Why Toyota And Hyundai Are Wasting Billions On Hydrogen Cars

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Toyota and Hyundai both sell hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. But due to the high cost of hydrogen and limited fueling infrastructure, sales have been miniscule. So why do they keep making them?
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#Wallstreetmillennial #hydrogen #fcev
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0:00 - 1:18 Intro
1:19 - 2:53 Hydrogen cars
2:54 - 7:40 Toyota
7:41 - 13:03 Hyundai
13:04 Death of hydrogen

[@KingUnKaged]

Working the cash register as a hydrogen fueling station has got to be the most chill job on Earth

[@AncientYouth64]

Just don't have a 🚬

[@val_inv6239]

Until the station explode.

[@viktorianas]

It is chill indeed, for the refueling process, the hydrogen must be cooled down to -40°C

[@internet_userr]

​@@viktorianas Bro just got the joke 😮‍💨😮‍💨

[@squorsh]

​@@internet_userr I had thought the joke was a reference to the fact that nobody would go there and you'd get to just sit around all day, chilling

[@UnbreakableM1nd]

As someone who has worked in pipeline transmission before and has a degree in metallurgy, Hydrogen infrastructure is just stupid. The gas are transported in liquefied state, you have to keep it under enormous pressure. This is like transporting Liquified Natural Gas (LNG). They keep LNG terminals far away from where people live. Hydrogen filling stations are just plain dangerous, especially if you have it close to residential areas. The hydrogen itself can also accelerate the deterioration of metal and make it brittle over time, leading to unpredictable failures. The filling of hydrogen vehicles is extremely finicky. You are releasing pressure from a liquified tank and into your vehicle. The pumping process will make the nozzles freeze due to Venturi effect. There is a ton of engineering work needed to make it safe and convenient. I think it will likely become a case where you need a specialist to fill the car for you, because a Joe Schmuck out there will mess it up and cause a massive explosion at the filling station. Right now it isn't that popular, but just wait until the masses and Karens start filling up vehicles with Hydrogen.... the potential for disaster will grow. Thank god it's not popular, I bet the engineers who worked on the infrastructure realized it's not feasible on large scale. Why does Japan want Hydrogen cars? Well, they don't have any fossil fuel resources, but have lots of ocean and nuclear power. The government must have figured out to be self reliant, they should probably use nuclear or other green power to generate hydrogen from seawater. EV Batteries means relying on China for supply. Gas cars means reliance on oil import from abroad. Japan has no good choice left and is forced to consider Hydrogen. For North America, we shouldn't even consider hydrogen cars.

[@DeLorean4]

This is the best explanation I have ever read. I always wondered why the Japanese kept working on the technology after the early 2000s when the American OEMs realized it was a waste of time.

[@Terkini-pr1nj]

Maybe few year . Methane to hydrogen conversion in gas station more common . So . Its more safe . Plus metal hydride for hydrogen storage in bicycle more common in China. In matter of time . ICE car using hydrogen everywhere

[@fenrirgg]

The have to rely on other countries always due lack of natural resources. Even for Japan it would have more sense to use electricity and batteries instead hydrogen. They are being stubborn in that bad idea to save face or something.

[@benchpress200]

Fantastic insights. Thank you!

[@kendalson7100]

Well said!

[@flashoflight8160]

The sole reason why EV is the only viable alternative to ICE is the ability to charge at home if you own your home. EV would be borderline unusable for me if I had to depend upon unreliable public charging. There is never going to be hydrogen charging at home.

[@Keylevitation]

Socks that so many public EV charging points are already busted

[@chrisja1998]

Exactly. And in extreme situations. EVs can charge from a normal wall outlet. You would need a gas station for an ICE vehicle. And if you are very extreme a couple of solor panels, a battery and an inverter, and ALOT of patience and time. And you are off-grid with your EV. Free charging, can't say the same about shtty hydrogen cars.

[@rogerfroud300]

Efficiency is also an important metric, as is simplicity.

[@SillySausage-mq3so]

Its funny EVs are being banned from Hospitals in the UK, don'ts want to burn them down :( Garage no where near safe :(

[@chrisja1998]

@@SillySausage-mq3so its sad that this misinformation is spreading and actually being enforced. EVs are NOT more likely to catch fire than the counterpart ICE vehicles. In fact it’s the opposite, probably because EVs tend to be newer and that can’t be said for all ICE vehicles. But it’s undoubtedly harder to stop an EV fire. And just google the statistics. I know they are out there. I read up on it when a friend of mine also claimed the statement that EVs catch fire more often.

[@ccmangb]

Consumers still think that cars have to be filled at the station, and waiting an hour for a EV to fill up is ridiculous. Thats why the short filling time of hydrogen seems to be the solution. The thing is that for EVs, your own home is the gas station, and since you're parking it there for hours every day, there is no actual wait. You can't do this with gas and hydrogen cars. Granted, long trips require superchargers, but unless you are driving hundreds of miles every day, all you need is some travel planning for long trips.

[@mustangthings]

It’s amazing how expensive these cars are to run now that True Zero is charging $36 per kg.

[@letsburn00]

Note that this is the equivalent of

[@arnoldvosloo220]

@@letsburn00 If you watched the video, he points out that at $10/kg it's already uncompetitive with ICE SUVs. Nevermind the fact that the 2030 goal of $2.8/kg is beyond a joke now - can throw the rest of their fantasies out the window.

[@tellyboy17]

@@letsburn00 You van expect 70 miles from 1 kilo of hydrogen so $36/kg hydrogen would compare to a hybrid driving on $20/gallon gasoline.

[@onlypranav]

@@letsburn00 It's actually 3 times as energy dense not 10 times. Simple google search would tell you the energy content per kg

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@nulnoh219]

You gotta not only build a car, but convince people build an entire hydrogen chain. Creating an entire industry around it. While competing with li battery industry.

[@ChineseKiwi]

And established supply chains and infrastructure via that electricity (and in the case of biomethane, established natural gas infrastructure)

[@th3oryO]

And, at the end of the day, you're still competing with the gas/diesel equivalents, at least to some extent. Tough gig when there isn't any significant performance benefits.

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen cars, it's the future. Big Oil is done!

[@wizzyno1566]

​@@Brad_Fallonno

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@ferocone]

The irony of Toyota running an ad for me on this same video of a gas powered Toyota Tacoma...

[@ddhurry4168]

I want a north American Champ...4wd version preferred

[@n0namenate]

I got mercedes EQB electric lol

[@MOBMJ]

mine was a Mazda AD

[@Deontjie]

I hope the Tacoma looks better than this ugly duckling in this video.

[@duncanmacleanjr]

The key comment in the video concerns Japan not having oil and natural gas reserves. Nuclear took a hit after Fukushima. Offshore wind farms is another growth area, but both countries are not going to put all their eggs in one basket.

[@reappermen]

That's the thing though, Hydrogen as fuel is not an energy source, just energy storage/transmission. The hydrogen has to be made either from imported fossile fuels, or from energy. Either way it doesn't solve the problem, it makes it worse as you lose the vast majority of the power to get to hydrogen either way

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@epithos]

2 million for a gas station sounds like a lot but that's about the same as permitting and installing a greenfield drive through coffee shop on the Colorado front range in 2018. That number was either very dated or an outright lie.

[@michalfaraday8135]

2 million is way less than the actual cost. Those experimental stations are small for 30-40 cars per day. A station that would replace a typical gas station would likely be 10x more expensive. In Prague a H2 station for 20 cars/day cost over 6 million dollars :-(

[@ticspin4191]

Love this channel. Keep up the brilliant work

[@delinquense]

One of my favorites. Always topical and concise. Well researched and communicated.

[@resevoirdog]

Although you aren't wrong lol

[@JoeRogansGutBiome]

I remember when Arnold Schwarzneger did that hydrogen publicity stunt when he was governor of CA.

[@jeffmorin5867]

I don't recall anything about what you said, could you elaborate a bit?

[@wikipediafollower]

@@jeffmorin5867 Arnie is basically the reason the Humvee got converted into the Hummer, and they made him a hydrogen powered H2 while he was governor

[@thermitebanana]

It seems so weird to me that the whole zero carbon emission thing is based on facing up to the scientific reality of climate change, but the premise of hydrogen fuel vehicles is "What if physics and maths were different?"

[@pagannova3621]

that's because you understand the flaws. if only everyone did, we could actually solve unnecessary emissions...

[@--Nath--]

Laws of thermodynamics? Japan laughs at them.. but it makes zero difference.

[@nb6525]

You missed an important point. Its not that Japan doesn’t understand or care about practicality, cost of EVs. Unfortunately most of the supply EV chain is heavily exposed to China, which creates a risk if they built an industry on that.

[@bltzcstrnx]

If Japan focuses on BEV from 1990 instead of hydrogen, they would already be competitive with China right now.

[@hellfire6372]

@@bltzcstrnxConsidering China's competitive edge stemming from cheap labor and lithium harvesting rights, the US finds it challenging to compete. What opportunities does Japan possess?

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@hellfire6372 the US is also late to the game. Not to mention, they have internal problems with environmental groups and local tribe lands. If they're serious, they do have large domestic lithium deposits. One of the main reasons for China's hard push for battery technology is crude oil politics. The US doesn't have this incentive. Crude oil supply chains are mostly controlled by Western countries. China finds this as a threat to their nation security, hence their push for other alternatives. One of those alternatives is battery technologies.

[@Tuppoo94]

​@@bltzcstrnx "National security" is newspeak for "imperialist ambitions".

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@Tuppoo94 all countries does this. Japan Hydrogen ambition also stems from national security concerns. Same with why the US forbids Huawei from their country. In the case of energy, the US is in a safe spot when regarding crude oil supplies. This is why they have low ambition in battery and EV technologies.

[@mathewritchie]

I think that we will see commercial fusion power before hydrogen powered cars are successful,sometime after 2330 a.d. maybe?

[@cenzoredworld]

Probably be a commercially viable fusion powered flying car by the time hydrogen becomes "viable."😆

[@Funktastico]

japan US collab to fasttrack fusion plant dev. and commercialist , announced 4 days ago

[@randomaccount53793]

The only way hydrogen makes sense is by creating a bigger energy supply than needed and using excess energy to create pink hydrogen. This would act as a psudo-battery storage of sorts. But as we know, Japan closed all their plants down so it is more of a pipe dream.

[@TacticusPrime]

Yeah, I can't see any argument for fuel cell vehicles, but research on green hydrogen tech in general is a good investment.

[@Funktastico]

Japan restarting nuclear plants program since last year

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen cars, it's the future. Big Oil is done!

[@wizzyno1566]

​@Brad_Fallon no

[@MrFuckwit999]

Even if you have a large supply of green Hydrogen, it would make more sense to use it for fertiliser production, which is where most H is used.

[@DumbledoreMcCracken]

Where a ton on u2b channels talk a lot, but say little, this channel says a lot in a condensed way. Excellent script work.

[@SeanPannella]

Step one have cheap nuclear power, until you have very cheap electricity it will be hard for hydrogen to be viable, however cheap electricity is likely in the future so running hydrogen powered devices as an RD project makes sense, hydrogen heating may be a better use case if we find better organic batteries in the future that don’t require metals with limited supplies

[@arkexplorer9328]

Ive given this some thought, short and sweat you need to get rid of that mixture in a crash no matter what, can we configre the mixtures and the release of it onto the road without a major bang, even skywards maybe. But if those cells or cylinders go, you really dont wanna be close, it makes an easygas looks like a firework.

[@schlichter11]

Many if not most of the refueling stations are broken around LA most of the time. Like EV charging stations its a total roll of the dice if you can actually get to a working station before your vehicle dies.

[@puddles5501]

pretty sure these guys are betting on fleet sales

[@Kabodanki]

waiting for the EV craze to end, so they can go back to sell gasoline cars without much loss

[@hospitable_ghost]

This is what I was thinking, as well.

[@JimmyDoyel-by2cp]

They can't compete with China, so they try to forge new path, they play the long game and only time will tell if it payoffs.

[@letsburn00]

​@@KabodankiEVs and plug in Hybrids will be practically all cars within 15 years. It's not a fad. H2 for cars is highly dubious though.

[@maroon9273]

​​@@letsburn00evs is unreliable and useless.

[@kennethkueh1256]

Either they don't understand science or they have a technical breakthrough up their sleeve.

[@electrified0]

The fuel speed "advantage" has a lot of caveats to consider outside of the ideal scenario of a highway pit stop with all 3 choices. Even in the limited locations that have hydrogen stations, they are the least common ones to find by far. For electric vehicles that have the longest charge up time, many drivers can skip this fueling stop altogether by charging where they already park, or even at closer parking spots dedicated to charging in some locations. It's not uncommon for an EV driver to never visit a fast charger in multiple years of driving, and spend the least amount of time fueling as a result despite having the slowest fueling vehicle. Compared against gas and electric, hydrogen cars are the most expensive of the 3, lose the most cargo space to fuel storage, have the most expensive fuel cost per mile driven and have the fewest number of "fast fueling" stations. All these tradeoffs for the theoretical benefit of filling up faster than charging a battery, when someone charging up an EV at home is still getting a significantly better fueling experience.

[@Mountain-Viking]

Much easier to plug in at home and charge at night for a fraction of the cost. Driving off with a full tank every day.

[@dougsheldon5560]

It's a small molecule, it leaks out.

[@Chris.Davies]

You mean "atom" of course. Hydrogen is an element, and hydrogen gas is comprised only of Hydrogen atoms. And it is (of course) the smallest atom.

[@kolbyking2315]

​@@Chris.DaviesGaseous Hydrogen forms a diatomic molecule, H2.

[@henryD9363]

Smallest molecule to leaking is an issue that has to be worked out. Hydrogen is very flammable. And it does not produce any visible light whatsoever. Zero. It does produce ultraviolet light but no visible light. You can look at a night launch of the space shuttle and you can see there's no flames coming out of the main engines. Just the boosters. So you could have a hydrogen leak with a very energetic flame and you cannot see it.

[@viktorianas]

If my arsehole is able to contain methane (leaks only sometimes), and you say there isn't technology to contain hydrogen??

[@JimmyDoyel-by2cp]

No they combine to form H2 to balance the electron shell, so technically it is a molecule.

[@wmpx34]

The first model will be dubbed the “Hindenburg”

[@Doggieman1111]

Hindenburg 2: Electric Boogaloo

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen cars, it's the future. Big Oil is done!

[@wizzyno1566]

​@@Brad_Fallonno

[@motherslove686]

I feel no body has said anything against the car itself. The charging Infrastructure has issues. Infact, it is a very reliable and comfortable car.

[@shanewilson2484]

The cost of hydrogen vs the cost of electricity means hydrogen is a dud when competing with battery vehicles, even when the cost of batteries is considered.

[@sourlemon3337]

It doesn’t help that these hydrogen cars have really boring designs. Part of the appeal of these “startup” EV companies is their unique car designs that stand out.

[@noahderrington5156]

Imagine an analogy of two solutions to get water to houses: 1- the water is distributed by an existing network of pipes and infrastructure to the houses, you open a tap and water comes out. 2- you take water at a source, use huge amounts of energy to freeze it, put it on a freezer truck and drive it to a place near the houses which uses more energy, invest in expensive new freezer infrastructure to keep the water frozen until people come and collect it that uses even more energy, when people get the frozen water home they need to use more energy to defrost it so water can come out of the tap. 1= electricity to an EV 2= hydrogen to a hydrogen car Anyone can instantly see how totally insane option 2 is without needing to understand anything else about the technology.

[@clivea99]

There are only 2 industries that need pure h2. Production of ammonia for fertiliser and green steel from iron ore. Most other uses are a terrible waste.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

Let me guess: Tax breaks and PR?

[@simplemechanics246]

Because wind farms have massive amount surplus and hydrogen production is possible to calibrate on real time, it means every wind farm must make own hydrogen production or any other alternative fuel production. It should be on law if anyone want to open wind farm. Currently wind farms loose about 50% thanks for peak production, when they can sell ZERO production. That number goes only worse if green production nears to 30% from total production. Over 30% means they earn may be 25% only from total production as real sale. So green energy is so wasteful

[@johnsamuel1999]

You could just store the excess energy in a battery. Its far more cheaper and efficient compared to hydrogen which has the expensive infrastructure and less efficiency

[@skierpage]

Yet no wind or solar farm bothers to do what you're proposing. Electrolyzers and storage facilities and H2 pipelines aren't cheap, and if you only make hydrogen some of the time your capital expenses go up. Green hydrogen in a nutshell: Step 1: build lots of wind and solar to generate megawatts of renewable electricity you need to split water. Step 2: scrap plans to make expensive green hydrogen, and just sell the electricity onto an existing grid for more efficient uses. Optional Step 3: Install batteries so you can maximize use of existing transmission and sell electricity when you're not generating and it's more valuable.

[@ryuuguu01]

Use batteries or off-river pumped hydro to store the energy. Japan already has 25GW of pumped hydro generation they built to store energy for nuclear power. It has many mountains right up the coast in unpopulated areas of the country so building a large amount of pumped hydro is not a problem.

[@Mayangone]

I used to work on coal conversion, using hydrogen, which caused embrittlement of steel. To counter the embrittlement, I used expensive 316L steel for all vessels and piping.

[@joez.2794]

Hydrogen is the _lightest_ element, NOT the smallest. Helium is smallest by far, which is why it was never viable in airships despite being non-flammable (leaks through pretty much anything except a steel cylinder).

[@mzs114]

This just implies that FCV will wither away and BEVs will take over!

[@BigMoneyLion]

Subscription model with home delivery of hydrogen... Boom

[@DeaconG1959]

If you cannot establish an infrastructure for fuel, it doesn't matter how damn good the tech is. Look at the dearth of charging stations for EV's now. Putting the cart before the horse does no one any favors. You're looking at 20+ years to get the infrastructure up and running, assuming someone will take the risk to finance it. Wishing don't make it so. Cash does.

[@GetOffMyyLawn]

I think this is just Toyota saying "we will be green with hydrogen" while the go all in on hybrids and plug in hybrids. They know it is not time to go all electric.

[@shosc16]

I wouldn’t call it ‘wasting’ - especially is it’s testing and deploying unconventional and new technology. Everything costs money. People said the same thing about ‘wasting billions’ on the internet, EV, blockchain. Shortsighted analysis this video is

[@TacticusPrime]

... blockchain is definitely a waste.

[@devinward461]

​@@TacticusPrime agreed

[@shosc16]

@@TacticusPrime I can see it heading that way, but we wouldn’t have known without the investment that’s gone in it

[@vanyac6448]

2:50 - what about pink hydrogen? Hydrogen made by power provided by nuclear power - either by first converting the nuclear power into electricity and then using it for electrolysis of water, or by using the very high temperatures created by fission to split the water directly.

[@mzs114]

Just think if they had invested this in the BEV tech, we are already at the cusp of going mainstream with Sodium Ion batteries!

[@WMD4929]

Interesting. There used to be a bus route in London which mainly employed hydrogen buses. It was canned about five years ago and the explanation was that the route was deemed redundant (rather than cost).

[@fnorgen]

I can understand these governments and companies betting hard on hydrogen 15 years ago when conventional EVs were a bit shit. But battery tech has improved a lot, and hydrogen just hasn't. Every advantage hydrogen used to have has eroded away! Battery charging time isn't that much of a concern anymore, energy density is mostly adequate, cycle life is fine if you don't beat on them and prices are getting reasonable. They put their money on the wrong tech, and it's jut sad that they're still refusing to change course. Also, a hydrogen fuelled boiler is a disgusting concept! Regardless if you're burning green or grey hydrogen, you'd be much better off burning electricity or natural gas directly!

[@marky2022]

Exciting time to come for Hydrogen, maybe later. Not sure if everyone can see it or not...

[@therighteous802]

A perfect example of how a government can spend billions on the wrong thing and make the private sector to do the same. So you better vote for competent people.

[@steveoh5515]

Nice productio!

[@kendalson7100]

The big energy companies have spent decades researching alternatives to oil and gas for cars. Because they are in the business of selling energy, they would take whatever alternative works and run with it. So far, nothing.

[@simeon8360]

EVs require significant cost reductions and better carbon footprints to become feasible. At the moment they are purchased by people who are excited about the technology and subsidised often by people who cannot afford these vehicles (via the government).

[@xcw4934]

I believe hydrogen might have a place to get aviation and large trucks to zero emissions but it just doesn't make sense for private passenger vehicles where the size and weight of the battery isn't as big of a problem as for large cargo trucks and planes. The mistake seems to be more trying to force private cars to go hydrogen rather than setting up a smaller number of hydrogen truck refuelling stations which would require fewer locations to become viable.

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@FriedChairs]

@@Brad_Fallon And yet evidence shows it’s failing and in decline.

[@user-me2dy6ct4z]

Ev is the best option, once the solid state battery in place.

[@Ashwin-zg7rt]

Its good companies investing in diversifying energy sources. Cost is a factor of scale so the cost will come down eventually. All these cost discussions will be swept away once fossil fuels are depleted

[@CristanMeijer]

Imagine if all of these billions would have been invested in metro's, trams and trains. You can power these with green energy directly, no need for batteries or the inefficient in-between that is hydrogen.

[@zebrasusdarkness8810]

Saying this about the country (Japan) that already does this is weird but okay

[@leifandersen2756]

The hydro cars are not completely developed but is slowly coming to life .They are still on the experimental basis and are not for sale yet !

[@Zripas]

Hydrogen cars are relatively old. First hydrogen fuel cell powered car was released in 1966... It had more than enough time to become something, yet its still nothing... Its already at peak performance. There might be a way to squeeze extra few % from entire system, but it will not change much

[@FriedChairs]

So you’re trying to say nobody has ACTUALLY bought a Mirai?

[@cyruslupercal9493]

Basicly, synthetic fuel. It will be more expensive as solar energy is very dispersed. Maybe H2 productoin is easier to optimise then synthetic hydrocarbons.

[@OnkarPawar_Omi]

Because, Sunk cost fallacy.

[@z50king29]

Each Toyota lot around here has 10 used Mirai on their lot. Hella cheap

[@kb8570]

Hydrogen cars keeps the public distracted.

[@shadowninja6689]

Elon Musk was 100% right when he called Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles "Hydrogen Fool Cells", because only a fool would ever buy one or believe that hydrogen will ever win out in the market place for consumer transportation.

[@JJ-zr6fu]

Of course someone with their wealth intrinsically tied to the EVs would disparage fuel cells that are a sounder technology. The problem is the development of fuels is way behind EVs

[@Tokamak3.1415]

@@JJ-zr6fu If you take a high school level chemistry class you will learn the simple concepts of entropy, energy of activation and the laws of thermodynamics. There's no "development" you can make that surpasses the fundamental way molecules have energy states as Einstein has shown that for non nuclear reactions energy cannot be created or destroyed. Unless somebody at Toyota or Hyundai manages to get a self sustaining fusion reactor going at commercial scale, hydrogen is dead for private vehicle use. It was dead before it started because hydrogen is not made as a waste product by any normal conventional chemical processing. Whoever fed you the sounder technology line doesn't know a Bunsen burner from a pipet.

[@_Stupid_Idiot]

i shared this to the Hydrogen Car Owners group on Facebook and they blocked me

[@GSimpsonOAM]

The truth hurts

[@ronthorn3]

@@GSimpsonOAMlol

[@wizzyno1566]

Both of them?

[@mickgatz214]

ahhhh, the Moderator Gods... 😂

[@xoukilong]

$180 to go 350 miles 🙄

[@ddmark69]

If I had a hydrogen car, I would need to drive 3 hours to fuel up.

[@laurentiusmichaelgeorge1118]

The long term effect of our worn out battery waste needs to be talked about every time we talk about hydrogen powered sources. It's probably the single biggest reason why we should consider hydrogen.

[@someb0dy2]

I don't consider H2 cars as a waste. They may cost billions in research and small scale production, but there has been lots of R&D performed. I don't think of R&D as a waste cos there is a good chance that whatever was learnt can be applied to other things later on. Anyway, we got ICE and EV vehicles. It's always good to have other plans in case the move to EV fails. We will probably have a better idea of EVs working out on a longer term basis after another 5 to 10 years, when probably there will be millions of EV vehicles needing a battery change. If even after that, EV is seen as doing well, we may not need other options, but till then H2 or other types of vehicle energy storage research is probably still a good back up plan. EDIT : To add a real life example. Corning made tough glass for limited industrial use in the 1960s (doubt they turned a profit on limited runs). No idea how many thousands or millions they spend. When iphones happened, they were ready with Gorilla glass, based on research they conducted in the 1960s. If they have not spend the resources on the early research, they would not be used in a substantial number of smart phones now. Was that research / early limited production a waste?

[@cfromnowhere]

Pivoting to green aviation engines in one, two, three...?

[@compromisedssh]

This channel is dope and I'm a huge fan. This is a poor analysis though. I share the belief that hydrogen will not be the fuel of the future, but citing vehicle sales at this point (you know-- before the infrastructure is reliably in place) doesn't make a for a convincing this-product-line-is-a-flop case. It's all good though. I'll be waiting to slap that like button when the next WSM video drops.

[@GregConquest]

I don't know how anyone can make a video on hydrogen-powered cars, and Japan, without looking at pink, purple or red hydrogen and HTTR and HTGR reactors. If the Japanese plan to produce both hydrogen and mechanical/electrical power from HTGR reactors works out, then a hydrogen economy is not only possible, butt it beats event else, other than fusion.

[@justinjones3326]

cant have hydrogen without fusion.... Livermore recently made progress but it still a ways off

[@willardSpirit]

Rather spend this money and all the VC and investor's money on AI cars (about 150 billion)and shift towards public transit

[@user-hc4hk5bs8l]

Isn't "green" hydrogen still emitting a lot of greenhouse gas also? Those wind mills don't build themselves. Nothing is really "green", yet.

[@ourv9603]

Because California, which is the biggest retail vehicle market in the world, told all the makers that hydrogen was going to be the coming thing and to sell in Ca makers had to offer an H car. Swartznegger left office & Ca H drive died. !

[@canwelook]

Are they betting on fusion or nuclear power ultimately being used to power cheap hydrogen production?

[@MillionMileDrive]

Nothing wrong with backing 2 horses

[@108chapin]

It's a terrible idea if the more you back one horse the slower the other one goes.

[@seseth9971]

What happened to the good old solar panel cars?

[@rtz549]

They were EV's in reality. The panels charged the batteries.

[@Zripas]

Aptera is the company making solar panel powered car, fyi its BEV.

[@redacted3610]

LA resident here. Never have seen the hydrogen KIA's. Meanwhile I see a hydrogen Toyota's every week at least

[@rars0n]

BMW made a hydrogen version of their 12-cylinder 7-series called the Hydrogen 7. It ran on both regular gasoline and hydrogen stored in a liquid form in a tank behind the rear seats. Engineering Explained did a good job of discussing many of the technical challenges involved, like how the hydrogen has to be kept at -253C and will vent itself over time to cause the entire tank to drain in 10-12 days (can't park the car in a garage). The video is worth a watch: v=AouW9_jyZck

[@user-hc4hk5bs8l]

I feel like subsidy has become synonymous with "waste-of-money"

[@turbo_brian]

Water is an emission. It's just not a polluting emission.

[@lephtovermeet]

I get Japan and Korea's motivation to integrate hydrogen into their economy but they'll have to solve desalination and energy supply before they can be produce massive amounts of hydrogen, they should have started there.

[@stigbengtsson7026]

Hydrogen I wonder why ? 🤔. The fuel cell is not easy fix, it only gives some volt per cell, you have to stack hundreds, and everyone has to have hoses with oxygen and hydrogen to maintain the process, if you get any dirt into the system the power will drop. The fuel cell, as I been told can not accelerate good enough, so you have to have a battery. If you are outside in cold winter you have to keep the cell warm, or it will freeze apart, it contains water. And as others have said, to fill up is a hazardous thing, hydrogen is worlds smallest atom, it will take any chance to leak. Japan has got a lots of nuclear plants, if I am correct, they also produce hydrogen as some kind of biprodukt.

[@bsf225]

Why not just skip the whole exercise and just run cars on Natural Gas, given that Nat Gas is what they need to make Hydrogen? You could even create home filling stations since most homes have Nat Gas.

[@Premier424]

comment section, 0 knoweldge about fossil fuels, 100% confidence on their conclusion

[@HeavyDevy89]

If you'd like a bit of a 'down and dirty' engineering level explanation on the question of hydrogen, check out Paul Martin's Linkedin - he's a chemical scientist with the University of Toronto and lays out very plainly why H2 simply won't work in passenger vehicles.

[@ecoideazventures6417]

It is clear these top car companies never wanted to enter EV or hydrogen fuel market in a big way. The whole facade was a greenwashing effort just to showcase their clean image. So either these companies will take over a good innovative startup soon or they will vanish one day!

[@viewer7200]

H could be viable only as green H, gray H totally defeats the purpose of 'clean' fuel. It would the same as charging your EV from a gasoline generator. Why bother with a hydrogen produced by "methane generator", if you can fill up with a methane-converted gas car?

[@user-oi2rd8yl2u]

A bucket sized vessel with compressed air of TEN bars exploding kills people around. A H2 tank in a car with SEVENHUNDRED bars exploding and also igniting acts like a military air fuel bomb and destroys many buildings.

[@JamesR1986]

People dispraising EVs in favor of hydrogen power vehicles in 2024 are just an exercise in doubling down and not wanting to admit they are wrong.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

This space thinks both are wasting money

[@philipjones3599]

The point about charging infrastructure is very telling and simultaneously exposes a hidden trump card of evs over both hydrogen and petrol and that is home charging. The beauty of it is as follows. Rich people in general have larger homed with space to install home chargers. Rich people are the same people who buy new cars. Home charging is both very convenient not having to go to a gas station and very cheap or for particularly smart people free. This combination ensures electric cars will remain popular with those who buy new cars. As the public charging network improves to meet the demand of drivers away from home it will allow more and more people to give up ice as electric car convince increases.

[@Moonstone-Redux]

Even if you cannot spring for a home charger, a normal power plug can still charge a car battery. Very slowly, but enough that your average commute can be covered by an overnight charge. Even more so if you live in a 240V country.

[@GSimpsonOAM]

The used car market will be non existent though. They will be worth nothing. I have never bought a new car but happy to buy an older up market used car at an acceptable price. An older hydrogen or electric car with a limited residual life is worthless

[@philipjones3599]

@@GSimpsonOAM this is completely false there are evs out there now with over 450,000 miles with original battery and power train.

[@GSimpsonOAM]

@@philipjones3599 I was referring to age rather than mileage

[@machintrucGaming]

Cheap ? I dunno. I made the math of what the kilowatt of an EV and the price I pay per KW for home electricity... And it's about equivalent if not more expensive

[@aboutface102]

I keep coming back to 1 word, Hindenburg.

[@s4098429]

I think the potential of hydrogen vehicles lies in trucks, lorries and tractors. Using batteries to power heavy machinery just won’t work.

[@BrankoDimitrijevic021]

So... WHY are Toyota And Hyundai wasting billions on hydrogen cars? Is it just about scooping-up a few government subsidies or is there something more to it?

[@Breakfast598]

Essentially, EVs are rich people toys bc theres not enough lithium for all people who own gas cars to transitiom to EV. Therefore, there needs to be a different solution for the average person if the green car problem is going to be pushed.

[@barebaric]

It's just wrong that there isn't enough lithium. Not only is there more than enough in total with recent discoveries included, but we have already reached oversupply as well. Which is why lithium prices already crashed.

[@Breakfast598]

@@barebaric I'm counting only the amount of Li that's economically available today, I'm aware there's more, but much of it is relatively inaccessible

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@Breakfast598 in early days of crude oil, a lot of reserves also "inaccessible." We've been told it going to run out any time soon, yet we found more and more reserves. Same is true for lithium deposits, along with other alternatives such as sodium.

[@FriedChairs]

You are just parroting incorrect talking points and your premise is wrong. There’s enough lithium now which is why battery prices are dropping rapidly so this “only for rich” idea is wrong especially since used EV prices are falling. There’s been a lot of investment from miners and they expect battery material costs to continue declining for the next decade at least and yes they are accounting for projected EV growth. You have to be really ignoring easily obtained evidence to be still using this talking point.

[@oqlassic8799]

Is it to hard for you to citing the souces on the description?

[@bobz1736]

His can such savvy successful companies seem to get H2 vehicles so wrong???

[@philliphartman2381]

is not ethanol better than all of these alternatives?

[@someonewhocares999]

Hydrogen cars are a dead end. Hydrogen can work for planes tho

[@GSimpsonOAM]

Unlikely. The energy density of hydrogen by volume is so low compared to kerosine. Hydrogen in 681atm storage tanks is 5MJ per litre Kerosine (jetfuel) is 35MJ per litre. The Hydrogen tanks need to be seven times the size of the current fuel tanks.

[@Nobody-st7xh]

You need electricity to make the hydrogen? EVs with extra steps. 😂

[@randomaccount53793]

Extra steps and also incredibly inefficient. Hydrogen makes the 15% efficiency of ICE cars seem reasonable, until you realize EV's are more like 80% efficient.

[@dulio12385]

Because they can afford to waste it; Its essentially a first mover gamble with money they find under the couch cushions.

[@chrissasin6676]

Electricity is not source of energy

[@UncleJoeLITE]

Story checks out...

[@evilsanta8585]

18 cents a mile isn’t bad considering my 2024 Lexus costs 23 cents a mile

[@leonidas14775]

Hmm.. I got it! Genetically modified Super Horses that can carry multiple people on their backs without a wagon and run at freeway speeds :P Can I have a subsidy?

[@waichui2988]

Hydrogen car has the classic chicken and egg problem. If you do not have a lot of cars running on the street, nobody would invest in building the refueling stations. If you do not have a lot of refueling stations, nobody will buy the cars.