Why THE HORUS HERESY stuck with 7ed, and how we updated it!

[@kerbal666]

This guy knows his shit more than a lot of 40K channels. I like the way this chap talks about the inner workings of GW and not just the lore of the setting. I didn't even know a prominent fellow died. Learning the human side of the creation of 40 K is such a breath of fresh air

[@Nortonius_]

Yes 100%, he’s willing to look within the setting of course but also at the human/biz/etc factors in the big world we all live in that shaped the setting. More analytical

[@kerbal666]

@@Psytrome yes I didn't

[@IKMojito]

Bit late to the party but it only just clicked to me that you're Arbitor Ian from the forums. Good times, warms my heart to see the hobby still going along and the project still being worked on

[@TheOneTheyCallJack]

For me it’s real shame that the 30k mechanicum models haven’t got 40K rules, then again given how much competitive attention Admech get I don’t see it happening soon

[@steweygrrr]

With the AdMech there's the excuse that during the schism on Mars, the traitors released Daemons into the loyalists data networks so tons of information was lost meaning that most things from the era of the Heresy wouldn't have survived to the 'modern' era.

[@geordiepaul3099]

Alan was a force of nature. He was brilliant. A loss to all of us who were his friends abs those that worked on the badab and Heresey with him. He was working on/planning on 8th. But he just couldn’t complete it in the time line. It’s great you guys took stuff on.👍🏻

[@DavidSzar]

I don’t play 40k… or any other kind of warhammer and for some reasons I love watching these videos. Keep it up please!

[@dementiamaster12]

Oh, I remember how it started.... now I have a room filled with paint and miniatures

[@basler2513]

I'v been into warhammer for almost 30 years now. Still haven't played a game.

[@jollybucket669]

Same

[@pendantblade6361]

It's always fascinating to learn this side of 40k - you really don't hear this kind of stuff much elsewhere on YT.

[@Balerion84]

My 2 cents as a new 40k player (started in 2019, so during 8th, last year got also in to 30k). And even though it's amazing job you guys did, I really hope 30k never changes to the same ruleset as 40k. I got into 30k precisely because it's different. If it was the same, but in different color, I wouldn't get into it, since I'm already playing 40k. What 30k needs is just some cleaning up here and there and some updates but I hope they continue building on 7th. I want the 2 systems to be different. The games have different feel and I like that. It's refreshing.

[@beatsandskiesmtg]

Not interested in 8th/9th rules sets, am more interested in 3rd-7th so consequently am interested in HH. If the rules get updated to be in line with 40k then I’ll not bother.

[@EbonyBrotherhood]

Absolutely yes. I don't know how people can be so brazen to complain about gatekeeping and then in the same breath say "We want to change EVERYTHING about how this works."

[@EdwardWB97]

@James Gibens pretty much. Back in the day people, at least at my club, including myself, played fantasy, lotr and 40k because they were different systema

[@kaibe5241]

9th edition is actually quite good. Their biggest problem is rule bloat. And they’ll never solve that because they’ll never wind back the codexes.

[@Henderburn2]

As a relatively recent player, I really like the videos that give historical context for the different versions and fan reactions. Nice work!

[@Slanse]

Somehow, and with hindsight, believing that the edition you are currently playing in is the perfected version of it and and any change will ever be for the worst in the future is a pretty warhammer 40k ( and specificaly mechanicus) thing to believe :P

[@playersinexile72]

I love how what you are saying about 7th Ed could be you talking about 9th right now.

[@Mikazuchireborn]

I looked at the Titans and agreed with them for the most part, but if can make a suggestion: When firing weapons with the MACRO profile, after resolving all damage on the target unit, roll a D6 for every other unit within 6” of the target unit; on a 4+ that unit suffers D3 hits using the weapon’s profile. I borrowed most of this from the 8th Edition Warlord Sunfury Plasma Annihilator, in the absence of big blast templates. During that edition, it was the only gun that really felt like it was doing widespread damage. If you're shooting a tank with a massive titan weapon, it makes sense that anyone standing nearby (friend OR foe) isn't gonna go unscathed.

[@nekrataali]

As a grog, we didn't like AoS because it was "dumbed down" per say, we didn't like it because we lost our rank-n'-flank fantasy game. There's a ton of skirmish fantasy wargames out there, including Warhammer's Mordheim. WHFB really felt one of a kind. It was only when it died did we see people try and create replacements. I think God of Battles is a really good example of how you can simplify a ruleset (movement is just move your champion, then form your unit around the champion, with differences between formed and skirmish units) without feeling like you're losing depth. We also didn't like being told to switch over to circle bases. It was obvious they were planning on replacing everything when the Stormcast were previewed. Anywho, I think Ian knows all of this and probably went through it himself but is able to see where AoS improves in the areas where WHFB failed. I have to wonder if 7th. would have been better without flyers, superheavies, formations, and soup. Flyers were a huge put-off for me during 7th. I also just didn't have the money to dump on the formations and some of them were stupid (IIRC there was one if you field a company of marines you get free rhinos and drop pods?).

[@matthewcampbell3146]

I believe a game called Kings of War has taken the place of WHFB. I understand why people miss it, but I also understand why it was dropped and why the story was moved along to AoS. It sold worse than the paint range.

[@nekrataali]

@@matthewcampbell3146 Kings of War is good. They solved the problem of needing too many models. Essentially, your unit is just one "model" (even though it may have multiple miniatures in it) and it loses stats as it takes more wounds. This is a really cool mechanic since it allows people to basically make each unit in their army a diorama. By the end of 8th. Edition WHFB, it was obvious why the game wasn't growing. Increases in cost, higher model counts due to lower points and optimal units being death stars, etc. all meant you could spend $200 and not even have a playable, 500 point army. Night Goblins, for example, came in a box of 20 for $45. You generally want a unit of at least 40 in 8th. and this doesn't include netters or fanatics. That single core choice was over $100 once you include all the necessary upgrades....but it was only about 250 points worth of models. Everyone I knew who played it (including myself) had either got their models second hand or had been playing the game for a long time and amassed their collection over years. Kings of War understood this and it reflects in their design. You can still have individual models to represent damage done, but you can also slap down 7 cavalry models and call it a unit of 10.

[@betobrakmo9157]

I think what I like best about 30k being set in essentially 3rd - 7th edition 40k rules set is that it’s an actual older set of rules. It’s almost like continuity that in the age of the heresy they fought like ancient times. Maybe I defend 7th to much. I started 40k when I was nine and I just think 7th edition was the final expansion of my childhood love of 40k.

[@EdwardWB97]

Damn right boys

[@fullgreys0n738]

Yeah, you defend it a bit to much. I startet back then when i was 13, with the second edition. And back then we had problems to go over to the 3rd edition... No one relay think that the 2nd edition is a "good" edition, but it has still its niche.

[@neilg6675]

It's pretty standard to have a go at those that had a problem with aos replacing fantasy, and 8th ed 40k, but if you like a game and they just change it, that's going to happen. If someone changed the rules of chess to those of Ludo, I think alot of people that liked chess wouldn't like chess anymore. 7th was far from perfect, but neither is 8th/9th. The simplification of the rules is a myth, they're just complicated in a different way. Sure the core rules are far fewer, but that's just meant rules are put in different places, for example you've got to remember how one model affects a load of other models within certain distances far more, and then how that combines with others also affecting others rules. I find 8th/9th impossible to play if you don't know what your opponents rules are, so you have to buy endless codexes and supplements. I liked 8th when it was just indexes, but I lost interest as it just made the same mistakes again.

[@FairieSword]

Would agree with this 8th\9th arent less complicated their complication is just in different places. 8th was a bit different but with the way I see rulebooks being released in 9th it seems to carry just as much rulebloat now as 7th ever did

[@sbs3000]

While 8th/9th were a little easier to wrap my brain around than 7th edition (or were when my group was playing pre-pandemic), I must concede that my brain is in a different (let's say "more advanced") state than it was when I was playing much earlier editions. I am forced to admit this might be part of my problem. 😄

[@Sandstorm11911]

I like easy game systems like 8th Edition. But I like the wackiness and simulation character of 7th too. I understand that people can miss that simulation character and the little things that do not make much of a difference but feel right. Like troops actually fleeing, meaningful cover rules, only visible models in a squat can die, target priority, vehicle facing etc…

[@ScooterinAB]

It sounds like you guys took a really good approach to design. The biggest problem with homebrew stuff (and 3rd/7th edition era 40k) is the perceived need to give everything tons and tons of new and special rules. All this does it bloat the game and create imbalance though. Using existing rules and making the smallest tweaks where necessary is a much more moderate and sound approach.

[@Nortonius_]

That graphic of the rules as a flowchart around 5:13 is wonderful! Would love a closer look!

[@ArbitorIan]

Thanks! It's nabbed from my video about Rules Bloat which builds it through 3ed to 7ed.

[@Nortonius_]

Thanks Ian, will watch that one today. Awesome!

[@dekai7992]

As soon as that fabled Heresy boxed set kicks off, I'll be joining you in the Star Hunt! For the great Khan!

[@Gauldame]

I read that as "Updating the Horus Heresy to BED 40k." Slaanesh : YES!

[@nicholasleon7819]

Personally I'm not a fan of the 8th and onwards ruleset and I don't really think updating will revitalize HH like people hope it will. I really think HH died with Bligh and without him it will turn into basically just an expansion for 40k wheras before it truly did have its own identity which was starkly evident if you read the black book series and is conspicuously absent in the books published near and after his death; both in terms of lore and rules.

[@radeadcool]

No one seems to have understand the game more then Alan Bligh. Its a shame that no one took up his legacy and ask WWABD.

[@joaquinarias4915]

A white scars siege of terra project would be real cool. Would be dope to convert a bunch of jetbike marines to mk 6 from the new boxed set. Im still hoping gw officially announces it tomorrow.

[@TheVirtue01]

One thing i’m missing from 7th Ed, is the importance of positioning. Not to say that there isn’t some amount of positional play in 9th, but i think because there are no bonuses for hitting vehicles from the flanks or rear, we lose any real incentive to take fast moving flanker type units like jetbikes. Why bother trying to outflank a unit, when all you have to do is make sure you’re in range of any facing? As a result, it feels like speed and manoeuvrability have less importance than durability and firepower. So 9th feels like it’s about plonking yourself in the midfield and trying to outgun your opponent.

[@LinkiePup]

Hey Ian! I am in love with your videos and was wondering if you'd be willing to go over the differances between the classic 1st Edition Heresy Rules, and the New Heresy 2nd Edition rules! I'd love to learn the differences!

[@73cwalton]

I LOVE this version of 8th ed Horus Heresy. About to play a huge game next weekend with them. The only rules I'll use now. Great job!

[@apjapki]

Great analysis. Every fandom needs to admit its issues with snobbery and gatekeeperdom, even among the really great parts of a hobby.

[@calibulaminus4778]

id be honest i think the best solution would be a mixed system, some stuff from 30k I really like, like templates armor facings and the like its the main draw for me, but other stuff like the gazillion rules its just a dam right mess imo perhaps something in the middle can bing both communities to thrive together rather than compete for support

[@ryanhall4659]

I actually like heresy is 7th. Not as many dice. Compared to 9th, 7th seems less rules heavy now. That maybe because I’ve just played for so long. I like the armour sides, templates and scatter. An it’s not very tournament friendly which is great for me personally. Maybe 8th would of worked but 9th bloated now. Great take though ian and awesome work

[@ArbitorIan]

I remember 7ed Heresy only having fewer dice because most of my points were spent on Malcadors and Baneblades!

[@boredsoim01]

I feel like bringing it back to 3rd or 5th edition rules would be a great move.

[@bendavy1816]

Completely agree Ryan.

[@bendavy1816]

Though I do love the 8th edition conversion lists and would love to try them.

[@bendavy1816]

@@ArbitorIan 9th edition though adds so many dice….. 28 attack dark Eldar characters…. No thanks. I would say I think having 30k based on 7th edition and 40k having a different rule set I think is a good thing. Gives players options that fit what they want to play. Like AOS and and new old Warhammer will do.

[@chaosgrunt9554]

I admire the effort you guys put into this. I wouldn’t mind trying your rules for a game or two to try them out ,despite having misgivings with the rules GW put out. This feels like its had a lot more thought put into it (and wasn’t trying to push a huge range of new marines who don’t fit the fluff very well). The biggest thing imho that needs fixing in the Heresy Rules set is the psychic phase (which was the biggest mess in 7th in terms of game structure, if you don't count formations, which are more an army building fiasco). I don't think moving it to 8th/9th is a good idea, because I fundamentally think that makes the game less in depth: tanks with wounds just feel less immersive and it leads to silliness, CP spam lists generate annoying re-rolls, positioning doesn't matter for weapons that SHOULD punish clustered formations (explosives, flamers...)... Full disclosure: I really disliked the few games of 8th I played (everyone ran CP spam lists that felt very same-y). The idea of shrinking the table size in 9th is even worse to me... 8th and 9th felt just as bloated and jumbled but in different areas... Sorry for the ramble, I know it sounds whiney but I prefer 7th and felt I had to. Maybe I’m a snobby Grognard and just didn’t realise it. My primary concern if it moved to 9th is you’d see the “40k is a competitive game” GW is pushing creep in more and more whilst also stripping away huge amounts of the flavour and customisation that makes the heresy great for me. The way it strikes me, a lot of the new units in 40k 9th, including HQs, tend to be very “monobuild”… That just doesn’t interest me. My gut feeling about the idea is that if GW had ported the Heresy over, it would not have been this carefully or considerately built.

[@Instar_nine]

Loved your rules update 👍

[@dahSweep]

If HH ever moves on from 7th ed I am probably done with the game. 8th (and especially 9th) is just a mess. Well, I won't quit, but just stay in 7th.

[@ArbitorIan]

The 9ed rules themselves are pretty concise and a lot more flexible than 7ed. I'd argue that 9ed (like 7ed) is a mess because of all the stratagems, army-specific add-on rule systems, complicated army building, and units dispersed all over the place. HH in 9ed could avoid all that just like it did in 7ed.

[@dahSweep]

@@ArbitorIan "Mess" might be the wrong word, mostly because of what you say yeah. For me 9th is an annoying mix of both dumbing down too much and also making things needlessly complicated. On the one hand they removed interesting things like armour facings, proper LoS from vehicles in regards to shooting (no shooting from your tracks etc) and deep cover and terrain mechanics, but on the other hand they removed universal rules, so every datasheet is FULL of annoying rules and keywords that could've just been said with a single rule. Sure, USRs and many things in 7th take a long time to learn, but once you have it in your head, everything just flows so smoothly. If I want to play a 9th ed 40k game, I feel like I would have to have every single datacard in front of me, just so I could read every units version of "Deep Strike" or something to see if it's any different. I just don't like it. It's too simple and at the same time too much of a hassle to play. 7th ed is not perfect, at all, but it's the game I've played for years and I enjoy it infinitely more than 8th or 9th.

[@cadiastands8]

This is the first I’ve heard of Heresy updated with 8th/9th rules. I’ll definitely have to give it a look. 👍

[@23and0]

So, first of all, I've just heard of this, and I think it is a fantastic idea! Found the pdfs, printed them off and an gonna start playing with some friends soon! Idk if I missed something or the pdf I got is wrong, but there is no dark angels legion specific stuff in it, no deathwing, lion el'johnson ect ect? Ilcan someone help me?

[@walt_man]

I noticed you missed Forgeworlds statement released during the 7th to 8th era. I'll have to find it, it mainly stated the loss of Initiative values and Armor values made the armies too similar.

[@angelicdespot2735]

Great video. Do you know if GW ever reprint the black books? I have the first four, then life got busy. Went back for the rest last month and all gone!

[@Inquisdrknss]

HH has always been a neat bit of background info for me, some if the models look cool but it's never appealed to me enough to want to play. But if the rules are free I may try to talk my group into trying a game or two of this.

[@Kinghammer15]

GW crippled 30k so they could grow 40k with the 8th edition. For a few years 30k sales were surpassing 40k so they put a stop to releases and allowed 40k to cannibalize some of the 30k players. As a 30k player I hope FW keeps its own rule set. 7th was not perfect and can be improved upon, but I find 30k far more enjoyable then a boltgun wounding my frontline battle tank. If 30k having its own rule set is barrier to playing 40k, I hope you don't play another games. AoS, LoTR, Titanicus, Kill Team, Necromunda, and so on all have their own unique rules. The whole "learning another system" rules is a lazy answer.

[@noserenda]

Glad to hear someone backing the story i remember, so many AoD fans love to gaslight :/ Good work on the 8th ed conversion too, ended up playing a few small games a while back :)

[@FairieSword]

I think the part about this that makes me question updating Heresy is I like the fact the rules while not perfect have been the same and stable for quite some time. 8th I did like, it made 40k more accessible and brought a lot of people into or back into the hobby. BUT 9th ed is something else entirely. I dont find 9th to be the simpler more streamlined ruleset 8th was, its complexity is just in different places now. And for rulebloat 9th seems to be going in the direction of 7th so I dont see the improvement to be had just money to be spent on books that will be quickly invalidated (Im still not happy with how i bought the original Vigilus campaign books and within a year GW said nothing in them is valid anymore with the move from 8 to 9th)

[@morkak1130]

Sounds like a neat homebrew I may check out. I do wish their was more 40k homebrew projects and sites. I see dnd has an abusrd ton of homebrew and sites made solely to host dnd homebrew stuff, yet 40k has almost none. the only ones I can think of its an old kill team rule set, proposed rules in dakka dakka, and a small site with a handful of semi complete homebrew codexs. Currently Im making a homebrew ork codex that is fully functional, and I made a small discord to post homebrew, and to archive homebrew. I hope more 40k players homebrew, and I really hope this can be done on a semi organized site.

[@funnycreature2331]

love me 7th, hate me meta

[@CommanderTman]

Were all books done for 8th? I prefer 8th over 9th and would love to get them all.

[@duolingo0552]

HERESY LIVES!!!

[@TheTrickytrick88]

Brilliant work and I commend the effort of converting all of them rules. I do feel people should stop stereotyping heresy players as gate keepers. Its a loud minority in the heresy community and the majority of us would welcome with open arms more players. It's on gamesworkshop to make a good core of plastic models so its easy to jump into, alot of the plastic space marine tanks are just Mars pattern that were in use during the heresy. As for 7th ed or 8th ed its all personal preference, I'd be open to updating the rules but I dont see how heresy in it's current form is considered so bad. I have the summary rules with the updated rule book, all the core rules for starting and playing fit on 2 sides of an A4 sheet of paper.

[@ArbitorIan]

Yeah, agreed on the loud minority. Most of the experiences I had playing Heresy were great (especially with a totally converted Militia & Cults army, and Word Bearers with loads of 3rd Party bits) but it's a vocal section that can be like that and, like all things, they're even more vocal online!

[@FirenzeStorm]

Oh it's definitely that small group of idiots shouting in a corner. I won't lie, I am one of those who prefers the 7th Ed style of games for heresy, but if the change is coming I will move along to the new. I currently haven't had the greatest experience in 9th Ed with a lot of players near me being very tournament and competitive focused

[@ellisowendaniel]

Was that firestorm games in those game shots? I play Heresy there, great venue.

[@ArbitorIan]

It was! Back from the Imperial Truth events a few years ago

[@ellisowendaniel]

@@ArbitorIan I was at that one i think, was great. Painted 45 assault marines until 2am to get ready for it! I’m still sticking with Heresy so I hope there’ll be a resurgence soon. But in all honesty for the first time ever I’m looking at 40k. Seems to be so much more going on. I’m just not a fan of the competitive elements.

[@knowbody223]

so somebody tell me how the trapcard mechanics called stratagems are not the substitute for the formation special rules.

[@antoinerossignol9355]

Lol, no way ! Prefer 7th

[@MIJCheng]

So, might finally have gotten a good reason to put those white scars together now?

[@DBLt4p]

Like many, 8th and the shift to 9th during lockdown got me back into the hobby after playing as a kid. But as I have learned more about heresy and 9th has gone on to include much of its own rules bloat I can't help but feel dissatisfied with both. Hersey has so many rules that it really only works because almost everyone is playing different factions of the same units, and its psychic phase is garbage. But 9th loses so much in the way of thematic forces for Rites of War and unit customization (in addition to being actively hostile to conversions), and character rules and the fight phase in 8th and 9th are just terrible. The lack of Initiative and WS have just turned combat into a race to charge first, and combat characters into disposable cruise missiles that will always die on the clap back. The only thing that is really exciting me at the moment is Zone Mortalis...

[@voland6846]

Anyone know where those cool White Scars shields we briefly saw at the end there are from?

[@ArbitorIan]

I think they were from Chapterhouse Studios, which shows you how long they've been sitting in that bag waiting to be attached to someone!

[@voland6846]

@@ArbitorIan ah, so probably not in production anymore :P

[@tyrstark8673]

I'm having a blast with these manuals. You're so awesome for updating it.

[@kiwiplays2370]

Have you considered creating a battlescribe entry for 9ed HH?

[@ArbitorIan]

Someone definitely created BS Files for the 8ed conversion, but I'm not sure if they've been updated to the 9ed version.

[@kiwiplays2370]

@@ArbitorIan wierd, i cant seem to find it in the app for the life of me. Could you please tell me how its named?

[@davidribeiro1064]

Possibly unpopular opinion. Go with the latest apocalypse rules (8th ed variant). That not all 30k models got stats was a bit criminal, although I suppose most can be re-skinned.

[@ArbitorIan]

I think that's a REALLY good idea

[@helgi1921]

A friend and I did an experiment back in the day. A 40k space marine army vs a 30k space marine army. The end result was that the 40k armies had an edge in games under 1000points. 1000-3000 points 30k had the edge. 3000+ it was anyones game(as long as there were no primarchs on the table) Good times

[@malcolmhaldin717]

What would the Horus Heresy have looked like if Alan Blythe hadn't passed away 🤔🤔😔

[@ArbitorIan]

The last thing I remember was Alan being asked in an event seminar if HH would switch to 8ed, and him replying thay 'HH had always been an expansion to 40k and would remain so' - but I cut that line from the video because I couldn't find anywhere online that confirmed that so it might just be my leaky brain!

[@neilg6675]

Alan Bligh. I know petty, but I think the guy deserves to get his name right

[@malcolmhaldin717]

Please forgive me

[@FidelGashtro]

Where'd you get that shirt? I want 😁

[@ArbitorIan]

Ha! I got it from ASOS but it's by river island. Was just a couple of weeks ago so they might still have it!

[@EdwardWB97]

I didnt like 7th but Id rather 30k stay in 7th than move to 8th/9th

[@hectorc7080]

Only to get this clear: your conversion is based upon 8th ed rules, not 9th edition. Is my understanding correct?

[@ArbitorIan]

When we originally did it, we did it for 8ed. It has since been updated to 9ed on the Heresy30k forums.

[@hectorc7080]

@@ArbitorIan hello! I downloaded the documents from the drive link you shared on the video description. Are those the updated ones ?

[@-VOR]

Where's the necromunda 2nd edition vid? Freaking love your necromunda vids.

[@davidwasilewski]

I own about 100 resin mkIII marines and about 12 resin vehicles, all painted up as pre heresy Death Guard. I miss HH, the game just died when 8th came out where I live. I wouldn’t go back to 7th edition 40k now. It needs to be streamlined. The problem is that my group won’t play unofficial rules. Shame.

[@malcomyoung2240]

It s sad to know that no other black book for the Horus Heresy will ever be published. I would love to read about the Siege of Terra...

[@94Aequitas]

Here to help the algo and enjoy a good vid!

[@lukemcdonladson6648]

WOW Nice work! ... Heresy is Good Though ... But way 2 many rules, special skills, special weapons etc .. and kinda hell expensive for what it is .. ✌️💚

[@chrispygingerpie]

30k is smaller, taking away the boxes made it much harder for new people. However there is still a decent size community in the U.K. with events happening nearly every month. I play both 30k and 40k, I like that they’re different. As others has said I think 40k really suffers from rules bloat without USR.

[@TheRhandolph]

As a 30k player the current rules are stable and well balanced and most players are worried about a new set.

[@Pastartes047]

Well it seems they are finally updating the rules with Warhammer The Horus Heresy this year :3

[@eldraque4556]

well done

[@kiwiplays2370]

I would love an updated official ruleset for the suppoesd upcoming edition. Especially id like to see some more love towards the solar auxilia

[@nicholasleon7819]

Aux were basically Bligh’s baby so don’t hold your breath, which is a shake because they’re really cool. With all this excitement generated over the new dune movie I think GW/FW could capitalize on it by making some moves with aux because I think the sardaukar resemble them in several ways space marine don’t

[@kleedrac]

Now I'm fairly new to the hobby (only started a couple years ago now) but what's kept me from looking into HH as a game has always been the lack of diversity. I'm essentially a bad orks player (keep trying to make shooty orks lists because I'm not a fan of Green Tide) and the idea that I can't play Orks in HH was a deal breaker for me. I'd love a video talking about how HH handled this back in its hayday and if I'm right that most games were my space marines against your space marines and how that compared to games with more list and strategy diversity.

[@ArbitorIan]

Heresy felt surprisingly varied given that a lot of the people are picking from the same army list. And there is an advantage in both knowing what the units do! But one of the other advantages of having HH and 40k on the same system was that you could play your 40k Orks against a friend's 30k Legion army, cos the base rules were the same. You'd just have to avoid the formations and stuff otherwise it wouldn't be balanced. I remember going to 7ed 40k events where there were people with Legion armies. Really useful if you're in an area without many players!

[@chaosgrunt9554]

​@@ArbitorIan Wait... how is this a deal breaker? I play HH with orks (either as or against them) all the time but using the 7th ed codex. It's not the best but I've actually lost vs orks or won as them vs legion lists. Playing 7th edition codexes (without using formations, which really mess up game balance) is quite possible in a more relaxed, casual game.

[@chaosgrunt9554]

Wait... how is this a deal breaker? I play HH with orks (either as or against them) all the time but using the 7th ed codex. It's not the best but I've actually lost vs orks or won as them vs legion lists. Playing 7th edition codexes (without using formations, which really mess up game balance) is quite possible in a more relaxed, casual game.

[@kleedrac]

@@chaosgrunt9554 It was a deal breaker at the stage that the few people I had talked to attempted to sell me on HH as a game by saying it was marines on marines and no xenos allowed. I've not looked at the rules or anything else about the game because I wasn't overly interested in playing a Marines list let alone against a sea of nothing but other marines lists. I'm sure I don't know enough about HH as a game to make any judgements about anything beyond this :)

[@BryantR372]

Very cool stuff

[@nullset560]

That's a nice shirt btw

[@Subodenkhan]

I love this hobby, played many editions over the years including loads of 8th and 9th, I'm never going back to 8th and 9th. The rules bloat is worse then ever. The over simplification of the core rules is extreme and takes away the feel of different units In heresy the unit you get feels like it's supposed to. A tank FEELS like a tank Troops feel like troops Fliers feel like fliers Dreadnoughts feel like walking monstrous tanks. Stratagems suck so much momentum from the game. So many rules are the same codex to codex with a brand new name for each faction. If heresy changes to 8th and 9th style I won't be changing with it.

[@namefinder]

So now that the new trailer dropped and leaks indicate it's stuck in 7th Edition... what's your take on that? I'm somewhat curious trying HH myself (I was on hobby hiatus when HH came, became big and nearly disappeared again), but not sure if basing it on 7th Edition is the best move.

[@ArbitorIan]

Kinda the same as when I played it last. I'd much rather they updated it - the core 8/9th system is a much better and more elegant one. But right now, 7ed Heresy is probably more playable than 9ed 40k, once you factor in all the extras, CPs, Stratagems, etc. 7ed Heresy is the most playable form of a bad, bloated, overcomplicated system. 9th 40k is the least playable, most bloated form of a good, clean, elegant system.

[@lukemaxfield5240]

This is so interesting

[@フレドリク]

Please don't compare the Core rules only when saying 9th is less complicated than 7th. That's just GW workaround. They put the same complexity in the Codecies that they used to do in the Core book. Like there was 6 or something Psychic disciplines in the core book and on the datasheet it said which one your psycher could choose from. Now days there is their own discipline in each codex instead, and sometimes a different one in a supplement. Same with the special rules, instead of having a list of special rules, like Deepstrike and Feel-no-pain, they write on every datasheet the same rules just with different names. So the game is just as complex, if not more so since all the same rules are there but have a different name in each army instead.

[@skywatcheradept]

9ed became much more complicated than 7ed IMO. Especially than Heresy 7ed.

[@micahhill8456]

I used these rules and they were pretty fun if your opponent used them too

[@YodhrinsForge]

This is perhaps a futile reply since youtube likes to vanish my remarks instantly, but I'll give it a go. I think your presentation of yourself and your fellows as just really cool enthused dudes who just like 8th is all, and basically everyone who doesn't care for it as being a crusty, resentful snob and a gatekeeper is pretty disingenuous. Preferring that the thing you enjoy not lose the qualities that make it enjoyable to you(or that it not gain qualities you already know for a fact you don't care for) is not "gatekeeping". I applaud your effort in creating fan rules as I do all such efforts - I just think it's a shame you feel the need to promote it by dumping on people who're not interested.

[@EbonyBrotherhood]

Yeah I'll be honest this video felt *very* weak. Well researched but clearly trying to push this narrative that the 8th edition riles re-boot is the way to go and if you don't want that "you're just a gatekeeper". How about no? I strongly prefer the 7th and backward ruleset and there are many others like me. Complain about gatekeeping as much as you like, it won't change the actual fact that *you're* the one trying to push out people having fun.

[@shadowtempest2145]

Actually I understood 40K 7th ed better than I do the current edition

[@gwin2719]

Love the shirt :)

[@garyburke6156]

as long as those expensive black books i paid too much for on ebay are still useful, thats all i care about

[@RenegadeY]

I think they'd be fools to not update HH in some way, even if it was just bringing statblocks in line with the new format

[@TygonPanthera]

Fascinating. Here, locally at least, it was exactly the other way around. All the super competitive players went to Horus Heresy. Which I guess is part of the reason why I dislike it so very, very much.

[@calarath504]

All this work and the new HH boxed set is going to stay in 7e.

[@richtheunstable3359]

Anyone up for trying to port HH to 2nd ed?

[@GaryKeenan]

HH 7th and 40K 9th both need nuked from orbit. Bloated mess, both. New 10th edition 40K and new HH core with super streamlined rules. Yes please.

[@skywatcheradept]

GW will grant you only half of your wish. They will nuke 7th HH and 9th 40k, but they will replace it with EVEN MORE RULES BLOAT cashgrab pandemonium.

[@ignitedxblaze]

Controversal take: should be updated to apocalypse (2019)

[@ArbitorIan]

REALLY should

[@davidribeiro1064]

It seems there are at least three of us.

[@CatchFlipsidE]

Here’s the thing… unpopular opinion coming. I really miss formations. Why? Well, think about it from the point of view of someone who can’t play regularly or can only play once a month or is a hobbyist who just wants a game every once in a while. Well, I can tell you from past experience that, unless you’re willing to pay someone to help you tailor a list, no one on any forum (with the possible exception of some of the kinder subreddits out there) is going to take time out of their day to critique your list or your idea for a list. They aren’t going to help you go through the thousands of points of models you have to put together something that, while may not be tournament winning, will be fun. BUT, formations gave that to those of us who are mainly hobbyists, can’t get a game in often, or just only play occasionally. We’d just pick a faction we like, search for its best formation, buy, build, and paint the models and take it in for a game. While we may not be the best tacticians or know how to play that army well, using the formation would at least give us a fighting chance. Now, if you don’t play or aren’t close with a group that does play, it’s very doubtful you’ll get any list advice.

[@tabe8850]

I hate that you had a part of that “8thifying” Heresy. I saw this video when it first came out and immediately unsubscribed. Go stratagem yourself. lol Honestly, no edition is perfect, but I think you shouldn’t dismiss the fact that 7th edition was the result of working and reworking the 3rd edition rules to make a very realistic gaming system. A vindicator with a fixed placed demolisher cannon can shoot from its backside? Gullimen hits on 2+. Ok, so he is just as likely to hit a custodian as he would an elderly person in hospice? These little details made the 7e style rules more immersive - at least for me. 8th edition seemed silly by comparison. Agree to disagree. Btw: I resubscribed a few months ago because of your book club series, which is absolutely amazing! You and Mira are a great team. Looking forward to your review of Vulkan Lives…

[@ger5956]

Like and comment to appease the almighty algorithm 👍🏼

[@vojtaxxxxxxx]

While i really appreciate the effort the polish really isn't there for me. A interresting idea though.

[@BSHVN2006]

Oh wow. This didn't age well. All your complaints about the rules bloat and books and added rules all over the place is solid reality for 9th ed now. 7th ed. core rules were very, very solid.

[@braalkmath]

Marines need to have 2 wounds, that's my only issue

[@skywatcheradept]

apparently not Chaos Space Marines who still have 1 wound in 9ed

[@braalkmath]

@@skywatcheradept yeah. Everyone knows. Nobody is against them having 2 wounds. You are preaching to the choir

[@skywatcheradept]

@@braalkmath Yeah but it looks worse with every day. I just can't believe you can stay at 1 wound CSM for that long. This is terrible, even for GW standards.

[@KelRiever]

Lol all the drama. Well, Tom Kirby's GW pretty much sucked. And that's why he's out. This is not exactly around the same time but his damage I believe was worked into the company and took time to get out. There's no way Age of Sigmar is at all as good as square base WHFB, and thats not snobbish, it's a) an opinion and b) well, you yourself saw the wonder that 5th is. Not that these WHFB versions didn't have problems either. I think those of us who like Horus Heresy aren't necessarily looking forward to this upgrade, like the missing armor stat (which our group finds far better than things like vehicle toughness), but we all are looking forward to the release of plastic figs. And a hopefully tolerable rules set.

[@jonbaxter2254]

i just want the plot to move on, for fucks sake

[@icholi88]

HH 2e just dropped a few weeks ago, thank you for wasting so much time trying to butcher the rules just for it to be forgotten immediately, really hope that you feel fulfilled

[@ArbitorIan]

Mate, we did this years ago. It's already been forgotten!

[@devinoliver2396]

Everything post 5th edition is an unplayable absolute dumpster fire for me, so it’s interesting that people group 3rd through 7th edition.

[@ArbitorIan]

Yeah, I've got another video on Rules Bloat that goes into this in more detail, but mostly it's because 3ed-7ed were the same ruleset - like, the same base rules with various additions. The issue was that by late 5ed/6ed the game had outgrown the original ruleset, and there were so many additionsmans extras and expansions that it was impossible to track!

[@thesmilyguyguy9799]

:)

[@damionfrancis5012]

i was like #666 !!!!

[@MasterShake9000]

People trying to "fix" GW rules are like people predicting the end of the world - they show up every year, everyone thinks they have it right, and they're always wrong.