Why the SCAR in 5.56 (MK16) was not adopted by U.S. Special Forces to replace the M4A1.

[@dilldowschwagginz2674]

This reminds me of how good the ACR could have been and how badly Remington screwed up

[@virginiasaintj]

Is there a video or article where I can learn what happened?

[@Sun-Warrior1911]

I hope he gets his hands on an ACR, preferably a Windham made rifle, and give his thoughts. The ACR could still be something today IMO!!

[@grannypanties4214]

The ACR was rejected out of hand for not including blank firing adapters

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

@@grannypanties4214 the dumbest of dumb reasons, but Remington brought it upon themselves so there's no one else to blame

[@SpicyCactus]

ACR was doomed to fail regardless, it's only popular because of COD.

[@AlexanderMachiavelli]

Awsome insight man. The Legion here, in SOF units are using the SCAR-L and from what I hear, they do not like it much. You can FEEL the cheapness is some of what I've heard (I never seen one in combat or training here). Now the scar clones, the Bren and Grot, are pretty good. I used a Grot, made by FB for a few months, and although the barrel length was too long for my taste, it was a good rifle.

[@Karen-is-life]

Great post. I helped in a small way with the US Marines to determine if this rifle could feasibly replace our current M-4s. We ran it through the Marine Raider pipeline training, alongside the usual M-4s. The curriculum at the time was standard infantry drills and dismounted foot patrolling through thick coastal swamps and thickets. The cadre did our own separate evaluation. And the students provided feedback as well. At the end of the evaluation, we wrote up our findings and submitted to “Higher”. Surprisingly, they took our advice to not replace the M-4 with the SCAR. It simply wasn’t logical to replace our current setup with a SCAR. We did tell “higher” that we would gladly accept the 7.62 version if that was a possibility. Sadly, it wasn’t a choice.

[@mitchjames9350]

So what was the main issue?

[@Karen-is-life]

@@mitchjames9350 the main issue was one of cost vs benefit. With what we had left in the inventory it simply didn’t make fiscal sense to swap out all the 5.56 M-4s for another 5.56 platform that wasn’t really offering any real or tangible result from doing so. It was simple as that. Now, if we had swapped the 7.62 version, lots of guys were onboard with that. But we were told that wasn’t an option. So we did a very balanced review and it came up short (or more accurately, it didn’t come up with enough benefit for doing a swap).

[@mitchjames9350]

@@Karen-is-life it seems the top brass didn’t want to go back to 7.62 again after ditching it for the 5.45. I reckon they should go back to experimenting with the British 280 round that was being pushed by the European nations in the 50’s. Apparently that was showing very good results until an American colonel used his position to force the 7.62 X 51. After all the Russians in the future may go back to the 7.62x39 and the chimes are using a round bigger than the 5.45 but smaller than the 7.62 rounds so I think it’s best we look at a new round that has high power but with as less recoil etc.

[@themischeifguide]

I figure it's one of those things, where the M16 series is so developed that anything would have a tough time competing. The flaws the M16/M4 are at least well known with something else it's a new learning curve. The only issues I ever saw was bad magazines and worn-out weapons.

[@thelion70x79]

@@mitchjames9350 take a look at 6.8 SPC developed by the AMU (Holland, Murray): ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2017/armament/Zhou19394.pdf nebula.wsimg.com/fb54bbe7bcde47ffde93ea48ce9b9f13?AccessKeyId=D0DCC35FC05D0FC60556&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2015/smallarms/17354_Schatz.pdf It's become very popular with hunters looking to use the M4, but need something that performs better terminally than 5.56. www.68forums.com/ I have adopted the MURG concept and use my 5.56 upper for training while my 6.8 is dedicated to duty (primarily home defense).

[@RT81775]

Just want to say your channel is a hidden gem. A great mix of useful drills, good information, and special forces history.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank you

[@MobileAura]

@@ModernTacticalShooting The only issue I had with this video is that you didn’t mention quadruple feeds or quintuple feeds, and go into detail on how to clear them. Other than that another great video, subbed!

[@johngriffiths118]

@@MobileAura pig sticker and a lot of swearing

[@MatthewSmith-du5dy]

That's the problem. It is hidden. Please let's help this channel grow. It really is top notch!

[@novaromer]

Very informative . Thank you for a very good video.

[@Mrgunsngear]

Thanks. I used it in service as well

[@camsnyder2636]

Seriously tho I've only heard you say that you were an armorer is there something you aren't telling us ?

[@kniter01]

I'd like to point out that it's extremely interesting that the rifle sounds like a lot of its issues come from the fact it was optimised for 7.62. The reason this is interesting is because the rifle started as a 5.56 rifle

[@voler_1925]

Hello

[@charleslennon1]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

[@DamoclesCommando]

@@voler_1925 Hello

[@iBeo01]

honestly the reciprocating charging handle design is pretty stupid, basically taking two steps back. If you look at the CMMG Mutant which is an AR chambered in 7.62x39 it uses the AK Mag design on an AR platform and they basically created the perfect marriage between an AK and AR and it is noted that the mutant is insanely reliable.

[@voler_1925]

@@iBeo01 reliable in what? tarkov? its functionally the same as an ar15/10 platform.

[@rustknuckleirongut8107]

Always thought the SCAR was too bulky for what it is. Feel like you could shave away 25% of the volume and lose nothing.

[@LK-bz9sk]

That butt stock looks weird. Is there a reason for it’s shape?

[@NPC_GENERIC_ENEMY_INFANTRY]

@@LK-bz9sk It's collapsible, it folds for stowing, and the cheek rest (I think) is adjustable. In short, it makes sense

[@fettmaneiii4439]

yeah Rust, in 5.56 its too bulky because its a 308 gun. lol.

[@dilldowschwagginz2674]

Weight is one of the reasons it never replaced the M4

[@tgworks5791]

I mean at the time it was lighter than the guns being used and even lighter than the hk416.

[@ChristopherWalkenActor]

Thanks for the info. I'm just a normal civilian, but I always wondered what happened to the Scar 5.56. When it was released it sounded like the best thing since sliced bread , then it fell off the face of the earth.

[@mascasa7502]

Thanks for the insightful video. Always wondered why the SCAR-L wasn't adopted. I wish FN was quicker to respond to improvement suggestions and the rifle didn't cost so much.

[@tunasandwich8049]

The issue of over engineering Like in medieval times, just cause a broadsword has great sharpness and aerodynamics, I'm sure the basic foot soldier would prefer the simple spear or a club

[@maddantt7757]

THE most informed and informative firearm-related content on KZbin

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank you ...too kind

[@calebsone1630]

This was something I always wondered. I knew about the issues with the 16 but I didn't know they were the same issues that caused the military to not adopt the scar L. Very cool video.

[@thedumbguncollector5546]

It sounds like the issues with the charging handle, stock and weird op rod jam have all been addressed. I know the rifle was amazingly reliable in the US dust tests and the British L85 tests where it beat all comers. Like you said, it looks like an amazing engineering exercise that lacked enough real-world input.

[@CalvinL.Stevens]

The XM8 fared even better in the dust testing, but the Americans are too proud choosing a European rifle over their M4s.

[@thedumbguncollector5546]

@@CalvinL.Stevens Definitely would have been nice to see what that developed into

[@weasle2904]

@@CalvinL.Stevens Dust resistance not the only important thing about a gun, and by the way the M4A1 is already extremely resistant to dust itself. Especially when run dry or dry lube the AR-15 seems to shrug off dust easily. G36 (which the same as the XM8) and the SCAR are based off the AR-18 as well, lets not forget. Also how would you justify the XM8/G36 to replace the M4? Why would the US Military, whom is happy with the excellent reliability of the AR-15 system, want to adopt a heavier, less accurate, and harsher recoiling weapon made out of heat vulnerable polymer? (300 rounds is an extremely low amount of rounds before a weapon achieves a failure, AR-15's and AK's can last many multiples more than that).

[@LIGHTNING278TH]

@@CalvinL.Stevens That doesn't make much sense considering the US was using an Italian pistol, German gun in the Abrams, Swedish Anti-tank launchers and other imported weapons at the time.

[@joshuab7737]

Still has a terrible placement for the charging handle in relation to optics and mounts.

[@jonathanteeter9572]

Thanks for the insight; I just remember our TL dropping his magazine out of a SCAR 17 multiple times while on patrol in AFG. Imagine returning fire and finding your mag was absent DOL

[@Argentum7756]

Super interesting story Jeff! Thanks for clarifying and cutting out the internet myths about the SCAR

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

That was my goal!!

[@MxHltn1997]

Youve quickly become one of my favorite YT channels. Great Information well presented without any bullshit. Greetings from a german infantryman.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank you very much..I'm trying!

[@GeorgeCowsert]

As someone studying firearms design, I really feel like the specific piston configuration is what killed the SCAR from the start. Havinf the BCG extend to meet the piston is a good system for an LMG; it means that you don't need to worry about how well aligned the piston system is when changing barrels, and makes sure you aren't recycling overheated pistons. On a rifle? No. Keep in mind, the Dragunov is in 7.62x54R and uses the same style short-stroke piston as the AR-18 and FAL and works perfectly fine. Heck, the FAL is in 308! I understand that SOCOM wanted a design that could handle their specific needs. An LMG piston setup would be ideal for when you need to frequently fill the role of Autorifleman. That doesn't mean it is the most efficient.

[@johnbu9098]

The opposite example would be HK416 designed by HK and Delta Force member Larry Vickers. The 416 is probably the most successful M4 variant used by the Marine and Delta. Larry also designed the 2 point adjustable sling which I person really really enjoyed.

[@theAKmooseburger]

Quick adjustable sling. I have the padded one on my SCAR16s. It’s amazing.

[@L11ghtman]

The M27 was a really stupid choice for the Marines. The 416 rocks but Delta has been using and modding them for nearly 20 years now. The M27 wasn’t worth the cost vs. the Army’s equally successful M4A1 upgrade.

[@GBGuns]

Thank you for such a thorough report.

[@skookapalooza2016]

Thanks for sharing this info. This is my first time hearing a conclusive set of facts as to why it wasn't adopted. Until now, I thought that cost was the problem. When you have a rifle that works fine for everything and try to replace it with something that costs twice as much...it had better have no major issues. Too bad that wasn't the case. I'm glad FN finally addressed them all, for the most part. I'm a lefty shooter too so I would either have to round that button on the stock or just go with an ACR stock.

[@alantoon5708]

Basically, the SCAR did not offer enough of a operational advantage to justify a change.

[@gar50172]

I’d be surprised if they can top their M4 variants. Just need to convert the m4 to 7.62

[@HugeCockAndBalls]

@@gar50172 AR10 xd

[@Heywoodthepeckerwood]

So, I take it you didn’t watch this video?

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

Too many people crap on the AR charging handle, but its really well done. Its perfectly out of the way 99% of the time, which is where a charging handle should be.

[@thefirespectrum]

That charging handle... It's really hard to write requirements without unintended consequences. That's why I really believe in specifying performance and capabilities, not specific mechanical solutions or implementations. Set the bar high and let the vendors figure out how to meet the Performance standards.

[@dilldowschwagginz2674]

This is exactly how the forward assist ended up being added to Stoner's design before formal adoption. They obviously love the idea of having soldiers force the bolt into battery and the easiest way to do that with a side charger is to fix the charging handle to the bolt carrier. Probably not a good idea to force a cartridge into the chamber but...

[@christopherascherl2411]

I just had a situation where this wasn't a good idea. We had a piece of equipment that consisted of some OTS equipment and simple steel weldments to hold it together. The first engineer designed one for a pilot plant and I made some improvements for a small scale plant. When it came time to install two in a full scale production plant that process engineer wanted a vendor to provide a complete solution and provided specs like you said. The lowest bid they got back was over 10X what it cost to buy the parts and have contractors build/install our system. I also know several times engineers tried to design something themselves and it went pretty bad so I don't either option is foolproof.

[@thefirespectrum]

@@christopherascherl2411 Yep, it's situational. But I think the situation you describe is the problem of commissioning or home-building something that is already in production. Presumably, they liked the AK bolt handle, but wanted other things the AK doesn't provide. What you have to do is articulate precisely *why* you like the AK bolt handle and put the requirement in terms of the capability it gives you. Yes, the AK bolt handle reciprocates. That describes what it does, but reciprocation isn't a value in and of itself - the capability to directly apply force to the bolt carrier is what makes it possible to stomp on an AK bolt handle like you're kick-starting an old Harley. And the desire to be able to do that is really about how the user should be able to interface with the system to clear certain types of malfunctions in the field. So some better ways to get to that would be to specify how many of each type of malfunction the system can have per a certain number of cycles, under certain conditions. Then, specify what types of malfunction must be remediable in the field, with no tools, in under a certain amount of time and/or conditions. Yes, that's more open to interpretation, but that's what the trials are for.

[@christopherascherl2411]

​@@thefirespectrum To clarify, as far as I know this equipment isn't manufactured by anyone else as a complete package. It isn't that complicated to build so I wouldn't be surprised if others came up with the same solution in similar industries but I don't know a vendor you can buy it from. In this particular case, I don't think the other engineer wanted to take the responsibility to make it work on himself. I think he was hoping he would get a bid back that would relieve him of that responsibility for a reasonable price. I don't know if the vendors prices where so high because they had more complicated solutions in mind, were looking to make some easy money or something else. We have had good solutions from vendors that solved a problem we didn't have a good answer for. It can be good if the solution could be very open ended as long as you don't let it become a crutch.

[@iBeo01]

honestly the reciprocating charging handle design is pretty stupid, basically taking two steps back. If you look at the CMMG Mutant which is an AR chambered in 7.62x39 it uses the AK Mag design on an AR platform and they basically created the perfect marriage between an AK and AR and it is noted that the mutant is insanely reliable.

[@TheIamfrustrated]

Thanks for sharing this. This really reminds me of Chieftain talking about Sherman development in which the 76mm Sherman’s would work but were an absolute ergonomic nightmare and thus initially rejected on those grounds.

[@SaftonYT]

These and the occasional Mk 17 were quite the vanity pieces when my buddy was with 1/75. There weren't a ton to go around by the time he got in, so you mostly saw the tabbed NCOs with a bit of seniority running around with them (the rare ones who preferred them to their Block II M4A1s, anyway).

[@Drrrre]

Thx for explaining why these reliability issues don’t apply to the 17. That was my biggest curiosity.

[@ms.annthrope415]

The 17 is issued to SF and Ranger units.

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

Yeah with the big brother you only have to settle for shaking your optic to death...

[@daffern1]

Thanks for a great video! I have both SCAR 16/17 and changed to angled charging handles on the right hand side...so I run them sort of like an AK. They're reliable, accurate and have worked well for me but I'm not, nor will I ever be, an "operator." Subjectively, AR's just seem to "feel" better in the hand and loaded up with an Elcan 1.5x6, a MAWL, a light, and a full mag neither SCAR is what I'd call light. I just subscribed so, looking forward to more of your videos. Cheers

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank you! glad you liked it

[@tunatechnologies1351]

Jeff, this was an awesome watch. Thanks for the knowledge bomb.

[@ColdHawk]

Nice to hear from you on this. I like the distinction you are making between bolt handle versus charging handle. “Charging handle” is a term I use indiscriminately, without really thinking about it.

[@williamflowers9435]

Thank you for this video!!! It’s great to hear the real story with this rifle or the G19’s adoption as opposed to the myths that have prevailed online. I hope there’s more to come!!

[@vernonasian]

Great new information for scar 16s, thank you for your time and service sir!

[@brentsauer]

I am absolutely dumbfounded that someone required a reciprocating charging handle. That doesn't even pass the common sense test. Great video Jeff!

[@kxkxkxkx]

This some of the best content on the internet! Thanks big MSG!!

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thanks..I was a MSG!

[@ShizawnSanders]

I have shot a Scar. It had 2 malfunctions in about 120 rounds. It was obviously heavier than my AR's too and the recoil felt like it was more. Couldn't believe the price after that.

[@madstan8948]

People can’t accept the fact that ARs don’t need anymore upgrades they are amazing the way they are

[@1911acolt1]

@@madstan8948 The Ar15 was so ahead of it’s time that it’s still modern today..With very little being done(if anything)to it’s basic mechanism..It was so ahead of it’s time the soviets redesigned the AK…Which was a true redesign.New bolt size,new gas port,New round…etcThe full size m16 and the m4 are legends..Even the “updated hk416 -(Ar15 layout ar18 gas system)Looks dated compared to recent ar15s.You can take a bolt carrier group out of a late 60s ar15 and it will run in one made this year…That’s a lasting design.

[@efoxneo]

Awesome video, I have always been a fan of the SCAR platform and only had one opportunity to shoot an actual military one in 2009 when I was in Ft Bragg. I also visited shooters supply when I was in the area, first time I got to handle an ACR.

[@Svytorius]

Regarding the casings getting stuck in the op rod channel: bad magazines happen, but more importantly, stuff happens. Even with brand new magazines you can get a freak accident. Interesting to hear the SCARs had this issue.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Yes you are a 100% correct.

[@tgworks5791]

You don’t hear about this issue because it was rectified right after the trial before it was later used in the field.

[@jpenna1976]

Yes, stuff happens. I have seen AR-15 with round jammed on top of bolt carrier. It was long time ago and can't remember exactly how it was positioned there. It was difficult malfunction to clear though. On AK, 7.62x39 empty casing stuck backwards between top cover and bolt carrier. Both cases hard to imagine how it could happen. These were on carbine courses and not my rifles.

[@ParanoidWarpig1]

@jpenna1976 bolt override isn't hard to fix. It's a matter of realizing what is happening and knowing what to do. It can be cleared without having to disassemble the rifle. The scar on the other hand as stated in the video has to be taken down to clear the cases if they get in the op rod channel. Obviously both issues suck but I'd much rather deal with bolt override on an ar platform.

[@jpenna1976]

@@ParanoidWarpig1 I didn't even know that malfunction had a name, since it is pretty rare. Personally it has never happened to me. I will look into this subject to find what actually happens and how to cure it.

[@scramjet7466]

i was expecting you to beat around the bush and just say it was expensive in the end. but i actually learned a lot! great video.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Many comments center around funding saying it was too expensive but that is wrong, it was a fully funded program.

[@scramjet7466]

@@ModernTacticalShooting i meant the unit cost of the rifle being more expensive, had it entered service. today is it expensive (7.62 version. Im just assuming the 5.56 version would also be pricy compared to m4) because of limited production or just the nature of the gun?

[@famalam943]

Just discovered your channel, and I have to say it’s one of the best out there. Just like paul harrell, there’s no bs, just matter of fact information. 👍

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank you im trying!

[@JDogth3Wise]

Great video, glad I found your channel! No nonsense, and the personal experience adds so much

[@dilldowschwagginz2674]

I've always assumed the military specified a reciprocating charging handle because it could be used to slam the bolt into battery if the need arises (sort of like the forward assist on the M4). It's probably not a great idea to smash a cartridge into the chamber but... That's one of the only potential advantages I can think of as to why anyone would prefer a reciprocating charging handle.

[@josephmontanaro2350]

It might be that it would be easier to notice if there's a malfunction being able to see the location of the bolt if it's stuck

[@scotttyoshimura]

Great videos. One of the underrated and under-viewed channels. Appreciate the content.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank You

[@briant7652]

Some folks at FN must have been pissed when this was rejected. With everything they put into it, I'm surprised it wasn't an improvement over the M4. Makes me appreciate my old service carbine more and my AR. Cool video, I always wondered what happened with this rifle.

[@PistoleroSoluciones]

You’re channel is top notch. Very informative, very professional.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank you!

[@stevewilson4514]

I’m sure the piston driven system and its advantages were appealing. But when you add up all the issues they canceled out the advantages. One thing I noticed was that the SCAR was bulkier than the M4. And it didn’t have as good a ergo’s as the M4. Glad to hear this story first hand from someone who had been there and done that.

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

One thing we have learned over the last two decades is that the semi-Di/internal piston system of the AR platform not only isn't broken, but is actually superior, overall, to almost every piston system when paired with quality manufacturing and proper training.

[@lexedmonds9075]

22:54 Yoooo! Nice VCOG. Severely underrated piece of glass imo.

[@VictoryOrValhalla14]

The XCR has none of these issues and I wonder how the testing would have gone if they got the chance.

[@alexferrara9287]

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏. Ain't that a bitch? All because FN was backed by SOCOM and Robinson Armament forgot to bring blank firing adapters lol. There's a lot of people out there that hate on the XCR platform and never held/owned one. Yes, the first gens had a few kinks but, isn't that the case with EVERY firearm/manufacturer?! The SCAR itself had its fair share of lemons. Honestly, I don't understand why Robinson Armament isn't HUGE in the States. The only "cons" I can think of are 1. No ambi charging handle (doesn't reciprocate though). 2. Robinson Armament is a small company and the customer service has mixed reviews. 3. Some people prefer a barrel that pin and welded. All that said, a lot of the negative reviews on the XCR platform back in the day were bullshit. When I say bullshit, I mean that the negative reviews came from people that didn't understand how to use a FULLY adjustable gas system and never torqued the barrel down to spec. A ton of user error. The SCAR 16 is a good rifle but, overrated imho. The SCAR 17 is the more impressive model. However, I'll take an XCR, BREN 2S/2MS, B&T APC-223/308, or ACR over the SCAR's ANYDAY of the week.

[@VictoryOrValhalla14]

@@alexferrara9287 the XCR I have had some issues early on and my experience with customer service was horrendous until I drive down to their shop(live an hour away from them). I have a 7.5 suppressed XCR and it had some issues right off the bat, stuck casings, extractor being blown out of the bolt and trigger pins walking out. After taking it to them personally, meeting everyone there and getting to know them and them knowing my background and style they did everything possible to include a new barrel and op rod. Everything was fixed and the gun made it through 1500 round 2 day course without a single hiccup. What I found odd in my dealings with them is they don’t have any warfighters on their team, they were kinda shocked at some of the things I was telling them how guns are used and abused by soldiers. I went into their shop hating them for the shady stuff that happened but now don’t and I love everything about the XCR. I will say they desperately need someone with experience, I suggested a few changes and hopefully they follow through.

[@CalvinL.Stevens]

The Americans will always find an excuse to continue using their M4s. XCR, an AR15 styled long stroke piston design, ticks all boxes, don't know what they were thinking. XM8 just as fine, but too German for their pride.

[@VictoryOrValhalla14]

@@CalvinL.Stevens why would we switch from the M16 series It’s never been defeated on the field of battle. The American military hasn’t lost a battle since the Korean War. Before you run your mouth you best Re read what I wrote. The soldier with his M16/M4 is undefeated, the politicians make policy.

[@azmaddog6]

@@CalvinL.Stevens I am so confident in the XCR-L system, I own four of the rifles in 3 different calibers. I have had no issues with any of them. I am now thinking about a .308 model.

[@YO-ur5yl]

Super informative. I’m interested in how the competitor, Robinson XCR, was like. It looks better design having lower handle, cost, and some features.

[@ubcroel4022]

Honestly, I don't see any new 5.56 outdoing the AR series.

[@jvtaylor3]

Well 5.56 won't be around much longer in the US armed forces.

[@DJJAW11]

XCR .

[@Front-Toward-Enemy]

@@jvtaylor3 yes it will.

[@AnarchAngel1]

@@jvtaylor3 It will be around for a long time if you ask me

[@kxkxkxkx]

Specially not with the Super Duty versions coming out 👍

[@PsycJoe02]

Enjoying all these behind the scenes weapons vids

[@brianoswald1067]

We had a similar experience w/ the XM8s in Yuma. They asked a few of the MFF instructors their impressions. Seemed like they put bad ideas into the G-36. There were good features about them but they fell short on many simple fixes.

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

Did the melting handguards raise some eyebrows at all?

[@alekszanuzdaev8115]

First of all, why are you talking nonsense, with testing in Yuma, the XM8 did well, as did the G36 and nothing melted there Jim Schatz has an article in Small Arms /

[@davysimanjaya8324]

Shooter Supply is good people. Hands down best service, knowledge, and armorer's work. Thanks for the SCAR histories

[@micfasto8700]

The M16 is the most refined weapon system in it's 50 plus year life span. What the got right at the start was the ergonomics of the operating controls and being a light handy rifle. Then it has evolved into what was required of it along the way. The reciprocating charging handle is a major fail on the Scar 16 and 17 that and cost.

[@Maniac742]

The M16 was far from perfect when it was delivered to the army in Vietnam. It had mad issues, some stemming from the ammunition, some from the rifle itself. But all of those issues were addressed because the army was already committed at that point. They couldn't just throw it out. The contract had already been signed and the money changed hands. So, the army went to Colt and Colt made improvements on the weapon, and today it's very reliable. That could have easily happened with the SCAR, but since the military suddenly decided that everything had to be perfect out of the gate, suddenly all small arms procuring and development came to a screeching halt. Nevermind they afforded the M16 the courtesy of not being perfect from the get go. Nope nope nope, now everything has to be 100% perfect in every way from the start, EVEN IF OUR OWN REQUIREMENTS ARE THEMSELVES FLAWED, and then if you meet all that we're gonna cancel the program anyways.

[@micfasto8700]

@@Maniac742 100% correct. Now a days it is more important write the scope of work or contract requirements which every bidder will try dissect for there gain and then sue when they lose, Then it is to get the right equipment in the hands of the right people.

[@dasitmaneayylmao2729]

@@Maniac742 watch the entire stoners series if you havent. Us gov went full retard and changed many things of the original design because of “morale” and saving pennies. Cost them so much to fix it negated the “savings” thats not including the loss of life which cant be replaced.

[@nelsonr1467]

@@Maniac742 those problems where caused by the military not the design of the M16

[@TheREALLibertyOrDeath]

@@Maniac742 I’d argue the original m16 platform is better than the current m4 mk18. Its lighter. Much better range and terminal ballistics with 20” barrel. Great reliable sight system. An 20” a2 with 1:8 barrel twist and you would be good to fight in any part of the world

[@alphakilo9066]

Thanks Jeff. Always good information.

[@-Cold-World]

SCAR issues have been ironed out quickly after launch. Look how long it took of the AR platform to evolve to were it is.The FN SCAR is king.

[@arias266]

Yep

[@Ekdrink]

The AR walked so the SCAR could run.

[@jonathancathey2334]

The information is useful. Never understood why SOCOM adopted the SCAR 17 and not the SCAR 16.

[@brandon4383.]

Id be interested to hear you talk about the SCAR 17

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Perhaps in the future. I never ran one in combat myself but I know plenty who have. I need to invite a SF guy to get his 1st hand experience

[@matty6247]

After watching for just a couple minutes....easily clicked on the subscribe button! Thank you for your service, and sharing your incredible wealth of knowledge.

[@charlesg5085]

Good work clicking that button. We need more proud gay men like this guy on youtube. He takes balls to the mouth for sure! Great videos.

[@Dan-di9jd]

The reciprocating charging handle got me as well but I'm just a civilian shooter but never understood why it is so far forward. It felt awkward but when they released the non-reciprocating version, I bought it. And yeah I got an EOTech and for fun decided to do an ak style reload at the range and yeah, got a blood knuckle. Otherwise it's a darn good looking rifle to me.

[@arias266]

The one I got came with a stock Non-Recipricating Charging Handle

[@ephrammaker3153]

Excellent! Expertise at the highest level here! Thank you!

[@Snapper314]

Great video on this topic! And for all the Hate the AR Charging Handle gets, it's placement and function avoids all of the issues the Scar-16 has.

[@TheBrandonDawson]

Just found your channel randomly, glad I did. New subscriber for sure.

[@WellDressedCaveman]

They look so weird and clunky, but man, when you shoulder them, they fit like a glove. At least for me.

[@edward_the_bruce]

They are not my favorite but they look cool and as we know, rule number 1 of being tactical is looking cool. lol

[@Redbusser40]

Being a owner of fn scar 16s almost 4 years never had a single jam can’t say that about my high end ar’s although I like the ar more. Only thing I don’t like about the scar is the heavy trigger pretty bad!

[@beelbrother1648]

I was skeptical of the aftermarket triggers, but I found a used 16 with a Geisselle installed. It's a nice trigger, but its not $350 nice. It feels similar to my Larue triggers that were $100.

[@Sauceyjames]

Great insight! Thank you for your service and the upload!

[@andrewdriver3318]

I tried one in Afghanistan. It was heavy, and the reciprocating charging handle took a few thumbnails off due to the thumbs up mag well grip that was the fad at the time. We also had a connex of the mythical M14s the internet will have you believe were super long range and super accurate. Maybe on camp perry with a team of armorers but the practical accuracy we experienced was much less than our M4s and our M4s were more than adequate for the distances required. Funny the internet also will have you believe the Afghans were running around with muzzle loading jazzails and bolt action enfields

[@DeathBlossom867]

I suspect the Afghan rifle stories come from the fact that we would recover antique rifles from "weapons caches" and "Taliban" that were just privately owned family protection weapons.

[@kbzworld]

I recently look at that same gun on the wall like 2 weeks ago in shooters supply. Thats my favorite store

[@Richard-wz9uh]

This is golden. I remember when the SCAR came out all of the marketing made it sound like the best combat carbine that had been invented. I also remember thinking that the US military was stupid for not adopting it. Thanks for shedding light on why.

[@theimmortal4718]

I might be totally wrong, but it seems that the FN Individual Weapon System chambered in 6.5x43mm is the evolution of this rifle, and shows a lot of promise. Takes the best of the Scar-L, along with what was learned by the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC and joined them all into one weapon.

[@Motoboo_Marine]

Just goes to show you need input from both operators AND armorers/engineers to really make something successful. Also, it doesn't hurt to have engineers/designers also know how to shoot to a high degree as well. I also feel like the SF/SOCOM world is really the only part of the military where weapons are tested, adopted, and used the way they should, save for the M45A1 fiasco with the Marines, but even that was able to be dropped in favor of Glocks after a few years.

[@MrVyrtuoso]

Wow. You burst the bubble of my interest in SCARs. I'll stick w/the AR platform. Thx

[@LTSRIDE24]

Great rifle and I absolutely LOVE my Scar 17 from a civilian standpoint, but this is NOT a weapon I would have preferred to use while serving though. Why.... Simply & ONLY because of the reciprocating CH.....the expression, too many moving parts is exactly why....certain firing positions, this would be an issue. Other than that, this is a great rifle & I believe it has been since upgraded to include a non-reciprocating CH in newer models.

[@aaron.from.winchester6744]

Outstanding. What an excellent presentation and assessment. Although, I love my MK 17.

[@seanwhite304]

I guess only NSW got to test Colt SCAR Type A , B and C during the initial SCAR PROGRAM in 2005ish. Colt SCAR Type A , B and C were MONOLITHIC Uppers . Type A (LE6944) , Type B (LE6944 with Whole entire gun in NIB Coating then painted ) , and TYpe C (Model 1020 External Piston with same NIB Coating ) . The NIB coating was done by company we know now as Fail Zero . NSW did not have a clear winner but ultimately went with MK16 . From the initial SCAR PROGRAM is you had to have working 556n and had to have 7.62N SCAR drawings . Colt had the LE901 in drawings and FNMI had MK17 . I figured the SCAR program was a flop because lady at Crane came up with drawings for M4A1 / SOCOM Profile Barrel . Now I know why it was a flop so thanks .. If you care to know about full details of the SCAR Program from NSW it's in BR2 Book by Chris Bartocci . I did know US ARMY Boycotted Pmags in early 2010 time period . IMO LMT MRP would of been an awesome SCAR PROGRAM Winner . People dont realize MRP has been out since 2003ish.. Very interesting bro I love small arms history and real world info .

[@deejay1534]

Honestly if the US wanted a monolithic piston gun so badly for SOCOM the LMT MRP, XCR, and Colt SCAR would've been better. Even the ACR had it been made by a much better company than bankrupt Remington had a lot of potential without the flaws of the FN SCAR

[@seanwhite304]

@@deejay1534 Yes the original Magpul Massada was superior IMO to the FNMI SCAR . Ole Bushmaster definitely fucked that whole deal up no doubt about it because it had so much potential. To my knowledge there was no actual requirement for the NSW SCAR program but they definitely wanted/ leaning more towards external Piston. The SCAR program came about because NSW wanted their Carbine because they were having issues with M4 . They were using the M4 in ways they were not designed for . During break contact drills they would Go full auto with M4 profile barrel . The M4 profile was never designed to handle that stress . The tactics they were using were good but they chose the wrong gun to do it with . They were heating up the M4 barrels to the transformation temperature which would cause they barrel to burst . Also at the same time Colt was having QC issues with Bolts breaking . Big army was not not having any of these issues at all . Hence the SCAR Program . Colt engineers came up with MONOLITHICs just for the SCAR program . Ultimately SCAR program was a flop because of the SOCOM Profile Barrel or that's what I've read about . Also from this video said as well on why it was never really adopted as primary platform.. The reason why the MONOLITHICs were never released on commercial market until 5 or 6 years later was because of patent infringement. LMT sued Colt and Diemaco / Colt Canada for their MONOLITHIC design and won . Colt has to pay LMT a royalty on all MONOLITHICs sold until the year 2029 when the patent expires .. Off topic for a second . Colt never thought in million years the M4 Family was going to be primary platform for GWOT . Sure they figured specialized units would use them but never thought Big Army would ever adopt . The LE694X series , Diemaci IUR / C.C. MRR are the best Carbines and Rifles that they ever made . They are definitely the pinnacle of Colt engineers at the that period of time . Colt still has never released their M5 ENHANCED with all Ambi Controls . They developed that fir the Product Improvement Program . The M5 was Internal or External Piston piston with longer MONOLITHIC Rail and Lower had Ambi Safety , Mag and Bolt Release . For sure no questions asked LMT MRP / MWS is the best MONOLITHIC platform period . Yes the Colt SCAR Type B or C should of won but ultimately they wanted entirely new platform. Just like Colt IAR should of beat M27 IAR . The Colt IAR was better in every way shape and form . It had built in HEAT Sync to dissipate heat . Also the LE901 should of won as well but Colt was to late to the party . Ultimately Colt got stagnant because of their SOUL SOURCE Contract . Colt has not done anything innovative since 2004 SCAR PROGRAM. Another part that came out of the SCAR PROGRAM was LMT ENHANCED BCG/BOLT. It blew Milspec BCG/BOLT out if the water . It was never adopted because it would operate smoothly in Rifle Length Gas system because it was designed for 14.5 Car Length .. LMT and Crane were also the Godfathers of the MK18 barrel. Colt had absolutely nothing to do with MK18 or SOCOM Barrel but they had that SOUL SOURCE which made LMT and Crane give up those TDP / Drawings for those concepts . Until Colt actually started producing MK18 MOD 0 CQBRs what Crane did is use M16A1 Lowers and Cut down 14.5 barrels to 10 3 and opensd up gas ports to 0.70 .

[@deejay1534]

@@seanwhite304 also with the M4, in the early 2000s the carbine gas system wasn't fully optimized with length, buffer, and port size, so those sub-14.5" M4s had serious reliability issues and wore through parts like crazy, making piston guns much more attractive for short barreled rifles that were reliable in all conditions. Even today short piston guns like the MCX, 416, and Colt LE901 are superior to short barreled DI guns in terms of reliability but AR technology has progressed to the point that the added reliability isn't necessary.

[@seanwhite304]

@@deejay1534LE901 is DI 7.62N. The only Colt Piston would be model 1020 Scar type C and LE6940P

[@seanwhite304]

@@deejay1534 The M4 TDP has always been 0.62 Gas Port and H BUFFER since it came out . M4A1 used H2 Buffer and Colt IAR used H3 Buffer . The M4 TDP is 0.62. Colt or US DOD cannot change that TDP because that's what the contract calls for . Once that M4 gets to its Unit , sure they can mess around with . All TDP M4 / M4A1s are batch tested by US DOD QC Expert . They test 6 M4s from every batch . They break down all 6 Carbines and swap rebuild them with parts from the other 6 Guns . Then they run all 6 Carbines through 6000 round endurance test . To my knowledge since 1994 the TDP has been 0.62 Gas Port but I also dont know everything. Could it been changed in early GWOT maybe . I honestly dont know . Colt owns the M4 TDP and that TDP expires in the year 2052. FNMI has to pay Colt a totality for using their TDP . HK 416D 10.4" for sure are superior for running suppressed and being used super hard. The same people who designed the 416 also designed Sig 516 and Caracal 816A2 . The 516 and 816 were the best kept secrets for long time . Plenty of operators were getting the job done with Colt MK18 MOD0 and Mod 1 CQBRs with KAC NT4 or SF SOCOM RC . Those operators would not use them if they weren't reliable . I've heard that Dam Neck used a shit ton of Noveske 10.5s , 14.5 and 16" as well . They will use whatever it takes to get the job done . I would also imagine they've used plenty of other stuff as well that we know nothing about . I honestly do not know if Devgru is still using 416s . Pretty sure CAG is but I couldn't tell you for sure or not . The only MCX I believe JSOC is using is actually called SURG . The SURG was the replacement for the Honey Badger chambered in 300 Blackout. The MCX lost French contract Trials . MCX is super nice modular design for sure . I definitely favor LMT MRP Piston just because it can be swapped to DI by changing the barrel and BCG . That change can be done at the user level and no Armorer is required. LWRCI is another awesome company that makes super solid Piston ARs . My personal favorite Piston operated gun is actually HK 433 . That's the only HK 556N I've ever wanted . Sucks HK is not bringing that to the commercial market . Me personally I'm DI fan . 12.5" - 13.9" barrel lengths are my favorites . Especially paired with OSS 556K Can . If I could only own 1 AR it would for sure be LMT MARS-L with DI and Piston Configs paired with OSS 556K..

[@happyhaunter_5546]

"multiple caliber/easy barrel swapping" (with an exception to LMGs/crew-served weapons pertaining to quick barrel swapping; NOT for differentiating between calibers) has always seemed like a solution asking for a problem to me

[@gregbagel791]

Do you have any experience operating the 17 H variant? I would love your thoughts on it, seems like its design for 7.62 made up for a lot of shortcomings of the L series. Was never a fan personally of the L series as it seemed to not bring enough to the table to warrant switching away from the AR platform, but the possibilities the H variant brought in a higher more powerful caliber seemed really good, but then again I am not in the military and have never even touched either of these rifles. Was always sad to see it dissed online so much for a charging handle FN was required to put in.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

I used the scar 17 in training, I never rolled with it in combat, I left that to my teammates

[@umi3017]

On 20:25 , this gun is actually an MK17 converted to 5.56, unlike MK16, it has longer upper receiver identical to MK17, and you can kinda see here is a little "tab" in the front of trigger grad to makes up the length difference of these two.

[@projXpat]

Hey Jeff what's the difference between SFAU and SFARTEC?

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Awesome question..text book answer SFAUC designed to get a 12-man team competent in single team/ breach point CQB, SFARTAETC multi-team, muti beach point. last 10 years SFAUC has morphed into a pre0deployment train up focusing on other tasks (convoy ops, mission planning and such) which I think was a mistake. SFAUC was created because of casualties from CQB in Iraq in late 2001, 2002. CQB most deadly mission, not convoys and such

[@projXpat]

@@ModernTacticalShooting Thank you Jeff for the response! Keep up the awesome content!

[@boneharvester_eth4021]

Great video and info. I like the reciprocating charging handle. It let’s me know I’m out of ammo with out breaking my sight/hold. The scar 20 is the perfect gun for me.

[@dylanheflin3666]

Can you not feel the difference on the last round with an AR?

[@beelbrother1648]

you definitely feel that last round thud with the 16 and 17.

[@wade6523]

I wouldn't call the reciprocating charging handle a feature. I'd call it a defect

[@MaxHeadspace9mm]

Forward assist. Necessary for combat conditions. Civilians wouldn’t understand.

[@xm3ntal620]

@@MaxHeadspace9mmrecip charging handle has never hindered anything for me. Also my chopped 11" scar suppressed eats everything I feed it.

[@Fugettaboutit]

Another outstanding and informative presentation.

[@Evirthewarrior]

It seems people always want to replace the M4/M16 and every attempt just makes an M4/M16 copy, and most of them function worse. As for "barrel changes" just get a different upper, swap it, easy. No one is going to carry a barrel bag around with them hot swapping barrels in combat on a rifle like that. You just have the different uppers back and base and you swap them. But it seems everyone wants a new gun that is worse in every way and pretend it is better. Remember the XM8? What a disaster that thing was. The HK416? That is just an M4 with a piston, you can buy a piston upper online easily.

[@Seth9809]

Most of the other pistons are absolute shit and piston systems need special bolts to work. Also in bulk orders the M27 is really cheap.

[@cokinator100ify]

Ehhh, I’m not a huge HK fan but the 416 is far better than most pistons available for the AR/M4 platforms. It’s like a spiritual M4 but still quite a redesign. The XM8/G36 gas system is pretty good, the receivers may have some issues and lacks the ease of modularity the AR systems have. The 416 kinda integrates that piston system for ARs. Personally I think the M4 is going to fit the bill for 90+% of what the military is going to be doing

[@Laotzu.Goldbug]

@@cokinator100ify I think that's because unlike 90% of them the HK416 was actually designed to use the piston from the get go and not as an afterthought. Of course throughout of its life it has still had to go through many iterations to deal with bunch of issues like gas adjustability, carrier tilt, rubbing and so on. From my money the PWS long-stroke system is the best AR piston variant out there (fwiw I never used into service and only owned it once I was again a civilian, so I can't speak to how it would hold up in a real fight compared to the proven 416, but mine has been good for years of hard use and shoots like a dream). That said, the original "DI" AR is still king for a reason.

[@scruffysstash]

Great info and knowledge. I've always been weary of the SCAR series of rifles. It just doesnt seem to do anything that a maintained, in-spec, m16/m4 can't do as a rifle, but brings additional failure points.

[@leonardwei3914]

@IronAndYarn The only advantage I can think of having a rifle that can barrel change is 1) Special Operations servicemembers stuck in the middle of Nowherestan and having to rely on (questionable) enemy stock to stay in the fight or 2) Civilians in countries that restrict the number of firearms one can own but wants to be able to fire multiple calibers.

[@beelbrother1648]

Keep in mind he's speaking about the prototype. All these issues are either past tense, or user error.

[@Lowkicksfordayz]

A scar in 556, that’s disgusting 🤮

[@Rando832]

I love shooters supply, that was my go to FFL when I was at bragg

[@jeffgreen4274]

You conducted one, 2 week evaluation of the weapon system in 2007. Wow! And it wasn't through the JCID selecting agency running testing. That is one of the problems with Army SF. If you want to know the real story about the SCAR MK 16, and by the way, that is a Navy designation. I was involved with the program from the beginning 2003-2008 when I retired as a SOCM/E-9. If you want the real facts about the whole SCAR program, feel free to contact me, because this is not the whole story.

[@mustang5132]

Can you just type out the story here?

[@nickpingel1155]

Great video as always

[@prodigalson1500]

The SCAR 556 sucked. That’s why it wasn’t selected. When I was in the Army, I tried it out, and I didn’t like it. It just felt awkward. The H&K 416 is good, and I really like the piston operated set up versus the gas operated set up on the Colt M4. Touching a cool barrel is really satisfying.

[@_____J_____]

Love these types of videos

[@AJ13B]

Paused it at 02:25 to say in other words.. The SCAR is like socialism, sounds good on paper but shits the bed when you put it to the true test! 🤭

[@Excludos]

Damn. Most of Europe and especially Scandinavia must have really shit the bed then :( Why do Americans think Socialism and Communism is synonymous?

[@andrestrishak8292]

​@@Excludosbecause they are

[@Excludos]

@@andrestrishak8292 Scandinavia are communist! You heard it here first

[@tasjan9190]

Subscribed! This channel is kick ass

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Thank You!

[@tasjan9190]

@@ModernTacticalShooting Your welcome.

[@McMeatBag]

That they actually wrote the spec to have the reciprocating handle blows my mind. It's not like non-reciprocating was a new idea.

[@MS_249]

Great insights! Thank you for the video!

[@LK-bz9sk]

Oh an actual operator breaking this down. Think I will listen👍🏾

[@renegadearms]

Very good breakdown

[@jonsmith6000]

Great content Should do more of these videos

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Funny, My intent was to do only shooting drill videos, but alas they get the lowest views. ) I still will post them though)

[@jonsmith6000]

@@ModernTacticalShooting we here man keep it coming should do some videos on prepping and shtf equipment

[@brazzy1467]

I'm a little late to this video. I was wanting to get the scar pistol and put the JMAC folding arm brace on it for security work. Well I went with the CMMG Dissent 5.56 10.5" upper and the 6.5" 300 blkout upper. I was able to setup both CMMG uppers for the price of one SCAR pistol without that had no accessories. Great video.

[@cjt-zv8vx]

Great information from an insider, thank you

[@ericearhart]

I joined the Army in Oct 85 and served as a cold warrior. It is great to see a real gun geek share operational experiences.

[@ModernTacticalShooting]

Geeks Unite

[@irafowlerjr.7492]

really enjoyed this video, helpful info, thanks

[@joquin4618]

And here I was thinking that the scarH 17 was the scar with all the issues, and the scar lite 16 was in 5.56 and therefore didn’t have issues….. boy I was wrong 😑 Thanks for all your info. God bless and I hope everyone has a great day!

[@KnifeCursed]

The rounds up in the op rod channel I think might have been corrected with a little plastic piece slid into the receiver. I have an early Virginia imported SCAR 16s that lacks that piece while a later South Carolina imported one has the piece. I’ve also noticed that the stock button color and mag wells molds are different between the two. Thanks for the informative video.

[@1olddirtroad]

Great channel ! I learn every video you do

[@charlesg5085]

Any idea why most of these S.F. guys are gay?