Why Science & Secularism Come From Christianity

In this interview, I chat with author Tom Holland about his book "Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World." In it, he argues that our morals and ethics are not universal but are instead the fruits of a very distinctive civilization. Concepts such as secularism, liberalism, science, and homosexuality are deeply rooted in a Christian seedbed.
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#Science #Christianity #TomHolland

[@jotink1]

Tom Holland is the best I could listen through him for hours. He has a deep and profound perspective of the world. He has some issues that we all recognise that only a spiritual encounter with God himself may help him over the fence.

[@jotink1]

@@cygnusustus Tom Holland is honest and informed. What you should consider is why you don't think he is.

[@jotink1]

@@cygnusustus Have you read any of his books?

[@jotink1]

@@cygnusustus Tom commented on all your arguments in this interview and gave his reasons why your position isn't totally accurate. Tom is a professional historian whatever he says isn't out of dishonesty. You may not like what he says but he is far from being dishonest. He replies to all your objections and puts forward the driving force to get us where we are rather than those who dabbled. China may have done some form of science before the west but it was as Tom points out the Christian ethos that drove science in the west.

[@jotink1]

@@cygnusustus So you haven't read his books and then call him dishonest. Like I said he is a profession historian and researches do he is not dishonest. He you want a more thorough refutation of your position then read and study each side.

[@jotink1]

@@cygnusustus Tom is a professional historian who would have done his research. If you disagree with him that is not him being dishonest. Dishonesty is knowing the truth and saying something contrary. Tom is not being dishonest any more than you are if you have researched your position yet draw different conclusions Both cannot be equally true which is why Tom mentioned your points and said you are mistaken not dishonest If you need a thorough refutation read his book as I am presently doing. If you refuse then your own position as far as I am concerned is doubtful and has been obtained from other opinions from people who think as you do.

[@petar_xyz]

It's refreshing to watch a humble person like Tom Holland speak so honestly about his understandings and beliefs about Christianity and the world we live in. I'd love to see him back on Capturing Christianity sooner rather than later. Great interview, Cameron!

[@miltonwetherbee5489]

I think part of the beauty of Christianity is we believe in God who created not only is, but this vast, intricate universe we live in. A universe that speaks to the immeasurability of God. And that just serves to underscore not only how weak we are compared to Him, but it also underscores just how much He loves us that we tiny, weak things are vastly more important to Him than the rest of the universe. We appear as smaller than specks, yet He died for us. We are incredibly weak, yet we are loved to the extent that the God who created everything became one of us to save us, and all we have to do is accept Him, desire to be with Him and to be as like Him as we can manage, and even though we fall so short of His glory and perfection, our acceptance of His mercy allows us to be with Him. The universe is there for our benefit, and as a testament of who God is.

[@Portekberm]

Tom Holland speaks so very well..

[@extract8058]

Yeah Christopher Hitchens also spoke well yet his rhetoric proved to be nothing but vapid demagoguery

[@extract8058]

Holland's attempts to disassociate Greek and Roman philosophy from Western thought and ideals while tying said ideals to something of later middle eastern origin is preposterous to say the least.

[@ivanuribe]

Tom Holland seems to be a nice guy. Very pensive, and gives genuine thought provoking responses. I really enjoyed this interview Cameron. :)

[@MojoPin1983]

Cameron, as you probably know, Justin Brierly had both preeminent New Testament scholar, N.T. Wright, and Tom Holland, on an episode of his Unbelievable? program, a few years ago. Could you please consider having Tom back on your show to talk with William Lane Craig? I feel that Craig could help answer some of Tom’s questions, such as the struggles that he shared in this episode. If that were to come to fruition, it would be ideal if said episode could be longer than an hour.

[@calebp6114]

^

[@LoavesofBread]

It does seem odd that an objection is that humans are comparatively insignificant to be so important. Is there a Pascal's Wager about meaninglessness vs purpose? Of all life that we know humans are the only one that can fathom existence, beauty, and higher logic. I don't understand why we think about creation from a materialist perspective. All outside influenced, unique, one-time events can't be explained by naturalism. They can only be pointed to by knowing they occurred outside the natural order.

[@Nornagest84]

This was really awesome - and very telling, that it needs an atheist (kind of) to remember christians to stick to the bible. Thank you so much! I'll pray for Tom to be able to believe. ☺🙏

[@rw3452]

I’d love to see you both do more episodes! This was great 👍. Tom if you’re reading, thanks for all you work, I loved your book!

[@christopherlin4078]

When a man dies for something greater than himself, he changes the lives of those around them and lives not yet lived. This applies to all those that seek righteousness. When it pertains to Jesus, Jesus died so he himself can become a representative of humanity and its flourishing and its salvation.

[@1ho2ruk]

Great talk guys! Thank you!

[@milesmungo]

The concept/idea of the secular is so interesting to me. The separation of church and state, and the emergence of the scientific methods/revolution equally.

[@moesypittounikos]

A big catch for your podcast friend.

[@aaronhanson5014]

Tom: "There's nothing like Jesus" Internet atheists: "What about Horus?"

[@eternalbyzantium262]

Lol thats been debunked.

[@extract8058]

Holland isn't Christian. Cameron himself mentioned this in the intro

[@extract8058]

Internet atheists generally attempt to avoid acknowledging deities like Horus even exist since it stymies their attempts to strawman the concept of a deity as an easily caricatured Abrahamic one. They prefer to attack the low hanging fruit of Christianity as opposed to more robust theologies like polytheism and pantheism which more effortlessly show atheism to be false.

[@killedinthezone1]

@@extract8058 how does polytheism and pantheism more effortlessly prove atheism to be false? what does that even mean? Are you referring to atheists that claim that there are no Gods? If you aren't referring to that definition of atheism then your argument is invalid.

[@vecumex9466]

@@extract8058 Tom defined himself as part of the evolutionary and fluid tradition of Christianity. In that sense he said that he is a Christian. The rest is just tiresome, counterproductive, endless exchange.

[@internetuser777]

Such a good interview. It should have more views

[@medot8296]

Great Video as always!

[@carlosreira413]

I just want to comment so I can see my name connected with this, yet another Tom Holland interview. Thanks to Cameron; what you do and how you do it is just beautiful.

[@oisinofthefianna3246]

Very impressive program!

[@hillarebelloc6014]

Read Tom's book, really good. Looking forward to reading his earlier book, In the Shadow of the Sword

[@calebp6114]

In the Shadow of the Sword is very good, if a little dense. I'd very much recommend Rubicon and Dynasty, which are his books on Rome.

[@extract8058]

No thanks. I have books I haven't even gotten to yet.

[@Apriluser]

What a winsome guy. Thank you for bringing him on.

[@bradleymarshall5489]

Currently listening to Dominion thanks to this interview. It's a fascinating book told like a novel yet packed with history.

[@IsaacSimmonds]

Wow, really interesting to see how Tom Holland has changed his approach to Christianity over time, from following his journey on Speak Life and Unbelievable podcasts.

[@dm-gq5uj]

Holland addressed a Humanist organization in 2015. You can really see the change in his thinking. He was much more dismissive of the idea of God then.

[@brandorev]

That is a very large bookcase. Love it!

[@user-vf5mx8fh8j]

Stanley Jaki, priest and physicist, wrote about this almost 50 years ago.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

I have that exact same diplodocus model from when I was younger!!

[@lannyrayconnelljr]

I’ve never seen Spider-Man but I have read Dominion, the original Tom Holland is my favorite Tom Holland.

[@kimkung8772]

Don’t hate me but I like Andrew Garfield

[@denversuyom6540]

Would love to see Cameron interview Tobey Maguire

[@petery6432]

Or Andrew Garfield

[@AndreBalbuena]

Lol

[@watchman2866]

I can't say I share Tom's confidence in the alternative explanations for creation. The secular arguments tend to adopt a view that they've copyrighted the term natural and associated terms then banned the theist from using them. They seem surprised that the biblical God couldn't or wouldn't create nature to function in a consistent and reliable way.

[@BeRitCrunk]

Fantastic guest

[@zgobermn6895]

Read the entire book recently, fantastic!

[@EmperorsNewWardrobe]

2:30 so this is what inspired Ayaan Hirsi Ali

[@overthinkingchristian8732]

I have Holland's new book on Audible. Groundbreaking.

[@st.mephisto8564]

Holland should read more about the Cosmic scope of Christ to make sense of him in a grander scale

[@BibleLosophR]

At 42:33 Holland explains that it's the smallness of humanity that hangs him up from becoming Christian. But if he more fully rounded his amazing knowledge of the world with even more science he would recognize how the fine-tuning of the universe suggests that things have been set up in such a way that embodied conscious agents could exist to contemplate the universe and their origins. As Robbin Collins points out, not only discovery [science], but the discovery of discovery [i.e. our ability to do science] suggests the importance of humanity to God. See for example the book "The Privileged Planet" by Jay W. Richards & Guillermo Gonzalez; and other books by authors like Hugh Ross et al. Watch some Robin Collins' videos on KZbin and read his materials.

[@bethlemmon]

Tom seems like to be a lovely man. I think him listening and perhaps interviewing Dr. Michael Heiser would help him greatly with his belief in Jesus. Talk about weirdness, he wrote the book Unseen Realm that explains the supernatural mission and scope of the Bible. Also he needs to read Reversing Hermon a great book on the forgotten mission of Jesus Christ lived out while he was on earth that is not taught in churches. Think those two books would help him greatly get a bigger cosmic view of Jesus and why he died and rose again. Also he should probably get with Rob of sentinel apologetics who is a Christian and an old earth/evolution view of the world. Also may be Inspiring Philosophy YT guy, forgot his name.

[@dineongoepe5477]

Hugh Ross also could help him answer some of the questions he has

[@theMantas4444]

Tom made me rethink my thoughts.

[@pavld335]

About what?

[@thysvanzyl2782]

I come from a Protestant background. But I hope so that Tom Holland will find some time to investigate, amongst others, the Franciscan Theology of Richard Röhr - in particular Röhr's 'Universal Christ.' 🕊🌿

[@warb_of_fire]

Would it be possible to cut the part with no audio out?

[@brentbrouwer6135]

"In the Shadow of the Sword" is utterly brilliant and worth reading more than once. May be thrice for me. The writing is gorgeous. He is sneaking up on you Tom.

[@estuchedepeluche2212]

In the last 300 year or so, we have seen advances in medicine, technology, engineering, behavioral and social sciences -even in the humanities- that save lives, make life easier, facilitate communications, calculate the age of the Earth, and so on. This makes me wonder, what advances have theology and religious philosophy made about God and what benefits have we received from that new knowledge?

[@dblev2019]

Good book with a fresh perspective. Reading through Paul’s letters as well as the book of Recitation the mystery of Christ / the mystery of the gospel was something I failed to properly ponder. Holland is right, the world around us has the fingerprints of Christ so embedded in the current culture, it’s difficult to image how radical the teachings of Christ truly were. Holland seems to capture why Christ and the gospel were viewed as strange in the opening pages of the book , then reinforces the disruptive nature the gospel brought to the social order of the Roman world in the following chapters. The transformative teachings of the Gospel of Christ truly did turn the Roman Empire upside down, and has ushered in a set of values which has endured ever since. I would have to agree with Holland, when talking to atheists embrace the mystery!

[@discipleofchrist7119]

Ha! I was actually talking to my boss (who is a devout Catholic) a couple months ago about another video that tom Holland is in, and his reaction was, you mean spider man?

[@corinaijac4381]

Love it. This summer i realised, allready knew, but this last summer realised that the sea is a living creature. Corina

[@danglingondivineladders3994]

I've read some Holland books. Millennium was really good.

[@danglingondivineladders3994]

he is a type 4 atheist, gnostic apatheist. knows a lot about religions and does not have anything against them.

[@06rtm]

34:10 The myth is true, not because it offers a scientific description, but because it presents a symbolic description that reveals a pattern inherent to reality. Thats what makes it true, and that why it bears fruit in the world. It reveals some aspect of reality that when engaged with will produce positive effects. We get so caught up in the scientific analysis, but ancient people didn’t engage the world in that manner. We cant hold them to that standard

[@intrynsic]

Why was the title changed?

[@Hbmd3E]

Im so proud of my self didnt know the spiderman Tom

[@esauponce9759]

Tom Holland is awesome!

[@Hbmd3E]

46:38 There is no figure like him, he is convincing portrayal of a man who is God 46:53 There is nothing like Him, there is nothing like Him in the field of literature, field of believe.. goes on with interesting explanation. Cam: Ok lets move on like is not even listening because focusing on the chat :) :P But he does rock! Had already read the book and chat really takes an effort.

[@Andre_Louis_Moreau]

Ugh, he is so like me! An absolurely brilliant man, who came to all my conclusions, without any help from me. "All our assumptions of 'good', and 'bad', are Christian". If I didn't like him, I'd sue him for plagiarism.

[@markpriore3151]

The True Tom Holland needs a conversation with Jordan Peterson. Yesterday.

[@christiangadfly24]

Ankylosaurus is the best dinosaur.

[@paulkelly1162]

Dr. Holland, isn't it only logical that God would reveal himself in a marginal, particular time and place? That all of history would pivot around a crucified slave? The moral sensibility that grounds Christian ethics is the same metaphysical sensibility that grounds the resurrection. Indeed, by privileging the cosmologically and temporally immense, isn't that a Roman intuition that God is revealed by the strong?

[@livearmadillo9347]

Tom, I suggest that God, by means of volcanoes, meteors, continental drift or whatever, brought the ferocious, largely brainless dinosaurs to extinction so he could evolve (transitive verb) us to where he wanted us to be? Similarly, he brings pretentious nations and individuals down and raises up a remnant. Survival of the faithful. See Psalm 2 and my poem "Evolve Me, Jesus."

[@livearmadillo9347]

See also the "overcomers" of Revelation 2-3.

[@miltonwetherbee5489]

Everyone has to be born into some religious or non-religious group. And if there is a God, only one religious belief can properly be right about God. We can feel like that's unfair and somehow wrong, but it's necessary of a rational universe. I think this argument is an emotional one that doesn't have any logical bearing. That's not to say that it's trivial, because we all have our emotional roadblocks that we have to come to terms with.

[@internetuser777]

All beliefs are “wrong.” Anything you can mentally comprehend is only capable of giving you a shadow of the truth. Religious dogma is the map, not the treasure.

[@joelmontero9439]

Wait this is not Spider Man!!

[@Hbmd3E]

stay and listen

[@06rtm]

33:43 This is an overemphasis on the scientific understanding. If a car takes people from A to B, you don’t demand to understand its method of propulsion. The overwhelming majority of people have no clue how their car works. Its not that important. The utility of the car is the important thing. Tom has established an overwhelming compilation of all the ways in which the world has been moved in a positive direction as a direct result of the story of Christ, but refuses to get in the car because nobody is able to explain the method of propulsion.

[@robinhoodstfrancis]

I'm an Interfaith progressive Christian, empirical and trans-natural, and it sounds like Holland is caught up in doctrinal hyperbole about Jesus, despite his spectacular and divine qualities. It has to do with integrity, and resurgent integrity, and social movements, and problem of materialism vs spirituality. Interfaith spirituality, then, is what remains for Christians to learn their own shortcomings in US economic ideology, and Social Europe's non-spiritual materialism and institutionalized religion.

[@Gemparkzz]

My observation is that during the middle age, Christianity became the compromise between Asharism and Mutazilite, while Islam was Asharism taken to the extreme.

[@BlaiseChesterton]

Tom keenly points out a major problem with the belief in deep time for Christians. If young-earth creationism is true (as I believe it to be), then his hang-up is completely resolved because there's a very short time from creation to Christ, and God is active in history for that entire period.

[@Hbmd3E]

50:50 >>2min gold nuggets

[@vishaldavidmoses5880]

This was so beautiful Cameron. I hope and pray that Dr. Tom Holland comes to Christ. Man, I'm truly taken aback by that conclusion.

[@biel6492]

That is a great interview. One thing for the sake justice. The Christianity we are talking about here is Catholism, the only form of Christianity that existed until the the 16th century.

[@corinaijac4381]

In the north of Australia they had motherhood, not fatherhood. What might be the best for me isn't neccesarly the best for my own brother, born from same parents. Corina

[@faithhope6154]

1Co 15:45 45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit G4151. G4151 Original: πνεῦμα Transliteration: pneuma Phonetic: pnyoo'-mah Thayer Definition: the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the Spirit) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of 1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides the soul, a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting a life giving spirit a human soul that has left the body a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ. Adam the First and CHRIST the second. God is over all. Abraham is not father of all but the figure of how he walked with God through his life and why he is named Father of the earth not Heaven that still and always will belong to the I AM. Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I AM not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Joh 8:18 I AM one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM FROM ABOVE: Ye are of this world; I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD. Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins. All through John the I AM is noticed as Jesus Christ why for God is One with Christ. Amen our Lord Jesus Christ is the I AM.

[@zacharyruschmeyer4932]

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

[@robmckay5421]

cool about the Dinosaur bones.

[@corinaijac4381]

my ,,neighbor", a hungarian coming from hun,.., told me he has words he can not translate to me to explain the weird in words is different Corina

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Tom your "hang up" does make sense but I think you can look at anything that way and also take another simultaneous perspective. For example, I studied evolutionary biology and there are two schools of thought according to textbooks trying to differentiate and apply reductionist modelling to the modellers themselves - those who model evolution as slow, gradual change over time, and those who view it as a series of steps - punctuated equilibrium. In reality, most biologists are open to both. Now our history MUST be a long gradual change that includes punctuation. The resurrection is one such punctuated moment of sudden change with a divine purpose to restore equilibrium but so too was our clumsy disturbance event that set of a domino effect to cause the imbalance in the first place. And in between has been a slow gradual process of preparation and discipline to convict and prepare first the Abrahamic lineage from which Christ was born and now after the event is another gradual process of grafting the rest of us onto that same rootstock that God our gardener preserved from the rot. Now before this, there was an even longer period of preparation but we all acknowledge this in history since the cosmos was around for so long before us. So being Christian actually supports our seemingly irrational sense that our tiny short existence means anything at all and that doesn't matter how disproportionate the time period is. Without it the dillemma you speak of has far more weight.

[@gabenorman747]

Evolution is fictional nonsense.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@gabenorman747 I went to study biology thinking I'd show them why they were wrong. Two lectures in and the evidence presented made evolution an inescapable conclusion. But after looking into Genesis it became clear that there was no contradiction. Sometimes people fear being contradicted so much that they dig their heels in, lean on their own understanding, and miss witnessing the glory of God revealed in His creation. Creation reveals 3 family trees of life that all correspond from genetics, geography and fossils and it requires an unfathomably awesome creator to do that. But it is not fiction - it is as clear on a large scale as in your own extended family. You may as well be offended that we are made from the same physical material as the rest of the world. The physical came from the spiritual and does not define our spirit so why get caught up? God creating us from dust is the same thing only less unnecessary detail.

[@Tommy01_XO]

I personally think punctuated equilibrium and gradual change are not mutually exclusive in principle, but one will make more sense than the other given the context. What’re your thoughts?

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Exactly, the're both involved, akin to any process of change we experience.

[@06rtm]

37:20 If aliens appeared it wouldn’t controvert the story of Christ, it actually provides a reinforcement of it. The message of Christ was unity through love. Love is necessary if we hope to have any prolonged interactions with an alien. Thats our own critique of western imperialism. We encountered cultures alien to our own, and our failure to engage them with love led to otherwise avoidable conflict and tragedy. Love is the thing that unites people despite their differences, and thats never more true than in an encounter with the alien or the foreign.

[@Hbmd3E]

Articulate, intelligent, sophisticated, . Some of these Brits have climbed higest :)

[@Hbmd3E]

@@cygnusustus Yes that condensed line of letters forming the words, forming the verse; is true in its pure mathematical truth value, as equation in which letters have also value as numbers have

[@tan1591]

@@cygnusustus you: “reason and evidence are my gifts” Reason and evidence: obviously not.

[@tan1591]

@@cygnusustus “lying is your gift” Ironic.

[@sqlblindman]

@@tan1591 Not really. It is reasonable to expect people who's worldviews are based on lies to have to resort to lying to defend them.

[@tan1591]

@@sqlblindman yeah atheist are so desperate that they have to resort to calling other liars without evidence and lie to defend their world views.

[@patrickjm1935]

Hmmm, i think i can relate to tom holland(the author) im a ex christian, now agnostic(i still love christianity tho) morally in ethic i am christian, i describe my self as such, no longer spiritually but morally, of life aspect. I've read many comment that said its wrong blabla by saying western based on greek or roman, okay then, where is the athenian democracy? Where is the spartan way of life? Where the incest party of greek god? Where is zeus raping girl in modern world? Where is the gladiator and the colliseum. The fact that those thing happened in roman or classical world is the proof you need that there's distinct differences between christianity shaped world and greek and roman world Some of you may argue that, europe christian have slavery over the black or such, but did you know servant and slaves were different? The bible allow slave or servant, but there is a rule of course there is not to do as you like, we are not savages, servant or slave were important, if you applied christian teaching on a slave you could free them or treat them nicely, if you apply roman teaching oh boy.... Why does slave or servant is important ? I think because, even though it not morally right, even if god forbid it, it would be useless right? So why not teach them how to treat the slave better? It cannot be compared to god commandment such as kill, why? If god forbid to murder, some will do it anyway, there is no such thing as treat your murder victim better, but with servant or slave you still can. If you set them free there's a chance! Of them being caught again... Some of you may say christianity brought dark ages, not true but there's some truth in it, it was the christian in power that did it. Not christianity teaching, and some credible sources said dark ages may not be so dark afterall. And the Renaissance happened dont they? And most of them are christianity believer, they did not renounced it. And christianity brought advancement to the western world, some of you may said that, most people were christian back then, yes i agree, but there's also people like Machiavelli, he is not a christian. In the french time there was also voltaire, hmmm? Some of you may bring up the crusade, the crusade is about militaristic quest with religion as the cherry on top, the purpose is, reclaim jerusalem/ take, stop muslim conquest on christian land, and stop christian persecution by the seljuk turks, you think you guys would live freely like this without christianity tolerance? Hahaha if christendom does not show dominance and lost to calipahte like abbasid, ottoman, we all would be muslim by now, dont hope theres a chance of lgbt, feminism, woman equality. You guys know that video about the screaming lgbt woman on the street? The male said jesus love you of some thing, and she screamed, yes that wont be a thing. Some of youay said things like the ten Commandments is not something distinct to the judeo christian world, its not a moral teaching breakthrough, oh yeah? Tell that to the viking, the fact that you lived in christian shaped world, made you feel that this commandment are not disctict, you your family, have lived in this environment far to long. The more i read the comment, the lower my regard to european or american, they perceive that they are superior in economy, science, knowledge. how have lived in to much said "free"dom. Look what those freedom lead? Anarchy, to much freedom like in the west is an invitation to chaos. A wise man said democracy is for the people, from the people to the people, but the people are mostly retarded, that is you guys.

[@hillarebelloc6014]

Tom's explanation for the emergence of science from the Christian world as aposed to the Islamic world due to the differing views of God also explains the different way in which masculinity is expressed between Christian and Muslim men.

[@estuchedepeluche2212]

A important question is can God create two Tom Hollands and only one Spyderman?

[@2009walah]

i think Marvel already have them

[@Orthoindian]

I wanted spiderman lol

[@immanuel829]

Tom Holland should ask palaentologist + former atheist Günter Bechly about Dinosaurs 🙂

[@amberfreitag42]

I think God is a scientist and either that or he has superpowers

[@Bc232klm]

They may have similarities, but to say they're rooted in Christianity is ignorant.

[@stranger-zf9dd]

They are rooted in Christianity. Especially secularism and liberalism

[@matthewentwistle8284]

As a Christian, I can somewhat get where Holland is coming from in his assertion. But the logic isn’t strong enough.

[@thepalegalilean]

@@matthewentwistle8284 What are you talking about? Literally every single assumption you have did not exist in the pre Christian world outside of a little strip of land no bigger than New Jersey. It was called Judah. Everything from your conceptions of democracies in republics, To social orders, To the caring of the poor, to even the very conception of human rights all come from a uniquely Christian perspective of the world.

[@vivliforia2262]

After Spiderman retires... 😁🙃

[@gussetma1945]

If TH turns to Christ it will be in the Catholic Church.

[@carlosf3421]

Christian Orthodox explains the hang up he has.

[@julianholman7379]

he wants to identify christianity with the quest-for-truth, but that may be something hellenic /'the greek miracle' that has accidentally been fostered within christian culture

[@corinaijac4381]

If christ died for humanity, he can not be dead... Corina

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

Many atheists will rightly complain that, “even granting Tom all of Jess points does not make Christianity true, ie. it wouldn’t mean that God exists, that Jesus rose from the dead, etc.” *But* many of those same atheists *also,* in the context of theism vs atheism, trot out examples of atrocities committed by Christians and the church... So, to those atheists, I simply say: methinks thou doth protest too much.

[@williamtrotsenburg9821]

In the book of Job chapter 40 it says something about dinosaurs. Its just if you believe the bible or not.

[@Eric123456355]

The only problem with Christianity is fundamentalism/literalism people who think they can comprehend the monotheistic God

[@valerieprice1745]

It would never occur to him that Lyell, Darwin, and other Scottish Masons were just lying to him about how old the dragons were and the earth and evolution too. Why people just adopt those nutty ideas without question is beyond me.

[@Hbmd3E]

there is so much "evidence" I think God made it like that

[@carlosreira413]

Notice that Tom's stumbling block to Faith is a sort of fear of making Jesus too small!

[@thespiritofhegel3487]

François-Jean Lefebvre de la Barre (12 September 1745 - 1 July 1766), a young French nobleman, tortured and beheaded before his body was burnt on a pyre along with Voltaire's 'Philosophical Dictionary' nailed to his torso, said to have been executed for not saluting a Roman Catholic religious procession. No wonder France is 'militantly' atheist... they owe that to the Catholic church all right.

[@xaviertoppo8968]

Yeah secularism comes from Christianity.... But when you read the Book India that is Bharat of J Sai Deepak... You will find it's a portrayal that the secularism is only among the christianity and their denomination... Not for the perspective of other religion... And now the Indian politics definition of Secularism is confused not even by the France.... So what do you think about it? The definition of secularism for Europe was only for making peace or we can say it is an agreement among the Christian denominations for making peace in Europe.... Or we can say it was an initiative of religious liberalization by Catholic Church... Which evolve and become progressive by the time in the process of decades....

[@ishfaqulhaqueduke3238]

The question is: does it make Christianity true? If science and secularism came from Christianity and based on the scientific method Christianity cannot be established then I see no problem in not accepting Christianity. Also, we can give gratitude to the Roman and Greek culture and also the Jewish religion as Christianity came out of it. Oh by the way please do not forget Newton's father. As Newton and his physics also came because there was Newton's father.

[@bellezavudd]

Christianity didn't develope out of thin air as so many believers assume. By " thin air" I mean the idea that it popped miraculously out of Gods mind and that humans weren't the cultivators of human wisdom and spiritual ideas . Christianity like everything in culture is built upon the ideas that predate it. Greek philosophy and wisdom writings were abundant in the area at the time. The new testament being written in Greek, not Aramaic or Hebrew. And of course built upon the narrative structures of the Jewish bible. Which would in turn be influenced by Mesopotamian and Babylonian culture. Both highly knowelable of astronomy regardless of how biblical propaganda paints them. The intellectuals of all ages stand on the shoulders of those who came before. The writers of the 66books are no different. The biggest mistake of Toms would be assuming where the start of science actually is. Worldwide there were both large and small gains in intellectual and practical knowledge. History shows that an effecient mind grabs the useful from where ever it presents itself. Read a bio on any of the most talented people in history and you see this on display.

[@bellezavudd]

And as far as liberaliam and secularism Christianity is in some ways theologically opposed to them. It was much effort and bloodshed to loosen its extremism. Hopefully the uptight Christians such as the fundies can catch up.

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

this is ridiculous, nobody's claiming Christianity came out of the blue either but it's obviously idiosyncratic.

[@bellezavudd]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj Its kind of irrelevant and seems obvipus but if you want to focus on it Ill give it a go. "Out of the blue" is a metaphor similar to what I wrote. The bible narrative claims God was inspiring men writers. So where is God's inspiration? Is it a material thing? Or could this inspiration an immaterial thing that could appear 'out of thin air.' ? How would you like this particular God thing to be described? Im just conveying the way many Christians have expressed this. I guess Out of the blue heavens gives a better image. Does that work? Ok now thats clear you have a comment about the central proposition .

[@Hbmd3E]

Dead sea scrolls they found book of giants that says these enteties made hyprids also with animals creating monsters. 5[ . . . ] for miscegenation [ . . . ] [ . . . ] they defiled [ . . . ] 2[ . . . they begot] giants and monsters [ . . . ] 3[ . . . ] they begot, and, behold, all [the earth was corrupted . . . ] 4[ . . . ] with its blood and by the hand of [ . . . ] 5[giant's] which did not suffice for them and [ . . . ] 6[ . . . ] and they were seeking to devour many [ . . . ] 7[ . . . ] 8[ . . . ] the monsters attacked it. The Dead Sea Scrolls: Book of Giants

[@boohoogamer1713]

Would absolutely love to see Ricky Gervais give you some pointers

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

To his bum hole.

[@elgatofelix8917]

Gervais is merely an overrated comedian, nothing more.

[@boohoogamer1713]

@@elgatofelix8917 I dont find him funny I just find his points spot on. Some people havent got common sense, and he just says it as it is

[@jesusofafrica7284]

"You no longer identify as a Christian"! What Cameron, how could you have missed this point, he now identifies as Christian because of his study. Amazing testimony.

[@KristianPietroOfficial]

What kind of liberalism?

[@Qwerty-jy9mj]

Only americans and canadians use the word incorrectly

[@KristianPietroOfficial]

@@Qwerty-jy9mj is it talking politically?

[@corinaijac4381]

sapiens indeed...

[@christdiedforoursins1467]

Lost me on dinosaurs, I know people in the UK and America believe they existed but no one actually ever saw one ever .the man is showing you a rock from America it's looks like a rock because it is a rock.I don't mean to be offensive but I suppose truth is offensive

[@jameswilson8946]

*from Protestantism

[@MrGustavier]

14:50 *"essentially, the study of science, begins in the medieval universities, and they are very novel institutes that are founded in the 12th century, and they are committed to the idea that god's law can be found"* What about the empiricist school of Pyrrho ?

[@ApozVideoz]

Empiricism has almost nothing to do with the Scientific Method. One focuses on sensual/experiential evidence and the other relies on the uniformity of the laws of the universe.

[@TheJimtanker]

Science exists despite religion, not because of it.