Why the Ride of the Rohirrim was a Tactical Disaster! (And How to Fix It) DOCUMENTARY

[@InvictaHistory]

What other Hollywood battles would you want to see re-designed in Unreal Engine? Improve your career using my code Invicta for 30% off on all their programs! Sign up for a FREE TripleTen career consultation with my link: get.tripleten.com/Invicta

[@magnemoe1]

I say the most "modern" / sci-fi settings fails because of range, Even at the battle of Jutland enemies was just an black blob at an distance unless viewed by powerful binoculars, the larges was the range finders for the main guns linked to analogue fire control computers and 10 km was short range. However this is not kinematic so you go age of sail as in star trek. Star wars get some credit for an WW 2 style there the capital ships stays away but fighters go in close.

[@debbielungsodaitfllo]

Please make a video about battle of the teutoburg forest🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@chubbyninja89]

I'm sorry, but this not another reason why I won't fully commit to subscribing to you. This just seems like yet another dick move made by a know it all historian who hates that people like fantasy and such more than their precious history. I mean, the freaking Polish king Jan Sobieski led the largest cavalry charge in history, of 20,000 horsemen, 5,000 of which were the Polish Winged Hussars, straight at the Ottoman army that greatly outnumbered them, and yet I don't see you or anyone else disputing that. And let's not pretend that the it was some night attack that caught the vast majority of the Ottomans sleeping or something, they were facing the incoming Christian forces.

[@nightlyknight7970]

HELMS DEEP!!!! Battle of Helm's Deep, This might be to big but part 1 and part 2 with the reinforcements with the rohirrim.

[@chubbyninja89]

@@nightlyknight7970 Don't encourage this kind of crap, as it's just stupid bullshit that's trying to pretty much talk down to people who like fantasy stuff. And I don't think that the hill the Rohirrim charge down in The Two Towers was actually supposed to have been as steep as it was in the movie, which was clearly just done for dramatic effect.

[@theholyinquisition389]

In the books there definitely are officers and banners used by the Rohirrim. They also do not charge a line of braced spears. And while there are no definite unit sizes given we can assume them to be a lot smaller than in the movie from some of the descriptions of the battle. The battle unfolds roughly like this: - Rohan bypasses the blocking force of Orcs with help from local tribesmen. - They attack the main army of Mordor in multiple columns and destroy the Orcs on the northern half of the battlefield through their surprise attack in the flank. The Haradrim cavalry tries to meet them head on but are defeated because the Rohirrim have longer lances with Theoden killing the Haradrim chieftain. - The charge stops because the army has reached the northern city walls. - The Witch King kills Theoden and is slain by Eowyn. Eomer takes command and rallies the force for a second charge which manages to drive deep wedges into the enemy frontline, but gets halted by the Mumakil. - The Rohirrim are driven back and partially encircled and prepare to make a dismounted shield wall on a hill for their final stand. - Aragorn arrives with strong reinforcements from southern Gondor and attacks the army of Mordor in the rear. - The army of Mordor is crushed between a Hammer (Aragorn) and Anvil (Rohan and the forces from Minas Tirith). Overall a tactically much more sound battle than the one in the movie.

[@HDreamer]

Not to forget that the Lord of Dol Amroth leads a sortie of the cities Defenders, so the Enemy gets hit by 3 attacks from 3 sides and breaks. Really a much more based battle tactically, that frontal charge and ghost army to save the day. For the great Job PJ made overall, there's all these little changes that are baffling at times. Like when the first gate falls, Gandalf shouts to bring the women and children out of the lower Ring and there's the usual movie chaos of fleeing civilians and Orcs attacking them. But realistically and pretty sure it was the case in the bookm the lower Rings would be evacuated the moment the enemy arrived at the gates. But it's less dramatic, so the movie doesn't do it.

[@Gilgwathir]

@@HDreamer You are quite correct. In fact by the time Gandalf arrives there's a big traffic jam as the civilians leave the city and only fighting men and people with other duties remain within the walls. The city is preparing for a state of siege, although way too late in Gandalf's opinion. There's several mentions how empty and sad the city looks and how the strict rationing of food is rather hard on poor Pipins stomach 😬

[@AndrewDailey-qm8dn]

@@theholyinquisition389 I think people forget that JR was a veteran. He did have a military background so he did have an understanding of tactics. It doesn’t help that people seem to think that movies are exactly like the books down to every little detail

[@andersschmich8600]

Well said! The movie did it thr way it did for the sake of drama, but it was much more tactically sound in the book. Also if I remember correctly, the Orcs made the mistake of destroying the outer ring of fortifications, so they couldn’t hold it against a relief force, like Caesar at Alesia.

[@m.d.f3797]

I was about to say that this guy should have made a comparison of the movie and the books. I don't know how it happened in the book but I am pretty sure it is alway different than what is in the movie. He so should have also analyzed what happened in the book.

[@curtissmith6507]

the real reason why they massed the troops up in the film was because it would have taken another hour for theoden to deliver his speach if it was a 2km long front line.

[@linming5610]

Heh, they could bunch up like that for speech then spread out as they advance and charge.

[@Al_cappuccino19]

@@linming5610by the time they finally spread out the orc would’ve probably scouted them out

[@stein1919]

“I think he said blessed are the cheese makers”

[@Inquisitor_Vex]

Historically, they’d have guys up and down the line repeating the speech.

[@curtissmith6507]

@@Inquisitor_Vex a 2km long game of chineese whispers.

[@ricky7426]

King Theoden slander shan´t be tolerated

[@natekaufman1982]

For it to be slander, what was said must be false. Where was the lie?

[@Purlictor]

What can men do against such reckless hate?

[@entilzha1283]

Where is the horn and the rider?

[@Quickandslick]

Arise! Arise! Riders of theoden!

[@edumatoso214]

King Noob

[@HistoryDose]

I trust in the good King Theoden

[@daviddisilvestro2978]

@@HistoryDose Orome would have smiled at their bravery

[@farahahmed8201]

@@HistoryDose make videos on Tolkien please

[@wyattcole5452]

Fool of a Took

[@martinfiedler4317]

For King, the Rohirrim people, and Rohan!

[@vitorpereira9515]

The Ride worked because those orcs were trained by Ratbag.

[@highlightboy23]

Imagine if those Orcs were the ones from Warcraft and led by Thrall with spellcasters and magic users.

[@brockgundich]

Hey mam ratbag was a hero he was looked up to....by ratbag

[@vitorpereira9515]

@@highlightboy23 If they had been trained by Garl Iron Skull, the Orcs would have mopped the floor.

[@highlightboy23]

@@vitorpereira9515 still, they had no answer to the ethereal army of Aragorn that wiped them off. That is why I brought up Warcraft Orcs because they had access to spells and magic and Thrall is a very powerful shaman, probably a top tier spellcaster in his world and had tonnes of experience in dealing with otherworldy threats.

[@LprogressivesANDliberals]

😂

[@ed_ELA]

Tactically there were a couple of hobbits, and once an army has hobbits, its over

[@Bahala_Nah]

and one woman

[@solocanaanite4655]

there was 1 hobbit for the battle, 1 for the siege and 1 Woman

[@ihl0700677525]

Well said! Those 2 gigachads brought both Isengard and Mordor down, while their friends sneak around like a fool. Imagine if Pippin was the one pimpin the party. He would make those wraiths his b*tches, sweet talk them to carry him to Mordor, and toss the ring into the volcano for him.

[@3.142-x3b]

Tactical Hobbit Strike is an essential component to the SAD doctrine (Sauron's Assured Destruction).

[@AkselGAL]

@@solocanaanite4655 one woman to kill the undead wizard king, one hobbit to kill the oliphaunts. Yea, I know, it is not in the book. But Tolkien spared us the gruesome real events on Pelennor Fields. When the halbling went through the trunk into each oliphaunts skull, stab inside like a berserker. When the oliphaunts falls dead to the ground, the air from the lungs pushed the halfling out, to continue his murderous work.

[@raphaelmorasch4179]

In the books it is described quite differently. With Theodén's forces kind of sneaking in with the help of people from the mountain. And they then actually charge in single groups (because they split up before) it is upon a totally surprised enemy that has no time to from ranks and from mutliple directions at once. Bret Deveraux breaks it down quite good in his Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry

[@RolfHartmann]

Yes, the first Mordor troops were caught completely by surprise, and while I think some of their regiments formed up they didn't have anything like the time they needed to form a continuous defense line which is what they would have needed against a massed cavalry charge.

[@ingold1470]

Turns out a book painstakingly written by a perfectionist war veteran had far more sensible tactics than a movie made by a director who was up to then best known for making monster movies.

[@samuelmellars7855]

@@RolfHartmann Yeah, it's very much a surprise attack on the back line of the seige, then as Mordor forces realise what happened they get more organised, things settle back into a more tactical/strategic fight, that nearly ruins the Rohirrim.

[@baddestmaninthevalley1607]

Yes, in the books the Rohirrim are led by a local guide through a place the Witch King had not accounted for yet, (thick woods) bypassing the Witch King's rear guard. They sneak through the encircling wall (Rammas Echor) then split into three forces attacking the vulnerable flank of a force that had no idea 6,000 expert horsemen were about to clash with them. The orcs in terror then break formation, and the northern half of the Pellanor was overrun. Then the Mûmakil don't just arrive, they were already supporting the Harad infantry, and the Rohirrim horses wouldn't go near them, that's why they had trouble defeating the Mûmakil. Bret Deveraux is an amazing resource, anyone interested in Invicta would enjoy his blog: ACOUP.

[@triplebog]

Thank you for that source, I'd never heard of Bret Deveraux's stuff, and I looked it up because of what you said. Absolutely brilliant!

[@brianhobaugh]

I mean, they were chanting “Death!” They knew they likely weren’t surviving lol. Also, they state in the movie multiple times that they know they are riding to their dooms.

[@Pangora2]

The best way to decrease the chance of doom is to not die instantly by piling all the horses up in a big heap. Even if the battle was a lost cause you might want to "take as many of them with me as I can" but you can't do that on a full frontal cavalry charge.

[@damonhawkes2057]

@@Pangora2 Agree the depth of the formation is just not realistic. Frontal charges, however, are. Not necessarily a GOOD IDEA, but did happen a lot, especially in the high middle ages.

[@MrRenanHappy]

They only start chanting 'Death' in the books when Theoden has died, and that is the exact point things goes to shit for the Rohirrim, because they charge mindlessly back into battle led by a grieving Éomer that thinks both his adoptive father and his sister have died.

[@Subutai_Khan]

@@damonhawkes2057 Yeah you just need trained warhorses. Even at Waterloo with Ney’s botched cavalry charge while the British infantry did come out on top relatively handily, it was by no means easy for them either. They were surrounded by thick smoke, having to stand on corpses of fallen infantry men from gunfire from horseback, and they dealt with cavalrymen who charged them straight on. The charge wasn’t organized as the squares supported each other well with musketry firing close range volleys which broke up the charge and many of the cavalrymen lost heart and veered off but we are told some infantry were still sabers and lanced from a direct charge. I actually struggle to find any accounts of horses getting scared and refusing to engage because of spears. Evidently they were trained to ignore such fears. Modern horses would get scared by spears but not trained warhorses. The riders themselves are usually the ones who have to get the warhorses to not charge so it is usually the riders decision unless the horse is just poorly trained. Interestingly enough in the Napoleonic period lancers were regarded as a potential counter to squares so there is this too. It seems even a square formation with braced infantry could be overcome by frontal charges. I think it is only once you start talking about flat out pikes that a frontal charge starts becoming more impossible. You really need a very long pike to stop incoming horsemen reliably. This is not to say that frontal charging is always the best tactic, clearly flanking and “scooping” were probably done more often as a frontal charge is a gamble and a successful charge has to result in the cavalry continuing to move so frontal charges can be the most difficult to pull off. But it is evident that a frontal charge can work very reliably especially against low quality infantry. And I haven’t found any evidence for scared horses. That is why if a charge fails, the casualties for horses are always so high.

[@nathanbean8763]

@@brianhobaugh ok but even if you actually WANTED to die, you could use some form of strategy in order to take more orcs with you

[@mikeorick6898]

A "spear" may also be used to refer to a unit as a "lance" was. It could mean 3-5 men for each spear/lance. No matter what Tolkien had in mind, it sounds like the siege of Vienna in 1683. There an 18,000 strong cavalry charge led by 3,000 Polish Winged Hussars hit the Turks, though they were in a checkerboard pattern of squares, not a blob. They cut their way through 50,000 Turks, fought off counter attacks, and made it all the way to the Turkish camp. ”It was like a flood of black pitch pouring downhill, crushing and burning everything in its way” - Ottoman observer describes the attack of the relief army.

[@RealCodreX]

Meanwhile, in reality the main army actually attacked BEFORE the cavalry charge while said charge was primarly against reingrcements and neither the main nor the siege army because it was two hours behind their other forces.

[@KingRat71]

Yes, the charge of the Rohirrim is based on the Polish Hussars at Vienna.

[@darthgorthaur258]

The amount of passion you have when saying "we'll agree they deserve to be squashed by the momakil" is so brilliant and lets us know what you truly think 😂😂

[@chubbyninja89]

Yeah, he's totally not being salty and biased at all. Honestly, the fact he bothered to make this video at all makes it seem like he's just jealous that more people tend to like fantasy more than history. And I don't think he's going to mention what the Ride of the Rohirrim is based off of, which was the Great Siege of Vienna in 1683, in which the real King Theoden, Jan Sobieski led the largest cavalry charge in history, which had 20,000 horsemen, 5,000 of which were his Polish Winged Hussars, which he led from the front, straight into the Ottoman forces.

[@Bananasqwe]

@@chubbyninja89 You didn't watch it did you?

[@chubbyninja89]

@@Bananasqwe No, because when he starts out all but saying that the scene in question is incredibly stupid and all, I'm not going to feel too inclined to want to listen to whatever petty drivel might have to say after that. But I know that people like *you* would no doubt be total hypocrites and not watch the entire video if someone else made a video titled "Cry more History Nerds!" or something like that, that basically mocks the fact that "historians" and such are constantly getting mad and all over movie scenes and such. Don't try to lie and say you would absolutely watch the entirety of such a video, because I know far too many people these days are willing to try to have double standards about things they like.

[@Yuel402]

​@@chubbyninja89dumbass

[@nopenever9829]

@@chubbyninja89 Damn ... your texts read like you are salty af ... I work as Software developer ... you have N O idea how funny it is to watch Movies with hacking scences or tech in general ... The stupidity is mindblowing sometimes ... BUT they are Movies and are made to entertain ... and the Guy in the video said multible times how entertaining this scene is ... MULTIBLE times ... He did mention the defense of Vienna to make that clear ... If you read about history ... Stupid af attacks or Battle plans are completly common ... this is NOT about history vs Fantasy this is about "what would have been smarter and lets look at history to see what DID work"

[@TemplinInstitute]

This type of slander is unforgiveable.

[@InvictaHistory]

Haha I feel as though I blasphemed with this one but it's something that's increasingly bugged me as we've been reconstructing ancient armies in Unreal Engine. (Love your content by the way!)

[@TemplinInstitute]

@@InvictaHistory Okay, it might be slightly forgivable. Fan of yours too!

[@WhatIsSanity]

Wow! I didn't realise how much respect this channel got in the community, this is the fourth creator channel I've seen commenting. It's really heart warming seeing some of my favourite channels all in one place. 🙂

[@Janovich]

Ironic coming from this guy who shat on the warhammer community

[@adamjd7645]

@InvictaHistory I think that's the point though. It's not a historic battle. Tolkein didn't expect it to be. His themes are far more centred on victory being delivered through fate, honour, righteousness. Battle for Tolkein was always a metaphor for something else. That's putting aside the fantasy aspects that throw the entire world into conflict with military practice as we know it.

[@Crest28]

Considering the context of the battle, Theoden was doing pretty good since the orcs were caught off guard by the heavy cavalry charge. Mumakil did the same to Theoden, caught them by surprise n he reacted in the moment

[@SimonMoreal]

Imagine getting caught by surprise by building sized animals on a flat field with ankle height grass 💀💀💀

[@oscarandreas1431]

@@SimonMorealworked for Hannibal i guess

[@teambellavsteamalice]

Yes, the orcs only expected a siege, there weren't supposed to be any cavalry charges. Except for some brawling and infighting it was probably every orcs first real battle. They might never have a cavalry charge and not been trained to use spears and pikes well. Cinematically it looks like an unstoppable force, so everyone starts running. Even if you kill a dozen it doesn't seem to matter. A wide line of only 6 horses deep is easily killed if you have unlimited depth infantry. I'd expect thin deep parallel lines 3*50? Doing most damage and keeping momentum. Like each pierces and is followed by 50 drive by attacks. So the engagement surface is on the sides of each unit. With lots of space (50-100 orcs wide) in between most of the orc will do nothing but watch as they hear people getting butchered left and right. The piercing lines can then slowly turn and move around keeping the pace while a unit behind them pierces a different chaotic part. It does need some training and coordination so as not to bump into each other or shift like schools of fish/flocks of birds.

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

@@teambellavsteamalice In the books at least the orcs would have been familiar with cavalry due to Gondor mounting a cavalry charge to delay the enemy's advance upon the city. Unlike in the movie this was not a pointless charge and it actually had some effect.

[@nathanbean8763]

@@oscarandreas1431Hannibal crossed through mountains considered completely uninhabitable, that is why he shocked the Romans. If he had elephants that were ten times larger and advancing towards a Roman army across a flat plain, nobody would have been caught off guard

[@user-ur4nl6dq2x]

I love this! Using fiction to teach IRL history/military is a great idea. Whatever IRL lessons are learnt, doesn't make the scene any less stunning and impactful and epic, AND we get to learn something new ❤

[@InvictaHistory]

That's my approach on this. I really just wanted to talk about the historical use of cavalry but using a fantasy battle everyone is familiar with helps better illustrate a lot of the points.

[@FlaviusRed23]

​@@InvictaHistory Can you make a video if the Eastern Romans won at 1453 siege. With the siege won Constantine XI asked for crusade to recapture lost lands which the Pope agreed to. Romans re control all of Greece once again and holded the Ottomans off. Would the Romans joined WW1 and WW2? Would they kick their Emperor like everyone else after WW1? What would the Romans soilders look like and the people? As we know the Romans are very good people to adopted to things and make it better?

[@knight.paladin1214]

Seems like a lot of y'all would benefit from reading the book, its MUCH more tactically sound, if I recall it involves 3 divisions and an envelopment + the Southrons actually counter-charge Rohan with their cavalry and there's a cavalry battle. Very cool

[@_Dibbler_]

Here is the problem: Many books are quite accurate but the movies(or tv shows) make a mess out of it. Even the Uthred saga, where Cornwell spends dozens of pages to describe battles back then are as unorganized as school boy fights in The Last Kingdom Netflix adaptation. And it cant really be that way to be "cinematic", as a mess just is not cinematic, its just a mess. And its one huge thing I always disliked about Peter Jacksons Lord of the rings, the battles are just a brainless Orc-slaugher

[@SaucyNetworkEntertainment]

@@knight.paladin1214 we don't read words on paper like some savage. Movie is basically the same

[@MBP1918]

Should’ve played the Ride of the Rohirrim in Third Age: Total War smhmh.

[@Lancasterlaw1175]

Can't get 6000 riders in, let alone 100k opposition

[@satnav9699]

Divide and Conquer is more Updated and better then TATW, also Dawnless Days (Attila mod version) is coming along nicely

[@deltaraider87]

Pixelated Apollo has a few play throughs of the Battle of Minas Tirith

[@Pangora2]

Any war movie where the two armies charged into each other at full speed is probably wrong. Some of these ancient style battles took all day to fight, and you can't do that if your most courageous men run into a wall of wood and steel in the first light of dawn.

[@sirjmo]

The only war I can think of where this would be true is Pharnaces of Bosporus against Ceasar where there was one battle, the battle of Zela. Which probably still took hours.

[@Pangora2]

@@sirjmo And we can cite the Gauls assaults where they do run in full speed to close the distance. Romans were known to shield bash and stab. Though as with what we're saying if they do run into full speed they had a reason for it. War movies just think it is that in all cases, when it would look closer to riot police charging down protesters. Of that we have many examples and if the other side was at all similarly equipped would go on for some timr

[@PcCAvioN]

@@Pangora2 most filmmakers' greatest experience with melee combat is middle school playground fights. That's all they know, and that's all they represent on screen

[@chubbyninja89]

You guys need to stop being jealous that people tend to like fantasy more than history. It just makes you all look incredibly petty. I mean, the true King Theoden, Jan Sobieski led the largest cavalry charge in history, which was 20,000 horsemen, 5,000 of which were his Polish Winged Hussars, which he led from the front, straight into the Ottoman forces, which still greatly outnumbered them. Yet I don't see Invicta or any of you guys mentioning that little fact.

[@Pangora2]

@@chubbyninja89 The cavalry charge took place over 12 hours after the battle started, after a preliminary probe of 120 horses found out what spot they should charge into. History is great and I'd be honored to be among their ranks. All the fictional stories are just watered down versions of things that already happened.

[@StefanoUrsella]

This video can be summarized in "longher>thicker"

[@maciejboron9829]

Fun fact: The winged hussars in many battles (including the relief of Vienna) were riding with relatively big gabs between them and were closing them only were they were really close to the enemy, which extrapolates the point, that you need to have gaps between cavalary.

[@alexTorres-cs7co]

they were charging against ranged firepower, those gaps are for avoiding ranged fire mostly, arrows dont have that stomp/penetration power, if your armored enough your impervious to arrow fire.

[@Kramplarv]

the swedish cavalry of the late 1600s and most of the 1700s had a very close formation. As small gap as possible between riders and just ride in and smash the enemy with their rapiers. And for about 50 years that tactics were very successful. I believe what cavalry need for distance changes over time in response to the gear they and the enemy have. :)

[@AndrewSienx]

Misunderstanding - Hussars charged with loose order to avoid musket fire till the last salvo - about 50 m. The losses were small, mostly horses. But at the last moment, they closed in very tight formation for the final hit. Then they back-up in the dispersed form again, to hit again. It happened that in battles (e.g. Kircholm) hussars charged many times - sometimes even like 13 times. Each time, horses were the main losers, and support riders (pocztowi) replaced them between charges. It was very sophisticated and difficult tactics, the knowledge perhaps paid dearly during conflicts with very mobile Mongols.

[@RealCodreX]

Also fun fact: The cavalry of the siege of Vienna was charging alsmot two hours after the main force has started to clash with the ottomans brcause they were slowed down by navigating a forest with their horses.

[@ronniegonzalez8622]

I think the literal book reasoning behind the charge at the Battle of Pelennor Field is facing the inevitability of death bravely. You don’t yell “Death” three times before doing something if you’re looking for a positive outcome (usually) 😊

[@konstantinriumin2657]

In the books they don't yell death at that charge. They yell death after Eomer learns of Eowyn's death and leads them into mumakil and haradrim forces. During initial charge, they sing instead

[@ronniegonzalez8622]

@@konstantinriumin2657 was the charge against the Haradrim during the battle of Pelennor? I haven’t read the books since I was in my early 20s. There’s brain damage and time between me and the details.

[@randomelite4562]

@@ronniegonzalez8622They charged against the army besieging Minas Tirith, which primarily was made up of Orcs/Uruks, with contingents from Harad and the Easterlings

[@cc0767]

You dont shout DEATH DEATH DEATH! when you get in your car to drive to work every day? Just me? Is that why I get those weird looks?

[@natekaufman1982]

In that case, shouldn't you use the tactics that have the greatest chance of inflicting the most damage on the enemy?

[@HermannCortez]

Cavalry units typically formed 3 lines about 50 metres apart when conducting a charge. Ideally troopers rode knee to knee in each line to maximise the impact of the charge. Charges usually began slowly with only the last 50m or so being at the gallop

[@robertmyers4664]

Interesting video, but I am rather disappointed you mainly addressed the movie and failed to give Tolkien the credit he deserved. It would have been great to give a shoutout to his army structure which features 120-rider Eöreds, which would correspond somewhat with the historical strategy you sought to highlight. These riders may have not been able to spread out early, due to the details of their approach in the books, but I do believe it is implied that they did spread out once reaching the outer wall, and once the battle was engaged, and the eöred commanders were all given substantial autonomy in the field. I know your main focus was to dispel cinematic myths about warfare, but the organization of Rohan‘s military is quite interesting and well done by talking and deserved some talk.

[@AScottishCatholic]

It was always my understanding that Theoden showed up, saw that Minas Tirith had basically already fallen and just decided to go out in a blaze of glory rather than run away back to Rohan to cower in his slowly crumbling forts. The ride of the Rohirrim wasn't supposed to be a tactical engagement, it was basically just suicide by combat. Hence why Theoden didn't really make any actual plan.

[@voice_of_terra7228]

He was in that mood since Helm's Deep ride out.

[@Wriath9]

@@AScottishCatholic That is exactly what Theoden was thinking. Seeing what he thought was a conquered Gondor he knew the war was lost. His only choice was go out in glory quickly or die a slow death later trying to defend his keep against an unbeatable foe.

[@Canadian_Zac]

There's a reason the battle cry wasn't about saving Gondor The battle cry was DEATH He saw the fight, thought 'well, we're boned. Lets go out killing some fuckers. GO!'

[@MrRenanHappy]

That's not what happens in the books. This occurs in the movies because Peter Jackson is ignoring any actual tactics and just going for the rule of cool.

[@chibonchibon3967]

Its cool in the movie, thanks for mentioning the book is different, I will start reading it, Yup I never read it lol

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

To be fair in the Movie the Orcs where panicking and routing before Thedoens riders, it was not until the Haradarian where in positioned and advanced that it was stopped and even then the Rohirrim where seeming to hold their own until the Witch King took out Théoden King. Also Théoden had to take action fast in the film, he saw in the movie the city was breached and the first two levels at least where in flames and overrun, he likely took this charge option to quickly draw attention away from Minis Tirith of the Mordor Army and give the defenders some relief from the hordes. He had to act or lose the City and the initiative, the Mordor Army was massive in the film dwarfing it's book counterpart even in scale and the book army was a large army. Likely if Théoden had wasted time the Witch King or his sub commanders would have used the time to adapt the army formation and units to counter the Rohirrim and cut them off from any chance of reaching the city. As to why they charge the Elephants in the film, it's likely done by Théoden just to keep his men moving and maintain the momentum, he took action rather than do nothing at all. Let's also not forget the big factor in the room now, the presence of the Witch King and his Nazgul who are bringing dread and terror to the Battlefield by the sheer presence. This is likely why the men are so clung together to keep each inspired and not given into to fear as Gandalf said once. The Mordor was not going to break not until the Witch King was defeated, Sauron's grip on it through fear was too strong through the Witch King for that happen. In the Book the Rohirrim flattened the Easterling and Harad cavalry and nearly created a route of the Orc body of the Army until the Witch King took out Théoden and the Harad oliphants countered the Rohirrim. Then Aragorn returned with the southern fiefdoms troops of Gondor, his Arnorian rangers, Gimli and Legolas and Elrond's sons. The Gondorians in the book still held the whole city minus some parts of the first wall, they sallied out to meet the Rohirrim and fight alongside them. The book battle was more like a real life battle and had more correct tactics for both sides. I will say though if you must change the very fundamentals of the Rohirrim then your no longer creating a better scenario for them, but instead just replacing them with another force in reality. I don't think the revised version of the Rohirrim would win either, Mordor's army was in formations as well in the Film and had the manpower to counter the Rohirrim even this revised version of it. Don't forget the Mordor forces also where locked in fear of the Witch King and so weren't going to flee until he was taken out or their army was nearly wiped out. I dare say likely this more spread out Rohirrim force would be in time encircled and forced into pockets and slowly destroyed separated from each others support.

[@nathanindarsingh5252]

I'm sure the cavalry would have been advancing in formation, so it wouldn't take as long to deploy as you think. I'm also certain that the Rohirrim have the morale and training to utilize small unit tactics effectively. There's a reason so much was said about the depth of the formation not being as important for cavalry, the revised formation allows for the same effect of a heavy cavalry charge, since horses don't push like men do, but the difference is that instead of only advancing across a 400 meter front, it's over a mile wide and has better maneuverability and morale. Time wouldn't be an issue because the units would join the battle as they arrive since they're moving in formation, and thus instead of a single doomed charge you'll have four which are just as powerful, with better C&C and higher morale, with the first charge arriving at exactly the same time as the charge arrived in the movie. This also means that instead of the orcs focusing their entire attention on a single front, they'll have to divide their forces, so even if some of the revised units just arrive at the battle and stand there, they're effectively multiplying the effect of the horsemen who are attacking. This charge didn't HAVE to be a suicide charge.

[@Bahala_Nah]

This is a good rebuttal

[@SizzleCorndog]

Finally, the deep lore

[@mikeg8564]

When your enemy is immortal and rides... basically a dragon. Morale of riding 15 deep makes more sense.

[@nathanindarsingh5252]

@@mikeg8564 morale is not going to be a problem for an army that is doing a "suicide charge" though.. so there's no need for a fifteen deep formation that adds zero benefits and at the same time reduces your frontage and effectiveness. For all we know, Tolkein probably wrote this blunder on purpose to highlight the panic of the moment.

[@spiffygonzales5160]

A few issues with this . We DO see banners. Both during and before the charge. Theoden and the people he talked to are commanding the formations, and they also make use of horns to communicate orders. . Frontal charges aren't this super insane borderline blasphemous idea that a lot of people seem to believe. Obviously they aren't the smartest thing in most situations, but they were most definitely used in a plethora of situations in history. The battle of Montgisard for example where Baldwin defeated Saladin ended in a charge against Saladins forces and despite being greatly outnumbered Baldwin won. . You contradict yourself when talking about the units being way too deep where you say that units in the back aren't doing anything then later when talking about formations you say they help force the line through. Ultimately this was the goal of the rohirrim (movie wise, not sure about the book), because... . The entire goal was to force a rout. 1. Orcs and especially goblins are cowardly. And 2. If they didn't rout humanity would lose. They were too outnumbered, the orcs had already taken most of the city, the white wizard was defeated, there were numerous nazgul, and humanity for all respects and purposes was defeated. If Saurons army didn't run than humanity was doomed anyway. They were 6 thousand against whatever was left of the 100+ thousand orcs. Thats why they chanted "death". Because 1. Sauron and/or morgoth convinced man that death was bad when in reality it was a gift from Eru, and they no longer feared it. And 2. Its almost certainly what they were riding towards regardless what tactic they used. You either tried to force a rout in a final hail mary, or you actually try to take on a hundred thousand orcs with only six thousand cavalry. Actually montgisard like i mentioned is a perfect example here. The orcs outside the city were disorganized, had unfavorable terrain, were tired from all the marching and fighting, and so on. And like montgisard the rohirrim really didn't have much in their favor aside from "God's on our side." . You ask "how are you going to reform, how are you going to move, really you can only go in one direction". Thats actually the point for them. I want you to think about qhat happens to many of your army wings with thousand of arrows going their way. If you were an orc you'd be a lot less terrified of a bunch of small groups of cavalry and much more terrified seeing the "massive blob" so to speak. If this was something like 6K rohirrim vs 30k orcs i could see it. But again... This was over one hundred thousand, not even including the reinforcements rohan would've believed were coming from the sea, the easterlings, or the mumakil. Also the wring wraiths. We saw what they could do to units even outside of formations. If they were to attack a massive blob there'd be thousands of spears waiting for them as opposed, lets say, 30. Good vid regardless. Edit: "Only the bravest and most well trained horses would ever charge headfirst into spears" Sir this is Rohan. Edit 2: also the army of the dead thing isnt as impressive as people seem to think. This is unrelated to the video, but they used to worship sauron (or morgoth i forget) so if aragorn were to keep them its entirely possible, if not likely, that sauron would've corrupted them. And thats assuming that the guys literally called "the oath breakers" decided to just go along with whatever aragorn said anyways.

[@maizen1403]

@@spiffygonzales5160 Oh great example with Battle of Montsigard. On related note, sometimes I do think if the French is so obsessed with their cavalry charge but they do have score a lot of decisive victories thanks to cavalry like on Battle of Patay, Battle of Eylau

[@witchking2063]

Yeah this is good stuff. I am always annoyed at clickbait like this. Rohan are the horelords not horse novices. Also this is an army shouting "Death" they clearly are aiming for that brutal likely, unsurvivable relief for their allies.

[@carlost856]

fr, the horses didn't flinch when they saw the Mumakil, real horses are scared of regular elphants, this are the most trained horses that can possibly be.

[@Yusuf1187]

The Battle of Montgisard is not comparable to how Peter Jackson depicted this. At Montgisard, the Muslims were not already engaged in battle in packed ranks of spears like at Pelennor Fields. They were dispersed to forage and were taken by surprise. Some didn't even have their weapons when Baldwin appeared. They had to scramble to put up a disorganized resistance when they thought they were going to spend the day basically grocery shopping and stealing from the locals. And the knights at Montgisard certainly were not bunched together in a Hollywood blob the way PJ shows the Rohirrim. They would have operated like Invicta describes, being more spread out to take advantage of their maneuverability and maximize the effect of their numbers. As for saying that the orcs were on unfavorable terrain, I don't know what you mean by that. It's a field. And PJ doesn't have the Rohirrim make use of the flexibility of cavalry that an open field should afford them, which is the point of the video.

[@spiffygonzales5160]

@@Yusuf1187 My comparison for montisgard was only meant to show that an inferior cavalry force could win a full frontal charge against superior numbers

[@MrRenanHappy]

Are you comparing the books as well or just going over the movie scenes? Because there is already a whole series of articles that compares the books and the movies, done by A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. It is very interesting, and if anybody else in this comment section is interested in learning about the differences of what Peter Jackson did and how Tolkien actually wrote things, and both compared to real military tactics and historical realism, I'd recommend the read.

[@etheu9sby292]

What's it called. Because in the books it's somewhat different. Not mention there was a large contingent of men from the east fighting for sauron. And if I remember correctly the soldiers of Gondor sally out during the charge.

[@MrRenanHappy]

@@etheu9sby292 just look for the siege of Gondor and Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry. He also covers Helms Deep.

[@archmeasterjackimer6217]

In the books the Ride (as i read it) happens with Theoden designating 3 leading Eoreds (the Rohirric word for company or unit) that includes his own and Eomers that are to form 3 spearheads of the charge that the Eoreds behind can follow as their marshals deem best. You do get the sense the Ride was much more widely dispersed since after the initial charge Theodens Eored is described as far ahead of other formations with no enemies immediately there. The Rohirrim also dont directly charge the flank but achieve a attack on the rightward rear of the army of Mordor. In the books the orcs aren't in a giant column square before the city but are deployed in a semi circle with trenches encircling Minas Tirith. The orcs were "all drawn off to the assault" Also. This is base heresy and the grand conclave of stewards of Middle Earth and the Writings of the master Tolkien shall meet in counsel to decide your doom.

[@V.B.Squire]

0:20 you must really like pain

[@mattmattmatt131313]

To this day the most effective use of cavalry in practice I have ever seen was in this game called Mount&Blade in an online server with real players as seen from the perspective of the opposing force infantryman. These quite small groups of cavalrymen 10-20 men each, hit the infantry formation at a glancing charge like you showed in the example in this video. Never in a direct charge, if the swing connected or it did not they rode on regardless. High speed, hit and run. As the first group of riders retreated to regroup for another charge some distance away, the second group was already in the process of conducting their own charge. And they just rotated like this until they dwindled the enemy numbers down so much they basically just cleaned up the survivors. From the perspective of the enemy infantryman (already occupied with dealing with enemy infantry as well) this meant a high speed deadly cavalry charge coming from a random direction every 15- 25 seconds that was extremely hard to counter. Even if that particular charge did not result in any kills, the disruption it caused in the infantry formation made them much much less effective in the battlefield. How historically accurate this tactic would be I have absolutely no idea, but it worked like a charm in the game.

[@WhatIsSanity]

It is how I commanded my cavalry in the game, and how the bot commanders used them in the sequel -Bannerlord. So not only could you use these tactics, but have them used against you! They are quite effective. Especially if your horses and riders have good armour. I always purchase full mail barding if I intend on forcing my poor horses into the charge.

[@ZachariahTripp]

Mote how the ai tries to use them. Having played Bannerlord the AI does not handle using cav well (unless they updated that, it has been a bit since i played last). That said, cycle-charges when done properly, especially spearheaded against flanks, have worked well both in game and in history.

[@teddypicker8799]

@@ZachariahTripp yeah in bannerlord the ai splits their cav on the flanks but then will charge enemy cav no matter how outnumbered. Great game though huge improvement on warband

[@flomparolic]

While I appreciate the approach of criticising the film's portrayal, which is absolutely done more for visual spectacle than proper battle tactics and strategies, I will note a few things: 1. The Rohirrim arrived unannounced, at dawn, in the rear of Mordor's formation. What little defence the orcs put up was most certainly not enough. Those braced orcs in the film could not have been more than one or two deep at best. All this is to say, that the bulk of the army was at the walls and gate, and attempting to (and succeeding in) storm the first ring of the city. 2. The orcs are notorious for their terrible morale and even worse discipline. It took a general like the Witch King to corral them into the fight, and he likely knew well that the moment fortune turned against the host, they would shatter and flee. That specifically is why he was first in through the gates, using his effect upon mortals to make a strong breach. The morale point is even more salient, as the Rohirrim's arrival would alone be a morale shock, but that it was an arrival immediately followed by a direct charge into the rear would only amplify the effects. 3. Theoden himself is described as a literal godlike figure charging down across the grass "as Aule of old". We often hear stories of single men doing more and having greater effect than any manner of number in history, such as Alexander. It is clear here that the presence of Theoden at the tip of the charge can be directly compared to Alexander at Gaugamela. The city is the fixing force, the Rohirrim the Companions. 4. Not shown in the film, Theoden and his officers agonise a great deal about their strategy upon arriving at Minas Tirith. That they are able to completely bypass the uruks guarding the northern road to Gondor is a wild stroke of fortune for them, which they capitalise to the maximum. Theoden deliberately splits off a portion of his riders to circle the wall and attack from another angle, as well as a second detatchment to delay the force guarding the road from reinforcing Minas Tirith. In short, it is perhaps tactically unsound if we were to assume that Men, not orcs were the besieging force. However Theoden knows his enemy, and knows that a single powerful charge at the correct moment will completely break the host. It is genuinely only the arrival of the Witch King which stops the Ride from being an unmitigated success, as his mere presence drives horses mad, destroying plans and formations without effort. Finally, the arrival of the Grey Company seals the deal. Think of it from the Witch King's perspective. He has a powerful, but unreliable, force which has had great success in taking its initial objective, which comes under attack at its most vulnerable moment, from two different direction. He's needed in three places at once, and so picks the most dangerous foe to his plans to avoid his whole force falling apart.

[@chrisc1140]

To expand on the last bit in your first point, the "pikes" (as said by their general before the charge starts) are shorter in their hands than a Napoleonic musket with a bayonet braced on the ground, PLUS they're just held out, not braced firmly. And in the last couple shots before contact, almost the entire backline and some of the front start to turn and run. Meaning there's _only_ a single disjointed rank of unbraced short spears in front of a solid block of cavalry at full gallop headed down a hill.

[@flomparolic]

Pikes in a medieval setting referred to a great many different spear lengths. A great example is Henry V of England's King's Guard, who wielded pikes barely 6' long with a lovely tassel just below the head to absorb blood. As for not being braced - the method of use for these short pikes was to hold them close to the head and brace the pike behind you. A formation of men can easily form a dense wall 2 ranks deep with even short pikes like those. Overall the orc weaponry and arrangement is fine, the problem is largely one of morale and/or discipline as you pointed out.

[@slartybarfastb3648]

I also find it interesting how modern tactics have not strayed nearly as far from historic tactics as many tend to believe. Yes, maneuver is faster now, weapons range is much farther and lethal, but the underlying strategies are relatively unchanged. They may appear very fifferent at the micro level, but zoom out and the organization and distribution of various capabilities are much the same. Substitute cavalry for army aviation, dragoons for mechanized infantry, light infantry for special forces, etc. Their purposes and placement on the battlefield would be recognizeable to any Napoleonic or American Civil War general.

[@MrPlainsflyer]

Faborite line "had this been historic, theyd have taken a historic whuppin"

[@cobtaig408]

Love the tactical review and your changes but no matter what you have to admit, the Charge of the Rohirrim is the coolest scene ever (regardless of realism)

[@HiopX]

Legolas skating down stairs on shield begs to differ

[@michaeldolan6781]

An important distinction in the books is the terrain: instead of an open field and a single mass of enemy forces, book Rohirrim showed up to many scattered units of enemies mixed up in farms, smaller hamlets, and hedges. Between the noise and orc distraction upon the walls, it's not crazy that the Rohirrim, moving in a few smaller bands, were able to deliver a hefty punch before the orcs could retaliate. My critiques aside, I love your content, and am eagerly awaiting the next Tyranid video. Cheers Invicta. 😊 Edited: I jumped the gun, posting less than three minutes into the video, before you mentioned the Rammas Echor. Though I'd still consider the film and book terrain different enough that you can't consider them the same. Dr. Konijnendijk wasn't on hand to teach the orcs ditches.

[@Gilgwathir]

Actually, the orcs dug ditches, but from how it's written, they were intended to protect their siege engins from cavalry charges from the city, not to cover their rear. That was supposed to be the job of the rear guard that was sent out to guard the goard. Which would have worked if it hadn't been for the Druadan

[@chrisvickers7928]

Read this first in 1969 and thought Tolkien had cribbed from King Sobieski's homework including sneaking through the woods to achieve tactical surprise.

[@Pangora2]

I think the most shocking thing about this video, is that people are coming to a history channel and telling you not to view it through a historical lens. it would be like going to a hospital and complaining everyone is so concerned about health.

[@DakkogiRauru23]

Although I’m not sure how well it would go when viewing fantasy through a historical lens, since it’s not a 1 to 1 internal system.

[@linming5610]

​​​​@@DakkogiRauru23I don't know but there's no dragons, mythical creatures, besides fellbeasts and mumakil, or magic involved in the scene. It's mostly horses and humans, or humanoid species fighting, which we have historical reference of how it's conducted, I don't really know why we shouldn't consult history for this. The scene doesn't have that much magic. So yeah, it's still generally realistic in a sense that we can explain it with our real life physics or history.

[@DakkogiRauru23]

@@linming5610 Based on how the humans and horses of Rohan are portrayed in the film, they do not act like real world horses or people physiologically. Rohirric horses in the film seem to be impervious to spear walls, for example, and aren’t limited by any mass of infantry when charging.

[@linming5610]

​​​@@DakkogiRauru23we aren't talking about horses here. We are talking command and control of cavalry. This idea can still be roughly imported to fantasy settings.

[@DakkogiRauru23]

@@linming5610 Command and control of cavalry, which includes knowing the physical traits of the steeds employed. You should know as a history enthusiasts that different cultures used different breeds of horses in their wars and to varying effects. And if the Rohirric horse itself is so powerful that it can trample scores-deep ranks, then that mount is considered a top-of-the-line weapon and is extremely valuable to an army. And based on their performance against the Mordor host, the horses on their own have proven to be devastating weapons with hides impregnable by infantry weaponry.

[@JackDespero]

You forgot the most important part: The sheer epicness of the situation grants all the weapons +1 to hit and wound, thus turning the fight into their favour.

[@peka2478]

29:05 the revised army now using meters instead of Imperial units makes this much more professional already!

[@UgandanWarriorofHell]

I LOVE THIS! especially the cavalry formation attacking from an angled direction is actually really accurate. the grazing and waiting to see if the enemy formation crumbles before collision, either graze the outer sections or plow through if the enemy resolve crumbles

[@Gigas0101]

The impression I got from the books was that the 6000 Rohirrim were able to make a successful flank attack and surprise the orcs, and that the movie changed it up to try and make that seem like a separate, more dynamic battle. Either way, this is a nifty little formation, I like the looks of it.

[@TheAbundantDuck]

@@Gigas0101 you forgot the horns. Might be great for morale, but a total strategic blunder compared to slamming into a flank unannounced. Always better than giving them time to turn about and dig the back ends of their spears into the ground.

[@Barwasser]

You are the best kind of nerd. I *love* these kinds of discussions - this is what being a LotR fan is all about!

[@tyrson4331]

20:47 in late medieval times, i understand cavalry was supposed to touch each other, specifically heavy armoured knights. They fought knee to knee, in a tight formation

[@Mammel248]

Gotta love that scale! I watch battlefield documentaries often with my friends and sometimes they're like "why didn't they just send some units to the flank that's being overrun?". Well, because it takes time to get a messenger on horseback from that flank to your command post, probably 1-2 kilometers away, and then again even more time to organize your reserves and send them over that same distance. It would probably take at least half an hour to get your reserves where they need to go, which is a VERY long time if that flank has been surrounded.

[@jamesnave1249]

You're a brave man having a crack at the ride of the Rohirrim

[@seantomlinson3320]

Beautifully done. I knew watching the charge in the theater the tactics were dumb. Still one of my favorite scenes ever.

[@harmacist6623]

As epic and glorious as the movie scene was, my inner Total War nerd is rolling around shouting profanities lmao.

[@maxreardon1149]

I didn’t think the formation change would do anything but honestly when at the end you compared them and pointed out what was likely going on I got anxious just thinking of being in the big blob and got an immediate morale boost thinking of the more realistic one. Like holy crap that one just feels more in control more able to improvise or adapt to the situation. Not gonna lie I’d love to see a full recreation of what could have happened with the revised army. Nothing against the original because it’s cinematic af and I’ll still get that adrenaline pump but oh man that could still be a really badass scene.

[@rileyernst9086]

You are kinda forgetting several parts: 1 The part where the Orcs hate and fear the sun, and are not expecting it to come out for the siege. 2 The part where the Orcs have a blocking army in position to prevent the Rohirrim from aiding Miras Tirith. The Rohirrim bypass this army and appear with no warning. 3 The part where Orcs hate and fear horses. There is no doubt that the orcs would break. But I do agree that they would want to be more effective.

[@romandacil3984]

Tolkien talks about the Rohirrim Command structure and unit size in Unfinished Tales. The Basic unit was the Eored of 120 Riders. There would have been 50 Eoreds (120x50=6,000). I think they would have had a frontage 30 eored with 20 eored in reserve or in the 2nd rank. Each Eored would have been in a Wedge formation except Horse Archers who would not have charged but advance fire and then retreat or fire from the flanks. There might have dedicated Eoreds as Missle troops (bows & throwing spears) but no more than 10 Eoreds Theoden/Eomer took the center, Grimbold took the Left Flank and Elfhelm was on the Right Flank. So say Eomer had 20 Eoreds which included Theoden's Personal Guard Eored , Elfhelm & Grimbold had 15 Eoreds Each. Elfhelm attack went down into the siege weapons, Eomer & Theoden hit the center of the Mordorin Right Flank and Grimbold would have hit the rear of the Right Flank.

[@jeremyta818]

With time, I tend to forgot how my first reaction was when I watch the movie, younger : "that's not what it was written, where is Elfhelm ? Grimbold going right flank ? Eomer not at the center?

[@neodigremo]

Of course we know that in the book there is a lot more actual tactics being used. Not detailed or fully explained but more sensible e.g. they are moving around farmyards and the like. They also acknowledge that they will need to wait to see the enemy for more detailed plans than "this is your objective overall". But lets be fair, proper tactics do not make quite so glorious cinema.

[@linming5610]

They market that this is glorious so this kind of scene is glorious. For me, I find complex maneuvers and tactics more appealing than blobs of men charging and brawling.

[@ariaran4249]

@@linming5610 Thats Just you and I prefer the charge scene its better for film Making moment.

[@noralockley8816]

If the movie was solely about the battle then yes showing how things were described in detail in the book would be greatly loved and enjoyed but that is very hard to do in a movie were you have to tell other stories going on. Jackson portrayed and went with more of that epic charge and grand scale of a cinematic style. To me from an autistic view it was epic, emotional, and visual. I of course would love to see a movie just of the siege alone like described in the book. There is only so much one can do in a movie that had more to tell than just one battle.

[@neodigremo]

@@linming5610 I find them interesting but not in an emotionally striking way. More like watching a clever move in a strategy game. For film however I find simplifying the events allows for more focus on the emotions of the moment and the feel of it. It’s a difference if taste to be sure, but for a visual medium like film where you have minimal time to tell a story like this you don’t have time to show all the tactics. Some semblance of it can be good e.g. a solid shield wall, or sensible armour. But in this case the visual language needed to show the sizes of the armies and convey that this was the moment. And for that I feel the image works better.

[@WMfin]

I love Tolkien and LOTR movies so I absolutely enjoy all sort of deep dives! Also, I love these "true size" analysis. I always scratch my head when in books they say "army 10 000 strong marching/camping" etc, I cannot picture it in my head.

[@lordforages8319]

If you see in the book perspective The rohirim charge is a suprise attack and a tactical genius as the western part of gonder were guarded by thousands of orcs with wood spikes in the road in case rohan came to aid they hide from the forest and the drudein told a secret passage so the horse masters can ride safety to the passage without orcs notice. As they ride safety out to the forest they took the enemies of Mordor by suprise and the enemy eventually don't have time to reform a line.

[@mikelewis7405]

Good film and commentary! However, I think a couple of things were missed. First neither the Orcs or Rohirrim were accustomed to fighting large set-piece battles. Along the borders of Rohan, conflict was more of a raid and reprisal matter similar to the English and Scots Reivers of the 16th century. A lord and his men riding out to recover plunder and livestock and punish the transgressors. As shown in the book and movie the Orcs often came out on the losing side. So, the King calls for the Rohirrim to ride to Gondor. It is stated there are 6,00o spears however, in the middle ages the term "Lance" meant a knight and his men, i.e. a squire, a man at arms (or two) one or two mounted archers a page or servant, perhaps even more. Although I think the number of Rohirrim cavalry was 6,000, if the term "spears" meant a small group the Rohirrim could be several times that number. (Akin to the "300" Spartans each of whom had a squire and a servant or two). Regardless, they are a feudal army "following their lords - barons, counts, earls and dukes. This "army" would be a number such groups formed around the next higher lord. In the middle ages armies commonly formed a vanguard, main body and rearguard. Upon contact, the vanguard would fall back on the flanks of the main body while the rearguard served as the reserve. But - in the heat of battle with the men and horses all worked up control could be lost and the jumbled mass would charge together! That sounds bad - as the video carefully detailed. However, no account was taken of the Orc army. I suspect the best of Sauron's army were attacking the city when the Rohirrim appeared in their rear. The movie shows that the Orc rear-guard may have been the force that earlier took Osgiliath. So they may have been in the rear to rest and reorganize a little. Being from Mordor they likely had little experience fighting cavalry except for defeating the counter-attack of the Gondor heavy cavalry at Osgiliath. This seems to have worked against the orcs who had a degree of false confidence at the start of the Rohirrim charge. The Orcs were a shamble of spears, swords and bows in no particular formation, no doubt with a mob of wounded and skulkers milling about the rear. They did not expect the attack so there were no ditches or palisades or stakes. A perfect target for a mass of veteran, angry horsemen. After a few so-so volleys of arrows the Orcs panicked and fled. Why the Rohirrim paused after routing the Orcs is not clear although they may have been instinctively trying to regroup.

[@bumbaclot813]

Dude, I just watched return of the king yesterday twice. The extended version. Great 4th of July.

[@ScottCyclops]

I at first thought of that it was inefficient too. After tons of Total War, im like oh god they are going to die. But upon closer inspection, it was quite alright tactic. Braced spears didnt matter much as if you looked at Rohan's spears, they were much more longer than the orc's spears. Didnt see any long pikes like they used in Helm's deep. A large mass punching through has a huge psychological effect irl. It brings more chaos to a fight that if the riders were more in order, might give orcs more chance of winning. The big route was the only way the riders would win. Id follow Theodon's strat on that hail mary charge. Except the Mumakil one.

[@ThingsThatIDo]

Well this take on it makes me pretty sad. That was one of my favorite scenes from the trilogy😅

[@TheSmokeGoblin]

facts

[@voice_of_terra7228]

It's still one of the finest pieces of cinema ever.

[@damonhawkes2057]

As some people pointed out, is it tactically sound? No. Does it make sense within the context of the story? Yes. Seeing Minas Tirith had (seemingly) basically fallen already, it was a suicide charge to go out in a blaze of glory (hence chanting "death" in Theoden's speech). Also, full frontal charges into infantry was done, even if not always a good idea. There's a difference between something being a bad strategy and something being unrealistic. Bad strategies happened a lot lol. In the middle ages, frontal charges by formations of knights (armed nobles, not professional soldiers trained together for years) happened more than they probably should have. Agincourt being a great example of this going very badly...

[@damonhawkes2057]

But as I've said in other comments yeah the formation depth is not realistic no matter how you slice it, but oh well it did look pretty sick.

[@okultusrexus3660]

@@damonhawkes2057 Not to me, I saw in theatre the day it came out and the complete lack of tactical realism between this scene, the Black Gate and a couple of others were just unnecessary blemishes in an otherwise excellent adaptation. All he needed was to hire someone that had half a clue, you can do epic battles without going total cringe.

[@nathanirick7806]

This reminded me of the game Battle for Middle Earth (RTS). They overpowered the charge mechanics for horse and warg riders, but even in that game the calvary needed to keep moving and charge again from the back or sides.

[@jlih6271]

Imagine if movie makers would put in just a little bit of work into realism, how much more interesting and dramatic these type of movies could be

[@licmir3663]

@@jlih6271 the problem is that real-life battles lasted for hours, often an entire day, and this is hard to translate into film. It’s better and easier to simply send two armies running like mad men towards one another (even though this would be stupid in done in reality).

[@jlih6271]

@licmir3663 no one is expecting 100% realism. I'm talking about the sub minimal research it would take to get the small details right. You could appease a whole mass of people with nerdy little details

[@Gilgwathir]

In this case it wouldn't even have taken much work. The book already has much better version of the attack.

[@AkodoGarou]

I love this in depth look at the charge. I cant wait for more!

[@stetsonstarkey]

Awesome video. The charge of the Rohirrim is my favorite scene in cinematic history. For me, the absolute peak of what film can deliver. Part of what makes it such a great theatrical moment is the fact that it's not overly orchestrated. It's pure raw emotion and duty and loyalty. So it kind of makes sense that it's a little haphazard. Nevertheless, I love your video and I think learning a lot more about the tactics actually makes me appreciate the scene even more. Fantastic work!

[@TheHilltopPillbox]

Nah, I won't have any nagging concern about the poor tactics. It's meant to be a cinematic masterpiece, not a strategy video on medieval military tactics. I understood the first time I watched it that Jackson couldn't have the time to film the battle as written, but he still did a better job than anyone thought possible.

[@peterhughes1460]

Can you do a follow up about the tactics described by the book? Being that Tolkien was a veteran of war, i wonder what tactics he put into the book.

[@peterhe6699]

I'd say the formation is most akin to medieval knights because the Rohirrim have an Anglican culture so it's supposed to feel very British. The battle I'd say is more akin to elite medieval knights fighting a force of poorly trained troops that lack experience fighting cavalry. Due to the terrain of Ithilin I'd say that Gondor seldom deployed cavalry against Mordor due to the trees making it difficult for cavalry to be deployed and if they ever were it was in relatively low amounts meaning that facing horses was likely a new experience for the orcs. Judging by the fact that most orcs wielded a spear of some sort I'd guess that they aren't particularly well trained because spears are relatively easy to use. I'd say the only advantage that the orcs had would be their mass because the horses as you said would have trouble barreling through the line due to the sheer number of men, but the orc commander also made a mistake with his formation and seemed to have packed his men too tight meaning the back ranks have to swing their spears, polarms, etc down instead of holding it there. Rohan on the other hand was an elite force led by their king using heavy armour. I say elite because Theoden chose these men to sneak around the mordor forces also they are well experienced fighting orcs with not only better weapons and heavier armour perfectly tailored to fighting cavalry i.e. Isenguard. I do agree that Rohan could've done must more damage had they decided to spread their formation out further, but the Rohirrim troops were just far more elite, better trained, more experienced, and more motivated to fight. I also want to bring up the fact that Rohirrim horses are all war horses and even if they weren't they charged downhill meaning they were going too fast to stop and on top of that the spears were short meaning that it would've been difficult to spot the spears until the horses got too close for them to stop.

[@simon2493]

At 15:35 you showed winged hussars formation, it their case it's a bit complex. Pocztowi are akin light kawaler and their role is to keep enemy engaged when the towarzysze are retreating and preparing for next charge.

[@Sam-pie]

I don't have the time to watch the entire thing right now but I hope this takes into consideration that the orks were armed with scrap. You can even see an orc using a fork tied to a stick as a spear if I recall correctly

[@patrickkenyon2326]

True. They had no pikes, and few spears worthy of the name. Virtually nothing to resist a charge.

[@nicpardon1057]

@@patrickkenyon2326 ypu clearly are blind as you can clearly see spears and pikes in the moviea used by the orcs

[@cc0767]

Really cool idea to reconstruct this but damn the screen tearing is driving me mad

[@InvictaHistory]

I'll try and fix the capture next time around

[@silverknight1089]

Don’t forget, a looser formation also makes you much less vulnerable to missile attacks.

[@awesomehpt8938]

It wouldn’t be as epic if they did something like a Parthian shot a feigned retreat or a cantabrian circle. And it wouldn’t be true to the Rohirrims style of warfare. But it might be more tactically viable.

[@chrisc1140]

Problem with those is that while they would be safer and lead to more kills for fewer losses, they wouldn't have achieved the strategic objective of relieving the city. The orc army is simply too large to wear down, and _purely keeping to the movie, not the book_ the city is on the verge of being lost entirely (if not already too far gone) so there's very little _time_ for anything fancy. So the only goal is to break through the lines, route the rest (orcs don't really care about seeing _other_ orcs die, but aren't particularly brave individually) and secure the city. Not to say the mass blob charge itself is the best way to do that of course, but it makes it easy to convey that the Rohirrim are basically a wrecking ball crashing into the side of the army, which breaks and starts to run in the last couple seconds before contact out of panic when they see the Rohirrim _aren't_ breaking off or even slowing down.

[@markalvarado4450]

absolute wonderful video again invicta love these videos been around since your total war videos and love the channel growth

[@Emanon...]

The sad thing is that the "Ride of the Rohirrim" was ultimately unnecessary. Aragorns ghost buddies (in the movie) cleared out the entire battlefield in like 5 minutes, remember?

[@voice_of_terra7228]

Aragorn wanted to secure the throne by gutting the only other human kingdom left standing and whose king also wasn't completely on his side. Note the only member of the fellowship to die was the one who didn't fully support Aragorn's ascension.

[@βιτψηασσνιγγα]

@@voice_of_terra7228 total bull

[@stormy6029]

The ghosts are one of the worst decisions ever put to film.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Only in the Film, in the Book the ride did enough damage to allow Aragorn to arrive with the Southern Gondor units.

[@ed_ELA]

Ghost buddies 😂 best description!

[@sammarsh6516]

In the books the scale of the Battle of Pelennor Fields is a lot larger and the tactics of the Rohirrim make a lot more sense. Obviously that's not based on the imagery of the movies where we have such deep units, but there are maps of it out there that are pretty cool. Also the idea of using elephants to counter cavalry is a very historical one.

[@wicksinn]

It always bugged me that when Aragorn saw the 10,000 Uruk hai marching towards Helms deep that the riders of Rohan did not harass that army using horse archers with hit and run tactics and ambush tactics. Yet they just let a slowly moving Phalanx lumber its way to siege helms deep. A real missed opportunity by Theoden.

[@thomassaxon8254]

The booked do kind of show why with the outer most fortifications.

[@Gilgwathir]

The force Theoden actually had wasn't all that great. It was what ever he could scrounge together in a pinch. Arround a thousand riders from Edoras and about as many as a garison in Helms Deep. The rest of their forces were pretty scattered, because they had been fighting skirmishes all over the place without any real leadership. The first idea was to give open battle, yes. However, the force that was guarding the fords ot the Isen was just obliterated by the on comming out of Isengard. That force was atleast 10'000 strong. Theoden then turned around to retreat to Helms Deep. Every men spent in harassing the Uruks, is one less that would be available to man the fortress. Also, they had a rearguard fighting under Gamling at the outer wall called Helm's Dike. They fought to the last arrow and killed so many Uruks that they filled the trench and the attacker scaled the dike by walking over the corpses of the fallen. You also have to keep in mind that Theoden was in a poor state of mind. He lost his son, his realm was under attack by a vastly superior power and his forces were scattered to the wind. He had given in to despair at this point. It's actually that battle that breaks him out of his funk and makes him to overcome his despair.

[@samuelmellars7855]

​@@Gilgwathirthat is how it is described in the book, but not how it is in the film. In the book, Edoras is nearly emptied. The king and his men ride to support Erkenbrand at the Fords of Isen, and the civvies go to Dunharrow in the hills. Then on the way there, they hear that Erkenbrand was overcome, the river crossing lost, and decide Helms Deep is the best option. Gandalf leaves to see what he can do In the film they leave Edoras, civvies and all, for Helms Deep, closer to the foe, which is stupid. Then they get harried on the way, and Aragorn sees an army of footsoldiers on the way to besiege Helms Deep, goes and warns Theoden. Theoden could have ordered a harrying of that force, although it may or may not have been tactiaclly feasible, we don't have enough info.

[@Xanthippus_i7x]

You cannot believe how long I've been looking for this video...

[@wouter.de.ruiter]

Yeah, you address one of the many things that always bothered me in the movie representation of the attack. Also the lack of shield and helmet use, and no mounted archers.

[@anthonyhopper7830]

Incredible! Thanks for creating this.

[@awesomehpt8938]

Do you want to ride a unicorn or a Pegasus? Yes

[@hummussapien7.6billion68]

Ah yes, this knowledge will help me in my everyday life.

[@CelestiaLz77]

Nonsense, you're treating it like a total war game, there are many factors to consider it, morale, overall situation, etc. Do you think the enemy would let them form rank 2k meter wide flank? They were low on morale until Theoden fired them up on his Death battle cry

[@SarudeDanstorm]

Would love to see your take on the Troy battle scene beneath the city's walls, even Achilles was criticizing it. What should Agamemnon have done instead?

[@X.Y.Z.07]

The Winged Hussars charge in Vienna proves its possible 😂

[@HiopX]

If you had actually watched the movie, where Invicta described all the differences between the rohirim blob and the long line of winged hussars, you wouldn't sound like a total idiot

[@blitcut9712]

@@X.Y.Z.07 The charge during the siege of Vienna would've looked different. He's not criticising the idea of charging a besieging army but rather how its portrayed in the movie.

[@HenryMagog]

Dude we’re talking 18000 men, the ottomans were practically beaten at that point too.

[@ahmedeltayb991]

I understood your video's message and analysis from minute 1, and I agree with you but I can't bring myself to continue watching the whole video.

[@bjacr]

This is a good critique of the movie charge. The Charge of the Rohirrim in the book is much more tactical. It’s not deeply elaborated on, but little mentions of different leaders and their men going different directions and taking on separate areas of the battlefield prove that Prof. Tolkien knew what he was doing. One unit rode to the right along the wall of Minas Tirith. Another rode straight for the orcs attacking the gate. One rode to the far left and encircled. One unit rode through the catapults and slew their operators and drove them into the fire trenches. The king and his men pierced straight through the heart of the orc army until he reached a unit of Southron cavalry who thought they could take him on and died in the attempt. Ultimately the charge did fail in its ultimate goal. It did not completely break the lines of Mordor. There were so many orcs and men in Mordor’s army that the Rohirrim only routed about half of them. They actually dismounted and formed a ring shield wall; preparing for a fight to the death when they saw the Corsair ships coming. But the ships were full of Gondorian soldiers instead of pirates. Thus Aragorn saved the day. So like I said… good critique of the film. You are right about that. But that’s not the real Ride of the Rohirrim. The real one is so much better. Although it still failed.

[@xaina222]

And people said the spaghetti line in total war are unrealistic.

[@MinedMaker]

27:21 All the Roel Konijnendijk fans are pleased.

[@Cheddarcheesemonkey]

I saw an interesting reddit post about the charge and how it was suicidal, but theoretically could have done a lot of damage anyway. To make a long story short, the devastation wrought by a heavy cavalry charge on an unprepared and ill-managed infantry force is solid, and the army of mordor was unorganized and spread out, especially in the book. With so many client forces under lesser commanders all moving and trying to get to the city and kinda doing their own thing, the cavalry *could* crush individual forces and cause mass panic/confusion. Still not tactically sound, and it takes the intervention of The One himself to make it work, but i thought the argument ghe person made was fairly well-reasoned and fascinating

[@marcusviniciusmagalhaesdea3779]

"it's beautifull, but it's no war" a french general said that while watching the charge of the light brigade in Balaclava. It applies here as well.

[@felipefspb]

This is amazing! Way to go guys!

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

Biggest disaster was charging head on into war elephants

[@X.Y.Z.07]

They think they have enough Anti-Large stat 😂

[@TheAbundantDuck]

Don’t know.. sounding the horns undermining the chance of a surprise attack seems like a pretty big own goal to me too.

[@pavelslama5543]

What I´d do is use 3/4 of the army for the massive charge like you proposed - maximized width (maybe even fully encircle the Mordor army, even at the cost of a shallower formation depth), and use the rest for scouting and elimination of supply units. Maybe even sabotage of enemy structures - such as the wooden ramp over the broken bridge in Osgiliath. Because, as the Witch King said, Gothmog sent forth all legions, leaving Osgiliath open to quick sabotage action. This would either prevent the crossing of the bridge by the Mumakil (even though it is more likely that they have forded the river, as the river was likely less than 5 meters deep, and the Mumakil looks like a creature that would ford even 8 meters deep river), or at the very minimum it would discover the mumakil formations up ahead, which would all some form of preparation.

[@josiahstreetman8806]

I like this a lot better actually. It would make them feel so much smarter to be spread out wide and attack in a pair of echelons. The first echelon is the lighter cavalry. They ride up at a gallop, surprisingly close, then at a horn signal, launch a wave of arrows and javelins into the orcs, devastating those first ranks of spears, then wheeling and disappearing through lannes in the oncoming second echelon which is the lancers. Now as the orcs are reeling and disordered, the lancers close ranks and punch through in huge flying V Formations, shattering the orcs unit cohesion entirely while the lighter echelon has turned again, out handaxes and swords to clean up the stragglers.

[@michaelmccabe3079]

Given the wide variety between the full-time horsemen of the army and the part-time militia cavalry types Rohan fields, that would be a very appropriate minimaxing of their options. It also fits with his 2-up/2-back layout, which is flexible and has reserves. Basically a square brigade.

[@alc_parisot]

A video I didn't know that I needed it. Great job !

[@LostEmpireProduction]

Finally, someone says it. I got into an argument with a friend once when I told him this wouldn't work and he was pissed because he's a huge LOTR fan

[@confusedspartan3525]

Look at the comment section, people are twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to justify something done for film spectacle

[@LostEmpireProduction]

@@confusedspartan3525 yeah it’s pretty nuts. Say one critical thing about LOTR and people go feral

[@sowianskizonierz2693]

@@confusedspartan3525 it's crazy people are writing up an entire novel in the comment to say "this hollywood battle depiction was totally historically accurate". lmao.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

It would work because it's a fantasy setting and there is magic involved

[@LostEmpireProduction]

@@TheMinskyTerrorist the magic in LOTR has never impressed me. Never really felt all that consequential

[@adamjd7645]

Love the content. Minor technical note: you're misnaming ranks & files. Ranks are the lines parallel to the frontage, files are those perpendicular to it. (Eg: a Turma is 3 ranks, 10 files.) Later (when discussing formation in battle) you got it right.

[@AugustusHistory]

Let me believe!

[@bigcat5348]

Peter Jackson doesn't understand tactics; this is well known.

[@AkselGAL]

Jackson is Alexander the Great in comparision to the producers of Game of Thrones....

[@loowick4074]

Hollywood producers and directors aren't tacticians they are supposed to make loud explosions and people yelling really cool. Like even if they can pay some nerds to do battlefield research for them. C'mon whose gonna watch a bunch of horses carefully trot towards the enemy before charging and retreating repeatedly Vs A thunderous charge of screaming men and mangling bodies As long as they don't make it so obviously stupid like game of thrones it's fine. Like my gramma walked in when i watched that garbage and even she went, "why are they outside the walls????"

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

It's not about that

[@AkselGAL]

@@loowick4074 I could get along with your sight. Really, I like the cinematics. My trouble is, far to many people have not enough education to seperate fiction from reality.

[@NikNakNaj]

You missed a huge benefit to the blob. More people can hear Théoden's badass speech for +100% to all stats.

[@Gilgwathir]

Theoden was actually a bard, confirmed! Bardic Inspiration for 6000 horse boys, let's goooo!

[@choysakanto6792]

All the Rohirrim did was to distract Sauron's army so that the final relief force led by Aragorn and his friends can drive for the kill

[@aw-daf]

Where was Invicta when the Westfold fell…

[@BurnellSnortProductions]

Bro really slandering Theoden. I can't go for that chief.

[@Quecojo]

I agree about the folly of the formation in depth for cavalry. That said, the horses of Rohan are supposed to be a superior, hardier breed than real life horses, hence why they could get away with the blob charge. Just my thoughts. Good breakdown. Really sinks in just how small of a force Theoden had. Balls of steel!