Why the Homunculi Were Better Characters in Brotherhood

[@LunaticThePhantom]

I'm sorry wtf do you mean this video has 10k views now? Edit: This vids ass go watch my newest FMA video instead

[@SomeOtherTroper]

The title is a specific take on a topic that has had a reputation for being flamebait. I'm not sure why you're surprised.

[@LunaticThePhantom]

​@@SomeOtherTroperThat is true I suppose. Nonetheless it's performing significantly better than I was expecting and it jumped from 1k to 11k incredibly rapidly, something I'm not used to on this channel.

[@ReleaseZeKrakken]

​@@LunaticThePhantoma video randomly popping off is always a good feeling

[@samlerf]

I hope you will continue with more videos. I see talent.

[@samlerf]

@@LunaticThePhantom Father becomes a much better villain when you realize that all the homunculus are parts of his personality. When you think of all of them as one being rather than eight separate ones.

[@freddieadams8435]

Not to mention the irony in their last moments: Lust was burned by a womanizer immune to her charm Gluttony was consumed Sloth died working hard against the two hardest working men in the series Envy killed himself Pride died begging at the hand at Edward who's biggest sin was peide and Kimberly a person who was more prideful than him Wrath died peacefully by a blow of someone who overcame their wrath And Greed died satisfied by sacrificing themself.

[@BobofWOGGLE]

Sloth doesn't just die to the two hardest working men in the series, Armstrong's arc throughout is about confronting and defeating his own sloth: he's known for a long time what the military is and what horrors it inflicts on its citizens and he spends most of the series kicking himself over his inaction, his failure to stand up and fight back against that evil.

[@freddieadams8435]

@@BobofWOGGLE also forgot that it wasn't just them it was the hard work of over a dozen soldiers, including Olivier who like her brother is defined by her hard work.

[@wanna-be-thinker2377]

@@freddieadams8435 And don't forget Izumi, who you could say became the hardest working teacher/housewife in the series (going by her own description).

[@harmlesschimera4793]

Mustangs womanizing seems more like a act. The interpritation i personally enjoy the most is that Lust was killed by a man who loved.

[@Dattebayo04]

Also Wrath went out in peace with a smile on his face.

[@gregchezick7757]

The aspect of BH's villains that I personally think is genius is that they are all allegories for a state under a fascist framework. Father isn't just some shadowy figure residing within the government of Amestris, he is Amestris, it's entire history was crafted by him for the express goals of his eventual ascension, and everything within is nothing more than fodder for his goals. Lust in acting as a kind of liaison to regional powers, think of her giving Cornello the philosopher's stone as a means to instigate turmoil in the region, she exploits people's lust for power and manipulates them with promises for more. Envy represents the people and how easy it is for minor differences to be exploited to ferment hatred between groups. His main motivation is that he hates humanity because he believes us to be better than him, so hurting humans allows him to bury his true feeling. Wrath represents moral superiority through violence. Greed would be the Fascists that eventually understand that they aren't going to be the ones benefitting so splintering off and rebelling is the only option. They want what the leader has but will never get it. Sloth is a people tendency to just go along with things because they know that doing anything else will be harder in the long run, that is why there is the supposed contradiction with Sloth as someone who is constantly working, if he stops he know that Pride is there to keep him in his place, and anything is better than that. Pride is the homunculus who keeps all of the others in check, with their pride as the chosen few they have the knowledge when everything is said and done they will be on top. Gluttony is just gluttony, as long as he has a full belly he wont complain with what is happening around him.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

03 a lot of them all tie into Ed Envy an Wrath are two paths he could have fallen into Ed even cries when Envy leaves to find his father then Ed takes Wrath to Winry

[@bluedragon3657]

​@@senritsujumpsuit6021 OK mate we get it you prefer '03, but your comment has nothing to do with what op said.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@bluedragon3657 how does it not so someone mentioning the context of one version of a set of characters is only normal when they say it When I literally do the same thing with scene context it's not hard with eyes to see

[@Ollie_668]

I think the thing that really sells me on the Homunculi in brotherhood (mind you, I didn’t watch 2003) is that as cheep as it kind of sounds, they’re not supposed to be one character, but aspects of one guy. This did take me a re read to fully realize but the whole point of them is they're not the Sins from hell, they’re Father’s sins. It’s his lust, his greed, his envy. They’re all telling us something about him, so in a way even though it’s 8 different antagonists, it’s one person

[@IISheireenII]

I also really love _what_ they tell about Father. His Greed likes to collect people to call his. His Gluttony likes to be indulged like a child. His Lust likes to indulge others. That is why she is usually seen with Gluttony. There is also the aspect of bloodlust but that is not important for my point. That guy just really wanted a family just like Hohenheim did. That is also why he gave his sort of brother immortality too. But Father cast these aspects of himself aside to pursue his goal.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@IISheireenII the part that sucks thou is that this here sounds cool but for the whole final many chapters all they do is be thing to punch hard mostly Selim serves purely to be edgy child until the very very end then it just ends also his whole ability makes zero alchemy sense

[@IISheireenII]

@@senritsujumpsuit6021 Prides shadow form is very similar to the dwarf in the flasks original form and also similar to the arms that reach out from the gate when someone attempts human transmutation. That might not seem to fit with the otherwise more physically grounded alchemy powers but this (literally) metaphysical ability has precedence in the story from the beginning. Even '03 had the arms from beyond the gate. Why would a (direct decendend of a) beeing from beyond the gate that is powered by human souls not be able to use them? But to go back to the family point. Pride was the first one created by Father. The first one to be created was given the appearance of a child. Meaning Father wanted a child back then. Simultaniously, when he created Pride, same with all the homunculi, he put in there all the aspects of himself he didn't like, what he considered his _sins_. Pride got the most of his disdain for humans and sense of superiority over them (while Father is only indifferent to their existance after that). He got the shadow form from the Dwarf in the Flask (Father still had his Envy, his wish to be human, inside him at that point, so he cast away his old inhuman form) I could go on, but this comment is already long. I wholeheartedly believe those that don't like Brotherhood, just don't understand anything about Brotherhood. *It's something that gets better the more you think about it.* Father alone is such a multilayered character that he's been literally split into multiple characters and you have to analyse each of them to get the actual picture. And that is not even mentioning the rest of the cast. Meanwhile '03 (after it's great start) devolves into an angst fest that pretends to be "deep" while feeding you fortune cooky wisdom and isn't even consistent with it's logic. Don't ever actually think to deeply about it and it's contradictions or you'll be severly dissapointed by it's bad writing. I know I was back then. The only flaw of Brotherhood is how it speedruns the early arcs. Cutting out Yorki to reintroduce him later out of nowhere for example was a mistake for the show as a whole. An understandable one since they animated it only a few years prior, but still. Apart from those things? Brotherhood is just the better show.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@IISheireenII pretends to be deep is stupid phrase to use if its whole second half is just angst fest then what the hell are many arcs in BH Selim Pride spends basically all the runtime not having that lore an is just the super crazy Shota an somewhat explaining the Shadows is not stopping that I watched all of BH and a lot of those fights in those last chapters just got busy an did not do much but inflate the shoenen action which made the parts of lore it had harder to get with overall while 03 has stuff like Sloths fight showing how much Eds changed etc

[@IISheireenII]

@@senritsujumpsuit6021 I use pretend to be deep because '03 hits all the emotional notes of beeing deep without making any actual sense

[@emeraldeyes5319]

It's funny you mentioned the misconception about FMAB cutting a lot; I'd read the manga twice long before starting the Brotherhood Anime and I knew the discourse about it being cut down, and as I watched it I was like: "No, this is pretty much what the manga does in the chapters" (though I did feel like some of the characterization outside of the chapters like the little Roy Mustang-Comic actually did a lot for the manga in comparison to the anime, making reading more interesting and characters more immediately memorable). Also, your little Envy-reel answered a question I've had for a long time: "Why do I love Envy so much when he's not even that deep?" He may be my favorite character and it's purely because he's so dang fun and charming!

[@sarafontanini7051]

depth isn't always necessary for a villain c: a complex villain isn't always a good one, and envy isn't even that complex in either version

[@jakubgodyn7413]

As a person who started with Brotherhood the only cut that really hurts the story is a coal mine chapter.

[@CrimsonMey]

​@@jakubgodyn7413 poor Yoki😂

[@TheAzulmagia]

@@jakubgodyn7413 The exclusion of Basque Gran's part in trying to stop the Ishval War kind of annoys me. And May also loses her introduction in Yoswell due to that chapter being yadda yadda'd over, so she just randomly shows up with Scar. Those are the only real glaring omissions I can think of.

[@awfulpancakes]

i never read the manga but I watched 2003 before brotherhood, and I can say I did miss that cool train fight scene before Ed and Al get to central, but it's not really integral to the plot. Also, yeah, the omission of the coal mine arc bummed me out a little, Yoki is such a fun character and it's a little lame his whole origin is basically offscreen

[@LegnaiaUnderground]

Why you didn't notice Envy dying in 2003, you ask? Because he died in Conqueror of Shamballa, and that movie really didn't have time to focus on some important things (while wasting some time in less important parts). I heard that initially it should have been a 13 episodes second season, or a series of 3 movies, so a lot had to be cut off. And it's a shame. I heard that planned scenes included a closure for Mustang & Winry, and interaction between Wrath & Izumi instead of her dying before the movie. In the speedrun of random things happening "because yes" in the movie, Envy's death is just a blink-and-you-miss-it moment where he is not a character anymore, just a silent and passive plot device. At least Gluttony and Wrath gave us a good fight just before their death (and while unexplained, that fight may give some idea about how Dante might have been using Gluttony to refine the philosopher's stones: he "sweated" them... Gross.). Yes, I'm sad because there was a lot of wasted potential in that movie.

[@sarafontanini7051]

envy goes from like the second most major antagonist in the 2003 show into randomly dying alongside hohenheim to make a portal so the nazis can invade amestris its reaaalllll lame

[@hyschara]

@@LegnaiaUnderground that movie gave me trauma which resurfaced when I watched season 5 of AOT. I hate fantasy to real world equivalent plot twists

[@Fantomstranger]

@@hyscharawhy ?

[@hyschara]

@@Fantomstranger because i watch fantasy to get away from the real world 💀💀💀 literally top anime betrayal for me

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@sarafontanini7051 its not lame at all that whole part ties directly into the theme Wrath wants to stop Al an the Ed that spared his life to not suffer more and Hohenheim wanted to give something to his children finally "We all had our excuses and they seemed right to us and no one thought it would lead to suffering like this I know that but now all of us take the blame do you understand we can't keep on living like our dreams are all that matter" the last Mustang scene before the movie is related to this

[@keigoftw]

'09 Envy has this manic energy and sheer lack of fucks that honestly remind me a lot of Bill Cipher

[@foryossimodicarbonio9703]

"Mustache-twirling femboy" absolutely kills me

[@jayenlow1191]

Writing, backstory, depth, traits are like the characters data, their information. Characterization is what brings them to life, it's execution is what makes characters like people

[@marquistf1996]

This. You could dump a whole bunch of lore or you could have the character tell a funny joke. I know which one will stick and which one will be forgotten in two weeks.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@marquistf1996 so we should just have speedwagon be every character because lore building on themes is boring then by this reasoning

[@mihaimercenarul7467]

​@@marquistf1996that's a very stupid thing to say but ok

[@thomasjensen3403]

@@marquistf1996 Both will be forgotten unless you're some huge fantasy nerd🤓that also lives with humor(Which btw good luck with THAT much brainpower).

[@Agnes1322]

I think what annoys me about the 03 homunculi the most actually comes from the logistical side of things. The concept of the main antagonists being failed human transmutations turned into homunculi (forced to confront the people who turned them into that) is amazing. But the problems begin when the homunculi are also being representations of the 7 deadly sins. These two concepts just don't mesh well - does this mean there can always just be 7 homunculi at the same time? What happens if someone attempts human transmutation while there are already 7? Why are failed transmuted humans named after the 7 deadly sins at all and how are these titles assigned? The logistics of that are just too convoluted, it's two ideas that are great seperately but as soon as you merge them you just open a barrage of questions the show isn't ready to answer. So to me, this aspect of the homunculi doesn't really make them more interesting, it just makes them frustrating and confusing.

[@KaleidoAbridged]

I used to think dante personally collected these homonculi and named them after sins for fun and she stopped at 7 because she had a 'set' more homonculi could be made but hats none of Dantes business.

[@Lucerious92]

After some thought, agree. Like you I love the concept of them being failed transmutations. But yeah you’re right naming those iterations after the deadly sins didn’t make as much sense. Dante when naming Ed and Al’s mom “hmm let’s see we don’t have a Sloth so guess that’s your name now 👵🏼”

[@eisteebastard7565]

Dante named them after sins it's not that deep

[@nono9543]

This. The failed transmutation idea is a cool concept and hell I think it could definitely be repurposed in either another series or in the same series but just distinguished a bit. But giving that origin to the concept of the Homunculi just doesn't feel right cause it's clear that's not what they are or were meant to be. Why does Gluttony look like that? Was he a weird looking baby when he died? It creates more questions than it does answers them.

[@awkwardsquirtle]

Well Lust did mention that she's the "NEW" Lust so there has to be more, but only these mattered to the story

[@CrimsonMey]

I think there's so much more to mangahood Lust. It's just that she got killed too early. Which is the entire point. Until then, all the homonculi would ever do is laugh at how humanity is so beneath them and how humans could never best them. They act so removed from it all but Lust herself said that except for a few things, they're basically humans with human emotions. But at that moment, we can doubt her words because we haven't seen more of them. That came later with the other homonculi.

[@casualnerdjason6678]

FMAB is better overall… but the original is my favorite. I love the original’s take on the homunculi AND the Gate. When Ed wakes up in the alternate world, it blew me away.

[@CrowTRobot]

The first 20 episodes of ‘03 is still peak to me and even though the story takes a lot of dips, I love the animation style of the ‘03 series. The final 20 episodes of Brotherhood cannot be topped but ‘03’s darker, sadder beginning really works.

[@AnkhAnanku]

It seems like the title card acted like a signal flare to the ‘03. Well played Lunaluna; have a few more comments.

[@matteste]

And one funny thing about the original adaptation is that it actually answers the question of "why" the Philosophers Stone works. Both it and regular alchemy simply draws power from the same source, one just removes the middleman.

[@awfulpancakes]

@@mattesteto be fair, Brotherhood kinda explains how they work, just not directly. Souls have energy that is beyond the power of alchemy, because there's nothing that could equal the value of a human soul

[@steelclackers2611]

I'll be honest to me manga is "the original". I've read it first before watching the anime and it was my main mistake. Simply that made fma 2003 unwatchable to me, and disgruntled, I dropped it very quickly. I had no sense of nostalgia to it in the end.

[@TheAzulmagia]

2003 Lust is overall more realized of a character, I'd say, if only because Manga/Brotherhood Lust is meant to be more of a template for what Father *mostly* expects from the Homunculi. She's all business, never wavers from her duty, and never yields in her convictions. Notably, the other Homunculi become all the more dysfunctional after her passing. If she has any shortcoming, it's that she's too eager to kill. She believes that she's killed Mustang, one of the human sacrifices, and then immediately turns around and is willing to kill Alphonse moments later. We see Bradley and the others use coercion to try to keep the sacrifices in line, but Lust just goes straight to murder without even entertaining another route.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

the BH thing is that they have a lot of vague ideas but unlike 03 they mostly do nothing when 03 had limited time but gave so much food for thought that fanfiction go fuking nutty with it there is a 200,000 fic of Envy gaining humanity an facing life alongside Ed as brothers instead of dying by his sin and many fics about Wrath wondering about his place is this world an discussing with Al said feelings

[@nuzhatmaliat9258]

Ig you could say she's full of bloodlust......I'll see myself out

[@apollo1493]

@@senritsujumpsuit6021 Do you know the names of those?

[@Abcdefg-tf7cu]

​@@senritsujumpsuit6021 "fan cation got nutty with it" is never a good argument. Fan fiction is, by definition, stuff made up by fans that is not in the actual text of the original work.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@Abcdefg-tf7cu when was having a lot of themes at play to explore yourself later some sort of dumbasses argument let alone an argument in the first place Half the reason people care about MHA is that they can explore the society that is only somewhat touched on its the whole reason the Vigilantes spinoff happened hehe

[@5001Fergies]

i think a bug point of contention is that some people think it is objectively correct to have a sympathetic villain, but thats simply a preference that they have which they assume everyone else must have. Zaheer from the legend of korra, for example, is far from a sympathetic villain, and doesnt have a tragic backstory, yet hes widely considered the best villain in the series. making a tragic character doesnt inherently make them good, but rather is one possible type of villain that some people will prefer over others

[@l.n.3372]

My best friend and I debate all the time about the best LoK villain. While I think I personally like Zaheer the least (compared with say Kuvira, Amon and Tarrlok), the fact that Zaheer returns in season 4 and helps Korra is what, IMO, sets him above the rest. No other villain returned and helped the main character. Not to mention that Korra confronting him to deal with her PTSD also pushed Zaheer to the top as well.

[@Some_guy_passing_by]

True . When a series makes every damn villain sympathetic and with a sobstory and pretty much molded in the same cast , it gets boring af ( which is why people loved Orochimaru and whatever came after Pain was perceived as boring by Naruto watchers ; the series got saturated with heroes/victims that became villains). In FMAB , we have a variety. Greed is benevolent, Pride and Wrath are totally evil but we can be sympathetic to him because they have people they love. Sloth and Gluttony are neutral, they're not inherently evil , nor good ( cuz they lack braincells), they're just used to carry out the dirty work. Lust and Envy wanted to live like people but couldn't, that aside , they're sadists and yet their last moments made our hearts sink .

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@Some_guy_passing_by wait so if every villian being st all sympathetic then why viewers of MHA hate the ending so much where they talk about saving villians as a hero thing to do then kill every single one anyway then cucked the MC for 8 years after he ya know wom the war too :/

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@5001Fergies fully adore 03 since they make them fully showcase the themes wrapped around people like Izumi an Ed the whole Sloth fight an the Lust vs Wrath encounter ending off with Tucker wo serine away broken over Nina just gives so much for us to think over same with Dante as a foil for countless tragic AU fics Al or Ed Homunculus fics are insane One has Dante put the Armor Helment on Al to punish him after a outburst at dinner Fuk jts intense

[@Thawheedi]

Like here’s a list I’ve compiled Am (IHNMAIMS) Judge Holden (Blood Meridian) De la crus (Coco) 2003 Shredder (TMNT) Bill Cipher (Gravity Falls) Midway Shao Khan (Mortal Kombat) Gruntilda (Banjo kazooie) Frollo (Hunchback of notredame) Syndrome (incredibles) Fairy Godmother (Shrek 2) Rumpel (Shrek 4) Jack Horner (Puss in boots 2) Odin (Gow Ragnorok) Aizen (Bleach) And so many others I can mention. All these villains are unsympathetic assholes who lack sympathy but are still highly regarded for being great villains.

[@israelcadetftwsierra8254]

so the whole point of this video is to show characterizations and interactions and reactions is the most important part of fiction. even if you want to make a backstory or development that's fine. but you don't need a backstory or development to make the characters better. you just need to have well written personalities, depth, reactions, and interactions to do so. Got it! As a fellow writer who's making a series, i really need this.

[@Some_guy_passing_by]

Just so Which is why we felt for Nina and Alexander more in the 03 version. She has no backstory because she is literally a child ...now she is left with two other kids and a goofy ahh dog ( a responsible father would never allow it); so we see her actions, interactions , what she thinks etc , and when the calamity falls , we're outraged . Brotherhood version wasn't really bad , but we got less of Nina which dulla the effect a bit ? Conversely, 03 homunculi are defined solely by their past , there's not much going on in the present; in FMAB , while they lack a past , we're engaging with them at present and it's not shoved into our face that how we must be sympathetic to them ; and yet we were sad when envy died .

[@marshallc6215]

​​@@Some_guy_passing_by ... we were? I didn't feel a whole lot of anything other than disappointment that they made mustang kill envy sadistically rather than wrathfully like he did in 0 (or whoever it was he killed the same way.)

[@fredrickum5474]

I think this analysis is the best definition of ‘sounds good on paper’ and the power of the grapevine. If you described to someone the story of each homunculi, it sounds like 03 is way better, but in execution it somewhat falters. But because of those juicy character descriptions, some people might have just convinced themselves or others that these characters were better than they actually are without even watching the shows or not having rewatched them in a while

[@genyakozlov1316]

Or the Homunculi in Brotherhood are just absolute garbage, and Father is a boring villain compared to Dante. That's also possible.

[@Uhhhhhyeahuhhhh]

@@genyakozlov1316 Trisha being the earlier versions of sloth (tristitia and acedia) it is goddamn mind blowing. things don't always have to be spoonfed.

[@Kayas]

I just finished showing my friends FMA 2003, and I couldn't agree more. I'm watching Brotherhood with them starting tomorrow (I've seen both already). I feel very validated watching this video. I'd also love to see you cover the misinformation I've seen about both series that muddies any thought-provoking conversation.

[@LegnaiaUnderground]

Kudos for showing your friends 2003 first and then Brotherhood. I think that gives the best experience.

[@LegnaiaUnderground]

I'd like to know your friends' opinion/votes about 2003 now and how they will change after watching fmab...

[@Kayas]

@@LegnaiaUnderground Disclaimer: I like 2003 (a bit less on this watch tbh) and it's my first exposure to FMA as a whole. They didn't like it and we found a lot of narrative problems. It sacrifices coherent storytelling in place for melodrama and the complexity of the characters in it are overstated.

[@LegnaiaUnderground]

@@Kayas I guess having multiple writers didn't help, it ended up with a few out-of-character moments (Ed not seeming emotionally affected at all by the death in EP 4, on which he had a part, while he respects life and should have been shocked) and a few out-of-nowhere moments (when Scar's arm absorbs the text from a book... Which was absolutely unnecessary).

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@Kayas narative problems how is it not coherent its super straight forward in it theme its BH that gets super into big shonen melodrama it just gets overwhelming when I saw BH ending episodes I checked out for a lot of it then the no sacrifices really at all happy ending just felt hollow 03 sticks with what the themes so hard along with the power system Selim in BH is super stupid in the way his whole ability makes no sense then just does evil stuff then suddenly has some sort of depth at the very end

[@billybucks9963]

Only clicked this cuz I saw it was a small channel paying to be sponsored and it was actually great you earned a new sub keep going bro can’t wait to see you as a bigger channel 💯💯

[@Lindon48]

Same! I was searching ice spice twerk complication but this the first sponsored I clicked ever

[@LunaticThePhantom]

@@billybucks9963 Thank you, appreciate the support

[@KingDeku6967]

@@Lindon48wtf

[@AnkhAnanku]

@@LunaticThePhantom I’m not going to watch because I completely disagree but have a couple comments to boost ya anyway

[@c.j.hoskinsiii3286]

How did you notice it was a sponsored video?

[@konjiki8203]

Honestly, I kinda agree with you about the homunculi in 03 comparative to Brotherhood, and this is coming from a guy who typically cares more for 03, but will still give Brotherhood its props. Putting aside Lust and Sloth who imo got the better end of writing, the other homunculi either have no definitive change, or are lacking in execution. First one out is Pride Bradley, Wrath Bradley was way better, and Pride Bradley only had his regen, and his quote about being God’s Angel, nowhere near as good as Wrath Bradley. Then we have Gluttony who is honestly not that different from Brotherhood, other than minor changes at the end. Then there’s Child Wrath, Izumi’s boy. I find him hard to take seriously, due to the shortcuts in his character from nice to villainous, and then crybaby, even if that is wrathful in a child’s manner. He only gets good in Conqueror of Shamballa where he accepts the truth of himself and wants to go back to Izumi. 03 Greed is an interesting homunculus, at least compared to his first iteration in Brotherhood (second Greed is way better), because of what he does for Ed, forcing him to kill to see his goals furthered, but he is only in 4-6 episodes, and there isn’t much to push him further, and all we know is that he was a former lover of Dante’s, but that information bears no real meaning in The episodes. And lastly, Envy who had everything that was necessary to make him real good. Motivation, backstory, relation to Hohenheim and the Elric brothers, even capoeira. The problem was that one, the revelation that he was Ed’s older brother was great, revealing his familial envy, but it forced a dilemma for Ed only for that moment, rather than building it up, as if it was for shock value, and two, Envy basically got everything he wanted. He got in the way of the Elric brothers, killed Ed, made it through the gate, and killed Hohenheim. He remained the same until the end, and Brotherhood Envy ended up a better character, as his envy wasn’t just familial, but against all humans (there’s more to it, but that’s the basis of it).

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

how the hell are you people so hung up on Wrath not staying a normal kid for like ten episodes the point of that one sudden scene was establishing foreshadowing how much the Homunculus are not inherently evil Wrath is just plagued by trauma amplified by tons

[@NFoot10]

I think Brotherhood just is goated in terms of weaving characters and plotlines together in a way that they both elevate each other yet don't lose their individuality. And the best example of this is the Homunculi's connection with Father, A lot of people just like to view the homunculi individually, but I think them being part of Father literally transfers all their character development to Father, elevating him to one of the better antagonists in anime, I think he's an extremely underrated character with an impactful character arc and a high level of symbolic character writing.

[@Laiser]

Was super surprised to see the title of this video and have someone actually saying the Homunculi were better in Brotherhood than 2003! I love both series so I never understand why people get so mad about people's preferences with one over the other.

[@TheCrazedGuitarist]

I actually liked the concept of the Homunculi better in the 2003 version. Being the result of people trying to bring back loved ones adds on extra depth. That said, the Brotherhood versions were better overall.

[@AnkhAnanku]

It adds so much to the themes of guilt and sin that get lost in FMAB. One of the main reasons I couldn’t jive with it was losing that core and going more plucky in conflict and externalized with its antagonists

[@FoxfireGreen]

I feel the same way about it as well. FMAB was a great anime, they expanded on the story, added awesome characters, the animation was top notch and with its lenght they really had the time to expand their world... but it failed to pull on my heartstrings the way 2003 did.

[@TheCrazedGuitarist]

@@AnkhAnanku Yeah I think they took a good direction with the 2003 version considering the creators were given artistic freedom. 2009 version just stripped all autonomy from the Homunculi (except Greed) and they were just pieces of Father. Kinda one note, even if their characters were cool.

[@charismacaster2429]

This is such a wild take. "Vibes > actual character writing" is such a wild stance I have to respect it in a weird way... like... pride is a good character because he's menacing? That's it? Absolutely wild lol

[@ToeSama]

03 gave the homuncili (mostly) developed characters. Brotherhood (mostly) gave the homunculi character development. I feel this distinction is what always made Brotherhood's homnculi stand out more despite them on average being one trick ponies set in their ways. They distinctly aren't human, so the nuance of engaging with humanity leads to some interesting growth and moments of reflection as the series progresses.

[@pitchlag1502]

Developed characters vs character development is an excellent way of putting it :O Granted it's been a long while since I watched either show, but 03 Homunculi feel much more characterized by the tragedies they already went through, with the seven deadly sins theming being more of a garnish than anything particularly substantial. They are walking dead both in the sense that they are reanimated corpses, but also in the way that there's no particular way forward for them. They either do their best to process what happened to them and who they are now, or fail to do so. Humans turned monsters. Brotherhood homunculi are aspects of Father and embody their respective sins to their cores, their sins are present in everything they are and do, but they still have strong personalities _outside the active plot._ You could separate them from the story or setting, but you could still have an idea of what kind of shenanigans they'd get up to under different circumstances. And of course during the plot, their interactions with the world and people around them slowly changes them. Greed's relationship with his original gang and Ling, Envy realizing his true feelings towards humanity before self-destructing and Pride's rebirth as a seemingly regular child humanize the homunculi, as well as the sins they embody, so so much. Monsters turned human.

[@juliandacosta6841]

​@@pitchlag1502all the character development the 03 humonculi go through happens throughout the show except for envy and arguably lust and greed, but I'd argue the bulk of their character development happens throughout the show, especially since we're given flashbacks for lust.

[@FoxfireGreen]

Funny, I feel exactly the opposite, the Homunculi in Brotherhood were mostly pretty uninteresting to me, not bad in any way but not as memorable compared to 2003's interpretation. But this was a very nice analysis which makes me appreciate the Brotherhood's version more. FMA for the win in all its incarnations!

[@aspieanarchist5439]

A few corrections: The Red Stones were not the true Philosopher`s Stone, merely synthetic copies made from people Dante and her minions sacrificed over the centuries mixed with Red Water to make a real stone just as the Homunculi themselves are alchemically created artificial copies of human corpses.

[@awfulpancakes]

The whole red stones/life stones/red water thing in 2003 was very strange to me, I'm glad they kept it to just philosopher's stones in brotherhood

[@genyakozlov1316]

​@@awfulpancakesIt exists to explain Edward calling Father Cornello's stone fake, which makes no sense in manga or Brotherhood but is explained by the red stones in 2003. In the manga, I guess Ed was just wrong that it was fake, despite the fact the stone rebounding never happens again.

[@aspieanarchist5439]

@@awfulpancakes The Red Water and Tringhams were actually taken from a light novel published around the same time the Manga and 2003 Anime were ongoing.

[@awfulpancakes]

@@genyakozlov1316 I completely forgot about rebounds! It's never really brought up past human transmutation and Cornello, which is definitely weird

[@awfulpancakes]

@@aspieanarchist5439 I had no idea! Do you know if it's from the same author/artist?

[@WeebGuru6]

I agree with ur characterization point cuz look at sukuna we barley know anything about his backstory but he’s got dang interesting with how he interacts with characters

[@animejunky100]

i grew up on fma 2003 it'll always have a love for it, sooo i can't be objective but if i could offer a point, i find the homunculi in 2003 are more intimidating

[@LunaticThePhantom]

Completely fair. I personally like how we often see the 2003 Homunculi work together as a unit more often which is something I wish the manga / BH did more.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@LunaticThePhantom the thing 03 gives is so much ground for dynamics with them all in fanfics BH just gives silly banter ideas mostly while am not gonna forget soon the fics about Wrath an Envy being partners one short fic was Envy describing Wraths eyes an how in time he hates how he ruined them with turning them Purple stained with the blood of his cruel livelihood that now covers this child

[@gurdimeikenskjaldi5060]

@@animejunky100 One thing I like better in terms of narrative and power dynamics is that if you don't find the key for it, you just can't kill the 03 ones. This is very interesting in setting them as the biggest among the walls that put down Ed and Al after being shown as above their age badass geniuses. The older show really always feel like it's a world way bigger than them where they never really "win" (in other ways it's what Evangelion does too with its pilot protagonists)

[@nerdcorner2680]

There is a great discussion to be had that this video hints to about depth from light being greater than depth from dark. What I mean is a series with a mix of humor, fun, and dark can get a lot deeper than a series that is dark from start to end. Fma is the latter with its’ tone never letting up, kicking the viewer when they are down, yet the emotions that come from this are weaker than the series with fun light hearted moments. And it’s due purely from contrast. Seeing a fun loving guy drinking alone and cry hits a lot harder than a guy who is always bruting and depressed. It’s why disney movies are remembered so fondly, the cute little happy deer’s parents being shot is something that really hits at the core of purity vs reality. I appreciate that Fma exists and I like it enough to call it a good show, but I dont think it’s structure lends itself to ever possibly being better than Fmab.

[@Birdhouseart]

The video has a lot of fluff at the start when mentioning about characterization, but you nailed a real important aspect about why I prefer the brotherhood take on the homunculi since they're extensions of Father. They don't need a tragic backstory because their purpose in this case is to show how much Father is always affecting the plot. With them take on the 7 sins they're basically sharing Father's characterization. Going back to Envy, you noted how takes joy with what he does, this trait mirrors Father when he was still the dwarf in the flask sarcastically f*ing with Hohenheim. Greed is another character that really shows Father's traits but on a smaller scale. Greed wanting power status money, women, status, fame, etc, but where they differ is that Greed want's to keep what he owns where Father would sacrifice for godhood. There's a lot more I can go about with the homonculi in Brotherhood, but my main point is with them being extensions, you don't need the melodramatic backstories that the '03 anime did to make memorable. Like you mentioned in the video, the backstories severed more as a crutch since the characters became one note at the finish. Great video!

[@firebornliger]

One of the big, thematic differences between the two that I don't think I've seen anyone else comment upon, would be compromising principles. Especially around the philosopher's stone. In 2003, the Brothers end up using it (from my memory) a lot more, and thus coming to accept that sometimes bad means can be turned to good ends. While in FMAB, they use it far less, and go out of their way to preserve life and stand by their principles as much as possible, taking the story toward the messages of forming bonds, even with former foes, to overcome the real evils of the world. Both interesting directions to take a story based on the thought, "at what cost would you consider too much for power?" So, yeah, both shows have their merits and flaws. Especially when comparing similar material that they covered differently.

[@guncannon109]

I think I can weigh in on this one as someone who feels (apart from Bradley) that the 03 Homunculi just hit much harder than their Brotherhood versions. I can talk for hours about all of them but we're just going to focus on Envy as (like you said in the video) he's just a damn good example. While Brotherhood Envy is fun and sadistic, he comes across as a twisted child who's eager to show you the dead bird he's carrying behind his back. Insane for sure, and I wouldn't want to cross him in a dark alleyway. 03 Envy however? It's the fact of how ultimately calm and collected he is that suggests he's done all this before. If you see him, before you so so much as utter a word in his direction he has already chosen where's going to bury your body. Brotherhood Envy looks at murder with laughter, 03 just gives a simple shrug. One is more fun to watch, the other is terrifying and just straight up unsettling.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

saying having everyone be loud an jumpy means its better is what half this video felt like was saying 03 has much you can do in fanfics from them an have it very feel super neutral while BH people really have to headcanon a ton to get much out

[@Shanks6039]

I want to watch full metal now

[@dimoned123]

I love the 2003 version, but I hate it when fans complain about certain plot points changing in brotherhood instead of staying the same as 2003 version for example, I was watching a clip when Roy admitted to unaliving winry parents and the people in the comment section were saying that They wish that this was not changed in brotherhood or how they wished brotherhood was as dark as 2003’s verson. It’s like they don’t understand that keeping these things the same would change a lot of things in the story or the fact that this wouldn’t stay true to the manga(for the most part) which is what the studio was aiming for.

[@Laiser]

Dude you don’t need to say “unaliving” this is FMA we are talking about. And even if you want to use euphemisms “taking their lives” is way better!!!

[@dimoned123]

@@Laiser does it really matter?

[@hyschara]

@@dimoned123 sounds like they had no clue why brotherhood was even made lol

[@Azrael-Legna]

Okay, I prefer the 2003 version but it makes no sense to keep the Rockbell's killer the same beings BH is the adaption of the manga which had their kill be Scar. It also makes no sense to keep things the same for that reason. Why would the manga adaptation change things to match the other version? That makes no sense.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@Azrael-Legna the killing being how it was in 03 is great I love how Roy is calling out to the brothers after telling them his trauma about that war with "Am not chasing you because I was commanded to am doing it because am pissed now why the hell did you two run away without asking for my help first" it says so much about him with one scene

[@bummedmachinist7483]

I can't see it. I'm not a fan of the whole "defined by a christian virtue/sin" trope. The Brotherhood Homunculi serve more as symbolic entities to enhance the narrative's theme than fully realized individuals with their own internal worlds (outside of Bradley and Greed). Meanwhile, 03 is very focused on it's characterization, it's essentially a character drama. I always felt like Brotherhood vs 03 was apples vs oranges. They are not the same story, they are not the same genre. You can't compare a battle shonen to a sci-fi/political drama and act like one is objectively better than the other. This really points out how vague our generalizations are when we say "X is better," what do we mean? better overall? better in this particular thing? And what specifically are we referring to when we say "X"? When people say a character is "better" a lot of the time they are usually talking about characterizations and character developments that accurately explores the human experience (these are usually guided by the story's theming, which is why 03 tends towards more serious/dramatic character interactions) you can say "aspects of these characters are better for x purposes". But if your definition of a better character is "identifiable traits that exist to provide a thematic/symbolic payoff" then damn, we can't come to an agreement because we are already working from different definitions and values. That is the problem with ever saying "X is better than X" objectively, definitively. Because usually that's not gonna be true if we examine different aspects, or work from different definitions, or observe different goal posts in our assessments. I love character driven narratives, I love realism in characterization, and I love political dramas. I don't like good vs evil narratives, I don't like plot driven narratives, and I don't like battle shonen; I'm never going to like Brotherhood because of this, no matter how it excels in its field of expertise, because those things don't interest me. These things exist in their own expertise I think everyone should keep this in mind when trying to prove one show is better than the other. You can't because depending on your metric that answer WILL change, objectively.

[@UmQasaann]

Reasons why I prefer fullmetal alchemist 2003 than Brotherhood, I hated how 2009 anime made the Homunculi Father's pawns.

[@sarafontanini7051]

i feel the majority of the "2003 hommunculi are better" stuff is msotly JUST referring to 2003 Lust. I also never understood the arguement that the Brotherhood version are more like random villains in comparison cause, like, the 2003 verison is EVEN MORE of a miniboss squad. Literally EVERYTHING the 2003 hommunculi do is for Dante and not for their own goals, and they don't really have much of a purpose beyond that. Sure Lust turns good for a while and then dies and yes Sloth grapples with her identity (before dying) but beyond that ALL the Hommunculi do in 2003 is do mysterious evil shit because Dante supposedly ordered them to do this evil shit. Hell Greed is a outlier in both versions as he isn't on their sisde and just his own. In Brotherhood yes the Hommunculi are all (aside from greed) loyal to Father, but that loyalty is better justified as they're a twisted family as well as being literally made from parts of Father's being (somehow). We are not given ANY reason why ANY of the hommunculi in 2003 obey Dante beyond vaguely the red stones and some of them having memory loss. ANd while the brotherhood version has specific roles for the hommunculi to play in the plan (the lust gluttony envy trio stir up confilcts and work to erase any evidence or people that could expose Father to the world, sloth is building the circle key to the plan, gluttony was a failed attempt at a shortcut who was used later to remove evidence, Greed would likely be a apart of the active trio had he not defied Father, Pride is acting as Father's guard dog and the protector of the circle, and Wrath is causing greater conflicts and ensuring Father has control over the country to find candidates for sacrifice) the 2003 version really didn't have much use for the hommunculi in the greater scheme beyond having lust and envy and gluttony do....random stuff to supposedly try and make philosopher stones and pride controlling the military for the same vague reason. It just feels like the version in Brotherhood have more of a reason to be there while half the hommunculi in 2003 really feel like nothing would change much for the villains if they weren't even there. I also don't really think the hommunculi are deeper characters in 2003. Yes Lust turns good and Sloth has like identity issues and wrath is wishy washy, but at the end of the day other than Lust, Wrath to an extent (though we only see him turn good in the movie and his villainy is poorly justified anyway) and Greed every single Hommunculus is STILL just a villain. SLoth tries to MURDER her former children and has to DIE to be stopped, Envy is JUST a cunt, Gluttony is just THERE (and then jsut turned into a murderous cannibal with no mind so his love for lust goes nowhere) and Bradley is like WAY more simple and villainious than the version in Brotherhood who has depth and complexity while REMAINING to the end a villain. AGain, people just remember Lust turning good and extrapolate that to ALL the hommunculi. Also I always wanted to point out how silly it is that Dante supposedly randomly found all these random ressurected people without any explanation. Like how the FUCK did she know a random ishvalan man resurrected his girlfriend? cause we are shown that she made them by physically finding them and then feeding them red stones. HOW DID SHE KNOW WHERE TO FIND THEM!?!?!

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

so you just fully did not pay attention at all an hate the themes of the show all of the characters tie closely into Eds whole development an Als too and that point on Dante is dumb it does not need a explanation also she has been doing this for centuries she has time to seek them out from clues an luck

[@sssnnnaaa]

@@senritsujumpsuit6021I don’t think characters being there for just Ed/Al’s development is nearly as interesting as them having actual purposes beyond that. That’s why the ‘03 characters feel flimsy in comparison.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

@@sssnnnaaa they have more purpose just having that connection Wrath is important to Izumi an the theme of children an growing up since after Ed spares him an actively feels bad for Envy too Wrath breaks thr cycle of trading themselves for the other the brother have trapped themselves in since Wrath is now himself something Envy rejected by turning intk tantrum Dragon managing to conqure at least a large part his births blight

[@PaintSplashProductions]

Honestly shocked 2003 Wrath didn't turn to the good guys like Brotherhood Greed did. He's the son of Ed and Al's teacher/surrogate mother figure, he could've been their unofficial little brother and learn about the world and humanity and make the Elric brothers realise how lucky they are to have each other despite all of their hardships. Wrath is such missed potential. He deserves better!

[@shadowprincess3724]

He did do that in conquers of Shambala. But. Even amongst the most diehard fans, I don't know many people who LIKE conquerors of Shambala

[@yoyo-s4r]

What I really enjoyed in FMA 2003 was the artwork ngl, I preferred it over both the manga and Brotherhood. Maybe because I grew up with it and im bias, but if the same crew that made 2003 were to jump on the Brotherhood project and keep the old colours, mood, music, dramatic art and all instead of making it more average shonen and a bit childish-looking?? The themes in OG manga and Brotherhood are so much more relatable and the pacing is one of the best in manga as a whole (also the most major flaw of 2003). So if they could merge the stylistic vision of 2003 with the manga storyline, I think it would have been chef’s kiss

[@yukarilolz]

I agree with this, I love the shit out of brotherhood but everytime I watch 2003 i always get nostalgic. I especially love the darker vibe it gives in the beginning, it feels like a Gothic tragedy at times.

[@francoperalta5986]

Its hard to compare Greed from 03 and Greed from Brotherhood. When you look at the soulful gangster in 2003 voiced by Chris Patton to the Greed that possessed Ling voiced by Troy Baker. The only thing they have in common is that they practically sacrificed themselves. One was just dragged out longer. And yeah I do prefer Selim's pride to Bradleys and Bradley as Wrath to both Bradley and Wrath from 2003. Although you left out the Sloth from Brotherhood vs Sloth from 03.

[@Sappysappster]

This video just reminded me of my belief that characterization, above all else, is the most important thing Ive been wanting to make a video essay about it, but i wanna expand my palette before i make such a bold claim As a writer, I've realized it can be easy to get caught up in how tragic, nuanced, and deep your story actually is But here's something I needed to learn: Nobody's gonna stick around because of the "depth" or themes But do you know what they WILL stick around for? The characters. Regardless of how deep they are I just got finished playing Ace Attorney, 10/10 game One of my favorite characters (Ignoring Phoenix/Maya) is Gumshoe If we're being objective here, Gumshoe has the least amount of depth out of all the characters; even Maya has a ton more depth and story highlight moments But the reason why I love him so much is just because he's so funny man; he's such a dopey but wellmeaning guy you cant help but love him Envy is such a good example to bring up because his characterization is so fun; he's clearly evil but he has such this cheeky playfulness to him that makes him fun to watch

[@Lothar-Wolfsbane]

i like your work, you can do this kind of commentary with the best of them.

[@Rojiace]

I loved the idea of 03's use of human transmutations became Homuncili from eating red stones. And how sloth was the brother's mom. The impact of that was wild to me, as Ed is forced to kill his mom after trying to bring her back. Hearing Bradley's life in Brotherhood was great. It gave that depth to his character that he was lacking in 03. Although I prefered Roy's fight with Bradley in 03. Envy is a character I love for the fact their ability to shapeshift comes from their envy towards humans in brotherhood is wonderful. But I love envy in the early parts of 03. Just did stuff, and it was compelling. Like Hughes' death hit harder in 03 cause we got to know Hughes and his wife, and Envy doing the deed just hit hard. As I write this I figure that I would love a combination of both series. For the homunculus are a lot more engaging in 03, but their depth in FMAB is sorely missing for a lot of them.

[@creedecriswell634]

I think they’re better too! Brotherhood sure they’re not as tragic but they’re not evil for no reason. Sure 03 has a stronger start but think brotherhood has a much stronger narrative over all.

[@sarafontanini7051]

honestly the majority of the hommunculi in 2003 feel 'evil for no reason', like at least in brotherhood the hommunculi feel familial loyalty towards each and other and Father, but we aren't given much of a reason why the completely unrelated hommunculi follow Dante in 2003 beyond memory loss and "uhhhh red stones", and they feel overall superfluous to the story as a whole since they arne't given the specific purpose the brotherhood versions had,

[@genyakozlov1316]

The last eleven episodes of FMA 2003 are peak fiction. It's arthouse in the way of Serial Experiments Lain or Ergo Proxy but more grounded. A grounded narrative which doesn't go surreal can never compare to that.

[@creedecriswell634]

@@genyakozlov1316 Ok

[@creedecriswell634]

I feel both versions are classics!

[@IWestrada]

Sloth and Lust are the only ones that get more interesting realizations of their chracters in 2003 than in Brotherhood. If Lust lived longer in Brotherhood, I don't think anyone would be calling the 2003 versions better.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

how the hell is just them Wrath is the biggest his existence does a lot for Ed an Al the scene in the movie even with a great scene cut out for studio BS this line is amazing "I know your planning to offer your own life as price for saving your brother I don't ever wanna see that happen NEVER AGAIN please I just wanna go home your mommy is.. NOW"

[@juliandacosta6841]

I would say gluttony also is better in 03. And I can't imagine brotherhood doing anything better with lust than her solo episode in 03

[@l.n.3372]

I'll be honest, I read the manga first and then was upset the 2003 anime wasn't the same. Every time I watched that show, it just bothered me at how much was different. When brotherhood was announced, I was so happy and I ended up loving it just as much as the manga. But if I'd never read the manga, I'd probably have been fine with the 2003 anime in a vacuum

[@LunaticThePhantom]

@@l.n.3372 When I initially watched '03, I'd just gotten done with BH and I feel that initially clouded my enjoyment of the older version so I feel your pain there.

[@l.n.3372]

@LunaticThePhantom Further confession: when I read the manga, one of my favorite villains was Kimblee and I hated the 2003 design and story for that Kimblee. I love the sleek, smooth criminal, nihilistic Kimblee of the manga. I also really disliked how they changed the origin story of some characters. Ditto the changes to the hommunculi too. I just felt like the original show branched off way too drastically. I get that it was probably the point and all, but it made me, a fan of the manga, like it less.

[@matt0044]

I very much appreciate this measured response to a popular take that's often taken for granted. Given you views on HxH's filler, I'm curious as to your views on FMA 03's second half and Anime original ending since that's a sort of discussion that really gets out of hand in Anime circles.

[@russjordan6186]

Keep making content, you have a really magnetic personality and style that shows through your content

[@Pangora2]

When I was a younger lad, I was a creative type and we all got together to do creative things. But one persistent annoyance was one group within our group insisted all characters needed flaws, and this did result in everyone in their worlds having horrible tragic backstories and bad things happen to them...but not so much in the way of character. They seem to be less open to the idea you can have a great character without killing their parents and giving them a scar their relatives gave them and some extra trauma from the bargain bin at Writes-a-lot. I think 2003 is best when seen as a Edward character study, and less so with everything else.

[@Ramires213]

The reason why Wrath turns antagonistic towards Ed, Al and especially Izumi after being fed red stones is because it is symbolic for humanity falling into sin after eating from the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Envy is the serpent Devil who tempts humanity with the forbidden fruit and Hohenheim as his creator plays the role of God. This is why Envy despises Hohenheim as his creator and Edward (read: humanity) as his father's preferred creation, rooting Envy's hatred into Christian mythology. There is a great essay on reddit by Dioduo called "Envy is the Serpent Tempter of Eden. Take a look at this scene" that delves into this. Wrath is made as a contrast to Edward, whose fall into sin is represented by his failed human transmutation of his mother, which results in the creation of Sloth who symbolizes Edward's sin. Wrath wants to take Edward's body for himself and embraces Sloth as his mother even though she is a fake, identifying himself through Edward and his sin instead of who he was created to be by Izumi. It is an important part of Edward's journey to acknowledge and confront his sin by fighting Sloth, which is why he ultimately rejects the idea that Sloth is his mother. The one who sets him on this path is Greed, who dies to teach Edward how to fight his sin by showing how a homunculus can be killed. Greed represents Jesus Christ, who was first betrayed by his disciple Judas just as Greed is betrayed by Kimblee. He was then unjustly crucified by humanity for heresy, even though he came as mankind's savior, which is exactly what occurs when Edward kills Greed believing him to be evil, only to realize moments later that Greed was only helping him. Jesus died so that humanity could overcome sin and death, which Edward then does by killing Sloth and being resurrected after Envy effectively kills him. Just as Wrath hates Izumi as his creator and Sloth tries to kill Edward and Alphonse as hers, Edward too hates his creator in his father Hohenheim, and the resentment of one's creator in the story generally represents a rejection of God. Notice that Edward eventually lets go of his resentment against Hohenheim, just as Wrath ultimately embraces Izumi inside the Gate as he dies, whereas Envy never lets go of his resentment for Hohenheim, and readily dies in Shamballa just to have the pleasure of killing him out of spite. To put a point on it, the homunculi in 2003 are not only great for how tragic and conflicted they are, but for the psychological role they play in relation to the protagonists, as well as the mythological role they play in the structure of the narrative. While most probably wouldn't be able to put it into words, I think these symbols are nevertheless identified and appreciated by many on an unconscious level.

[@Dattebayo04]

Thank you!!! I've never heard of this connection to Christianity. I grew up Christian and FullMetal Alchemist taught me the 7 deadly sins before I learned about them in real life when I was a kid lol.

[@Ramires213]

@@Dattebayo04 More on the homunculi in 2003. I think human transmutation is symbolic for man eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden. It is forbidden for an alchemist to perform human transmutation, and performing it grants the alchemist forbidden knowledge of alchemy, just like eating the forbidden fruit granted man knowledge of good and evil. This much is also true of the manga. But human transmutation also results in the birth of a homunculus in the 2003 version. When Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, sin and death entered the world, and the homunculi are named after the seven deadly sins. When Edward acknowledges Sloth as his sin and his responsibility, he is acknowledging humanity's sin which is the reason man isn't allowed to live forever. This is why when Alphonse turns into the Philosopher's Stone which can grant eternal life, Edward can't bring himself to use the Stone and resolves instead to destroy it. When Edward is stabbed by Envy, he dies to sin. Edward is then resurrected with the Philosopher's Stone, but not before Envy leaves him through the Gate, and so he is resurrected without sin. I think tying the homunculi to characters like Edward, Alphonse, Izumi and Hohenheim does a good job in internalizing the conflict against the homunculi, which is appropriate since the battle against sin is fought within oneself. By contrast, the homunculi in the manga are external to the protagonists, not really connected to them on a personal level, which makes the battle against sin more detached than it is in 2003. This is strange to me, since the whole point of focusing on sin is to bring the attention to the evil within oneself instead of focusing on the evil of others. This is also true of Harry Potter where, without spoiling too much, one of the seven manifestations of sin is very closely connected to the primary representative of humanity in that story. In the manga, they are all connected only to Father, who is the villain, and so there is little self-reflection required when it comes to defeating the homunculi. To the manga's credit, there is some internal conflict with the characters that comes to a head when defeating some of the homunculi, but I don't think it is as strong as the heavy emphasis on personal responsibility in the 2003 version.

[@ajergely6230]

⁠@@Ramires213 the homunculi being tied to the various characters does make it more personnal to have to deal with them, but i don’t think the confrontations of 03 make for a very good illustration of the overcoming of sin. Yes, Sloth is the embodiment of the brother’s sin and as such, they have to deal with her, but…sloth isn’t their sin ; while one could argue she was born from their sloth (tristitia), Edward is consistently portrayed as diligent, persevering even, and more prideful than anything else. Yet he doesn’t kill Pride : Mustang, who isn’t really prideful, does ; Edward kills Greed and Sloth, which he doesn’t embody throughout the show. The remaining homunculi only meet their end in Conqueror of Shambala, which I admit to not have seen, so I cannot talk about it. Meanwhile, I consider the overcoming of sin (as in the evil within) as one of the strongest themes of Brotherhood, and that is best illustrated by Edward’s battling with pride, shown through three distinct ways. The first and least subtle of them is obviously the short jokes that are in almost each episode and which end with Edward acknowledging his stature and how having been the shorter one in most engagements helps him understand how Pride fights and defeat him. Blunt, but still there as a demonstration of letting go of one’s ego and knowing oneself. The second is his interactions with other characters, through which he is forced to learn to trust and rely on others, but also to let them do their own thing, and the payoff for this one is very gradual and while shown right before the fight with Pride it is not restricted to it. The third is his confidence in alchemy (and by extension in himself as an alchemist) : he dismisses the warnings against human transmutation as a cover up for his predecessors’ failures and lack of skill, and pays the price for it, but does not learn just yet. He understood that human transmutation shouldn’t be attempted and why, but stills swear by it, as shown by both his speech to Rose and his approach to his quest of recovering their bodies : he seeks a solution in Shou Tucker’s biological alchemy, then in Dr. Marcoh’s research and the philosopher’s stone, and then again in alkahestry ; an alchemical solution to his alchemically induced condition. It is only with Alphonse’s self-transmutation that not only he understands that the solution could be of non-alchemical nature, but even gives up the skill that was so important to him in order to achieve his goal. This is why this duel fits : pride was his sin and he showed signs of overcoming it. Similarly, even though Brotherhood Sloth is barely even a character, having Armstrong defeat him fits into the theme because sloth is perceived as his sin by others (including his own sister), seeing him as a coward who fled from his duties as a soldier, and by himself because he simply walked away instead of protesting what he believed was abhorrent ; a sin he has now overcame since he is marching on Central alongside his sister and her soldiers to thwart Father’s plan. Scar killing Wrath is rather straightforward and I don’t think it is necessary to add anything. Greed twists it a little by having the homunculus be the one to overcome the sin he embodies, resulting in his own demise still, while the human, Ling, instead has to be the counterbalance to his sin-defined personnality in order to keep control, contrasting with his rather greedy goal (To Be King). Lust could be argued to be there for Mustang’s lust for revenge, though this is weaker than for the previous sins, Envy’s death involves overcoming some flaws that aren’t envy and Gluttony isn’t related to any sort of overcoming of sin subplot. So yea, Pride has nothing to do with Edward, Sloth has nothing to do with Armstrong, Wrath is the cause of Scar’s wrath rather than its consequence, and Greed has nothing to do with Ling…but each of these homunculi’s deaths symbolises a the end of a character’s journey of overcoming the corresponding sin. IMHO, more fitting to the theme of overcoming one’s own, personnal, inner flaws than Edward killing Sloth which doesn’t really correspond to his sin.

[@nickelakon5369]

Imo brotherhood and 03 are just as dark as eachother The difference is that in 03 the characters often wallpw in it, where as the brotherhood characters constantly strive to overcome it. I mean seriously, what could be as dark as being a knowing captive of the big bad. The main characters in brotherhood are in a far more complicated postion in brotherhood than they are in 03 (mostly cause Father is actually a bigger threat than Dante), and yet they seemingly effortlessly subvert them

[@LegnaiaUnderground]

In case you make a video about the content from the manga not included in Brotherhood, it could be nice if you may be able to find some source: the most common thing we hear about why the first part of Brotherhood is so fast is "the authors assumed in 2009 people already watched 2003 and so were eager to get to the new stuff"... But I also read someone mentioning some (true or not idk) interview of one of the creators saying the existence of 2003 didn't influence their choices for 2009... And I also read somewhere that the reason for the rushed start of FMAB would have been that initially it was planned to be a shorter series so they started culling a lot of manga stuff, then they decided to switch to more episodes and so started cutting less. It would be nice to have some more official statement, but probably it isn't easy to find, if it exists at all...

[@Mr.Lubbox-Lobsterlegz1]

Was surprised to see the channel sup count was so small for such a quality video, this is good stuff man keep it up with content like this you’ll be up in no time 💯

[@Teddy-k5y]

THANK YOU! You perfectly summed up my feelings on this whole argument. I watched Brotherhood this year and immediately went to watch 03, and hated how the Homunculi were portrayed compared to Brotherhood. Especially with Brotherhood Greed, Wratg, and Envy being some of my favorite characters in that show.

[@lollybirdy]

12:52 that reminds me of a line gigguk said in one of his analysis videos on aot and about how good isyamas writing was. He simply put his characters in interesting scenarios to see how they would react.

[@crazyinvaderfangirl1]

I like them in both. They’re completely different and awesome in both series. However, there are complex characters in 2003 with their own story arcs and motivations and in brotherhood. They’re just one dimensional villains so in my opinion, they’re better in 2003, but hey, that’s just my opinion. Except for greed and wrath, they’re still good in 2003 for sure. I feel like 2003 was more of a character study than brotherhood.

[@Jennifer-vl6po]

Envy in brotherhood is bursting with personality I love him so much

[@WorthlessWinner]

As a big 2003 fan I went in thinking i'd strongly disagree, but I agree with most of what you say. I think the "summary of who the characters are" will stay with you in memory more than the "moment to moment interactions" and since most 2003 fans, so we might be tricked by our memories into thinking 2003 was better than it was because it sounds better on paper (in the ways that stick in memory more).

[@ranensarmiento6431]

I’d also like to mention that I prefer the 03 homunculi cause their method of death was a lot harder to do with transforming transmutation on them. Whereas in brotherhood yes they were hard to kill but everyone could kill them after exhaustion. To me, this made the 03 watch for me feel like the villains were better In the sense that it was an unstoppable force. A good villain I’d like to mention is Madara, one of the key aspects that made him such s good villain was just that he was formidable and had to have a deus ex machina to continue the show. And all you could do is move around it or slow it down. And the means of slowing down I felt also impacted their character cause ed talking to them got more growth out of them. In the brotherhood version, each homunculi got their own death, yes the significance of each was interesting to watch, but it geniuenely felt like each character was able to be stopped, where in the 03 version it felt impossible.

[@YouluC]

They can die the same way in 03. Lust says this to Wrath when she tried to kill him. That’s also part of why Mustang was able to kill Pride without the circle that made the others expel the red stones, he repeatedly had to burn him alive. The weakness just made it much easier to kill them quickly.

[@Laiser]

Holy shoot. You took the words out of my mouth with the discourse around FMA03. I love both series, but anytime it is time to discuss FMA03, the loudest fans pretty much just say it's better because it's '"darker" and "more mature", which is something I cannot stand because it robs FMA03 of many of its own merits by overshadowing them with what a child thinks maturity is. I've also seem similar sentiment for HxH '99 VS 11, although people usually restrict that discussion down to the art style. I've finished '11 but am yet to do a full watch-through of '99 so I can't really comment on that.

[@hyschara]

@@Laiser to be fair alot of us were more 'children' than 'adult' when we watched fma03 a whole 21 years ago lol

[@h0110wkn1ght-y]

The KZbin gods blessed me with a criminally underated channel! +1 sub

[@higurashikai09]

Omg THANK YOU, I hated the Humunculi in '03 and that isn't even bias because as a kid, I didn't know of the Manga the anime was based off of, so the anime was the only story I knew. I hated Sloth and Wrath especially and I didn't like the ending. I was estatic when I found out that there was a manga and it was different. I immediately read the manga and absolutely loved it.

[@Laiser]

19:27 That's cause he didn't even die in the main series, he died in Shamballa after turning into a giant snake and was killed by Nazis to make the portal. What a weird movie man.

[@lionheart4424]

Totally agree with you. I also was emotionally moved when Envy got defeated near the end. And I absolutely HATE envy for all the right reasons lol.

[@gimmeyourrights8292]

I don't watch Full Metal Alchemist, but I am thinking about giving it a watch. I'm trying to write my own characters so I'm always looking for inspiration.

[@ultraspinalki11]

The 2003 version of the Homunculi actually made me pity them due to their human origins. Their inner struggles to deny or desire what they once were, leading to actual development like Lust or tense conflict with Sloth and Wrath. Meanwhile, I didn't care at all for the Brotherhood Homunculi because they're literal monsters born from an even greater monster (dwarf in the flask). Seeing Edward and his friends give mercy to Envy and Pride despite their horrendous crimes left me completely baffled and livid.

[@confusedfrog294]

I agree with your points about FMA but what you said about Muichiro felt like a personal attack 😭 He’s my favorite character in Demon Slayer and was way before his sad backstory was told. I just like his feeling of detachment from the other characters and reality in general. Also, my autistic self relates to his deadpan voice all the time and how he spends all of the hashira meeting just staring at the clouds. He’s me fr I do think that not just his, but all of the characterization in the Swordsmith Village arc feels a bit shaky, like so many characters just suddenly switch up their personalities very suddenly. (Mitsuri fighting Hantengu and Kotetsu training Tanjiro) Anyways I know that’s not what this video is about but Muichiro (and Mitsuri) are my favorite Hashira and I love their characterizations so I wanted to ramble

[@sims_ran]

Okay fine, you convinced me. I subscribed

[@nox6687]

I randomly got a sponsored link to this video, it was pretty good 👍

[@LunaticThePhantom]

Glad you liked it!

[@Scotty2Thotty]

Yeah me too. I subscribed. I’m your 66th sub. So when you make it big it’s August 15 2024. I’m a time capsule

[@beanMcboi]

@@Scotty2Thottysame, I’m the 202th :3

[@AdamTheGameBoy]

It sounds like what you preferred might be their ratio of acting to reacting. Characters who primarily react are by extension more passive and less interesting, but active characters are driving the plot or passionately engaged with what is going on around them. They pull the spotlight to themselves. Most villains and anti-heroes are popular because they are active and driving the story, especially when paired with a wishywashey, fish-out-of-water everyman protagonist that the story happens to. Generally, a mostly reactive protagonist is a bad protagonist. The way you describe 2003 sounds like you see the characters as being in more of a status quo where they aren't constantly pursuing a goal with a clear plan. Then in brotherhood, every character is fixated on their goals almost constantly and they carry themselves as such.

[@EndorphinSauce]

This was a great video and subject matter. I think you never brought up though how Brotherhood’s concept for the Homunculi was more interesting as a result of the concept of them being a race that could not comprehend the full spectrum of emotions that humans fully possess and thus them being existences that were inherently flawed and the actions they committed were out of an inability to understand concepts they didn’t possess, the one exception of them being greed who went on to take his aspect and evolve. It also leaves the possibilities for each character’s development much more open because they’re not fully understood like in 2003. The 2003 versions are way too unambiguous and I think the fact that they’re tragic and relatable ultimately hurts them. In Brotherhood they as a form of existence are alien from us and that’s inherently more interesting than them just being us but with tragic backstories. This even extends to Father who himself is a homunculus that Hoenheim created and the concept serves as the downfall of the main antagonist in the end and the theme remains prevalent throughout the series instead of feeling disjointed, which like you said doesn’t make 2003 uninteresting or unenjoyable but puts brotherhood above it. I feel like you were setting up for this point and I was waiting for you to say it but unfortunately we never got there. You touched on the characterizations of the brotherhood cast making them better which I also thought was good and touched on the characters stories from 2003 but I feel like another section dedicated to the analysis of how the theme of the homunculi serves the story better would have been good. Nonetheless awesome video, I honestly would not have even thought about this if I didn’t see it 👏

[@PlayPodOG]

im glad you said "It". people think FMA 2003 is better cause its darker focusing on how "deep" it is. but thats why i actually don't like 2003. it is TOO depressing and it feels like no matter what happens everything goes wrong. efforts are wasted and people suffer. there is no momentum shift. no balance. even the ending just sucks. brotherhood is dark but with a glimmer of hope and we get to see what the brothers do actually changes the world for the better despite how powerful our enemy is. 2003 got me into FMA but brotherhood is just...better

[@RuneRelations]

Will hear the argument. (Read the title the video wrong thought this arguing the opposite. FMA:B03) When it comes to 2003 I’m a bit more forgiving for its story. (Not saying it’s better at all) Since I bet it’s tricky making your own fanfic with characters who haven’t been fully flesh out. Then the person who initially made said characters and generally have idea as what those characters are about can improve of on the mistakes your take on the character has. Further making you look like a hack. Another thing to think about in terms of FMA is that the original anime ended in October of 2004 while the Manga it was initially based on ended in 2010

[@level20art50]

I always tell people to watch about the first 10 episodes of 2003, then jump into Brotherhood from the beginning, keeping the context that it skips over in mind. Yoki ends up being important, and seeing Yusewell gives a lot of context. Without it, people will say "Who the hell is that?" when Yoki shows up later on in Brotherhood and starts talking about how Ed ruined his life. I also do really think that 2003 did the Nina scene better. You get a full episode of buildup as you see Ed and Al studying for the alchemy exam (another thing 2003 did better) while living with Tucker for at least 6 months. It's only when the next episode comes and Tucker starts acting creepy that you get the feeling that something bad is about to happen. And then, when the show takes off its gloves and punches you super hard in the gut, it becomes the stuff of nightmares.

[@LegnaiaUnderground]

I would suggest them watching the whole 2003 (+the movie if they want) before watching fmab, not just the first 10 episodes. Reasons: - It's a shame starting something and dropping it. The FMA2003 story is still worth watching imo. - It's not like they have to watch one episode a week, they can finish it in two weeks. - Of the first 10 episodes, two aren't that good imo (4 and 10, which I think were written by the same guy). I don't think such two episodes give a good idea about the overall quality of the show. - (spoiler) After watching the bittersweet ending of 2003, experiencing the basically happy ending of fmab is even more satisfying. You reach the final episodes of fmab really thinking "I hope this Ed, Al and Winry happily reunite this time", and the series delivers. Just m2c.

[@najpotenicewolf934]

I agree with the Nina subplot. 2003 version actually made it more impactful, as it allowed brothers to truly bond with Nina before she's turned into a chimera. I feel it's also a little better at depicting the actual horror of it from Nina's perspective. She's clearly hurt, scared and confused. I also like a lot of early 2003 episodes that depict the early stages of Edward's time in the military. Especially how well it portrays that despite being an alchemical genius, Ed is still just an immature kid at that point of the story.

[@dficwriter]

I feel like 2003 has so many good ideas which are all wasted + wasted characters like Al + confusing and unnecessary stuff like our real world instead of actual answers that it makes the show worth dropping. It’s not good, never will be, and outside of pure nostalgia has no redeeming qualities. The writers didn’t know where they were going and even how their world works.

[@awkwardsquirtle]

They did a good job on Hugh's characterization and his death

[@dficwriter]

@@awkwardsquirtle yeah, because he was the only one who died before the manga (for the time) ended and so they just couldn't mess him up later. Literally everyone is fine or almost fine until his death. Then, with no source material, they had no clue and started to do wild stuff that made no sense.

[@fuahuahuatime5196]

Sorry, but you're not giving Bones enough credit for the homunculi. They did a fantastic job. Just because something is tragic, doesn't mean it can't be great on those merits, and just because it isn't the source material doesn't mean it can build off it and develop it's own story further. That's exactly what they did, and exactly the reason why the homunculi in 2003 are better than in Brotherhood.

[@MegaHerpthederp]

It followed the source material that wasn't finished in 2003. That's it, I just save you an extra 23 minutes for a video that could be summed up that simply.

[@TheArcSet]

Huh, that's not a take I can say I've heard before. Ok, baity as it is, I'll watch. Yeah, I can see that, like the series as a whole, 2003 has great peaks, but only some of the homunculi were developed, with that development and potential left to hold the rest up. A good video. Thanks for this.

[@ronispadez]

Your voice is nice to listen to :D

[@3DSCarnaje]

For what you talked about with wrath at around 8:50, in my head I would think that consuming the philosophers stones showed them their past, albeit perhaps twisted in a way that makes it seem like abandonment, which in fairness it kind of is. I've only seen brotherhood so I don't know if there's anything in '03 that could build off of this or contradict it, but I feel like it would make decent sense. Plus the philosophers stones have always felt to me like they have a strong connection to the gate, furthering my reasons for thinking of the answer I did.

[@MuchoLucho]

I think that no version has a definitive "better" set of Homunculi. Some are better in 2003 (like Sloth and Lust), while others are better in Brotherhood (Greed, Bradley). And they both got some homunculi that...honestly don't add much to the story, like 09' Sloth, and both Gluttonys.

[@en3677]

It really is a case of strong concept vs strong execution. Retrospectively I prefer the 03 hominculi because they're more thought provoking in what they thematically present, but manga/Brotherhood are * way * more enjoyable and engaging while I'm going through my annual rewatces

[@eyezoryt7905]

You know how people say in 2003 fma vids like oh takeing fmab off its high horse. Thats how i feel about 2003 its horse is taller then the clouds

[@chiloperri3194]

Hot take but I think Envy's conclusion in brotherhood was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Envy gets beaten by the group and starts screaming how could I lose your all a bunch of pathetic humans, and then all of a sudden ed is like ohhh i get it your jealous of us. The they flash back to a bunch of scenes of Envy talking about how humans are pathetic and worthless and apparently those scenes are supposed to imply he's jealous of humans. It makes no sense, we have no reason to think envy is jealous of humans any more than he just hates humans. Literally they show just a bunch of unrelated scenes and are like "Yup you hate humans which means you must be jealous"

[@Mr2dmonkey]

Great video. i really enjoyed it.

[@Jebbtube]

I do think the origin of the Homunculi is better than Brotherhood, but Brotherhood is better overall.

[@katerynasirko1832]

20:46 makes me think about how when you define yourself only by the things you hate, it doesn't actually make you cool or interesting. I would argue that what a person loves and enjoys has much more depth. Somehow in storytelling we often equate sad/angry=deep, but I would like to counterargue that happy/kind/loving=deep. It takes much more effort to be happy than it is to be frustrated.

[@fireboltpt]

Genuinely a super interesting and well done video. Hopefully this comment helps boost it in the Algorithm.

[@beanMcboi]

God I love channels like these! I hope you’re into Overlord or K Project too 🙏

[@LunaticThePhantom]

@@beanMcboi Haven't checked out Overlord yet sadly but I've always wanted to give it a shot. Watched K Project years ago tho and loved it ^^

[@chewbaccasan442]

hot take but i prefer the ending of 2003 over brotherhood

[@SullivanDLuffy]

Trash take.

[@SuperElizabeth4ever]

tbh i feel like all the discussion i’ve seen has a pretty strong consensus that brotherhood is significantly better but it’s probably still worth it to watch 03 because it’s still pretty good

[@JohnnyTightlips2007]

If there's one thing I wouldn't mind seeing. It would be seeing a new attempt where the series uses the best from both.

[@Wuffskers]

As someone that watched 03 on adult swim and then read the manga and then watched brotherhood I would rate them accordingly: Brotherhood Greed > 03 Greed it should be pretty obvious why, he does legitimately have way more character in Brotherhood Brotherhood Gluttony > 03 Gluttony but not really by much imo, they're kind of the same character Brotherhood Envy > 03 Envy because the extra connection to the Elrics isn't capitalized on enough, there was a ton of potential but not enough payoff Brotherhood Bradley > 03 Bradley but I do think he's essentially the same character as just an unstoppable intimidating force, but they add a bit more complexity especially with his feelings about his wife in Brotherhood. Selim ≈ 03 Wrath, even though they're different sins/characters they're the most analogous imo, and idk personally I found Wrath really tragic and Selim is mostly just another big scary threat but they do give him enough depth to make him roughly as interesting as wrath for me 03 Sloth >> Brotherhood Sloth, Brotherhood Sloth is practically nothing, he could be a monster of the week, a glorified henchman, it's almost unfair to compare him to the character of 03 Sloth and the dramatic tension between her and the Elrics 03 Lust >>> Brotherhood Lust, Brotherhood Lust basically occupies the same role as 03 Greed, she's basically completely a device to introduce the viewer to the mechanics of homunculi, but she's an almost nothing character outside of that, meanwhile 03 Lust remains one of the most tragic and memorable characters I've ever seen, and I really enjoyed seeing her dilemma about what to do so it's really no contest. I think when people say the 03 Homunculi are better they are mainly thinking of Lust and probably Sloth second.

[@ct2136]

Tragic Backstory isn't a personality or a character, but media keeps insisting it is 😂 Certainly easier and cheaper to write. Really excellent video

[@LocalCryptidGhostdoll]

I don't even watch FMA, and this is fascinating

[@husseinrose4883]

Aizen is a great example. All of his actions inform us of the kind of person he is. And the little amount we know of his past makes complete sense with the man he later became. A fully realized character.

[@rough_builds]

Someone talks about FMA? Here take my sub. It’s not much but it’s an honest work.

[@LadyLeomon]

Like #800 for talking about some of the best antagonists in anime 😄😄😄

[@lunellla]

i personally adore wrath and envy in 2003 because of their designs and personalities but i also realllyyy enjoy how brotherhood re-characterized them ^n^ i kind of wish envy's design stayed the same but im just exetremely biased because of how much i like them >n

[@deenman23]

wile i enjoyed brotherhood more,i will die on the hill that the homunculi origin in the first anime was so much better than father just vomiting his emotions

[@randomgamer625]

And what’s the manga version then?