Why the "Worst" Violin Vibrato Advice is Actually Brilliant

[@clairepotter6975]

Maxim Vengerov says the key to vibrato, whether wrist or arm vibrato, is having a loose distal phalangeal joint. Some violinists can achieve that finger joint looseness with wrist vibrato, some with arm vibrato, some with combinations in between.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

He’s not the only one who says that, haha! It’s pretty standard vibrato training no matter your method of vibrato

[@The-E-Guy]

Dang man you are the reason im actually picking up my violin to actually practice outside of School activities, tryna to the vivaldi concerto in a minor 3rd movement

[@thecatofnineswords]

That piece is a significant milestone in our learning! Best wishes with your progress.

[@M_SC]

That’s hard but very fun when you can do it

[@Violinna]

What's interesting is that even though we *train* the finger to land back at the main pitch (as the highest point), there are actually real studies done of the great violinists, in which their vibratos were slowed down and analyzed by a machine tracking the oscillation. In reality, the vibrato in those studies always resulted to be AROUND the main pitch. I think this phenomenon happens due to the impulse of the motion in real time with the music. You demonstrated this very well toward the end of the video. Also, the term "wrist" vibrato is a bit of a misnomer... At least according to basic anatomy. It actually comes from the hand.. specifically, the joint that *connects* the end of the fingers to wrist bones. So sometimes for certain players, just visualizing it differently helps.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Interesting! I would say the vibrato I was demonstrating at the end with the 2nd mvt. of sibelius would be "around" the pitch, however as a rule for PRACTICING and learning to have full control over one's vibrato where that doesn't affect the center of pitch would be how I described it in the first part of the video. I've certainly found that practicing vibrato in this way has greatly improved my normal, wider vibrato. As for what to call "wrist" vibrato, if I really had to be specific about where the impetus of the vibrato originated I would call it thumb vibrato, haha. Always good to get your comments.

[@Violinna]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy yes, exactly. We PRACTICE it below the pitch for that reason. :)

[@AmericaisTheBabylon]

I think it has to do with your particular hand and wrist structure. I have basically no wrist, so wrist vibrato isn't a good option. It looks like my hand is attached to my arm! I don't have a prominent wrist, so getting the range of vibration enough to actually move my finger joint doesn't happen very well. My daughter has a longer wrist and can do wrist vibrato well but she prefers arm vibrato and will automatically default to arm vibrato if she isn't thinking about it. I had more tension with wrist vibrato on the thumb. If you can't do vibrato it is because you are tight on the thumb. You may not think this, but it 99% of the time is what is holding you up. You then need to realize that you're probably playing with way too much heavy handed pressure and you need to back off overall by playing easy repertoire and consciously remembering to press lightly and to constantly check your thumb pressure every few minutes. Arm is easier to get going for beginners anyways.

[@Thecarbolicsmokeball]

I think the point is that the pulse should come from the arm rather than the wrist. And depending on the player, that could look like a wrist or arm motion. I have what looks like a wrist vibrato but the pulse is actually from the arm. And if you watch Adam's performance of the Bruch violin concerto, there are loads of instances where his vibrato looks more like a wrist motion vibrato.

[@VerenaJ-m8x]

Why do you explain non stop with soooo much energy!? Greetings from Germany

[@gorillagorilla111]

testosterone? maybe the world is just full of different personality types 🤷‍♂️

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

It’s all presentation. I’m not actually that energetic in person

[@M_SC]

It’s kind of his thing. People like it

[@dreamfield92]

I don't see him saying "you should not do wrist vibrato", but more like stating his own preference on the matter. It is totally valid for a violinist to choose arm vibrato as the main method. Though, It is almost impossible to ONLY do arm vibrato and you'll probably end up with a mix of arm and wrist movement anyway

[@TaboraMusic]

It was weird because he seems to purposely vibrate badly to illustrate his point. But people who use wrist vibrato properly don’t sound anything like that. I suppose it’s like a straw-man argument.

[@patrickmanasco5905]

An example, still a bit of a straw man, but that’s exactly what it sounded like when I first tried it, and was nervous at first that I needed to get my arm into it so much to make it sound better since guitar never needed too

[@reivax5742]

I too question the theory that says that the perceived pitch is the highest frequency reached (the reason for only vibrating "down" here). I don't play the violin, I play the cello, and we certainly vibrate "around" the pitch. Another bit of evidence to support vibrating around the central pitch comes from electric guitarists. Whereas classical guitarists use a motion similar to cellists, along the length of the string, electric guitarists often also rely on motion perpendicular to the length of the string, back and forth, pulling on or "bending" the string. This means that they are vibrating only up if they are vibrating on a fretted note (because vibrating perpendicularly in either direction will raise the pitch), and up and down if the main pitch they are vibrating on has already been "bent into", i.e., is already the result of having bent a string. In either case, a professional guitarist will certainly deliver a pitch that the audience perceives as being "in tune". In any case, it would be interesting to visit the psychology department at some university to conduct experiments on perception to determine how the audiences perceive our vibrating on or bending the strings.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

A lot of guitarist have brought this point up, and I do think it’s a good point that is worth exploring more. As I mentioned to someone else, I think a big part of the difference between violin and guitar is one does vibrato on sustained notes, and the other doesn’t. Vibrating, briefly, a note that is immediately dying might have a different effect on the ear than a long sustained pitch. As for cello, I always, for some reason, find cellos to sound more out of tune than violins, but in a way that didn’t bother me. Perhaps the wider spacing on cello requires this approach to vibrato, whereas if violinists were taught the same, we’d develop the vibrato problems I outlined in the video. So, we are all taught, as violinists to vibrate down and then back up. However, as I demonstrated at the end, ultimately we do vibrate “around” the pitch slightly to produce other colors of vibrato. But this is MUCH narrower than what a cellist or bassist would do and our foundation is the precise, down-up vibrato to the original pitch.

[@M_SC]

Also the amount of movement of the finger needed to be off pitch for the violin is about 15 times smaller than on a guitar. As long as you play within the fret you’re ok I think

[@reivax5742]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Yes, classical guitarists are working with rapidly decaying notes, but notes on an electric guitar, at high volume, may last surprisingly long. As for cellos, maybe what you hear is that we're just sloppier on average than violinists 😁 As you point out, we have a lot more space to play with. Given the string length, maybe it's important to ensure that the range of pitch is not too wide, which would happen more easily on the violin. Thanks for the vids, btw, I enjoy them very much.

[@mattg6262]

I like your breakdown of coloring the vibrato by bending the top heaviness of the swing. Pablo Ferrandez is a grear cellist who advicates swinging past the base pitch for exactly that reason coloring and also projection. And just listen to the man's vibrato!

[@xokaizson]

You’re the reason why I’m prancing scales😭😭😭

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

@@xokaizson I think you meant practicing, and I’m very glad to hear that. But I do wonder. . . How would someone “prance” their scales?

[@xokaizson]

⁠@@MurphyMusicAcademyoh my fault yeah practicing but honestly you’re the reason I’ve gotten so much better at violin I’m mostly self taught and I’ve found that all the people I’ve watched on KZbin come no close to your videos🙏

[@emiliamrph]

Very good explanation! Thank you for the video

[@wilhelmviolinstudio]

Just what I needed to hear.

[@stephenstarr6388]

I play fretted and non-fretted instruments. When you play fretted guitar, you cannot slide down to a lower pitch in order to vibrato up. BUT ... millions of guitar players don't hear it as an intonation problem. OP, Please compare guitar vibrato with violin vibrato.

[@patrickmanasco5905]

There are videos comparing fretted to fretless violins in lots of different ways

[@paulandrews8140]

What's your thoughts on a lot of players not vibrating the note until sounded? Something I've seen and heard top players adopting more.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Do you mean delayed vibrato? I think it depends, but generally I was taught not to do that. But there might be times where that works for the type of music you are playing

[@paulandrews8140]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy Yes I was told the same thing but why do we hear it adopted by many players regardless of repertoire? Maybe a topic for further discussion.

[@MrUswestshing]

Finally found the answer😂professionaly 🎉 thank you

[@yaniquemado8435]

Awesome video! Thanks for going over vib so thoroughly and succinctly! Any chance you have a list of tonebase content you’d personally recommend? I’ve never gotten into but have definitely been curious about that platform for a while!

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Besides the interview with Han-Gorski, the lessons with Grigory Kalinovsky and Pinchas Zukerman are excellent

[@radovanlorkovic3562]

Every kind pf vibrato is welcome in different situations, wrist vibrato is more discreet. Why exclude it?

[@Shrinksjp]

I cannot do any vibrato after 2 years of trying. I am on Suzuki book 7. I have tried everything my instructor has said to no avail.

[@SeanAnwalt]

Loosen up, lookup the vibrato practice Murphy suggests in one of his videos somewhere, and practice a ton. Eventually, you'll get it. It just takes time.

[@alyssert1743]

Yes. I don’t know what you have tried, but my teacher had me do the motion slowly (it will mess up your posture, so you need to make sure it’s consistant) and steadily to a metronome, and slowly increase the tempo until it becomes a real vibrato. Whether you do arm vibrato or wrist vibrato is up to you and your instructor. It will feel weird at first but it would be more strange if it didn’t feel weird. It jusst comes with repitition, you’ll get it!

[@keithcook5663]

Keep trying. Watch others. Place the scroll gently against the wall and try it. One day it will all click, kind of like the 1st time you ride a bike without training wheels

[@xinouwei]

thank you dear good sir!

[@mellissadalby1402]

There really is no "One size fits all", everyone has slightly diffferent capabilities. I for one, might never be able to do Violin Vibrato due to my decades of Guitar Vibrato, which is at 90 degrees to the string rather than in the same axis as the string.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

True, but there are general principles that must be followed. I like to say there are about 5 ways to do things correctly, and a million ways to do thing incorrectly. I help my students use a variety of thumb and hand positions to help them find the ideal hand frame that allows for their best playing, but the principle of finding the most effective and ergonomic hand shape must be followed regardless of the thumb position

[@zaydacevedo9437]

I am not a violinist i am a guitar player and saying that vibrating up make the audience perceive the wrong note does not seem accurate. instruments such as the guitar are only capable of vibrating up and we do not have that issue of the audience perceiving the higher pitch as the primary note.

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

Another guitarist also brought this point to my attention. Why there is a difference between the perception of the vibrato between the instruments I can't say for sure, but I would tend to think it's due to the how vibrato is used on each instrument. On guitar, you don't have sustained tones and sustained vibrato. The moment the note sounds it begins to die, and so vibrato isn't going to last for a long time on any particular pitch. This may have an effect on the perception of the ear for the vibrato. In violin, however, we specialize in long, sustained notes. In early music, these were the only notes people tended to vibrate, actually. The perception of these notes being vibrated upwards does make the note sound sharp, and we are all taught to vibrate with a downward motion because of it. I find also that many opera singers with particularly wide vibratos obscure their pitch as well, so I do tend to think it's something to do with sustained pitches.

[@oxoelfoxo]

more lighting?

[@MurphyMusicAcademy]

@@oxoelfoxo I thought I did too much. My computer monitor isn’t the best and I can’t make out exactly how it looks all the time. When I watched it on the tv last night I thought it was too bright (I have an old, cheap tv as well. I don’t spend a lot of money on electronics, though I definitely need to get a better mic setup at some point)

[@oxoelfoxo]

@@MurphyMusicAcademy maybe more even lighting then? the right side was too shadowed. hope this channel grows quickly (and the academy) so you can do all the equipment upgrades your heart desires

[@celinahuezo5518]

I'm learning arm vibrato.

[@imegadrive]

Wrist vibrato is noob/beginner