves him as his best friend from the childhood. I hope that GTA San Andreas got any DLCs back in 2000's, like GTA VCS or GTA LCS. To let us know the backstory of the GSF gang or some facts about them.

[@bajapujadiaz6684]

Ryder was going to take a backup at the house party mission, in which ryder himself told the families hes going get big smoke and more backup

[@Destroyer94100]

His betrayal made little sense because most of the stuff we do with him actually benefited the gang and he felt like one of the homies. The voice actor actually did say that he recorded all the lines Rockstar wanted him to which suggests he was always gonna betray the gang.

[@SonnyFRST]

One of the many problems with hiring Celebs to voice act, although Rockstar could've just gotten a substitute to record a few more lines for this proposed Death at the Intersection Fight. (better yet, since the intersection is a spot you pass by during the intro mission maybe they could've done something there with Ryder to make his bit in the story end where it begun)

[@philipjohnsson2676]

Ryder is like a hybrid of Smokey from Friday and a real south central Gangster. Kinda sad they ended him like that. Probably the most contriversial death in the series

[@buincqv67]

It would be either vic Vance or Pendleburry. Or Salvatore. As they're deaths affect the timeline of the game and future games. Brian's death also .

[@buincqv67]

Ryder death should've held more value , Cj shouldve talked more about Ryder and they never even made Cj tell sweet about ryder. His death should've had a negative effect on the player like you lose half your respect or sevile blvd gsf members will start going after cj in LS until the end of the game or something even tho ryder was orange Grove.

[@red_chicken_not_redchicken1800]

@@buincqv67 Orange Grove is a beta name for Grove Street.

[@commandervile394]

He was clearly inspired from Eazy E from NWA.

[@muvdafukupouttahere]

Honestly, I feel that if they were gonna write Ryder in such a perfunctory manner, they shouldn't have even included him in the game at all. I would much rather have him not be in the game altogether at all than have him written so horribly as a traitor.

[@Lonewolf-jv5yo]

In a fanfiction written I think by watters20 he wrote this long gta San Andreas story but it's worth it it's the same as the game except Ryder never Betrays Grove Street and Smoke didn't recruit him in the first place and does it solo how there was a hint that Smoke was trying to back out but Ten Penny threaten him. So yes Ryder does not betray CJ and the others he also does not die but instead gets taken along with CJ after the shoot out and by doing this Ryder character gets expanded upon and in the fanfiction he has a older sister who unlike him is a responsible figure and like CJ she used to live in L.S before moving east. Also the Character L.B mentioned by Ryder Also appears as side/support character and the unlike the the original was fabulous so highly recommend to read it if you liked the game

[@muvdafukupouttahere]

@@Lonewolf-jv5yo Oh I read that FF, and it portrayed Ryder so much better there than in the original storyline.

[@Lonewolf-jv5yo]

@@muvdafukupouttahere Damn straight it did

[@alanscott6005]

@@Lonewolf-jv5yo I know this is a comment from long ago but where can I read that fanfiction?

[@razorbeatbox6030]

In earlier game development, Ryder was supposed to die in the mission where Sweet was badly injured, just like you said in the video.

[@kingaxxidnt2484]

Listening and watching this made me feel extra nostalgia than normally thank you for the ultimate breakdown

[@frzn_moon]

Plus unlike Smoke, Ryder kept living in his home at GS

[@darthyvardyreal]

The Betrayal was the biggest tragedy, even though we should've seen it coming due to the last 2 games. Last Dance of Vance Lance

[@91Definite]

I was so hurt that Lance betrayed Tommy 😢! And all Tommy did was lookout for him! When I played the game as a child that shit fucked with me

[@kevin9989]

He was antagonistic to CJ to an overt extent, and I think meant to be an enemy in a more complex way (the game seems to lose a lot of quality after the Los Santos opening). CJ even remarks at some point something along the lines of "one of these days you will regret pissing me off".

[@xerxes5785]

I remember even when I first played this game, my conclusion was that Ryder didn’t wanna betray us in the beginning, but later on Big Smoke talked him into doing it whereas Big Smoke who was always on the other side.

[@Praetorian8814]

What about this theory in the mission Drive-By; Smoke *intentionally* tries to miss as much as possible (not possible with how the AI was back then tho) but story wise it makes sense. He doesn't wanna draw MORE suspicion after the Drive-Thru. Plus with three people spraying automatic gunfire from a moving car, it would be hard to tell who's bullets hit who, so he could play it off like he shot them when really he was trying to miss!

[@SamGudGuy]

Yeah i think he should've died in the Mulholland Intersection fight but I have seen a video about beta content that GTA SA actually had Character Switch like in GTA V, The Three characters are probably Sweet CJ and Cesar but due to Sweet being in prison for most of the game i believe that after the Green Sabre mission when Sweet gets arrested,Ryder will take place as the 3rd character to switch into making him have a much more bigger role into the game, but due to Ryder leaving the set and scrapping the Character Wheel this was the only thing they had to think of that time

[@brandonperez8977]

The character switch was removed due to PS2 limitations

[@SamGudGuy]

@@brandonperez8977 Oh yeah sorry I was sleepy while commenting this

[@gaminginvestigators]

Yeah, apparently there were plans to introduce a character switch in GTA San Andreas. However, it was quickly abandoned due to PS2 limitations and the user Silent highlighted that it was probably to be only 2 characters, but we don't know which one.

[@SamGudGuy]

@@gaminginvestigators Only two then it must be CJ and Cesar And i feel that even though SA had many things to do it was rushed, i mean many things were probably deleted seconds before their release

[@fowof]

You never know when you’ll be scrolling and realize how into GTA:SA lore you are

[@jpebrz]

Man played this game almost 20 years ago and im still heartbroken that Ryder betrayed us, he became my favorite character up to that point, such a shame to know that his betrayal was not even meant to be

[@Grandmaster_Dragonborn]

What's baffling about Ryder's betrayal, is that regardless of his actor leaving, it was still unnecessary.. All they had to do was have Ryder be with Sweet fighting the Ballas in 'The Green Sabre' & die in the process, a simple cutscene of him getting shot & CJ screaming *"Ryder no!"* So Ryder dies loyal to the Grove as he was supposed to, and we & CJ hate Smoke even more as he got Ryder killed, and we go through the story mourning his death. Then at the end when CJ goes to confront Smoke, he says to Sweet: *"I let Brian die man, this one's for him, for moms', for Ryder, and for you bro."*

[@youtubehodol3989]

Ryder looks like Muhammad Gaddafi on the thumbnail lol.

[@nightmare171]

I also think Ryder wasn't supposed to survive Green Sabre mission. Only voice lines he has after that till his character's death are "Can't stop me" and "Cuz I'm a motherffing genius" which are both re-used voice-lines from previous missions.

[@_lynxninja_4783]

He could also be like the final defense of the Grove Street when CJ is away again and Sweet is in prison. He died while defending it.

[@claudedavis201]

I always thought it was weird we had to kill Ryder. As a kid he was always my favorite character cuz he looked like Eazy E. I wish things had played out like you said. Sure it would’ve been sad as a kid to see him die but as you said, it would’ve made him a legendary gangsta rather than a traitor.

[@Komentatorius-sj2dn]

If the Rockstar would be more serious about their voice actors and storytelling, they could have hired Ice Cube to voice Ryder and make an arc of fall and return for him. The same goes for GTA where they also based a character on a real actor and even invited him to do voices overs but the pay wasn't enough

[@DARKNIGHTHOURS]

You guys are right on point, in smokes missions it doesnt befenit grove in any way but ryder just wants grove to be better equipped, although in that mission with big smokes order its almost like he is shushing ryder because ryder kept poking at who killed cjs mom but then why go through all the effort ryder did to help grove idek, stupid that they made him a traitor, as someone pointed out in the comments it would be more tragic if he died during the sabre mission, this way was just kind of silly.

[@xxlCortez]

This is actually a myth. Ryder was always meant to be a traitor. However, he was first meant to show up during the photo mission, not the green sabre. The voice actor himself said he recorded all the needed line and a bunch of beta stuff prove that he was meant to die instead of T-Bone. The reason his betrayal doesn't make sense is simple: bad implementing and poorly thought out storyline, unlike Big Smoke's.

[@vinny98nyc]

Ryder should've gotten arrested during the mission where they were at the hotel and the police raided it. CJ went to save Sweet while Ryder stood outside shooting with the GSF members. Ryder would then call CJ throughout the game from then on

[@bacd-nn2lg]

I still did enjoy Ryder character in games, even if it was poorly executed due to original voice actor problems with Rockstar.

[@christianreiss7203]

As I heard, Ryder was not supposed to be traitor. Devs made him atagonist because Ryders voice actor left Rockstar during developement. That is reason why there are almost no Ryders voicelines adter you left LS. They made him traitor because they couldnt develope Ryders character. In my opinion it would be better that they killed Ryder and at the end of the game reveal that killer was Smoke because Ryder find out soething he was not supposed to. It would have big impact on CJ because only one left from "gang" would be sweet. It would be more dramatic because in the original storyline all protagonists survive after the End of the line. It would make stakes higher if they killed Ryder instead made him traitor and protagonists would not have this imortal vibe

[@HeySlickThatsMe]

More like the voice actor recorded all he was asked to record and rockstar just wrote him poorly in the later part of the story, he was always supposed to betray you based on many evidence such as the introduction - it's already an evidence in itself because how would Ryder's VA record the lines for it if he already had left? And there's clearly dialogue with Smoke where he's trying to pull Ryder onto his side, along the voice lines in game files where Ryder comments that Smoke was always right about CJ etc, the theory with the VA having a beef also has no evidence of ever existing and is just BS

[@scottm7310]

"Big Smoke seems way too sympathetic to CJ... He will hardly ever say a bad word to him." *ALL WE HAD TO DO WAS FOLLOW THE DAMN TRAIN, CJ!*

[@DefinitelyNotATrolldier]

Failing missions is not canon

[@T995-p9h]

This video has been done to death seriously. We all know Ryders VA left early it's been covered about a bajillion times but it's always interesting to hear a different take on it.

[@jamalwashingtonfilms]

You've accomplished what by saying this?

[@StefanNovovic]

Made u mad, thats enough.

[@SupportGamin2024]

You mad boi?

[@hrnbrigade4991]

stay mad

[@Mirra2003-f9s]

Even if Ryder's betrayal was forced,it did make a little sense too why he'd join Smoke. CJ always criticized Ryder during his missions . In Reuniting the Families both CJ and Sweet called Ryder a joke yet he did more for Grove Street than Smoke did. Smoke's missions were just Tenpenny's errands while Ryder's missions gave better weapons to the homies

[@Abstru5e.]

Ever since i found out what actually happened with ryders character, i also proposed that he shouldve died in the mission green sabre. it just makes sense and makes a big impact on the story. not sure why rockstar would continue his story with no dialogue for the character.

[@Vengeance10164]

I think there's been a few videos of this topic on this channel and I'll say the same thing. Ryder was always meant to betray you it's just that Rockstar explained it wrong. They accidentally copy and pasted Ryder into the Green Sabre cutscene. He wasn't supposed to betray you until the mission Photo Opportunity. CJ acts surprised to see Ryder there which explains his betrayal perfectly because from that point on Ryder is mentioned in cutscenes as a rival. Someone copy and pasted Ryder into the Green Sabre cutscene which caused all this confusion if they never did that then people wouldn't question Ryder's betrayal. I'm also a firm believer that all the missions where Ryder is "helping" Grove Street he is actually helping the Ballas because he always makes us take stuff to LB (aka Lil Balla?) and he's keeping things from the Grove.

[@jesperbottenheft]

Wish more people would see this. Everyone has the voice actor bullshit. It was a speculation by Kenny if im not mistaken or another youtuber.

[@flaimthrowerzatwes19]

So, uh, you ever read the rewrite version of this game's storyline in Wattpad?

[@hofnarrtheclown]

No Ryder Wasn't Meant To Betray You His Original Concept Literally Was To Be Taken Hostile By The Ballas And Rifas And That In The Mission Pier 69 Cj Would Go Alone To Fight The Ballas The Rifas Also T-Bone And Maybe Jizzy Because The Script Wouldn't Of Been Changed But Rockstar Stupidly Made Him A Traitor After They Didn't Didn't Know What To With Him After That And That In The Beta Version Of The Photo Opportunity That Cj Wasn't Supposed To Know How To Fly A Helicopter Yet But Yeah Rockstar Changed It Mostly Because They Didn't Know What To Do With Him And Made A Traitor With Barely A Reason Which Was A Bad Choice Since He Was Always Loyal Even Jealous Of Cj But Not In A Bad Way And He Always Hated The Ballas So You Don't Have Proof That He Supported Them When The Grove Members Would Even Appear In Ryder's Missions That Shows He Truly Was Always Working With Us But Then Rockstar Later Added A New Cutscene In The Green Sabre Mission When Ryder Is Clearly Visible There And Doesn't Get Mentioned At All So He Was Never Meant To Betray Us But The Voice Actor Didn't Really Know Too Much About That So He Just Said "That's All They Wanted Me To Do" But LB Was Already Shown To Be Part Of The Seville Boulevard Families Not The Ballas

[@Vengeance10164]

@@hofnarrtheclown I'm going based off beta missions and known facts of the game. It's not fan theories.

[@e-satan9032]

Hofnart, get lost.

[@jason200912]

Mc eiht actually came out recently and explained what happened. He says he didn't ask for more money but that Rockstar simply wanted to save money and cut him off. Basically it was the business division of Rockstar that discontinued Ryder to save production costs. It also set the precedent for why Rockstar only uses no names so that they can keep the costs low at 60k annual salary per main character voice. Mc eiht was not salaried to my knowledge.

[@jason200912]

They also brought him back to do the GTA 5 song. Sounds terrible but whatever. They put alot of his songs in GTA San Andreas radio too.

[@zoltanbojan8035]

Yeah that sounds like Rockstar.

[@KingACE05]

I loved that you Mentioned The Professional & his Lore Videos to come up with some great examples on why Ryder’s Betrayal was Pointless

[@RocketHarry865]

Imagine if Ryder voice actor stayed and there was a story of Ryder being torn between conflicting loyalties between Big Smoke and Sweet. Having Ryder in a dilemma of either entering the Crack trade with Big Smoke allowing them to earn the money and power needed to protect Grove Street from the other gangs at the cost of destroying the hood with the hard drugs or sticking to Sweet and the principles of fostering the spirit of the community of at the cost of perpetual poverty and the Families being too weak to stand up to their rivals

[@99mrpogi]

Ryder would have probably been a loyal ally and homie to sweet and CJ.. in the return to Los Santos chapter, Ryder would have probably appeared in several missions for sweet in which Ryder fights the ballas alongside sweet and CJ. In the final mission, sweet cj and Ryder then drives to big smoke's factory. Both Ryder and sweet offered to accompany cj to which cj then tells Ryder and sweet to stay behind.

[@Memory_bro]

Why he never called CJ on phone?

[@muhammadfahimmansur2086]

Just a memory: When I first played GTA SA, I was stuck in the mission Catalyst for a long time because I could understand the controls. After 2-3 weeks, a cousin helped me finish it. The next day, I started playing like a madman, skipping every single cutscene including the one in the mission "Green Sabre". After days, suddenly in the mission "Pier 69", the game tells me to kill Ryder and I was absolutely confused. That's how much out of place Ryder's betrayal was.

[@Shushkin]

Out of place? You skipped half the story

[@Vengeance10164]

That's your fault for skipping the cutscenes.

[@muhammadfahimmansur2086]

@Cloudy Cloud true. However, even after that, I still knew that Big Smoke was a traitor.

[@muhammadfahimmansur2086]

@Shushkin well, I only skipped cutscenes that one day. However, I saw them later on when I played those missions again, and none were such that you won't understand anything happening without seeing the cut scenes except for "Green Sabre." So lesson learnt, and I never skipped a cut scene again when I played Vice City later.

[@gaminginvestigators]

Well, that's what happens when you are skipping the cutscenes. But other than that, I do agree that Ryder's betrayal wasn't made properly - especially in the early stage of the game.

[@meatyofficial]

Ryder and Smoke should've lived. The game would've been so much better with Ryder and Smoke being your friends until the end. The families team against C.R.A.S.H, the Ballas, the Vagos, and the Mafia all trying to attack Grove Street would've been much more satisfactory than the cold ending we got that left me feeling unsatisfied. They made up for it somewhat with the third way ending in GTA 5 though...

[@99mrpogi]

Though betrayal is a key element of GTA games in order to let us know that our closest friends will eventually end up betraying us

[@DefinitelyNotATrolldier]

Not every story needs a happy ending, the ending being unsatisfying is exactly how the characters would've felt.

[@mpomp6378]

Cool video, solid presentation, definitely subscribing!

[@Hyperion520]

Disagreements between the Ryder voice actor and Rockstar is what got the character killed off. Every mission for Ryder had no signs of betrayal. They were all for the Grove Street families. Smokes missions were obivious he was a traitor. His were all about himself. Not the homies.

[@Koronuru]

Tbh, it would be better if Rockstar didn't messed up Ryder even more like at least they should made Ryder was actually let's say after The Green Saber incident, Ryder was actually kidnapped by Ballas or Ryder manage to escape LS and his story continues but in Pier 69 Ryder was killed by Smoke or one of Ballas members.

[@timothyblevins6733]

The biggest mystery is what's up with Sweets neck

[@aastik99]

Ryder actually did not betray grove street Big Smoke set up CJ and Sweet to be kicked out of Grove Street Ryder had no option but to work for Smoke Ryder in the introduction said money is cool but bullet can't stop him Otherwise why would he run from CJ in pier 69

[@gaminginvestigators]

Unfortunately, he did become the traitor in the final version of the game. Some people like me prefer to take his beta character arc and believe he didn't betray the Families, but we can't forget about the final version as well.

[@e-satan9032]

On that mission he said he's a motherfucking genius, showing that he was willing to betray and become selfish. Sounds like his VA too so nothing to do with him leaving in case people wanna start that argument.

[@aastik99]

​​Ryder is just an ordinary gangster whom CJ and Sweet knew from childhood and made friend All gangster and mafia members are mainly for money and don't care about who is giving them money

[@aastik99]

​@@e-satan9032Ryder sees CJ in Pier 69 and says he's genius because he survived in Grove Street by changing sides

[@troypowers750]

Didn't Ryder side with Big Smoke in the preview short film?

[@josephinthechickensoup123]

His betrayal didn’t make sense, cuz for the green Sabre mission, CJ always mention smoke but not Ryder, Ryder was suppose to not betray but due to the actor quitting, they changed his story.

[@petermj1098]

Ryder was Big Smoke’s crack slave. Ryder was no different from Big Bear but Ryder got more consumed being one. Big Smoke personally gave Ryder crack and Ryder in return allowed drug trade in Grove Street to happen. Weird Ryder wasn’t around to stop a crack addict woman from tempting Sweet. Ryder said he laced with weed with “water” that was code for PCP. It wasn’t PCP it was crack.

[@nathdgem]

I learned from somewhere that Ryder was ment to be a traitor but much later in the game, after Grove Street got betrayed by big Smoke. Don't for forget that big smoke convinced Ryder to join him in the intro.

[@GreenEagle-p7z]

Yes and if the introduction was before the game that means he ment to be traitor or if it made after the game that means Ryder voice ACTOR still work with rockstar

[@jakestephenson3681]

I’ve been watching these lore videos all day I don’t know how I never picked up on half this stuff before

[@PremierAutoMan86]

For a long time I didn't think Ryder was supposed to be a traitor either, but after some thought he definitely betrayed GSF before CJ arrived. He knew the "deal" between Big Smoke and Tenpenny, and he never told CJ. Ryder was Big Smoke's right-hand man the entire time. Also, don't forget he ditches CJ if the colonel wakes up during that gun theft mission.

[@Xegethra]

I think he ditches him because it's a way to reset the assets for a retry.

[@madhunter6420]

​@@Xegethranah

[@Xegethra]

@@madhunter6420 Well, yes it is. Otherwise he'd just despawn, it's a disguised despawn.

[@Marcus_shawn]

That's why Ryders missions were to get cj and grove street more weapons.. he's no fool,in his mind once the crack and money got to big in the city gangs were going to just start beefing even more so much so tennypenny or toreno wouldn't of wanted to get in the way of those bullets

[@June28July]

I can't take Ryder's death seriously. Behind the scenes drama was the reason he was taken out, not because the story called for it. R* is bad with voice actors. I just like pretending Ryder went off on a vacation.

[@lilek3031]

Ryder was my favorite character in the game I was confused asf when he betrayed the gang it just didn’t make sense…this video explains it all thank you

[@jandelc37]

PROTEST REWORK STORY. MAN ryder was a homie but they did dirty to him accidentally because the voice actor quitted or out of the production.

[@shutit4024]

I try to look at it like this, Ryder was a true friend till smoke and tenpenny threaten him to join their team mid way in the story , but I felt along the way he slowly was finding out about what smoke was up to.

[@yokuzo11]

I kind of get what y'all saying about how it seems that Ryder's betrayal appears like it doesn't make sense but you gotta understand what espionage and infiltration is about; It's about staying low key as possible so you can accomplish your mission; Clearly, Big Smoke and Ryder were gonna benefit heavily from the betrayal, but Ryder didn't wanna just be Big Smoke's right hand man and he definitely wasn't gonna be under submission to CRASH; Ryder was the type of gangster, who would want to be viewed as a equal status OG to Big Smoke, and if he needed to, he would have a hell of an ambush plan for Big Smoke and CRASH if they tryed to downplay him

[@Marcus_shawn]

We use to get gta games yearly.. even gta 4 to 5 was 5 years.. San Andreas to gta 4 was 4 years.... we've been waiting 10 years + plus for 6

[@cheezybread7783]

i luv these analytical conceptual videos in GTA!!!!

[@byrdbino_95]

The background music at the beginning from the first game is golden

[@tjeastcoast1556]

That drive by mission would've been complicated without Big Smoke as a 3rd gunman. Especially with ped skills installed.

[@ykxd66kslxykyuiclucmud6ksks]

Ryder: CJ's you still a busta

[@gaminginvestigators]

Busta, straight busta...

[@Lonewolf-jv5yo]

I finished reading a gta San Andreas fan fiction story where smoke still does betray Grove Street but doesn't recruit Ryder and does it solo but unlike the original Ryder does not die instead instead he gets taken along with CJ and sense he didn't die or betray Grove Street his character gets expanded on and it's revealed in the fan fic he has an older sister name Lisa who like CJ once live in L.S but later out east also in the fan fic the Character L.B mentioned by Ryder Also makes a appearance when CJ needs a car to race and Ryder and him appear in a tow truck from than on L.B is used as support character after that

[@cajunkeels]

After the Green Sabre mission, WCTR News talks about the shootout between Grove Street and the Ballas. The news reporter mentions that several senior Grove Street members were killed. This could indicate that Ryder (a senior member of Grove Street) was originally supposed to be killed during the mission and never meant to be a traitor.

[@os_dz3947]

the gameplay that was playing in the background looked good and clean, any chance to tell us the mods u added to ur game?

[@Loaded0525]

I wish they could’ve atleast made it where we didn’t have to kill Ryder and make it where Ryder gets killed by the ballas

[@RiC3R69]

I Always Loved Ryder I Always Knew he didn't betrayed us

[@harambae7014]

I understand they had to write Ryder out of the story early because of issues with the voice actor, but they could have done a lot more with it. Either he should have died in the battle with the cops as suggested, or maybe instead he finds out about Smoke's involvement with Tenpenny and the Ballas so they kidnap and murder him to stop him exposing them, but Ceasar witnesses it and tells Carl as part of the reveal of Smoke with the Green Sabre. I think having Ryder die at their hands would have added more emotional weight to the overall story and made Smoke and Tenpenny even bigger villains.

[@Snicketbar]

There were many grandeur plans for Ryder. The reason we never got them, was due to conflicts, the voice actor and Rockstar had. Resulted in them leaving in the middle of production. And the character getting a very pathetic death. As a sort of final f u from Rockstar

[@jdaimaoh765]

I think that Ryder's betrayal is just an advice in disguise: anybody can betray you if they want

[@MrLyosea]

What I don't understand, is who CJ is referring to when he says "wtf" after Ryder comes out of the green sabre garage. It couldn't have been a simple balla gng member cause CJ already mentioned ballas walking out the "dope spot". So it had to be some iconic character.

[@captainsmartass3368]

I will love see a video on Which betrayal in the Grand Theft Auto franchise had the biggest impact in the Grand Theft Auto franchise 1. Catalina in GTA 3 2. Lance Vance in GTA Vice City 3. Big Smoke in GTA San Andreas 4. Jerry Martinez in GTA Vice City stories 5. Vincenzo in GTA liberty city stories 6. Darko Brevic in GTA 4 7. Michael De Santa in GTA 5 8.Franklin Clinton in GTA 5 if player picks A or B 😉 My birthday is on the 15th of this month

[@shadowking773]

Bro can you do videos from gta 4? It is slept on game and has so many theories if investigated deeply

[@WatchMeCreateHD]

That GTA 3 espresso 2 go clip gave me ptsd

[@frankcastle8397]

@gaminginvestigators in the Green Sabre mission who should be in Ryder's place during the cutscene? B-Dup? Big Bear? The member of Grove Street who wears a basketball jersey?

[@shubhangikhade1077]

No one because it was created later in final version and in beta there is only big smoke cooperating with tenpenny

[@vincentguzman7056]

I'd go with B Dub. B Dub told us early on that all he cared about was the drugs and money. Just like Big Smoke. I could see them working together with Tenpenny against grove. But B Dub and Bear is barely in the game. Their voice actors were probably not paid enough either

[@frankcastle8397]

​@@vincentguzman7056I also thought of Emmet in this scene.

[@PEN1killer]

What if Ryder tried to go behind Smoke's back and sabotage his plans by supplying Families with better weapons? I know it feels kinda stretched and all, but that would make some logical sense. Big Smoke held him at the gunpoint, not literally, but he forced Ryder to help him in GSF betrayal, as introduction movie kinda points it out.

[@Xegethra]

I don't know if the Introduction was made before, during or after the game was done. It feels like it might have been afterwards because if the betrayal were planned all along, it should have been done way better than it was.

[@jason200912]

That's the biggest reason for why he isn't a traitor. He literally upgraded the grove street guns in two missions. Meanwhile CJ has spray paint the entire state to finally upgrade grove street guns

[@Marcus_shawn]

That's what I always thought

[@91mrpogi]

Like In the pier 69 mission, ryder could have probably attempted to re-defect back to CJ and Caesar's side, ryder tells CJ that he was intimidated by big smoke and ryder got killed by getting shot by a ballas member

[@treynelson4946]

Not to mention, Big Smoke lived RIGHT in the middle of Ballas territory!

[@notyoursavior78]

Huh weird. I never did play this game too much except for the beginning act sometime after the fact in a collection. I was well aware Big Smoke betrayed CJ as just it's just something I found out already and I used to play and watch a friend play this game in the later parts of it, I seriously don't remember or ever saw this brief betrayal by Ryder. I don't know why I am so surprised about this, but I just thought it was Big Smoke and Ten Penny only. Strange maybe I just assumed he just left the story and just never asked about him to that friend of mine.

[@pineapplesmoovey7898]

I think if you look at Ryder's personality and their strained friendship the betrayal definitely could have made sense if Rockstar developed the story better