Why the UK has a problem with maths | FT Film

Miranda Green, FT deputy opinion editor, looks at why the UK has terrible number skills compared to other OECD countries, and what can be done to improve numeracy in secondary schools and among adults. This film is part of the FT's Financial Literacy and Inclusion Campaign, an independent charity supported by the FT. Visit ftflic.com to find out more
#maths #financialliteracy #education #ftflic #PISA
00:00 UK's poor number skills
02:32 Stealth maths in a garden
05:09 GCSE maths lesson
07:39 Learning about crypto
09:48 Fail culture
10:58 GCSEs outdated - Lord Baker
14:42 Poor numeracy is damaging
16:46 Need for financial literacy
19:18 Beauty of maths
23:23 Consensus for change?
25:20 A policy puzzle
27:10 SOHCAHTOA-help!
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[@olliert4840]

As a maths graduate, my view is that maths is a subject where it's really important that you don't get behind... In other school subjects, you sort of jump around and can learn different topics which are more contained within themselves, filling in gaps of knowledge later. With maths, everything sort of builds on top of itself. I think a lot of students find maths very difficult because they don't have super solid understanding of the stuff previously learnt, and so new stuff is even harder to pick up. In order to 'survive' maths you really need to go back to the part where your understanding starts getting sketchy and go from there, but there's not much scope for this during a school year.

[@theblackswordsman9951]

Exactly this, I had bad ADD in primary school and really suffered, but managed to get caught up with really good teachers in secondary. I still had to retake it a couple times but i always had a bad foundation. English was always my prefered subject, because as long as you could read you could grasp all the other stuff non linearly. In Maths, if you've not grasped the foundations or not learned them well you'll be slower to grasp the other stuff, or not grasp them at all, then the curriculum will leave you behind.

[@olliert4840]

yea exactly@@theblackswordsman9951

[@nighttrain1236]

Yes, that was the problem for me back-grounded by general adolescent apathy and teachers who bullied you if you failed. My experience of maths was thus a miserable one with classes feeling like an ordeal. I also believe that I arrived at grammar school with an inadequate foundation. My primary school was a happy one but it was more arts-directed than hardcore academic in contrast to some of the more 'serious' private schools that also fed the local grammar. Now I'm doing a Maths A level but I had to go back to learn basic stuff again. Even the basics of linear algebra had passed me by.

[@Ch1pp007]

Yeah, I used to tutor GCSE maths and the number of kids who didn't know times tables was astonishing. BUT they all have smartphones on them 24/7. Is it really fair to even have a non-calc exam when their ever-present smartphones have calculators on?

[@me-myself-i787]

Something like Sparx can really help with this. If you don't understand something, you can just watch the video which the question page links to.

[@gregreynolds5686]

As an engineer who didn't get good at mathematics until university, my view is that maths becomes so much more comprehensible when you have a real world problem to solve with it. The problem is that it's often only the higher level problems that need maths to solve them. I suggest one way of teaching maths to the younger might be to deliver it through practical problems, for example making a hexagonal frame out of a single piece of wood, or trying to work out the minimum amount of material to make something - and then actually making it and seeing where you went wrong.

[@peterhrtg]

Yes, in truth the “useful” maths could often be defined as physics (thus bleeding into engineering). Estimation is something I always taught at the very start of “A” level physics - even the good mathematicians were usually clueless. I fear there is still some truth in the joke about the brilliant mathematician who chucked it in when someone found an application for his work! Incidentally, keep the bl**dy PM and his gang well AWAY from any putative reforms - the amount of damage politicians have done to education (in general) over my lifetime (60+ years) is almost incalculable.

[@tinkeringtim7999]

Absolutely. I commented a rant about the ways maths is taught. Sets, groups, synthetic geometry, symmetry and combinatorics could be taught together before secondary school. fields, vector spaces could easily be taught early on (first term in secondary school). I have a book on navigation from 1904, the mathematics a 14 year old budding naval candidate was supposed to be able to do _without calculators_ includes spherical trigonometry, and complex problems that a modern physics graduate would have to specifically study to solve.

[@chimaka]

Very true...before I was lucky enough to have a passionate math teacher in high school, I sucked at math and hate doing anything related to it. Now I am an engineering undergrad doing maths everyday.

[@Sweenus987]

True, however I think the easiest application of maths would be to teach everyone things revolving around finance, namely investing since that has a wide range maths involved and maybe help people avoid getting easily scammed by "get quick rich" scams and just generally teach people how they can put their spare cash to good use should they want to

[@angelynakukwe9069]

How did you manage to get into a university course to study mathematics without being good at it?

[@vanellaicecream9821]

The reason that 30% of people fail GCSE maths is because the exam boards decided that the bottom 30% get a 3.

[@Cornel1001]

An those who sleep on exam receiving ..outstanding grades !

[@tricky778]

Yes I was amazed when I heard that they don't set grades to absolute performance, but of course, the schools vary and the best at one school will be as good as the best at the next even if their absolute performance is poorer. But it doesn't help you to pick the right people for the job, only to filter people into various lifestyles that you will choose for them. That didn't work out at all well for me.

[@23merlino]

and terrible teachers...

[@gazey]

That’s because the students who take the exams are failing them. What’s the point of having examinations if people who are getting 15% to 30% correct are passing? If you can’t get over 50% in an objective exam, you failed. I can understand if you’re getting 50% in a test that requires the use of words and explanation.

[@thedrinkinggamemaker9749]

And COVID students pass anyway

[@guitarman813]

I found maths at school to be very dull and demotivating. Just doing problems out of a textbook with no reason or purpose as to why we were doing those problems. Only to pass an exam ultimately. Now at 32, I see maths differently and in the past have done maths problems on platforms like Khan Academy. Such platforms have made me enjoy and appreciate maths much more than when I was at school.

[@bojoggs-ik8tq]

I found English dull, but I don't use that as some justification for not being able to read.

[@citrosoda5370]

School does a bad job of justifying the teaching of math, but managing your finances competently without algebra is extraordinarily difficult.

[@IshtarNike]

The funny thing is they don't teach it very differently in places that are "good" at maths. My friend is from Taiwan and he says they learn it the same way we do. The only difference is they start REALLY early and are doing their times tables in reception, and algebra by year 2. Perhaps the only issue is our lack of ambition. But there's a real issue with lack of expertise now. My other friend is a primary school teacher and as a maths specialist he said the average level of CONFIDENCE in maths teaching at primary is really low. Unlike something like English where a higher level of understanding isn't going to go that far (knowing middle English isn't all that useful for TEACHING English), being really confident and having a very deep level of knowledge is crucial for teaching maths because everything is related and interconnected and builds on everything else. I remember myself just feeling lost as things were clearly related but we weren't given good explanations of how or why.

[@neilbiggs1353]

I would say part of the problem is how subjects are assessed. I was put off English Literature by a tedious little gremlin of a teacher, who very much wanted you to learn the rote answers that would do well in exams. I think there is a danger in many subjects that we incentivise the teaching of the test and not the subject and maybe we need to separate education policy from the government to an independent body who can design the assessments in a way that requires the subject to be learned, and then let the education experts try to work out the best ways to teach to those new criteria. At the moment, there is far too big an incentive or governments to just create policy for the sake of being seen to try and do something. They'd have oversight of the bodies, but I wonder if we could have better debates about what changes are needed if we made the government take a step back in to more of an oversight role. We maybe need to be more open minded about what kind of assessments work - I remember my maths GCSE asked you to memorise formulae, but shouldn't the test be about who can break down a problem and work out the relevant technique to use rather than slavishly recall a rote approach when you are presented with a problem in a certain type. Some courses should maybe be 100% coursework, some should maybe be 100% exam (I'm thinking of foreign languages for example where using it is an all or nothing type environment), some should be open book so you have resources around to help you as knowing how to reference a source to help is a vital skill in the real world application of the subject. It sounds like your maths at school was taught to an exam that tested the wrong things

[@pjones7974]

i loved maths at school (particularly pure maths) but Because it's abstract and the black and whiteness of the exam questions. but it seems you have to be really confident at maths to actually enjoy it and the creative side of it or otherwise it just feels like trying to memorise a million different processes. and this makes it not exactly accessible for students who struggle with learning in this way. pure maths is a beautiful thing but the current secondary school /gcse curriculum is absolutely useless as a one size fits all, especially when they place so much importance on it above other subjects when ultimately it has very limited real world application. gcse maths is too hard and a lot of it is so niche that it really doesn't feel any more relevant or essential than any other subject you might enjoy. and its SAD maths can be so fun :--( core maths should be numeracy and real world concepts and then maybe more abstract pure maths could be a standalone option ?

[@debasishraychawdhuri]

When you realize that math is just a proper way of reasoning, you would understand the importance.

[@AlexanderjFraser1]

But people who understand that rarely become middle school math teachers.

[@freemanol]

​@@AlexanderjFraser1because the salary is miserable

[@thesnackbandit]

@@freemanol Also because it isn't challenging enough. I mean imagine you've gone through university and learned mathematics or at least something closely related, would you want to plummet all the way down to A Level or GCSE mathematics when you've spent the last 3/4 years of your life learning and mastering far more complex and interesting mathematics? Probably not for most.

[@wafercrackerjack880]

the problem is people dont even know how to properly reason using regular old language.

[@simple11q]

Math can also be used to manipulate and bias your numbers in certain directions and narratives, is it still good reasoning then?

[@freemanol]

I used to tutor secondary school students while I was in university there. The level of maths shocked me. There are 15 year olds who have no idea how to do basic algebra. I don't blame them, their school system is so broken

[@oldgreybeard2507]

Why would someone with a degree in Maths (or Physics or Chemistry) fund an extra year to take a high stress, low wage, low esteem politically knock about job as a teacher? Even if they are driven to teach would they want to teach infants. Nope A Level and top set GCSE thank you.

[@freemanol]

​@@oldgreybeard2507schools are underfunded. People also don't value maths and education in general enough. I grew up in asia where we have a mentality of taking education seriously. We know unless we get smart, we'd starve or live on the streets, there is no other way. I was surprised by how unambitious and uninspired many brits are. I worked my arse off by working part time as a programmer while taking my degree, while a lot of british kids don't go to university despite having access to generous student loans and bursaries. The school system is broken, but part of the problem is that the general population is not demanding better from the government.

[@oldgreybeard2507]

@@freemanol I was at Uny (many moons ago) with a Chinese (Taiwanese) guy who I am still in contact with. He was horrified back in the day at the general attitude of students and at their poor maths skills and their lack of concern about those poor skills. I understand what you are saying and don't disagree. Post industrial Britain. Take care.

[@echochamber1234]

​@@freemanol "I was surprised by how unambitious and uninspired many brits are." Yeah, the welfare state will do that to people. and it's not just Britain.. US and most of continental Europe isn't much better.

[@MrBlaxjax]

@@echochamber1234look things are just not that simple. I spent a couple of years teaching in China. Kids there are constantly under the gun. Get to school by 7.30 am often not leaving till 10 pm. Extra private lessons at the weekend etc. The whole of society is super competitive. Everyone is under immense pressure to pass exams in order to obtain a place at a ‘good’ university. But the way they learn is often absurd. Endless rote learning and memorisation. They have no critical thinking skills. They are not encouraged to ask questions. In their science classes they don’t do any experiments. Science is something they just learn out of a book. And of course the children are mostly underdeveloped. They don’t have time to do much exercise outside the daily communal exercise routine. Compare this system with the average British public school (ie a private school) with a pretty short day in class and hours and hours of sport and I know which system is better for children. British state schools should take a leaf out of the British private school system and get kids to do at least an hour a day of sport or exercise. This creates fitter kids that can learn better. The British upper classes have known this for centuries. Chances of this happening are about zero. The government would have to invest about a trillion pounds in school swimming pools hockey pitches and squash courts and obviously it isn’t going to happen. Just more and more targets for overworked teachers to meet. Including to improve mathematics. Instead make sure the children are physically fit, try to ensure their nutrition is good (and we should start by critically examining the awful dietary advice we have all had for 40 years or more. Advice that has made us mostly fat and sluggish). Reengineer the built environment to make it safe for children to cycle to school. Not going to happen though is it.

[@miguesilva_o_tolo]

As a Portuguese teenager, I can say all the subjects are progressively connected in our school system. Like you need maths to understand chemistry, you need it also to the Portuguese subject and vice versa. You need to understand physics to perform better at P.E. In conclusion, by connecting and showing how connected these subjects are, the school system is showing us how important each subject is in our daily lives, so the overwhelming majority of us can understand the purpose of each one. Sorry for my English, it is not the best ahah

[@amenbrother8818]

Spot on, make it relevant and it becomes inherently interesting.

[@sogga_fan]

you type like chatgpt

[@allanjmcpherson]

That's both rude and uncalled for @@sogga_fan

[@sogga_fan]

@@allanjmcpherson it is your choice to be offended by such harmless words.

[@allanjmcpherson]

@@sogga_fan and it is your choice to be considerate of others or not

[@beewa8840]

A tale of two maths teachers. I was put in the lesser maths class for studying for exams (CSE and O Level era) and up until then wasn't interested. But this maths teacher (Mr P) was different. He taught the whole class and then those who didn't understand could line up at his desk for one to one help. Wow, a teacher who wanted to help his students and wasn't just passing time listening to his own voice. At the end of the year some of us moved to the O Level class where the teacher (Mr R) felt it okay to humiliate, intimidate (mainly the asian girls) and insult the class. At the end of the year he made everyone do CSE. I know some, whose parents could afford it, took the O Level elsewhere. Further education and university education, for me, has dimmed the pain of those earlier experiences.

[@jacqueslee2592]

Sounds like your teacher had something for the Asian girls.

[@faithlesshound5621]

Mr R had the Severus Snape attitude to teaching. Make the classroom really tough and let the OWLs weed out most of the kids. Only those who get an Outstanding get to go on to NEWTs. That made teaching the (very small) NEWT class a lot easier for him. I like the sound of the maths class at prewar Winchester. Freeman Dyson said the master concentrated on the LESS able boys, to bring them all up to scratch. For the real high flyers who were doing university level work in the sixth form, he hired a lecturer from the local university to come in a couple of times a week to tutor them. That was probably what the boys needed and their parents wanted. Everyone learned as much as they could, and the trained educator concentrated his efforts on those who found it hardest to learn.

[@nobodyofimportance3922]

I was a teenager who went through an English high school maths education as an undiagnosed autistic with ADHD. I excelled in English and the humanities, even in the sciences I was a high performer. In the Maths classroom, however, I found myself in an environment that was impatient, hostile, and humiliating. My teachers never made an effort to make the lessons interesting, but they would always make an effort to humiliate me whenever they had the chance to do so. You weren't listening for a moment? Get out the class. You get a question wrong? Get out the class. There was one teacher who i had for Maths who i hated and who hated me, and he made my life in that classroom a living hell (he would later turn out to be a pedophile, which was an unpleasant revelation). Years after that experience i went through life under the assumption that i had no maths aptitude, all because some shitty teachers convinced me that i had no ability in the subject. In contrast, my Humanities and English teachers were always very nice, patient, and encouraging. I don't think it's a coincidence that i excelled in the classes that were positively reinforcing and patient. I think that, were maths classes more patient, encouraging, and inclusive of different minds, instead of prone to making an example of the outliers, then more people wouldn't be afraid of it

[@monkaeyes3417]

I agree for your case, but that's just your experience. I also grew up with undiagnosed ADHD and I have always had better Maths teachers than English teachers. The whole humiliation thing, came from my English teachers, and I struggled a lot. Whilst your issue is entirely valid for yourself, I don't think it is valid to suggest this for the whole of the UK.

[@markv559]

Maybe, maybe not

[@fantasypvp]

​​@@monkaeyes3417All my maths teachers at GCSE were decent and they're all really good at A level (I'm at a fairly high ranking college though so results may vary) but my GCSE English teachers were terrible lmao, I had perhaps 2 decent ones out of 5 in secondary school. In year 10 we had a good teacher and I got a 7 in the mock In year 11 we had a bad teacher and I got 5's in the mocks. I ended up with an 8 and a 9 through watching KZbin revision videos. Just goes to show that GCSE teachers are just trying to get as many people as possible to pass and don't care about the people trying to get the higher grades, having a 5 in English would have ruined my chances of getting in a high end uni

[@lin90210]

I had a teacher who never believed in me. She found out what occupation I wanted to study for. She questioned I would get into my subject in university. My friend stood up for me and said "she can do it" but my teacher said "we'll see we'll see"...Good thing I'm stubborn and made it 😅 the teacher was an art teacher...marking was subjective...bias

[@Custodian123]

As someone who excelled at english, please delineate your giant paragraph.

[@manuelsalado]

Education in China cannot be compared to the UK. Children are under a lot of pressure from their families to succeed and be better than their peers. They study loooong hours to achieve high grades due to this pressure.

[@user-xh3xx9zl9g]

basic math is vital

[@cfromnowhere]

The accuracy of that data is also questionable. It is likely the level it shows is only representative of people living in major cities (at least 2nd tier and higher) with local hukou who are likely to be middle-class and privileged enough to send their children to good schools and afford tutoring. Rural areas, small cities, people who do not have hukou in their city of residence and those who never pursue further education after the official school leaving age of 15 are not counted.

[@leematthews6812]

How ironic that directly opposite your post is a link to a video titled 'China's Youth Employment At Record Highs'.

[@stephenwalters9891]

I agree. The top country for education is FINLAND and not CHINA.

[@babyfreezer]

and how long are we gonna push for child/student/working conditions until we get out of our delusion that we are still productive?

[@SimPilotMika]

I love maths, it’s so relaxing, factual, routine, the language of the universe, one of the most helpful school subjects. I’m probably going to be the first person to say this, but I miss maths class

[@scrumptious9673]

First and last 😆

[@mitchellwahl3254]

I fell in love with math at age 14 when I discovered quadratic equations ❤❤❤

[@Herobeans]

​@@mitchellwahl3254What's so special about ax^2 + bx + c = 0

[@johnyeomans6909]

My kids did Kumon for about three years before high school. Made a huge difference and eliminated one subject that they needed to worry about. Kumon is just daily maths worksheets,starting from really basic to getting slowly harder.

[@spectre8_fulcrum]

yeah instead of paying for kumon, you can print your own sheets at home. thats common sense. kumon is a scam where you dont learn shite. i feel sorry for your kids.

[@racool911]

Kumon, also known as hell on earth. Almost made me hate math as a kid, and math was always my favorite subject. Can't deny that the endless tedious worksheets were effective tho.

[@spectre8_fulcrum]

@@racool911 worksheets are effective once you have been taught, something which pressured kids miss out in school, and something that kumon doesn't do, teach. Kumon is like going to a factory of manufacture to use a product.

[@racool911]

@@spectre8_fulcrum It's been a long time so I could be wrong but I remember there being people there to teach the stuff to you if you don't get it. The problem for me personally was the problems I knew how to do but were tedious. And they would keep giving me the same stuff I already knew how to do cause I would make a silly mistake here and there. It felt I wasn't learning anything, but the stuff I did know got better. So I guess you are kinda right on that

[@westlondonchorus-formerlyc240]

Don't say they get 'harder'! If things build on each other properly, then they're equally easy! The assumption that maths is 'hard' is half the problem.

[@NerreraFightStories]

Feeling this now as an adult working in Finance. Not like you need incredible Maths skills for the job I work but I am insecure about my Maths skills and it all boils down to the terrible teaching and support I had in a failing UK school. Was stuck with the same teacher for the majority of secondary school and he was just awful, fell way behind and ended up with a C at GCSE. I have a Masters in Finance and scraped passes in some Maths related modules so I'm not absolutely hopeless but I found it terribly hard. Aged 25 now and not sure if I can get to a good level or I'm stuck this way.

[@oldgreybeard2507]

There are loads of videos on KZbin to help you. Statistics to Mechanics. You could even (time permitting) do a night class starting with Higher Maths GCSE and then A Level (bearing in mind that a lot of A level may not be relevant). Even going through the Higher GCSE maths curriculum (not called that anymore) with a couple of good GCSE books at home will help. I assure you ITS NEVER TOO LATE.

[@oldgreybeard2507]

Bloody Hell I have just realised your only 25 (so much for my grasp of numbers). Your just a kid.

[@cb7560]

I completely agree with you about the teaching at school. Our whole class failed O level back in the 1980s. I went on to work in finance as well. I was very good a mental maths etc, which out me ahead of my peers at work but could never master equations etc.

[@uniteddreamer]

A spell of maths tutoring might help. Sometimes it's just a little stumbling block that is blocking your learning.

[@you-know-who9023]

Actually with a C in O level , in my opinion at least, you have sufficient grounding to brush up on any math you feel you need without much difficulty. What is more you would probably enjoy it a lot more than school and with online tutorials it would not take up much of your time. Good luck 🙋

[@BugCatcherSimp]

I'm 17, I took my GCSE maths exam in 2022. I found mathematics hellish. It's haunted me my entire life, I'm genuinely interested in Computer Science but I'm hindered by my Grade 4 (C) Pass grade at GCSES. Any choices I have in the future now were dictated by my state school mathematics lessons, we weren't taught to love maths like I'm starting to now, we were taught to chance it and get a lucky pass grade at a Foundation Exam. Even though I passed, most universities require a B, which was unobtainable for the papers I sat, again, which I had no choice but to sit. Something has to change for the better, Maths is pure, problem-solving awesome, but the classes were dire, unimaginative and were mostly taught by part-time PE teachers my school had available. Just because we hadn't unlocked our skills as fast as everyone else, we were given nothing to work with or for, and better yet, became ridiculed by staff and other students constantly for not progressing. We deserve better than this, and so do the minority of passionate Maths teachers left, always on ludicrously low wages. Sort out your schools Britain.

[@skyandthemoon]

I don't understand why secondary schools don't tell their student that you need a 6 (B) to do most Higher level courses in college and universities. I was in a similar position as you I'm just lucky I did some research in year 10 and figured out that doing the foundation paper would trap me so I begged my school to let me do the higher paper. Most students should take the higher paper and if you have a learning disability or are struggling in maths then you take the foundation paper

[@vice.nor.virtue]

Wow, I'm so glad that I didn't need to have a B in Maths for the college I went to. I hated maths and believe I only managed to scrape a C on the foundation exam that I did. Having that stupid letter dictate your future is such a tough prospect.

[@xavier4260]

Lol wait till you do a level math, especially mechanics 😅. I got grade 8 in GCSE math

[@b1gb017]

as a maths and physics undergraduate, I’m all for the split in mathematics, having a core/practical maths and a more pure/abstract maths would serve students well I think. Day to day there actually isn’t much use for understanding higher level maths concepts, however they’re crucial and lay the foundation for many jobs based in engineering, programming, finance, data analysis, etc. Any student hoping to peruse a career in any of those subjects MUST have a strong understanding of high level fundamental maths concepts, however the majority of the population, simply won’t have any use for them, so by instead focusing on practical applications that’re often used day to day, students will likely be more engaged, or at least have a better appreciation for the utility of the subject, and more importantly, be able to aptly apply mathematical skills when needed. I think there also needs to be a fundamental change in our process of teaching mathematics. Maths cannot be taught like history or biology, there needs to be a much bigger focus on understanding proofs, logic, and derivations. With our current curriculum students aren’t pushed to understand maths concepts, only use them, and far too little time goes into explaining why it works. It seems some educators believe that trying to explain the derivation of formulas would only confuse students, particularly those struggling already, but I reckon the reason they’re struggling is because they haven’t been shown why it works in the first place! the UKMT does a great job of this, their challenges are full of much more practical questions with a much stronger reliance on simple logic rather than abstract mathematical concepts, actually displaying the power of rational thinking and some basic algebra, geometry, and numeracy skills and how it can solve day to day problems. that’s just what I reckon though

[@durianjaykin3576]

im getting crushed in discrete maths because of a lack of proof education :(

[@pardonmybumbershoot5085]

Great comment. I fully agree that the reasoning and understanding (the "WHY") behind the concepts should be taught. As a poor maths student myself, that would have helped so much more than just wielding the concepts as a blunt tool.

[@evandrofilipe1526]

I agree totally with this, though I think proofs are unnecessary, derivations are incredible. I think a problem with maths in general is that a lot of the times some information could be in a diagram or an equation, instead it's in the goddam text or simply implied. For example, sign information being lost when doing for example projectile motion because it's supposedly easier to abstract away the notion of a vector. I definitely think geometric algebra should be taught. All of these things are difficult and I remember being extrememly bored at gcse and just wanting to do calculus. This is why I think it totally makes sense that stats should be mandatory and maths should be optional.

[@halfrightface]

Thank you! I was pushed so hard to take the calculus track in high school. How much of calculus have I used in my 18 year career in finance? Absolutely none. Which topics do I wish I had taken instead, but was advised not to because “it’s for the stupid kid?” Statistics. Economics. Financial literacy. Completely broken system

[@xavier4260]

In A LEVEL, you have Pure(core), mechanics, and then stats

[@user-kh9sq2wz5n]

As a school teacher of40 years in the classroom, the disconnect is simple. Successive UK governments have decimated the manufacturing base of the UK, so we are training young people in a system that supports them to go into 'service industries' not training them to gain access to vocational training in manufacturing and production. If the UK neither makes nor produces- do you need a large community of mathematical literates and engineers?

[@MikeStoneJapan]

Great point

[@OnlineEnglish-wl5rp]

And with deindustrialisation went that working class culture of night schools, libraries, workers' education associations etc

[@oisinhennessy6846]

"successive uk governments have decimated the manufacturing base of the uk" .... are you really certain about that? Perhaps instead of "governments' decimating it, its simply that the uk services sector is relatively more competitive than uk manufacturing? Do British people actually want to work on production lines? Do you - or is this something you want other people to do? Some sectors like pharmaceuticals and automotive have done ok. Perhaps the cause of the UKs manufacturing decline is due to massive subsidises to manufacturing by foreign competitors like China - do you want to cut the UK's massive NHS and benefits payments to instead subsidise manufacturing in order to make it globally competitive?

[@OnlineEnglish-wl5rp]

@@oisinhennessy6846More "competitive"? Like when the banks blew themselves up costing £3 trillion in bailouts and lost growth I worked on a production line for Schlumberger with hundreds of other British people LOL now we see where you're coming with "massive NHS and benefits payments" - a free marketeer who just can't face the fact his ideology has made Britain a poorer place

[@graaaaaahhhhhhhh]

You will do very poorly in life without math skills. Just think of your ability to understand loans, pensions and working the tax system to your advantage etc.

[@ExamSolutions_Maths]

Great video and great to see FT covering this epidemic. I did my BSc degree in Maths, which helped me get my first job as a City Trader, and now I'm fortunate enough to teach maths to millions of students around the world and help to change lives, which is the most rewarding of all. None of these could have been possible if I didn't get the right teacher. We need to provide more incentives to attract the best teachers into the field and embrace technology to enhance the student's learning experience. Core Maths is a great skill but we also need to educate our students that the logical reasoning and problem-solving skills required for 'unnecessary' topics like trigonometry and quadratics can be equally as important in the real world.

[@DaringToast]

It's a valid point indeed. I found maths really difficult during GCSE, but I took Edexcel Additional Maths in Y11 which was similar to Y1 of A-Level maths. I, who had found GCSE maths really hard, literally dreading every lesson, found myself enjoying maths again learning about differentiation and more. And so I somehow ended up taking A-Level maths and getting an A! I'm now in my first year at med school, typing this in the university library. The biggest issue is the delivery of those initial concepts from Y7-Y11. It clicked for me when I learnt more methodical methods of A-level maths, and learnt the derivations of all concepts. It helped me understand the more fundamental concepts much more easily. I'm not sure how, but I think the more methodical approach of A-level math concepts such as differentiation, integration and binomial expansion are easier to get your head around as you just need to follow step A to B to C. Hey also, thanks for all your videos, you've been a life and grade saver throughout school (Especially the ladder-angle ones). Your videos are part of the change! Please keep doing what you do!

[@tykep1009]

This reminds me of my childhood days in the UK (I'm Japanese but grew up in London until seven in the 80s). At the kindergarten I attended, each student was free to make their own progress in math studies, so I competed with a girl (she was also Japanese) to make more progress in math than anyone else in the class. Eventually, we completed multiplication and progressed to the division section before 1st grade, but neither of us understood the concept of division, and we ended up cheating on each other's wrong answers. Of course, the teacher noticed and scolded us for it, rightfully so. Those days were the most fun I've ever had learning math. I had the impression that the UK is a progressive country with free learning and prestigious schools, so knowing it is weak in maths today surprised me.

[@ActuallyJamesS]

The UK does have lots of prestigious schools, it just sadly also has a lot of weak ones, particularly in poorer areas.

[@MeiinUK]

@@ActuallyJamesS: Some people wanted to run them even though they don't have the capacities. The other thing also is.. not able to reverse calculate an actual implied situation. That is my own issue too. Knowing the basic of an actual concept, and reverse assumption is a lot harder. As you don't know what are the contributing factors.

[@ssuwandi3240]

Not weak but generally not the top favorite.. do you always believe everything radical MSMs told you? They crowing an illegitimate should make you wonder how shaky the ethic of journalism these days

[@ricardoxavier827]

I used to bad on maths until my 19 years old. When i join a new professional high level school diplom, the math teacher disapear, and it was the disciplines teachers who had the goal to teach math. With that, all math was with goals, and sudenaly, i become one of the best of the class, instead of one of the worst of the class, only because that math start to make sense and start to be a real need to beat the on site pratical chalenges. Math cannot be teach without clear and practical goal, on the moment. And the best learning way, is first the fail on the goal, to than add the math technich to beat the chalenge. The educational system are totaly wrong because they dont want thinkers. They just want submissive workers only smart enough to do the job they are paid to. Only the submiss accept to learn something that they dont know yet exactly for what can be used for and tested to see to believe that works.

[@waleedkhalid7486]

I love that style of learning, but it REALLY only works when the individual is self motivated. You said you found another kid to compete with, but you probably forgot the other dozen or so kids who probably did the bare minimum to get by, and probably cheated to get to the bare minimum anyway.

[@heronimousbrapson863]

I'm not sure about the UK but my experience with maths here in Canada in the senior grades was such that the subject was taught with the objective of culling out those who would be good candidates for a academics, engineering, etc. and forgetting about everyone else.

[@Otter-Destruction]

Same in the US, it seemed like the teachers were there to just weed out those that either got it or those that didn't.

[@you-know-who9023]

Just a bit of information here in Ireland Math along with English and Irish are compulsory right through school so the majority complete 14 years of math. In addition to the compulsory subjects students must take at least three more subjects and usually seven. The choice subjects after our equivalent of GCE O'levels are chosen from within business (i.e. Economics, Business or Accountancy) usually one or more science subjects, depending on individual choice, one choice from four technology choice, this not always chosen, one arts subject in most cases a third language. So for example my son will choose applied maths , physics a technology subject and German. Quite a few of the math subjects will also have a certain element of mathematics within. Other students will choose different subjects but even then there is still an element of maths in at least one or more choice subjects in addition compulsory math. In leading up to the O'Level equivalent ,which we call Junior Certificate, students sit nine examinations and will have studied 14 subjects. Of the nine subjects students will choose 2 or 3. So at 11 year of studies compulsory subjects such as business studies, Geography, science will also include elements of mathematics in addition to compulsory math. Another very important point is that in the Irish school system every student follows the same system for eleven years and 85 percent for 13 years and 75 percent for 14 years as one of the high school years is an optional transition year. For eleven years the only deviation is in 9 , 10, and eleven, and only involves 3 compulsory subjects Maths, Irish and English, where there is a higher or ordinary subject depending on ability. For the last two years the subject curriculum is either higher or ordinary depending how the students ability is in each subject. In the case of maths there is also a third easier paper for students who are still weak in Maths. So the objective is to keep doing maths and even those who are weaker in math can still proceed to 3rd level or work via a trade without being unnecessarily streamlined and reaching a good competence in maths which needs to be applied in the world of work and every day life Of course Ireland is much smaller 5 million people and one education authority at primary and secondary level so it is probably easier to implement than in countries with bigger populations. I have also noticed that in two other European countries with small populations ,Finland ( 5 million people ) and Estonia (1 .3 million people) maths also follows Students until the finish education at 18. In this video I also noticed that Scotland and Wales (part of the UK unlike Ireland) with small populations also have a different education system than England but I do not know much about it. Take care 🙋

[@nathasyapramudita6312]

I think we can all agree on this one. I live in Indonesia and I feel you. Teaching system (in math especially) tend to leave behind everyone that didn't catch up with top-3 student in class. And they blame us for that, they didn't care if we have family problem before school that make us hard to concentrate, or we didn't eat breakfast in home because poverty issues. They don't care.

[@melindagallegan5093]

When I finished secondary school 10 years ago, they were going to make English and maths compulsory until 18 at that point too. I hope that if they extend maths, they do the same for English.

[@wilsjane]

@@you-know-who9023 I have several in-law families in Ireland and most of their children feel that in this day and age, Irish should not be a compulsory subject. Do you agree with them, I am open minded.

[@victoriab8186]

A system which says that you are not allowed to fail, but which enforces failure on 30% of the population, is a system which is going to consistently make life worse for 30% of people. A system which chooses pass boundaries based on how many people get a grade, is a system in which students are not learning to be good at a subject, they are learning to be better than others. It is a system which enforces the idea that you can only succeed if other people do worse than you.

[@Pianoguy32]

i think that sitting in a class looking at calculations for an hour a day is a great way to make most of the class bored and switch off. Maths needs to be taught in an applied way so it makes sense to people in the real world.

[@dugebuwembo]

I could see the applications of maths everywhere as a child during GCSEs & A-Level; Circle theorem & trigonometry is critical in construction, engineering, & architecture to calculate angles & curves. Calculus is also used in architecture and was used in construction of basilicas & arches in Roman & Islamic architecture. Mathematics is applied in physics & crucial for an understanding of ballistics. We learned that a poor understanding of the physics of ballistics in world war 1 led to many avoidable casualties as shells landed on our own infantry as they ran across the battlefield from trenches where the shells were supposed to land in front of them to clear the way. Not to mention the physics of locomotion. In pure maths at A level we also learned about probability, probability distributions & statistical models that could be applied to understand things like the lottery & financial market data. In decision mathematics we were taught graph theory which has application to all types of networks including roads, electrical grids, WiFi, water etc. I struggle to understand how anyone can claim that they couldn't see the applications for mathematics in the real world even as children. Maybe this is a failing in teaching... 🤷🏿‍♂️ 😪

[@dugebuwembo]

& yes mathematics involves looking at, understanding & working on calculations. Saying that children get bored for learning maths an hour day Infantilises them.

[@hezarfen777]

I loved finally using the real world application of higher math in the sciences. But to get anywhere near a proficiency that allows you to routinely apply math at whatever level in real life, you cannot avoid doing rote calculations as basic training, unless you are highly gifted.

[@samanthaperry4543]

Honestly, before they think about maths at the higher ages, they should investigate how children progress at primary levels. I did work experience at a primary school and I had to do extra reading with children who were struggling to read (5-6 year olds) and a lot of the kids who were struggling just needed someone who was willing to be patient to let them sound out the words and think about the context of what was happening in the text (while not making them feel embarrassed for not being fast enough). When they got it on their own (admittedly after a while), it was amazing to see how those kids became more confident and lit up. Often, there is just not enough time for those kids and they just get left behind. As a result they just disengage and stop trying to learn because they can't keep up. I remembered this because now that I'm studying maths at uni, I have really underestimated the power of reading and comprehension, especially for tricky maths questions (that are now put into real life contexts) and I just think that our foundations in reading and learning how to learn are just too weak. It's only now, at uni, that I have realised that I don't know how to learn and think for myself. I am only starting to learn to think critically and use what I have to solve harder questions (break down problems and solve them in parts). I was super lucky to have parents who were willing to invest time into securing those foundations at home, but I am aware that a lot of families don't because they lack the resources, time or confidence to do so.

[@scrumptious9673]

Love this

[@ro2nie]

I came to the UK from another country and what shocked me is how when teachers realise that you are falling behind, make sure that they ridicule you in front of the class for not knowing something. The mental block that puts in you is incredibly limiting. It wasn't until university that I actually started loving maths again, when I had proper lecturers that didn't need to assert their ego

[@frogandspanner]

I was a university academic who after retirement went into secondary school physics teaching. When I was a kid from a council estate in Leeds all my schoolmates saw education as a way of escaping a life down Broom Pit, and many of us did improve our lives through education. But when I began teaching the attitude of kids was that education had not helped their parents so it would not help them, so they would not work. We have a society and economy that has failed a couple of generations. If education proves not to better lives why bother? It is not the art and mechanism of teaching that needs to change, but the actual job outcomes of learning.

[@bluevillsplash]

The art and mechanism of teaching math needs to be changed. They don't teach math, they make you memorize the basics, then long division and variables rear their ugly heads and hell begins. The American school system at least.

[@haakonah]

The job outcomes of learning are still good in fields like machine learning and math heavy programming/scientific computations. It takes a lot of time to get to a level where you can become a productive mathematician, so I'm not so sure about policies or campaigns trying to lift the importance of maths. It should be a more organic process.

[@nukkuminen]

I'd say there's a good case for both. It's no coincidence that our social mobility indices have negatively correlated with educational outcomes but it is also true that our curriculum is not delivering even when compared against similarly unequal countries.

[@vitalyl1327]

This is a problem with culture, to start with. What a disgusting attitude - to get an education to simply earn more. And to be disappointed when it did not happen. Think of some counter-examples: there were very educated, very cultured populations that were stuck in poverty and disadvantaged by the state - e.g., the Jewish population in the Imperial Russia. They perceived education as a worthy goal on its own, no matter how it affects the outcomes in life. And there are numerous more examples. I cannot really sympathise with anyone who only learn to earn money, no matter, on school level, or higher education.

[@frogandspanner]

@@vitalyl1327 That does not refute the observation that kids do not think that education benefits them in any way.

[@Pmooli]

"All manner of sins shall be forgiven upon man, unless the sin against not passing math"...favorite quote of my Maths teacher

[@tigerbw3361]

The new maths syllabus in England is actually one of the best in Europe and is why the country has improved in PISA against other Western countries. It's not a problem unique to the UK.

[@The_New_IKB]

When I was doing me GCSEs about 12/14 years ago, the teacher struggled to relate the maths to the real world. He straight up said that we needed the knowledge to pass the test and could forget it afterwards!

[@earljohnbautista908]

😮 I'm still grateful for my school back when I was still in my elementary to high school (Philippines) how much the academic curriculum then was heavily focused with math and science. We weren't allowed to use calculators even to solved quadratic equations and complex computations. That really helped me finished my undergraduate program in Computer Science.

[@Haseki94]

True. You have to compute cubes and squares from paper. No scientific calculator then. Not allowed in the classroom.

[@marionettekent]

21:33 yes in Hong Kong we are almost two to three years ahead of the UK in terms of the maths curriculum, but the way we achieve that is by the form of cognitive bullying the professor mentioned. We just bully students so hard and all day from home to classroom that it somehow worked out for a larger proportion of students. Pretty sure the UK doesn't need that. But admittedly even in academia the arithmetic and statistics ability of British educated people can be improved. The current curriculum is good enough if it is fully understood. The problem is about the teaching and the learning culture, not for how long you study maths.

[@ant713m]

Because maths is taught in a stupid way in the UK. If I didn't have indian parents who taught me how to do maths the way they learnt, I'd be so behind. It's getting worse. When I'm in shops etc the staff are frequently unable to do mental calculations to give you change unless they have a calculator. The government want a thick generation so that we don't ask questions.

[@mizuki2264]

I do agree, the fear of maths does stop a lot of kids progressing. My mum had a hard time trying to change children’s mindsets about hating maths. Before that, they would always mess around thanks to how it was taught before. A lot of the time, it’s: if you don’t understand, there is no help for you. If you do understand, we won’t help you to progress. Schools really need to change how it’s taught, otherwise the fear and hatred of maths will never go.

[@soaf1985]

I didn't realise maths anxiety was actually a thing til my son, who at the time was 7 or 8, experienced it. It was actually scary and worrying at times seeing his reactions to doing maths. He was scared of getting the wrong answer and would call himself dumb if he couldn't understand it. Physical signs like rocking, picking at the skin around his nails, crying. Then the words I can never forget 😔 "maybe if I was dead, you wouldn't have to teach me maths anymore." This was during covid, so a lot of children were suffering mentally. But this only ever happened when he did maths work. I have had to find different methods to help him. From youtube videos where they explain clearly step-by-step. Maths games on my phone or bbc bitesize. My own maths study sessions with him. Til this day I still have to explain to him before doing maths work, that it is ok to make mistakes. I am very worried about primary school kids who missed out on so much during covid. It feels like subjects like maths are being rushed through now. You have to get a tutor (which not everyone can afford) or put in a lot more of your own time to help them catch up.

[@randomcow505]

as a maths tutor, maths fear is honestly the number 1 reason as to why people are bad at maths its so hyped up to be such a difficult subject, when in reality its no more difficult than English or art (art is actually much harder) the amount of students (including my mother) who cant do maths because they believe they just cant do it is astounding but once you break down that barrier most people grasp the concepts really quickly my method is just explaining to them that I cant do mental maths at all and I never learned my multiplication tables once people realise that even someone as dumb as me can fly thru it, they tend to get past the barrier

[@nathasyapramudita6312]

I don't think that British people have low ability of understanding math is due to their incompetent or lack of intelligence. I think the blame is in how they teach math itself. With our technology and how fast we moves with LLM, our children can learn math by themself if they want. They can ask even "stupid questions" without getting afraid of being mock, and the teacher roles is to guide them. Understand your students one by one can make a great impact on how we taught (every subject in general) in modern era.

[@wilsjane]

Best thought out answer that I have seen in many years. I also thing that advanced maths should give the student a choice of three exam papers, one focused on finance, another on science and the third on engineering. The results should show which paper was chosen, allowing universities or employers to better select their candidates..

[@passerby4507]

Please don't rely on AI for schooling young children. It a) is a source of many errors b) doesn't guide a student through necessary steps in the learning process. Getting an answer is not the same as learning.

[@ricardoxavier827]

I used to bad on maths until my 19 years old. When i join a new professional high level school diplom, the math teacher disapear, and it was the disciplines teachers who had the goal to teach math. With that, all math was with goals, and sudenaly, i become one of the best of the class, instead of one of the worst of the class, only because that math start to make sense and start to be a real need to beat the on site pratical chalenges. Math cannot be teach without clear and practical goal, on the moment. And the best learning way, is first the fail on the goal, to than add the math technich to beat the chalenge. The educational system are totaly wrong because they dont want thinkers. They just want submissive workers only smart enough to do the job they are paid to. Only the submiss accept to learn something that they dont know yet exactly for what can be used for and tested to see to believe that works.

[@wft15]

*maths

[@mrjoe5292]

​@@wft15 "maths" is a british spelling, plenty of places in the world shorten mathematics to just "math".

[@TheOtherAsian13]

This is quite true. I schooled in Sri Lanka and completed my bachelor’s in Finance there. Then I did my Masters in Banking and Finance at one of the Russel Group universities in the UK and I could clearly see that British students were lagging behind in maths. I currently work in finance in London and lot of my colleagues are not British. In fact only around 20% of them are British.

[@LEWIS1992]

Yeah but that's London. Almost nobody there is British anymore.

[@bobsbeans7002]

Our undergraduate math proficiency is bad for sure, but i have not seen it from experienced British staff, the opposite in fact. Part of that is because of affirmative action and Indians/Chinese hiring only Indians/Chinese. I've sat at meetings where they have rejected white candidates to "maintain the diversity" of their 90% Indian and Chinese department. I've had Indians admit they only hire Indian because its easier to boss them about.

[@tricky778]

​@@LEWIS1992could this be why?

[@nomi2547]

Finance isn’t about maths though unless you’re a quant? Most banks recruit from a diverse background re university courses so your statement makes no sense

[@mrs.potatohead8471]

@@LEWIS1992 50% of people in London are white "British."

[@Politely_Indifferent]

In my maths class in secondary school in the UK students were required to hold up a card with the correct answer to a maths question the teacher would ask. If a student(s) got the answer incorrect he would single them out for ridicule in front of the whole class. The teacher must have concluded this was acceptable since he was getting the rest of the class to ridicule those with the incorrect answers, not doing it himself, although he required everyone to participate in attempting to answer the questions. This was in the 1990s. If you have to teach by fear, your ability to communicate technical principles is insufficient for the role of teacher. It also degrades the mental integrity of those you teach, resulting in lower potential output. Children can be taught anything to a competent level at an early age, with varying levels of success depending on the child's cognitive abilities and the method of teaching used.

[@xx-wp3mq]

Yup, this was a massively scary thing for me in the early 00s via whiteboards.

[@LEWIS1992]

Parents need to take a MUCH bigger slice of responsibility. How the hell are kids getting to 11+ without knowing their times tables??!!

[@victoriab8186]

aaaaand it's this kind of thinking that put me off maths for years. I was decent at maths in primary school, but my memorisation skills have never been great - for anything. It seemed like once we got to times tables, they were then all we did. For years. Years, just repeating tables of numbers, until we got to 14ish and got told 'no you don't need to remember that, just do it on a calculator'. Of course I felt that maths was stupid and not for me. Thankfully I had some inspiring teaching in my parents (not the school system) and they slowly got me to be interested enough in maths outside of the classroom for this feeling to diminish by the time I was 17/18, but the focus on 'kids have got to memorise their times tables' was absolutely the biggest factor in my not going down the direction of maths or science as a career.

[@JimAllen-Persona]

Often in the States, the students know more than their parents. The one excuse I’ve heard over and over again is: you’ll never need to know this because you’ll never use it. It’s let generations of kids off the hook. Last I paid attention: California wanted to remove the requirement of Algebra for graduation. Insane.

[@westlondonchorus-formerlyc240]

Keep parents out of it! They're a major part of the problem, not understanding the different way their children are now being taught at school. "This isn't how I was taught this at school - not that I was any good at maths!" Two statements that might in some way be connected!

[@aboodwadi2617]

Math is a depressing word

[@kittytam1545]

Meth is not....Hahaha

[@lukas6538]

Everyone in school is taught at the same style and speed, and everyone has different way of learning and speed of comprehension. In my case, I failed, either because, I wasn't interested in the subject and or I didn't understood how it can be applied to the real world. Now that I'm older, I'm starting to enjoy Maths and can see how its used in things all around us.

[@MsSpiffz]

A lot of this seemed to assume that maths = arithmetic. Everyone needs arithmetic, but there is an awful lot of stuff taught as maths that most people will never need. So why don't we teach everyone arithmetic, along with numerical lifeskills, like being able to read a bank statement or a pay slip, and leave maths for those students who will actually need it for further study?

[@anotheridiotontheinternet6136]

Hence why I actually like the two tiers of a level maths: the normal course and core maths. I just wish they'd make core maths compulsory for all, not just those who pick it. Other types of maths like pure, stats etc. can be picked on top. A bit like the US's separate maths classes, except that they actually teach the useful things like you said.

[@nrbudgen]

This is a very interesting video. I attended a boys-only grammar school in the 60s. For me, maths was a nightmare. As it was only fifteen years after the end of the war there were quite a few masters, especially for maths, who were underqualified or even unqualified. As mentioned in the video the whole school curriculum was a relic of the early years of the 20th century - very inflexible and with heavy emphasis on rote learning. The style of teaching was such that either that one understood the subject matter or not, with no middle ground, because our masters were barely able to explain the core principles well, if at all. I struggled with it constantly, never understood calculus or statistics and eventually managed to pass AO level maths because I wasn't good enough to take it at A level. Ironically my two sons found the subject easy and interesting, one going on to receive a PhD! I am now in my seventies and have never had a problem with 'basic' maths/arithmetic and have never needed to use an equation since my teens.

[@dugebuwembo]

I had a great tutor whose approach was to demystify the subject with a structured approach that built a foundation based on the core principles through practice. Some teachers are terrible at teaching maths.

[@MrJdebest]

If you don't understand percentage % , how would even know the impact inflation would have on your life. Everyone should understand the miracle of compound interest to maximize savings and avoid expensive loans.

[@user-dy7bv3qs4j]

But most people including politicians prefer the miracles of financial leverages including very expensive loans to grow personal wealth, business, market and economy.

[@skyandthemoon]

Percentages are taught in GCSE maths

[@erongi233]

There seem to be at least two reasons for this. One is that the pay for maths teachers is still lower than for other jobs available to people with maths skills. Secondly it is necessary to learn maths in a largely linear fashion, one thing leading onto another . Chinese students at 16 or 17 are 2 or three years ahead of UK students as I discovered in teaching in Nanjing.

[@warrenrandall6936]

I agree with the idea of separating core Maths from more academic. The core Maths would be for those students wanting to leave at 16 and who need to understand percentages, fractions, basic arithmetic etc. whilst the extended version would be for those wanting to take academic subjects at University for which most will never use trigonometry or solve quadratic equations unless they pursue teaching or academic careers. I think the problem is that in many interesting jobs, the ones the UK were pioneers in, but are now beaten by other countries, these advanced topics of Maths are required. The number of jobs, in the UK, requiring such knowledge is limited. My prediction is that Computer Science will dominate the job market in the future and IT courses will be more important than Maths at school. Companies will recruit globally and at the moment our students are at a disadvantage.

[@coverupper1354]

Good computer sceince degrees require good maths

[@dinozawr3317]

@@coverupper1354no Software engineers don’t use calculus or discrete math even if learned it in college

[@mashedpotatoes686]

@@dinozawr3317depends where you work. nobody would trust a software engineer who didnt know discrete maths to write any kind of safety critical system, for example

[@TheLucanicLord]

You can't leave at 16 though.

[@ice4142]

"students who want to leave at 16"? Student/children are too young to make that decision and therefore limit their potential by not being exposed to other aspects of maths. As a man in the film I feel that separating maths in two subjects will create a two tier education system, like we used to have with o-levels and cse, and the division is more likely to be along socio-economic lines rather than ability. I'm not saying I want our children taught like in China for example but it does show that children are capable of learning these concepts in the right environment. We should arbitrarily limit what they can learn.

[@BarryPiper]

I struggled with math as a teenager, and didn't start grasping it until i saw a practical application for it. Now that I'm a math teacher, I try my best to make sure that every lesson I teach comes with a practical real-life problem that students can solve with it.

[@BobRoss-uq2wu]

The problem isn’t that people aren’t learning a level maths, the issue is that nobody is learning gcse maths. Rishi’s plan to force people to study for harder qualifications while not having the easier ones is like teaching someone maths in Spanish, there’s a huge catchup they have to make and there’s no support for it. The change you need is in the earlier years of secondary school, it is way too easy until gcses and has no practical application.

[@oliver9541]

I failed gcse English, just about passed maths. Recently got into imperial college London for my masters. Don’t let your grades define who you are.

[@1nbp]

imperial 🤢 (i say this as a student there, too)

[@oliver9541]

@@1nbp Why? It's one of the worlds leading institutions. 😂

[@akikabanu5885]

@@oliver9541 may i ask what you got for a levels?

[@nomarxistspls90]

Yeah I only got a C in my math gcse and am a math major at UCL :). In fact I far, FAR preferred the A-level content as gcse was full of nonsense to be honest. There needs to be a big reform of the gcse math curriculum.

[@scuttsproductions]

Sometimes the reason why maths can be so difficult, challenging and daunting is because, sometimes it's the way it's taught and not everyone learns the same way as everyone else. This is why I do think a radical reform of the education system needs to be sorted out and addressed. But also, I don't think anyone has ever thought about this concept, as to why some people don't understand maths even into adulthood. That some or a lot of people can have what's called Dyscalculia, which is Dyslexia's lesser-known sibling. Dyscalculia (Mathematics) - Dyslexia (Reading & Writing) Dyscalculia symptoms can include but are not limited to. Typical symptoms include: *Difficulty counting backwards. *Difficulty remembering 'basic' facts. *Slow to perform calculations. *Weak mental arithmetic skills. *A poor sense of numbers & estimation. * Difficulty in understanding place value. *Addition is often the default operation. *High levels of mathematics anxiety. This can or could be a neurological condition in the brain that again, can or could be the culprit and as to why certain people struggle with mathematics as a whole, not just the basics. But the question is, where do you go to get diagnosed if you do have dyscalculia and how much would it cost?

[@The-J]

Sounds like me. Failed maths even after retakes.

[@skyandthemoon]

If your doing really bad in maths the most they will do is move you down to the bottom set and make you take the foundation paper they think anyone even people with dyscaculia will be able to pass and all they really care about is people being able to pass but this doesn't address the underlying issue of people finding maths hard especially if it's linked to a learning disability and then this will go on to affect people in their adult life

[@tomspoors768]

Coles' 'Cognitive bullying' is a telling remark that says well what I've been thinking. Forcing children to revisit topics that they've failed in without examining why they've failed. The belief that the system is good, the failures are bad and not that the system itself is, at the least, inappropriate if not harmful.

[@Morphed626]

Separating maths into two subjects called academic and core is a brilliant idea

[@gabscar1]

I think everyone should do "core" and then have the option for "abstract" which I assume would comproise pure and applicable math', then an option to do business math' which focuses on math' for accounting, finance, economics, etc.

[@Pigcogames]

What this video doesn't seem to show is GCSE maths already has foundational and higher, and if you look at foundational maths papers it is basic numeracy.

[@111Econ]

Maths is maths.

[@TankEnMate]

A good idea as long as we don't wind up with a two tier system that leave some permanently disadvantaged.

[@MeiinUK]

@@TankEnMate : It is already a two tier system and we know that too. And we already have seen this as well. The data rearrangements have set the stones into motion... and China has done the same too. Into a 3 tier structure within a society. (I suppose this is done, getting ready to integrate India, isn't it ?).... Devolution wasn't based on actual votes. And Mr Blair is already sitting inside an organisation... another typical political tier.. at.. what would've been the UN level. Maybe the supra-national model of the EU. That is where he seems to be sitting within. And the same with Mr Clegg too, under Meta's restructure. Like, we don't know that the society has been rolled upwards politically ? Cos we DO. That is the thing. We DO.

[@novalinnhe]

I absolutely loved the interview with Professor Coles! He was so engaging and enthusiastic about his subject, and I completely agreed with him about giving students who perhaps don't 'seem' like they would enjoy maths, at least the opportunity to look at and try different areas of the subject which they may actually end up enjoying and having fun with. That being said, I also really loved the idea of creating two different subjects - Functional Maths and 'Academic' Maths - in line with the English Literature and English Language subjects which we currently have in schools. Perhaps they could be named slightly differently, such as 'Practical Mathematics' and 'Creative Mathematics', to interest students more and prevent a class bias? And, just as with English Language and English Literature, both routes should be taught to all children (as Professor Coles notes) to ensure that those in worse-off areas are not left behind. Fantastic documentary FT, this really got me thinking about and interested in maths again! Thank you!

[@samirhussain458]

Aged 25 now, growing up in the UK and going through the secondary school education system you would always hear from your fellow students during mathematic class "what is the point of all of this?", "how will this make me money?", no one really saw maths and education in general a way of improving their lives, especially when you grow up in a rough area. Sadly, I experienced this all too well until Year 10 and 11, the final 2 years of my secondary school education, where my future depended on those GCSE grades and it was most likely because of the teaching and also being from one of the worst secondary schools in the UK. Fortunately, during those final 2 years, new math teachers were specially hired to reform the schools mathematics department and they really sparked my love and interest for mathematics and science. Now I have a BEng in Mechanical Engineering and an MSc in Robotics. I do believe this is all down too disparity in educational quality and resources in different regions in the UK, teaching quality, and not actually teaching students why this is useful and how it can applicable to many different parts of life.

[@ivfchic3316]

I really loved maths then got put into the higher set in secondary school. Our teacher was a bully and really scary. I know I can do maths and can learn anything (I def have a growth mindset) but he really put me off. You can't fear kids into learning. Teachers need to teach all subjects in primary and I feel there should be specialist maths teachers like P. E. Teachers.

[@AlexBaldwinFTW]

Found this really interesting, as someone who was always bad at maths and definitely has mental scars from resits. I use math so much more daily as an adult than I ever thought I would, and I was always sad how much my brain struggled with maths since I love science and physics.

[@ShapeyFiend]

They should put a bit of programming into primary school curriculum. My son was learnt boolean algebra (which I don't really understand) off CodeSpark as a 7 year old without really being aware he was doing maths at all it was just a game to him. When I did first three years of secondary school in Ireland everybody had to do Business Studies which taught you basic bookkeeping, personal finance, enterprise finance, economics etc. I'm not very good at accounting but I'm self employed and can't avoid it so I'm glad to have been made persevere with it.

[@ayoCC]

to be honest, why not actually have an hour of a videogame IN SCHOOL Pay like a developer market rate, maybe someone will do it for 100k a year to just be a full time educational software developer. While at it, pay a studio 200k a year to develop educational media, like 3d animations and do not stop developing, and just update them yearly to be more concise and make multiple versions and gather statistics from students what they most struggled with. Make schools do polling on educational quality to their students, like what they're struggling with and troubleshoot. All things we learn are made of smaller, fairly understandable parts. The problem is we might miss parts, or didn't get enough practice to apply the knowledge intuitively. The worst part is how in schools, it's easy to miss just one important sentence to knowing what the hell is going on. Then you're done on that topic.

[@xx-wp3mq]

​@@ayoCCSoftware like RM maths has been used in schools since I was a kid. I'm now 25. It's not new and that doesn't work either. "Gamifying" a boring task doesn't suddenly make it fun for most.

[@ayoCC]

@@xx-wp3mq I think it just isn't done well enough. I guess gamifying doesnt work, but making it intuitive by showing it in multiple different ways would be. It's been a long time since I wrote that comment but for example, I really got the hang of how to use formulas and algorithms when using excel to make a formula. I think it's great for the immediacy of seeing results and seeing different parts of the formula change as you put in numbers. We used to use ti84 calculators and they sucked for me because the functions were always hidden behind some arbitrary menu as well, it was like having to learn a recipe to use the device for anything. If something akin to excel could replace it where you just put in formulas and link them together and just be more computer like since that's what's the industry standard is right now, I'm sure people will perform better during those phases. Side note... Also, it should be abolished for teachers to teach a formula written different than in a formula collection, or at least give one lesson to what it means. You're supposed to be able to use the collection to help you not need to memorize long formulas and just use them because you know how to use them... But then they're written with strange symbols that were not even taught. The solution was always "just learn it by heart" which.. fine, but I don't think that's the point of having practical mastery. In university I got a printed collection that actually had the formulas written as we were taught so we could actually make use of it. I didn't do math mainly so thankfully I just had to do the basic one year stuff

[@ayanverma5746]

Getting an asian prime minister looks like a good bet for learning MATHS

[@johnorchard4]

I remember that as a 12 year old being introduced to 'modern maths'. There were all sorts of things included in the curriculum that I have used as an adult. It was such a shame, and such a missed opportunity for the school and teachers, that none of the practical real-world applications for the concepts were explained at the time. For example, we were taught to work in binary. Despite the fact that we had a visit to the computer department of a very large international business, no-one took the opportunity to link the lessons in binary with computers. I think there was some throw-away comment in one lesson about how computers used binary - but that was it! No expansion about procedural decision-making in a yes-no or positive-negative systems - that was all left for the penny dropping moment years later as an adult. I started secondary school in 1966! Little has changed regarding the outcomes of either numeracy or literacy in schools in the interceding period.

[@notverydeep9726]

Weirdly, one of my most memorable early experiences of directly using maths I had learned consciously in the real world, was when as a student having worked for a small travel company, I got cheap passage on QE2 across the atlantic. Each day there was a sweepstake on how far we had sailed mid day to mid day at a dollar a go. A screen in the cabin gave me the mid-day position and that a 10 am the next day, when the entry had to be handed in. A bit of trigonometry and a little extrapolation and I won two different days, netting around $200 extra spending money! I agree that making maths as close to relatable 'real world' problems is key, especially in the tricky GCSE years...

[@PaddyK1999]

Really liking all the comments here talking about personal experience with maths in school. I felt very insecure about my ability in maths for a long time. By GCSEs I worked hard to achieve a B (thanks also to the support from my parents). I wanted to carry this onto A Level but the pace of work was dizzying and the teacher seemed to think a B wasn’t good enough to keep up with the class - changed my subject after two weeks. Maths is always something I want to get better at as an adult but it’s difficult to know where to begin! Perhaps other adults in the same situation would be interested if there was a program that catered for this (around work).

[@mrjoe5292]

I largely flunked out of school due to mental health issues. I've looked into improving my skills as an adult. Khan Academy has been recommended to me several times. It starts at a very low level and increases in difficult the way a curriculum would, so you can find your level of knowledge and work up from there at your own pace. It's free too, which is always nice :)

[@user-uc1lf6wo8i]

Proud of being thickos

[@skyandthemoon]

Yea now you need a 7 (A) to do a level maths but I understand it maths in a levels is something else compared to GCSE maths

[@scrumptious9673]

Learning is a journey from the cradle to the grave. Keep on learning, even if it’s just stuff you enjoy.

[@P--B]

Major contributing factor to Brexit

[@rodmarker2071]

spot on ... cost of logistics

[@wft15]

If brexit was implemented properly, we wouldn't be spending £8 million a day on illegals. Now, if all that money went to the British public, like it should - well, you do the maths.

[@benwilliams1172]

I am a bricklayer and I don't have a maths qualification , being self employed i soon realised that maths was fundamental in every thing I did . so I had to learn maths to be able to do my job properly and to be able to work out what I earned as well as what I was owed by the person that I sub-contracted to . once this was mastered I became more confident with maths ,and that it was not a taboo subject[FINANCIAL REWARD]. one day i was asked to give a lecture to 2 groups school children aged 12 at a newly built school about being a bricklayer and what it involves. OH MY , how am i going to do this! ANSWER use buildings and materials to learn maths. i pointed out to the children a gable end made of bricks, and said if i had to stack out enough bricks to build it how many bricks would i need. using the bricks as a visual aid i said its a triangle ,and to work out the area is half base times the height. so if the base is 20 bricks long and the height is 10 bricks high lets work it out. we did this and then we worked out how many times a person would have to climb the ladder to get the bricks up there. so one example led to another ,and so forth. when i had finished entertaining the 2 groups of children a teacher approached me and said you ought to consider teaching. then she said i shall be using a lot of what you have imparted in my lessons. a child will always learn more when they can SEE maths , than when it is just numbers on paper.

[@redandro10]

I am generally more centre-left in general and find myself at odds with some conservative policies. But I must agree on this one. I have lived, studied and worked in 4 countries in total. I was utterly shocked at the math level or quantitative capability of my British colleagues in the UK. They could barely interpret basic charts/graphs properly, let alone do standard analysis using Excel. These are the things that I learned in early secondary school.

[@Andrew-rc3vh]

I think it is useless teachers myself. If the teachers don't have a clear understanding of maths then they can't teach it. That teacher interviewed just had a whole bookshelf of pop maths books, i.e. dumbed down rubbish.

[@duck4834]

Ask a mathematician what the problem is and they will all come up with the same answer: it's because the teachers themselves are not good at maths. How many teachers can derive the quadratic formula from memory? Fewer than one percent

[@nomarxistspls90]

A math teacher in a high school does not need to remember the proof of the formula. It is irrelevant for those kids to learn and would just confuse most of them.

[@exoticeditz8863]

⁠@@nomarxistspls90 idk if you’re British but speaking from experience yes they do 😭 higher tier maths students are required to memorise it + the quadratic formula. I remember my old teacher kept us behind lunch until we would recite it by heart!!

[@nomarxistspls90]

@@exoticeditz8863 I am doing a math degree at UCL, and yes I am British. The quadratic formula is piss easy to memorise but that’s not my point. My point is that gcse students should not, and are not required to memorise/understand the PROOF (derivation) of the quadratic formula.

[@TeslaPixel]

​@@nomarxistspls90He said teachers, not students. The difference being the idea that can you really teach something if you don't know how it works? Teachers wielding and teaching black boxes is is silly and unlikely to produce good outcomes.

[@exosproudmamabear558]

Math stays with you throughout your life. I gave a break for like 7 years after my uni graduation and information came to me as easy as it is when I needed and just 1 month of study was enough for a good score while some others struggled even with 1 year of study. My father is a mechanical engineer for example who changed his job with a complete math irrelevant job and still his base is better than my mother who only have seen math in high school. You forget things, that's for sure, but it still affects many things and stays with you somewhat.

[@jackiecornwall9160]

Let's separate Maths from Arithmetic. We all need the 4 operations and an understanding of fractions and percentages. Other stuff, not so much. Teachers will resist this, though, out of professional pride!

[@hezarfen777]

My working class grandfathers needed more than in their later professional life (specialized vocational jobs where they each rose to leading positions). How are you to know what kind of mathematical basis you need later?

[@NoTimeForCheats-pg2lu]

11 years in forced education and the majority of the country is innumerate, so what the hell does Rishi think another two years will achieve...

[@JA-ti3wd]

A local hospital where I grew up was Selly Oak Hospital so I was taught SOHCAHTOA as 'Selly Oak Hospital Can Always Help The Odd Accident' and to this day I still use that.

[@MeiinUK]

Elementary. QED. Can't believe that somebody wrote that... Soh Cah Toa. lol.... Shame. I can't even remember how it goes now. lol... Sine Cosine, Tan .. Oh dear. :) This is what happens when big bang goes ahead... lol.. You lose the scientists.

[@lornabrooks3707]

I have worked in 3 primary schools for over 15 years. One of the key problems is that the earliest introduction for children to maths is via arithmetic. I keep making a fuss about how many teachers, and almost all children at age 11, do not understand the rules about how our numbering system works. To test this, ask an 11 year old child WHY the hundreds column is the hundreds column, and I guarantee that very few can tell you (and very few teachers come to that), but yet this is an application of one of the fundamental rules from which everything flows. Without understanding this rule, teachers tell children that they have to use column values in arithmetic and so make it so much harder - children very early on therefore think that they are no good at maths and get turned off. Dienes apparatus reinforces this nonsense - the best place for that is the bin. Zoltan Dienes has really buggered teaching arithmetic! One of my other bugbears is that teachers tell children that multiplication is "repeated addition"! They then wonder why children get really dismayed when dealing with fractions of amounts.

[@CTimmerman]

2 times 1/2 an apple = 1 apple.

[@MrArukimasu]

Genuine question: what is the issue with using Dienes blocks and teaching place value? I’m not a maths specialist but I have always been told that this Dienes blocks are excellent for building conceptual understanding of PV.

[@shelleyphilcox4743]

@lornabrooks3707 I actually remember finding Dienes blocks quite helpful when I was in primary back in the 70s/80s, and we also did a lot of arithmetic and a mental arithmetic test every friday morning and our times tables drilled into us...not in a horrible way, just very frequent practice. I think kids 'get it' using different methods, one size does not fit all. That said I find some of the current methods bewilderingly lengthy, and not that helpful compared to how I learned. Similarly I couldnt understand when my children were at school the reading method of 'recognising word shapes', which has such limited value, rather than spending time on being able to read the letter, know the sounds and the rules, and build every word through that instead. I taught my children to read, ignoring school and using the methods from my mum and school, and they were the best readers in their school years. I remember my sons teacher telling me he didnt know his alphabet yet, she has pointed to A and asked him what it was, he responded with the name of the letter...she actually wanted him to make the sound, but that isnt what she asked him for! I prompted her to be clearer in her question and he then read several simple words to demonstrate he knew the names, sounds and could string them together! That was a depressing experience, even though we laughed about it later. I think the biggest problem with maths is that some teachers dont have the flexibility to approach explaining things in different ways, and the system and time pressures mean some children dont consolidate what they have learned and lose their confidence. Despite being on an accelerated maths programme, doing my O level a year early and in one year, that particular teacher was not very supportive, unlike my previous teacher who almost got me to love maths. It destroyed me a bit, even though I passed, I was burnt out and failed the AO, because my confidence was wrecked...would have been better to have two years and get a better grade and still have some confidence and enthusiasm left! I still have nightmares sometimes that I sit in my exam, open the paper and cannot do a single question because I cant remember anything. However, I got my O level, and later in life regained my confidence, did a degree that required decent maths skills, but ended up doing something entirely different and having to develop another range of knowledge because my job included budgeting, finance and accounts work.

[@westlondonchorus-formerlyc240]

Modern primary maths teaching uses 'manipulatives' such as counters, cubes or even Dienes blocks all the time.

[@westlondonchorus-formerlyc240]

Modern primary maths teaching now spends a lot more time looking at the number system and place value. But you're right, not understanding place value is behind most blockages at all ages.

[@juliazhang8612]

The norms and stereotyping around maths in classrooms is so influential. I'm a Chinese high school senior who spent two years in a public elementary school in China, then nine years in an American international school abroad, finally three in a Chinese international school. How students and teachers percieve how difficult maths should be, who should be good at maths and who should struggle... all this influences individual motivation definitely to an extent greater than hard requirements.

[@jimmelton]

I used to be one of those who claimed "I hate maths" and "I just can't do maths" throughout my entire childhood up until I started my A-Levels. I had always wanted to pursue Computer Science since I was young, and it wasn't until I had to pick my A-Level options that I realised Maths was a crucial aspect of the field. So I reluctantly decided to take the course, and now I'm currently studying Mathematics and Computer Science as my degree. I began to admire mathematics when I "forced" myself to be interested in it. In doing so I actually came to realise the importance of the field and how it can be applied to almost anything (especially in this digital era) in the real world. If it was up to me, I'd introduce more applications of mathematics into curriculums, as that's what truly showed me the elegance and significance of the subject, and ultimately induced me into pursuing my joint honours degree rather than just Computer Science.

[@radhikaberiwal9094]

the pass rate is 80%!!! The school I did my GCSE's from had almost 50% students with A and A* only. I think like 2 or 3 kids failed 💀💀

[@cjjk9142]

Ye idk where they got 39% will fail from. There’s just no way that true

[@you-know-who9023]

The educational divide should be tackled in the UK so that compulsory education to age 18 is not a sticking plaster.

[@MalayaC-tn2rl]

British maths teachers have a tendency to skip important steps and assume their students knowledge. That's the problem.

[@markherbert4723]

totally agree. Norm-referenced exams are always going to leave behind a fraction of the cohort. A student who could have got a pass in one year may end up with a fail in another year just due to the rest of the cohort, difficulty of paper, other factors, etc. For basic skill such as numeracy and literacy then we should have criterion reference exams. You tick off enough of the parts then you pass. Just like a driving test.

[@wobblynl1742]

yup data literacy is important, especially in a world getting flooded with fake news

[@NineInchTyrone]

Teach math to the students who want to and can learn math. Remove disruptive students so learning can take place

[@kelly4187]

I actually think that a major barrier in schools is cultural. People are scared of numbers when they leave because they were scared of getting an answer wrong early in their first school years. I remember this vividly at school, and encountered it when I tutored and even when I lectured maths at university. Yes I agree of splitting the GCSE into two maths courses, but we also need to engender a culture where people can simply explore maths, and make mistakes, without feeling like this is "failure". Also, one criticism of this video: when you say that a third of children will get a 4 or below every year, this is because of how the exam board scales the results to the normal distribution. If every kid this year gets a result that would be 7 or above on least years paper, then a third would still fail because all of the results would be scaled so that a third get a 4 or lower by the exam board. It's a weird system.

[@liz9147]

Given our then Prime Minister couldn't understand graphs and exponentials during the COVID crisis, maybe future decision-makers could prove their numeracy in debates? We deserve well-educated, thoughtful, literate and numerate leaders.

[@MrEzMs]

Math is the language of reality, if a nation can’t count how would they know if they are being deceived or robbed!

[@ibtehaj95]

I'm a software engineer, formerly an electrical engineer, and even after getting an A, both in O-Level as well as A-Level, I still feel I'm not good at math. I struggled really badly with integration, as well as transformations (back and forth with the frequency domain), statistics and vectors. It was only after failing to find a job in Embedded Systems that I realized my calling lay truly in programming, which I had aced throughout my Bachelor's I'm doing fine in life :D

[@HackedPC]

nobody asked

[@no.7893]

I think a large part of the problem is with teachers. For most of my secondary education I was stuck with math teachers that were old gits who clearly didn't give a damn about teaching nor about mathematics, and who seemed to hold a great resentment for the classes they taught. As a result I grew to despise the subject. Then in my 3rd year I got a new maths teacher who was very enthusiastic not only about maths but about seeing to it that we students were actually taking the information on board and understand things fully. I slowly began to unlearn my hatred for maths and actually quite enjoyed it. Sadly I had to leave school with almost no attendence in my 4th year due to health complications and ever since I've been wishing that like many of my other subjects I could've kept going. Thankfully Khan Academy has helped me brush up on a lot of the subjects of maths that I was still not very good at and I hope to continue learning. at the age of 13 I never would've thought that I would be willfully studying mathematics in my own time for my own enjoyment... That's the difference a good teacher makes.

[@Eiko286]

The kids in my classes just wanted to mess about, their parents didn't care about them learning so either did they. All I ever heard was "what's the point", "I can't be bothered". The teachers were fine only nobody would ever listen.

[@stevew3817]

As with many subjects, schools (at least the ones I went to) don't teach things relative to real world use-cases. For example, I remember spending much time learning about percentages.... however, this was never overlayed onto real financial problems like loans, mortgages, tax, profits etc. English would have us writing essays about books, but we were never shown how to write a CV. Physical education would teach us how to play cricket or baseball.... but never told us how to live a healthy lifestyle by regular exercising routines we can integrate into everyday life. Biology would show us how to dissect a frog, but never were we introduced to basic first aid. For me, all of my life skills had to be gained as an adult, and many of my school skills have remained unused.

[@novalinnhe]

An excellent comment!

[@emilwandel]

I was taught sexual health, the immunesystem, genetics in biology. I als was taught about cells, trees, the animal kingdom (insects, birds, ...) There was a separate first aid course. I was taught how to write CVs, how to make minute meetings, how to prepare meetings, how to give speeches (dreadful presentations). In sport I was taught many things you mentioned, but we always did excercises to warm like stretching, and what you would now call callisthenics beforehand. We also learned to move in a team. Percentages were taught far far to little in school also we applied in other subjects like history, economics, geography. But these teachers were bad at math to and didn't taught us how to read the data properly. In chemistry we were taught about acids and all sort of materials to have a foundational understanding if we wanted to understand a real life problems. Sadly little adaptations were done. In physics we learned Newtons laws applied to car accidents and a lot of applied math here. These teachers were good enough in math to actually deepen our understanding of math. The real complaint about school that I have is that the miss to teach of skills a citizen must have: How to do taxes, how to sue a company who tries to rip you off, how politician manipulate the public before elections, how to find something you love and be productive in society. school is sadly not a place to find passions.

[@Eric-zo8wo]

0:16: 🧮 Poor math skills in the UK education system are affecting both students and adults, leading to a lack of qualifications and low numeracy levels. 4:18: 🧮 Math can be embedded in various subjects, helping students understand and apply mathematical concepts in real-life situations. 8:38: 📚 The pandemic has widened the achievement gap in math between deprived and well-off students, making it harder to tackle the national problem of numeracy. 12:51: 📚 The speaker is concerned that the current education system in the UK is not preparing students adequately for the future. 17:15: 💰 Improving financial literacy for all age groups is crucial, as many young people struggle with understanding payslips and navigating irregular income. 21:24: 👥 Teachers are an incredible asset in this country, but there are societal ideas that influence the curriculum and assessment, leading to a disconnect with students. 24:59: 📚 Mathematics education is in need of a new curriculum to bridge the numeracy gap and address the challenges posed by climate change and other global issues. Recap by Tammy AI

[@Fallout-pv5lr]

Aerospace engineering student here: I believe why a lot of students find it hard to learn maths is honestly being demotivated with why they’re learning the subject. In schools we’re told it’s important but even if someone doesn’t want to go to university and instead wants to be a carpenter or take on some other trade, you still need to use maths. With the lack of motivation you’ll fall behind in a subject that requires you to build previous knowledge on each other. This leads to failure so it’s important to keep that motivation.

[@davidlloyd3116]

I got O level maths and A level physics in the 80s, failed my maths test at university (to level the playing field for microbiology, nursing, biochemistry and nutrition students). I got quite good on the 10 week intense maths course, just due to practice and knowing the rules.

[@honkhonk8009]

Math is exponentially more difficult when you dont know how its used. Linear Algebra is considered extremely hard, but I found it insanely easy imo. Exclusively because I knew how it was used, and saw how it was applied. But give a course without that direct of an application, and its almost impossible

[@lauriethefish2470]

"exponentially more difficult" hmmm

[@Keykhosrau]

@@lauriethefish2470 Yea, as in it gets super hard the more stuff you don't know how to do when it comes to math.

[@CatBigCat]

I am quite confused by this video and seems they mix up different topic and concept in an unorganized way. So what is the problem of having a problem with poor maths? How improving the maths results would improve the society? Does maths here means pure maths or numerical skills or data analysis skills or budgeting skills or comprehension skills? Which skills are really needed in the everyday work, everyday life by the everyday citizen? Is it really necessary for everyone to receive and pass the advanced maths?

[@xavier4260]

The maximum math need to for the everyday is GCSE level 4 or even 3, idk why they are making a big deal out it. I did my A level last year, chem math and bio. Math I have not used like one bit, and chem makes stuff interesting like everyday items. I can relate it to chemistry(ironing clothes cus the heat breaks up the hydrogen bonds which cuase chloths to wrinkle ), thanks to my teacher 😅. Biology I haven't used but does help to know how the whole body works and stuff, so yh math is really not that important for the general public unless your going for a career that needs a deep understanding of math, economics, computer, sciences , engineering and them degrees

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

Education is mental exercise. Just because you don't use maths 🔢 in later life, doesn't mean the increased logical thinking and ability to infer will not be useful. Especially in the unconscious, who develops even if you are unconscious of it (kind of obviously). Plus, it makes you more able to understand what mathematics users are doing. Education is to increase your utility 🧰 value in human resources. If you don't practice inferring stuff through algebra, you will be less good at inferring stuff through cost benefit analyses too. Or not even use them and just be often wrong about what you and others should be doing.

[@rufdymond]

There is a big problem in this country, with many people thinking it’s OK to be poor at maths, something they would never admit or say about reading and writing. Several years ago I did an evening class in IOS programming for the iPhone, it was just something to do in the evening. At the time I was in my late 40s and hadn’t done classroom maths for years. What quickly became apparent was how many people struggled with the maths in the course - this was even more shocking as many in the class were in their low to mid 20s. We are talking about linear algebra here ‘which is stuff I was taught in high school. Things were so bad that the lecturer had to actually alter the course structure. As someone from Poland, he did remark to me in a private conversation that he was constantly shocked with how much people struggled with maths in the U.K. According to him, this was stuff most high school students in Poland wouldn’t have a problem with….we’re doing something very wrong in the U.K. when it comes to teaching maths. Having said all that….most people will never need to use linear algebra. All most people need are the basics, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, ratios, percentages etc. Those things will be enough to get people through life….the fact many people cannot even do those things is unacceptable.

[@lostinmuzak]

UK education standard is low in all subjects not just math, unless you can afford to send you children to private schools. This has been going on for over 59 years.

[@shelleyphilcox4743]

@lostinmuzak Yet all the international data says the opposite. I suggest you look at the OECD PISA rankings. The UK ranks 14th out of 80 countries, in the EU, only Ireland, Finland and Estonia outrank us. Australia and New Zealand are just a couple of points ahead. Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, small city states or countries outrank us, and Japan and South Korea. Canada is doing particularly well. However, if you think the UK has bad results and a bad education system, you clearly have not been around too much and are struggling yourself to interpret basic data which is freely available online.

[@demicdah]

If you get it working in England we would like to copy it. We have the same problems here in Germany

[@myasaee]

I'm all for that Financial Literacy Class, need more of it. Well done!

[@benkhan2908]

I believe we should return to teaching Arithmetic as in the olden days, then build on that to progress further. Seems like everyone has a new idea to confuse the students.

[@PLuMUK54]

I feel I should apologise in advance this is an issue that I feel strongly about, so this is a long comment There is an irony in Lord Baker saying that the system needs replacing. When he oversaw its introduction, the majority of teachers saw that it was flawed. It also annoys me that comparison is made with Asian countries. They are taught by rote. Individual thinking is discouraged. I've taught students from Korea, Japan, and China, whose parents were here for post-graduate courses. They had memorised whole text books, but I'm fairly sure that few of them would have coped with a question set in a different way. Probably the greatest strength of teaching in England is a willingness to think outside the box, to be imaginative, and to question what they have been taught. I was a teacher for 35 years, though not a maths teacher. However, I often used to cover for absent maths teachers. I used to get annoyed with the students at first, always asking for help, being unwilling to take their own decisions. One day, a thought struck me. I noticed, during a lesson with a lower set, where they were supposed to be answering questions on fractions, that the majority of the class simply could not visualise fractions. I decided to abandon the work set, and despite not being a maths teacher, I handed out some paper and scissors, which we then used to create concrete fractions. I was shocked that the class responded so well. They began doing calculations similar to the ones that they had seen in the textbook. They soon became enthusiastic to start the questions that they had been set, and I persuaded them to complete them all at home. A couple of days later, the class teacher came to ask me about the lesson as she did not understand why the whole class had achieved 90% or more on the work. She thought that I must have given them the answers. I didn't mind her thinking that we had cheated, but I was annoyed when she was surprised at the truth. It has to be said that part of the trouble with a lot of maths teachers is their complete inability to understand that not everyone is as numerate as they are themselves. They often make assumptions that everyone enjoys maths the same way that they do. As an outsider in the maths classroom, even though I am numerate, it was obvious to me that there was something wrong, not with the students, but with the way they were expected to do work that appears simple, but is difficult for them. I realised why, as they left the room, several of the class asked if I could be their maths teacher. After this experience, I never held back, but if they struggled I would take the set work down to something that they understood. As the video said, a huge problem is that students experience failure too much. I gave them a tiny success that made them feel that they were not stupid

[@DrHyPer]

What a legendary video! Props to FT as this is genuinely an extremely underrated subject which is soo true yet this is the first time I've heard someone discuss it

[@TheLucanicLord]

I couldn't imagine the Express doing it, somehow.

[@rachelsnee8926]

There's a famous story about the Canadian province of Quebec, who, concerned that their math scores were the lowest in the country, got together all the stakeholders (government, teachers, parents, universities, even students!) to try and work out what to do about it. Apparently they came up with all the usual things as discussed in this film - more math teachers, more time for math on the curriculum, more math homework, better training for math teachers, more resources, different teaching methods etc. but what they decided to do was none of those. Instead they introduced chess as a compulsory subject in the curriculum starting at kindergarten all the way to grade 12 (5-18+ year olds). Basically someone asked the question 'what thinking skills do our kids need in order to be good at math?' and answered it with the ability to problem solve in a step by step way, planning ahead but taking into account changes as they arose. The result was that within a few years they were at the top of the national math scores. Lots of countries include chess in the curriculum for that reason...

[@matek1324]

Ask a person, 'what is mathematics' and there is your answer. Students do not know what maths is but are being taught it... give a solid foundation of understanding before going into teaching equations and functions which the students do not even know what those things actually are.

[@Biologiehilfe]

Children and teenagers want to be challanged. If you lower the standards they will notice (and have for years) that they are being cuddled and will loose interest. You have to show them with actions that they have to perform at a certain level and help them along as they wrestle with ideas and concepts.

[@scottrobinson4611]

*Some children and teenagers want to be challenged. Not all kids want you to make them solve a trigonometry problem, or to find the roots of a quadratic equation. How out of touch can you be?

[@Biologiehilfe]

@@scottrobinson4611 Obviously I made a general statement that does not apply to each and every person. That much should be clear implicitly. Any helpful ideas on the actual topic? Have a nice day.

[@TeslaPixel]

​@@BiologiehilfeI don't think that applies to anywhere near the number you think it does. There are a huge amount of children who have parent-taught complacency learned from a very young age. Frankly you also presented no helpful ideas on the topic either.

[@jlewr]

Great film - just disappointing that this exclusively covered the English education system for 'the whole UK'. I'm sure Scotland's skills aren't particularly better but it'd be interesting to know more about any differences across the UK (both in results and how maths is taught).

[@faithlesshound5621]

When I took Ordinary Grade exams for the Scottish Certificate of Education in 1967, the easiest subject was Arithmetic, which we all took as well as Mathematics. Arithmetic covered the basic skills, plus calculations related to measurement (Imperial system) and money as well as the basics of statistics. Algebra, geometry and trigonometry were in the Mathematics syllabus. My understanding was that Arithmetic O-level was required by many employers, but it was not recognised by the Scottish universities. At that time there was a single portal of entry to the universities which involved having one's qualifications accepted by the Scottish Universities' Entrance Board. The SUEB did not count arithmetic. To get in they demanded O-level mathematics. I saw the down side of that with one of my schoolmates, a talented musician who should have gone on to study music at university but could not go after failing O-level maths three years running. He did eventually have a successful career as a music writer, but it can't have been as straightforward as it should have been. The music colleges in London saw that very problem 70 years earlier when they decided against joining the University of London on learning that their students would have to meet the university's general requirements for entry. That would have barred people with talents in one field from training in it merely because they did not have all-round academic skills. Nowadays we might see Disability Discrimination: why should the dyscalculic and dyslexic be denied education, when we can admit the deaf and blind? The other great difference between England and Scotland is the lack of the arts/science divide that we see in England when pupils give up one or the other for the last two years in the sixth form before they take (around) three A-levels. In Scotland university entrance used to be decided on the basis of the best five "Highers" (roughly equivalent to the old AS-levels in England) taken in the equivalent of the lower sixth (we did not use those terms) with no arts/science split. In the 1960's that meant that Scottish doctors and engineers would be familiar with Chaucer and Vergil while Scottish ministers and lawyers would understand calculus and the laws of motion.

[@shelleyphilcox4743]

I went through the English system, my sons through Scotland from end of Primary, but fortunately before the SNP had too much impact. Scotlands education system was excellent if you got your children into a good school, and fortunately my children were in one of the best state schools in the country, and the staff were very dedicated. Sadly, Scotland has dropped from being outstanding to just about average or below in the overall PISA rankings. Overall the UK ranked 14th in 2022/23 data, higher than the USA, every other EU country except Ireland, Estonia and Finland. Australia and New Zealand just a couple of points ahead, and Canada doing particularly well. Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Japan and South Korea hold the top positions. In reality in world ranking for education in the 5th/6th largest economy with a population of 68m people is pretty damn good if you are looking for a large pot of well educated people, with a relatively powerful economy, in a relatively efficient geographic area, because the UK is quite small.

[@savagepro9060]

SAD! This part of the world that gave us Isaac Newton, Ada Lovelace, George Boole, John Wallis, John Venn, Charles Babbage, Edmond Halley, Alan Turing, John Wallis, etc etc.

[@EdwinaTS]

It is incredible that Kenneth Baker the Education Secretary said that 😮 Mathematics is the most consequential methods of thinking that gave rise to the modern world and beyond! Yet he said that he had never had to use a quadratic equation since school which shows how irrelevant maths is and reading should be the key skill.