Why so many seminary teachers are leaving the church

[@donnellallan]

Just weighing in here as another former Seminary teacher who has left the church. I never was comfortable with church history from the time I converted to the church at age nineteen. I luckily avoided teaching the Doctrine and Covenants twice in two stints as an early morning seminary teacher. Eventually, though, Rough Stone Rolling took me down. I resigned my membership in 2012. Thanks for the video. 😊

[@Jsppydays]

Absolutely. Once you start learning the history taking the deep dive it's really hard to hang on, especially when you're in education or in the historical department for the church. Blind faith. Great video.

[@pneuma_23-rb4dx]

The thing is its not just this piece of information that doesn't line up with what was taught. There are so many other things. People say that they were taught about this(when many weren't btw), but throw in the Egyptian papryi, the kinderhook plates, Adam Clarkes commentary on the bible(Joseph Smith Translation). The list goes on and on. Oh, but take it on faith! its BS.

[@anitah2404]

I grew up in the mission field and only found out about the hat and seer stone in 2022.

[@Yanquetino]

Of course. I was already skeptical of the cult, , but they called me to teach an Institute Class, which reinforced my conviction that it was all a fraud. I could no longer continue to pretend otherwise, had my name removed, and consequently… lost practically all family and friends. That was over 3 decades ago, but I am happier than ever to now be an unabashed atheist.

[@othersheep5491]

You are correct, and the snotty arrogance of those who say otherwise is astounding. As missionaries we taught of a urim and thumim and showed flip charts, replete with, oh look, no hat! So to pretend information was not withheld by those who knew and chose intentionally not to divulge is ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as claiming the accompanying pictures weren’t misleading. A few may have been so privileged to have been presented with truth. Booyah! Hooray for you, it wasn’t in the approved reading material. But for the bulk of us and those we taught, your enlightenment did little. I would LOVE to have seen missionaries teach rock in a hat theology in the 70s and 80s and just watch the 💩 hit the fan. But it’s fun to have waited and watch it splatter now too. When prophets lie about little things, it’s hard to believe the big things, or anything. The truth will set you free. Hashtag: leg pulled, hoodwinked, bullied, then blessed.

[@inChristalone1960]

I left in 1980. I have been studying ever since. The rabbit hole is very very deep, and they continue to add to the lies. It is exhausting.

[@user-jd9zm4jf3t]

God bless your ministry and your common sense

[@sarahpinho1114]

I know a lot of people who are leaving the church. I imagine as the church continues to shift it's doctrine to make it more palatable, the organization will settle into a more mainstream church, though always on the conservative side in relation to society.

[@user-xp3dn5po5i]

They did teach the seer stones back in the early 90s, however that information was only provided to light legacy wards/stakes, like in the Palmyra NY area. The church concealed that information when they made the Hill Cumorah pageant more prestigious to publicity and around the same time they were excavating the original Joseph Smith home. The Old Hill Cumorah Visitor's Center before the remodel used to have a replica of the Rod of Aaron as well... it was just a wooden Divining Rod. The display was near a picture of the brown striped seer stone, and just to the right of that was black and white pictures of the church hedging all the trees and digging up the Hill Cumorah in full, back in the late 60s/ early 70s. Nothing was found. If you think that's bad.. the high-top leadership is super superstitious with a lot whackier things than the seer stones. The culture fosters its own Dark Ages swimming in trinkets and trophies with that stuff.

[@Faith.unraveled]

This gives me more to dig into, thank you!

[@carolyearsley]

@@Faith.unraveled This book by an former member is a real eye opener. He is in his sixties, and living in Utah.projectavalon.net/lib/A.%20True%20Ott%20-%20Free%20At%20Last.pdf

[@KevinDeVocht]

They most definitely did. You should look up A Treasured Testament by Russell M. Nelson Ensign July 1993. Just because it wasn't a main teaching point doesn't mean it was hidden.

[@thomasashton1661]

​@@KevinDeVochtdo you mean, just because the correlated CES curriculum and missionary discussions taught investigators differently and showed pictures of it being translated a different way than the historical narrative, doesn't mean that it wasn't mentioned once before? Gaslighting at its finest. Just go look at the missionary flip charts we all used in the 90s before PMW came out.

[@KevinDeVocht]

@@thomasashton1661 history is usually never as black and white as we would like it to be. It's possible that Joseph used both methods or maybe he never actually used the seer stone. We don't actually know. My point is the church didn't try and hide it. When you are teaching someone the basics of the church you're probably not going to go into the nitty gritty details about every single aspect of the history. Just look at elementary school history lessons versus college level ones. It's not that elementary school history was a lie but rather catered to the level of understanding of the learner. This is always the case when learning a new topic. Just because it's not emphasized doesn't mean they're trying to hide it. Again, they published it multiple times including in the Friend. You're just looking for reasons to attack the church so you're taking the worst possible interpretation of the situation instead of looking at it reasonably

[@taxtrustsestates]

I know tons of seminary teachers--none have left the church--do you have actual statistics?

[@KevinDeVocht]

Why do we need anything if God can just reveal everything to each of us? Clearly God works within the limited understanding of man and through their faith. We as humans have lots of preconceived ideas on how things should work and God is willing to work with us where we are. Joseph Smith started translating using the urim and thummim but then as he grew in faith he was able to translate in other methods because he realized that the power of translation didn't come directly from the object but rather from God. The Nephites needed the physical records because most people don't have enough faith to simply receive direct revelation from God without a catalyst.

[@user-jd9zm4jf3t]

Could you be wrong?

[@KevinDeVocht]

@@user-jd9zm4jf3t Sure

[@KevinDeVocht]

@@user-jd9zm4jf3t Sure

[@KevinDeVocht]

@@user-jd9zm4jf3t sure

[@Seaker01]

Dear Faith Unraveled, please consider the following about the Book of Mormon: 1) Is there anything in the book that in contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ? 2) Does the book teach of Jesus Christ? 3) Why would Satan put together a book that teaches about Jesus Christ to mislead you 4) Read 3 Nephi 27:14-15 - why would anyone put that scripture in the book in attempts to mislead you? Faith, people look for technicalities all the time to stop believing in something. Find the real reason for leaving the church and then counter that reason with the message contained in Book of Mormon about Jesus Christ. I wish you all the best on your journey - it sure isn't easy but doable.

[@redexon]

Let me reverse and ask you questions on the validity: 1) Why are there the same mistakes in BoM similar as in the King James translation if it was direct translation from ancient text? 2) For Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon how can Deutero-Isaiah be in the BoM when it was created after Lehi left Jerusalem? Also, Deutero-Isaiah was created by more than one author. 3) Nephi is stated to have had a "bow of steel." Steel was not invented at that point in time. And there was no iron smelted on this continent until after the Spaniard conquest. How does that happen? 4) The Book of Mormon says the Nephites possessed silk. Silk did not exist in America in pre-Columbian times. 5) Why does most historians call the BoM a 19th century writing? 6) Why did Joseph Smith almost sell the copyright of the BoM if this was such a critical ancient scripture from God? These are just some basic questions that can not be answered; however, faith is still based on facts or it becomes a myth. The answer for some people is that this was all a myth. It's not technicality if it is a myth.

[@carstonsteele6477]

Ill be honest, the majority of these have already been answered and debunked if not all of them. Spend more then two minutes of research and listen to some of the Church historians on FAIR @@redexon

[@sarahpinho1114]

The BOM is fiction, sorry...

[@Seaker01]

@@redexon Really? Really? This is what you have hinged your reasons on - goodness sakes. No one on this EARTH could have written a book like the Book of Mormon - it is too complex of a writing to be made by someone in 1800 - let alone in our day even with AI. This in addition to the complexity of history, names of prophets, and the words and teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. Here's a challenge to anyone reading this including Faith Unraveled...Read 3 Nephi 27 13-20 and come back and tell me that is not true and somehow fabricated to deceive men.

[@Ralph419]

See: Gospel Topics Essays, Book of Mormon Translation. Joseph Smith & Money-Digging by Jerald and Sandra Tanner. A Pathway to Prophethood by Mark Ashurst-McGee, MA thesis, USU, 2000

[@BoromirTolkien]

What would be a guess of how many teachers? Is it in the 10s or up to 100? With 1100 subscribers, I'm wondering how wide spread this is.

[@Faith.unraveled]

Over the past two years of posting on TikTok, I’ve had dozens reach out. Probably at least up to 100 that have mentioned it in my comments. 6 are from my real life.

[@BoromirTolkien]

@@Faith.unraveled That is amazing. I haven't been to church since the pandemic.

[@carstonsteele6477]

I do not know whom you are referring to but I am a current employee of the church and a full time religious educator and in the eastern region of all of Utah there was only one seminary teacher that left and it was to pursue a different career. I have spent time in the hiring department and BYU pre service division and this is honestly striking me as a blown out of proportion claim. I looked it up and the number of full time seminary teachers that left their positions not due to retirement was less than 1 percent in 2023 @@Faith.unraveled

[@user-jd9zm4jf3t]

@@carstonsteele6477 Do you think it's a plot by evil people?

[@carstonsteele6477]

Im not saying they are evil or this was a plot. But it isnt accurate information and comes off as devicive ​@@user-jd9zm4jf3t

[@carstonsteele6477]

As a seminary teachery and institute teacher This boggles my mind. We have had hardly any turnover in the last 15 years. I cannot speak for seminary teachers who are service calling holders but for full time religious educators. We have always taught the seer stones, urim and thummim, and progression to revelation. There is no Great exodus of seminary teachers and this just feels like another conflated exaggerated look at this story... its in JSH 1:35 There was like a 3 page article written on the subject in the october 2015 ensign, in 2013 a similar talk was given, in 2016 president Uchtdorf did an interview discussing this and a press article. This was well before we even did come follow me in 2019. This has never been a hidden secret or weird topic. We have had trainings, speeches, interviews, conference talks, and literal scripture on the subject.

[@user-jd9zm4jf3t]

I'm not LDS. I"m a Christian. Why should I change?

[@BoromirTolkien]

Yes, the Church teaches of the Urim and Thummim per JSH 1:35: "there were two stones in silver bows and these stones, fastened to a breastplate". Per the 2015 article, those stones are white or clear and set in silver bows like modern spectacles. However. "Joseph Smith and his associates began using the biblical term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to any stones used to receive divine revelations, including both the Nephite interpreters and the single seer stone. This imprecise terminology has complicated attempts to reconstruct the exact method by which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon." The 2013 article had similar information, "He described the instrument as 'spectacles' and referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim. He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed, called 'seer stones' because they aided him in receiving revelations as a seer." The one the Church published in association with Elder Uchtdorf's post (a seer stone is like a phone) is clearly not part of the Urim and Thummim because it is brown (www.ldsliving.com/church-releases-seer-stone-photo-handwritten-manuscript/s/79633). Where did this stone come from? Is there a better source than Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints)#:~:text=7%20References-,Seer%20stones%20and%20treasure%2Dhunting,stone%20to%20receive%20supernatural%20knowledge) which says "Smith had at least two seer stones, including a white stone that he found in about 1819, and a chocolate-colored stone that he found in 1822. His favored stone, chocolate-colored and about the size of an egg, was found in a deep well he helped dig for one of his neighbors. In 1827, Smith said he obtained the "Urim and Thummim" which was composed of two white stones, different from the previous two." What is the importance of this stone, if "According to Joseph Smith’s history, he returned the Urim and Thummim, or Nephite “interpreters,” to the angel. But what became of the other seer stone or stones that Joseph used in translating the Book of Mormon? Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery." It seems to have come to the Church from Oliver Cowdery passing it to Brigham Young (www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2015/10/joseph-the-seer?lang=eng) “I have Joseph’s 1st Seer Stone which I had from Oliver Cowdery,” President Young acknowledged in 1853. There were others as well. “Joseph had 3 which Emma has, 2 small ones and 1 large one.” @Faith.unraveled

[@Faith.unraveled]

Well, you’re welcome to visit my TikTok channel and sift through hundreds of thousands of comments where find at very minimum dozens of post seminary teachers. Probably far fewer that are CES employed, can you imagine deconstructing when it’s your full-time job? But for early-morning seminary teachers, this is abundantly common, even in my own stake. Also, just because someone isn’t talking about it doesn’t mean that they haven’t privately deconstructed and are going through the motions.

[@user-jd9zm4jf3t]

@@Faith.unraveled Some people will deny reality for sake of perpetuating a narrative. Such is the nature of brainwashing

[@carstonsteele6477]

​​YouRe using very generic terms and stating somewhere out there that there is probably maybe someone who is struggling that we dont know about or abundantly common without providing any information or statistics. Your using vast generalization to use the imagination of your viewers to enlarge the actual number. I've already posted earlier that i have worked in the pre-service vranch at byu as well as the hiring department, and the percentage of ces teachers who left the church in 2023 was less than one percent. Im absolutely open for constructive debate on topics with sources and so on, but this emotionally driven banter about he said she said maybe somewhere is a waste of time. I appreciate the offer to watch the tiktok of a bias disgruntled anti mormon, but i have better things to do with my life. Im trying to build my faith and study the scriptures and learn to be like christ. Creating a channel dedicated to the tearing down of someone's faith is truly a pursuit for the bored and those without values. ​@@Faith.unraveled

[@kimberlyr7347]

I also read in Lucy Smith’s bio that JS Senior had Lehi’s tree of life dream. I was like what the what?!?! JS junior just stole his father’s dream and threw it in the BOM???!?!! Omg.

[@kentthalman4459]

as well as those growing up in the 60s/70s.

[@user-rk2ez7mf4r]

I do a deep dive into Church history, and have for forty years. The seer stone was used little if at all while translating the plates. Don't try to look for a reason to bail out on the Church, you will be sorry later. I have published thousands of pages on the Book of Mormon, it is exactly what the witnesses said it is.

[@brb5506]

You are asking the wrong question: The question is less how we got the Book of Mormon than the Book of Mormon itself. After reading it and understanding the complexity of the narrative, as a student of literature and history, I have found no better explanation for it than that it had to have come about by supernatural means -- all of the purported other explanations, from the Spaulding manuscript onward, are themselves hoaxes or are sufficient as explanations only to lazy thinkers looking for easier lives than that demanded by the Book of Mormon. This is the intellectual level. If I read it and ponder it and apply its teachings, it has had a profoundly positive impact on my life. This is the emotional and experiential level. Finally, I have prayed about it, as Moroni asked: What I received was too profound to ignore.

[@davidtorbenson4686]

I don't think one must be restricted only asking one or the other question. One can find the Book of Mormon to be inspiring and teach truth while still questioning why the leadership of the church chose to not be transparent on a lot of topics until being forced to do so. I love your testimony, but you lose credibility when you play the "lazy thinker" card. Joseph Smith said that "we are not to be saved in ignorance". As an active leader in the church - I find lazy thinking (and also real earnest study/research) among both faithful and questioning members -

[@Yanquetino]

Riiiight. So all the scientific findings by archaeologists, anthropologists, historians, linguists, and DNA biologists over the last 200 years are just flat out wrong, huh? Sorry to tell you, but the Nephites never existed. You would do well to adhere to the advice of Carl Sagan: "If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new ones arise."

[@brb5506]

@@Yanquetino Actually, there is considerable evidence, both internal and external, for the existence of Book of Mormon civilizations. If you look for it. If the evidence were in your face obvious, you would have no choice but to believe. God will not force anyone to believe. It's up to you to you to get off your butt mentally and seek the truth for yourself.

[@brb5506]

@davidtorbenson4686 Why are you so judgemental? Why are you assuming -- an act of the mentally lazy -- that I have not also looked at the evidence of origin and translation critically? I have, but I find the spiritual evidence, that of the Holy Ghost, to be the most compelling. And why are you so judgmental of Church leadership -- it's easier to judge than to suspend judgment of others and be charitable -- who are human just like you and me. Are you looking for an excuse not to EXERCISE faith?

[@kentthalman4459]

tried to find..... but never succeeding.

[@user-iq9xm7go2k]

If my testimony means that Im arrogant then so be it, but the seer stone is and never was a secret. The church is true and its so sad to see its former members lose their faith. So sorry for you guys who struggle with your faith but if you search diligently with a hopeful mind rather than a doubtful mind you will see many great things that God offers us.

[@user-by3me4vr5j]

I have never lost my faith in God; only in the organization and for many reasons. God is still with us all......in fact, I feel I know God better after leaving, so no reason to feel sorry for us.

[@user-iq9xm7go2k]

@@user-by3me4vr5j I love that you feel a connection with God. However, you will never feel closer to him than when you bind yourself to Him through covenants and then keep them. You feel that the church was bad for you because you chose to have an attitude to believe it is giving you no good. There are too many rules. Well, those rules are called the commandments of God and His standards. Many people feel that they are too hard to keep to leaving the church will just make it easier and somehow justify there wrong doings even though in reality it never will. If you wish for me not to feel sorry then that's okay. I won't be sorry but it does make me sad and you can't tell me not to be sad for you because I know that thus church is true and it is truly sad when someone choose to deny or reject it. The atonement of Jesus Christ is the best thing that has ever happened on the face of this Earth. He loves you so much.

[@CMZIEBARTH]

Would you like better information on this?

[@user-jd9zm4jf3t]

LDS: Could you give me your salvation testimony???

[@hbwilly54]

Please read The lost 116 pages from Don Bradly . I think you will find some of the answers there. Understand everything will take faith and you will be tested. If you don't believe I hope you find joy in your life.

[@brandonmoss5149]

I truly believe that it takes faith and having a testimony in studies of the BOM. I wish you nothing but peace and joy as you go throughout your life as you build you’re own Testimony.

[@JohnDLee-im4lo]

Stop the crap...the vast, vast majority of LDS seminary teachers are good, loyal faithful members. Your video is shamelessly pandering views. Petty and small.

[@livingtruth2374]

Rubbish: "I can't tell you how many Seminary teachers have reached out to me" - classic cheap hearsay - don't you know that 'bandwagon' schtick is getting old? People see right through it. The seer stone issue is a dumb reason to leave the Church. I LOVED studying the Doctrine and Covenants and the translation of the Book of Mormon. It was translated by the gift and power of God and there isn't anything you can do to change that. I went through that period you speak of - the 80s and there was no subterfuge with the way the translation was pictured. Joseph Smith History 1:35 (which is scripture, in the Pearl of Great Price) says: "the possession and use of these STONES were what constituted "seers" in ancient or former times, and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the Book." Now I realize some don't bother to read the scriptures, that's on them. But it's no surprise, we've always known that God had Joseph used stones to translate the Book of Mormon. Duh. The two principal witnesses of the translation of the Book of Mormon were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and they both consistently testified that it was translated with the Urim and Thummim, which the angel Moroni himself defined as "two STONES in silver bows - and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim - deposited with the plates." (Joseph Smith - History 1: 33.) Whether a separate sacred steer stone became a primary translation instrument, there's some evidence that it may have been used, but we don't know that for sure, nor do we know just how frequently. And I knew that back in the 1980's, too - that's never affected my testimony. But the cheap thing you're doing here is using this subject to bash the Church - claiming this is evidence that it's not true. But it's the same old stuff. You guys need to get some new subjects. The other witnesses of translation didn't even speak on the subject, that we know of, for over 30 or 40 years. Martin Harris scribed for none of the Book of Mormon we have today. 74% of the Book of Mormon was already translated before Joseph ever met David Whitmer, and he was never a scribe. In fact, a real witness testified that while at the Whitmer Farm Joseph and Oliver occupied an upstairs room, away from the family, as they translated - which makes common sense as it was a highly spiritual and sacred activity. You wouldn't do that in the kitchen with pans clanging and shelves banging open and shut throughout the day and people coming in and out & etc. And if you're really concerned that the Church has not been honest, then why don't you be honest yourself? Don't put an anti-spin on our history or practices to try to convince people the Church is not true.

[@Faith.unraveled]

Didn’t get past the first sentence. If you want to visit my TikTok, you’re welcome to sift through hundreds of thousands of comments which at the very least have dozens of post seminary teachers. Have a day!

[@livingtruth2374]

@@Faith.unraveled Dozens? Ok, let's say it's two dozen. There are THOUSANDS of current and former Seminary teachers worldwide in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. So let's do a little math: If we use only 2500 as an estimated number (there's more going back two or three decades or so), then 24 (two dozen) is approximately 1%. So 99% of Seminary teachers do not lose their testimony or leave the faith. But we don't expect such truth, such perspective on an anti channel, especially one that hopped over from Tik Toc that preys upon youth and even young children - a Tik-Toc audience of which 25% are 10-14 years of age. These are online spiritual predators.

[@JIKOKALOL]

Look into the magic hat....Hocus Pocus.....jiggle some rocks.....out comes the new word of god!

[@livingtruth2374]

@@JIKOKALOL All the sick, pathetic mockery and cheap falsehoods from the great and spacious building about the translation of the Book of Mormon don't get ten feet... Instead, it evidences a lack of ability and understanding to even in the first place argue the issue on a truth basis - therefore here come the knee-jerk putdowns and false comparisons of a sacred translation to the occult...and the stupid lol's. You guys' arguments (if you ever had any) are so old - you've got nothin'... The Book of Mormon is true, ancient scripture. It was translated by the gift and power of God - and much as that reality for some is hard to handle, and grates upon the hyper-disaffected soul, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[@ithinkipoopt]

I didn't learn church history from paintings. So, I don't have this problem.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

Yeah same! Critical thinkers and learners don’t have this issue. This lady, never addresses what’s wrong with the narrative, completely forgetting the religious and supernatural claims of revelation, and the ancient setting of seer stones and interpreters.

[@SteveSmith-os5bs]

I went on my mission 78 to 80. I remember that in our flip charts we used. We would show investors the artist rendering of Joseph dutifully transling the Book of Mormon directly from the plates as we introduced them to the Book of Mormon. The church has always made great efforts to misrepresent its history.

[@scandia67]

You don't remember those prints of Joseph wearing the Urim and Thummim with the golden plates in front of him? Or were you born yesterday?

[@scandia67]

@@devinhildebrandt2709 TBMs are the least knowledgeable about their own religion.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@SteveSmith-os5bs If you think a painting establishes doctrine, you never understood in the first place. And? A lot of painting depict Nephites as all having swords made of metal. Whereas, the text only mentions a couple who truly did. So what? An artist can think differently. They might also understand things differently.

[@saguaro23]

If he used it to try to find treasure on their property they must have thought it would actually work. Why would they have so much confidence in it to even try it? Would you use your cell phone to try to find a business in your area? Why would you do that? … because you know it works.j

[@davidtorbenson4686]

A good point - but I don't think we have one documented case of the seer stone actually locating real treasure

[@gcarson19]

Nice try...

[@Ralph419]

See Travels through the northern parts of the United States, in the year 1807 and 1808 by Edward Augustus Kendall, published 1809, pages 84-104.

[@truthseeker23aus]

Nephi had to go back to Jerusalem was to retrieve their history and their scriptures. You are full of misinformation. Leaning on your own understanding vs leaning on the Holy Ghost. Sorry.

[@JIKOKALOL]

Nephi is a made up character in a made up fantasy world.

[@matthewhessler3257]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-say Saints is the Church Jesus Christ established in His mortal ministry, and restored through the Prophet Hoseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is true. It was translated by the Gift and Power of God, that is all that is needed to be known about the process. If you really want to know the truth, don’t listen to doubters, but go to the Lord in faith filled prayer, and He will tell you that it is true by the feelings of the Holy Ghost. Faith and doubt cannot only occupy the same space at the same time. Darkness flees when light is introduced. The words of this woman, which are the seeds of doubt will flee if you introduce Light, and fully rely upon the Holy Ghost for your answer.

[@JIKOKALOL]

Where is Joe Smiths underwear hidden? That's where you can find truth.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

This was in so many recourses before the 1980s. Sounds like you just didn’t study much.

[@scandia67]

No, it wasn't.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@scandia67 Yes. Yes it was. “A Peaceful Heart,” Friend, Sep 1974 Richard Lloyd Anderson, "‘By the Gift and Power of God’," Ensign (Sep 1977), 79, Kenneth W. Godfrey, "A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon," Ensign (Jan 1988) Russell M. Nelson, “A Treasured Testament,” Ensign, Jul 1993, 61. It was mentioned in BH Roberts “A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”

[@Half-stache]

You’re correct that the seer stone was mentioned prior to the 2015 picture. I remember hearing about it and just having faith that god worked a miracle through JS. The problem arises when you dig into how it was obtained and what it was used for prior to the BoM. That when it’s clear that the seer stone is the thread that binds JS’s actions as a conman treasure digger to a conman religious leader. But I guess I didn’t study very much. LOL.

[@devinhildebrandt2709]

@@Half-stache People actually believed that he could, use the seer stone for Treasure digging. You have no evidence that he was a conman. That is your subjective opinion. Provide some evidence. He also used the white seer stone that he found on some occasions to translate, not just the one he had prior to. I guess you didn’t.

[@Half-stache]

@@devinhildebrandt2709 Sir, do you really think a KZbin comment is the place to present evidence? And besides, the white stone that JS presented to Michael Chandler to “read” the papyrus is another example of a failed translation just like every other so called “translation” where we have the source document. What are the chances of failing the kinderhook, Book of Abraham, JS translation of the Bible and getting the BOM right? It’s zero sir. To believe otherwise is cognitive dissonance. Have a good day.