Why some British Diesels had Tenders - BR Brake Tenders

[@grantmuddiman5981]

Good video one mistake they where vacuum brakes some good pictures

[@ViolaHarmony]

Diesel Locos: *Gets Brake Tender* Steam Locos: "Look What They Need to Mimic a Fraction of Our Power"

[@James_Knott]

Those were to help the trains stop, not run. As mentioned, many British trains didn't have brakes on most of the cars.

[@Charmaster04]

@ It's a popular meme template.

[@TheRip72]

Not really, or more like not at all. Diesels were more efficient, cleaner, easier to maintain, provided a better working environment & clearly had the potential to be more powerful, which they soon achieved. This was more important for a working railway than being able to hear something go chuff chuff as you got covered in dirty smoke. Don't get carried away with steam being faster either. Anything more than 90mph was considered risky & Mallard couldn't even pull its record breaking train into Kings Cross because it suffered a hot box when setting its record.

[@lukechristmas3951]

I think what I find most fascinating about the BR brake tenders is that they used parts from withdrawn coaches. Putting in still good use of materials already available and it helps with some uniformity to the trains, in a way. And a very humbling piece of rolling stock for many "revolutionary" first generation diesels.

[@clearboardproductions503]

Last time I was this early, BR ran trains on time.

[@keitho.sylvan1137]

36 minutes ago is crazy

[@Combes_]

Okay... So pre-1948... (BR was established in 1948)

[@srinikhavijay43]

The last time I was this early, BR didn’t exist There I fixed it your you

[@crossovertrainfan8345]

That's because as of now in modern times, modern British diesels have specialized brakes.

[@844SteamFan]

Last time I was this early, Amtrak was on time. (I’m 5 hours late)

[@Icesurfer-ir7sf]

I could easily imagine a RWS story about say BoCo or Bear using such a brake tender coupled to having difficulties at first but then learning sense of them in the end. Great video as always 👍🏼

[@Ludi_Chris]

I did see one were BoCo used one but Thomas who was shunting at Wellsworth ‘burrowed’ it. I can’t remember who made it though.

[@Putrionobayu_]

NWR1991 made a Boco story about it you should check it out

[@primrosevale1995]

“She saw a brake tender was about to be coupled to her, and was most indignant. ‘Do they expect me to pull that?’, she said. ‘Surely,’ said her driver, ‘you can pull one tender!’”

[@chalwa07]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/q5POc6p5hapnsNEsi=YSlGK-wA4alk2_Cv

[@Charmaster04]

@@primrosevale1995 Not sure if Daisy would have needed a brake tender, considering she's probably never had to pull more than a few wagons, but I wonder if it would have helped her avoid getting stranded during the snowstorm in that one Christopher Awdry story.

[@DerekWalsh-l4i]

In the early 1960s Peak diesels were to be seen working a fair number of freight trains in the Northampton area, with brake tenders, but I never saw one being pushed. They were always immediately behind the locomotive.

[@AndrewJohnson-ur3lw]

Most of the continuous brakes were vacuum rather than air as per the big hose on the locos and brake tender. Air brakes are two thinner pipes often dangling from the buffer beam. Transition from vacuum to air for braking took place after steam locos were replaced.

[@robertarcher8576]

I’ve seen the shunter at Old Dalby test track using brake wagons fore and aft when shunting unbraked test trains for exactly the same reason.

[@dodgydruid]

Before they were used, the heavy unfitted coal trains in and around the north east coal fields became absolute nightmares if the weather was damp or wet and common to see a diesel wheels locked skating out of control even with the brake van full braking and wasn't uncommon for shuffling wagons to jump off the rails due to the irregular braking forces. Shuffling affected all engines, even the 9f's could find their nose shuffled over a signal treadle into the next block by a long rake of coal wagons as the principles of kinetic energy wasn't widely understood and a 4 wheel brake van can only do so much at the far end, the front engine would hard brake, the energy transferred up the rake through the spring buffers to meet the hard braking brake van and would rebound back adding tons of kinetic energy each wagon it bounced through and hammer the front engine along the rails.

[@jacobcave1587]

Imagine if Boco had one of these Bill and Ben would tease him endlessly about it

[@vasilybullock7967]

Someone made a fan episode about him having a brake tender

[@jacobcave1587]

@ I’m aware

[@ChristianJagarnauth]

Nwr1991

[@LBSC70]

Quaint little lads that did a good job

[@Nope777-20LR]

Finally a video on the Break Tender

[@tad7441]

You think we could get slip coaches sometime in the future?

[@12crepello]

It's actually about the brake tender!

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Shame he made a hash of the braking system being used.

[@kaitlyn__L]

The tender which breaks down

[@tim3172]

Imagine being an adult who can't spell "brake"?

[@Ghauster]

These were even used in the States. A line near me used old tenders with the bodywork removed and scrap rail for weight to give switchers extra braking power when shoving around cuts of cars in the yard. The yard was flat enough for switching without using air brakes on the cars.

[@davidfuller581]

Switching in a yard is a different matter than road freight.

[@goawaygoawaynow]

@@davidfuller581 Well yes, but it's the same idea: Add a wagon to the loco specifically for braking unbraked stock

[@keith800]

Always interesting to find out about obscure items of rolling stock or anything else about our railways , they are a never ending source of innovation.

[@BrakeCoach]

Rare moment in BR where a stop-gap measure was not permanent

[@James_Knott]

Yeah, only several decades!

[@JackFirebrace1917]

I remember seeing Engy 3's and Brush 2's fitted with these brake tenders. Last one's I saw were at Doncaster Plant around 1971 for scrapping.

[@royale4318]

You learn something every day ... !

[@Mr_Vibhu.]

Literally Steam Engines in this video "Hold My Brakes"

[@jamespayne9294]

I don't quite know how it works but when in the video you say air breaks I think you mean to say Vacuum brakes as they were more coman in BR days. I only know this because as a volunteer for the Great Central Railway when over the years we have had more modern diesels visit for a Diesel Gala such as a class 66 some years ago this loco worked on air breaks but the BR MK1's that it was hauling were vacuum braked only so a Diesel locomotive with both braking systems had to go in between the 66 and the MK1's to convert and work the brakes.

[@vickielawless]

Agreed, early diesels used vacuum train brakes, the locomotive having it's own air brakes. British Railways was far slower in adopting the superior air brake, or in the case of slow good trains, any continuous brakes at all!

[@HighballMachineWorks]

Yep, even diesels need some “tender” loving care (Limes myself)

[@Chainstorm]

I was wondering if you wpuld cover this after I saw your steam tender video. You make very informative videos. I learn something new every video!

[@NextEevolution]

This would honestly be a nice model to be made for early British diesel enthusiasts

[@michaelmclachlan1650]

They're available as both kits and RTR in 4mm and 3D printed bodies in N.

[@NextEevolution]

@@michaelmclachlan1650 I don't know why I assumed they hadn't been made in RTR but just googled it and found Dapol made a pretty nice one in 2015,

[@michaelmclachlan1650]

@@NextEevolution No worries. I don't believe the Dapol brake tender is currently in production but some second hand ones are listed on THAT website and I'm sure there are other sources.

[@mxg75]

I guess one advantage of pushing a tender is it moves the locomotive crew a bit further back in the train, which is safer for them if there’s a collision at a level crossing. Train crews who started on steam locomotives before transitioning to diesel would have been used to having the entire boiler and smoke box in front of them anyway. The Southern Railroad in the US ran their diesel hood units long hood forward for years for this reason, until manufacturers stopped offering the design, only selling short full-width noses.

[@jerrysgardentractorsengine2243]

With this video, we’re one step closer to ToT discussing the Western Pacific Diesel tenders

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Very few coaches had airbrakes in the 1960s. Most vehicles fitted with automatic brakes used vacuum brakes.

[@michaelXXLF]

Unfitted freight trains were a phantastically dangerous idea!

[@darrenrawlinson6344]

We called them "Coffin Brakes", due to the shape, and they certainly did the job!

[@PaulMiller-h2l]

The first photo, was taken from the foot bridge at March Station.

[@timesnewlogan2032]

So they were basically giant metal drag chutes? Neat!

[@NSMerryweather4771]

Vacuum brakes. Not air. Air brakes weren't introduced until the 1970s.

[@22pcirish]

William Stroudley fitted them to his locos and coaches of the LBSCR from the 1870’s. Vacuum took over as it was cheaper.

[@templar_1138]

Not a bad stop-gap measure.

[@BlueGuy_official]

Finaly i was waiting for this

[@justandy333]

I had no idea that the tenders on steam engines were also braked. And also came as quite a surprise to me that early freight wagons weren't braked as well! I always thought they used a vacuum brake system and then later on switched over to compressed air. Seeing a 50 wagon freight train going down the Lickey incline with only the steam engine able to apply the brakes seems rather terrifying in my modern eyes!

[@marshallman7608]

When I started on the footplate in 1980 there were still unbraked trains, primarily engineering trains.

[@russellgxy2905]

You’re right about vacuum being the standard, but the it’s actually a bit weirder than that. Yes, most freights up to the early 60s used unbraked wagons. That’s just part of why trucks and vans were as small as they were. If you’ve ever heard the term “stop to pin down brakes,” it literally meant the wagons needed to have their brakes applied before the train started descending. There’s some clips from Railway Roundabout showing how trains descended the Lickey, with some trains having a mix of fitted and unfitted stock.

[@justandy333]

@russellgxy2905 yea, I seen footage of sorting yard workers running alongside trucks, inserting a pole into the manual brake and putting their body weight on it to engage said brake and running to catch the next one. But that's in a yard, not on the main line. I've always thought this system couldn't be used on the mainline, because you can't disengage them easily. But hey, I'm happy to have been proven wrong. I must get hold of the railway roundabout series'. Been meaning to for ages.

[@marshallman7608]

Some locations, before the start of a falling gradient, had a lineside warning sign "AWB", apply wagon brakes. An unbraked freight had to stop and the guard applied enough wagon brakes to be able to control the train during the descent. Shunters used two different "poles". One was a shunting pole, about an inch and a half in diameter and 6' long with a hook at the end. That was primarily used for uncoupling and coupling wagons, the hook was used to grab the coupling and swing it up onto the drawhook of the other wagon, best done as the wagons met, easier to swing the coupling. The other was a brake stick, much shorter than a shunting pole (about 4' long) and much more substantial. Square ended, about 3" square, changing to about 2" diameter at the "handle" end. The wagon's handbrake lever was lifted off its resting hook and the brake stick placed usually under the wagon suspension and used to lever the brake lever down forcing the brake shoes against the wheels.

[@fishpop]

Only reason i already knew these were a thing is cos a Thomas fan series had BoCo get one

[@legitscoper3259]

Couldnt find images of it, but i know that in shunting in germany at least as of 2018 in Nürnberg there still was rebuild 6 axle Samms waggons used wich were permanently fitted with concrete blocks and headlights for braking porpuse.

[@Mr.NeilOfficial]

i was waiting for this!

[@joshuaW5621]

This was a cool experiment. Now I’m kinda surprised nobody else thought of using brake tenders for diesels.

[@kkobayashi1]

I'm not sure if anybody else ran freight trains with diesel locomotives and without air or vacuum brakes.

[@DennisLora2001]

Amazing video Train of thought ❤❤❤❤❤

[@Kevin_Rhodes]

It is amazing to me how much later the UK went to air brakes than the US. They were universally mandated here by act of Congress in 1893, with a seven year grace period, so where universal from 1900 for any cars that were interchanged between railroads. From then, only completely isolated (like the 2' gauge Monson RR in Maine) or industrial lines did not have them.

[@Shoehandler1142]

Last time I was this early, America had the best rail systems in the world.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

That never happened.

[@kkobayashi1]

When was that, 1930s?

[@kaseycaseyiel]

​@@kkobayashi1 Maybe like the 40s

[@Lucius_Chiaraviglio]

Interesting to see a couple of photos of a diesel double-heading with a steam locomotive.

[@pebblecups]

Did we ever, or do we have, in the UK, any with traction motors? Slugs? Or was it only the brake tenders? Apart from Class 13s.

[@joshuaW5621]

I only know about slugs being used on North American railroads. Btw, has TOT done a video on them before?

[@EE12CSVT]

Nope, none. The brake tenders didn't have any traction equipment, only vacuum powered tread brakes.

[@janwitts2688]

It's because you got a lot of deer on the line in the north

[@adamlee3772]

Wow, it is incredible this question answered, thanks.

[@keitho.sylvan1137]

This is a great video. Keep it up

[@dakshanbalaramesh]

Day 2 of asking Train of Thought to cover Sri Lanka Railways' Main Line

[@ethanbarnett1788]

Who’s here before 1 million?

[@andrewadams3894]

How is it that Britain took 70+ years more than the US to apply continuous braking to freight trains? I'm serious. What permitted the railroads to provide effective service without continuous braking? What compromises did it entail?

[@LukePerez-px9rc]

You should make a video of the new zealand flying matangi AKA the melling accident

[@gabrielbennett5162]

In the United States, Southern Pacific experimented with this idea in the late 1970s and early 80s. Their Fairbanks-Morse H-24-66 Train Master diesel locomotives were being withdrawn from service and SP modified several of them into "Brake Sleds" by removing their cabs, car bodies and running gear (except for airbrakes) and replacing them with a flat ballast compartment, several feet deep, filled with concrete. Operational results were mixed and the SP Brake Sleds were all scrapped by 1985.

[@pacificostudios]

These "brake-tenders" remind me of the "Slugs" that used to be attached to switch engines. Switch (shunting) engines do not go fast, which leaves a lot of potential energy that can be put into additional motors. Hence the "slugs," locomotives with motors and extra weight, but no engine or cab. They were seen most often in yards, where a single engine might be called upon to move a huge train by itself, albeit at very slow speed.

[@PaulMiller-h2l]

I am not sure if the braketender could be fitted to the locos straight air brake, I will ask a retired driver the next time I see one, though many have passed on

[@BobHawes-l8t]

Despite what this video says, all brake tenders were vacuum brake and vacuum brake only. None were ever fitted with air brakes.

[@adamlee3772]

Cool video. Silly question. Why have a diesel locomotive with a tender or two tenders and a steam locomotive with the carriages as well? It is seems odd that one of the photos there has a working steaming loco and diesel loco and tender?

[@richcatsinthewelder5232]

The brake tenders weren't usually used on passenger trains (as the coachs were already fitted with vacuum brakes) so the diesel was probably assisting a failed or stalled train.

[@adamlee3772]

@ ahhh. That makes sense. Thanks.

[@leprechaun1492]

I mean that's a similar concept of what the Americans did we use slugs that are just electric motors that are electrically coupled up to the main engine and it provides extra breaking and extra power without the need of tying up extra locomotives

[@James_Knott]

Mainly for providing power in yards, etc., where the locos are operating well below peak power.

[@davidfuller581]

Honestly the utter absurdity of BR not having every single piece of rolling stock fitted with pneumatic brakes by the 1950s is beyond me. The US had this as a requirement _more than fifty years_ prior.

[@brenlc1412]

“We diesels are taking over, and we don’t need tenders to make us important. Not even one.” ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?

[@FoxBoi69]

why would they put dead weight in there instead of extra fuel or actual cargo?

[@elishabee2]

Because they are designed to be permanently heavy and attached to a locomotive. Fuel gets consumed, and cargo gets unloaded at the end of the trip.

[@PaulMiller-h2l]

Big Error! Not sure how air brakes come into it, I worked at Whitemoor 1974 to the 1980s, and never heard of through air airbrakes, until locos were fitted , well after the brake tenders had gone, could be wrong though but......

[@Titan604]

Please please - it was vacuum brakes not air. It really needs the commentary changing.

[@00Zy99]

The Big 4 used vacuum. BR switched over to air.

[@NSMerryweather4771]

Not until the mid 1970s ​@@00Zy99

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

​@00Zy99 although some of the constituents of the Big 4 used airbrakes.

[@NSMerryweather4771]

@@00Zy99 not until the mid 1970s

[@Titan604]

@ 00Zy99 is quite correct, many such as the Great Eastern and the Caledonian Railway used the Westinghouse air brake instead of vacuum, and their steam locos and stock were so fitted. However by the time of the dawn of the diesels the vacuum brake was the universal standard.

[@ONEFATE9]

The brake tender. An interesting yet flawed idea from British Rail. How bad were things in that time that you couldn't upgrade your wagons to air brakes?

[@EE12CSVT]

Or even convert them to vacuum brakes. The cost would be colossal. Much cheaper to run them into the ground and then only use vacuum braked ones, and afterwards air or dual braked ones.

[@lalnablehector1285]

I don't know why but for some reason i feel like you have covered this topic before in another video or maybe im just having a moment 😅

[@IainDavies-z2l]

I think you'll find they were vacuum brake tenders as apart from Freightliner introduced in the mid 60s all freight trains were unfitted or vacuum well into 70s early 80s.

[@kevfrombutterley]

HAA coal hoppers were air braked from their introduction in 1964 👍

[@davidfuller581]

Vacuum is still entirely better than unfitted, at least you get _some_ braking power from them.

[@IainDavies-z2l]

At least one thing good came out of the Beeching report was Freightliner, Merry go round and air braked freight trains.

[@chrisscutchings3742]

Why were the brake tenders pushed in front of the locomotive and not pulled by the loco?

[@Tom-Lahaye]

A peak or a class 40 aren't that much lower in weight than a 9f, it was especially the smaller type 2 locomotives that suffered the most from lack of weight and therefore brake power.

[@keitho.sylvan1137]

36 minutes ago is crazy

[@somerandofilipino6957]

Can you talk about the Soviet E-class 0-10-0 locomotives? Those things have so little information for how numerous they were.

[@kevin-2.1]

Won’t the tender weight more and could make the diesel use more of its fuel?

[@greycatturtle7132]

Cool

[@PaulMiller-h2l]

I cannot see any air pipes on photos of brake tenders, only the vacuum pipes.

[@RobSchofield]

A very "Thomas the Tank Engine" moral message at the end 🤓

[@TheStickCollector]

Something you don't see often.

[@toyotaprius79]

A lot oppertunity to have these brake tenders to act as battery-regen accumulators

[@themysticdarkrai]

How do you decide what to make videos on

[@mafarnz]

Meanwhile in North America…. Oh look, dynamic brakes!

[@spearmintpony7105]

These things remind me of the American slug locomotives.

[@markst.germain9286]

You're telling me in the 1960s British rail cars still did not have air brakes?

[@EE12CSVT]

Yep. Only started to become introduced from mid 60s onwards with Mk2 passenger coaches, comverted Mk1s, as all BR steam locos weren't fitted with air brakes. Only diesels and electrics were.

[@TankCrusher210]

The United States mandated air brakes and automatic couplers on every single piece of rolling stock in the year 1900. Meanwhile in Britain:

[@kaitlyn__L]

Yeahhhh Glasgow!!

[@arthurhammeke8296]

On the subject of extra breaking, the UP 4014 uses rolling stock as a braking solution. The massive steam engine would use up expensive brake shoes otherwise.

[@tim3172]

Wait, what's breaking, other than your English?

[@PaulfromChicago]

Cool. I figured those were slugs.

[@davidnolan1692]

In O.S. Nock’s book Histroric Railway Disasters Chapter 4 is entitled The Battle Of The Brakes 1870-90 & for good reason as British Railway Company’s refused the government’s insistence to fit their stock with brakes, the attitude of these people takes some believing as they not only resented any interference by parliament they refused point blank to take on any good ideas that came from other British companies (now that’s nimbyism) so when American inventer George Westinghouse made his 1st visit in 1871 to display his own work in the straight air brake that was rapidly being adopted by US railways he found it almost impossible to make progress here which puzzled him as his brake was far superior to any brake system being used in the UK but during his tour he met Engineering Journal editor John Dredge who told him that if the train broke in 2 parts the brakes should come on in both parts or ir a brake defect occurred they should still operate either side of the defective vehicle so George went home reworked it and in 1874 patented the triple valve , astoundingly only the LNER & LBSR adopted it , the MR almost did but went back on their word & opted for the simple non automatic vac brake, the LNWR went for a guards chain brake , it would take the 1889 Armagh runaway collision to shock public opinion into parliament compelling the companies to fit automatic brake systems but it only applied to passenger trains & vacuum brakes goods wagons were ingnored.

[@thomasawl]

better name: the measle

[@harrisonallen651]

Diesel Ten-Der

[@MartinVladov]

Nice looks like a slug

[@vsvnrg3263]

you kept saying air brakes where i think you mean vacuum brakes not westinghouse compressed air brakes which can apply far more braking force than vacuum brakes. its a bit poor that any wagon in use in the 20th century has no brakes.

[@ayayaybamba3445]

It still seems like a massive waste to me not to have these things filled with fuel (like actual tenders) and have their wheels be powered for extra tractive effort. Steam struggled with the whole "powered tender" concept because moving pressurized steam through a hinged pipe is not exactly easy, but diesel fuel would be so simple it would be almost comical. I guess they would be more expensive, but it would still be way cheaper than two locomotives kinda like how slugs are used in America railyards.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

As that fuel is used up the tractive effort reduces. The Americans found this out with their triplexes.

[@elishabee2]

Tractive effort wasn't an issue (if it was they would have just stuck another loco on the front), brake force was the issue.

[@madjldk]

Trains 0:14

[@EE12CSVT]

Nope, vacuum braked, as were almost all of the freight wagon and coaching fleet. Stock in the 1950s to mid 60s was either unbraked or vac braked, and slowly air braked wagons and new coaching stock became available.

[@s.p.spondolax4863]

1

[@cliffcosynerflight5253]

Diesel. Im a tender engine now.... roll pass the the steam engines

[@Bubbarain717]

It’s a British slug.

[@Ludi_Chris]

Tenders should always been pulled behind an engine. You never push anything out in front.

[@skog4437]

not if you don't have facility to run around it

[@VigilanteAgumon]

Unless it's an armored train

[@EE12CSVT]

Why?

[@PaulMiller-h2l]

Why not? How were snow ploughs operated?

[@arandomguy8352]

american diesels be laughing.

[@gzk6nk]

What a stupid idea, typical of cash-strapped BR. Don't fit continuous brakes to freight wagons, just push tens of tons of dead weight, instead of revenue earning freight, around.

[@EE12CSVT]

Nope, vacuum braked, as were almost all of the freight wagon and coaching fleet. Stock in the 1950s to mid 60s was either unbraked or vac braked, and slowly air braked wagons and new coaching stock became available.