Why the Fernando Alonso penalty confusion is a JOKE!

[@gustavorodriguez8702]

You know Formula 1 is officially back when we're already talking about the FIA stupidity lol

[@alexjw2k4]

Yup.

[@daarom3472]

what exactly did they do wrong then? 1. They didnt notice it. 2. Just before the end Merc notified them. 3. They made a decision, however the rules can be interpreted multiple ways. 4. AM appealed it using prior cases to show it hasnt been consistently punished. All that needs to be done now is changing or amending the rules so the interpretation is unequivocal.

[@jpgmccabe]

The stupidity started by having such narrow start boxes... End of. No advantage was gained by his slight 10cm outta position... Simples... Idiot FIA

[@hipotenuza5663]

Come on, they're collecting material for DTS , you can't blame them 😂

[@notroger7]

@@daarom3472since when did merc notify the fia

[@javiazar]

The issue here was the FIA made an exception for the front jack, because the front jack is how the driver knows when to apply more brake pressure to come to a complete stop. Without the front jack touching the car, the driver will miss his mark. But because the FIA never specified FRONT jack, and just said jack, Aston correctly appealed and won this.

[@72Kraken]

This. A touching (not raised) jack doesn't breach the rules. And since it isn't specified which jack, Aston argued that there was no wrong doing on their part, thus the penalty was overturned.

[@virajjoglekar4337]

​@@72Krakenbrilliant

[@khonjel_singh]

Huh? Wasn't the evidence that jack should not touch isn't binding agreement or a rule and AM showed 7 instances of jack touching other cars but only Alonso getting penaltied.

[@TheRealSonicBeats]

@@khonjel_singh Yes this is exactly the reason, the wording was vague and then previous instances allowed under the same rule wording. Would've been unjust to enforce something now that hasn't been enforce, basically ever, without a rule clarification fist, which will most certainly come in Australian

[@jamesfzy]

@@khonjel_singh The new agreement (non-binding) isn't clear enough by the teams. The new agreement only agrees on no touching. BUT per the rules, the jack can touch (rules never explicitly say it has to be the front, even though it is usually only the front jack). So there lies a contradiction: are jacks excluded from the no touching and is it both jacks or none or one of them?

[@adamrobinson8238]

The reason he got off is they presented video evidence of the FIA’s inconsistency of applying the penalty. FIA will tighten this up, and lesson learned

[@DreadCorazon]

Exactly

[@santiadur]

no they will not

[@ravinderdasila9334]

@@F9109-r1e or they can start timer after the tires are changed and jack is dropped

[@squidcaps4308]

Mostly because the "no touch" rule was not in the rule book, it was an agreement with FIA and teams. AM just pointed out that while the same rule has been in place it has been judged differently... basically say "nah" to the verbal agreement. FIA will clarify the text.. FIA once again trusting that teams who will do anything to win can be trusted to hold any promise that is not in writing and not signed, with hefty penalties from violations.

[@racecarrik]

You can't just say lesson learned after every FIA clown session, they need to be held more accountable and be better at their job. It's the pinnacle of motorsport, they are absolutely trolling being this bad at enforcing regulations.

[@vishnusagarr]

More FIA clownery. Absolutely bonkers that penalty applied after 35 laps.

[@christopherulbrich2014]

That's the thing. It wasn't even noticed or under investigation. It's not like the stewards had something better to do.

[@zooski1516]

Fia hate alonso. It’s a documented fact. This isn’t the first or the last time.

[@nikkrelj471]

Exactly

[@Kaimax61]

It was already cleared, but of course someone must of tipped the ROC to review it. (COUGHMercCOUGH)

[@δαιμόνιον]

If mercedes hadn't cried it wouldn't have been a problem at all

[@darthmatoro]

In Fernando's words: "It's a YOKE!!!"

[@PradiptaElFerrariSur]

Looking for this comment

[@xt4351]

A JOKE!

[@Buttman69]

Me when I get inside a Tesla

[@johnny11415]

And in the end he said 'karma! ' 😅😅

[@PradiptaElFerrariSur]

@@johnny11415 meanwhile Palmer doing analysis of how Fernando got his podium

[@TheWildSlayer]

Aston Martin coming through for Alonso by protesting so hard with an insane amount of evidence in such a short notice the FIA couldn't help but reinstate his podium.

[@KarvidSR]

I mean its just insane imo. How can they be so slow. Then how can they just "ahh yeah you are right, whatever we werent mega clear even tho all your other mechanics are howering, but lets just say the jack isnt a part of it because you know it felt rude to be late with the call and social media is memeing us and you showed others do the same, but we clearly have an idea of what the rule should be, but because we didnt catch the other cheaters we let you the cheater go I guess". So do we now realise our wrongs and change back the outcomes of wrongdoings by the FIA. Wonder if they would do that for 2021 Abu Dhabi... but I guess that is too much effort and too much on the line. But if they cant gouvern when it matters, why are they even gouverning? Is effort/time /feeling really what we are gonna go by in the "pinnacle of motor sport" in 2023. This is just clowning on so many levels.

[@iDeLaYeD_o]

@@KarvidSR The big thing is that it was found in the past and was accepted which was the argument Aston Martian made. I won't be surprised if next race the rules will be updated to include "no mechanic or equipment shall touch the car"

[@nikkrelj471]

Tbh if alonso had been notified about this in freaking 5 laps from this happening, he would have easily gotten those 5 seconds in. He was so obviously watching his tyres and saving the car. Even in the last lap when his team said he needed over 5s between him and Russell he got in half a second in just one lap

[@drugoviic]

no chance

[@nikkrelj471]

@@drugoviic 100% chance.

[@blackpaint9093]

@@drugoviic alonso could consistently hit 1.32.8 lap time for 10/15 laps if he wanted to. Had he known that immedialy he would have definetely gotten more than 10s gap

[@marnick4229]

@@drugoviic even if u think so, and it might have not been possible, he should get the chance

[@JohnnyMaverik]

@@marnick4229 This is the point. Well said.

[@Versatilty]

What they should do is let the car come in and get serviced and then is held by an official time and then release the car to the track at that point. This way the FiA is in charge of the time and the team doesn't matter if they touch or not.

[@TheCebulon]

Awesome idea. The best way and no more doubt of who touched the car and who not!

[@Deploracle]

This cannot work because it is simple to implement and dependable.

[@danielrowling5]

I've said this before aswell, can't understand why it's not implemented like that.

[@einstijn138]

This would be great! Should be even easier now that there is the electronic system with the wheelguns and everything.

[@johnny11415]

Yes I think there should be an official timer to avoid any problems

[@tigerchuu2148]

The jack is fine, because in the rules it states that the jack is allowed to touch the car as it acts like a guide for the car when stopped in the pit lane. This is the job of the front jack but that is not specified in the rules so front or back jack doesn’t matter. Aston also showed video evidence of multiple instances when jacks touched the cars when serving penalties

[@MMAli-rq8kd]

It's funny the front jack didn't touch Alonso's car 😂 The back jack immediately hit the car and waited to lift at the five second mark. Maybe those two switched places, but nice save by Aston arguing the wording and precedent doesn't ban the jack touching the car 😂

[@GamezGuru1]

where is this stated in regulations?

[@peekster0]

"because in the rules it states that the jack is allowed to touch the car as it acts like a guide for the car when stopped in the pit lane" Incorrect. Rules say: Nobody/nothing is allowed to touch the car. Aston Martin have raised the evidence of front jacks touching the car to guide it in to the box and that created a precedent that front jacks are allowed to touch the cars. Nowhere is stated that jacks may touch the car. However, the precedent is that jacks in general are allowed to touch the car. It is not specific to FRONT or REAR jacks.

[@fernandom5122]

​@@peekster0 touch or work?

[@89DerChristian]

Reason is that the fron jack is allowed to touch, because it is used to align the position of the car. Apparently the agreement only mentioned "jack" and not "front jack" so Aston Martin used that as an argument

[@commonguard3431]

@Kimi Timoskainen They didn’t see it coming, with the benefit of hindsight it was resolved.

[@zanmiklosic3138]

But why do they use an agreement the teams made and not THE RULES THAT THEY MADE. In the rules it clearly says work on, then the teams decided the rule is touch.

[@ianchinsor9248]

So lifting the car is working on the car in my book, as the car must be lifted to change the wheels. If the jack contacted but did not lift, as the front jack does then no need for a penalty. I think the FIA wrap themselves up in so many rules that leave room for interpretation, that this happens, and it will happen again.

[@Rob2]

It always surprises me that an organisation like the FIA cannot write a rule book for a billion dollar sport they have been organizing for 70 years. Every time a rule is to be applied it turns out to be badly written... how do they get away with that?

[@wombat4191]

It's not actually quite like that. If I understood it correctly, the agreement stated that the car should not be touched at all, jacks aren't an exception in the first place. But as the evindence shows, the said agreement has not been followed in the past when it comes to front jack, and so the agreement should not be grounds for giving a penalty for touching the car with a rear jack either. Apparently the regulations only state that the car can not be worked on, which would include lifting it up, but there's nothing about touching.

[@shkafity6418]

I think what happened was the fia weren't aware of the car being touched during the time penalty and instead it was merc who appealed at the very last lap to make sure alonso doesn't build up 5 more secs

[@optimusprimus89]

Yeah that's what it sounds like. Mercedes complaining to get an edge. But I do agree with the idea that the car just shouldn't be touched at all.

[@AaronShenghao]

The Race said both Race Control and remote operations center did review and consider it was served correctly right after the pit stop…

[@haribo836]

There's a reason why the team is called Mehcedes.

[@ethanspain]

it turns out that the front jack is allowed to touch the car as it’s used in guiding the car into position however the fia forgot to specify that only the front jack is allowed so instead they just said the jack rather than front jack

[@dilldough071]

@@haribo836 well which fking team wount want to be on the podium, and i can say the same bout rb complaining about DAS

[@casgian3272]

Imagine if FIFA or any other sport’s governing body took a goal away or edited the score after a game ended and the teams were off the field… people would go nuts. The FIA is so absurd to operate the way they do

[@dylanzrim3635]

It happens. But generally they don’t wait 3/4 of the game to do it

[@owensparks5013]

Then they go nuts. If the result is wrong, change it.

[@DavidFernandez-sc5ws]

"is a joke" should be a new series. with every once in a while a special appearance from katie giving a good ol fia rant

[@shampo0oLWD]

You should watch the KZbin channel of Rocketpoweredmohawk!

[@Kieran_OPC]

Katie was annoying no thanks

[@giovannycalvache7939]

​@@Kieran_OPC i second this comment

[@nickofzo]

The legend has got 3 podiums in 2 races.

[@LeongGunners]

Fernando: "Whata yoke, this 5 seconds, what a YOKE!" FIA: "It's 10 seconds, Fernando."

[@fzriow]

I used to be on the pit crew at one of the teams a few years ago and it was always the understanding with us that the front and rear jacks could go under but not lift the car during a penalty. This has been like this for years. AM did nothing wrong.

[@stefanleonte3155]

Can mechanics touch tires and have the wheel guns ready on the wheel nuts ready to go immediately when the penalty time to be served has been served? If not, why not?

[@fzriow]

@@stefanleonte3155 no we were kind of held in a position like as if we were going to do a practice pitstop so wheel guns were a couple of inches away from the nut and the wheel off guys just hovered their hands above the wheels. Maybe things have changed rule wise but this is how it was 5 odd years ago

[@fzriow]

And as far as why, I don't really know that was just how we were told to serve the penalty. Holding the guns off a couple of inches doesn't really lose you much time. We would then get counted down in our ear pieces.

[@tusharbhatia5437]

@@fzriow whoa cool to get insights. Which team were you in if you don't mind or at least a hint ? :)

[@stefanleonte3155]

@@fzriow this approach sounds completely sensible, as touching these components (tires and wheel nuts) during the penalty would arguably be gaining an advantage, even if it’s milliseconds, which in the land of pit stops can prove critical in a race. There’s no reason why jacks touching the car should be treated any differently versus hands or wheel guns.

[@HarleyRussell_78]

Seems like the FIA hired some of Ferrari’s staff members. 😂

[@Bohonk212]

Wondered where Eraserhead went.

[@imibuks-replit]

Oh so thats were the ferrari when me

[@sharpiefatah3657]

...wasn't merc complaining?

[@piuthemagicman]

lol even the CEO of F1 is an ex-Ferrari boss

[@BlackCloud2469]

The issues are quite simple, 2 possible cases: 1. They did not know/weren't sure whether it's a rule breach or not. (this what happens when the rule set is half-baked) 2. They weren't paying close attention and overlooked the pit stop. I don't know which is worse.

[@silverhand861]

Saw another report detailing it a little more, and basically your first point is correct. Apparently, the (front) jack is allowed to touch the car, but the FIA never specified just the front jack. Aston Martin was also able to provide footage of other teams touching with both jack's without getting any penalty, so they were able to argue their way out of it. The FIA will probably clarify this rule because of this confusion. They likely looked closer at it because someone requested it though. Kinda glad such small details didn't end up deciding the podium in the end Edit: Apparently, the agreement was partially verbal and just "an understanding" between the FIA and the teams? Not quite rigorous enough for such a detailed and litigious sport if that's true

[@serbero9]

@@silverhand861 Yeah, and that "someone" who requested it should be made public, otherwise it will look suspicious. If it was a team who did, there should be an official complaint - and it shouldn't even be effective because it was way too late.

[@silverhand861]

@@serbero9 That would be a nice bit of transparency. Might help calm down the politics and scheming if the teams interactions with the FIA were subject to public scrutiny

[@geert-janheyda727]

Can someone explane to me why they don't first service as normal. And as soon as the car drops on the tarmac the timer starts. And ends with the lights turning green after the penalty is served releasing the car as normal. This could even be automated if you ask me.

[@scrubtierfeeder6953]

Just FIA things. Cant look like bush league racing with a professional setup that way.

[@PhilGerb93]

That's pretty smart actually

[@JohnnyMaverik]

Do you fancy a job in the FIA? We need you.

[@MRTransportVideos]

They could even take it one small step further and have a small timer on each rig that counts down from 5 seconds, 10 seconds (or, if you're Ocon, 45).

[@geert-janheyda727]

@@JohnnyMaverik lol😂

[@ItsPengWin]

I think Aston were able to show there has been precedence for people touching the car in this way before so the FIA overturned but I'm also fairly sure they're updating the sporting regulations by the next time out

[@rdutrabh]

When Masi was fired Croft commented that it was unfair because Masi was understaffed. Well... there you go...

[@ondrejkratochvil4589]

Well Alonso celebrated on the podium, didn't have to do the post race press conference - I'd call that win-win :) I feel little sorry for Russell, he looked so happy :)

[@kyannic]

Ralf Schumacher on the German coverage said that he had a secret source, which said that Race Control only called an SC because they couldn‘t see where the Stroll car was parked … with all the cameras around the track they could‘t see it???

[@russell6075]

They have sensors everywhere they know where that car is lol

[@layabout]

Call me a conspiracy theorist but that clearly benefitted Mercedes more than any other team.

Yeah, that was weird. We saw it in TV right after Stroll stopped the car. Yes, the SC was probably in, but the thing is, it was totally unnecessary. A short VSC period would have been enough. Safely remove the car, check if there is some liquid on the track, case closed, green flag.

@@russell6075 True. When somewhere just leaves the track for a second, there is a yellow flag immediately. That's, I'm pretty sure, automated.

@@layabout Yeah, and I think the pit stop jack incident was reported to FIA by them too. We didn't hear all radio messages of course, but Russell was told by the team to close the gap because Alonso might have given a penalty. Then Alonso was told, just to be safe, build a 5 second gap. He had like 3 laps to do this. I can't believe FIA suddenly realized what happened there when Alonso only had a few laps to build the necessary gap. Can't be a coincidence. The timing was perfect for Russell.

[@these.are.my.things]

I think there was an understanding that the front jack could touch the car as part of guiding the car into the pit stop. As it was not a rule they were able to argue that this sets a precedence that jacks can touch the car and it not considered doing work on the car.

[@johncnorris]

From the reports that I heard, AM protested the 10 second penalty on a technicality. The rules allow contact with the front jack because it's the way the car is positioned during a pit stop but the rule book does not specify "front" in the verbiage. Therefore the understanding of the rule conflicted with the writing of it when enforcing whether there is contact with the rear jack. Alpine violated the rule during the last race because a mechanic touched the car with a tool that wasn't a jack.

[@Gnrnrvids]

Alpine violated the rule as not only did they guy touch the car with a tool that isn't a jack, but he started undoing the fitting holding the front wing before the 5 seconds was up. I think he waited all of 3 seconds.

[@ItsLeesus]

I saw the incident live on TV and thought to myself "That's going to be investigated/penalised" Didn't think it would take 30+ laps.

[@GXSergio]

But wait,Alonso wasn't the only one with the car missplaced during the start...

[@GoofySideUp]

FIA currently allows the use of the Jack to direct the car into the grid slot prior to serving the penalty. Because the rules dont specify which Jack (front or rear) AM argued that they are within their rights.

[@WatiBros]

I'm wondering why they are not reversing the process of serving the penalty : mechanics do there work on the car as usual first and then the driver stay stationary for the amount of time necessary to properly serve the penalty. Of course they'd need to monitor that menanics are no longer touching the car (pretty easy if they're all standing up next to the car) and they start monitor the time between that moment and the moment the car start moving again. Any thoughts on that ?

[@greatsageclok-roo9013]

Good point. Why not do that?

[@fedecasagrande]

It could be something like this: They will need to add a touch sensor for the jacks/car, a digital timer (maybe located under the "release lights)" and another switch that cancel the "green light" button (when the timer is NOT at 0:00) . The operation, under the responsibility of the pit crew, is in this order: *Input in the timer the penalty time indicated from Race Control (this should automatically give RED light and cancel the "GREEN light" button). *When the car is lowered and the jacks disengage (all crew may step back or cross they arms...) the timer automatically start. *When reach 0:00 the "release lights control" switch to normal operation

[@WatiBros]

@@fedecasagrande maybe they could use the sensors used for the porpoising, the car seems to be getting a bit slammed on the floor when released by the jackman. A great vertical acceleration during a pit stop should be sufficient to indicate that the pit crew have finish it's job in my point of view

[@thestig1611]

FIA stupidity aside, getting to see Alonso in a fast car and getting podiums again is a treat for any F1 fan. Anytime a legend returns and proves he can still hang with the kids is awesome.

[@96wtfomg]

Reason why they overturned is because they showed 7 instances on jackmen being involved during penalties that went unpunished. So yeah, there's that

[@MetalHeadReacts]

From what I understood, the VAR and others said no penalties were necessary when it happened, but towards the end of the race it was brought the stewards attention by someone... i'm guessing most likely Toto, and the stewards said penalty even though everyone else disagreed. So the penalty was enforced. Aston were given time to appeal and provided, i believe, video evidence of 7 other occasions from other teams where the rear jack had touched the car during a penalty being served and recieved no aditional penalties, so it got overturned.

[@jordandriverlp]

I also thought: Can the FIA decide please? Fernando gets P3 for the 2nd time in a row, which we all were happy, then the penalty and Fernando lost podium and then P3 again?! Dude, this is like USA 2022

[@Seweryn99]

I think they should use the weighbridge. If you get a pen you have to pull into the weigh bridge where the officials hold you in that box for the duration of the pen and then they release you to go you your pit box.

[@lesliejonesHAS]

I miss a Katy FIA rant 😂

[@dedi0201]

Introduce "penalty box" somewhere in the pits where you have to stop for 5/10/15 seconds and then the green light pops out after/before the tires have been changed

The only bad thing about this can be when there are multiple drivers who need to serve a penalty. But I like the idea. That could be easily supervised by and FIA official.

[@dedi0201]

​@ on the other side you can add those lights to pits so the penalty is served after the car is dropped on all tires and all the drama goes away

[@stevemccoy6434]

Merc strategist must have looked at Alonzo's stop again and brought it to light as it would give George 3rd.

[@TheJehu]

You're missing the fact that Aston Martin showed the FIA seven examples of other teams doing the same thing and not getting penalized. That's why it was undone.

[@tbz1551]

The fact that Martin Brundle mentioned it in real time and also stated it would likely be another penalty shows that it is impossible it was "missed".

[@Taibek]

So damn happy about the success of your channel, guys. Really well done! Onwards and very much upwards! 🎉

[@3zek1ll]

Imagine being Ocon seeing this play out 😂

[@haribo836]

The reason the penalty was cancelled is because in the past, teams agreed that the front jack is allowed to touch the car for positioning purposes. The FIA however never specified that it is just the front jack that is exempt, but just "a" jack. Very typical of the FIA to not know their own rules.

[@46stuvegas]

So the rule apparently reads "no one can work on the car" so technically Aston did nothing wrong and also Ocons one a tyre changer grabbed the wheel a little early. Either way it is ridiculous that it took 35 laps.

I think someone reported it. Another team, guess which one I am thinking about.

[@shaunmatthews6889]

I read it was because apparently the front jack is allowed to touch the car during a penalty for reasons.. but the rules don't explicitly say only the front jack.. and the AM team highlighted this and the inconsistency

[@aeKai73]

The consistency of FIA is just outstanding

[@wheresbicki]

AM gave 7 examples of teams touching the car with the rear jack while serving a penalty and FIA not issuing a penalty.

[@PradiptaElFerrariSur]

They definitely didn't cut the Chicken. 5 sec is a YOKE or YOLK 😆😆😆

[@georgexylas7567]

Hey em just giving my opinion on something I’d like to see change in your format. I’d like you to include your f1-to-10 podcast in your main Grand Prix review of every race. I think having one longer podcast that us fans can stream and listen to it for like an hour and a half is much better than two half an hour forty minute podcasts. I’ve spend countless hours listening to it back in wtf1 and as much as I like what you’ve done with p1 I’d like to see this be a thing. I don’t mind if the podcast needs to be delayed by a day personally but thats all I had to say. Thanks for providing incredible content about f1

[@d573m]

Did Aston not show 7 previous examples of the Jackman touching the car and no additional penalty was given.

[@RukaGoldheart]

They did just that

[@vokin]

Believe those were all front jack? The meeting that discussed this supposedly was about that fact that the front jackman should be able to touch (but not lift) the car because it's part of the driver finding their mark. Makes sense to me. The issue was that it was never clearly specified in writing it was only the front jack and so AM argued that both jacks should be able to be in position but not lift. Stewards basically said "we were told by race control it was agreed to only be the front jack and so gave the penalty, but seems that that wasn't actually agreed in writing so we are taking back the penalty".

[@RobertBarton86]

They could fairly easily implement a timer into the ready light system. When the car comes to a stop the timer starts and the light turns a different color, maybe yellow, indicating no work can be done. Then when penalty is complete, light turns back to red and the crew can start work. Since all the crew tools have lights and whatnot, it would aid crew members to know exactly when they can start.

[@BakersTaste]

Really missed the Katy Fairman rant in this one! Now I have to listen to you all separately 😂

[@felipesantana7219]

Whom else??

[@tinytortuga69]

I read somewhere that it was also given back to him cuz the FIA has to communicate a penalty within a certain amount of time after the penalty has occurred, which they didn't cuz it was given after the race had ended

[@MrPsychomonkey]

They should use the spare FIA pit box. If you get a penalty you serve your time in that pit box before going into your own pit box. Multiple cars have penalties well you got to plan your timing to ensure you don't get double screwed

[@laughing5752]

Uhhh, that's more then a 5 second penalty especially for the pit crew on the opposite side of the garage

[@holdencross5904]

Yeah no. I don’t agree with this. That’s an extremely harsh punishment

[@radamus210]

Martin Brundle is pulling his hair out and can't say a word until Australia! HAHA! And Nico is once again laughing at Mercedes joyously

[@Lyionis]

A 10 seconds is a YOKE!

[@329376676]

Russell: I don't want that Spaniard licked trophy anyway. His words.

[@mohammadnashitsiddiqui2168]

It should obviously be a penalty for Ocon

[@adeadgirl13]

As I understand it, the rule says no working on the car and it's applied as no one can touch the car. But then there's an understanding that the front jack can touch the car because it's a matter of safety as the front jack guides the car into place when it comes in. And this is just an understanding and not part of the language of the rule. So Aston Martin argued that the rear jack touching the car is the same thing as front jack touching it and they also pointed to many instances where no pentalty was issued. The only thing hard to understand is why they waited till the end of the race to inform everyone of this penalty in the first place.

[@Blue_Beta]

This is why F1 needs a "long lap penalty" too

[@GPL04]

Send them round tha back through the carwash / toll booth (exact change only)

[@RubeusLeclerc]

Matt’s predictions!!! Wowza! Talk about nailing it !!!

[@Coconut523]

The FIA are using Ferrari level strategies now

[@sircharles1808]

I think because it is common for the front jack to still touch the car to guide it into place even when serving a penalty, it created confusion and so it was assumed that the back jack was also aloowed. TBH there needs to be clear written rules of aspects like this and not just vague word-of-mouth agreements

[@px31971]

We all know it was Merc crying to the Stewards. Aston Martin showed clear proof of many episodes of teams serving penalties with the jack touched the car and it was allowed.

[@maisysworld5855]

Toto went ballistic

[@skiran6316]

He even printed it out

[@MiroTheCate]

There should be a rule that if FIA thinks someone has done wrong then there should be a time limit of 5 minutes. If nothing is given under those 5 minutes then no penalty should be given. And if something happens in last lap then results should be declared after taking penalty into account otherwise it all looks like a circus.

[@veYda25]

Sky england was so fast to point out how they touched the car and said that it's a penalty, and now everyone is so confused that it's not a penalty. I wonder if you would be all over this topic if it wasn't a british driver potentially profiting from this.

[@TheRip72]

I don't care which way the decision went, but it should be in accordance with the rules & definitely not raised for investigation 30+ laps later. I was pleased when they raised the initial infringement while the drivers were still on the 1st lap. Again, this was not because I wanted to see a penalty but because they usually leave it to around lap 8 before deciding there may be something not quite right.

[@Mandykiss4500]

@@TheRip72 Apparently a Rival Team thought there should be a Penalty…ie, Mercedes, that’s why it was relooked at…

[@matthewross2236]

This is soo easy. Let the car come in and do the change immediately. Then penalty starts the moment the car drops , driver waits for green light or beep. Soo easy

[@airman_85uk]

1- there should be a FIA delegate for pit stop time penalties. That will clear the confusion. 2- There needs to be some rules for post-race penalties. Whatever order they finish +time penalties at the time of crossing the checkered flag. That’s the finishing order. Whatever penalty comes afterwards has to be properly investigated and the time penalty is changed to a fine taken from the budget cap or time/grid penalty for the next race.

[@drugoviic]

thats not fair at all

[@BSProductionsO7]

The front jack is allowed to touch the car before 5 seconds as it's used to guide the car into the box, and so the rear jack hasn't been specifically excluded from that exception of touching the car as I understand it. Aston provided proof that there were several other examples of teams going unpunished for similar infringements. I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal over this, new evidence was presented, the decision was understandably overturned. If every bad decision was final that would be a bigger problem in my eyes. People make mistakes, the important thing is that they were open to realising that.

[@plbr04]

It's a YOKE, a YOKE

[@dominicmako4649]

Other race series have exactly what was described here - a marshal in the pit area that administers the penalty. In Indycar he will literally stand in front of the car to prevent it from leaving until the penalty is served.

[@72Kraken]

The point with the jacks, as I understand it now, is that there is already an exception made for the front jack when serving the penalty. Teams argued, that the front jack was need to help guide the car into the correct stopping position. Thus the rule of "not working on the car" is already unclear, since a touching jack (just touching, not raised) doesn't constitute "working on the car". Additionally, Aston argued that there was no team wide agreement on what is and what isn't "working on the car", thus the Alonso incident doesn't breach the rules. Just seems like the rule is very unclear and open to many interpretations, which is never a good thing when it comes to rules anyways.

[@hisham_hm]

Looking forward to Katy's FIA rant in her Small Torque Podcast!!

[@vjrajeshkumar]

You can get better enforcement by simply reversing the order in which the penalty is applied - have the mechanics complete the work on the car and trigger the mechanism that causes the light to go green, and have the FIA enforce an X second hold back on the light going green based on the penalty to be applied

[@AllanGoodall]

Guys, I love your channel, but you needed to do more homework on this. Another channel explained it. The front jack is allowed to touch the car (but not raise the car) during a penalty because it is used to guide a car into the box. This has been stated in the explanatory discussions with the teams. Aston Martin was able to argue that it's never been explicitly stated that the rear jack cannot touch the car. They pointed out other occasions where a team was not penalized for the rear jack. The FIA decided "fair enough" and dropped the penalty. The issue wasn't the penalty being dropped, it's that there are explicit rules that receive clarifications, and the clarifications aren't being written into the sporting regulations. The FIA messed up, but the reason for the confusion and backtracking is easily explained.

[@wombat4191]

I feel like Aston might have had the argument planned out in advance. After all, they had 7 examples ready basically immediately, from previous races where the front jack touched the car during a penalty and those cases didn't result in a further penalty. So they must have noticed that touching the car with a front jack is OK, and thought "well, then the rear jack touching should be OK as well, let's do that the next time we get a penalty". But they knew that it might be seen as an incorret serving, and prepared an argument :D If this is true, it would explain how Alonso was being so funny about it. Also, that would mean that he's now in a team that fits him like a glove. Not pulling any punches when it comes to stretching the regulations and exposing flaws. As a sidenote, props to Russell, he basically just said "sure, I'll take the trophy if they are giving it to me, but Alonso and AM are the ones who deserve it".

[@deladuna]

Good to see the cheeky Silver KZbin Award in Matt's background. Can't wait for the golden award to come!

[@peterfconley]

They need to have a statute of limitations, where if the FIA don’t notice a violation of this nature within two laps, forget it.

[@kiwee4577]

The only man who earned a trophy twice in a single race

[@PiotrMichniewski]

Regarding the Mercedes snitching - just introduce a rule that you have e.g. 5 laps to do so

[@georgeretsides4293]

Aston Martin cited precedence where other teams were not penalised for the same thing. That is why the FIA reverted the penalty.

[@MEchanicAL_LSTAR]

At LeMans, we had stewards in the pitlane that were monitoring all pit stops. If you had to serve a penalty they were the ones that timed the penalty and told you when you could start. Same went for ALMS and GrandAm races that I did. Not sure why F1 can’t have the same.

[@johnloster8237]

Nice work on stretching this video to 8 minutes 👍

[@axemanracing6222]

Remember when Schumacher made an overtake on sleepy Fernando between safety car line and start finish line, where they changed the rules afterwards to punish him for that move?

[@hallamhal]

I've got a pretty hard edged solution: Run a strong current through the car for 5 seconds, giving anyone who touches it during the penalty a nasty shock

[@jk844100]

The reason that the decision was reversed was because Aston Martin provided 7 examples of other teams doing exactly the same thing (rear jack touching during penalty) and not getting a penalty. They literally pulled a Toto “I’ve sent you an email”

[@OptimusXZero]

I don’t know why they can’t either say. “Teams can complete a pit stop as in Normal race conditions but in the case of a time penalty having been been issued, the car will be lowered on all four wheels, all mechanics away from the car with the car remaining stationary for the penalty time issued. If cases where wheels or any other parts on the car which unless addressed are deemed a danger the time penalty cannot be applied till the car is deemed safe to return to the track and having served its penalty” Or even easier. Any and all time penalties to be applied at the end of the race

[@hamdanali2036]

2:00 the agreement was about the front jackman. they’re allowed to make initial contact as that’s how the car is guided into the pit box. but nothing was said about the rear jackman.

[@PartTim3Hobo]

Easiest way to resolve this is to allow work to be done when the car enters the pit box but then when the green light signal would normally be sent to the stoplight indicator, allow the FIA to remotely add 5 seconds or 10 seconds or however many seconds to that light turning green. That way it's all on the driver serving their penalty.

[@DonLee1980]

Aston has argued that many cars have not been penalized when the front jack was touching the car, mostly because it’s needed for to guide the car to the right box spot, but there’s no rule saying that the rear jack can’t touch the car.

[@tigreporteador]

There should be a rule regarding how much time does fia has to investigate things… if after x laps or minutes there is no penalty, then that’s it…

[@VolleyballExplained]

Why exactly should a touch of the rear jack matter? The problem should/could/would occur if there is an action that really matters? Or if I can't understand it, please explain to me how a slight touch matters...

[@Vier_LeFanz]

The thing is, that the RAW says "work on the car". With is specified in an agreement to mean "not touch the car". There is an agreement that the front jack is excluded. But as rhuhiss is not mentioned in written rules anywhere, Aston Martin protested, being sure that the exception includes the rear jack as well...

[@NitronF117]

Matt: Hands off for 5 seconds. Aston Martin: Rear jack isn’t hands. 😂

[@Rob2]

I saw someone on another channel propose that the penalties are to be applied AFTER the work. So, the car comes in and is worked on as normal, then at some point it is dropped from the jacks and THEN there is a 5 or 10 second delay before the lights turn green and the driver can go. That is much easier to check, and easier on the pit crew as they do not have to act counter to their well trained procedure. (of course it is a little harder for the driver, but he should be used to waiting a few seconds before a red light goes out)

[@DaniMacYo]

I think they should have an FIA person down there, time the 5 seconds and on the 6th second signal to the team to commence the pit stop. I swear we used to have an FIA timer down there in the V10 era.

[@garrote9737]

And what about the other car in the same position as Fernando but not getting penalty at the start?

[@rolandmdill]

I wonder if the FIA waited for a reaction from Mercedes how they handle it, and if they would file a complaint if Russel didn't get P3

[@RPLAsmodeus]

Mercedes were complaining and trying to get Alonso penalised. They were on the radio to George saying Alonso would get another penalty. How did Mercedes know that 'before' Aston Martin? Shenanigans. If the front Jack is allowed to touch the car, the rear jack should be allowed to.

[@mprein6924]

Did you see alonsos reaction after the podiumceremony? He was smiling and didn,t seem to mind at all. Very cool reaction!

[@Jifha]

This doesn’t take anything away from Alonso, it helps exposes more of what needs to change. Someone/some manufacturer pushed for this end of race penalty. That’s should also be exposed imho. Kudos to the Aston Martin team for providing video proof so quickly that this has been allowed many times before.