why simply copying the hunger games doesn't work

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today we discuss a popular and beloved trope: the death tournament or battle royale. popularized by the hunger games, started by 'battle royale', now a trope that is common in books and tv. let's analyse its history, why we love it so much and why i personally think it so often misses the mark
sources:
• jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/ques...
• www.cagesideseats.com/2013/3/...
• www.cagesideseats.com/2013/3/...
• www.badancient.com/claims/gla...
00:00 intro
1:55 history of the battle royale trope
17:42 why is the trope so popular?
20:35 how battle royale stories fail
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Hi! My name is Leonie and I am a 25 year old girl from the Netherlands who loves talking about books! From YA to non-fiction to classics, I read it all (although fantasy will always be my fave).
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[@FrostCHNOS]

If you really stretch, Charlie and the Chocolate factory is a death tournament

[@josefehling1134]

Not really a stretch because am elimination tournament but there is a great video that goes into willy Wonka and how fucked up the character and setting is 😂

[@diereading]

I’ve always felt like someone should remake that story except the kids don’t come out alive. Or at least we don’t see them come out alive. Especially with Burton’s take on the tale, it truly is a horror story

[@FrostCHNOS]

@diereading I know in the stage musical you see the one girl get ripped apart by squirrels on stage

[@joranbooth5529]

@@diereading that would be amazing

[@OcarinaSapphr-]

As the Honest Trailer says, "Saw-- for kids!"

[@pendragon2012]

I was disappointed you didn't say, "If you hear screaming in the background, that's the death tournament I'm running this weekend".

[@whatsgiureading]

exactly like it ruined the vibe 😂

[@oliviah4731]

I was hoping she would say, "If you hear screaming in the background... no, you don't."

[@Lonovavir]

They volunteered for it, honest, I swear.

[@pyjamamc2826]

Hunger games copies tend to forgive their own "battle royales". It's either a magical coming of age ritual, a test to prove oneself, a necessary game to weed out the weak, etc. The hunger games were explicity an evil tool created by evil people who wanted to control the districts. Every single tribute was a victim of the games whether they were a victor or not. In these copies, the evil people are the enemies in the arena and the battle royale is just a fact of life that everyone accepts.

[@kkat42069]

The hunger games really isn’t a rip off of Battle Royal basically because Battle Royal is a critique of Japanese society and Hunger Games is a critique of American society. The only similarity is the death tournaments

[@kkat42069]

I can’t believe it’s marketed as “The Real Hunger Games” cause like …. They’re literally different things

[@Undidiridium_]

Exactly. Not to mention BR is one book. THG has 3 and deep dives way more into the world around it as well as the toppling. The games were plot point but not the whole plot

[@waltlock8805]

Battle Royal is all about the social commentary. In the Hunger Games, the commentary is there, but only in the background.

[@dilaisy_loone2846]

@@waltlock8805Noo?? The commentary is the hole point of the books, the battle is just collateral

[@leemarjoram1087]

And the loin king isn't a rip off of Kimba the white loin

[@taylorparis7228]

I will literally never let The Hunger Games books OR movies die. The series itself is so brilliantly, beautifully crafted. Catching Fire will never be topped.

[@neondouble_]

Say whatever you want, but... I don't get what's so good about it.

[@Angelo-uw9eo]

​@@neondouble_*gasp* if you dont like it i dont see how i can change your mind about it in one comment. I love it but you can enjoy other things :)

[@PCDelorian]

@@neondouble_ Some opinions are wrong, this is one example. jk to each his own but I love the fact that trauma in the series feels real and its really good at making you feel for the characters.

[@PenguinsAreColdish]

very great analysis man@@neondouble_

[@pattyfaubert1938]

Agreed! Just started rewatching all the movies and possibly re-reading the books❤ Catching Fire is one of the best adapted book -> movie adaptation second to the new Dune film.

[@TheGalacticGrizzly]

I think what makes the Hunger Games so good, is that the cost of life has impact on the characters and story. I've only seen the movies, but the start of the tournament was gnarly. I wasn't entertained, it was actually pretty hard to watch. The fact that the rich people are entertained by seeing dead children, really says something about the world. And it also makes the story more realistic. In a lot of action genres, people dying is nbd (unless it's like a best friend, mentor or lover). It gives people the appearance of desensitisation to death. But what if you're actually standing there, seeing it, being in danger yourself? I think the Hunger Games really succeeded in communicating that fear and desperation.

[@kbird6208]

I read the books but the movies were too stressful for me.

[@Redthreadwitch]

They did a good job with the movies, but the books are even better in this respect! Because you are in Katniss’ head, you really feel the emotional and psychological toll it takes on her.

[@angel127_]

@@kbird6208 the first book was so gruesome, especially Cato’s death . it was changed in the movie but he was wearing armour which prevented him from dying straight away at the hands of the mutts . katniss and peeta literally lie on top of the cornucopia while cato is slowly being mauled underneath them for hours …… and i read the books at twelve 😭😭😭

[@FifthAveAtFive]

I love when books show the arc of becoming desensitized to death is non-linear. That first ever death you hear about/witness impacts you, but that becomes common place then it’s the deaths you have a hand in that cause the emotional distress but you have to accept that it’s a reality of your world and you have to cope in some way. Then it’s seeing people that you thought were invincible being killed and realizing no day is guaranteed even when you are the most skilled and lethal person. I think Rebecca Yarros’s Empyrean series does this well, it makes even the characters used to murder question the ethics of their war college and culture.

[@swiftnstylinson]

You should definitely do one on Villain Redemption Arc and Hero Corruption Arc. Its amazing and there is so much to explore

[@monangemyangel9952]

Yes, its a very incredible ideia. :)

[@ankita_rc]

ooohhhh both sound so interesting

[@vickysbookland]

@@drawingwithkay the young elites by marie lu! amazing trilogy, all short books and super fast to read and it has that arc

[@blearyeyedchangeling]

YES id love that

[@ravioli_124]

i luv ur pfp

[@johannastromberg1224]

In multiple interviews I have seen with Suzanne Collins, she states that the inspiration for the hunger games concept actually came from a story from Greek mythology.

[@ryan3136]

It came from several things. The Greek myth of Theseus, the Iraq war, reality television, and her own experiences as a child after her father was drafted into the Vietnam war.

[@asterope9244]

Actually both Cato and Clove (Tributes from District 2) volunteer in Hunger Games for fame and honor.

[@amelieclemens3201]

Yeah I also thought of that! They also do it because for them, the stakes aren't as high as other people's, because they are actually trained for the games and have an advantage, therefore not having such a high threshold to join the games!

[@TheBookLeo]

oh right i forgot about that! but even that detail makes sense for the world!

[@viivv6230]

most career tributes do volunteer (district 1, 2, 4 in the books). katniss said that since they usually do volunteer, the whole volunteer process can get complicated in those districts

[@Mia_M]

@@amelieclemens3201 not just that, but people from their districts tend to have more sponsors in the capitol too because they have that training and receive the best scores.

[@aurora5481]

Which in of itself is still commentary on the power dynamics: the volunteer tributes and the districts that raise their children idolising the games where 96% of the contenders die represent military propaganda and the Capitol's message of them as trials of skill and cunning so successfully that they believe getting their children killed or exploited for the benefit of their oppressors for increments of wealth over the other districts is an _honour._ Again, leaning on the clear Roman inspirations scattered throughout the book, it's Divide and Conquer: show favouritism for one subject and beat down another, and they'll be too busy hating each other to unify against you.

[@xyulo]

I think you overlooked one very big reason why Battle Royals are so popular: people love to imagine how well would they do in these tournaments. This is exactly why Squid games and Battle Royal exist in the public consciousness less like "stories about certain characters", and more like a "tournament with certain rules". People love to recreate SG challenges during Halloween bcs they want to know how would they do it (the fact that this one doesn't force you to outright murder people but just asks you to win games makes it easier to imagine yourself in their place). Meanwhile other settings coerce the reader into Raskolnikov's dilemma of "am i cut out for the murder? can i do it?". That brings me to another point about what makes this trope shine: you really have to spend a lot of time with your characters, their feelings, their motivations, and with the world itself before you move onto the game itself. Because if characterization of your MCs isn't strong enough, their personal tragedy will be overshadowed by the games. Yeah, we do talk about Hunger Games as a tournament with its rules, we love playing in Hunger Games simulator and make our blorbos fight to death. But we remember as much of both Katniss and Panem, because we spend a lot of time with both of them before and after the games. Because good death tournament the book has to make sure that personal tragedies and the world-building isn't overshadowed by the game.

[@Isabelle-mp8rk]

Oh definitely, i still believe a massive reason battle royale games got so big was the popularity of the minecraft hunger games servers.

[@lamcb.9476]

I’m sorry I shouldn’t laugh because I’m Dutch too, but when you said Danganronpa with that flat Dutch accent I nearly spit out my water

[@saram5659]

Only Dutch people ever criticize others' Dutch accents. If she would have said it with an American accent it would probably be a worse pronunciation of the name in its original language.

[@TheGalacticGrizzly]

​@@saram5659I personally smirked at that because I would say it the exact same way. It's funny how easily an English pronunciation goes out the window when it comes to foreign words, even though your whole essay is in English.

[@Hannah_96]

same hahahah love it

[@jesuisege]

ohhh i was wondering what accent she had. also its cute that she reverts to her native accent for words in other languages cuz when i speak english i even pronounce words in my native tongue with an english accent for some reason?? lmfaooo

[@deadfor7yrs246]

i remember realising that the greek myth of the minotaur was sort of a battle royale and then assuming that the hunger games was based on that... i actually don't think anyone survived those until Theseus had Ariadne's string but basically a bunch of teens (seven youths and seven maidens) were sent into the labyrinth to appease the appetite of the minotaur once every nine years. i only have a rough idea of the myth lol but i just thought it was a similar sort of story. King Minos's son was killed by Athenians so 'to avenge his death' he commanded that they give 14 of their youths as sacrifices to the minotaur.

[@littledrummergirl_19]

There was a Doctor Who episode about this and reading your comment made me realize it’s also about that Greek myth - it’s the episode where the 11th doctor gets lost with Amy and Rory in that infinite hotel being hunted by a Minotaur and the rooms are their worst fears, and the Minotaur feeds off the fears so you have to resist opening the door to the room that “calls” you

[@jesuisege]

@@littledrummergirl_19 omg thank you for making me realise that. doctor who does often take interesting media tropes (if you think about it myths are ancient media lol) and gives them its own twist and i knew that infinite hotel-fear alien episode felt familiar but i couldn't put my finger on it

[@eiladev1130]

Suzzane Collins has actually said that this Greek myth was one of her inspirations when she was creating the Hunger Games! So you were spot on

[@eiladev1130]

*Suzanne

[@senseghost467]

The Hunger Games and Battle Royale came from the same source, simple, The concept of there being only one "winner" has existed since the ancient Romans,the era of the gladiators. + Suzanne tells us she was inspired by the The Tale of the Minotaur,her father used to tell ancient greek stories to her as a child(he was a soldier too) So all of these experiences impacted on her work And this is very clear in Susanne's work,from the names of people to the concepts The Hunger Games is not just another gratuitous bloodbath, it goes further, it is pure social criticism

[@serpenttailedangel]

It's been a hot minute since I read Hunger Games, but I'm pretty sure that in the first book, the richer districts had kids who trained outright for the Hunger Games and volunteered annually, because beyond abducting children and then telling them to fight, the capitol also gave a bunch of perks to the entire district of the winner to incentivize compliance from the tributes, such that winning districts faced less starvation and scarcity. It was a combination both of tyranny and exploiting desperation. Without the incentive, you can force kids to fight for their lives, but you risk having too many who would choose to sacrifice themselves rather than turn into a killer just to die before the end anyway. With the incentive, you get a lot of kids who find moral justification in what they're doing.

[@LongDeadArtist]

They treated it as an honor, so volunteering is common in higher districts unlike district 12, where everyone is struggling and just wants to provide.

[@jesuisege]

oh yeah ive always thought about how i would simply kill myself as soon as the games started if i was ever put in that position instead of becoming a murderer with the slightest chance of survival. it's the hope of making it and essentially becoming a celebrity, escaping a horrific life that makes them keep going. even president snow talks about the importance of hope for the system to work and how too much of it is dangerous. the 'careers' who train in order to volunteer have all been brainwashed into believing that being a victor is a big honor; which mirrors how war propaganda works in real life

[@amyr3293]

I actually very rarely read a magical competition book that actually pulls the trope off, but the death tournament is invariably worse as a trope. Partly because since the hunger games most authors don’t have the balls to kill most of or all of the participants.

[@meysician7117]

Bestie you can't drop this comment and not give us the title of that book

[@Joeysaladslover]

@@meysician7117huh did you actually read the comment what are you talking about

[@meysician7117]

@@Joeysaladslover OH HAHAHA my tired brain thought you read a book that managed to pull the trope off because the author killed most of the participants

[@pinkcupcake90]

I read Powerless and tbh it couldn’t pull it off for those exact reasons

[@kingdionysus1867]

Drop the receipt! 😭

[@Cyclone-wolf]

21:56 Great video! One small thing though that does change a bit of the dynamic (its been a long time since Ive read this series so the details are fuzzy) but Katniss isnt the only one to volunteer. Shes just the only one to do so from her district. The higher districts get volunteers because the kids train their entire lives just to compete. Its a money/wealth thing.

[@littledrummergirl_19]

Yeah, they’re called careers! They train specifically to volunteer

[@jesuisege]

it's the hope of making it and essentially becoming a celebrity, that makes them do it. even president snow talks about the importance of hope for the system to work and how too much of it is dangerous. the 'careers' who train in order to volunteer have all been brainwashed into believing that being a victor is a big honor; which mirrors how war propaganda works in real life. i've heard the prequel explains more about how that became a strategy but i haven't read/watched it. it's classic divide and conquer tho, capitol shows favoritsm towards the first three or four (and btw, white) districts. they're wealthier so they can afford to train instead of just trying to survive, therefore they are a bigger threat and the other districts can hate them instead of realising who the real enemy is. the careers are also victims of the capitol and that is why when cato realizes how he has ''always been dead anyways'', he just wasn't aware; it is heart breaking cuz you see that he is also just a scared kid.

[@monster-enthusiast]

I'd kill for a video about The Bad Boy. In my opinion, bad boys first started out as Greasers (example: The Fonz from Happy Days). They had a similar feeling to punks in the way that they broke rules and were pretty counter culture. The Bad Boy, was a guy that was poor or from the "bad part of town". He's anti-authoritarian, anti-establishment, and cares more about people than the laws. They wear leather cuz they ride bikes and that's just biker gear. Bad Boys, when done correctly, are supposed to be the rough guy that will risk harm and arrest in order to do the right thing. Bad boys are NOT bigots and definitely not wealthy. If he's toxic, he's not a bad boy. The "bad boy with a heart of gold" isn't "he mistreated me but he loves me" it's "he get's his hands dirty and is rough around the edges but he always stands up for the little guy and does what's right (not what's lawful)." Edit: what people think of nowadays as The Bad Boy is a severely mishandled and bastardized version.

[@sofialima4521]

Omg YES! I would love a video about how/when it changed into whatever the hell wattpad has been brewing

[@frannyc7248]

Yas a 100% this🎉

[@FMFF_]

I'd love to see this done, too! I feel like some authors just wanted a "bad boy" as the ML and figured so long he was hot/confident they only needed to add "be an AH to everyone but (gradually) not to FL" and it'd be OK cause it was OK from the FL POV.

[@theheirslair9581]

in other words, the bad boy changed from a working-class hero to an owning-class accessory, as the affluent copied what made him dangerous, legal transgression, without understanding what makes him appealing. damn rich people, always ruining everything with their shortsightedness

[@wanda7258]

@@theheirslair9581 It wasn't more so rich people who did this. It was the authors themselves. Because being rich is seen as appealing. I don't think a lot of people wanted to have their hero boy crush to be from lower classes, because money allows for cool accessories and fancy dates and gowns. I think also, at the time the troubled rich artist trope (which in itself used to be beautifully done) was becoming popular. So the authors cherry-picked their favourite bits from each trope and mangled it into a mess as they understood neither trope well. It's not rich people's shortsightedness, it's the face value admiration for a thing based simply off of their aesthetics today which has caused trouble in many areas.

[@leegaul2161]

"I made this entire video just as an excuse to rant about this book." Relatable.

[@saww_yer]

i love that the hunger games does a death tournament that shows how hard it is to bring yourself to kill someone, even in a fight to the death. katniss shows mercy to fox face, and thresh shows her mercy when they could easily have killed one another. suzanne collins also explores the mental toll killing someone directly takes on katniss, showing her nightmares, ptsd, and the substance abuse issues other victors experience, creating a very realistic view of what it would actually be like to experience this world for yourself

[@JustClaude13]

One difference between The Hunger Games and gladiatorial games is that the Battle Royale genre is all about killing each other off, while gladiators were too expensive to kill casually. Gladiator matches were to submission. If the host of the match demands battle to the death he'll have to pay for the gladiator, including the cost of training and feeding him. While accidental deaths weren't uncommon, deliberate fights to the death were very rare.

[@sofiarodriguezmarsiglia334]

Actually in the hunger games there's this thing called the career tributes, which are from the wealthier districts (1, 2 and 4), that prepare themselves in academys and that sort of things all their life, and then they do volunteer and it's really common. They do that because of the prestige they bring if they win and the resocurces they have (much more chances to win), and the treat the capitol gives the tributes; but in the beginning tributes where treated like animals and the hunger games where only promoted as punishment so back then no one would actually volunteer

[@melaniethiessen8160]

On the whole power dynamic aspect, I never hear anyone talk about how Katniss in the books is actually Indigenous. Her father was. How most of the residents in district 11 are mostly Black and how that district is heavily policed and guarded, and how district 12 is mostly Indigenous people and it's basically abandoned and forgotten. Also, how Peeta, who lives in the "richer" part of town and is white, does have more privilege than Katniss and they have their own power dynamic between them because of this with the bread. It's not just about money, it's about race. It would have been interesting to see all of that explored in the films.

[@solo-mons]

I don’t think district 12 is primarily indigenous given the common grey eyes there (correct me if I’m wrong), and I’m not sure if Katniss’ dad was indigenous given I don’t remember his character description… but it would make sense if he was given the foraging in the woods thing. Definitely an interesting thing I’ll think about next reread.

[@mariaraquelfs]

I don't remember Katniss being indigenous, she was described as olive skin in the books, which could mean from arabic decent to latin american, also indigenous. Anyway, she was not described as white

[@solarium1]

katniss is indigenous to the Appalachian mountains.

[@sasha9465]

that and also its exemplified by katniss’ mother and prim. she makes comments about how they stand out in the seam because of their blonde hair and blue eyes. district 12 is def racially and socially segregated. ive always thought of book katniss and her dad/sister, gale, haymitch, and the other seam characters as native appalachian

[@theGhostofRoberttheBruce]

@@sasha9465 The 5th-century Greek historian Herodotus describes the Budini of Scythia as red-haired and grey-eyed. Ethnically Russian (data from research of the Russian ethnic group 1957-1959): 43.46% - blue, light blue, gray eyes 50.17% - green, gray-green, brown-green, blue-green 6.37% - brown, yellow-brown, black-brown The Royal Scyths, established themselves as rulers of the southern Russian and Crimean territories. It is there that the richest, oldest, and most-numerous relics of Scythian civilization have been found. Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom, battle strategy, crafts, and weaving, is often referred to as "grey-eyed" or "glaukopis."

[@reneeleyyi1345]

such relevant commentary cause i see many writers use tools of death, murder, sa and various crimes within their universe/ by characters and don't write on the impact of it all. readers can feel it when authors are just tossing around traumatic 'incidents' and bloody 'plot devices' just for the sake of their story and doesn't empathise their characters or even let us have time to process the emotional journey with the characters/ community in their literary universe

[@johnharvey5412]

Collins does this better than most. Her earlier series, the Underland Chronicles, lean into this as well. You can feel the protagonist getting more and more troubled and cynical as he sees (and causes) more death and chaos, and is a complete wreck by the end.

[@SEB1991SEB]

Katniss isn't the only person who volunteers for the Hunger Games. It's mentioned that certain districts (the more well-off districts) hold their Hunger Games champions in very high esteem, they're like heroes, and they also have a culture around the Hunger Games, where children will be trained in combat from an early age specifically for the Hunger Games (therefore these districts will usually win the Hunger Games each year too, because they have this huge advantage). So people from those districts will volunteer for the honour and glory (I'm not sure if anyone else volunteers for it in Katniss' year though).

[@meadowmia]

I think it was mention in the books that training for hunger games is banned in the districts but District 1,2, and 4 was able to find loophole to this rule, while the other districts didn’t. Also when someone win the the hunger games, it also benefits the winning district too. They get year worth of parcels of food from the Capitol, so district 1,2, and 4 receive more food for their citizens because their victors.

[@SEB1991SEB]

@@meadowmia Yeah that's right, it's common knowledge that certain districts do train for it, but the Capitol doesn't stop them. I can't remember the loophole to it, I thought the Capitol just looked the other way for some reason. Oh yeah that's true. So then they'd be hailed as a hero in their district for winning food for everyone. Good point.

[@hanng1242]

I think you have mis-remembered the rationale for the Battle Royale in the eponymous book. The juvenile delinquency thing was created for the movie. In the book, the Battle Royale was initially instituted as a method of military preparedness (I assume to instill into the population the samurai idea that they were already dead - killing off potential conscripts doesn't seem like a very effective way of strengthening an army), then later it morphed into totalitarian social control to remind the population that the government could kill them at any time for any, or no, reason. As for Roman gladiatorial contests, the purpose changed as time went on. They were originally religious rituals as part of Roman ancestor worship. Similar to many civilizations that killed wives, slaves or guards to serve a potentate in the afterlife, the gladiators were essentially human sacrifices to the deceased to accompany him in death as a sort of bodyguard. The combat part of it was designed to make sure that said bodyguard were good warriors (which is why gladiators were trained for combat). Julius Caesar, for example, held a gladiatorial contest involving more than 300 men for his father's funeral - so many that the Senate imposed a ceiling on the number of people who could be involved because they were concerned that Caesar might have been raising an army (remember, M. Licinius Crassus who defeated Spartacus in the Servile wars was part of the First Triumvirate with Caesar). The bread and circuses aspect of these events likely arose during the Punic wars based upon the idea that having captured Carthaginian soldiers getting killed, or killing each other, in the arena was good for morale, since the actual army was having difficulties with Hannibal in the field. By the time of Imperial Rome, the spectacle had become the point of the thing, and an event no longer needed to be justified by a funeral. Arguably, the early Christians revived the religious aspect of dying in the arena, but for a different reason than, and with a different form of "combat" to, the Republican Romans.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

The juvenile delinquency thing is a very stupid idea honestly.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

Also, the mortality rate dropped as the number and professionalism of the combatants increased. Makes sense, you wouldn't want to kill large amounts of expensive, trained "assets" if you can avoid it.

[@joicebelo9167]

It would be great if Leo started a podcast. I wouldn't mind listening to her voice for hours

[@meysician7117]

YES YES YES

[@whatsgiureading]

OMG YES WE ARE BEGGING

[@pauieeepau]

I appreciated the Battle Royale book because we had all these perspectives of the kids that gave them humanizing qualities. (Spoilers)There were some solo boys at first who attacked others out of desperation, the pacifist girls who wanted to protect each other but were sabotaged by one girl's paranoia, the naive bestfriends who thought they could call their class together, the boys who wanted to fight the authority but was also sabotaged by their infighting, the lovers that tried to protect each other, the delinquents who thought they would band together and pick off their classmates, and the main characters who were just lucky enough to meet someone knowledgeable of the game. It wasn't about the world per se, but how these kids approached the games and how children suffered under fascism. The games were an inhumane punishment/warning to society in both the book and manga, and the delinquency issue was the movie-only rationale btw. Hunger Games only focused on Katniss, but we see how she "played the game" in and out of the Hunger Games, from playing to the camera and crowds and appealing via imagery and fashion. She was also a pawn piece to the rebellion, someone to use as a figurehead and "flagbearer", someone they didn't need as a soldier but only gave the impression of one to inspire the masses. The games never really ended for her when she left the arena. She needed to keep playing or was played. I also enjoy battle royale-inspired anime, if only for the action and gore (I enjoyed the Zodiac Wars but it wasn't groundbreaking or anything). I feel like they can also be fun vibes, no thought, head empty, in battle royale books if they were specifically made to be campy. But I haven't seen that yet, and I wish a book like that was real.

[@SOME_GUY_]

It's so refreshing to actually see someone who's read Battle Royale!

[@pauieeepau]

@@SOME_GUY_ i consumed the movie, book, and manga, but it's been a while, so this is just off the top of my head. I even forgot to mention the delinquent girl that was picking off her classmates, and she was cool as heck. Though the manga version gave her a lame fanservicey death. The manga annoyed me in many more ways, but that's another story.

[@SOME_GUY_]

@pauieeepau Nah, I totally feel that last point. The manga is what originally introduced me to the story, but I'm glad I later read the book. The manga made a bunch of unsavory changes, honestly.

[@Alienana]

Battle Royale is so deeply dear and special to mee. One of the best stories ever told about desperation.

[@guidedexplosiveprojectileg9943]

​@@SOME_GUY_Why is the evil guy a pedophile now like what

[@melemon810]

I think an interesting trope to explore would be “being transported to another world”, specifically how the protagonists handle this. I feel like a lot of authors don’t realize the weight of the situation of not knowing where you are or how to get home after being isekai’d. I usually see examples of this in visual media, so I wonder how it differentiates with written media.

[@NowioART]

About that, give Leon Ceur Senki a go. It veers away from the cliche and takes a rather unforgivingly direct reality check about a medieval world (around 8-9th century). Meanwhile 99% of isekais while saying it is a "middleage european setting" describe a happy go lucky rennaisance setting (15th century+).

[@Bloodglas]

it's less about authors not realizing the weight of being in that situation and them deliberately writing a story without that weight. most authors making isekais are not trying to make a serious story, they're just making a power fantasy for teenagers. a completely average dude gets every OP power they could ever want and then gets to go around a cool new world doing whatever happens to interest them at the time.

[@NowioART]

@@Bloodglas I was not denigrating your run off the mill shonen and shojo isekais, just pointing out that seinen and josei genre is understaffed.

[@jonweman6128]

If Suzanne Collins tells the truth we will most likely never know, but the 90:s and early 00:s was a high point for more or less deranged game shows/realities, often with an elimination structure, the idea wasn't that far-fetched. The "Deadly game shows" trope was used already in the early 80:s by Stephen King/Richard Bachman with The Long March and The Running Man, quite prophetic at that time, though they were not Battle Royales.

[@the_bookish_gal]

You have to read The Long Walk by Stephen King. It's so chilling and underrated and perfectly fits the theme

[@bobkeane7966]

The Long Walk is included in an anthology with the Running Man which would also fill the category.

[@hoodieripper]

I read it for the first time when I was about 12 and the last line has haunted me ever since.

[@bobkeane7966]

Those four early stories are really good,it makes you wonder because King had to become famous to get them published.@@hoodieripper

[@palcicaa]

​@@hoodieripperright? That was my first book of 2023 and holy moly did it kick the year off. I still cant believe he came up with that as a teenager

[@justjaq2319]

Oh my god, I've still think about that book daily and I've read it a year ago!!

[@obscur_artiste]

As others have noted, some writers don’t human very well, and that reflects in their writing.

[@2408LVE]

I clicked so fast that actually scared me how much I love this channel ❤

[@aardappel536]

Not really a trope but I would really like a deep dive into the obsession books (and society) have with romance. Not in a romance books are bad way, but on how books always focus on romantic relationships, place them above platonic relationships and it’s kinda impossible to find a fantasy or YA book without a romance (sub) plot.

[@kbird6208]

Good point! I feel like when I was YA age, there were more books about social situations but not necessarily romance. Now as an occasional YA-reading adult, the teenage romances are not interesting but there are few books without them as the main point of the book.

[@streetcat2006]

I read battle royale two months ago and I was WOWED by the similarities to the hunger games, just with amped up gore and more internal character struggles. I highly recommend it to anyone who likes the genre. The intro to the story is the excerpt about the boxing battle royale, and it really sets the stage for the rest of the story as a spectacle for those running it. It’s a genius work, the only downside is the 700 page length… but it’s so worth it!

[@victoriaschapter]

I think marriage of convenience could be an interesting trope to go into!

[@tasmiatahia_write_dream_change]

I feel that's a subgenre of fake dating but would love to see a deep dive on this for sure.

[@ellealine4159]

If you try isekai manhwa - all the reincarnation, time regression etc. They do that a loooot

[@TwirlGirl2197]

The book Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison begins with the main character being conned into a battle royale for a scholarship. Highly highly recommend this book though. Its really thought provoking and I think is the best book I had to read for high school English.

[@OohAPrettyRock]

Adding to my book list, sounds interesting!

[@AnneleenRoesems]

This was what I thought about first when she mentioned battle royals in the US! I haven’t read the full book, but had to read an excerpt for my English class at uni and I should get to reading it in full!

[@neppets4500]

Fun Fact: Pro Wrestling is higly reguarded in Japan. Like in america WWE its spectcle and entertainment. In Japan its art and performance. Its crazy how differnet it is. But as a pro wrestling fan, writer, and avid reader never once did I see that connection... BR Boooks, games and film as accosiated with pro wrestling it makes so much sense since the Author of Battle Royale was from Japan. Mind blown lol not gonna lie!

[@toyo.saketoba]

I would like a deep dive of beautiful covers with mediocre story, or worst the only good thing is the cover😅 I’ve been a victim so many times.

[@tagtra290]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who's been burned by those covers 😂

[@KYX1994]

Uuuh and the opposite as well: horrible cover amazing content 👏

[@toyo.saketoba]

@@KYX1994 oh I definitely need some of that!

[@toyo.saketoba]

@@tagtra290 there are too many books in my possession that i physically cant even look at cuz i just remember how bad the content was😬

[@aurora5481]

@@tagtra290 The ones we('ve been) burn(t by).

[@nozomisouffle]

22:26 Besides Katniss there's the Career Tributes from districts 1 and 2 (I guess, not sure about the numbers), but your point stands since there's 12 districts on the competition

[@idk-dz]

Nothing does tournaments like shounen mangas/animes. Obviously they're not 'death' tournaments but almost every shounen has a "Tournament Arc" and it became a classic trope in the medium and they're always SO MUCH FUN.

[@pauieeepau]

Naruto chuunin exam in the Forest of Death and Hunter X Hunter exams substituted death with scrolls or badge numbers, but they didn't exactly prevent/disallow killing. So they kind of still are death games lol. I love these arcs.

[@Snowy73835]

Okay, but not nearly enough people in the comments have mentioned Red Rising - that series is a masterpiece! Only the first book is of the battle royale variety, and as the story progresses, it moves in a completely different direction, but I've read very few series that have just become so much better with each next book. Cannot recommend it enough - easily the best series I've read this year, and I'm not even into scifi ❤

[@Kelps_K]

I love listening to people who go on detailed and passionate rants about subjects that they love. I'm not a reader or into books but I love stories and this channel has me in a choke hold 😅❤

[@jessica.isabell.m]

I studied theater science and I had a seminar that was called “Serious Games” where we would talk exactly about that kind of stuff and I absolutely loved it! Thank you for transporting me back to that 😊

[@onfaerystories]

This was a fascinating video! I had added Battle Royale to my TBR after watching your video on the timeline of YA dystopian novels (I'm currently in the middle of City of Ember and really enjoying it) and I'm glad I've learned about the original Battle Royale references before diving into it. I agree with everything you said, that trope shouldn't be incorporated lightly into stories. I'm often disappointed in authors when I notice missed opportunities to discuss some important topics that we can all benefit from thinking deeper about.

[@Andrea-oj6fz]

I love these lecture/essay style videos! Thanks for all the work you put into them

[@bambuu_]

i've been reading this trope a lot lately, what a coincidence! and perfect timing after work! 🥰🥰

[@katierasburn9571]

any good ones leoni didn't mention?

[@maritareads5229]

@@katierasburn9571 A recent one is Chain Gang All-Stars by Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah

[@amt0310]

Thank you for the history class on this trope. Super interesting! Laughed when you said you were 15 and interested in the Hunger Games. I was 11. I should be worried hahhaha

[@karlhovemo11]

thank you for going over the history of the battle royal. i had no idea about its origins in the uk or the us, so it was very insightful to learn more about it

[@darnellabbott335]

Very nuanced and respectful take on the origins of battle royales, thank you so much for that! I'm a big fan of morbid stories that tend towards bad or bittersweet endings, like death tournaments, so hearing more on where the whole concept could come from and more of it history-wide is very intriguing :) Your video delivery and fun humor is really great and engaging, and your knowledge on these different literary tropes is very insightful! I look forward to more cool stuff from you, and I hope you have a great day :D

[@paulafont4862]

Honestly if you had a podcast I would listen to it all the time. I already watch your videos multiple times just to hear you talk in the background while I'm studying

[@jamesduggan7200]

I've been enjoying your 'rambles' fora few years now. Thanks, and please continue :)

[@thedamsnackbar2506]

I really really want to watch this video but I'm saving it for a rainy day. Adore you and your content Leonie, you always manage to make me feel giddy and relaxed at the same time with all of your videos 💙

[@rashichoudhary2006]

I'd love a Found Family trope dive.

[@whatsgiureading]

I SECOND THIS

[@mariatejel4160]

This video is incredible, I love your deep tropes discussion. I need a redemption and corruption arc videos! 💜💜💜💜

[@phoenixontherise4221]

I would love to see a deep dive on the secret identities/alter egos trope. I fall into it every. single. time. (Bonus points if the MC and love interest are enemies and/or lovers with the opposite alter ego.)

[@gracesull78756]

wait any recs with this ? i feel like i can't recall almost anything like this beyond like legend lol, but love the drama with these set ups

[@phoenixontherise4221]

Hmm, it’s been a while, but Renegades by Marissa Meyer is the first one that comes to mind, and there’s a popular 3D animated show/movie called Miraculous Ladybug which has its whole plot based off of the trope (if you know, you know lol)

[@Arawn2020]

Leonie talking about those hungry tournaments,.while people on the fairground next door are eating white bread and herring 🐟

[@ceilinh6004]

Good timing on this video. I recently listened to a podcast about Battle Royale, so it's been on my mind. You make a lot of good points.

[@elitettelbach4247]

Really appreciated the extra context on Battle Royales. Great video!

[@faye9839]

I loved this video I’m a huge Hunger Games fan! Thank you for all your hard work researching this topic ❤

[@parkerr8874]

There is a Wattpad book I can't remember the title of, that I wanted to finish reading where everyone is already dead and they compete in a battle royal to return back to earth alive.

[@padalapallavi2011]

That's such an interesting concept. Please let me know if you find the book!!

[@doraokeke3228]

I love how educational and entertaining her videos are ✨✨🧚‍♀️💖💗

[@unavezms8167]

As a person living in literal dictatorship and a colony the hunger games is relatable. I still don't whether I support Gale who believes all Capitolians (children included) deserve to die or Peeta who believes in innocent until proven otherwise. Add to that President Snow and Katniss being enemies. I still don't know why did he ask her to stop the rebellion knowing she won't be able to do it... And a guy who was Gamemaker became new president so no surprise there.

[@nahicorua]

Plutarch didn't become president tho? It was another rebel whose name I don't remember but she was voted fairly

[@meadowmia]

Plutarch didn’t become president, it was Commander Paylor, one of rebel leader (she’s from district 8, the one that President Snow bombed the hospital)

[@miguelpicoito4607]

@nahicorua you're right, its commander paylor, idk what this guy ia on about

[@cathygrandstaff1957]

The point of the class being put in the death game in Battle Royal was that it was a way for the government to show the adults that it could take their kids and more or less sentence them to death and the parents were absolutely powerless to stop this. But if the parents or someone related to someone in class got on the wrong side of the government that could influence the choice of which class went to the Battle Royal that year. Best keep your head down if you don’t want your kids to suffer.

[@Sarkanybaby]

TBH I don't remember that part of the book, I remember it like a "look how easly friends can turn on each other, do you trust your own neighbour?" type of subtle rhetoric by the government.

[@actuallylauraslibrary]

Excellent video - I especially appreciated your deep dive into hidden racist history of the Battle Royale trope. It's for that reason that I can't recommend Chain Gang All-Stars enough. It tackles current issues in America's carceral system using a death tournament as the backdrop - a great novel and highly effective

[@rochellavanderwal9320]

Just found your channel and I've been obsessed by your vibe. Definitely here for the way you dissect your thoughts and word them. I could listen to you talk about random things for hours. Also your accent is so interesting to me, I figured that you weren't natively english, but would never have guessed Dutch, rather something Scandinavian. It's very nice and pretty.

[@bookybook]

such a good video! Would love to watch more videos in the styles with deep dives in other Genres

[@tendashou]

i love watching your videos so much you've motivated me to get back into reading more as well as writing

[@starmoalitiny]

Hey!! LOVE your content, can you make a playlist on your channel with all your deep dive/retrospective videos?

[@tate5543]

Please read Red Rising if you haven’t yet! The first book is a great example of this trope

[@nitzeart]

I love these deep dive videos you do ❤

[@arlequinelunaire418]

The first ever story (not counting short stories) I ever finished writing was a Death Tournament. Part of the reason I finished it was because it being a Death Tournament gave it a clear plot structure and end goal, along with of course enough tension. Unlike most Death Tournaments though, the participants were mainly rich and popular. There was a way to get disqualified from the tournament without dying by losing all your reputation and influence, but most just settled for killing since it was quicker and simpler

[@loradunn6209]

I am really enjoying these videos

[@sliceoflife4283]

I’m planning to watch as many as i can of your videos because my english needs improvement and you have a pretty interesting vocabularies + topics ❤

[@darkarcmiley3388]

I saw the the serpent and the wings of night cover as you were talking about books that failed this trope and was nervous when I started watching haha

[@devonelton5682]

My favorite death tournament trope book is the All of Us Villians series - it’s so good but not often talked about!!

[@TheMellbell13]

I just read this series! it's so much fun! I will say for anyone interested in reading it, the plot is less about the death tournament and more about the characters' relationships to each other and their town, so I don't know if I'd actually call it a battle royal trope. I highly recommend it though!

[@valeriiamakhaeva4610]

I was checking comments just to see if anyone had recommended these books 💔

[@madisonemily4083]

Really interesting! I was a huge hunger games fan as a teen and I learned a lot from this video!

[@ferlizano]

Been binging this videos as well as her vlog channel and I’m so obsessed with the fall vibes ♥️

[@Carlie_Rae]

You have quickly become my favorite KZbinr 💛

[@rewbaccan.1005]

Your bookish essay videos are the absolute best. ❤

[@evanjones9602]

Immortal Longings makes no sense, why isn't the battle royale in a specialized arena? The way the tournament works you can get more deaths than the number of tributes that go into the tournament!

[@baidykle1]

Found your channel today via the video about The Ballads of Songbirds and Snakes. And your videos are so interesting! Also got me thinking/dreaming about starting my own bookish yt channel, but I am probably too old 😂

[@jecco4057]

the lack of clear distinction between a "death tournament" and a "battle royale" and a "death game" (as mentionned in the quoted forum post) is very confusing and this video wouldve gained a lot of clarity from properly defining all these. especially when exemples are used that only make it muddier (since when is danganronpa a battle royale? or even a death tournament?? death GAME yes. the others, no) its also too bad running man was not mentionned at all- or the prize of peril for that matter. these are where hunger games gets it from (as well as battle royale, which IS mentionned but really shouldve been required READING to make this vid. teen deliquancy never factors into why the BR takes place) the comparison with sports fiction is very true though i tihnk it's missing the more straight-forward comparison with WAR. battle royale taking place in a totalitarian dictatorship after japan ("the republic of greater east asia") won its imperialist conquests is not a coincidence. a lot of death tournaments are also drawing from, and criticizing, the military death cult. i think missing this is also missing the author's perspective on why the death game is so popular in fiction. its an uniquely powerful allegorical tool- in the case of battle royale its putting these kids in a fight to the death because its what it EMOTIONALLY, FEELS LIKE, to go through school and exams in the japanese education system. exagerating the situation makes it easier to get to the emotional impact of things and what has more emotional impact than literal life or death? this is core to why the genre is so popular. school is a death game. work is a death game. reality TV is a death game, and so on. this allows you to show the fucked up nature of systems that have been normalized to your reader so they can question them again. what was said about where immortal longings failed (i personally havent read the book) reminded me a lot of death race 2000 lol but in a good way death race 2000 is a great movie about the american cult of violence and blood. its important that civilians are casualties to the titular death race, and its important that it happens in the open where its so normal for people to die from this race. people have to carry on with their jobs and put themselves in mortal danger its just their normal. and one of its characters is only participating so they can kill the president, again immortal longings reminded me a lot of this movie

[@margpcastbujo]

This was so interesting!! love the video

[@whatsgiureading]

these deep dive videos are phenomenal! please never stop leonie, you’re my favorite channel on here for sure!! 🫶🏻

[@celly589]

Love your breakdown videos!! ❤

[@sandilemlambo5701]

I love how you handle this topic

[@danger-prone-sister]

For all the Hunger Games girlies, if you also happen to like Harry Potter marauders era and fan fiction, the magnum opus or one of them is Crimson Rivers, which is a complete retelling of the Hunger Games with the characters from the Marauders era, aka Sirius and Regulus Black, James Potter, etc. It is amazing and as a huge Hunger Games fan, has become my canon. Leonie, you should do a video on it!

[@MitsumiKory]

Hey what an interesting video!! Please keep making more of these ❤

[@tereziamarkova2822]

8:18 - Actually, there were many kinds of gladiator fights, not all of them one on one (and not all of them to the death)! For example, staged naval battles were infamous for being a rare and exceptionally deadly spectacle. Also, fights between trained gladiators were superficially similar to, but not the same as glorified executions, where you basically did the same things you would to trainer, armed fighter to an unfortunate who cannot defend themselves, because, well, they were sentenced to death already. Might as well provide people with some entertainment on your way out, aye?

[@kelseybenham4005]

3% is a great show that does this concept very well

[@maritareads5229]

I was literally reading the ballad of songbirds and snakes when this video popped up 😳 I wonder if you can do deep dive on the re-incarnation trope! I see it a lot in East Asian media (books and tv) but you'd be hard pressed to find it in the west

[@takshatangudu8736]

Very trueee I love the trope as well

[@romaeraegan]

honestly death games are one of my favourite genres in media - i find it really interesting the different ways they're portrayed and the tactics displayed (if anyone has reccs please share - ive watched quite a bit of death games in anime but they usually disappoint so im looking to read the genre more)

[@emmabrenner1669]

I would love a video about the psychological outgroup-ingroup culty trope, like in Bunny, and the Secret History!!

[@quenya782]

I love the ad placement 😂 at around 8:38, after „A character said“ came the ad with the slogan „I never had such a glow before“. I was just listening and then like whaaaaaat?😂

[@cledosliop4175]

Thank you for sharing love this video❤.

[@PeoniaTheCat]

Amazing video!

[@DenHammons]

Hi, love you! #1 Biggest fan. ;)

[@LightningEnvy]

So what you touched on about Suzanne Collins copying the Battle Royale. Besides the fact that the plots are similar and it wnds with 2 "winners" the part that stood out to me when i read both back to back, was the 2 fires and a bird call. In Battle Royale the have 2 fires set up that they then had a bird whistle they would blow to lead the guy who was saving his girlfriend back to them. Spoilers, he gets killed by his girlfriend explains the plan to her, but she is then killed by the final villian. In Hunger Games its used by Rue and Katniss to steal the food, they use the fires to distract from the stealing and meet up using the bird call. Then Rue dies. That is the most similar between both books

[@v_loves_books]

i love these deep dive videos !!

[@clarkecalderon3331]

I would love to see a deep dive video into the “Lovers to Enemies” trope! I feel like you don’t always see that one, and I’m constantly looking for books with that kind of story.