Why Wasn't THIS the FIRST Episode of the SEASON?-Disney Doctor Who S01E07

[@patricklynch1962]

The "first draft" problem seems to have infected everything, not just TV and film. I've read some disappointing novels that felt like I'd read a first draft instead of a finished book. Typing all of those words looks good on the screen but it seems no one wants to write the second or the third draft that would have resulted in a better story. Imagine what it could have been if someone cared enough to take the episode somewhere actually satisfying.

[@mollieandtheoldman]

We think that there was a better story here if they just would have gone through a few edit iterations. Heck, the whole season could have benefited from that. Instead of trying to take that extra Disney money and run as fast as RTD could to crank out episodes, if things were done in a more thoughtful manner and this could have been interesting. I would say maybe season 2 will be different but RTD rushed into making season 2 as fast as he could, so probably not. ** sigh ** Maybe he got better at making rush episodes for season 2? -- Old Man

[@patricklynch1962]

@@mollieandtheoldman I agree with every bit of that. The last fifteen years have been kind of frustrating reading and watching things that felt like first drafts knowing if someone had just polished it a bit more we'd be enjoying modern classics instead of things as Maxwell Smart used to say "missed it by that much".

[@king_dot]

a lot of modern video games have that problem too, haven’t read any novels with that problem recently but I’m not surprised

[@icanwearamasktoo.1066]

His Tardis is a copy he made with a hammer so something has always been off about it 😎

[@GlenFinney]

It was very Bugs Bunny…

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

No the 14th Doctor has the copy The 15th has the original RTD confirm it

[@mollieandtheoldman]

The fact that we are debating which TARDIS is the original when the copy was made with a giant cartoon mallet really sets the tone for where things are now as a franchise -- Old Man

[@ultronemperor3525]

It's called "building up a threat". Every Doctor Who season used it. This made every villain much more scary and efficient

[@mollieandtheoldman]

What building up the threat did they do all season? -- Old Man

[@MrTVintro]

@@mollieandtheoldman The recurring woman, the godlike characters that kept popping up talking about how something worse was coming.

[@mollieandtheoldman]

Neil Patrick Harris throwing flowers while dancing and singing "Spice Girls" along w/ the Maestro yelling about their "mean daddy", isn't setting up anything other than a joke. If Sutekh was the big baddy being set up at the end of this season, doing so with two comic relief characters was a very poor job at doing that -- Old Man

[@icanwearamasktoo.1066]

The Doctor does have a sorta daughter. A humanoid race cloned the Doctor and made a female version of him. She died but came back to life and left to go on her own adventure. The Doctor does not know she's still alive 😎

[@RachelWeick-iq4fr]

He also said he had children in that episode

[@GlenFinney]

@@RachelWeick-iq4frrule #1 the Doctor lies…

[@oddlibrarianout1295]

​@@GlenFinney In the very first episode of the show, the Doctor was introduced with a granddaughter.

[@GlenFinney]

@@oddlibrarianout1295 an unearthly child I’m aware. I was more talking about him saying he hasn’t had a child yet but has a grandchild.

[@Rocket1377]

Russell T. Davies and Steven Moffatt both agreed that she's not coming back. They jokingly admitted that they killed Jenny off offscreen (RTD said she flew straight into an asteroid and her ship exploded right after that final scene!). I think they both got tired of fans asking for a throwaway character like Jenny to be brought back, and regret keeping her alive at the end of the story (she was originally supposed to just remain dead, but they decided that was too much like a Star Trek ending where the guest character always abruptly dies, so they changed the ending). The actress who played her, Georgia Moffat, even complained about her character's fate, and hopes that a future showrunner will change that.

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

Sutekh in Pyramids of the Mars was a powerful alien being and not the the god of gods

[@gladiator652004]

Why aren't plot flaws identified and remedied? My beef is why UNIT, very worried about Susan Triad, takes time out to help establish Ruby's birth mother. Seems very first draft.

[@lesigh1749]

Plot flaws like Susan was left on Earth in the future and couldn't possibly be in 2024. She didn't have a TARDIS, she didn't even have a complete pair of shoes.

[@shinycaterpie4443]

​@lesigh1749 that doesn't make it impossible for her to be in 2024. It would still be possible for her to go back somehow. Maybe she ran into a future version of The Doctor who took her back at some point (or a pre-Hartnell Doctor since we know they canonically exist and that the current Doctor wouldn't remember it happening), or she could run into a different time traveler and got help going back in time, or because she's a timelord she was able to live long enough to get to the point where humans get access to time travel technology and then use it herself to go back.

[@lesigh1749]

@@shinycaterpie4443 And yet it didn't even merit a mention in the conversation that "hang on, I left her centuries in the future with only one shoe, how could she be here and now?" You are I am afraid putting a LOT more thought into explaining this episode than RTD put into writing it. Maybe they should hire you!

[@shinycaterpie4443]

@lesigh1749 what I said is stuff the Doctor would also be fully aware of. He wouldn't need to ask "I left her in the future. How did she get back?" as if he thought it was impossible for that to happen, he knows it's possible. Not only would having him say that be somewhat clunky writing but it would also not make sense for him to be confused about something happening when he would know it's fully possible. RTD can't win either way if he did think it through (we don't know for sure if he did or did not, we can't read his mind). If RTD wrote it to have the Doctor be confused like you want we would instead have people pointing out the same methods I did and complaining "Wtf? The Doctor should know it's possible, Why is he confused? Clearly RTD didn't think this through?"

[@lesigh1749]

@@shinycaterpie4443 RTD never thinks things through, his plots are always random wibble that falls appear under any scrutiny, and thus he expects the audience to enjoy and not think. he is a bad writer and always was.

[@nigelwalker6103]

I've had another thought, which I hesitate to mention. I think the reason that Ncuti's Doctor hasn't taken charge and been basically well the Doctor is that I think now it's got to the point that RTD can't have a man being in charge. Not even a black gay man. It started with Tennant in the Star Beast being criticised about pronouns, and then that awful line "You know nothing and we no everything" also "It's a shame you're not still a woman because she'd have understood. So I think they've deliberately made it so that the Doctor is essentially neutered. Even if David Tennant came back, they couldn't let him save the day because that would make Ncuti look lesser. My prediction is that Ruby will save the day, which will solve her storyline as well, and it will be a deus ex machina. Susan might be in it, but I doubt it.

[@TheBermudaMan]

Sutekh was reserved for the last episode because that's exactly what you do with classic villains; save them for the big event. Putting him in the first episode would have done the character and his legacy a huge disservice.

[@mollieandtheoldman]

We weren't trying to suggest that the Sutekh reveal had to be the first episode. What we were pondering was an episode like this where the foreshadowing was perhaps what was gathered from the time window but not revealed. Then we could have had clues throughout the season leading to what is most likely next week's episode as the finale -- Old Man

[@nigelwalker6103]

The reason this wasn't the first episode is that RTD has nothing else. This is the best he's managed so far. The rest have been pretty gash. As for the line about the Doctor not having kids yet, both the Ninth and Tenth Doctor's have said that they were father's and that was during the RTD era so he should know.

[@mollieandtheoldman]

As we said in another thread, if RTD would slow down and not just sprint to spend money and crank out episodes as fast as possible, maybe he could write more than a couple of good ideas -- Old Man

[@viddysgamingviddyos4710]

My mother nearly gave up on the show with last week's episode, and soon after this episode started with the mysteries unveiling, she said 'this is what I prefer to see in Dr Who' but also was confused about the multitude of characters. Whose mother are we talking about? Who is that new character [mostly about Morris and Harriet the Harbinger]? And so on and so forth, meaning that the episode had a little too many characters to jumble with. I also agree with you that the logic of the Window was a bit weird, but I kinda still liked it because I wish we had that tech for real where we could look at old pictures and videos and uncover something we cannot see. Still, this is easily one of the more fun episodes we've had in a while, and certainly one of the most surprising cliffhangers. While, yes, the new generation of viewers are most likely not shouting excitedly like Classic Who fans are and Sutekh's reveal is a tiny bit out of nowhere just to create a finale, I'm still excited to see next episode, yet am preparing for a somewhat typical deus-ex-machina by RTD.

[@mollieandtheoldman]

We're interested in next week's episode as well. Maybe this will all come together and set up next season as something to be anticipated? -- Old Man

[@dramonmaster222]

I had a feeling you would enjoy this. Also, I 💕 that they are bringing back s Classic Who villain.

[@lesigh1749]

It was said of RTD last time he was running the show that he was a decent first draft writer but needed his work polished by someone else. He hasn't grown as a writer, but that's what happens when you are surrounded by sycophants telling you how great you are. No wonder RTD thinks it takes "a very brave person" to tell him "no".

[@mollieandtheoldman]

We think that there was a story to be told here. But it felt like everything and the kitchen sink was shoved in here. An editor with real power would have done a world of good here. Still, for a whole episode, it seemed like the best of the season even "as is" -- Old Man

[@AGoodPlace365]

Haven't Disney Doctor lost every episode from space baby till this episode, only reason we consider those ep victory because of Deus-ex-machina or some one else did something, there has been no victory purely from Disny Doctoes actions/ from his end, Which use to be 90 to 95%+ victory from Doctor's knowledge/ interference, Leadership and actions in the previous seasons but not now, These all episodes seem to be made to insult Doctor and by extent may be the actor I don't know

[@wotaj]

What a terrible way to re-introduce Sutekh.🤨😑

[@STOTTINMAD]

Keeping in line with grounding the Doctor. Having the Tardis being stolen into the eternity corridor would have been an amusing middle finger by Su

[@DoctorHowTV]

Sutekh in real Dr Who was a deadly clever alien, but not a god. The novelisation explains that. In the new series, maybe it's all just magic that can be invoked by singing a song or something, and Sutekh feels the need to announce himself using an English anagram or portmanteau because that's a thing a deadly clever alien does in 2024 apparently.

[@myphone4590]

The Master did that sort of thing teasing the third doctor because he was an old school chum who had come to earth in response to the Doctor's exile. The first Master basically showed up in jodpurs and a pith helmet to conquer and civilize the natives to make his friend's stay tolerable, and the Doctor was going "dude, no, respect the locals' culture please". The relationship made sense in context, the master didn't (initially) want to _defeat_ the doctor, he was happy to play ball.

[@SKIP-yj3xp]

This Doctor is too emotional, he's always crying, I preferred it when he was more standish with people, not so friendly, he acted more alien, like the 4th and12th Doctors. The series reboot can't succeed without connecting new stories to classic who, it provides the source material for the reboot. The appeal of Doctor Who is its long history. You need this connection to keep the old fans and make the new fans curious enough to watch the classic show. The Time Window is an updated version of the Space-Time Visualizer from the First Doctor's story "The Chase" from 1965. His companions used it to view historical events. They saw Lincoln's speech at Gettysburg and Queen Victoria's Court, they even had a scene with The Beatles from the early sixties. The Beatles scene has been cut from the story, for about the last 20 years, probably for copyright reasons. I have an interesting thought, in "The Parting of the Ways" the Doctor says once the Tardis lands he becomes part of events, so if the Tardis had the Sutekh infection in the present and he went back to the past to Ruby Road, he would have infected that moment with Sutekh's presence. That's why Sutekh showed up in the tape. These originally could have been two separate events that became entangled with each other.

[@AGoodPlace365]

25+ years of my life i have never pointed at a street lamp/post or road signe, Or any of my friends who want to point at it just jurk their chin or say look ahead and we understand from where they are looking by basic body language, No one points at a street signe espically when they are alone, atleast around here

[@Random_Tangent]

I figured the bigeneration was Disneys way of splitting their Doctors from the BBC Doctors for future ownership rights. A bit of a let down that Ruby was ordinary yet made snow appear. Her mystery was something built up during this season along with Mrs Flood and Susan Twist (who suddenly became Triad, who conveniently became sutekh). As for these callbacks to old BBC villains & characters like the Doctors Granddaughter, a newer audience has no clue about them so it seems like they are for old fans... or Russell is just lazy and knows that the new audience doesnt know them and he can remake them himself?

[@darktenor4967]

Okay first thing which really is irritating here are all the references to Susan! It’s probably a waste of time to point out continuity here but the Doctor actually has! Gone back and met Susan again. ~In the rather lovely 8th doctor stories relative dimensions, and Earthly child, in which he even meets Susan’s son Alex; played in fact by Paul Mcgan’s son. And then helps Susan fight off a second Dalek invasion along with Lucy Miller throughout the final season of the Lucy Miller sequence. This resulted in the deaths of both Lucy and Alex, deaths which have a profound effect on the 8th doctor (Lucy’s death is an especially awesome moment, easily one of the best companion exits in who history). Indeed, it was one of the cleverest points of audio story telling, to have the Daleks put the 8th doctor through the ringer, making him very much the man who would! Destroy the Daleks and time lords together to end the last great time war. Lucy at least has also been mentioned on screen, ---- but mmmm, now we’re forgetting all that, likely so that the Doctor can end up getting pregnant or some other nonsense! Sutek coming back I don’t mind as much, albeit it’s very much just a name at this point, and there doesn’t seem much interesting in Sutek as opposed to other elder gods. I will say the audios that featured him, the 2018 4th doctor stories kill the doctor and age of Sutek weren’t fantastic, but at least did something more interesting with the idea, setting Sutek’s return on a future space colony where he was controlling everyone through touch screen devices, and only those whose fingers couldn’t be read by the screens were immune (if they go and tie Sutek to this Susan woman’s software next episode, I call plagiarism!. As for the episode itself, It very much sounds like Russel was trying a repeat of the bad wolf thing, with a continuity drop over the hole series which leads to the finale. The problem is where Bad wolf was almost casually dropped in all the other episodes (it’s even in novels featuring Rose and the 9th Doctor), until the characters finally realised it, this is harder to do with such a blatant thing as a snow storm and a continually appearing woman. The synopses did mention that the Disney Doctor was actually upset when the guy got turned to sand, which I suppose is somewhat of an improvement, albeit all of the stuff about how the time window was over powered by Ruby’s emotions or whatever sounded pretty cringey. To answer the old man, there actually is an audio series based on the new unit featuring Kate Leftbridge stewart, though I’ve not checked those out myself as I’m less keen on the 12th doctor era. Btw, interesting you describe the 4th doctor in Pyramids of Mars as unemotional. This is actually why the 4th doctor has always been one of my less favourite Doctors, since he almost felt too competent, too safe. You rarely see him rattled or up against something he needs to take seriously. Of course Gatwa’s Disney Doctor takes things to the opposite extreme, and is so overly emotional he’s virtually useless, but there is a happy medium, , which most of the Doctors actually struck very well. Heck, the 3rd Doctor’s death in planet of the spiders, where even he confronts something he is afraid of which he knows will kill him always hits me precisely because! Of how up himself the 3rd doctor usually is. As I’ve said before though, this is why Disney Doctor is not the Doctor! Also btw, I actually love the 6th doctor, he’s in fact one of the most popular audio doctors. In his final season trial of a timelord (one of my favourite classic who stories), they tone down the arrogance and the down right abusive behaviour, and in the audios, you see him as a much nicer character, still with a brash streak, but with far more decency and gentleness. Far more like the real Colin Baker, who I have actually met in real life and whose a jolly nice chap (and a fellow G&s enthusiast). One of the finest companions in Dr. who history is Evelyn smithe, played by the late Maggy Stables, who is a 50 year old history professor, and who first appears in the story the Marian conspiracy, and travels with the doctor through a number of outings. Colin Baker has said himself, if anyone could be described as the Doctor’s wife, it was Evelyn! Not in a romantic sense, but in the sense of someone whose his intellectual equal, and in her own way just as competent! I would highly recommend checking out some of the 6th doctor’s audio adventures, since possibly as much as the 8th Doctor, they really gave him chance to show the better sides of his character which the writing let down so badly throughout several of his tv stories. (much as I am a 6th Doctor fan, I am definitely not going to try and defend twin dilemma).

[@AGoodPlace365]

Ha watched the last episode in my smartphone and now my phone is crashing, tells u about the quality of the episode if a literal hardware starts to fail from logic overload

[@GusMcGuire]

I would respectfully disagree with you about the idea that no British person would want to see the signing of the American Declaration of Independence. It is, after all, a part of history that we were kind of unwillingly involved with, and many British people would be naturally curious. Let's face it, we had the British Empire at one point, and that wasn't achieved by sitting at home and not being curious about what was happening overseas. I've visited Independence Hall in Philadelphia and have touched the Liberty Bell (though I'm probably dating myself by saying that as I understand that they don't allow visitors to touch the bell anymore). And I'm sure that, from UNIT's point of view, it's always wise to see what 'the other side' is up to 😉. The part of the episode that still escapes me is why was Ruby told she couldn't move when in the Time Window device? They kept telling her she had to stand still because the image needed to be from a fixed point. But why? Ruby wasn't there when the image was created (well, she was, but she was a baby on the steps of the church in a completely different location). The image was extrapolated from the information on the video tape. And the Doctor and Colonel Chidozi were both able to freely move. I can't see any narrative reason why Ruby wasn't allowed to move. It just seemed to be a rule contrived purely to provide an artificially "heart-rending" moment when Ruby wails because some woman she's never known, who abandoned her on the steps of a church, was walking away and she couldn't see who it was.

[@Rocket1377]

The time window idea isn't just very similar to the Timeslides episode of Red Dwarf, it's also extremely reminiscent of the 50th anniversary DW special, although that story featured a painting of Gallifrey the characters could enter, not a photograph.

[@SKIP-yj3xp]

The Time Window is an updated version of the Space-Time Visualizer from the First Doctor's story "The Chase". His companions used it to view historical events. They even had a scene with The Beatles from the early sixties.

[@gladiator652004]

We also know that Doctor Who is made for an American audience by the fact that it is now released at midnight here in Britain, for American convenience!

[@nealgrimes4382]

RTD has said as much interviews It's made for American audiences now, i took this as insult having been a lifelong Brit fan and part of the fanbase that made it great in the first place, i find out it's not made for me anymore, just as well really as it is badly written hack garbage.

[@davidny212]

On the bright side, you aren't watching The Acolyte ;)

[@AGoodPlace365]

I am waiting for the review of Dr.Not last ep, because after Watch the episode I didn't get the references but something tells me there were lot of references to old Who, if not this is worst than waste of time

[@SilverFoxUK87]

Disney doctor cries - the end

[@WhiteDragon689]

This is unwatchable.

[@ChaosCreator4395]

I don’t know what Disney has to do for people to like New New Doctor who, This episode is by far the best episode in the entire series and it isn’t even done yet since it’s a two parter I think they’ll need to make heaven sent 2 for anyone to appreciate the hard work and effort that goes into making an episode this good

[@mollieandtheoldman]

We didn't care of Heaven Sent so going that route wouldn't make it any better for us. We agree that this was the best of the season if we're talking the full episode and perhaps this will be a starting point for going into next season to improve -- Old Man

[@jumbojaba1235]

@@mollieandtheoldmanyou didn’t like heaven sent… I mean I’m all for differing opinions but that really is a masterclass episode, I think you should watch it again

[@DoodsUnited]

I can understand Scottish people normally, but for this Dr. I need subtitles, dood. (Not a native speaker)