Why We Aren't Playing Shadowrun 6th Edition Any More

[@majorjohnson8001]

20:40 - "a lot of their freelancers left over pay disputes..." If by "disputes" you mean "Catalyst tried not to pay them what was promised and the freelancers objected" then yes.

[@Dragondan1987]

That might explain why this book feels like it has less artwork and honestly... Good, this books art looks like crap compared to 5e. It's like they went to a art school and asked the freshman to draw it with no instructions or oversight.

[@poilboiler]

@@Dragondan1987 At that point they were probably the only ones willing to doing unpaid work for craptalyst.

[@MargaretKrohn]

I'm sad to see this ending because I love the world of SR so much, and really love the characters we created, but I hope everyone understands and that we were able to provide just reasoning for our decision. #rollLove

[@blueneonfox]

Would much rather SR be dropped rather than it be allowed to tank the show. Good choice made.

[@DCVM93]

I absolutely love the world of SR, but this edition was a rushed, convoluted mess. Rules were unclear, spread all across the book, totally missing, or just... Just. It's such a shame, because I feel like the cyberpunk genre is gaining in popularity, (In no small part to the Cyberpunk game) and a truly GOOD edition could have done wonders for the community and really seen a lot of growth. Instead it seems to me that because of the excitement for the genre they rushed out a incomplete, subpar product that is gonna leave a bad taste in players mouths both new and old...

[@danieldomeisen2632]

could you use 5e for rules and 6e for character creation? I too love the world of Shadowrun, sadly this was a great review of the rules and i think i will wait until 7e to play.

[@The_Murder_Party]

Daniel Domeisen 5th is functional, just takes a little learning, and we have a lot of extra rulebooks.

[@dragoneye6229]

​@@danieldomeisen2632 I suggest 2e, 3e, or 4e. I also suggest just playing any other game. Cyberpunk can be fun but in the modern world it's going to be hard to find anyone to play since Cyberpunk is the metal of RPG's. You can't have the emotional armor of a Faberge egg while playing in a DYSTOPIAN setting though, the point of dystopia is to show the worst. Shadowrun is all about hammering players on the head with how bad the world is. Hence you see terms like trog, tree hugger, squat, breeder, dandelion eater, dataslave, wageslave, deckhead, halfer, keeb, mundo or mundie, pawn, pixie, squishy, suit, razorboy/girl, tusker, vatjob, wagemage, wizard, and wizworm tossed around nonstop.

[@dynath1]

Thank god some of the influencers are actually admitting this is bad. The shadowcasters network is just cheering this on over and over in spite of it just being terrible.

[@The_Murder_Party]

Dynath Kajira I was Right it‘d be Bad! Still 5e is functional with a very steep learning curve.

[@Bergerons_Review]

It's unbalanced as hell. You have to adjust it with houserules or it's broken.

[@stuartharam1742]

All of this makes me love SR3 more. SR5 was tolerable for the corporate sins campaign on HyperRPG with Randomtuesday, i understood limits and thought they worked if a bit odd. Edge in SR3 is the name for a positive trait, you had to choose to spend you're hard earned Karma on rerolls or character development. Have you thought about trying an older FASA Shadowrun system?

[@AAron-gr3jk]

I understand 3e was more gonzo flavour than 4e? More Akira than The Matrix? I haven't played 3rd. I stepped in at 4e: SR4A was more flexible than SR5, even though admittedly the matrix action was clearer in 5e. But 5e steered you towards particular archetypes, whereas in 4e you could create completely off the wall concepts with the point buy system. I loved crafting vehicles and gear in 4Ae. I haven't played 6th... So i'm curious to hear what this video has to say about it. If it turns out the system is unplayable, then I see a decline of SR in favour of Cyberpunk Red. The SR systems have always been criticised, and Cyberpunk Red is about to get massive amounts of hype in the coming 2 years. With the amounts of Art commissioned for 5e and 6e, this must have been a costly endeavour for Catalyst labs.

[@stuartharam1742]

Point buy is in SR3, as is weapon crafting, armoured fashion brands, vehicle crafting, deck crafting to some extent etc. Allergies and phobias work as flaws giving you the option of stronger edges. 3 is the pinnacle for me.

[@unregisteredaccount6555]

Sr4 and 5 were also cash grabs, but in the veins of keeping the game 'alive'. So to speak and dare I say relevant. Rolling dice for the sake of rolling more dice in a nod to white wolf's new editons. 3rd edition IS Shadowrun. Same with dnd 3.5/ pathfinder.

[@martinwolff4102]

@@stuartharam1742 I agree; I've played since 1st and 3rd holds a special place in my heart. I still prefer 4th Edition's Matrix rules, though, because 1st through 3rd Matrix was still a different game entirely.

[@stuartharam1742]

True, same could be said in some part for mages and riggers though tbh. At least in third they provided some options for simplified matrix, as well as further complicated options like decking into a rigger network. at least all the rules work XD

[@picipici6891]

To be honest we are absolutely love to play 3rd edition with my mates. I also suggest it to you all who like the world of Shadowrun. Don't be disappointed. I guess it's better to look at the bright side of it rather than searching for flaws. Of course it has as everything else but hey it's point is to stick together, planning out good teamworks, to be creative and most important: having fun Have a nice day deckers and razorboys, chipheads and shamans🥰

[@thant0s]

While understandable, it's very unfortunate. The DM and cast deserved much better than 6e Shadowrun!

[@lordofdarkness3774]

Tbf, having watched other streams from this channel, both the difficulties of the rules, and the frustration and apathy of the players with those rules, was clear from the first prologue. Which is a shame, because Shadowrun is a fantastic idea, as a setting. But it just feels like with each successive iteration, the development team brief is boiling down to "Head of development: "Well, at least we can't make things worse......." Development Team : "Hold my beer.......".

[@rossnorris2351]

Lol and sadly true.

[@Hauwke764]

It really come to a head in the previous episode, you could feel the tension and hair pulling. It sucked so hard that it was happening. I really like the Shadowrun universe and besides Mathas and his VTM, I think Shadowrun has the best stories. But I think it will be a long time before we see Shadowrun again.

[@Overthinker89]

I’m in my third year running and playing shadowrun and my group will be sticking with 5th ed for the foreseeable future.

[@sgtbuck5933]

Got my copies of second edition from ebay for like $10 a book, got me a new crew, ready to run!

[@unregisteredaccount6555]

So welcome to 3rd then lol. Simply 2nd edition improved, and compatible.

[@jimpyre5038]

Ryan Arbuckle I still have the first edition book.

[@picipici6891]

Have a lucky run Sir, get those credsticks!

[@TheRolfnaberink]

I understand the decision. Why not kick it up with sr5? Would love to see more shadowrun plays

[@majorjohnson8001]

SR5 was developed by the same people that developed 6, taking all of the bad ideas they came up with in 5 and making them worse. The last reasonably good edition was 4th. (But I've heard amazing things about 3rd, but I have only gotten to play it once)

[@madmanwithaplan1826]

@@majorjohnson8001 i feel like the matrix was better in 5 in that it really managed to stamp down on the pizza time effect of earlier editions

[@majorjohnson8001]

@@madmanwithaplan1826 You're right that "pizza time" is/was kind of a problem, but 5th's matrix rules still didn't "work" for me. Most of that comes from how the matrix interacted with other things. "Why can't I turn off the wireless in my cyber?" "Because then hackers would be sad and have nothing to do."

[@madmanwithaplan1826]

@@majorjohnson8001 I totally agree if it has a wifi then you can turn off the wifi has always been my rule on that. i like the access levels along with the consolidated skills of 6e. that and the split cost of nuyen and essence(its way to high tbh and needs to be lower) of decking just attack rating and sleaze need to do different things now that the limits are gone but it means you can improve your deck more quickly. i think direct connections needs to be a thing again along with noise being eliminated while connected to a host from distance.

[@darthmaul833]

5 in my opinion is really fun.

[@nexviper]

Sad to hear this is ending the Shadowrun series as it brought me back to the channel after almost 2 years away (for various reasons). Totally understandable though given the issues.

[@TheStormWolf10]

Me personally I thought 5e was good despite some quirks though tbh I started sr with fifth so idk about the others lol Tbh if 6e is way too bugged ftm why not reboot twilight sins with 5e or heck even 3 or 4e and just mod it up with elements from 5 and 6 e that works if modded d&d (or in this case modded vtm) can work why not sr?

[@rossnorris2351]

I started Shadowrun in 2nd ed. They are starting to get a lil bit more complicated. 5th wasn't too bad at all. I preferred 3rd or 4th, but 5th is workable. I'm guessing this book is on shelves currently. I have and always will love Shadowrun, I just hope this bad edition doesn't kill it.

[@TheStormWolf10]

Doubt it omae shadowrun is up there with cyberpunk vtm(or any Wod property) d&d and pathfinder this beast will recover lol

[@rossnorris2351]

@@TheStormWolf10 I hope so chummer. If it does I'm going to be heart broken.

[@TheStormWolf10]

Aye

[@radred609]

@@TheStormWolf10 we're probably going to have to wait for the license to be given to someone else

[@RufusMcTwigglefart]

Yeah, the 6e system is just bad. Get that feeling it was pushed out to ride that hype train for Cyberpunk.

[@joabeMT]

That and SR's 30th anniversary... Disappointing...

[@alanjervis9022]

If they had done 30a off of 5e the way they did 20a off of 4e, this could've been avoided. One of the biggest complaints about 5e was the editing, which was also a complaint about 4e yet not a problem with 20a. Most SR players did not want a new edition, they wanted a fixed edition.

[@RufusMcTwigglefart]

@@alanjervis9022 That'd be a nice change of pace, wouldn't it?

[@deejaytubbster8983]

Plus to release it BEFORE Cyberpunk Red (PnP) and Cyberpunk 2077 (Game)

[@RufusMcTwigglefart]

@@deejaytubbster8983 Exactly

[@WolfOfLegend]

For anyone who needs it Starts: 1:35

[@seanmohrhoff502]

Shadowrun as a concept was indeed a great one and I was fortunate enough to be at the GenCon when they released the first edition. It has a rich background and a cosmology dating back to '89 with all its supplements and novels. Sadly, the system has always needed some work since first ed. Whenever we played SR in the past, we adapted it using GURPS rules. I bought 4e 20th Anniversary edition some time back and it is a sight easier than 1st ed. on up but only marginally. It might have been better if they had completely changed the system instead of altering it so severely as to make older material almost unusable.

[@machmuelltonne]

So it is as I expected: At the End of SR4 most of the good Freelancers and the Line Dev left over some issues. It is going downhill ever since... I really liked your in depth discussion. Pegasus (the Publisher of the German Version of Shadowrun) will fix most of the layout editing issues, but the bad rules will sadly not be fixable (except small errata things). I will probably wait for Cyberpunk RED and not pick up SR6. I would really like you to play "Legends of the 5 Rings" RPG from FFG in the Future!

[@martinwolff4102]

I definitely think Catalyst need to partner with Pegasus; for those of us who can read and speak German, there is no reason to pick up an English sourcebook because Pegasus will just release an objectively better version. I'll give SR6 a try once the next set of errata hits, or whenever Pegasus releases the CRB.

[@andyhall870]

Sooooo... Dark Heresy then?

[@thespecter1530]

I second this

[@strategicowl192]

I think EE has enough 40k stuff with two Rouge Trader games but I gotta admit it would be fun

[@thespecter1530]

@@strategicowl192 Yea, it's definitely unlikely, but a man can dream. I prefer the heavy emphasis on RP that they do on Roll4it, but the other shows are great too!

[@Mr._Matt]

I approve. I approve greatly.

[@ericm3327]

YESSSSS

[@Nionivek]

5e to me was Shadowrun making some mistakes but fixing some that were long overdue. A sort of one step forward, two steps back sort of deal. Whatever 6th edition needed to be was to take the good ideas 5e brought to the table (Making certain archtypes more viable and allowing others to enter the play area) and remembering what people loved about Shadowrun. I LOVE Shadowrun in spite all its faults (The completely uneven characters, the nonsense money system, The "Stop having fun" magic drain, the exp sinks, The Decker problem, The Astral Combat problem), its strengths always shined brighter than its flaws… So 6th edition must be PRETTY horribly bad! It must make 5th edition look like a masterpiece.

[@jeanphare8318]

All they had to do to 5e to make it work was tweak it slightly and have someone actually edit the book.

[@demonlaharldraws6685]

If your familiar with fantasy flights genesys rpg system, there's a free 600 plus page pdf shadowrun setting and ruleset made by fans, and I've played it a bit and it's really good, might be worth a look

[@TheMorrigan31]

Wait that sounds amazing!!! Do you have a link?

[@demonlaharldraws6685]

@@TheMorrigan31 can't link it for some reason, but Google genesys shadowrun and the second link which is to the ffg forums, there's a Google link in there

[@TheMorrigan31]

@@demonlaharldraws6685 alright thanks! ^^

[@thewok]

Regarding Accuracy in 5E, that is to model that different firearms are inherently more accurate than others, even when using the same round. The physical limit was meant to show the character’s ability itself. Since firearms are the “great equalizer,” Accuracy replaces the physical limit, allowing a low-strength character to still be able to use a firearm effectively.

[@anonanonymous1988]

Strength still comes into play with recoil compensation.

[@josharchibald4637]

My group and I actually really like rolling initiative every round. It keeps combat dynamic. I never liked static initiatives.

[@bombadilo4276]

1:55:00 It's really funny, I'm from Germany, and I am GM'ing Shadowrun 5e for a group of friends. In Germany, 6e launches at the end of October and we all were briefly debating whether we should switch to 6e at that point. I sent them the link to this video just as I found it today. And minutes after I told them that there still might hope for us as Pegasus tends to take good care of the IP in Germany I hear you talking about the same thing^^ Bummer that they apparently botched it that badly in the english version. I really love the Shadowrun world and regulary find myself mildly annoyed by some complicated rules in 5e, but it's just sad that 6e completely spoiled the fun in it for you. I will now proceed to mine all your previous shadowrun episodes for inspiration for my own game :D

[@niduroki]

Ganz ehrlich glaube ich nicht, dass man aus dem … Müllhaufen … der SR6 ist etwas gutes machen kann, ohne das ganze System neu zu schreiben. Ein wenig tut mir Pegasus Spiele Leid, das übersetzen zu müssen … (I don't think Pegasus will be able to make something great out of the dumpster fire that is SR6, without completely rewriting it - I feel a bit sorry for Pegasus having to translate SR6)

[@martinwolff4102]

I honestly don't think this is a good representation of SR6; I've been reading the rules for the past few days, while watching the Sins series, and the group just wasn't ready. Without even a basic level of system knowledge they jumped off the deep end. I'll be the first to admit that SR6 is far from perfect, but no edition of Shadowrun has been that at launch. Does it have editing issues? Yes. Does it have layout issues? Yep! Does it have rules inconsistencies? Oh yeah, definitely. But I also don't think it's fair to call it a dumpster fire, or that it's trash. Some of the issues this group got into was not knowing the basic rules; having to constantly look up what actions they could take and what skill and attribute does what slowed the game down to a halt. That could have happened in ANY edition of Shadowrun. The player for m3m3 was really the only one with a degree of system mastery; she was great, and knew what her dice pools were, what here action options were, and what the GM needed to roll to oppose. If the rest of the group were at her level, this could have gone very differently. That being said, I've been using a borrowed GenCon copy of 6th Edition, and I plan on waiting until Pegasus releases their version before buying that. But then again, I've done so for a majority of Shadowrun releases since Pegasus started providing the German version. It's just better quality throughout.

[@niduroki]

@@martinwolff4102 With *actual* system mastery you quickly get into what Bentham talked about some mechanisms (especially magic) being *totally* overpowered, thus becoming a silent-agreement between player and GM: "You don't use it, I don't use it." which is pretty lame tbh. "Yeah I *can* just pump my spell up to 11 and resist drain with pre-edge to not even get any drain at all, but let's not do that, because it's unfair" (yes I actually had that happen in a session of mine - magician dealt 11 damage with an amped up fireball, used pre-edge to resist drain - rolled enough successes to take *zero* drain). Additionally the rules are (from my experience) just *too* much to know all at once - especially the more obscure stuff like rigging and technomancy. For SR5 I had to rewrite the rules myself, in order for them to make *any* sense at all, and to have them all memorized, or organized in a way to quickly look them up (rather than rules being hidden in a page of free-form text). With SR6 it's basically the same, imho. Additionally, additionally: Rules intense games isn't what most people (I play with at least) like, but Shadowrun is *the* go-to Cyberpunk RPG, so you play Shadowrun and become disappointed, because you just can't be bothered to learn 300 pages of rules, when you want a story-driven rules-light RPG-experience. (especially true if you have stream-viewers who haven't read the rules, and don't just have to explain the rules to your players but the audience, too)

[@AfterAlchemy]

"Page number XX" has appeared in many W.o.D. books.

[@ModdingMonkey]

I am sitting here with me 3rd edition rule book checking things you complain about and finding them to be not an issue, seems like the rules got worse and worse over time. While a bit crunchy it seems quite a bit simpler, more precise and not contradicting itself, you might want to have a look at that if you dislike the newer editions!

[@solanumlycopersicum5594]

I started RPGs with a brand new SR4. When 5 came out, I looked around for an altenative, and was surprised to find SR3 satisfied almost all of my needs. Even the Matrix is good. Its Achilles Heel is its formatting.

[@PrezPendejo]

The funny thing wrt CGL's bad editing, poorly laid out books, and sometimes glaring errors and omissions in the rules (also I've seen people complain about bad bindings) were problems with the old FASA books too. Of course the actual game and especially the writing was so much better.

[@eldritchedward]

@@solanumlycopersicum5594 I disliked the matrix in everything but 5e, but I can see why one would prefer SR3 on many other counts.

[@solanumlycopersicum5594]

@@eldritchedward 5E definitely abstracted it to the point where they made a good mechanic. But 3rd ED's Matrix is VERY playable as well, the dungeon-like thing was already dropped at that point.

[@frostbyte000jm]

What about moving to Shadow Run: Anarchy?

[@niduroki]

From my experience SR:A is basically only meant for oneshots, with an obvious "Hey, you like this game? Why don't you play 5e then 😏" I wrote about SR:A some while ago (shameless plug: niduroki.net/rant-shadowrun-anarchy-is-bad-too/ ) and reading this again/recalling SR:A in my mind it seriously looks like CGL tried incorporating some of the SR:A rules, while SR:A itself is rather "broken", too.

[@thewok]

Niduroki That tracks with my experience as well. Anarchy plays okay, but it really breaks down when you start to add karma into mix. Starting characters are more powerful than they are in numbered editions of SR (or maybe roughly equivalent to prime runners?), and the improvements and advancements are priced cheaply enough that you start to become very powerful very quickly. The GM then needs to either arbitrarily fudge the numbers in combat or just increase the numbers of opponents so much that you might as well be Neo taking on the Agents Smith in the Matrix sequels. As a rigger, I destroyed entire armies on my own, since drones are just flavor for more actions per turn. With no hard cap on actions, I had three flying drones, 1 Doberman, and wired reflexes. All used my automatics and melee skills, rather than a solid, but not as good, autosoft. I was getting 5-7 attacks per turn, and I barely spent any karma after character generation. Anarchy is great for people who want to do short games and like the world. But, if you’re going to run a campaign, it’s very much worth getting a numbered edition for longer-termed play.

[@frostbyte000jm]

Damn that sucks. They really need a good rules lite version for those of us that love the world, but hate the system.

[@niduroki]

@@frostbyte000jm Not just you. Really hoping for some Blades in the Dark Hack of Shadowrun/Cyberpunk being good. Karma in the Dark … Runners in the Dark … Hack the Planet … Maybe Null Vector John Harper is working on … haven't read any of these yet … Blades is wonderful as a heist game.

[@thewok]

@@frostbyte000jm They really do. Our group wanted a rules-lite Shadowrun game, because we only play once a month, and we forget a lot of the rules all the time. I usually spend half the game with my nose in the book so I can see how things are supposed to work before I do them. I love Shadowrun, and I like the core system they've got going on. I was hoping Edge would simplify all that fiddly stuff in combat, but it apparently doesn't. To quote the President, "Sad."

[@rogerp.4375]

I've played Shadowrun since first edition back in the late '80s, and I feel second edition was the best, with the exception of incorporating the matrix, which was best in fifth edition. It's the lore that I love, and second edition had the most quality contributions.

[@anthonyhansel9175]

Matrix anything is a headache waiting to happen in 2e, but otherwise it is by far the best version. SR is still one of my favorites, still play 2e to this day.

[@joshuabrown722]

I'd like to see more roll4it crew talk about game systems. (Even just EE would be cool)

[@bobartsmith236]

It's a shame it's ending as I was really enjoying the characters, stories and people involved. It's understandable though, no one wants to play game with poor rules and it no good carrying on if you don't enjoy it. Hope the characters make a reappearance in some fashion sometime down the road. Keep up the great RP :)

[@user-jv7gr1jb3r]

Those rules totally bogged down any RP. It's a min/max heaven I bet.

[@johnkobs6086]

Oddly this makes me happy. My group just recently decided to add another system and we debated heavily on going with Shadowrun 4th or 6th (bad reviews of 5th eliminating it). Being in the camp of wanting to wait for 6th, I am glad I lost the debate and am excited for the upcoming 4e game. Thank you for the very honest review.

[@johnkobs6086]

Continuing to watch the review makes me torn. I want to rally a "Fix SR6!" homebrew soooo bad, but on the other side, I am concerned this would support poor behavior by the dev. At the same time I really don't want this world to fade into oblivion. I really like the odd mash up it offers. First world problems are a b!tch.

[@timkai]

~1:59:30 This is not the first time that EE has talked about other ttrpg shows being "not good people", but I'm honestly clueless about this. Any examples? I've tried googling a little bit, but I'm not even sure what keywords to use!

[@typeNtardis]

Based solely on my own experience as a RPG KZbinr I'm gonna guess he means DawnforgedCast. He hired trolls to destroy an indie RPG project I was hired to create along with two other KZbinrs, just because he was afraid the people behind it might overshadow his channel by actually creating something. The trolls ruined the video comments sections and the investors saw that and assumed it was organic feedback, and pulled funding.

[@seanvigil2899]

Thanks for the honest critique of 6e, been on the fence about it. So I'll just stick with 5e for now.

[@starforge9785]

I am so bummed out. The show was just hitting it's stride with m3m3 starting to dig into connie's background and the professor having a conversation with the enemy mage instead of fighting has made this one of my favorite actual plays. The system is trash but the characters are so good

[@Hauwke764]

The characters are awesome, and I really do hope they figure out a way to continue their story.

[@Ghastly_Grinner]

Honestly I had no idea they were doing Shadowrun again I'm not going to lie after Splat and Aavak left I punched out hard when i heard that 6e came out I was hoping that the guys might come back those gentlemen really knew how to run a good old fashioned Run and Gun game of Shadowrun Long burst of APDS from a Arries Alpha be still my aching heart but alas it was not meant to be i guess 😢

[@Hauwke764]

@@Ghastly_Grinner They were really good at being loud and proud.

[@Ghastly_Grinner]

@@Hauwke764 Nobody knew how to go Full Tremor brothers like that first party 😢Blowback was a fucking artist with that Arries

[@sharkforce8147]

huh. i guess you missed something on spirits. they all have hardened armour equal to their force, it's part of the manifestation rules. so a force 6 spirit is plenty tough, they start by reducing damage taken by 6 and then they get to roll their dice to resist. so... good news, there is actually a reason to use a force 6 spirit for something. with all the lower damage values, they can frequently just bounce even heavier weapons off their skin like it was nothing.

[@niduroki]

Ack. Spirits soak [Force Level] hits automatically - this was just copy-pasted from 5e. But weapon damage decreased, so everything up until machine guns don't even have a considerable chance of dealing damage to a F6 spirit. To quote the rules stating this manifestation, hardened armor bull****: "The attacker is allowed to be annoyed." - Cool.

[@sharkforce8147]

@@niduroki yeah, just realized my tone didn't come across... "good news" was intended to be heard sarcastically. as in "good news, spirits are even more broken than you thought they were!"

[@jacobgrimm9475]

I got into SR and RPG's in general on 2nd edition. I played it mostly as a GM throughout my teens. I skipped 3rd ed. I bought and played 4th ed a bit and 5th even less. Based on my observations and after listening to this discussion it sounds like as things get more stream lined the quality also drops off. I like the updates to the SR Lore that has been added over the years. (Commlinks and Technomancers) I think the Matrix rules have always been the biggest mess though. But there has been improvements over time. I miss when there were only Mages and Shamans and they both had very distinct styles.I miss 2nd Ed Initiative when your Street Samurai could get 2 turns before the average gangers even get to pull their guns. Made them feel so cool.

[@AAron-gr3jk]

So much reference to "an Editor", the line manager for Shadowrun at Catalyst Games is Jason Hardy since the end of 4rth Edition, replacing Rob Boyle.

[@LonelyTengu]

As someone who is trying to run 4th edition SR and, due to seemingly no interest, is considering running 5th and potential 6th as the most recent SR release, I found this very very helpful. I knew that 6th had a world of problems and even recall it being referred to as "a mistake that never should have happened" but never knew specifics. So, this was helpful in fleshing the problems out. It's always a shame when games end, but if the system just isn't working then it's always a good idea to end before the strain really really kicks in. Edit: Also, I love the Horn and Ivory kicking in at the hour mark. Love that song. Also, I've been looking at Cities Without Number as an alternative to try running Shadowrun in as, from what I am aware, the full version includes spirits, magic, and the ability to create mutant ("metatypes") characters.

[@gurpsman9244]

Shadowrun 4E 20th anniversary + Ends of the Matrix rules my friends. Has to be the best version of shadowrun I've ever read

[@BostonDeadHead]

I agree as someone who has played since 1990 4th 20th anniversary was nice. It still had some quarks but it was really well done.

[@Chroniclerope]

Is there someone I can talk to about 4E? My group is looking to run shadow run and we are looking for a system to use.

[@martinwolff4102]

@@Chroniclerope It's been a while since I played 4th Edition, but we played for years. Hit me up if you have any questions; the 4th Anniversary Edition has some flaws but for the most part, as long as everyone in your group agrees to not powergame TOO much those can be overcome. It can have a steep learning curve, though, but that much is true for all editions of Shadowrun.

[@RavenShinyThings]

Why not start again with Shadowrun anarchy as the two supplements and core book give a good base to run a varied game.

[@TimAlmasy]

Highly recommend the Genesys RPG is you wanna keep doing Shadowrun. There's even decent hacks out there for the system already.

[@kevinbraun3295]

My gaming group and I have been thinking about doing this

[@TimAlmasy]

It's just such a good system. My group got into it with the Star Wars RPG that FFG make and ran that for almost two years and had a blast. I was so delighted to see them come out with the generic version of the system that I can spin to whatever ends I need. Though only thing I can really criticize about it are the weird proprietary dice being an extra barrier to entry, and a pain in the ass to set up on roll20 but that's another story, but even that's grown on me after all this time.

[@brandonteppelin6353]

I don't see the draw. If I have to buy special dice beyond the polyhedral ones, as in ones with special faces, then that's a hard nope for me. FFG is just a money hungry company wanting all those bucks for none of the decent reasons. Savage Worlds is better

[@TimAlmasy]

@@brandonteppelin6353 I get the dice hate for sure, I was there once upon a time until someone else bought me a set of the dice so I wasn't personally out much, but Savage Worlds is... not what I would personally consider a good game. Functional, yes, and it can be fun, but the math is real bad.

[@damonshiley9791]

@AcceptableLosses, would you have a link to the Genesys hack?

[@strategicowl192]

Little update for Shadowrun 5e German: you can look at it for free, but can also buy it. I hope it's legal but it's the first result when searching "shadowrun 5 pdf german". there also is the beginners rulebook for free from Pegasus

[@maxdamon3365]

the german translations are pretty good in my opinion

[@GrandiaKnight]

Could you switch back and continue the series in an older version?

[@Audiotrocious]

Yup, just switch to 5E

[@deejaytubbster8983]

Thanks to these statements, I feel vindicated not to buy this edition (played since the very 1st one).

[@jarodnole4618]

Oof, I just started and bought sixth edition without knowing any of this about it 😅, it makes me really sad for multiple reasons. Something unique not giving the proper treatment it deserves, wasting money and wasting time.

[@cmdrwraithe1857]

I love the Shadowrun setting and universe. However, I've not been able to play it much at all. Which version is the best, then, if I wanted to play or run a campaign? What's the general concensus for that?

[@choninja21]

I'm currently GMing a game in a system that is pretty bad all things considered but we are still having fun and I'm pretty much making up things as I go along. While that works for a bunch of friends just hanging out playing a TTRPG, that kind of thing is a nightmare for a show to try to pull off. What I getting at is that I completely understand why y'all are not continuing this series.

[@jeanphare8318]

I feel like this with 5th edition. Constant rule discussions because the writing was apparently never edited.

[@choninja21]

@@jeanphare8318 for the record it was Star Wars saga edition. The bastard love child of Star Wars, DnD 3.5, and DnD 4w

[@VMSelvaggio]

I became introduced to this game late, and first played during 3rd Edition, and both 3rd and 4th I really enjoy. However, the person who introduced me to Shadowrun has even told me that the edition that he feels most at home, is with 2nd Edition.

[@Mr._Matt]

Oh my gosh! Random Tuesday is Imogen! I watched a good chunk of the first season of that and the other day, I was listening to one of the Shadowrun 6e episodes and I was like MAN her British accent sounds a lot like Imogen. And then I saw her out of her M3M3 costume today and had my mind blown. :O

[@RufusMcTwigglefart]

Lol

[@ciesson2100]

And this is the biggest reason I am upset that they had to cancel this show due to 6e nonsense. Random Tuesday is a brilliant actor and talented maker/cosplayer and her portrayal of M3m3 in this show was incredible.

[@Vallinen92]

For someone who has wanted to gamemaster Shadowrun for a long time.. I've been wanting to pick up 6th, but now when I've checked it out.. People say it's got a lot of issues. What edition of shadowrun should I pick up? My gaming group is used to playing DND 5e. A lot of people want "streamlined" rules. I prefer crunchy but not overly complicated rules. What edition should I pick up? Which one is the "best" and "most simple"? Please help.

[@LongFacedBastard]

2e core only then add on things as you get more comfortable

[@jacobmarkvardsen2790]

Can you link to the Shadowrun 5.5 homebrew rules? They sound interesting.

Yes, please please PLEASE!!!

[@christopherkelly9153]

Did these issues get better with the Berlin revision of the core rules?

[@GunnySGT1911]

You guys are being pretty fair in your assessment of SR6e. You could have really lambasted them. I've been waiting for 6e to come out. I was so excited to finally get the PDF and start playing. As a GM, I can honestly say I have never been so disappointed in a game release. It's not that there are a *few* mistakes. It's that there are so many of them and the whole production comes off lackadaisical. It's like they didn't put any real effort into it. I feel like there attitude was simply "why bother, the sheep will still buy it." The errata barely touches on the problems. Like I said, so disappointed. But we'll give it a try and see if we can homebrew some fixes.

[@ogrehaslayers605]

Right? And it doesn't get better if you go over to the Catalyst Forums for Shadowrun. While the Battletech boards are full of really cool people, the SR boards are populated with people who will rip you up if you ask questions.

[@GunnySGT1911]

@@ogrehaslayers605 Thanks for letting me know that. I won't waste my time looking there for any help. Our group loves the Shadowrun universe. We've discussed some of the issues. We've decided to just go ahead and play it. Keep notes of all the issues we find. Then we'll sit down together and try to come up with some rules to cover the gaps or replace any glaring problems. Maybe we'll get around to posting our house rules somewhere.

[@liamr6761]

Wait, Maggie is writing a book series? WHAT DOESN'T SHE DO???!!!

[@saulmorales4863]

Ah crap I just found this channel today. I am currently running 5th Edition and the last time I ran was 1st edition and 5th is a beast!! Hopefully we will get a system that is worth the setting of Shadowrun.

[@simonrousseau9760]

I play SR3 and i love it!

[@rossnorris2351]

Oh god, the fiction for up to 4th ed is so damn good. I haven't seen any 5th or now 6th fiction.

[@Audiotrocious]

Dark Resonance was a great novel about Technomancers and how they use the Matrix as well as are hunted down and experimented on

[@Hauwke764]

I have been thinking, what about another season of Stars without Number? The system is pretty cool.

[@seanofl]

I have loved Shadowrun since it first came out. Playing a troll in 1st Edition was just an unstoppable thing with automatic successes against damage. I agree with all of you about 6E and it is very sad. I hope you guys can keep the group together and play Shadowrun in some form as this group is great. I am just greedy like that.

[@MartinHipp]

Did you guys tried Genefunk2090? It's a sort of Shadowrun Game that uses a Variation of the D&D 5e Rules. That should be easier in terms of keeping track of anything

[@gaedejonathan9327]

20:02 This is something you ask yourself every other paragraph. 48:55 "We should have a page limit! But let´s not forget to sqeeze in horrible copy&paste rules for Ritual Spellcasting and Enchanting. And flamethrowers. With examples. Yeah, there are no flamethrowers in the gear section, but who knows what the future might bring!"

[@niduroki]

Good catch with the flame-thrower rules. I mean technically speaking it's used for the "Noxious Breath" Critter Power - definitely need an example for that!

[@gaedejonathan9327]

​@@niduroki Missed that. So it´s not totally pointless, just almost :P

[@felyndiira]

Are MySads actually strong in 4e? No one that I knew played them without some specific cheese (like all MAG in adept, only 1 in magician, and use power foci to make up the difference). I thought that was the reason they were massively (over)buffed in 5e.

[@corrosionsting]

i like 6th edition just fine. don't understand why everyone hates it so much

[@maxdamon3365]

it has issues, but i have to say, i like it to. The edge system works pretty well for my group

[@1986Hikaru]

You can use Starfinder RPG, or D&D 5e with Dark Matter setting book instead.

[@JesperBisgaard]

We always rerolled initiativ every round and loved it. Not everyone thinks it was an issue, we loved the dynamics of the 5th edition initiativ. 🤨

[@niduroki]

Very good choice on *not* continuing with: "Let's play a Cyberpunk TTRPG, Shadowrun is the one-and-only system, and you obviously play the latest version of it" CGL is abusing the Shadowrun License to milk its status as the go-to Cyberpunk TTRPG - with 6e this is more obvious than *ever*. A bigger stream, like you guys, throwing the towel, because of 6e's obviously rushed nature should be a sign to not play 6e, for anyone uncertain which Cyberpunk TTRPG to play, which IMHO is what CGL deserves.

[@LibraryOfCat]

Yeah. CGL needs to go away. They sit on great IP's, and do nothing or worse with them.

[@jgotty777]

Cgl is the EA of board games and TTRPGS. They just buy franchises and burn them into the ground

[@Shenaldrac]

It's not just Shadowrun they're abusing. Battletech keeps sinking, sourcebooks we were promised to come out years ago are on hold because it's more lucrative for them to backfill eras that don't matter with sourcebooks than advance the plot and risk making some people bawww on the official forums. I'm a Capellan fan, I'll probably be one of the people bawwwing when the next timeline advance happens and the feddies kick my favorite faction in the nuts *again* but for fuck's sake, I'm some dude being butthurt online, grow some thicker skin and *make the products people want.* Stop being afraid you'll upset people because in Battletech that will happen no matter *what* you do.

[@faxx2]

Maybe try grim and perilous at some point or the warhammer rpg 4th edition

[@olivierschoeneich7570]

Hey, thank you for this video. Now I know what I will not buy. So I understand why you decided to stop playing 6e. But if you were to play Shadowrun again, or if you had to advice someone. Which version would you pick ? Definitely not 6, from what I understand not 5 either. I have 4th and I really enjoy it (except matrix rules which I houseruled much easier). But 4th doesn't have all these problems you describe in melee, distance, armor, magic rules. Also, what are Grids and marks ? I don't recall reading anything like it in 4th, but I have the the french version so not sure what would be the translation.

[@Selavel1]

I was so looking forward to the 6th ed and was sad that it was pushed to Oct release date...after watching this I won't waste my money on 6th edition and will stay with a modded 5th edition game. I was hoping that this edition was going to work and make the game better. Oh well! :-( It doesn't suprise me that this edition has major issues as most rpg games lately that rpg's are rushed and come with tons of errors and bugs that make it hard if not completely unplayable!

[@NightWolf-hb5bi]

So will you go back and play something using fourth edition? Would love the chance to be able to be apart of that

[@epone3488]

Were you using Seattle edition? Or was this before that? Maybe go back to SR and use 1e for the rules "old School style"?

[@SamaelHellscrem]

I realy find it funny. I hear you complain about all the problems it has and i sit here and think "that's not in the book! What are you talking about?!" Until i realized that i have the german edition from Pegasus Press who after they got the books hired about 20 other people and playtested it again with their own team before releasing the german version xD

[@user-jv7gr1jb3r]

In the words of The Professor: _Oh no._

[@johnathonharker266]

It's a bummer things didn't work out

[@sovelisholimion]

:( I loved this series even with the rules discussions... i hope u do some more shadowrun (maybe go back to 4e bc it looks like u think those were better) Loved the vibe of the campaign, it's very inspiring for a DnD/cyberpunk hybrid I'm cooking up.

[@rossnorris2351]

Try second or third edition.

[@PsychoTurian1987]

I Started with 5 and really like it. but i looked at 6th edition and am very upset with a lot of the changes and updates made. I regret buying the 6e special edition book.

[@oneonly2762]

Just do the campaign in 4E with Splats! #IStanSplattercat

[@shanehudson3995]

I still play 4E 20A. Best version in my opinion.

[@Ghastly_Grinner]

Splat is running a SR4 campaign?

[@shanehudson3995]

@H W The fuck? I'd give you mine if I wasn't using it. Pirate the bastard!

[@buellrichardson5222]

I know you don't plan to use 6th ed and I understand why but I had an idea on how to home rule edge. You can gain a max of 2 general edge like the rules mention. If you have something that will allow you to get edge for a specific task would be over and above the 2 generic.

[@The_Murder_Party]

You can use point buy and that works better, (harder to min-Max.)

[@evertfrederiks293]

I want to run a shadowrun game for my friends should I get this edition or another (both me and them are new I have the beginners box). I could really use all the help I can get.

[@walker-macfitness2130]

Dont get the new one personally ive played 5th and enjoyed it, from what others say go to 4th or below.

[@yamcina7454]

Go with 3rd if you can get it, that was the best in my opinion

[@75kurai]

Sad to hear what you have to say about 6e. I started playing 2e, got back into it 4e and just the other week bought 6e Core. Love the setting still.

[@lupusprobitas]

yeah, I expected the priority system to be unbalanced like in 5th. Honestly they should scrap it entirely and have a karma build system as standard. Though it requires a tad more fiddling, I think it's actually easier and more intuitive for beginners since it works the same way as advancement (which they would have to learn anyway). It would punish newer players less since min-maxing wouldn't pay off nearly as much and all players would have builds with the same karma value (unlike the priority system where it can diverge with several hundred karma!). Generally I think that the priority system actually requires more system mastery, which goes a bit against its design goal of making it easier and faster for players.

[@logangagnepain7154]

Hey, everyone trying to get into Shadowrun Play SR3 for a very rules lite experience Play SR5 for tons of options Play SR4 for an experience that lies in the middle Personally, i like SR4 the most

[@Chroniclerope]

Understandable. The rules system was unfortunately terrible and it was dragging the story down. I hope we can get some sort of sci-fi to replace this though.

[@benjamincarter6095]

Any chance of picking back up with 5th Edition rules?

[@snowts]

I remember getting started with the SR5E beginner box and it explained hits wrong. Very frustrating. Lame to hear 6e is also messed up.

[@InsolentCrow]

Even though I happen to love the setting of Shadowrun and these characters it was pretty obvious that you all were not enjoying it at best and miserable at worst so I think it'll be good to leave this dumpster fire of a system. Looking forward to the next show!

[@ogrehaslayers605]

Hopefully soon! Maybe retro into a previous edition or hack a separate system and just use SR as the setting?

[@TheSonsofSigmar]

My friends and I only play 4th edition. I tried upgrading to 6e but the book and system was so poorly laid out I had to look it up on KZbin... this led to a weird weeks long rabbit hole on a channel called "Roll4It". So I guess Shadowrun 6e did "something" right by getting almost everything wrong.

[@tirirana]

I've now seen over and over again, that the Priority-System is a quick and easy way of character creation, but deeply flawed when it comes to balance and consistency. I've played Shadowrun since 2nd edition and we always used the points-buy system, or when available the karma-creation rules. In my opinion every character creation system that uses different rules for character creation, than character improvement is flawed and prone to exploits and inconsistencies. The VtM Rules have the same problem but the SR6 rules are kinda extreme in that attributes and skills are treated very differently during character creation and suddenly cost the same during improvement.

[@martinwolff4102]

Second only to the rigger rules, I think this is my least favourite part of SR6; training times are long for both, and karma costs for Attributes and Skills means you should focus on Attributes 9 times out of 10. That just doesn't make much sense to me; there should be a tradeoff.

[@moccaloto]

Thanks for this. I had the same feelings when I read the 6th Ed rules. I think I'll stick to a heavily hacked 3rd edition 😂

[@Phantom_Gamer1]

Sorry to hear that you all were having issues with the system

[@andrebrynkus2055]

Sounds like they started writing this edition too late. They needed a year of play testing - mostly with new unfamiliar players. Sadly they needed to get it out for the thirtieth anniversary - and put out all of that butt ugly neon pink and yellow XXX merch. Maybe if they started earlier it could have been ready - but they weren't going to stop putting out a few books a year while working on the edition.

[@christopherhiller1035]

I hear you about the troll and the pixie doing the same damage with a crowbar. It is ridiculous. And it sounds like they really screwed up a lot in 6th Edition. Also, it doesn't sound like the current publishers at Catalyst are open to play-testing, customer's input, etc. One solution I can think of is, instead of resigning to the cages of Shadowrun's messed-up rules, why not take the positive elements of those rules as a base to form your own, to fill in the cracks? Like with the troll and pixie with the crowbar, you could come up with a strength modifier or another way to incorporate strength values... just an idea

[@SquirrelGamez]

I love the world of Shadowrun but haven't enjoyed the game since 3rd edition. o_o Have you guys thought about Savage Worlds? I've seen some Shadowrun hacks for Savage Worlds and am curious what you'd think about it.

[@craetin8774]

Savage Worlds has a supplement called Interface Zero 2.0. A lot of the flavor and feel of shadowrun is there. There isn't magic in the supplement but core has it. I mainly play with that combo, Savage worlds and the supplement IZ 2.0. I highly recommend it. Plays fast and furious coz that's just how SW is.

[@lukestewart6155]

Shadowrun is the only show I enjoyed from roll4it, and it sucks it’s gonna be gone for like another two years if we’re lucky

[@ArgandTabletop]

I wonder if EE could give us a link to his SR5.5, as that does sound pretty interesting.

[@eDDyL666]

no sheets to download from your game?

[@baduizt]

SR4A or SR Anarchy are the way forward for people having this issue. SR5 works too, but is very crunchy. Anarchy is just so much simpler and more streamlined.

[@IAAporetic]

Necro post but youtube algorithm is a cruel mistress . . . I was glad to hear Concord suggest giving 2nd edition SR a try. I'm a grandpa gamer, but 2e SR (and DnD for that matter) was the high water mark.

[@christopherholliday1567]

did anybody play the star wars Rpg from West end games if so was it good bad or just different? I would love to play just don't know where to start.

[@johnhammons3332]

Recently rereleased. Check your local hobby shops.

[@princealiaps3751]

It's the version i run for my intergalactic smack dealers campaign! We all like it; very easy system. Combat pretty lethal. Nice rules for space combat as well. I like it much better than the D20 versions from WOTC. Only tricky issue is once you have skill level of 6D + you have to set high DC's to challenge the players. But you cam be killed with one good blaster shot; fortunately you can use Force Point to survive. Lastly : the force system in D6 S.W is not great; but for me that's not an issue. I,ve never liked the 'Space Magic' that much!

[@deathguarddavegoogley2022]

I still like 5e shadowrun. You can still get hold of it but you have to root around... I’d be interested to hear from veterans what the top two issues are with 5th?

[@bentrieschmann]

Most of the valid complaints I know of for 5e were bad editing and buggy rules. The rules could either be worked around or figured out. And some of those errors were from the crappy editing. Oh, and lack of erratas to fix errors that folks found.

[@blueneonfox]

Could see the end of this pretty early on. It's a shame but can totally understand why it was binned with so many fudged rules.