Why the Myth of the Library of Alexandria Is Wrong

[@KazRowe]

👒🔎 Download June’s Journey for free now using my link: wooga-junes-journey.onelink.me/M4rK/de6f3d47?c=jj_us_youtube_kazrowe_jan23_proseeders

[@antonizajkowski9698]

It doesn't work or me on facebook : (

[@tawumpas]

Good video, enjoying it a lot! Kinda inspiring me to want to see what I can do to promote preservation of knowledge. I believe you are doing your part 〽️

[@Sasheenka]

June’s Journey has a lot of queer characters in the stories. It’s a fun game.

[@Wutangclanaintnothin2fuckwith]

Shit looks like a game made for little kids. Thanks for promoting it to people who want to learn about history

[@antonizajkowski9698]

@@Wutangclanaintnothin2fuckwith That's a little passive aggressive

[@Luischocolatier]

Ancient scholars: It's a shame we lost the Library of Alexandria to Caesar's fire The Library: Quit telling everyone I'm burned! Scholars: Sometimes I can still hear its voice

[@Haley_Alexis99]

I love this Brother Bear reference!

[@sworbet7708]

This is giving OSP Red

[@AdamIshak01]

THE BROTHER BEAR APPERICATION

[@VanK782]

I can't stress enough how important it is to me that these videos aren't depressing. So many channels can be a real downer even if they just talk facts, but I really appreciate the effort to end on a positive note

[@wolfbones666]

Not Sam o Nella

[@lindseyjackson9479]

As a librarian who studied ancient history in college I can’t express how much I appreciate that you made this video! It’s a kind of scary time to be in this field so it’s both exciting and comforting to see someone with a platform talk about the issues we’re facing :’)

[@cynicalafflictional1725]

That's the truth, respect for speaking about the defunding and the extermination of libraries. Respect for the Librarians out there

[@johndemeritt3460]

My wife has a Master of Library Science (MLS) from Texas Woman's University (TWU). She worked in the Women's Collection at TWU for a year or two as a temp worker before enrolling in the MLS program, and continued working there while completing her degree. While working in the Women's Collection, she worked with the Official Women's Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) archive. Before moving to Alabama, she continued the trend by working as a volunteer for the Denton Public Library archive. Then she got a job with the Black History Archive at Alabama A&M University before getting her current job at the Air Force Historical Research Agency (AFHRA). Having watched over her shoulder over these last few years, I appreciate this video as well. And Katie liked it, too. All of us need to stand up for libraries and archives! How will future generations learn about and connect with the past if we don't preserve it for them?

[@madisoncorley4637]

@@cynicalafflictional1725 you have no idea how much us library workers appreciate things like this. Thank you for the support ❤

[@gamewrit0058]

Thank you for being a librarian! 🥰👍

[@johnconnery1939]

Great job.

[@peach_total]

the “perfect and universal library” idea is explored really well in the short story The Library of Babel by Jorge Luis Borges. the library is endless and holds infinite books with every combination of the latin alphabet, spaces, commas, and periods to a certain character limit. people explore the library in order to find all sorts of prophetic and enlightening books, but the story explores the question of what the significance of finding a book like that would be if it’s just one of every possible combination of characters

[@ElectrikCandies]

He also was most likely the first author to imagine the concept of hypertext, which is wholesome ❤️

[@lancehobbs8012]

Thank you, I'm reading that today!

[@peach_total]

@@lancehobbs8012 nice! i’d recommend a collection of his short stories, they’re really cool. lots of them almost function more as thought experiments than traditional narrative

[@borkabrak]

I think the impact of such a thing was made most clear in the story with the observation that such a place would contain, among all else, "...the true story of your own death. As well as many false ones." When you have EVERY POSSIBLE book in a library, they paradoxically become almost worthless.

[@Xamag]

I think about the preservation of information so much 😭My mom is a librarian, and the kids library in her town is rotting and falling apart due to absolutely incompetent and uncaring management, despite still being highly sought after by schools. Many of the things on the internet I used to enjoy as a kid, even just a decade ago, are now gone. The artists stop hosting their webcomics, the death of flash player just ENTIRELY wrecked so so so many little things I can't go back to anymore. A lot of the games I used to own as a kid are now useless boxes of outdated software. I can't use my floppy disks or VHS tapes, and soon won't be able to play my CDs and DVDs either. I've scanned all of my albums and notebooks with drawings because those things are getting smudged, weathered and dirty, and it's my history I'm not willing to lose. Time is ruthless to everyone, and it's so so easy to lose things that were important to you to its sands.

[@hedgehog3180]

There are enthusiast versions of Flash that you can use.

[@revan552]

A project called Flashpoint managed to rescue and archive thousands of flash games, which can be downloaded for free, ao at least those have been preserved.

[@kyndramb7050]

I think about this alll the time when people say "Once it's on the internet, it's on there forever". It's just patently untrue. I have seen many things lost in my lifetime.

[@inthecloudz1272]

​@jj4lit is

[@dstinnettmusic]

There are solutions to this, buddy. 1) there are modern versions of flash you can install to play those old games. 2) you can get a usb floppy disk drive, or a VCR…they still make DVD VCR combos that you could even transfer those tapes to DVD. But…I think you would probably be happier if you can learn to accept change. Yes. The old notebooks will deteriorate. But only if you keep them in storage in your attic. If you keep them in a dark room that is temperature controlled, then they would last forever. Your story tells me that those notebooks are in a basement or attic. They aren’t a thing you enjoy for the objects themselves but for the idea of the object. It gives you a sense of continuity…and while that is valid, it seems to be harming you as it is tied up in a this generalized anxiety about the world changing.

[@transientdaydreams]

I'm a library worker, and I'm grateful for this video: first, for clearing up some misconceptions about the Library of Alexandria (which even I held), and also for your emphasis on the importance of libraries and archives of information. During a time when we're under attack by many and our importance devalued by others, it's always encouraging when people spread the word of all the cool stuff we do!

[@elyseforseth8821]

Kaz 😭 I'm an archaeological collections manager for a university, and I so appreciate your talk toward the end about our fight with knowledge. It's wild how professionals in my discipline can preach about the importance of preserving these records forever, yet no one gives us the staffing, funding, or space to keep everything stored in proper conditions so we actually can preserve it into the future; and the real kicker is that barely anyone actually uses our collections for research. So, what or who are we preserving this "stuff" for? The general public and even professionals in my own field tend to underestimate the severity of this situation. I shudder to imagine what my job will look like in 100 years. Unfortunately, I'm afraid this is the reality and fate for many modern-day Library of Alexandrias. I very much appreciated this video! Thank you!!

[@evelynsaungikar3553]

*shudder

[@Me-vn3gz]

why do you think people don’t use them for research as much?

[@suchnothing]

One of my all time favourite books is called "Wonderful Life" by Stephen Jay Gould, and you might find the intro and historical parts of it interesting (the rest is about fossils and the anatomy of ancient creatures). The tldr of the historical parts (and I may be misremembering some of the details as I haven't re-read it in a while) is that one of the most important fossil deposits in the world, the Burgess Shale, was discovered by a European explorer and scientist in 1909. Over the next decade or so, thousands of fossils were taken out and stored at various museums and universities in the Eastern U.S. and England. The guys digging them up would look at them, go "that looks like a (insert familiar animal)" and toss it in the collection without another thought. The fossils sat in these collections, barely glanced at until the mid-1980s, when a prof and his grad students decided to properly categorize some of it as a little project. They soon realized that the original assumptions about the fossils were wrong, and their work on those collections ended up fundamentally changing our understanding of the process of evolution and mass extinction in a massive way. The point is: the lack of funding is frustrating and scary, and you may feel like your work is pointless since no one looks at your collections anyway. But in 80 years, some nerdy grad student obsessed with a niche tiny detail about the history in your collection may start sifting through it and discover something that turns on its head everything we thought we knew about the subject.

[@elyseforseth8821]

@Me in my field, it is mostly because excavations are encouraged over collections-based research, and that mentality has carried over for DECADES. Graduate students don't want to spend their time using an existing collection that hasn't seen daylight in four decades because...well, it's tricky, and people want to discover their own site. Older collections are typically in rough conditions because we haven't been able to care for them properly over the years, and the associated documentation is often a mess. Some graduate students at my university have done wonders in developing a structure on how to use an existing collection for research. But the problem still exists that most people don't want to OR don't know that it's an option because professors have never talked about it. Excavation is less than a third of what archaeology really entails, but it is the most emphasized and funded part of projects, which is why most people go that route. I also believe most collections aren't as accessible as they should be. Students have expressed to me an interest in learning more about collections-based research, but the problem is that no one (besides the people who work here) knows exactly what we have in our collections. One of my major pushes right now is for accessibility. If you're interested, this topic is called the "curation crisis," and it extends to most universities and museums in America. It's likely a worldwide problem, but my research has only focused on the United States.

[@elyseforseth8821]

@Suchnothing that's very true, and I appreciate the recommendation. I'll have to check it out; it sounds like a fun read! It is true that some collections are reanalyzed over time and could yield new results thanks to a new technology or better-trained set of eyes. But I would argue that that is not that case for the majority of collections held at repositories. Archaeologists are usually taught to keep EVERYTHING in the field, which has resulted in endless counts of redundant "artifacts." I'm talking about slag, indeterminate objects (usually iron or other metals), < 1/2" brick fragments, indeterminate ceramic fragments, modern debris like Styrofoam or plastics, shell, indeterminate wood fragments, and even non-cultural stone. Yes, these things *could* yield data in the future, but do all repositories need to have upwards of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of these same artifacts? It is now being argued by many curation professionals that we should instead keep samples of these materials and discard the rest because most are not even useful for analysis. That would save us space, time, and curation material costs. So yes, I do think that many of our collections will continue yielding new information as the decades pass, but I would say much of the current collections on shelves will not. Many likely won't even make it 100 years into the future because they are not being curated and cared for properly due to the many issues associated with the "curation crisis."

[@zeacahill9408]

It is worth mentioning the role of certain Church fathers too. Many were in position to decide which ancient texts are worth copying which weren't. It is a huge reason why certain texts are available now and others not, because as you have mentioned, for a long time copying was the only way to preserve texts.

[@Dragonmoon98]

Not to mention that the printing press is quite new, so they would've been especially selective before Gutenberg.

[@ElectrikCandies]

This is a semi-myth as well. Or well, it's not as obvious as one might think. A lot of church authorities actually carefully kept a lot of these writings because they ironically felt like it was important to show how wrong they were.

[@ElectrikCandies]

An interesting example of this is in the works of heresiologists. We knew "gnostic" gospels/alternative early Christianity beliefs existed simply because many early church authorities were dedicated in extensively documenting these beliefs to mock or discredit them. We simply had no idea if they accurately represented these beliefs and the degree to which they were honest. We ended up miraculously finding copies of these early gospels (Nag Hammadi) in the past century or two, ends up they were mostly correct!

[@NathanHenriquefa]

⁠​⁠@@ElectrikCandieswhat do “a lot” means in the big scheme? We have hundreds of reports of burnings. Augustus burning 2000 greek magic scrolls in 13BC is one that comes to my mind. In fact, in some periods, people wouldn’t care if you were holding heretic texts “as a joke”; they would kill you anyway. Some few scholars who wanted to keep “dark magic” texts to “learn about how to fight it” needed an SPECIAL AUTHORIZATION from high ranking religious authorities. Burnings lasted for almost 2000 years. Remember; even the Nazis held huge book-burning rites. I’d say SOME people held those books and scrolls. But they were the exception, not the rule.

[@johnbones261]

So Christians are to blame for not copying texts that were burned to ashes long before Christianity existed. Brilliant.

[@DoctorWhoFanatic09]

As an emerging archivist, it's always fun to talk to people about how much digital is actually not all that helpful for keeping information. The amount of things that we (myself included) take for granted because it's saved digitally somewhere. How many of us have lost important files over time due to file corruption or tech changes making media obsolete? Digitization of materials is not for preservation's sake, it is for accessibility. Those files will degrade much faster than the original paper copies, which continue to be cared for in these institutions. Most libraries/archives/museums rely on visitor numbers for funding so visit them when you can, because not all include digital stats for that kind of stuff!

[@LynnHermione]

So print your fanfics! (lol jokes aside, the preservation of online fan communities is a thing many old fen have been worrying for a good while. You don't really own something unless you have a physical offline copy no one can take away from you)

[@nyarparablepsis872]

It may be because I'm an Assyriologist, but I've been preaching about the problem of data formats no longer be recognised since the late 90s. But I always lose my audience when I suggest using clay tablets instead... (we can still read the texts from the library of Assurbanipal! Beat that, various versions of Word documents!) 👾

[@Dell-ol6hb]

well the benefit of digital as opposed to physical is that digtal copies can be perfectly infinitely replicated, that's where the preservation comes from not just from simply having it in digital form. But the ability to just replicate those files in mere seconds as many times as you want makes it so that effectively the file will never dissapear so long as someone somewhere made a copy of it

[@gljames24]

I think the internet archive does a good job of this. Even the Library of Congress stores backups of digital works which I only found out about because they were increasing efforts to save many tweets for prosperity because of recent turmoil.

[@peggedyourdad9560]

@@nyarparablepsis872 What about glass tablets instead? Just make sure to fill in the lettering with a bright colored substance. But, as long as they aren’t broken, they should last a very long time.

[@mystery1317]

Ngl, this hit different as a library science grad student watching this while at her library job digitizing old material. Awesome video as always, Kaz!

[@tripleacosplay]

I'm a curator at a local historical society/museum and the number of photos that we just don't know who the people were, or where the photo was taken, is so sad to me. I always get excited when I see an album filled with photos that have captions and even little notes and things!

[@mcwjes]

I am lucky enough to have my great great grandma's photos and I really wish she had made notes on them! There's a couple mysterious beauties without names. Now I label all my photos!

[@magicknight13]

You are so lucky and blessed to have that job! Speaking from an art history student perspective who sees the field as very competitive 😄 that sounds so wonderful! I love that you have passion and gratitude !

[@tripleacosplay]

@@magicknight13 It's more of a volunteer/part time paid type thing! But honestly, if you have time to volunteer, it's almost a guarantee that a historical society around you would absolutely LOVE someone who's passionate about history!

[@asruluveira]

yes. thank you. your comment open my eyes.I am from Malaysia and love world history. after I saw Biden funny bloopers and faceplant, I've decided to create an achieve of all stupid thing he does.never before I saw murica president like him and I really hope there won't be another senile old man in the most powerful office in the world. future gen might not believe the most powerful man that literally got lost on the stage, face planting or fistbumping a killer prince if we don't keep the recording. fingers cross that his handler won't hide him in basement again.. I want more content from him

[@eevietheclown]

you betta curate 🏆 i live queen

[@BettiePagan]

As an archivist studying an Information Studies degree rn (Archives & Records Management and Library Science!), I appreciate the heck out of this video, _especially_ your monologue about libraries and information towards the end. Go goblinmode, hoard all the knowledge. I hadn’t realised the bigotry had extended to trying to get wholeass libraries shut down and that makes me really sad. Hoping I can make a positive impression in my work, much like this video has. Even if I’m just one little guy, we’re a lot of little guys collectively. Just going to assume people trying to get libraries shut down are mad that they can’t read.

[@swordfish1929]

I have a degree in Classics and a Masters in Ancient history (with my masters thesis ironically being based on documents from Ptolemaic Egypt which did survive). One of the key problems with books in the ancient world is that they needed to be copied every few decades once there is a break in that continuity that book will cease to exist although it may be preserved in fragments scattered through other texts or be partially preserved in the papyri that do still exist (this is how we got some of Sappho's poetry). Personally though my focus is away from the great libraries and Alexandria with the normal, everyday documents we find further up river and in the Fayum region. Those documents may not have grand historical narratives or complicated philosophical theories but they do contain Philista's fury at a bath attendant for spilling scolding hot water on her, they contain Nikaia's concerns about her old age and vulnerability after the deaths of her husband and son, and they contain the tragic story of the how the twins Taous and Thaues lost their father and were cheated out of their inheritance by their mother and brother. These documents allow a small snapshot into people's actual lives and allow historians to gather vital information about everything from agricultural practices, to legal structures, to the complexities of changing cultural identities. Apologies for getting a bit off topic but I love Hellenistic Egypt and wish it was know for more than an admittedly cool couple of libraries and an interesting last Queen. Thank you Kaz for this video

[@KazRowe]

Agreed, i love the historical tidbits that tell us about regular people’s daily lives the most 🥰

[@swordfish1929]

@@KazRowe If you have any interest in the era I would suggest "Women and Society in Greek and Roman Egypt" by Jane Rowlandson it is a source book with various primary sources in translation with some really good and clear explanations of the contexts 😊

[@suchnothing]

That work sounds amazing. I know a few people with degrees in library/information sciences, and from what they've told me, people are always approaching their local archives with statues, vases, tools, etc. because that's what they see in museums. But what really excites the archivists is personal correspondence, family trees, and family photos.

[@sofdemi8042]

@@swordfish1929 ooh thank you for the juicy resource. Just downloaded a pdf of the book.

[@pierrelabounty9917]

Thankyou for your added expertise, for which I am familiar. I love added discussion. We profit. Ptolemy, read just a little bit in my historical interest in the history of ideas.

[@MaxOakland]

I really like your sections of actions we can take. A lot of creators are great at pointing out problems, but it’s less common to have someone tell you what you can actually do to help

[@curtislindsey1736]

I don't know how this channel found it's way into my feed but I love it! I'm just an old hillbilly in east TN so to say my knowledge about the history of the LGBTQ+ community was lacking is quite the understatement. I really appreciate your hard work and thank you for helping educate me.

[@KazRowe]

Thank you!!

[@ryanmcwilliams8784]

That’s pretty gay

[@justanotherfella4585]

Same

[@curtislindsey1736]

@@pleasedontknowmeirl I subbed after the first video I watched a few months ago.

[@heavensdevil6943]

Thank you for caring enough to learn

[@eduardoalexanderoliveirade9112]

"When you hear Alexandria you probably think of the library" me a TMA fan thinking about monster archivists: Close enough

[@deathkidclassics]

Love to find my exact thought in the comments

[@valemilillo]

To anyone reading: I cannot stress enough how fun library dates are! They're just really cool places to hang out in, amazing if you have to study, and librarians are usually just really cool people to have a chat with (in the rooms where you can speak, that is)

[@THarSul]

as someone who had a lot of fun with their highschool sweetheart in the local library, i can attest to this statement.

[@katszulga1888]

I'm now picturing the fun of wandering the stacks and pressing books on each other to check out.

[@Bionickpunk]

Are you not suppose to chat in libraries?

[@THarSul]

@@Bionickpunk not sure how it is in other places, but our library leans into the fact that it’s a public space and encourages conversation in common areas, tho they do discourage people from talking too loudly.

[@Bionickpunk]

@@THarSul Ah, then it all depends on what type of library and where. The ones I went to had the "no talking" policy, largely due to people using libraries also as study and reading areas. Loud noise would just be distracting. Though we do have cultural centers which function as a mix of social gathering spaces and libraries.

[@eddiebailey183]

as an aspiring librarian, i want to thank you for making this video. it is, sadly, incredibly relevant to the current cultural climate surrounding archiving and libraries. i don't think most people truly realize how much we would lose if we no longer had them.

[@zombieoctorock1756]

Thank you for this video and your message about current libraries. The university I attend is planning to overhaul our library…which to them involves getting rid of 30,000+ volumes of text because the board of the school find them “obsolete”. This is super concerning for the campus historians and other researchers because we rely heavily on those materials. It’s sad that this is happening to libraries all over the place, but I am glad that there are plenty of other people that still see the the importance of physical libraries.

[@LynnHermione]

If by getting rid they mean put them in a table free to take, they can be saved, if they don't do that, I fear there's another reason to want those books gone other than being "obsolete"

[@suchnothing]

I can imagine a lot of books in a university library being obsolete. For example, I took a sociology 101 course in university in 2011, and I took a risk and got the 1992 version of the textbook out from the school library. It was EXACTLY the same as the newest version besides the addition of two new chapters (which we didn't even use in the class). Even the pictures and examples hadn't been updated in the older chapters. Every single iteration of that text since 1992 (and a new version had come out every year or two since it was first written) could be gotten rid of without losing any real knowledge. Imagine that happening with every subject that has a 101-style text book... 1st year math courses are the worst, since the fundamentals haven't changed in at least 100 years, but a new first year math text comes out every couple years with the chapters slightly rearranged. Dozens of iterations of the text for each entry level subject could be tossed with no consequences. Even access wouldn't be hurt for poorer students, because the newer texts all have online versions available through the library. I took a semester of a uni degree last year and didn't have to buy a single book. That being said, 30,000+ texts is A LOT to be getting rid of all at once, and librarians responsible for the collections should definitely be worried and scrutinize the process closely. Universities absolutely have their own political motivations depending on their location, administration, and pressures from government and funding sources. Libraries and historical collections aren't immune from this. I hope it goes ok for you all!

[@pivoine3176]

Honestly I have to disagree here. Yes, libraries have to get rid of books. And yes, actual librarians agree with me. Because they need to add a lot of books. In order to stay functioning they have to make additions - and they can impossibly keep each and every book. That is also not the job of a library. That's what archives are for. And the textbooks are just one example of what becomes obsolete. Every now and then I see books for free that are... *heavy sigh* instructions on how to use obsolete technology. No, nobody is looking for an instruction on how to use a Windows 95 PC. As well as dictionaries. Sorry honey, nobody is actively looking for a paper copy of your 15 years old and well beloved English-Spanish dictionary. We use apps for that. You are allowed to throw that dictionary in the trash. It's okay. And all the trendy books... Paleo. Makramee. Minimalism. I don't know how many books about such things exist. They come and go. Libraries provide books that are relevant now. Sure they will keep the embroidery book that provides way more information that the internet. Because it is that one gold standard book on embroidery that exists. But it will get rid of the Regency Core book with sewing inspiration in five years. Unless Bridgerton is real big in five years. And all the outdated books... My local library has a bookshelf with lgbtiq literature for teenagers. When they got that going they had very few books in it. To my absolute horror did I find a book about transsexuals from 1980s. I took it and showed it to the librarian. Asked them to please not display it in that shelf. It was clearly for adults - and terribly outdated. It described surgery techniques for gender affirming surgery that isn't being used anymore. This information is in no way relevant to any trans person in their teens or twenties. I was very relieved when I checked the shelf next time and that book wasn't there any more. I can gladly report their collection has grown and it is now two bookshelfs specifically with lgbtiq media for young folks.

[@caihah.1404]

The library was one of my favorite places as a kid, quiet, so many books. Never had the money to buy them, or at least I had no allowance, and the odds of my parents buying me anything were slim to none. So the library was great. I know I was/am kind of a weirdo, but it's sad to think kids like I was are being denied the opportunity.

[@suchnothing]

Your point about writing details on photos is REALLY important. I've been going through family photos with my grandma and asking her for details on the time, place, and people, and writing those on the back/keeping a document of them. She's the single person in her family who has all that information in her head, and once she's gone, so is all that context unless we find a way for her to pass it on.

[@UtubeAW]

The “p” is silent in Ptolemy. ‘Love watching you go thru the same process I did. “Wha? Christians didn’t burn it down? Librarian Hypatia didn’t get carved up with shells?! The last Ptolemys sent books out to 5 other libraries?!”

[@vincenttt8289]

no, the p is voiced

[@craigmusa2254]

I mean Christians did kind of burn it a bit & im pretty sure The shell thing might have happened

[@anti0918]

@@vincenttt8289The “p” may have been voiced in Greek, but since she is speaking English, the accepted English pronunciation is with a silent “p”. Source: all my classics professors in college.

[@jakekgope1061]

​​@@craigmusa2254you are lying christians never burned the library not even one proof .

[@DE6196]

It's so weird how something I was taught in school as a fact was just a commonly believed myth this whole time. At no point when we learned this in school was it ever mentioned that this was a myth and not a documented fact. Thank you for shining a spotlight on this topic.

[@matildas3177]

I was taught that there were libraries in Alexandria, but that we don't really know what happened to them and that the popular theory was that they burned down at some point.

[@alexjones2677]

It's amazing how children in school are taught many things that are partially or even fully untrue. We need to invest more in education.

[@geminihexx9858]

It’s not a myth….

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

There's a bit of mythmaking incorporated into history classes, and then the majority of people leave high school and never look deeper into events of the past. Then when they're confronted with contradictory information, things get... unpredictable. Some deny and refuse to adjust to the new information, some actively try to quash anything that goes against what stuck from what they learned half a century ago, some make the adjustment after looking further into the topic, and some decide that nothing they learned is factual and that the world is flat.

[@viderevero1338]

Because school itself didn’t know or really question what it was given. Keep in mind your very teachers likely believed in this permeating myth, as they themselves had been taught by their own teachers. The real issue isn’t necessarily the schools itself, but the fact that nobody really questioned the lack of sources, and accepted so much as fact.

[@Maxis_Mi]

The library slowing being forgotten over time is more tragic than it burning down all at once

[@edisonlima4647]

A few years ago, my friend's wife died. After her death, he found out that *ALL* pictures of their entire life together, and of their kids growing up, only existed in digital form, and he had no access to them anymore, because he threw away her phone during the grieving process. He wrote friends asking for any pictures of them, and we all only had digital ones, too. That was... a wake up call for me. I grew up in a house filled with portraits hanging on the walls and framed on shelves and family gatherings were moments where we opened old albums and talked about those pictures. Weird pictures, candid photos and sometimes blurry pictures all having their own history. But after that I noticed I had ZERO pictures around the house, all pictures on my families social medias are pretty but tremendously curated and a generic, all posed and artificial. Pretty but not really... historied. On my phone, hundreds of identical pictures I'm never going to print. They are going to vanish, unremembered, as soon as I die, while on an old chest I still have pictures of family gatherings public events and work groups since the 19th Century. It is... strange. And not what I would have expected for the internet. Indeed, we are quite likely to become a Second Dark Age for future historians!

[@manshonyagger]

I agree with @edisonlima4647 about the new dark age. I've read that future archaeologists will be faced with a dizzying number of different formats, both physical and electronic, that were never designed for longevity and that may be cracked, warped, erased, or just so decayed over time so as to be unreadable. The dawn of the computer, internet, and digital information ages create the perfect storm for losing stuff forever.

[@Stitchwitchstitch]

“Put a dagger in that” made me laugh out loud, so thank you for that! And well, for your kickass vids. So well done! Which you obviously already know, of course, but I wanted to show my appreciation!

[@authordistopia4379]

Libraries are so important for those that either can’t afford to buy every book they want or for those without other methods of finding books. Many libraries have digital as well as physical collections. Personally, I wouldn’t be able to read and learn as much as I can now without the ebooks & audiobooks the library provides for free. If you don’t feel like you can read or carry a physical copy see if your library provides services like Libby or Hoopla. It can also be away to avoid supporting Amazon and their control of e-literature with kindle and audible. We can all do our part to keep knowledge and entertainment accessible. Support libraries 📚!

[@kenziehurlock]

The problem I ran into often when I was an avid reader in my teens was libraries didn't have the books I wanted to read. They sometimes did, but not always.

[@Bionickpunk]

@@kenziehurlock Yeah, thats the biggest problem of physical libraries, they have a very limited stock of books, and a lot of them wont interest you or be something that you need for studies. Often than not some books only have one or two copies in select few libraries in a country, so finding the original sources is even more difficult, especially if some of the original sources burned down cause the Nazis targeted your libraries and archives when bombing your cities in WW2.

[@653j521]

@@kenziehurlock No interlibrary loan service? That is such a boon. I once got a book on Chicago from a library in Alaska. :)

[@SonjaPond]

Libby is an amazing app!

[@kimberlyowen7600]

As a Library employee for over 18 years of my life - I thank you for this video and I

[@anachibi]

I've lived through more than a few losses of digital history both personal and public, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can never have too many copies. A universal library is a great concept, but when something inevitably happens to parts or all of it, there must be copies or backups so it doesn't get lost. I'm still sad about the 200+ poems I wrote in high school that died on my hard drive and then my little website when the hosting service shut down. I have only the handful of them that I bothered to share in other places or keep on paper.

[@mxpants4884]

Have you checked the wayback archives? If you shared them as links it's at least possible that they got archived. More importantly, make sure you keep writing more :-)

[@anachibi]

@@mxpants4884 It does have a few! Nowhere near the full archive of them, but tbh I didn't expect any when I first went looking a few years ago haha

[@pivoine3176]

@@anachibi Gosh digital loss is such a bummer! There was a really active forum that lasted for years and was full of queer people. I read so much of it when I was coming out. One day it was suddenly down. I don't know why. It was so sad.

[@elmoisred616]

Man I just click this out of curiosity, but this was so eloquently and meaningfully put. Especially the ending call-to-action about how our material actions can save our current libraries, as opposed to mourning a myth, really resonated with me. Instant sub

[@duod7847]

I'm only 1 and half a minute in but I have to say that I really dig the transition of the warm fire into sudden coolnes as it is smothered. Like a myth being quashed by reality.

[@rabidpomegranate]

i used to work at a library, and watching the lack of younger people was genuinely disheartening. i watched as the library used to be super popular when i was younger, to it being just older people and moms with kids, people don't realize all of the resources that libraries offer that are so so important for the community, thank you for making this !!

[@drock7310]

Imagine if you could go back in time and visit these old libraries for a few hours (language isn’t a problem, you can read everything without difficulty). Even the most mundane details would be absolutely amazing!

[@believeinmatter]

You can in Assassin’s Creed. There’s a pretty accurate recreation in Origins.

[@Anonsage3]

Your channel is the most delightful thing to enter my recommendations in a long time.

[@rika9126]

Kaz, as a librarian living in a very backwards country, thank you so much for this video and for the actually uplifting message in the end. More people should support knowledge and it's actually such an easy task to do. Amazing video like always!

[@RobertSoul123]

I also live in a very backwards country. That country? America.

[@panamajack5972]

​@@RobertSoul123 You're so smart :^)

[@RobertSoul123]

@@panamajack5972 Thanks... I know.

[@Drivin_Sideways]

​@@RobertSoul123its cause youre facing the wrong direction dumbass, I can help you leave tho

[@budgetcommander4849]

@@RobertSoul123America is genuinely fucked in so many aspects but I think- That was supposed to be a retort but literally every relevant example I thought of was applicable to the US

[@aubirt]

I live in the south and libraries are genuinely under threat of being defunded due to many reasons you have mentioned. Our community has been organizing recently to prevent this, and it seems to be making a good impact, and I just wanted to say thank you for speaking about this!! I worry for the people who may not know this is happening, and talking about it right now is insanely important. Recently a city in my state very quietly and decisively defunded their library and it worked because people didn't know what was going on.

[@mara---8]

Hey Kaz, tomorrow we have to present a poem infront of our class and i picked the poem "The lost Partner", the one you quoted in your video about the story of the gay wild west. It now means a lot to me and i wanted to thank you. Btw, your videos always are so interesting and teach a lot about the neglected storys of lgbtqai+ persons. Love your content

[@KazRowe]

So glad to hear that! That poem is very precious to me too 😊

[@maurreese]

In high school the library was a refuge for me and the access to so much knowledge for free was a such a gift. Hopefully they will stay around for more generations to discover and enjoy.

[@joseybryant7577]

They should've gotten a big owl to guard their library. Worked in Avatar the Last Airbender for a long time. All jokes aside, this is one of the best videos on this topic I've seen.

[@BasicGeometry]

Actually, a big murder owl would do great in today's battle for the right to knowledge. Just try and take lgbt memoirs out of those giant talons

[@joseybryant7577]

@@BasicGeometry YES! I second this

[@sandradermark8463]

I second Wan Shi Tong as guardian of the library as well ❤

[@cynhanrahan4012]

I truly appreciate the research and writing you put into your videos. This is the first time I'd heard that this one was a myth. And yet, it makes all kinds of sense. As a kid, I was a prolific reader. I finished the children's section (everything that interested me), and was allowed access to the adult books. Since my taste still ran along the same lines (horses, mysteries, fairy tales) I was never questioned about my selection either by the librarians or my parents. As long as I had my nose in a book, I was left alone. Raising my own kid here in Florida in the 90s, her favorite books were Jane Eyre and To Kill a Mockingbird in the 6th grade. I paid attention to what she was reading by asking her questions about the story. I truly believe that if parents wish to control what their children absorb via books, the tv or the internet, it is the parents job to be the censor, not the schools or libraries. Thank you, Kaz.

[@A1ic3wonder]

Ive been a silent watcher for some time and I just want to say your videos make me feel like I am a kid again watching PBS documentaries when I was home sick. I know that's super niche but for me your videos always bring a special enjoyment; from the sources, the story telling and the editing it all makes me stay captivated and excited to learn new things. I just wanted to say thank you Kaz for your videos and all the work you put into them

[@namedrop721]

This

[@DiMagnolia]

I feel the same way. I have chronic illness and this channel brings me so much comfort when I’m bedridden because I feel like I’m not just wasting away. Oftentimes I don’t have the capacity to focus on a book, but I do want mental stimulation rather than mindless TV (which also has its place) so I’ll turn to this channel. That’s where I’m at today!

[@LauraMoncur]

Thank you so much for this beautiful analysis. You’re right our libraries now are more important than lamenting a myth.

[@New_Wave_Nancy]

As a librarian I second what you said at the end of the video. Also, your library may well host concerts, film festivals, free classes, etc. - and attendance is counted at these, which goes towards proving how useful a library is and how much funding it should get. (As well as how many items are checked out. I'm hooked on the convenience of ebooks from the library.)

[@cv6442]

I have been putting off getting my library card because my current city isn't... the greatest, and I was having some other issues going on at the time. BUT I finally just got there on Friday and I AM SO GLAD I DID. I knew about most of these things, but they were so helpful to be reminded about. And the librarian was so eager to share everything! Unfortunately, the town I grew up in had a cranky librarian. 😅 She did not do much to tell us about anything, ever, and it felt like they were being... stingy almost? I'm sure it's just under-funding, but mixed with the crankiness, I never felt comfortable asking about these things in depth. 😅 I'm excited to try the museum passes. At ours you check them out like a book. Some are at a discount (usually half off) and some are totally free!! They also not only have the audiobook/ebook app, they also had an app for streaming TV/Movies/documentaries. 😱 Now THAT shocked me!! I knew you could borrow physical movies from the library, but streaming at home?? 🥹🥹🥹 I was just overjoyed with all they offered! This last experience totally reset my idea of what my library visit will feel like in the future. Soo thankful for all the helpful librarians out there. 🙏😊

[@New_Wave_Nancy]

@@cv6442 I'm so glad you discovered what your library has to offer., The last one I worked in had a song download program where you got three free songs a week - to keep! Enjoy.

[@pimba1114]

So I could write this comment in english, but I dont think I would able to truly expresse myself, so it ll be in Brazilian Portuguese :) Que video bom meu deus do céu, a sequência com que vc conta os fatos de maneira linear, e mostrando como uns podem se contradizer e ainda sim darem o contexto de um evento maior, me prendeu pelo vídeo todo. Me peguei pensando sobre o "incêndio" da biblioteca esses dias e tinha ficado meio triste sobre tudo o que pudesse ter se perdido, e você sanou esses meus pensamentos, mostrando que negligência pode ser muito pior que um incêndio da noite pro dia. E o final com seus comentários sobre a Internet me deixaram incrivelmente esperançoso e ao mesmo tempo com medo. Thank you for this video, its a such a master class of history and the meaning of preservation. :)

[@fortywolves]

Yes! This is one of my favorite historical misconceptions to talk about, I'm excited to see your take on it. Your style is always impeccably tied to the topic too.

[@lesagna4867]

I have been watching lots of Kaz's videos lately and i just wanted to say that I'm enjoying them immensely, a lot of times I'm bored when learning about history but the way they talk and explain things is not only entertaining, it's very well-written too, and the jokes here and there make me smile ^^ very well done!!

[@pixel4845]

As a librarian in training, I appreciate this video so much. Me and my colleagues and classmates talk all the time about how we’re running out of time, how we probably won’t be around for much longer because of low funding. Hell, we’re understaffed in the university library I train in and they refuse to hire someone. I’ve even heard a professor say “what good is this library? I just send my students a PDF of the book and that’s that.” So thank you for advocating for us. It always feels like so few people are these days

[@FunkBastid]

Watchu mean “librarian in training”? You learnin da alphabet?

[@pixel4845]

@@FunkBastid I’m… an apprentice? In a library? What’s so difficult to understand, it’s a job I’m learning how to do.

[@_oaktree_]

@@FunkBastid To be a librarian (in the US and Canada), you get a master's degree in library science, which often involves a co-op placement or practicum (like an apprenticeship, but shorter-term and part of the degree programme). But yes, to be a librarian you do have to be literate...

[@FunkBastid]

@@_oaktree_ i was just shitposting. It just turned out to not be very funny.

[@_oaktree_]

@@FunkBastid No harm done! I'm on the autism spectrum and don't always get sarcasm when it's in text and not spoken. Also, there is so much lack of understanding over what librarians really do on the day to day that I tend to assume people really don't know - the sheer number of times I've been told, "you must get to read at work a lot!" The reality is different, lol. Sorry for ruining your joke!

[@mannygutierrez7654]

How is this the first time I've come across this channel? You are so well spoken, love the storytelling

[@samminden1058]

An important thing to note about the quotation from Lucan's The Civil War is that Lucan was a big fan of Cato the Younger and Cicero and hated Caesar, and presented him as the villain of the text and as such would definitely want to exagerrate anything Caesar did to make him more of a heinous villain. Also said epic poem is also what gave us the phrase "The Lost Cause".

[@alanpennie8013]

Livy confirms Lucan's story I believe.

[@samminden1058]

@@alanpennie8013 He might! The problem is that Livy's account of the Caesarian Civil War is one of the many lost parts of Ab Urbe Condita unfortunately. And as the video mentioned, while Caesar definitely did cause a fire at the Siege of Alexandria to break Ptolemy's blockade (who does he think he is, Zhuge Liang at Red Cliff?), the actual damage done to Alexandria is fiercely disputed by later historians like Suetonius and Plutarch.

[@samminden1058]

I think it's also important to note that Lucan was also part of anti-Nero conspiracy that got crushed and he committed suicide (like his hero Cato the Younger) all before he had a chance to finish his epic poem, ending during Caesar's Egyptian campaign. To me, as someone who studies literary history, what Lucan represents is not necessarily an accurate depiction of events but rather a reflection of the era in which he was writing and of broader historical perspectives on his subject matter.

[@alanpennie8013]

@@samminden1058 Do we have anything more reliable? I'd certainly hope we have something earlier than Plutarch and Suetonius.

[@samminden1058]

@@alanpennie8013 not much that survives unfortunately. Livy's Histories that remain only really cover the Founding of Rome up to the Punic Wars. Also in the video, they talk about the problem of sources and how numbers and facts seem to change over time.

[@owen.o.z._5283]

im volunteering at my town's public library thus summer :3 i'll probably just be putting books back on shelves, but it's something to do in my small town, and it helps

[@KlaraL-_-]

As always, what a fascinating topic!! Love your videos 🖤❤

[@sasqwatch]

Yeah, this misrepresentation of what was lost in the burning of the LOA has bothered me for a while. I feel like Oscar in The Office when anyone brings it up, "Well actually..."

[@cowboys846]

This video started by giving me a sense of relief for the past and ended with me terrified for the future

[@l33machine]

The root of this video, about collecting information and physical media for our history, is the exact reason I've been getting more into photography. I don't consider myself important, but I am a part of history. And I want to document that history, even if that history is just my day to day life. I think we really get caught up in big figureheads and people who were important in the past, but we forget there are SO many many MANY people who never had their history recorded. And those people are just as important.

[@scottstallings5029]

I just discovered your channel. Great 👍 👌 stuff! Keep up the fantastic work 👏

[@isaacvaladez22]

I’ve heard before that the myth of the library burning was false & that it decayed over time. This is the first hearing about a second grand library as well as several smaller ones in the city. I’ve also heard about some group borrowing books, copying them, then returning the copies, though it was never linked to the library. It’s pretty cool to hear different pieces being put together like this

[@davidzeto2446]

The myth of the great library of Alexandria and the instance of it's destruction haunted my childhood and my primal shadowy fears about life. At some point in my early adulthood I had read enough to realize the instance of the library's destruction was rather a process of fading away over time from many moments of deterioration and neglect but this understanding then faded from my mind also over time. This little reenactment of memory and knowledge's destruction in my own mind was then my childhood fears more clearly manifested and realized.

[@mikem7900]

I was taught about the library of Alexandria in a history class about the Mediterranean region, every myth I was taught about it was in this video! So crazy that a well studied lecturer at a flagship university (cu) boldly taught it as fact.

[@GRB-tj6uj]

It´s amazing how many popular conceptions about history are either completely wrong or at least very debatable when you really dive into them.

[@jenniferlevine5406]

Wonderful video! Thanks so much for all your efforts.

[@alexfitz2540]

i LOVE the ending. also! get a local library card! you don’t have to use it and it helps the libraries get more funding bc of numbers !

[@YSLRD]

My local library is awful. It was left a million plus endowment by a conscientious woman and that was added to by a dedicated property tax. Totally mismanaged. Since the enormous funding increase, the new books are narrow focused with a strong leaning toward lgbt and witchcraft. Yup, you read that second part right. Our nonfiction section has empty shelf after empty shelf. The pleasant children's library has been in process of a ( bad) remodel for years. In spite of the emptiness, there are multiple racks of books for sale. It's more of an internet cafe than a library. With the new plan, we could save big bucks by just putting the whole thing online.

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

Some people even think that the Library at Alexandria was the ONLY library in the world at the time it was supposedly destroyed, which is complete nonsense. There were certainly other libraries in other major cities.

[@Hell-Catx]

Yes! Support your local library! I volunteered at my library for a few years and it was a great experience. Can confirm, if enough people request a book, the library will buy it & if your local branch doesn't have what you're looking for, you can do an inter branch transfer. The library is more than what you see, there are stacks out of the reach of the public that you can often still borrow from. If the book is not for loan, you will still be allowed to read it in a designated space in the library itself.

[@5superhombre]

Local librarian here, thanks for the message here, it is so important! Like you said, book burnings are one of the rarest ways for us to lose libraries and knowledge!

[@taos1997]

This channel is one of my favorite parts of youtube. Thank you, Kaz, for all your work and dedication! You are inspiring!!!

[@Audunforgard]

The topic at hand Drew my attention, your well rundes discussion held ny interest, aww and you are even pleasing to the eyes, it's a feast! Many years ago I worked as a librarian, when one day a group of people sought my boss, they wanted to help them with working out the lettere and symbolsk adorning the new Alexdrine library. He left is for three months and when he came back, he not ONLY had written a book on alphabets around the world, he Also learned that architects dont value accurate ornamental attention to detail when they had recreated his glyphs on in and out around the rotunda. He was very upset about IT but not much could be dine from that point. I am just proud to have had such a capacity as my senior in my younger years, an original inspiring figure.. Will check out your channel

[@tavshedfjols]

I'm glad the fire at the beginning stopped and you're fine, that looked really scary!

[@LibraryCryptid]

Wow, i really appreciate your comment at the end. As a librarian in a small town, i see the censorship all around and it really feels like I'm alone. My boss isn't as in tune with what's happening and isn't LGBT+, so it's not as personal to her. It feels like librarians are screaming and no one is listening to us. Your shoutout makes me feel a little less alone, thank you.

[@mfuentes4961]

I am a simple bitch. I see Kaz Rowe upload a history video about the library of Alexandria and I will drop everything (including my engineering office work) to watch it. 💁🏽‍♀️

[@BelMisi3000]

I can't believe I attended a class on this subject and never learned any of this

[@mxflint1715]

As a soon-to-be librarian i'm very ecxited about this!

[@mxflint1715]

(Soon meaning i just started uni lol but still, i love books)

[@KazRowe]

Good luck with your degree!

[@amphionification]

I got a Classics degree years ago and I always thought that there was more to this story. Thank you for sharing and I'm glad I found your channel!

[@beezkneez5446]

always like to keep a journal with the idea that some future historian will learn a little bit about daily life through my eyes- been an archivist since i was little!

[@Bluehend]

I love how you always add an aspect of introspection and meaning addition that includes modern life. It’s not just about telling history, but wondering on the meaning of meaning creation itself and what it means for us today. Thank you for your mission, I love your channel ❤

[@christineg8151]

Ptolemy's hunger for books was notorious, and though he theoretically had books copied, he wasn't necessarily taking them from people who had any right to give them up, nor did they necessarily have the ability to wait long enough to *receive* the copies. I feel for the captains of the ships and guardians of the confiscated books! Ptolemy may have indirectly influenced the longevity of many texts, however. Supposedly, due to a rivalry with another library (in Pergamon) he severely restricted or banned the export of papyrus from Egypt, making it harder to copy books. As a result, the use of parchment throughout the Roman empire became much more common. (Some texts actually indicate it was invented as a result, but this is pretty unlikely.) Parchment is MUCH more durable than papyrus, so texts copied onto parchment as a result of this ban were more likely to have endured than texts on papyrus.

[@alanpennie8013]

Good old Pergamon.

[@naxireal869]

*whistles innocently* You truly underestimate Alexander's wisdom and the intent of Alexandria. Especially given block printing is a lot older than the printing press. Sidenote everyone has probably been far too trusting of the Roman account and what records publicly survived through their reign. And I mean far too trusting, well the Romans most are familiar with. Which oddly acted a lot more like Spartans than the freed slaves that actually founded Rome. Fun note Rome's original founder was a woman.

[@ThatDarnMorrie]

Thank you Kaz I'm already extremely addicted to June's Journey and building sapphic headcanon between June and Amelia in my roaring 20's vacation island.

[@kv8441]

Okay this might just only be me, but the thumbnail photo with Kaz standing next to Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and the fall of Rome painting in the background…is honestly such a slay lol 👌🏾✨

[@IanZainea1990]

2:18 in some ways the internet lives up to the myth. Of potential and destruction

[@JakeTheHawk]

"Put a dagger in that" really got me 😂😂 Fantastic video. Learned a lot!

[@brootney111]

Absolutely fantastic video, your content is really enlightening and inspiring. Thank you so much!

[@Historybuff_769]

This is absolutely an amazing channel. I hope it grows. I wish I had found it sooner. Keep the amazing work. Thank you for expanding my knowledge of history

[@BladeRedwind]

As a librarian I can say with confidence this is not something I knew about the library of Alexandria. Thank you for the educational lesson! And also thank you for endorsing all of us information scientists out there! Our job isn't always easy xD

[@abyssimus]

Whenever someone says "we lost so much *science*," I love to bring out the Greek magical papyri. Most people concerned over a loss of scientific knowledge tend to look at the stuff there any go "...oh, this isn't science at all," and then I can turn it around and say "it draws on a system of beliefs that influenced alchemy and astrology, which in turn influenced chemistry and astronomy (and thus physics) -- so it's important for the history of science but not practical science itself." Although some of them don't like hearing that the Abrahamic religions were part of that shift away from magic, since they're the ones that figured "nope, it's not gods making this stuff work, must be natural laws."

[@superbroadcaster]

It's important to remember that it's not just far right groups or helicopter parents that enjoy sanitizing history or knowledge, it's a tool anyone can use and it's something that everyone should be on the lookout for

[@Rinthony1]

Cool cool cool I’m crying right now. Next time someone asks me why I’m getting my bachelors in art history and masters in library science I’m sending them the link to this video.

[@bambihwg4206]

I’m watching this while scanning my grandparents old photos and documents

[@stellastellaluna]

This was amazing! It’s wild how in all my history books (I’ve tried 3 complete core history books from different businesses) and they all say the same that it was a one time burning. This was so interesting!’ I loved this video! I’m excited to show this in my class , I homeschool my 6 kids so they will get some tasty bits here! !

[@deborahborlase7100]

I am delighted that KZbin added you to my feed. Thank you!!

[@kagitsune]

Thank you for being one of the few remaining KZbinrs who is encouraging folks to wear a mask. I appreciate your dedication to our collective health. 💜

[@samanthahurst5806]

I'm a librarian currently scanning 100 year old postcards for an archival database project and just want to say I love your videos and the pro library message! Please support your libraries, archives, museums, and historical societies!

[@arlequinelunaire418]

The Bayt al-Hikmah (House of Wisdom) of Golden Age Baghdad honestly fits the Myth of the Library of Alexandria far better than the actual Library of Alexandria

[@curator3539]

Public library worker here and BLESS YOU for speaking up for our free information exchange forum!

[@khathaway414]

I always welcome your videos Kaz.

[@katieprice9479]

I really do appreciate the sources always being in the description. Thank you!

[@melowlw8638]

"put a dagger in that" how abt 27 👁👁 also if i had a nickel for everytime some old guy used the word cage to insult a place id have two nickels which isnt a lot but its weird that it happened twice the end of the video is making me sad.. but also motivates me for the job i wanna do

[@brookewhitney6672]

the gilded cage analogy...just beautifully written. This is a wonderful video essay thank you!

[@janinabiberger1634]

When you hear the word Alexandria, what do you picture? ...purple eyes?

[@KazRowe]

Aw noooo 😂😂

[@bk16569]

Incredible video 🙌

[@user-wz5uf9yp8l]

Great as always! Love your channel. You might already know this, but there were actually long form written texts created in the Americas pre-contact, although probably not this early. The Aztecs had hundreds of codices on various subjects painted onto amate or deerskin and folded into book form. Sadly the vast majority were destroyed by the Spanish in an effort to impose Christianity and European culture. This is a big reason why we have certain gaps in our knowledge about a pretty recent civilization. It's an event that feels much closer to the myth of the burning of the library of Alexandria than the actual event apparently was.

[@Revivalism23]

Are you Aztec

[@chasewindu404]

It was Hypatia (who is nobody to gloss over herself, she was an absolute boss) that was killed in the "library", not her father Theon... He is said to have passed in 395...

[@ElectrikCandies]

Wait til you hear that Hypathia, as the story is told by Sagan and movies like Agora, is also a myth for the most part. Interesting tidbit; Christianity has its own version of Hypathia in Saint Catherine of Alexandria that survived in folklore until the Middle Ages as retold by Jacques de la Voragine in La légende dorée. Both Christians and Atheists such as Sagan have twisted and embellished her story to fit their respective narratives. From the little info we have about her, she was not young, not Christian, and most certainly not an atheist as well. She also didn't invent anything, and was not ahead of her time or progressive. She taught Neoplatonism, which heavily influenced early Christian thought and is still present to this day in contemporary christianity through concepts like the Holy Trinity. Her myth survived to this day not despite Christianity, but because the belief system she taught was fundamental to modern day Christianity. That and the "young, tragic virgin maiden" trope which is supported by both Christians and Atheists alike (from what we know, she was between 40 and 60 years old when she died)

[@chasewindu404]

@@ElectrikCandiesid like to learn more.... I based my comments around her generally well regarded reputation & the story about her refusing to convert and dying the hard way. All of which are less than historical.

[@ElectrikCandies]

@@chasewindu404 I tried to reply 2 times and both my comments didn't go through. I think it is perhaps because I included an external link and youtube deleted it automatically. So briefly put, look up atheist scholar Tim O'Neil's article about Hypatia on his blog "history for atheists". He has an extensive article about the Library of Alexandria as well. His blog is dedicated to debunking pseudo-history about early Christianity and ancient history. A quick Google search with "Hypatia myth" will show up dozens of articles by ancient history scholars, atheists and christians alike. Even if we're well intended, I don't think we're going to fight religious indoctrination with misinformation. Aside from being very historically inaccurate, these narratives also completely fail to address important issues and discussions we need to have in modern times. In the movie Agora for example, the difference between the "good Christians" and "bad christians" is so obvious it hurts. Why are the "good Christians" clean, well dressed, educated and visibly western while the "bad christians" are dirty, poor, in rags and visibly middle Eastern? It's extremely difficult to summarize the political context of 4th century Alexandria, but these fights were not simply about "religion". They were about morality, values, the nature of reality, class struggles etc. Same as our modern day debates. I highly recommend you to look up the story of Ste Catherine of Alexandria as well (St Catherine was one of the two voices Joan of Ark said she heard as a guide throughout her life). It's basically the same story, except Christianity has Hypatia/Ste Catherine beat all pagan scholars with her impeccable rhetoric, only to be publicly murdered after refusing to marry. And it makes lots of sense considering the fact that Neoplatonism - the system of belief that Hypatia held and teached - heavily influenced what came to be known as Christianity today. Hope you have a good read!