Why The Ancient Sith Believed the Rule of 2 Were Pathetic Losers - Star Wars Explained

[@oddmanout8692]

I've seen videos asking "Which Sith Lord had the best Drip?" So I understand how they could be mad at Palpatine. The man walked around in a corduroy rug after ROTS. 😂

[@AValentine-u9u]

My ranking is 1. Tavion & Alora (technically dark Jedi) 2. Traya 3. Palpatine 4. Asajj Ventress 5. Tenebrious 6. Valcorion 7. Darth Maul 8. Nihilus 9. Malgus 10. Malak 9.

[@Xogroroth666]

He was pathetic: The way he killed his master? Un-Sithlike. His continuous fail at every turn? Un-Sithlike. His cheating? Un-Sithlike. He had no true Dark powers save for manipulation, this he TRULY mastered, but there it ends. Fact.

[@AdamMichalMarkowski]

Ancient Sith to modern Sith: "Do you even lift... a planet using Force?"

[@orangecitrus8056]

modern sith to ancient sith: what color is your death star?

[@Apeironization1]

@@orangecitrus8056 ancient sith to modern sith, do you even know what color is the force?

[@noneofyourbusiness2437]

​@@orangecitrus8056 "Its gray, unpainted, metal. A bomb, that crushes planets, and makes survivors wounds in the force." Or "I AM my deathstar, draining all life from any planet I come to. All life exists only to feed my hunger."

[@MichaelB07]

Sidious in the EU being able to create force storms and space wormholes, having the ability to drain the life force out of people and fuel himself and his dark side machinations (Dark Empire) and also having the ability to shake planets while also being able to create natural storms on Coruscant.

[@Apeironization1]

@@MichaelB07 It doesn't matter what Palpatine did in EU, when I compare him what he did and what ancient Sith were shown to do, no way Palpatine is the most powerful than these ancient Sith, sorry. They can say it million times, but what is shown is not backed up by the evidence.

[@joseaustin2692]

I would say the old ways created true Warriors the rule of two was made for the purpose to specifically take down the Jedi order. It took them 1000 years to do it, and they only ruled for roughly 25 years then the emperor died. It’s kind of like if you ever Saw a red. All of the old characters were much much stronger than the current ones because they grew up in battle in blood and sweat. The rule of two takes a hell of a chance that if the old master is eliminated and just a freak, accident happens to the new master before he gets a new apprentice. The line is broken which it was nearly broken at the 500 year mark that’s how some of the ancient magic was lost

[@EgoChip]

They always had a backup plan though. Such was the nature of the Sith, the apprentice would take on an apprentice of their own behind their master's back as they plotted to overthrow their master. Like Sidious did with Maul while Plagueis was alive. Vader did the same.

[@eriknewton4656]

i hate how people say the rule of 2 failed when it really didn't. the only reason it didn't survive was because darth plagueis his master and sidious completely deviated away from it. they focused on their own personal goals instead of advancing the goals of the sith. bane knew he wouldn't live to see the jedi fall but his rule of 2 is why the jedi fell. i think it would have worked still had sidious, his master, and plaguie's master didn't abandon it completely and run it the way it was supposed to. bane warned the sith would be destroyed if they pursued their own goals rather than furthering the cause of the sith which is what happend.

[@ndcp2379]

I also think the Ancient Sith were purest when it came to their code. To them power was the ultimate goal and it is not shared it must be taken. If you were not strong enough to take it you were weak and therefore not worthy. They probably saw the rule of two Sith as being given power and therefore weaklings not worthy of that power.

[@markcarpenter6020]

​@@ndcp2379as well as eliminating the competition that would strengthen them. The old sith constantly pitted themselves against each other. Not just apprentices but the masters as well.

[@DanJuega]

@@eriknewton4656I mean if it only takes two people to deviate for it to fall apart then it failed.

[@bookingitwithwill402]

Plaugeis was such an annoying "umm ackually" Sith that even Marka Ragnos preferred to just pretend he didn't exist.

[@DeezNuggz]

😂

[@chiquita683]

Ancient Sith were haters that were mad that Plageus and Sidious were succeeding while the ancient Sith got their teeth kicked in by Jedi their whole life

[@bookingitwithwill402]

​@@chiquita683"succeeding" they rose and fell within a single lifetime. They failed to end the Jedi, they failed to stop the rebels, they failed to finish corrupting the Chosen one, they spent a thousand years of planning for twenty years of empire.

[@datdarnotaku001]

@@bookingitwithwill402 indeed but like always there must be balance in the force so the force allowed the few Jedi to remain so as to eventually bring the Baneite sith down.

[@zidniafifamani2378]

Darth Plaugeis : WPE Ellis "SirPirckleton" Shale.

[@spiritobsessedchild9938]

The best version of the Sith is with Darth Revan. He combined the Rule of Two with the Sith Empire to create something that could be stopped only by another Sith. Had Malak done nothing, Revan likely would have defeated the Jedi strike team sent after him and gone on to destroy the Republic thousands of years before the Battle of Yavin.

[@zedbruh7212]

Interesting Im not sure Revan followed the rule of two I think he took an apprentice based on his jedi upbringing Revan was before bane You visit korriban in the game and the sith there clearly do not follow the rule

[@judgedrekk2981]

Darth Bane founded the rule of two based on reven's holocron....reven also the canon story was he returned to the jedi after being reporgrammed and his memories returned he chose the jedi and so his rule of two idea had to wait for another to adopt it....

[@zedbruh7212]

@@judgedrekk2981 ye I beat kotor 1 and 2 a dozen times each

[@anandhushaji1298]

I always thought that he was talking about each individual Sith Lords not training more than one apprentice. Since there were many of them at the time of Revan. Bane was inspired by what Revan had said, but he elevated it the next level, which is the Rule of 2.

[@gregphillipsel9906]

Agreed

[@cptkrank6802]

The ancient Sith didn't suck at math. If you have only two Sith who constantly struggle for dominance, the likelihood of those two Sith killing each other at the same time was extremely high. So your Sith order ends with a single duel, or just some accident.

[@johnwinchesterp2963]

That actually makes a lot of sense. If the sith will always fight only two sith fighting could potentially end the order even by accident.

[@jkranites]

Speaking of Math.... See, normally if you go one on one with another Sith you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But Sidious wasn't normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beating him. Then you add Marka Ragnos to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. See the 3 way at Sacrifice, you got a 33 1/3 chance of winning, but I, I got a 66 and 2/3 chance of winning, because Marka Ragnos KNOWS he can't beat me and he's not even gonna try! So the Ancient Sith Lords, can take their 33 1/3 chance, minus Sidious's 25% chance and you got an 8 1/3 chance of winning at Sacrifice. But then you take Sidious's 75% chance of winning, if they had to go one on one, and then add 66 2/3 per cents, I got 141 2/3 chance of winning at Sacrifice. See Stupendous, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for The Ancient Sith at Sacrifice.

[@AlsoBurgerNation]

Ego wouldn't let them see that. An accident taking out not one but both Sith would be unthinkable to them.

[@kevin9989]

No. You're forgetting about the Will of the Force. It makes sense for dark siders to be only two at a given time if you assume the Force itself will preserve one of them to carry on.

[@cptkrank6802]

@@kevin9989 There will always be dark side force users, never mind the Sith. Heck, random Jedi fall to the dark side every so often, and IIRC that's how the Sith got started way back when.

[@odd-eyes6363]

Darth Bane's rule of two is so stupid conceptually. It was pure luck if not a miracle that the Rule of 2 wasn't either abandoned or caused the extinction of the order without ever engaging the Jedi. In the Rule of Two all it takes in one accident or a single bad Sith to completely disrupt the Sith Order forever. If there were multiple "clans" in the Rule of 2 it would at least make sense since there would be at least some safety in the continuation of the order

[@mariusconstantin6057]

Hence, probably why Darth Mommin called them Jedi-obsessed weaklings.

[@highinquisitorvanwiller8904]

Jedi tend to fall to the dark side and more often than not have access to the holocrons of the days of old, becoming new sith.

[@Itiswhatitis90]

A rule of 2 Sith almost ruined the whole thing, and lost the ability for Sith to switch bodies. Something Sidious was obsessed with but by the time he became the master it was a practice long lost. The rule of 2 a double edged sword.

[@Goblynn-s5l]

Bane’s reasoning was solid. Constantly weak students conspired against a single master & this means over time the sith weaken & degrade. He saw that degradation in the sith ALONG WITH wasted energy by infighting. the master is supposed to always choose someone with the potential to surpass them & COULD ONLY surpass them if they were superior. Palpatine was weak by comparison, always undercutting & keeping apprentices weak

[@midgetydeath]

Or one Sith like Sidious. Someone who would purposefully set up his apprentice to have his potential crippled or do it himself to ensure he couldn't be killed. If Sidious didn't get his plan in action when he did or if he wasn't able to go forward with it at all, there would have not been a next generation of Sith. He would have taken the Sith to his grave rather than raise someone to kill him.

[@GGBlaster]

Both ways had their drawbacks. What might’ve been an interesting approach would’ve been for Sidious to end the Rule of Two after finishing the grand plan, and starting up a dedicated Sith Order. He partially did with the inquisitorius, but not in whole.

[@midgetydeath]

IIRC, he did intend to end the Rule of Two. He just didn't really have enough time to get his intended Sith Order going properly before he died. What with establishing an Empire and all the other work he had to deal with.

[@AnonTDegenerate]

tbf he was planning that, creating an order of acolytes since he grew sick of his own empire. It was that conceit and halting of the rule of 2 that ruined it all imo.

[@noHarmony1]

The ancient Sith may claim to be better because they were purer wielders of the dark side and conquering big parts of the galaxy. The rule of two Sith may claim to be better because instead of always acting on impulse they stopped the self destructive infighting and actually took their time to accomplish their goal. But the former can only shun the latter only from a dusty graveyard planet as echoes of their former glory while it took the latter only one egotistical Sith like Palpatine to have their whole plan fail in the end. Of course its fun to discuss which Sith were actually smarter or more devoted to the dark side. But in the end, the Sith always lose, because they are egotistical idiots. Its in their nature.

[@JTMUSICCHANNEL]

The sith lose because they are the bad guys and have too. If the world was written more akin to how ppl really react and respond to things the Sith wipe out the jedi long before Palpatine fall out his dad's nuts

[@midgetydeath]

The Sith don't care if they lose, though. They want to show their strength. If they lose, then they lose fighting for what they want. It's not about winning, it's about going the mile to get what you want.

[@daniels7907]

Ironically, Marka Ragnos created an early version of the Rule of Two by declaring Exar Kun to be the Master and Ulic Qel Droma the Apprentice. But he never actually forbade them to increase their numbers beyond that. Even so, the two of them (more so Exar Kun) were such a threat that the entire Jedi Order, which was also more powerful back then, had to rally to stop them.

[@midgetydeath]

It says a lot that the Sith until the Bane line respected Marka Ragnos so much that they obeyed his freaking ghost as if he was still the boss.

[@sydneyg2235]

The sith of the old republic are warrior's they saw the rule of two as cowards

[@k3556io]

Their brute force didn't really work, the new sith are simply smarter

[@jmgonzales7701]

@@k3556io the old sith litterally lasted longer than the new sith empire which only lasted for 30

[@VicentePablos]

@@jmgonzales7701they never wiped out the Jedi took the whole Galaxy like palpatine

[@aster4jaden]

I prefer Tenebrae's Sith Order, I love the Dark Council.

[@1qplayer626]

Yeah tenebrae the goat ❤

[@flamerollerx01]

Yeah the extended universe is miles above the "cannon" of the prequel movies, original trilogy and abomination that is the disney sequel trilogy.

[@j_official4138]

yeh sith army vs jedi army is cooler then sith vs jedi 1v1

[@midgetydeath]

@@flamerollerx01 Yet, so different they honestly should be considered alternate universes separate from each other. There is no way in Hell that the Old Republic led to the movies.

[@Shadow200001]

I think the Ancient Sith understood that the Rule of Two was also an issue. Even though they were Darkside in Origin, they were still part of the cosmic force. And When you have two people, only two people, growing stronger where each one grew stronger than the last, this presented an issue, it was an unbalancing of the force. I am sure that the ancient Sith Lords did indeed see the rule of two sith as unworthy for hiding in the shadows. But, The Sith Order would grow and did grow to the point where they unbalanced the force as much as the Jedi.

[@7ElevenTruther]

The sheer ego of the ancient sith was so all-consuming that they just had no capacity to appreciate a higher 'sith' cause like the rule of two. It probably wouldn't even matter to them whatsoever that sith civilization is barely more than a faint whisper slipping beyond the bounds of recorded history into myths and legends by the time of the trilogy era.

[@klaykid117]

Exactly this. I really hate how a lot of Star wars KZbinrs always portray the dark side as like a separate force that force users can tap into. It is the force! It is literally called the dark side of the force!! It's always weird how a lot of writers treat it. Having emotions is a part of life and when you try and go full Vulcan like Ki-Adi-Mundy You get an emotionless monster that has the potential to be worse than any sith through peer calculus

[@Shadow200001]

@@klaykid117 The Dark Side and Light Side are two parts of a WHOLE, you can't have one without the other. As a Whole the Jedi are always the better option, yes to do get people like Vrook Lamar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai El, who are very much "No, we will do what we have done and wait." Jedi who have lost touch with what it means to be Jedi and Serve the public. But then you have Jedi Like Qui-Gon, Anakin, and Obi-Wan (to an extent). I always saw Obi-Wan as a Good Jedi, While he would take action. He just wanted to make sure he had all the important facts to make sure it was the right one. As opposed to Anakin who would jump into a Rancor pit to save a Child, only to find out the Rancors are gentle to the child, and he has managed to piss them off.

[@ziephel-6780]

@@klaykid117 Star Wars had evolved beyond Lucas' vision.

[@immortalfrieza]

@@ziephel-6780 The sad thing is, Star Wars never was Lucas' vision. The guy barely had anything do with the creation of Star Wars yet got all the credit.

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

The spirit of the legendary marka ragnos, didn't deemed sidious and plagueis worthy of his time. But he chooses tenebrae and exar kun as true sith lords from his lineage, that's how powerful exar kun snd tenebrae were.

[@1qplayer626]

Yeah both wete true sith who doomed the republic

[@midgetydeath]

It's not just power. Being Sith isn't just about being powerful and using the Dark Side. There is an entire set of philosophies and cultural aspects involved. Just like being a great warrior doesn't make you a Mandalorian.

[@peterz395]

@@1qplayer626 Is this written down in some books or comics? I have no clue who those people are tbh.

[@1qplayer626]

@@peterz395 you dont know Tenebrae/vitiate/valkorion the sith emperor? He turned revan to the dark side. Play kotor and swtor and you will understand. Exar kun is from a comic series tales of the jedi.

[@peterz395]

@@1qplayer626 ah ok, that was all from the old canon called legends now right? Def the comic is.

[@TherealKRG-d7p]

It’s a double edged sword if you really think about it. The Ancient Sith created powerful warriors (in terms of fighting prowess) and Force Users (in terms of artifacts and power) however they lacked in other areas. For example in the old republic era there was no careful planning within many of the empire ranks. They mainly tried to bulldoze their way through the Jedi which they did time and again but just when they win they end up turning on each other causing themselves to start back to square one. Closest we see careful planning is in Revan and Vitiate Sith Empire. Both were the most powerful Sith Empires of all time. As for the Rule of Two Sith they had to do things different instead of the Sith fighting in open War they needed to build their resources and remain patience in order to outsmart the Jedi and nearly wipe them out. Unfortunately when they finally won they didn’t know how to rule the galaxy. This is evident due to the fact that the grand plan took 1000 years but only lasted for about 25 years (which is kind of sad when you really think about it) People say the Jedi grew weaker during the Prequels arguably so did the Sith. Although it was necessary for the Sith to do things differently their ideology invites competition and domination over others even those within their own ranks. Although the rule of two worked in the end the they achieved power through their wealth and political position and not the dark side of the force itself that they ultimately failed in the end. Similarly to how the Jedi strayed from the will of the force.

[@alcozar5905]

Totally agree with ancient Sith, but the continual infighting took the Sith down the same repetitive road literally for thousand of years. The Jedi were know better their STIFF beliefs lead to the same repetitive behavior. Twins with similar behavior repeatedly failing.

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

What are you talking about? Sith were defeated multiple times, confined to a small part of the galaxy to kill each other by infighting. While Jedi shaped and in many ways, governed the near-galaxy-wide Republic with their principles, working in harmonious and symbiotic relationship. They were not slaughtering each other wholesale, and Galaxy had mostly positive image about them. To the extent that Republic and Jedi were seen as the same thing. Jedi had 1000 years of uninterrupted success and harmony. Sith hit their face against the same wall for well over 1000 years before Bane realised something had to be done.

[@zico739]

This is a stupid take. The Jedi spent tens of thousands of years winning and leading the way.

[@granatmof]

The ancient Sith were diffeated and lived as castaway kings on a petty world for like 14000 years. They connect with the Republic, and are immediately defeated, except for a single survivor, who dies alone on a different empty world. The Sith are completely defeated for like a thousand years until some bored rich kids decide to get into the occult and get into some relics. Those Sith are likewise defeated quickly. The. You have Revan, who is victorious as a Jedi over the Mandalorians, and was defeated as a Sith. Then 300 years later the Sith attack again from the hidden infinite empire... And are defeated. Skipping forward you have the New Sith Wars, which are perpetuated by different Jedi falling to the Dark side. The wars perpetuate for like 1500 years, until the battle of Ruusan, where the Jedi are victorious, and Bane decides the wars are unwinnable and institutes the Rule of Two, taking a kid as a Padawan. Centuries later, Palpatine gains power through political machinations, not Sith conquest. He gives up his politics scheming and lives as Emperor for like 22 years when he's defeated by a Jedi Padawan and his Father undergoing his trial to become a Knight. He survives like a spiritual cockroach and is again defeated by a Jedi who's still early in he training. The Jedi in all that time are truer to their vision across all those millenia than the Sith, who always compromise. Sure the Jedi are prone to disfunction and infighting resulting in lack of action, but that's divergence if how to best fulfill their ideals. The Sith are ultimately a cancer in the galaxy, and the Force will always excise them when their tumor becomes malignant.

[@NeoAmon678]

The Sith always defeated themelves everytime the would win the shoot themselves in the foot great hyperspacewar student kills master battle Meditation causing invasion Forces to collapse malak shoots revan down causing the Events of kotor... The jedi never defeated the Sith they did just hold out till they stopped themselves @@granatmof

[@immortalfrieza]

Yep. The Sith could've just... dropped the whole "infighting" part of their doctrine at any time, but they actually thought their "master and apprentices kill each other" doctrine would make them stronger despite the fact that same doctrine had directly caused the Sith to fail to win against the Jedi and the Republic dozens of times. The Sith actually came very close to taking over the Republic and destroying the Jedi multiple times, but inevitably their infighting would cause them to lose. All the Jedi and Republic ever really had to do whenever the Sith got enough forces to attack was was play defense until the Sith inevitably self destructed. Meanwhile, the Jedi became more and more dogmatic and ridged over the millennia. They only recruited infants so every member grew up under Jedi teachings. This made it nearly impossible for Jedi to actually even conceive of the idea that their teaching could be wrong, and even if they did, they had little frame of reference to make any significant changes. The Jedi also became completely obsessed with keeping the Republic going instead of actually fixing it's problems, hence the Republic's eventual decline into corruption and decadence. All the "Rule of Two" Sith really had to do was take advantage of how the Jedi's teachings made them think and the corruption of the Republic to destroy the Jedi from within.

[@HatsStayUnited]

I like to imagine Trying to talk to ancient sith is like going into an MW2 Game chat Where everyone is shit talking each other XD

[@MyrmThaBadMan]

It rather simple and straight forward I feel. The creation of the Banite rule of two resulted in the eradication of the Sith Empires of old and the Sith as both Species and as a Religion, and still was far from the amrk of eradicating the Jedi, rather it strengthened the Jedi and created a mroe powerful Order since it had degraded so much in the thousand years of peace. The Sith Empires of old always fell to infighting right before eradicating both the Republic and the Jedi Order numerous times but they always survived in great enough numbers to rebuild time and time again. That proves the utter failure of the rule of two and how its creation was the certain doom of the Siths future and survival. Neither the old or rule of two Sith could destroy the Jedi but history shows that Sith of Old was closer more times then the Rule of two Sith even with a thousands years of planning with perfect execution and still could not come close to ending the Jedi. I rather think the Rule of Two was Sithari Revans great plan to destroy the Sith once and for all. A perfect execution to create a holocron for a dumb enough Sith like Bane to believe its the only choice and doom his people.

[@1qplayer626]

True. Revan hated the sith

[@Josh-ye9ol]

This makes a degree lf sence. The first time ravan went to the temple were this holocron was found he was on a mission to find his weapon of choice. When would he have had time to contemplate sith ways and wright a whole holocron of philosophic and practical knowledge. When he returned he was a jedi with half a memory of who/what he was. His 3rd trip to the unknowns was with the intent to find and disrupt/face down the sith in the dark. When he had time to make plans and act on them instead of reacting to galatic events.

[@zedbruh7212]

Amazing analysis...but I wouldn't say it was straight forward. 😆 Love the idea that the rule of two was revans plan to destroy the sith . Also the difference between the sith as a species and religion is an awesome detail

[@Faude18]

@@vominomi it also ended the republic and the order of the jedi. Rule of Two won, even if only for 23 or so years.

[@mizu7662]

I think its a bit unfair to say they didn't come close, but you are right about how the Rule of 2 meant that after they were beat there were no survivors to carry the sith forward like in the old days where even after a devastating defeat they were able to get enough survivors out to rebuild for the next round. Now there will be no next round for the sith.

[@ragnarshadow]

Ancient sith are right, the rule of 2 only "succeeded" because of politics. No true sithy powers where used to conquer just manipulation and politics to set an army upon the jedi then rule, anyone with the political power and desire to do so could have pulled it off. If bane never came along they could have held on to those millions of ancient secrets long lost and sharpened the blade of the sith when fighting each other and the jedi, but after 1k years darth wrinkles was at best just below the power level of an ancient sith. random thought after reading the other comments... rule of 2 did not stop the infighting it was just between master and puppet and by a different name, you can call an apple an orange but it is still an apple.

[@ninjalectualx]

The sith's right-wing politics were their most evil and most effective tool

[@oddmanout8692]

I wouldn't say the Rule of Two saved the Sith. It's creator Darth Bane intentionally wiped it out. We'll never know how Lord Kaans Brotherhood would have fared and the spirits probably would have liked Dark Krayt.

[@shadowbeast2276]

It's reasonable to say kaans brotherhood might have succeeded to a degree. But eventually they would probably turn on each other.

[@oddmanout8692]

@@shadowbeast2276 Good assumption.

[@raggarbergman]

Didn't the spirits mock Krayt as he got consumed by his armor?

[@jayd5541]

​@@raggarbergman they *made* his armor consume him.

[@midgetydeath]

Kaan had basically gotten the Sith in general to work together not only towards a common goal but also with mutual respect and acceptance of each other and that moving through the ranks doesn't mean you have to weaken the Sith by butchering each other and to not undermine the Sith and each other in pursuit of power but stand up and prove your strength. What he created was very similar to what the Sith Empire was like under Marka Ragnos and his Rule of the Strong is peak Sith philosophy.

[@jumangi2322]

Man this is good! Much appreciated for posting this.

[@DarthMirasshtar]

can only imagine how disappointed Tulak Hord's spirit must be.

[@gundamnit3594]

Bruh the diablo 2R box art at the end 🤣

[@MV1890HHT]

Darth Bane laid out why the old ways were flawed and why they failed. Under the old ways, several weak Sith could join forces to take down a powerful Sith; master, then in-fighting among those weaker Sith would eventually result in one becoming the new master, but that new master wouldn't be as powerful as the Sith master they collectively took down. This made the Sith, as a whole, weaker. Not only by having a successively unproven, untested, Sith in power, but through the loss of teachings that had yet to be passed down through a prematurely dispatched master. By having one powerful master who embodied all the power and knowledge of the Sith, and a single apprentice who then strives to learn from that master until the day they become powerful enough to defeat that master, thereby becoming the new master, they themself become more powerful than the masters before them. This process creates an ever-strengthening lineage of Sith.

[@midgetydeath]

It was not Bane who claimed that. It was Revan's holocron. Revan who intended to destroy the Sith even when he was a Sith. Name a time when what you say was ever true. It wasn't. Ever. Sith did not kill their masters. They had no reason to. They completed their training and went on their way. Sith would kill each other for positions of authority, but only one could hold those and the apprentices wouldn't gang up on the one holding it for their position. We're not told why they didn't, but logically doing so would show unacceptable weakness and the other Sith would destroy them for it, so that's probably why. In other words, Revan's holocron _lied_ to trick Bane into destroying the Sith. Which is what Revan devoted his life to. Duh.

[@Apeironization1]

Well, it is obviously wrong to call the old ways weak. Since ancient Sith were at least as equally powerful as Palpatine (Legends) or even more powerful than him.

[@spideylover4105]

Finally someone gets it

[@aliastheabnormal]

Marka Ragnos: I think all of you noobs suck and i will show you that. Palpatine: I won.

[@davidmartin5696]

Still Palpatine: until I lost everything with nothing setup to follow me.

[@midgetydeath]

For like, ten minutes and with no future for the Sith. Of course, Marka Ragnos was a bit of an oddball himself in that he clearly cared about the Sith more than he cared about his own power. Or perhaps was smart enough to realize their power contributed to his power. He seems, even death from his few appearances, to see the glory of the Sith as his own.

[@austinray3554]

Seems to be a case of brain vs brawn

[@kingatlanofatlantis3075]

The rule of two made the Sith Obsessed, arrogant and weak. Peace, ignorance and arrogance made the Jedi weak

[@ATalesTruth-]

You could say the hype wasn’t real

[@midgetydeath]

Not peace, paranoia. The Jedi locked away their powerful techniques and knowledge. It's implied those use emotions and the post-Ruusan Reformation Jedi were utterly paranoid about the Dark Side and emotions can, if you are a weak-minded man-child who hyper fixates on his feelings and desires, become a path towards the Dark Side. This idiotic paranoia is also why they implemented Atris's incredibly foolish reforms millennia earlier in Revan's time.

[@ContinuePlayMag]

Don't forget that theu became complacement, were total control freaks, and it's utterly unnatural to suppress emotions. Technically, the best method is to master BOTH sides of the force, using each in balance rather than rejecting one side. That's why the Force created Anakin in the first place - the Light side was way too prevalent, throwong the force, and by extension all existence - into total disarray. It's why you endednup with things like the hyperspace disaster. The universe was starting to tear itself apart.

[@grilledleeks6514]

@@ContinuePlayMag what's the hyperspace disaster

[@radfarlander]

How did the Sith figure out a version of Force ghosts millennia before the Jedi?

[@Welther47]

The ancients a most likely deified and their power exaggerated. It's a typical think we do, think of our elders as better. I think the ancients were mostly jealous of Sidious, and hated that their preferred tactics failed to do what he did.

[@Omnipulsar]

the thought of palpatine being the one to finally execute the sith grand plan and succeed only to get dogged on by ghosts is hilarious

[@fantasymangacomicvisionary5688]

This is why I like True Sith Lords and True Jedi Knights because everyone in between are irrelevant and don't stand on anything. True Sith Lords are Selfish, Power Hungry and believe in Survival Of The Fittest Ideology. Meaning only the strongest 2 should be Sith and they both should individually want to be the strongest period. Sith also believes to only teach their Apprentice enough to be a True Sith, that they individually have to come up with their own Darkside Unique Abilities and respect the game of your Apprentice wanting to kill you to be the Fittest and the Master trying to upgrade their Apprentice if someone more powerful come along. The True Jedi Knights are Selfless, Fearless and believes in the Greater Good Ideology. Meaning you sacrifice everything for the benefit of the majority. Jedi Masters believe they should teach everything and give all their knowledge they have to their Apprentice and to the Jedi Order. While Padawans believes they should look at their Master as almost a Father or Mother figure. Then you have the Failed Fake Fallen Jedi Knights and Mr. Softy Sith who all over the place

[@fantasymangacomicvisionary5688]

@@FarisZato The Rule Of 2 was successful and prevented the Failed Backstabbing Sith Culture from going totally extinct. You can't have a bunch of Selfish Egomaniacs in the Sith turning on each other every minute of the day fighting against a Organization Selfless Group and Illogically believing you could defeat them overall (Moronic). So the Sith within the Shadows using being Covert, Deception, Manipulation, Misdirection and Politic under a Survival Of The Fittest belief of only 2 fits them way better going up against a Organize Honorable Selfless Group that's in the Light. Plus only having 2 Sith truly using the Darkside made those 2 more powerful than any Sith. So I dont know what this Asspuller is talking about. The Old Sith was just more able to pass down knowledge of the Darkside among each other like the Jedi Knights with the Lightside.

[@stewjonjedi]

This is a great video and answered things I often wondered about.

[@dan240393]

The Rule of Two applies a structure based on machination, secrecy and self-control. All for the sake of obsessively trying to destroy the Jedi. It violates the most basic tenets of Sith ideology. Excess, passion, freedom through strength. The whole concept is to seek power, because you only have as much freedom as you can take. The Two'ers willingly give up their freedom, to those weaker, for no direct gain to themselves. You honestly couldn't find two more opposed views.

[@jsmitty2047]

I always believed the rule of two is stupid. Yes the sith will always seek power and ultimate rule and power, however a group of Sith, like that that was led by Darth Malgus was something utterly terrifying.

[@joimumu]

Both Vader and Palpatine broke the rule of 2 so they agree the rule is stupid

[@WanderingWendigo]

Darth Krayt did it right tbh

[@dreadrath]

Man, everybody hated Plagueis, the jedi, the old sith, his own apprentice Sidious hated him, as did Plagueis' master at the end of his life due to Plagueis being reckless in killing him. Oh that's right, even the force itself, dark side and light hated him for trying to enslave it to his will, heck the dark side itself basically commanded Sidious to slay him. Man, Plagueis may well be the most hated Sith ever in-universe. Then again its no surprise since Plagueis only ever played by his own rules.

[@shutup3338]

"Pathetic losers" kind of feels like a callout to those sith ngl

[@iiDTC]

Plageuis and Tenebrous already were planning to end the rule of two.

[@MrChristophSteininge]

It depends what you think a Sith is. Hey it is not even clear what a Jedi is. Are they protectors, helpers, advisors, diplomats or all of that? You can be that with no magical powers at all. Using the force as a source of power sets them apart. When Palpy cries out triumphantly that he now has "unlimited power" he does not mean power through the force, but civilian power exercised via the administration and the military forces. A sith of old would set himself up as a tyrant, ruling with an iron fist, using his power of personality and the force and gloried in it and that. All that intrigue and moving from the shadows could also have been accomplished by a skilful politician with a plan, no need to be a sith lord. And without a successor (apprentice) it just fell flat, a mere episode in the history of a republic by then already over 20.000 years old.

[@RazSofer-xh3qs]

The Ancient Sith respects outright violence as they see fighting directly is honorable. The “modern” Sith uses long term planning and stealthy manipulation to destroy their enemies within that compromised the “survival for the fittest view” of the Ancient Sith

[@midgetydeath]

Not honorable so much as proof of strength. They'll use cunning and subterfuge and the like in politics and war, but when it comes to taking a position of power or anything else involving the rule of the strong, it is all about showing strength.

[@COACHWARBLE]

Why doesn’t anyone realize how pathetic the with were. Follow me please. Sith spent 1000 years planning to run the galaxy for 27 years. Looks like the Jedi were living large in temples with star ships for 973 years in this conflict. Think about it

[@thatpunkcatte]

Well Vitiate would turn Sidious into paste without even lifting a finger, goes to show how successful the rule of two was at making a powerful sith.

[@dadsback69]

Palpatine in his prime is supposed to be the strongest sith ever vitiate is just an example of how stupid legends power creep can be

[@Kalf97]

lol is supposed to be but he isn't. Vitiate would wreck sidious XD. Also it could technically still apply that sidious its the strongest sith. because valkorion did not consider himself a sith near the end. (he was more of a force entity). And if one doesn't consider themselves a lord of the sith I don't think they are one since that aspect is more of a religious' belief. @@dadsback69

[@sudafedup]

Not canon. Unfortunately.

[@davidmartin5696]

What not coffee girl gofur or foloni boloni "canon"? Canon is what us real Star Wars fans believe it is and are willing to put our energy in not whatever corp slop they try to say it is.@@sudafedup

[@sudafedup]

@@davidmartin5696 What's a real fan, though? Back in the day it was "Only the OT, anyone who likes the prequels aren't real fans."

[@seanagnew6281]

Really good video mate

[@ericramirez2608]

Why was Palpatine a loser? A THOUSAND year plan to conquer the republic, kill the jedi, and rule the galaxy. His empire lasted only THIRTY years where the jedi returned, the republic returned, and the sith will never rule again. Palpatine is a skrew up. 🤣

[@matiasluukkanen7718]

Hmm, not to defend the sequels but Palpatine outlived his enemies and managed to possess Rey (strike me down in anger, and I will possess you).

[@headstrongbachelor3152]

Palpatine was the ultimative victor. He succeeded where all the other Sith failed. None of them manage to bind the entire galaxy to their will like he did. He became the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

[@Sumschmuck]

​@@matiasluukkanen7718the sequels aren't canon, so it doesn't work

[@billyherrington5112]

I legenda they return

[@granatmof]

​@@matiasluukkanen7718Palpatine was a cockroach. Not an emperor.

[@jumangi2322]

This also explains more why he was so interested in malgus to.

[@Jason-jo3te]

I may be wrong, but I believe Andedu's spirit resided in his holocron, at least that is my understanding of the lore. So that would be a spirit that Bane interacted with.

[@Daron7181]

I Imagine the Sith spirits going HAM on Sidious just as ruthlessly as when he wrecked Darth Maul and Savage Oppress.

[@galacticfirefly6060]

😂 I can imagine after the Rise of Skywalker, in the Sith Netherworld: Palpatine: ahh, my predecessors. It is an honor to finally meet you all. Ancient sith: *cracks fists* what did you just say back there? "I am all the Sith?" Who do you think you are?! Palpatine: I... I thought I fought in name of all of you. Ancient Sith: Rule of two sith are Heretics! Shut up fool! 😂😅

[@TheThelordofdread]

Bane accessed Andeddu’s holocron which did contain his spirit.

[@zedbruh7212]

hmm idk about rule of 2 sith making sacrifices for a greater plan at the expense of personal power seems to me the old sith were the ones sacrificing their individual power to uplift the sith as a whole what i picked up at the academy on korriban was that each sith selfishly seeking power ultimately empowered the sith as a whole but also cause infighting I dont think either is superiour both were needed to survive their respective age

[@mxyzptlk1616]

The ancient sith were closer to witches. Making pacts, doing rituals, making sacrifices, etc. Theirs was more of a relationship with the force, albeit a tumultuous one. The Rule of 2 eventually performed a lobotomy on the force. Plagueis took it so far as to wield the force against it's own will. The ancient spirits would've been repulsed by and perhaps even slightly fearful of Plagueis. He could've had some Ghostbusters maxichlorian attack.

[@colemanrobbins6788]

The ancient just because they could operate in the open. You have to have greater power to operate that way. The rule of two had to constantly hide. You hide if your vulnerability won’t allow you operate openly.

[@gothic574]

seing how Dath Bane singlehandedly killed not only all sith from his time but also a massive amount of jedi rule of 2 it is.

[@allanpatterson6741]

Imagine you're at where you at because you fought and learned stuff others couldn't achieve and you were respected for it by others Vs You and one other person don't have any competition and the closest thing to competition is avoided and you have to manipulate others to achieve victory. There's a different mentality that has to be achieved silently with manipulation in contrast to competition between sith vs sith & sith vs Jedi.

[@djluminol]

As sith lord you'd thing Plagueis could afford to go to a dentist once in a while.

[@tonymengela3575]

I had a though, What if their were other Sith lords out there also following rule of two but stay completely in the shadows faking who they are as well? Just saying, it could bring Sith Jar Jar back into cannon or a new fan story all together along with possibly Yoda had trained in the Dark side by one of those in the past. Just saying it would make a fascinating fan theory to develop along with fan short stories. You are an amazing story teller and I feel Star Wars way better like it is meant to be. We need someone like you to bring this to life either live action or animation. It would be the best star wars to date!

[@Jedapoo]

What fool said Darth Jar Jar isn't canon?!? Lol, with Sith arrogance I can't help but feel that there almost has to be another set of Sith or ten thinking they're doing it better.

[@Josh-ye9ol]

The plaguse noval admits their are other sith orders alive and well out in the galaxy. They are looked down on, and are though by the banite sith to have not have accomplish much, but they are out their. And honestly what trillionaire conservative cultists have ever looked at others and been like, ya thems my equals.

[@Sunstar808]

Great original theory provoking video.

[@darycknagel5757]

I would like to articulate a compromising view point. I feel that both in their own right are powerful and deserve the respect of their respective eras. The sith of old vied for power for the sake of power ruthlessly and maliciously leading to some of the biggest advancements in the dark side of the force. Whereas the Rule of Two sith took that knowledge and found more subtle ways to manipulate the darkside and further unlock their powers to their absolute peak in Palpatine. Without one the other can not exist and without Palpatine a true empire was never formed.

[@O5MaxWell_King97]

OMG The Stupedndous Wave KZbin CHANNEL IS A SITH CONFIRMED 😱😱😱😱😱😱

[@fabiocosta3830]

The biggest problem of the rule of two is that by the pupil raising to master, and as result be stronger than their master ever was, there wil be a point there wil be no pupil to continue the vicious cycle of backstabbing promotion. And the sith never learned the true secret to immortality, only how to transfer the soul to a new host. So even with all the physique and experience, the sith lord would have to relearn the limits of the new host every single time. And that, would handicap the sith.

[@randomsmall-governmentguy2221]

Both philosophies are ultimately flawed. Both philosophies stem from individuals who are entirely selfish and self-absorbed. That is no path to true lasting wisdom nor power, which is ironically what the Sith desired for the most. If you force me to choose the least flawed among these two ideologies, I’d choose the Rule of Two above the philosophy of the ancient Siths. The Rule of Two at least had some semblance of humility and sacrifice, whereas the Ancient Sith were just drunk on power. The rule of two may have worked in the long term if Sidious had stuck to it, instead of getting drunk on his own power and established the rule of one. And that is the problem with the dark side. Its selfishness always deals in self-destruction. And my claim is that the reason why the rule of two was successful in destroying the Jedi is because it was wise enough to incorporate humility and sacrifice, which are actions most closely associated with the light side.

[@donovanbradford8231]

I think you hit the nail on the head the Rule of Two era Sith while having power to their own ends weren't warriors who faced their enemies head on and didn't scheme or hide in the shadows waiting for the right moment to strike. If I were to compare ancient to a warrior race it would be Samurai, Spartans, or even Vikings, mean they want conflict and a fight head on. If I were to compare the Rule of Two Sith it would be to Ninjas while talented fights they always strike when it suits them. Overall the only two Sith from this era the Ancient Sith would respect ir talk to world be Darth Vader for sure as he was a true warrior and Sith and maybe Darth Maul for the same reason, with Maul he may have given too much attention to the Jedi, but he was still a great warrior.

[@CyrodiilCome]

Ancient sith had to rise above dozens of hundreds of sith. Rule of two had to rise above 1

[@Dark_Lord_Mr_B]

I would argue the rule of two was more powerful in the sense that they actually used subtlety over brute force while the old sith order were more powerful in regards to their numbers and methods used to wipe out their enemies.

[@WilliamBraswell-es6pp]

For those who don’t know, it is an honor to be almost killed by the ancient sith. It means that they considered you a rival

[@brockdavid]

Because, they were heretics who couldn’t compete with the prowess of true competition, and rivalries of the Sith. Instead the Rule of Two Sith were sneakier, and more prone to being manipulative schemers instead of warriors. And, ‘Sith’ like Plagueis and Tenebrous didn’t truly believe in The Force, and were more akin to scientists, instead of as ‘spiritual’ as other Force Users.

[@cdr1179]

It's a simple matter of numbers. Even though infighting will inevitably occur, it can only last for so long and there will always be enough people left to rebuild and I personally like the idea of the sith being warriors and conquers for the dark side. Edit: all things being fare Lucas himself said that Palpatine and Vader were the the strongest sith in star wars history and even before the Disney buy out, swtor still wasn't technically cannon.

[@ukaszdomin7469]

Antient Siths are like Onaga brute strenght, power conquer. Rule of two are like Shinnok and Shao Kahn Deception first to gain power.

[@Thelastday__]

I only believe that the rule of 2 is for losers if there’s a master in his prime also training another sith, like, you have faith in the dark side and devote yourself to it, you need nothing more right? That’s what you believe.

[@apollyonkatastrefia1586]

Vader reached out to Darth Mommon, mot intentionally but still.

[@daveroe4961]

And yet the same spirits mocked Krayt's attempt at creating a unified, autocratically led Sith Order. There's just no pleasing some people.

[@keybladerzero655]

11:48 Is that the Diablo II cover art?

[@granatmof]

The Sith weren't Victorious. A single Jedi came back and defeated the Sith...twice Every time the Sith rise up, they're defeated. They're perennial losers.

[@andreasschaeflein4233]

Both have flaws. The ancient sith had constant in fighting and made themselves weak as Darth Bane stated the dark side is like venom the more tubes the less deadly with one tube its potent. However, Bane's rule of two also had the issue of in fighting as well as the danger of their apprentice, possibly turning to the light.

[@mkb4560]

Palpatine didn't really follow the rule of two he always had multiple apprentices of dark side users

[@emetanti]

Man was treating the Rule of Two alike to someone cheatings on his tax return. "As you can see the Rule of Two was CLEARLY upheld, we didn´t give the swarm of Inquisitors with red lightsabers and force sensitivity Darth titles, theyre unpaid Dark Side Interns."

[@ltarteaga]

If I was in charge of the sith, I would abolish the rule of two to strengthen our numbers.

[@forexed8948]

Although the Ancient Sith order was always trapped in circles of self destructive infighting, there were always plenty of sith left to fill the power vaccuum and keep order sas they knew it. With the Rule Of 2, there were only ever just a mere 2 sith at any given time and so there was always a huge risk that these 2 sith would off one another at the same time and leave the sith in the waste bin of history rather then preserved in honored glory for millenia to come. The Ancient Sith order was superior as it was in place to rule over an empire, whereas the rule of 2 was superior in that it was designed as a weapon of conquest, and at the time of Bane, the countless Darths all had multiple apprentices in a belief of survival of the fittest or something akin to it. Plus the Jedi were always wary of any sith they encountered because they knew of the Rule Of 2, as seen in the Phantom Menace, "But which was slain, the master, or the apprentice".

[@johanhalvarsson2148]

Blizzards diablo at the end? Or was that another ancient sith I don't know about?

[@lordofpain3476]

I am a big fan of Big daddy Palpy's . But he was a mere learner compared to our ancient brothers and sisters . The ancients were far superior .

[@nathanieljohnson5414]

So…did THEY ever rule the entire galaxy? Yeah didn’t think so☺️

[@Hartzilla2007]

Well can't disagree with the old lords dislike of hyper focusing on the Jedi since the Sith golden Age when they ruled an Empire for centuries was when they weren't bothering with the Jedi but the moment they pick a fight with them it all came crashing down.

[@jumangi2322]

Did Darth Vectivus ever visit Korriban?

[@Wade-1]

Whichever version maintained power for the longest period of time.

[@jlion2439]

This would explain why Madelorians got alone so well with the Sith. Both groups wanted this victories and triumphs to be on display for all to see, not like a wolf hidden amongst sheep.

[@Wardemonxi]

My assumption is that the rule of 2 sith are stronger than the average sith from back during the sith empire but that notable sith who stood at the top of the sith empire back in those days would probably be stronger than rule of 2 sith since that would mean contending with numberless sith jockeying for power and ganging up on the strongest sith yet still reigning at the top.

[@ItsDeebs]

Spirits were just jealous Palpatine did what they couldn't.

[@davidmartin5696]

Of what? He scurried around like a rat for most of his life, "ruled" for a few years and was defeated.

[@Goblynn-s5l]

Kind of a cringe video if you consider DARTH BANE KILLED ALL THE OTHER ANCIENT SITH BY CONVINCING THEM TO USE THE THOUGHT BOMB aaaand so the ancient sith are irrelevent Darth bane established the rule of 2. He beat the other sith AND BY PROXY THE JEDI ORDER TOO

[@skreekx7300]

Marka ragnos is defo my fav sith

[@bobbyrichardson91]

But did palp actually succeed after all he only planted his own mole/down fall

[@colinleat8309]

One of the biggest problems for the Sith is Deminishing returns in terms of knowledge.

[@robertagu5533]

Perhaps but to an Ancient Hammer, isn't that STILL a hammer only seeing nails?? When it's groups like these, everyone thinks they the best typically. Or at least "the best since "X".

[@josephcutler8870]

The 30 reign of the empire goes to show if evil follows guidelines it won't last long and that one man's dream and life ambition is just that.. if they abandoned the rule of 2 and took the jedi temples and started training sith the jedi would never have recovered.

[@josephcutler8870]

Especially if they sent the top of their class to find and kill jedi to gain the lord title. And the legions of lesser cultists/accolades

[@imoweenlodestone5447]

Reason why the ancients hated the order of 2 is this.. the dark powers got lost and the sith got weak. Stick an ancient sith lord against vader, vader is dead in with in 30seconds

[@gr77552]

Have the sith souls changed their minds? When fighting Rey, Palpatine says something to the effect that all the Sith are with him.

[@Nephalem2002]

Truthfully speaking Palpatine never intended to maintain the Rule of 2 once the Empire came into existence. It pretty much became like the Old Sith Empire once he took over, just only 2 Darths, a few Inquisitors, and a fuckton of Bucket heads.

[@KimmoKarttunen]

again good video in Star Wars lore. But yuo you forgot a couple of things relating to the spirits of the Sith. Affer retur of the jedi empperor retur. Sith spirit advised him. And wen jedi A'Sharad Hett go Coriban ancinet sith spirit taught him we of the sith.

[@vincentshadetree]

6:18 How do you spell the guy mentioned here's name? I wanted to look him up and learn more about him. The Sith lore is interesting and feels like ancient technology lost to time. After listening to this, I wonder if the Sith should abandon the Rule of Two in order to build their own collective of Dark side users. If more of them came together, they could possibly find some of the lost powers that the ancient Sith don't want to relinquish

[@NeonoahGaming]

ancient sith are such chads.

[@kyledabearsfan]

Plaugeis is just Sith Qui Gonn.

[@shadeofshattered3]

They are just jealous they came closer than them no one wants to be called a failure

[@TheShadow14150]

I’m beginning to like the ancient sith more 😂

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Darth Bane was so scary.....but he was so cool.