Why Tierlists Don’t Matter (For Most People)

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Fighting Game Glossary: glossary.infil...

[@GekkoSquirrel]

Your browser is holding you back. Level up with Opera GX: operagx.gg/GekkoSquirrel

[@Maxler5795]

Were you paid for that exact statement, too? You making some bank Mr. Streamer?

[@absqrb]

But they provide me a great excuse for losing

[@edgelordmcgee966]

until you lose to a low tier

[@absqrb]

@@edgelordmcgee966 then you blame matchup inexperience

[@kusolp544]

​@@absqrbvalid

[@jotogoat]

@@absqrbthen you blame matchup experience, connection, something was covering the screen, something kept making you misinput, something kept distracting you, bad matchups despite them being a low tier, among other things

[@absqrb]

@@jotogoat monitor was actually off

[@2HalfSandwiches]

As a Baiken, I'm legally obliged to disagree with you, even if you're right.

[@LoraLoibu]

i'm pretty sure gekko _plays_ baiken

[@5q1d87]

Not anymore (unfortunately) he plays Slayer now.​@@LoraLoibu

[@LoraLoibu]

@@5q1d87 used to play baiken ig

[@TheFreeWulf]

Currently a 10F Baiken. No matter her tier status, she’s just fun as hell to play.

[@totallyaploy1824]

F9 Baiken here. While she's fun as hell, I do find that I'd like just...a little more out of her

[@Bluebatstar]

I feel like with every big modern fighting game being at least pretty well balanced nowadays, most FG players take good balance for granted. There are _stupidly_ broken characters in FG history in both the OP sense, and the literally doesn't work sense, but due to updates and stuff you don't see that nowadays. Which I feel leads most players to think their game is less balanced then it actually is because they don't know what a real ban-worthy or unwinnable character is.

[@IhatethisCPU]

*Glares at Vergil in UMVC3 for example*

[@CalWhimsical]

holy based scolipede liker

[@lojika1majik]

GG -ML-

[@cool_waffle8492]

They will never wake up in the middle of the night after having a nightmare of fighting Pet Shop again.

[@LoraLoibu]

@@cool_waffle8492 "CAW CAW EAT ONE THOUSAND UNBLOCKABLES CAW CAW"

[@Bonemannes]

Counterpoint: tier lists matter because my character is SSS tier and everyone else is below, hence people should just give up and make up excuses for losing

[@ShadowNinjaMaster93]

Keep forgetting the REAL reason people love making tier lists: its because people on the internet are OBSESSED with lists of objectively any nature. WatchMojo's entire existence is tied to this fact.

[@aesiro13]

I think it mostly comes from the human nature of being obsessed with categorization.

[@Kekkai_]

The list itself doesn't matter too much imo but the discussion around their creation is what I enjoy hearing

[@KillerChairYT]

I'm generally bad at fighting games, and when i started Strive, i picked Testament because they're a fuckin badass. Played some matches online, and actually won just about half of them. Has a tierlist ever made me feel like picking higher tier characters? Nah dog, Testament has a big ol scythe and a large hat, im good.

[@LoraLoibu]

tierlists only really matter on the upper echelons of skill, for 99% of players "tierlists" are a lot more personal

[@yurazah]

all you need is a "how easy is it to play a character well" tier list

[@absoul112]

Personally I like looking at tier list videos more so for the reasoning behind the placements rather than the placements themselves. I also think that they can be useful to people at mid level to see why top players think characters are strong (or not) and hopefully learn something.

[@icetide9411]

The best tierlists are those ones where they're like "What Gen 3 pokemon has made the most bowls of cereal" The more absurdly specific and useless, the better the tierlist

[@Kizuke21]

This thumbnail is awesome

[@Campingcoke]

Yes, when i lose with baiken i just say "man if i could have RC'd that parry i would have won" then when i play SOL BADGUY i just win, unless its slayer bridget or ABA, then the character i lost to is broken. And no, im not bad at the game, its not my fault, its not me i swear, the game is rigged 100% seriously, its not me trust.

[@Box_of_Octopus]

i like tierlist for ONE Reason, they give me a good idea on what their thought on characters and why there are on said tier, having to listing to someones option can be fun, even tho most of the time they're wrong

[@OccuredJakub12]

If Axl is Low tier, I'll continue to play Axl If Axl is mid tier, I'll continue to play Axl If Axl is High tier, I'll continue to play Axl If Axl is unplayable, I'll continue to play Axl If Axl is banned, I'll continue to play Axl

[@mct_3551]

With regards to the intro's comment on tier lists not being usurped by a more in-depth or explanatory format, it got me thinking on MU tables (the ones that have every single matchup in the game and average a chr's odds across the cast). I find it quite interesting that the opposite is what happened between MU tables and tier lists, with MU tables being the ones left behind Full MU tables are basically never made nowadays, despite without-a-doubt being more informative/engaging than standard SABCDF tier lists (though of course still very subjective even when done as the combined efforts of top players). Theoretically such lists could be more fun to engage with as a viewer since now you can pinpoint someone's thoughts on specific matchups and discuss with that, giving a much more stable foundation to discuss upon than trying to average out a character's performance against everyone in your mind. However, they're just not as fun to make. A big factor in why we still see tier lists today is that they're fun for both the viewer's side *and* the creator's side. MU charts by comparison are sooooo much work, plus you have to reach out to so many different people to cover all the characters/MUs you don't have an in-depth knowledge of, after all. MU charts for a single character don't have these issues of being unfun/tedious to make, so I'm not surprised we still see them spat out decently often too. Makes me happy, the commentary that comes with them is quite nice to consider.

[@nkirmath8621]

One could extend this argument to who could be considered the strongest characters in inexperienced hands and make 2 tier lists for both of those kinds of players

[@MasterFox64_]

1:33 my boi maxler made that mod

[@Maxler5795]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[@dellconagher8599]

I had about 150 hours in strive when I versed my friend who only had 10 hours, I played happy chaos, and he played sol. We were neck and neck pretty much tying every game (not double ko's but we did 5 wins to victory and in every game both of us were brought down to out last hearts each). Both strong characters but skill required completely changes where they would go.

[@Iwisoks]

If my character is low tier, you better bet your ass Im gonna use the "im playing a low tier" excuse, especially if my oppponent is using a top tier, that goes for every fg i'fve played

[@heavymetalmixer91]

To make matters even worse: A characters strength chances through time in the same balance patch, 'cause the players discover new ways to make that character stronger.

[@noodrasan]

There are also people who refuse to use game mechanics like taunts because "honor" (turbo tbagging is different they'll swear) regardless if there is actual mechanics like strive has meter gain and 3rd strike gave each character a different mechanic tied to it like hugo gets more health while Sean gets a projectile. So to those people your "not playing the character correctly" which is option select for play the character the way I know how to beat.

[@LoraLoibu]

taunting gives you meter balance?? pretty sure 3rd strike taunts are actually used on like knockdowns and shit, Hugo also gets more damage on his next hit/combo along with the extra defense Q gets a comical amount of health though

[@Spectrik]

Yea taunts are pretty important in 3rd strike (and Jojo ASBR)

[@VanMorbir]

Way I see tiers in fighting game is "investment vs return". Top tier characters aren't inherently better but require less investment compared to bottom tier in order to get good results. Some of these top tiers still require a lot of investment, byt yield a lot better results (like xxac zato).

[@theworstspeedrunner]

The people who say Zato is weak don't play zato

[@LoraLoibu]

i've been cooked by a few zatos that mf may be blind but he can COOK

[@koolkidsklub5032]

"They don't carry a worse player to victory because they are better." Counter-point: Slayer.

[@Walt_Chocolate]

Tier list should have a random button for the lulz. It'd be fun to see content creatures make up bunk excuses for the placement.

[@KingOfDarknessAndEvil]

4:16 Yes, I assure you a tier list i make will be quite based

[@smithbabies7886]

The only objectively correct tierlist would be to have a "annoying little shit" tierlist, put everyone at S, and the random button at A.

[@drumstyx9456]

I'm relatively new to fighting games, but something I've learned from other competitive games like Splatoon is that tier lists only really matter at the highest levels of play. Like, if you're trying to break into top 8 at major tournaments or something like that, you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot if you don't pick at least a high tier or meta-counter, or of course one of the top tiers. 99% of players are not gonna reach that level though. So until you reach that 1%, you can always reach your goals with any character that feels right to you, regardless of where they are on the tier list

[@AmparoArchilla-t9v]

Nicklaus Manor

[@shellularity]

i love categorization (i'm told it's an autistic trait?) and as such i really really love tier lists and stuff, but i don't really care about them in-game when like picking a character. i used to want to only play low tiers but i've chilled out because i've just gone "ignore tier lists when picking characters, play the character you like the most that also fits into your playstyle well"

[@Genyosai03]

While I believe tier lists are subjective, a proper respectable list should be composed without factoring in player skill, meaning it's all about the character's toolkit above all else.

[@undiagnosed01]

A Brawlhalla pro admitted that he always put Lance bottom tier because he didnt like going against that weapon and didnt want more more players to pick it up. Comedy gold when i found out and also a wake up call that tier lists really dont matter.

[@CalWhimsical]

HELP THE THUMBNAIL

[@LoraLoibu]

bottom tier baiken

[@CrimsoniteSP]

I use tier lists to avoid top tiers. I don't know why but if a character happens to be good, I'll do my best to avoid them at all costs, unless they're just that fun. In DBFZ, Krillin was low tir and the moment they were buffed to high tier, I was so happy to see the buffs, and then proceeded to never use him ever again.

[@ASmashedPumpkin7]

yo I thought pilk was gonna be bad, but I was pleasantly surprised at how good it was.

[@liampbjray5562]

i use tier lists just because i enjoy playing top tiers. i like playing good characters, its something i enjoy

[@Kader-h9z]

I use them to play niche characters I love playing wierd characters with funky stuff sadly people don't realize how peak they are 😔

[@its_saber1525]

​@@Kader-h9zI love picking weaker ones too because a lot of the time, they're rare so people don't understand what to do against them. And if they're buffed, it's exciting

[@s.b.e._9692]

Hehe, hold my coffin we are going to Brazil

[@NeroWolf42]

you had me at pilk

[@ArchibaldEli-u1u]

Bertha Crossroad

[@Evil-Olive]

The amount of times I have dismissed a ranked match in Tekken because I lost to a top 5 character happens more than I care to admit

[@Michirin9801]

Most of the time tierlists pop up on my feed is: "How much I like these things vs these other things" lol As for fighting games, I just pick the cutest girls, or a comfort character, and sometimes the two overlap.

[@LoraLoibu]

bridget?

[@Michirin9801]

@@LoraLoibu For GG I main Jam and Millia

[@FrancesAldrich-e7o]

Evans Prairie

[@TommyLouise-l8e]

Francesco Crossroad

[@AbramCezil-b5y]

Lynch Wall

[@whyam1thisway]

Axl Low will always be bottom one in my heart

[@onthedre]

I mean I want to be competitive and I want to be the best but fat chance of that happening because they always make the main character stupid op

[@GoofGunk__]

3:25 so it's not a balance tier list. what is it then?

[@absoul112]

I stared at it for a couple of minutes, I think its random.

[@HoraceLucier-v8v]

Richmond Route

[@RuthJackiewicz-s3k]

Rempel Falls

[@RosalindCornell-s1f]

Favian Shore

[@Maxler5795]

1:34 Hey... Waitaminute... *_I DID THAT!_*

[@BeckyMarshall-v7o]

Marjory Island

[@stainfrompain]

but what about what about the potemkin testament matchup 😭

[@zeonasist]

When u win againts a low tier: "Im playing a low tier thats why I lost" When u lose againts a low tier: "EAT SHIT U LOSE AGAINTS A LOW TIER HAHAHAH" There is no winning againts a low tier man

[@Alphine_Agnitio]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head - tier lists are 1 persons subjective opinion. While there almost always is a semi-clear consensus (since the person that feels confident enough to make a tierlist and defend it is also generally the same people at the top) but if you're at the bottom floors of ranked, the difference between playing Sol and playing Zato is borderline meaningless - because while the relative factor comparision is there, the expression and actual skill of players isn't high enough to where those differences are extremely relavent. Tierlists are good for getting a rough feel of what people think about specific characters or the game as a whole, but its best to always take it with a grain of salt and form your own opinion(s)

[@LoraLoibu]

I started playing GGST with Potemkin, later picking up Nagoriyuki. A mid-tier and a top-tier. I, on average, _do better with Potemkin._ Modern FG tier lists *_don't fucking matter._* Play whoever calls to you. ...I say that, while kinda choice-paralyzed when trying to pick a character to learn in Xrd because funny grab man is _really_ bad in that game. Maybe I should pick up X2AC+R, Pot was good in that game, right?

[@sadetwizelve]

:15 GET’EM! 😂

[@HuxleyQuinn-t6o]

Dickens Islands

[@RosaAllen-i6k]

Hickle Corner

[@RuthTyree-w4k]

Lincoln Islands

[@FrancesDwight-m2q]

Glen Port

[@its_saber1525]

The main reason I don't listen to tier list for fighting games is every character will be different Like normally, chipp isn't that strong. But against Faust, he's just overpowered as he will be able to not allow faust to get items off at all

[@MoscleBrog]

bedman always in bottem tier and i dont give 5 levels of damn about it XD

[@leonlindkvist]

the reason why i don´t care about tierlist created by pros is because im not a pro i do not play with pros characters they have at the bottom of the tierlist always kills me without im being able to do something

[@LoraLoibu]

and that's why you learn the matchup there's two characters I fear not because they're top tier but because i barely go against them. Jack-O' and Goldlewis. I have at the very least a semblance to a gameplan against most characters. Play defensively against these, go on the offensive with these, I know some of their tricks and counters to them. Did you know you can flick reflect or use clone to deny I-No's Chemical Love? Yeah, that move is a projectile! But Jack-O' and Goldlewis? Forget about it. Jack-O' locks me down in the corner within 5 seconds because her roundstart buttons are *fucking crazy* Goldlewis? I literally *don't see any.* Like, at all. I don't even really know what buttons he tends to use on roundstart.

[@leonlindkvist]

@@LoraLoibu for me i never see zato or ino but when i do meet them i can´t do anything against them

[@DorotheaBrian-m4g]

Lemke Ways

[@JustinKiefer-l1t]

Evans Island

[@TiffanyMeyers-p7y]

Grant Orchard

[@ianweckhorst3200]

3:26 yes but it is a based tierlist

[@AllisonMontoya-v2n]

Harmon Field

[@RemnantTheMoth]

How else would I explain to my friend why I'm better?

[@jgblkshot8375]

yes oh my god someone has to say it

[@sadetwizelve]

They’ve always just been for fun to me,I don’t take them seriously.

[@MayraHutcheson-l7v]

Rippin Row

[@ElFelipe-u5x]

Testament is top tier

[@JoseMartin-v7n]

Glover Corners

[@AnnAnnabelle-d2f]

Oleta Dam

[@Killakob3s]

Tier lists matter for me idk

[@1finxxo]

Well I found ggs from your vids, Thought gio was and cool played her for awhile but the gameplan didn’t really suit me. So now I eat glue and have played better than ever

[@RebirthusFinal]

Seems right. Nerf Zato

[@MaloryBoyd-d1x]

Buck Rue

[@arat9904]

youd put ky at the very top wouldnt you

[@GaskellMildred-y4t]

Beahan Harbors

[@CrowFGC]

More baiken propaganda

[@NathanMoran-v7k]

Gaylord Trace

[@LeDanc]

If tier lists didn't matter, we wouldn't see the same 2 characters on top 8 frequently

[@LoraLoibu]

The point of this video is that tierlists are very rough, prone to biases and tend to only apply to the top 1% of players.

[@MorbyLol]

r/theyblamedthebeasts doing 7 backflips and rewriting the bible when shit tier worse than dan hibiki honest bad bad character baiken wins one round against dishonest top tier scum more OP than petshop and kakyoin combined in street fighter rainbow edition 9-1 10-0 matchups character Slayer

[@SarahThompson-y1p]

Cremin Vista

[@AnimeeNoa]

i like your videos, but dont like that you chose chinese spyware to as a sponsor sadly. i know its hard to get money but this shouldnt be recomended

[@Echoes_Official]

4rth Then

[@Donnie_Frogs]

4th then

[@christiangoette2315]

3rd then

[@lgvz7765]

2nd then

[@CervantesDeLeon]

1st