Why YOU Can't Stop Playing a Stealth Archer in Skyrim

[@byronsmothers8064]

>Boots up new character. >Set on playing spell/spell effects only. >Lock in on illusion & conjuration. >Muffle in left hand & Bound Bow in right. And like that, it happened again.

[@johnsexton4352]

Try Pacify instead, way more entertaining watching the AI have an existential crisis trying to figure out if you’re in combat or not

[@snazzydrew]

Legit my first playthrough ended up with those being my most used spells. Along with bound blade when it was time to fight in earnest,

[@mcpudd-20k]

@@johnsexton4352my alteration mage play though was SO much fun. I used companions and never actually saw combat the entire time

[@Squeerxblrg]

Unironically the best way to play an Archer. The Bound Bow has the stats of a Daedric Bow with a weight of zero, which makes it draw faster, giving it the highest DPS of any Bow, and also EXTREMELY broken in the early game. And the conjuration investment also gives you access to summoning extra meatshields to protect your squishy archer behind.

[@doublelamed765]

this happened to me just now 😂

[@theunprofessionallurker]

Magic got downgraded IMMENSELY in Skyrim. The lack of min-maxing customization we lost is why it became unsatisfying for me. I usually role a mage character in games.

[@Cethinn]

Yep. It's really sad. In Morrowind magic was very fun to use. (It also was able to break the game easily, but it's magic so I think it's fine.) There were a lot of ways to interact with the mechanics in interesting ways to improve your abilities, and gathering spells to make custom spells with was fun. In Oblivion the capability got nerfed a lot, but it was still good enough to be fun. In Skyrim you're better off just ignoring it. There's almost no utility to benefit from and the damage spells are weaker than any alternative more easily accessible. IIRC Todd liked playing a Barbarian style character, and it seemed had a grudge against how much utility mages had, but just make enchanted items and spell scrolls more accessible instead of removing anything interesting from it.

[@Takarias]

Morrowind even had a bunch of utility effects available through potions and scrolls, so it's not like they haven't solved this problem before.

[@louisminati]

It'snot that bad. I am playing thru for the first time since the game came out but without any melee (been there done that with oblivion back in the day.) It actually becomes OP as hell, if you know how to properly use alchemy you can break the game as a mage. It just takes a bit of patience to get the items and perks to get in to that point. But in retrospect its a whole new game compared to spamming attack button and stealth archery in all my previous runs.

[@jakubkvasnica2433]

Well, the mage gameplay in MW was as awesome as it was unhinged - a true freedom you can hardly find anywhere else. Oblivion was a bit nerfed, yes, but you still had a lot of freedom, enough to have to be careful not to make anything gamebreaking. Skyrim - well being a mage is more challenging, true, but once you get gear enchanted to spam spells like a machine gun for no cost, it becomes quite the fun. Especially those elemental blasts added later. And paralyze rune, that one is BRUTAL😂 but I have to get rid of any follower, since they die too quickly. After that... Boom boom BOOM time🤘

[@whatisthisaccountlol-c8s]

I have SO MUCH fun playing Necromancers. It's the best, most fun magic strat. If you REALLY want to have fun, do Azura's quest, and when you get to the guy's skeleton, ressurect him. Maximum fun.

[@elskaalfhollr4743]

You forgot the most critical thing. It feels good, kill cams are nice, exploring slowly is nice and it incentivizes lateral thinking and problem solving which tingles the smart monkey brain parts

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I think that's the primary reason for playing that way: the cool kill cams.

[@Ghorda9]

@@octavianpopescu4776 also landing a kill shot on a deer early game is the most satisfying thing you can do

[@-tera-3345]

There's definitely an element of feeling like it rewards player skill more than other playstyles. Knowing which enemy to take out, when to take them out, and where to take them out from that your attack goes mostly unnoticed, as well as actually hitting a shot on a distant moving target. While you can break the game just as much with the other playstyles, it's either through pure numbers or through free and unblockable stuns. There's nowhere near as much element of feeling like you have to actually be good.

[@storyspren]

@@octavianpopescu4776 This is definitely part of it. For stealth characters, the kill cams reward your good gameplay with shots of your character being skilled at the thing you built them to do. For other characters, they tend to interrupt the flow of combat and hinder your ability to do things that make those characters feel competent.

[@Chrisfragger1]

I love being stealth because you can see exchanges between enemies who would see and hear you otherwise from the other end of the dungeon. You can see how the natural wildlife act while they are not aware of your presence.

[@mygetawayart]

I'd also add that one reason it feels so good to play a stealth archer in Skyrim is the map design. It's hardly always a flat plain, and instead gives you several vantage spots from which you can approach an enemy. Whether it's a hill, a tower, a rooftop etc... the game encourages you to look for higher ground in order to have an advantage, and oftentimes it rewards you with such advantage.

[@-DeScruff]

Then there is the reverse! You spot a group of enemies, they haven't noticed you yet. You have the low ground so if you approach the archers and mages of the group are gonna be taking lots of pot shots at you while you fight the melee fighters. So you pull out a bow, and shoot one of them first... Dead. The enemy group is alerted but they don't know where you are. You shoot the other ranged enemy.... Dead Now they know where you are. They start running towards you.... You have a bow in hand already, might as well shoot them before they reach you. Because their AI lacks any sort of "group tactics", or concept of cover, they all B line straight towards you on the same path usually one at a time. Dead. Dead. Dead before anyone got within melee range. Oops you just Archered them all.

[@masterjedi8072]

Another issue is that magic doesn't scale damage in skyrim. A level 1 mage can cast a 40 point fireball. A level 50 mage can cast at best about 130 damage fireball. A level 1 archer can hit around 15 damage with unupgraded tools. My last character at level 28 archer hit for 128 damage before arrows, enchantment, poison, and stealth bonuses. I added fiery soul trap and chaos damage to my bow. I hadn't even maxed out my smithing, enchantment, destruction bonues, or alchemy yet. I checked the math at one point and if I poisoned my bow, drank an archery potion, landed all 3 chaos effects, and wore archery boosting equipment, I would hit for over 700 damage. So if I hit a steath hit, I'd slam them for over 3,000 damage. I basically fought peasants with a bolt action 50cal.

[@Takarias]

It's pretty wild how much Mages fall off in the later levels. Rough early game, rough endgame...

[@Kaftan]

It basically forces the player to actively not level melee, ranged, or armor skills and to not prestige/legendary skills for more points in order to remain viable. Some spells entirely stop working at high enough levels without modding (looking at you, Illusion).

[@stranger7131]

That's because magic's main strength isn't "raw damage" in Skyrim, it's Summon Dremora Lord spam+Destruction Impact stunlock as support. Combined with Quiet Casting perk from Illusion and some investment in sneak and you can't die just from the fact that you won't even be targeted by enemies that are perpetually distracted by your summons and losing attrition. Yes, the spell school named "destruction" isn't actually for doing damage, it's stupid like that, blame Todd or whoever for the way it is.

[@josephpercy1558]

@@stranger7131 Yeah, I was going to reply with "what about Impact!?" -- but you already mentioned the OP stunlock mechanic. 😆

[@masterjedi8072]

@@josephpercy1558 so my options are to stunlock an enemy to death, and hope none of his buddies kill me or instant kill him from 30 yards away? Why would I ever choose magic? Todd hated Morrowind's magic so much he drug skyrim's magic out back and shot it.

[@Odisseia-hh2td]

One underrated effect of the stealth archer is that it just feels good to defeat a foe with 1 or 2 blows. Most other methods (e.g. melee/magic) require spamming attacks over and over which makes them feel less good (i.e. more "noodle-like").

[@James11111]

Me, who always plays a paladin (Heavy armor, one-handed, block, restoration, illusion): "Hmmmm, yes..."

[@Takarias]

Also a fun playstyle! I had a lot of fun with the melee character I made for this video, and I've enjoyed melee and melee/magic hybrid builds in the past. :)

[@ThommyofThenn]

It's just i feel like i have to harshly force myself to be that even if it means compromising on fun.

[@Striker2097]

My favorite food is vegetable soup *turns into a god for 11 minutes*

[@octavianpopescu4776]

I'm close to that: light armor, one-handed, restoration, illusion, sneak. I call my style stealth knifer. And it's not just in Skyrim, but I like to play this way in every game that I can. I was a stealth knifer in Elden Ring too. I was sneaking around taking enemies out one by one, whenever it was possible.

[@ThommyofThenn]

​@@octavianpopescu4776You should check out Dark Souls 1 and 3 in case you haven't. You're going to LOVE the Bandits Knife

[@normal6483]

An important reason that archery is something everyone is drawn to is that dragons are almost impossible to kill otherwise. In the early parts of the game your spells are short range, so until you unlock Dragonrend or higher level magic the bow is your only option for fighting the most common reoccurring boss in the game. You can't even unlock shouts until you kill a dragon, and you need a ranged weapon for that. Fire and Storm Atranochs are pretty good options as well, of course. I find they're even better at taking down dragons than bows or shouts are. But you need to have high enough Conjuration to make the spell books spawn, purchase and learn them specifically, and then think to use a fire elemental against a fire breathing dragon before you'll ever get the chance to use them against a dragon. And before that happens, you'll probably have already picked up a bow.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

You say that like I didn’t immediately go and master magic after reaching Whiterun and becoming a werewolf. I was like, “Oh, Companions sounds cool” when reading the instruction manual or whatever, then went, “Oh, Circle? Cool. I’m becoming a werewolf.” Then become Archmage of the College Of Winterhold. Then did everything else lmao

[@stranger7131]

Fire and storm atronarchs are terrible, they have too few magicka and their AI focuses on ranged combat through spell attacks. Only frost atronarchs (unusually tanky for its level), dremora lord (summonable AGGRESSIVE humanoid melee NPCs with two handed weapon staggers), dawnguard (decently tanky skeletons), and Creation Club summons are actually decent.

[@normal6483]

@@stranger7131 Focusing on range is the point - they actually have attacks that can hit dragons, and they regularly use them. Fire Atranochs in particular are immune to fire breath attacks like most dragons use, so they'll survive long enough to bring the dragon down. As for magicka, the fact that they come with their own pool is a good thing. They don't eat into yours after the initial summoning, and they regenerate magicka on their own, so they can keep casting spells. In the early game you can run out of magicka after a few firebolts, but for less mana you can get more firebilts from a Fire Atronoch. It doesn't scale to late game, but this isn't about late game. This is about early game, before you've mastered Destruction magic or have the Dragonrend shout. This is about alternatives to using the bow to ground a dragon.

[@stranger7131]

@@normal6483 If you want to fight dragons then just time destruction impact staggers to cancel their breath attacks, very easy to hit against the hover breath attack (which is probably the only really dangerous breath attack because who cares about the wildly inaccurate strafe version), and also easily done with the lightning bolt just because it's a hitscan attack. Also their accuracy (especially against flying dragons) is terrible if ranged attacks is your point of using them, and no, their magicka pool is so small that they'd immediately run out of them pretty quickly and while NPCs do regenerate magicka a lot faster in-combat than the player do, it's still pretty slow. Still, they ARE disposable ally NPCs that can distract the dragon, you are that much correct, but again, frost atronarchs or those other summons I mentioned likewise occupy the same role. And hey, you can only have two summons outside of ritual stone abuse, and spending it on something low impact as low damage output ranged ones is rather poor use of it.

[@normal6483]

@stranger7131 You need 50 Destruction to unlock Impact, meaning you'll already be halfway to maxing it out, and thus have already started fighting dragons with bows. You are at the point I talked about earlier, where you are strong enough in magic that it's no longer early game. Also, while Frost Atranochs are great against a lot of enemies, this is about dragons, who fly. Why would you bring up bad aim when the alternative is being completely unable to attack at all. Their aim is better than a controller users, because they can hit a flying dragon while most controller users need to wait for the dragon to hover before they can fire. So aim-wise they still have great aim, anyways. But even if they didn't... the alternative is still a summin that does nothing.

[@JonnyCrackers]

I played stealth archer once and only once. Spellsword is always what I end up defaulting to.

[@SupahTrunks7]

Spellsword is definitely my preferred build. Nothing like a spell in one hand and an enchanted axe in the other. Plus it means I can actually inflict weakness to magic poisons

[@a8lg6p]

I almost always played stealth archer like everyone because I'm no fool, but I also had a lot of fun as a spellsword/battlemage once (I went with battlemage; the latter were traditionally more heavily armored). The "enemies attacking you as you blast them with flames" isn't as much of a problem when you can spray them as they charge at you, and then hack them down with one or two hits when they reach you, having been already weakened by the flames.

[@a8lg6p]

It's a shame they made the game in a such a way that stealth archer was generally more (in most people's opinion apparently) and OP, because logically, it seems like, in a world where you can be a Jedi (ie magically-enhanced warrior, ie Spellsword/Battlemage), it seems like that would obviously be the ultimate. This is why I was always annoyed by the D&D attempts at balance and thought settings like Ars Magica were so cool. Obviously normal people and those with the ability to bend reality to their will aren't "balanced". Mages are walking artillery, so why should they be "balanced" anymore than cavemen are balanced with modern infantry? By why does having powers have to make you a weak, skinny bookworm? You can come up with justifications if that's the kind of setting you want, sure, but...why should you? Why can't they also hit the gym every now and then, and even use magic to make them faster and stronger?

[@Cinnamowo]

I wish stealth was implemented better in this game. When I have Sneak 100 I always prefer going in with dagger and stabbing everyone, but when it's not 100 stealth becomes almost impossible. Which is why Falmer have to be my favourite type of enemy. Take off your heavy armour, start moving slowly and don't bump into any of them (it's also like the one advantage of daggers, cause for some reason any other fucking weapon produces so much sound that everyone become instantly alerted

[@robynpress9534]

My first character was a stealth summoner, where I summon a fire lady then back off and shortly the enemy loses track of me, distracted by her, and she explodes when she dies. Rinse and repeat until dead.

[@Takarias]

Cheesy! A fine brie, perhaps. I love cheese~

[@Leeloo-Foxx]

ah the tried and true method of GET THEM MINION!

[@MousaThe14]

You know what also encourages players to go stealth archer? The main selling point of Skyrim. The bloody dragons. Unless you speed run getting Dragonrend, what is a melee build going to do against the flying buggers? But if you’re already sneaking, of some of that slow time and zoom, then all of a sudden you’re going more damage and a bigger amount of damage than any mage that has to flail around with a sparks spell that’s not in range and more likely to miss. The game’s marketable enemy is forcing you to take up a bow.

[@Sebastian_Niedermeier]

There's also the habit in early to post-mid game of enemies just onehit kill you the moment they get in range - so that's a push factor you didn't mention. I once made an army vet char. Expert difficulty, Alternate Start in Solitude, join the legion right away, no side quests till victory (this guy doesn't go awol), only use Legion issued armor and weapon, plus the once liberated from the stormcloaks, survival mode on [this makes getting to the battlefield an actual challenge instead of just being tedious busywork]. If you want to try it, this is actually a pretty engaging way to play the civil war questline. Drawbacks, you're broke the hole time, for you can't carry enough loot, to sell and pay for the necessary food, potions and shelter. So you'll be hunting for food very quickly instead. See where I'm going? Also whenever you'll arrive at the battlefield you'll be frozen half to death, probably starving and in desperate need of sleep. Well that's no condition to get pummeled on by a bunch of longblade wielding stormcloaks... Then you'll remember that hunting bow, crouch behind your comrades and become a stealth archer. Too make at least some money, I also had this char turn all the animal skins into leather armor, upgrade them and later even enchant them for additional value. The cheap soul gems lie about everywhere, and one is filled everytime you hit a deer. So my army vet character ended up being - an "arcane blacksmith merchant stealth archer", with basically no points in melee, but maxed out haggling. Ditched the armor alltogether once my tour of duty was complete. Still it's an engaging setup for a character and you'll feel as desperate as real life civil war, drafted at level 1, soldier should - unless you safescum or use the console ^^

[@TinBryn]

One thing I noticed when doing the restoration potion loop exploit is that you can get to a point where you can one shot everyone with a flick of your finger and are functionally immortal. The relevance is that when you encounter a dragon, the literal main gimmick of this iteration of the series, you are almost useless until the dragon decides to perch long enough and near enough for you to get a hit in. So despite being technically more powerful than literal gods, you still need to invest into archery.

[@Laezar1]

I've been saying it for ages. Stealth archery is a combination of two playstyles with both very low cost to entry and opportunity cost and that synergize well together and can also fit into any build or be a build in and of themselves both individually and together. First sneak. The cost to entry is incredibly low as the sneak button is always available and it's only cost is movement speed. The goal of stealth is to get to a point without getting seen (duh) and that makes it so that it's always the right option no matter what you want to do. Want to go by unnoticed? well if you don't sneak that won't happen. Want to engage an ennemy in melee? well you could charge in and get hit by ranged attacks, or you could sneak in and either you get spotted and you are in the same situation, or you don't and you end up in your favored spot able to engage the ennemy directly, maybe a more favorable ennemy than the one you'd have had to engage otherwise (and as a bonus you might get a sneak attack). Want to engage ennemies at range? Well you don't have to sneak but sneaking makes it more likely for you to reach a favorable range for yourself and a vantage point that's hard to reach, and again if you get spotted you will still be in a better position than if you just walked in so it's better to do than not. Those are assuming you don't take risks, the point is that even at zero risk you still get benefit from stealth, if you take risks you can get larger benefit but that's an option you don't have to. We're not comparing dangerous sneaking venture with no sneak. We're comparing sneaking to go to the same place as you would without sneaking, the low movement speed is only a cost to your patience as if you look at it from the ennemy's perspective you effectively teleported closer to your objective if you only count the distance traveled undetected, it's similar to using a shout like whirlwind sprint to get to an advantageous position. So yeah in a moment to moment gameplay there is no reason not to sneak as long as you are undected (especially since resuming to normal speed is pretty much instant). The "moment to moment" gameplay matters as if you're trying to optimize a character, gaining levels can be detrimental so you might opt to avoid some actions, but if we're talking path of least resistance then your build will be decided by moment to moment effective gameplay, not long term optimization. Now onto archery. The cost to entry is a bit higher as you need a bow and arrows but those are extremely easy to come by, you'll find a bow in the tutorial, and arrows are littered everywhere as you have access to your ennemy equipment on death (you can't loot their spell for exemple so magic is much harder to come by). It's also useful to note that arrow have a gold value but no weight, which means you should *always* be looting arrows even if you don't have or plan to use a bow. So yeah, most likely you'll have a bow and some arrow lying around. And similar to stealth the opportunity cost is very low. If you are a mage the bow allows you to keep dealing damage without using your main ressource of magicka, and without taking additionnal risks. It also goes through wards which are otherwise annoying. It also got more range and/or accuracy than most of your spells making it a prefered engagement tool especially since you can hold off on draining your main ressource until it's needed, so both at the start or the end of a fight the bow is a good tool to have. If you are melee a bow is still the prefered engagement method vs another melee ennemy as you will get free additionnal damage before they reach you, and can easily switch to melee when that's the case, it also allow you to attract ennemies to fight you in a more advantageous position. And it also allows you to reach otherwise unreachable ennemies, and in a game where the main boss ennemies are FLYING this is an obvious advantage. If you use alchemy it's the best way to inject poisons. Bows are also really good at cheesing overleveled ennemies (althoug magic wins here as the ressource is renewable meaning if you found a safe spot you can sit there forever, but a bow works fine enough in most cases). They also don't have to deal with random elemental resistances making their damage pretty consistent compared to magic. And even as a main weapon bows just deal good damage. If you level bows you'll find you deal similar dps throwing arrow in melee as you'd have done with a melee weapon, it's a bit awkward and definitely not the prefered way to do things but the point is that you're not sacrificing your damage by using a bow, it meshes well with any playstyle but it's a playstyle by itself. Oof that was a long list... AND IT'S NOT OVER BABY! That was what those weapon give to any playstyle without needing real investment or commitment. But the thing is those compound with each other. Bows range is usually high enough that sneaking while shooting arrows lets you kill ennemies before being detected, and it also make them the method of engagement of choice when sneaking. Remember that point about being a melee build that would rather engage in stealth first, and would rather whittle an ennemy with arrows before they reach you? Well if you do both you're whittling them down with arrow while they search for you and if they ever detect you AND reach you you can still fight in melee, it still didn't cost you anything. Stealth also mean sneak attack which on top of the bonus damage does mean less arrow spent on ennemies (which is usually negligible but you might have high quality arrows you want to preserve) and a easier time to hit your target since it moves less, so again, goes hand in hand well. But even at non combat utility bows go well with stealth. Bows can let you activate traps from afar or distract ennemies to a specific position which are doable but much harder with magic. Also if you are using magic to complement your stealth (with things like invisibility and silence) odds are you won't have magic to spare to cast spells while the bow and arrow is free. It is ridiculous how many advantages having a bow in your inventory gets you. Even if you are roleplaying a character you'd have to find a justification why they aren't pulling out a bow when it's obviously the right thing to do in that situation (and they are visibly proficient enough at it to use it). You have to actively try to not use a bow or never sneak. No matter your playstyle, from the most frontal warrior to the whimpiest mage the bow always has a place in your arsenal and so does the stealth button.

[@ivanpetrov5255]

If you have Conjure Bow, the cost for Archery gets even lower - infinite arrows, and you use the most powerful bow in vanilla Skyrim and second best arrow (I think, it's been a while since I played Skyrim).

[@Laezar1]

@@ivanpetrov5255 I mean, conjuring a bow does take more investment than getting into archery in general, but yeah it's worth noting that it's actually a good payoff for a conjuration build and synergizes well with summoning something to distract ennemies so we can add that onto the pile of minor reason why you'd naturally end up using a bow while pursuing something else

[@jownbey]

sneaking in morrowind even at high levels calls for casting invisibility. the difficulty is enough to drill the habit of quicksaving before all theft sessions into me.

[@AwareWolfOnWheels]

It's called scum saving.

[@jownbey]

@@AwareWolfOnWheels in a way. save scumming is to me more akin to playing rotk x where when defeating an officer's unit you can save state and run the fight until the rng has the officer become your prisoner instead of running away. several times in morrowind i've had the stealth indicator show hidden and still been reported.

[@ayeitburns1]

Easy changes you could make to Skyrim's magic that would make the mage style more appealing, to rival stealth archer: - you get the long range, fireball spell to start, instead of short range flames - ward is a starting spell for Bretons and High Elves - casting ward only depletes magicka when it blocks damage, or is very very cheap to cast and costs more when blocking damage - if you start casting ward at the same time as the damage hits, you take zero of that damage, like a parry move. - there is a stealth bonus for magic attacks (I always mod it in before playing) - the mage armour spells have health not duration - recasting them all the time is tedious, so cast them whenever and they last until you take too much damage - illusion needs spells that can be used in combat, eg: cast blindness on an enemy, and avoid them as they swing wildly

[@geneericname7138]

There are a lot of great ideas here but I propose some alternatives: Ward needs to be completely reworked. A magic shield is a great idea but having it take up a hand slot is not. Dual-casting is integral to effective magic use, especially for Destruction at high levels. Having to give that up to deploy a shield isn't a good solution. It's not a good solution for physical shields either, honestly. Rather than having time or health mage armor should just be permanent until dispelled and reduce your maximum magicka by its cost as long as it's active. Casting it again while active should dispel it and return your maximum magicka along with 25% of the cost to your current magicka, with a perk to increase that to 50%. Then add touch, distance, and AoE spells to dispel others' mage armor without returning any to current magicka, and maybe a perk to absorb some of it for yourself when you succeed. Aside from that I agree wholeheartedly with everything, except that players should get to choose whether they want Flames or a long-range fire spell.

[@SupahTrunks7]

I think another issue with melee versus archery is that weapon poison only lasts for one hit which is much easier to understand with a bow than a sword. And you can’t apply poisons at all with magic. My mage characters take out a bow to apply weakness to magic poisons to dragons so that my destruction magic can actually deal enough damage for its cost

[@Daltonisntabot]

It would make sense if the poison was weaker on swords, but each hit 'stacks' in a way, able to poison multiple targets, while on an arrow, it's strongest to a single target as they get the full effect. A much better balance. Not sure about Mage, though.

[@Cethinn]

@@Daltonisntabot Magic should probably benefit more from, or have more options for, potions. There's no good lore-friendly way to make poisons work for magic pures. They should also have access to spells and enchantments that can do similar things to poisons.

[@Daltonisntabot]

@@Cethinn I agree, just not too sure how you'd do that, unless it's done kind of Ward or something that activates in hit, like a Rune on the clothes or something. Maybe if you defeat someone, a poison Rune is placed where they're at. Definitely more utility though for Mages in Elder Scrolls 6.

[@josephpercy1558]

Poison technically only lasts for one hit in archery, too, because the (vanilla) game pop-up indicates "Do you wish to poison your bow?" No, it should be poisoning your arrows, and doing it in multiples.

[@Takarias]

I had an idea for throwable poisons with AOE effects. Would be able to give utility to any character - explosives, smokescreens, lingering poison gas...

[@Saved-by-Grace]

*laughs in two handed axe wielding heavy armored berserker* Stealth archer is too much of a time commitment for my impatient shrimp brain

[@madisondines7441]

If you're bored with stealth archery and want to have a ton of high stakes fun, do I have a viable build concept for you. Melee assassin that uses muffle and invisibility, one handed+daggers, and great stealth to sneak INTO groups of enemies and start picking them off. The challenge of pulling it off is thrilling, the combat gets cranked up to 11 as soon as you get caught, and it heavily rewards good timing (as you use your stealth roll to get out of detection trouble.) You do have to at least have muffle to pull this off at lower levels, so keep that in mind. But when you sneak into a group of Draugr so that you can assassinate the Death Overlord on Legendary difficulty? That experience is rewarding and thrilling. I highly recommend that you try this out for yourself.

[@Capta1nAsh]

I’ve been streaming Skyrim over the past couple of weeks, started with a mage build. Will say that with Alchemy the Fortify Destruction potions you can make at 100 Skill and enchantments let you commit war crimes. These potions boost damage with most spells and the radius of cloaks. The patch that introduces some CC content also took destruction from meh to OP. Those elemental burst spells (fire/shock) have high damage for low magika cost. But I’ll assume these weren’t mention because we’re talking about a mostly “vanilla” version of Skyrim. I think they really should’ve let you have sneak attacks with certain spells. Like Ice spike can deal headshot damage. Imagine that with sneak criticals and quiet casting. Alchemy is the real MVP of the game. Fast money, broken damage. At about level 60 and 100 in all magic schools I’ve started using warrior and thief skills and having potions boosting my 1 handed by 100%+ is taking me well along my way to becoming an Ebony Warrior

[@Capta1nAsh]

Will add with dual casting that the math is shit but with the cost reduction enchantments and projectile spells you can stun lock enemies with the impact perk but in the high levels and high difficulties it’s pretty much just waiting for something to die rather then an engaging fight

[@a8lg6p]

I have 600+ hours in Skyrim, and I'd have to say roughly 50% of my levels came from Alchemy, regardless of what build I used.

[@alexanderradcliffe5578]

I just wanna say for the record, I was gonna commit to a warrior build this run. But the game gave me a daedric bow of petrifying at level 8 in a dungeon chest. I took that as a sure sign that it was meant to be a stealth archer playthrough

[@tannisbhee7444]

I agree. Of course dragons heavily encourage players, particularly new players (if that's even possible given the age of the game), towards an archer build. Especially if you start 'Dragon Rising' at a low level, which I think is what Bethesda intended.

[@SupahTrunks7]

Yeah even if you don’t play an archer the entire game dragon fights really incentivize at least some use of bows bc no one likes waiting fifteen minutes for the dragon to decide to land in a place you can actually whack them with a melee weapon

[@DespereauxHarvey]

This last month I tried 3 playthroughs, each only putting points into skill trees of a specific archetype. Even with enchanting, the Mage playthrough was a slog that felt underpowered. The Thief stone only had poison, so pickpocketing poison into people became the only wat to deal damage and it was way more fun than stealth archer, but the temptation was always there like you said.

[@Takarias]

Sounds like you and I have been doing similar things the last few weeks :P Reverse pickpocketing is such a goofy mechanic, but heavily relying on it does sound like an interesting playstyle

[@debbiegilmour6171]

I've tried being a mage so much and before getting into mods it was so bad 😞

[@spencercorpuz]

Wait you can poison people by putting poison in their pocket??

[@DespereauxHarvey]

@spencercorpuz you need a perk, but yes. Putpocketing is hilarious fun. I recomend a paralyze and damage health over time poison.

[@lucasmesquita2160]

@@DespereauxHarvey how do you kill draugr and animals?

[@theREALlouthelou]

Impact. Destruction perk. Staggers anything you hit with a dual cast spell - even dragons and giants. You can kill essentially the entire game with Firebolt and not get hit by melee once you get the perk. But I prefer summoning a dremora lord and Incinerating everything. But forcing entire spawns to fight to the death is also fun. Magic is quite varied. Not nearly as much as previous games, but there’s a good bit of choice to it. Dual casting isn’t all about doing more damage. Also… atTRIButes would be multiple attributions, or credits. ATtributes are character details like strength. Inflection on the first syllable.

[@greevar]

There is also spell cost reduction enchantments. If you get 100% reduction for destruction magic, you can spam dual cast fireballs all day.

[@AwareWolfOnWheels]

Wrong! The uespwiki literally says that dual casting overcharges the spell to be more poweful.

[@hereniho]

Magic still sucks to use

[@AwareWolfOnWheels]

@@hereniho Yup Destruction is lame, Conj' and Illu' is where it's at!

[@greevar]

@@AwareWolfOnWheels The cost of the spell becomes 2.8x the normal cost for 2.2x the damage. This is only really viable when using a lot of spell reduction enchantments.

[@Hekkler72]

Skyrim released on 11/11/11. I was a stealth archer before 11/12/11. It just works

[@elskaalfhollr4743]

Are you American or normal?

[@Josian-ps7fb]

@@elskaalfhollr4743 😀 "Is it one day or one month"...🙂

[@Hekkler72]

@@elskaalfhollr4743 I was going to pen a strongly worded condemnation of that response but I ate my last crayon

[@peytongonavy]

My first Skyrim character was a sword and boarder who organically morphed into stealth archer as I started running with the Thieves Guild. Was grateful I did by the time I hit the Dark Brotherhood and the rest of the later game activities. Seeing the meme grow has been a charming piece of my childhood that hasn't actually become nostalgia because I can still play a stealth archer whenever I want and live up to the meme 😂

[@tic5418]

Great video! Also I think that the stealth archer build grants the most compensatory mechanical upgrade, like slowing down time and zooming in your targets. We don't really see a mechanical change like that in other builds, who usually just reduces damage taken and increases damage dealt if you use a certain weapon/armor/element (I'm just being very rough here, but it is what it feels like) Maybe this was not a thing in Oblivion, because there were more meaningful mechanical changes that had more weight in each skill tree, like being able to paralyze an enemy when using fists or knocking down enemies with your arrows

[@Takarias]

I don't have the skill trees in front of me right now to go through them all, but block has a few mechanical perks. There's a time slow, disarming chance, and a sprinting shield bash. Most perks are just "X% more damage," though

[@tic5418]

@@Takarias oh? Might be a good reason for me to explore the blocking skill, didn't know that. I'm playing as a mage this time but it sometimes feels unrewarding indeed, I believe it might be mostly because of this "X% more damage" thing or "now you can do damage to THAT enemy too!", even though I believe the Illusion school is a little bit different from that logic

[@Takarias]

@@tic5418 I'm considering making a new character that leans on Illusion as much as I can. There's a few interesting perks in there that feel like there should be something to them.

[@DefinatelyNotAI]

@@Takarias Block's problem is how big of a pain it is to level to get to the interesting perks. Until you reach the point you can survive teasing a giant for skill ups, you level too slow to get to any of the fun ones. I remember having a pain finding the high level trainer for block too, but I may have just been a dolt.

[@extralyfe]

I have a Skyrim playthrough right now where I was determined to play a mage - because I played a stealth archer when the game came out - and I think it's only entertaining because I am playing on the Anniversary Edition, which includes a bunch of broken spells and access to better gear than exists in the base game. my main takeaway from this run is that losing attributes - and to a lesser degree, skills - has been hugely detrimental to the magic system as a whole. like, if I was using magic in an earlier Elder Scrolls game, I would rely on Intelligence and Willpower to provide a baseline of power to every spell in the game. if I got Destruction up to 100, that meant I also tended to put a lot of points into Int and Will in the process. so, when I tapped into other schools of magic, I was still a powerful mage; it's just that the low skill meant I had a chance to fail to cast the spell. that was extremely elegant. with these separate perk trees, being a master of Destruction provides absolutely no benefit AT ALL to Restoration or Conjuration. I still have to level those trees to even have a chance at casting higher tier spells, but, I'm essentially treated no differently than a level 2 nooblord putting their first points into the Resto tree. that's still true even if I've become Archmage and taken down Alduin. add that unsatisfying mess to the fact that Skyrim has only a mere fraction of spell effects that we used to have, and Magic is an afterthought in Skyrim, at best. like, Detect Key or Detect Enchantment from Morrowind would be fantastic in this game, but they didn't even make the cut for Oblivion.

[@1HourChannel420]

Your channel is underrated af

[@vicsrealms]

The algorithm gets it right occasionally. ~grin~

[@Chatisthisrealquestionmark]

conjuration sneak archer... the best.

[@captain_saus]

My only stipulation with your description of the skyrim trinity is that ranged is not the 3rd, it is stealth, the skyrim trinity, is loud, quiet, and magic, magic works as a jack of all trades, so builds are unique and fun, loud builds allow for optimization of many different weapons and armors, keeping them fun, but for stealth, the optimal build is archer with a dagger as a secondary option, the benefits they both get from perks make stealth archer the defects stealth build, and it mostly comes down to the stealth mechanic being most efficient at range with a bow, if you could chain or sneak dash melee attacks other stealth builds become viable, but because of the combat system, the bow let's you fight multiple people while staying hidden, and a knife is great for a lone tough enemy, but because stealth only gets boosts from being hidden it means play passive or use a bow to fully use stealth Tldr, bows let you fight and remain stealthy, while all other weapons don't let you retain stealth

[@andrewsad1]

5:23 I do it too, the internet has embedded a pedant into my brain that scrutinizes every thing that I say to make sure there's no _technical_ incorrection that someone can ignore the rest of my comment in order to harass me about

[@TheUstnap]

5:56 Dual casting is bad *unless you also have impact, and then you stun lock everything for as long as you have magicka to spend.

[@Necr0ticus]

Yea, Imma comment before I made it throughout "the mage playstyle" but that part almost discoraged me from watching the video further, unlesss bro meant "bad" in a gamebreaking way. Dual casting, especially in vanilla, is always worth it and viable for any school of magic, unless you don't know what you are doing.

[@Necr0ticus]

11:30 Oh no, perkless dual casting for destruction without proper gear is bad, who would have thought, but since spreadsheet said so 🤓

[@blackgemstone801]

21:07 absolutely fantastic work to let the pistol animation play out. Perfect punctuation

[@Takarias]

The sound of immediately reloading that shot is ingrained in my mind as part of the combo

[@ggmann13]

I love the dulcet doothing tones of his voice while having the constant sound of the soft music in the background. Listening to this while in bed trying to doze off is just the perfect video.

[@Takarias]

This makes me smile so much. I appreciate content I can fall asleep to, so believe me when I say I understand this compliment. I'll keep 'em coming

[@ggmann13]

@Takarias hey thank you! And I did indeed fall asleep to it last night! Was just about to throw it back on to watch the whole thing from the beginning this time 🤟 Btw when you go in to play a new character in Skyrim and specifically have to force yourself not to pick up a bow, you know the game has a severe balance problem lol

[@fargoretro]

I've been inspired to pick Skyrim up again after watching an "Ironman" ruleset video. Even with a bunch of self-imposed restrictions stealth archer bubbled to the top almost immediately. Another great video!

[@gmclucy]

I love what Ordinator Perks mod did for Skyrim, honestly a must have if you wanna play a magic character, being able to play a stealth mage is so cool among other things

[@Zanguin1993]

Great points and you have a very.. Calming voice, I definitely enjoyed listening to the video and I hope you make more Skyrim / game videos 😄

[@Takarias]

I have zero intention of slowing down!

[@VampiricFox37]

my first character ended up being a stealth archer not because of its strength or effectiveness, but as a culmination of my personality. i love being stealthy and generally sneaky and doing all the things with no one being able to see me. My first character was based off my first Dragon Age character, a dual-wielding rogue and after a while I kinda lamented not using a bow instead because of the range and because I've loved archery since I was a kid. It wasn't til I got a ways in that I learned it's strong, effective, and greatly rewarding getting those long-distance kill cams with nobody the wiser.

[@darkfireslide]

Talking specifically about the Labyrinthian section, while yes the magic drain presents a unique challenge to mages, you have to also consider the other factors of the dungeon, with the Staff of Magnus being capable of draining magicka at a distance from targets to allow you to cast, while Morokei gives light armor-using spellblade characters 100% extra magicka regen, which can potentially be useful as well. The dungeon itself also promotes magical combat with its many plateaus and causeways, and there's a section as well where it is tremendously easier to bypass a dangerous soul gem trap if you are capable of casting a ward spell, which the game hints at you by providing a warding tome close to where the trap is located. This builds upon the first lesson that Tolfdir teaches you when you start the questline. It's like saying the Companions questline is easier if you use magic, but then ignoring that the rewards you get from doing that questline are of particular interest to warrior type characters due to the Shield of Ysgramor being the second best shield in the game after Spellbreaker. It's not a masterpiece or anything but people are incredibly hard on Skyrim a lot of the time while ignoring some of the more subtle things they got right.

[@Tethos]

Three reasons people gravitate to this style: It only needs 2 skills (archery and stealth). It negates scary enemies and the danger of getting hit. And finally, the thunk noise of stealth kills and chaining kills in slow motion is satisfying. It starts with players realising they can start combat from stealth for a damage bonus and to take on one enemy at a time. As skill increases they realise they can stay permanently crouched. Melee illusion is somewhat more powerful and fun though, as backstabs involve more risk element. And illusion frenzy can just clear dungeons very easily.

[@gogovish]

daggers and illusion are definitly more power options from stealth than bows for a high level charecter but they do have a significantly higher level of invesment needed in order to shows results so unless you are building for it from the beging you just use a bow from stealth and once you are already bowing it up there is never reelly a reason to stop since it is good enough

[@ScoutScoutScoutScoutScout]

Jokes on you, I've managed to cure the archer part of the stealth archer. Now I just need to stop using stealth...

[@skentmar105]

As you can see from my Avatar, I played a Stealth Archer once, a long time ago. The last several years, I've been more of a Battlemage or Spellsword. This video has brought back a lot of memories, and I'll probably play a stealth archer again soon, a little more focused on fewer skills. Good video, Great analysis!

[@charlesshoffner4201]

8 playthroughs in.... I will NEVER be caught without a bow. It's embedded in me for all of Skyrim eternity.

[@12dash]

thanks youtube for sharing this video to me, I'll be waiting for this channel to explode I would like to see a video about the save system of Skyrim, I have always thought it was kinda silly that saving before each encounter was somewhat encouraged

[@peteryoung7924]

I find it's the best way of not accidentally attacking my allies😂

[@Iverald]

Or bystanders, for that matter. Lost count of times an NPC pushed themselves into my melee strike when fighting a dragon and being attacked by everyone for involuntary manslaughter.

[@devanffff]

You have such a soothing voice! Fun listen while I’m toiling away for my corporate overlords

[@Draggo88]

Magic is a slow burn that never burns as brightly as sniping a Dragon Priest from across the map before they even know you're there.

[@genuphobia1029]

I have played Skyrim on-and-off for the last decade and I never made a stealth archer build until very recently. I would always play one-handed warrior builds that went in guns blazing without ever taking stealth into consideration unless it was necessary. However, in many other games, I enjoy playing a sniper. I love being at a vantage point and taking out enemies in single hits, and my most recent build is the most fun I’ve had in Skyrim because it emulates that pretty well. Plus I save so many more health potions. A big draw for me is the frequent killcams and the satisfying sound that plays when you land a sneak attack. It’s much more immersive than the classic melee combat style where you don’t have to think about anything but spamming the attack buttons and downing health potions.

[@WhatWillYouFind]

Stealth Archery solves the immediate problem of scaling and how we engage with the world. The shortcut to immense damage either from bound bow and their associated arrows that scales aggressively with illusion magic makes you feel VERY powerful with almost no investment. Enemies sometimes can't even fight back due to their own misfortune of being in a place with no way to get to you. As other comments have stated the kill cams feel good and as seen in "long shots" here on youtube you can actually play it skillfully without just abusing magic. Melee combat in skyrim without learning about it or min-maxing unmodded is a chore, takes significant setup/investment, and mostly crutches on using other skills/pot spam to stay healthy until you gain the perks to go ham. Magic is just LOUD archery without any scaling. You can do some really cool stuff with it. Wards to traps to manipulating objects to create physics interactions that snowball into absolute lunacy, but who wants to play 100s of hours using all those spells, honing that individual skill when 3 or 4 arrows or an equally leveled warrior just decapitates them with a power strike. Skyrim had very awkward power scaling for all the individual fighting types and I can't even remember unmodded play at this point.

[@Phenix19]

I play a stealth archer in Skyrim because that's my go-to build in any game that allows such a build

[@gizmoman2388]

I think something that would help the game would be to add 2 things: 1. Stealth killing enemies will still eventually give away your location when they find bodies or watch shots fly by, kind of like how Sniper Elite does it. 2. Implement enemies with a way to negate ranged damage for the most part (like a shield bearer that sets up temporary shields to block arrows and wears think armor, but is incredibly slow).

[@DrDoom-ph4gi]

That was exactly what I did. I got the game, saw a cute cat person, and thought that a cute cat person would be a good stealth archer.

[@similaritiesendhere]

That early mission where you fight the dragon at the watch tower is why everyone specs into archery. It's the moment that you realize that your new character build doesn't have a good way to kill dragons. If you use an alternate start mod to skip starting the main storyline (dragon attacks) or use a good follower mod to help your offense, you feel way less pressure to become a generic stealth archer.

[@DuskyPredator]

I would say the magic only playthrough with dual casting is saved with the Impact perk, which allows you to stagger opponents. My own memory of playing, the earlier bits are a challenging puzzle. Don't dual cast with novice spells but activate one at a time, and I think that conjuration is the second school you want to raise, and use whatever can stall opponents. Work towards alteration toward the middle when you can afford the extra magica of armour spells and being in the middle. It is a fun challenge.

[@PixelMurder]

I've always played Skyrim as a one-hand or two-hand heavy necromancer, and it got even better with Nemesis and other combat overhauls, where you can wield whatever you want in any hand. Nowadays, I don't even need an entry in a favorite menu anymore, I just can say "Skeleton Archer" into my mic, and "Shield Wall" to restore my shield.

[@loganconley63]

nice vid, man. just started my annual playthrough myself

[@Takarias]

What build are you going with? Any interesting mods this time around?

[@coltinsanders4695]

(Ignores all of the great and valid reasons for being a stealth archer in the game) Me an intellectual: “I like the sneak attack sound”

[@Takarias]

Also a good point! Definitely makes the brain tingle good

[@savalaner2086]

bro the editing in this video is actually peak

[@GodfreyMann]

In Morrowind, conjuration of beasts to increase DPS and distract attackers was a super strategy, but it was completely trumped by the stealth archer in Skyrim.

[@Geta92]

Consider me an example of the opposite. I've never played a stealth archer. I attempted to multiple times, got bored and stopped early. Too easy on adept, outclassed by melee stealth on legendary.

[@Jay_Hendrix]

Spellsword is a really cool build that I would also say Skyrim is also optimized well for. Just focus on one handed damage and use magic in your off hand as a utility knife to deal with specific situations. Magic damage isn't great, but you'll probably focus on enchanted weapons instead. Turns one into a jack of all trades.

[@QichinVODs]

You are correct, though I think a different way of phrasing your points is: It's not about balance of competitors, it's about a balance in gameplay choices. If one choice is objectively superior than others, the choice effectively doesn't exist. And intentionally choosing to play an inferior style (melee, magic) means playing the game in a way it was, very explicitly, NOT designed to be played (as in, the design of the end product, not the design goals at the start of development). You are fighting the game mechanics to play the game itself.

[@nonexistent4177]

The reason I never used magic in Skyrim was due to it feeling super weak. I "could" spent 5 minutes spamming fire bolts at an enemy, OR... I could just one shot the enemy with a two-handed crafted sword. OR... I could stealth snipe OHKO the enemy with a crafted bow. And on top of that, I remember it being relatively hard to make good spells in Skyrim too. Even with gear, and perks designed to reduce cast cost, and increase damage, it just never seemed to do much compared to martial weapon skills.

[@davidolvera1031]

All these stealth archers jokes always fell flat for me because I've never actually played a stealth archer. Every time I've tried it just felt so unbearably boring.

[@fangchick93]

I use sneak archery to whittle down hoards, then I use the hammer when I start getting spotted. Though if they're mages, I use electric spells

[@Takarias]

It's good to have multiple tools in your backup kit! I do the same thing on most characters :)

[@devinshannon2995]

Duel wield battle mage was pretty fun. Cast a couple spells until your magic is out, then pull out your second sword and beat things to death.

[@thezanzibarbarian5729]

As an old gamer, 63 years and counting, I've noticed, over the last 11 years, that I have changed how I play Skyrim. When it first came out, I wasn't really into magic. My builds were shield and sword/axe. Especially in confined areas. In the open, I'd change to a two handed weapon unless I was being attacked from distance then I'd revert back to sword and shield. For ranged attacks, I've still got my shouts. Force, fire and ice work well. Then I'd charge in. Then I started to go with shield and sword and archery for those outdoor fights. I wouldn't charge in with shield and sword. I'd hang back. Then the Dawnguard DLC came, and I changed almost overnight. I became a spell sword. Magic in my left hand. Sword in my right hand. And that got me thinking. *With all these mods you can get, I'm surprised that no one, especially Bethesda, ever thought about the player either being a left handed player, or a right handed player.* I know people will say, _"There are more right handed people in the world.",_ and they'd be correct. But if I'd been born a lefty, I'd find it odd playing a game where I'm holding my sword in my weaker right hand and a shield in left hand. I'd want it the other way around. Same as if I was holding a bow in my right hand. I digress. But as time has gone by, nearly every character I create now, is a mage. And with more mods, came more magic. And with magic, came enchantments. Especially with clothing. Enchant everything. Headgear. Earrings. Right and left earring having different enchantments. Amulet. Armour _(Armor for you from the USA because you can't spell properly.😉)._ Gauntlets or gloves. Footwear. Left hand ring. Right hand ring. That's 9 items of clothing. All with some enchantment. And each item can have 2 enchantments. So that's 18 enchantments to help you from defence to attack. and I know in the past there were other items of modded clothing that you can/could use, that'd give you even more enchantments then the standard 18. As for not going for the dual-wield in magic. Why? It's good. Fire bolt in both hands. Hold down both Left and right mouse. Wait a second for build up and *_BOOM!_* Whatever was attacking you is roasted. _But you need to get the right enchantments on your clothing._

[@RNS_Aurelius]

The crafting skills are the biggest imbalance to me. Why would I not have smithing and enchanting outside of consciously limiting myself? Why would I wear robes as a mage when ill be just as effective in a full set of heavy armour outside of consciously limiting myself? Fallout has a similar issue with charisma stat and speech skill. There's never a reason to have any points in charisma outside of maybe 1 or 2 perks and speech is the best skill in the game especially in New Vegas but weirdly becomes one of the worst in Fallout 4

[@KelbPanthera]

You wear robes because you're *not* as effective in custom heavy armor. The most powerful generic magicka regen enchants in the game (without exploits) are Master Robes of and a ring of recovery. Unless you're carrying your weight in restore magicka potions, you're gonna need that regen unless you neglect magic entirely until you've mastered enchanting and can make it free.

[@RNS_Aurelius]

@@KelbPanthera you're right in the early game having the magic regen is good. But the end game for every single playstyle is smithing enchanting alchemy unless you want to consciously limit yourself. Especially for mages, alchemy being the only way for your damage to scale once you've stopped learning new spells

[@KelbPanthera]

@RNS_Aurelius I'm a big time mage player. It's true that alchemy is an absolutely necessary for end game but you can neglect it for quite a while. Higher level spells, the augmented element perks, shalidor's insights, bought potions, and the Solstheim dragon priests' masks are all on the table too. Firing off incinerate, icy spear, or thunderbolt for ~380 damage each isn't bad at all. Smithing is worthless to a mage and enchanting is a mixed bag unless you're just straight-up negating magicka costs.

[@Bifragura]

I usually always add in Conjuration to any build. Being able to spawn a companion on command and Bound weapons being super strong at early levels is super nice. And I always actively avoid sneaking because it’s just way too OP.

[@benpearson49]

00:19 Well, I'm a Thief fanboy so, I like to go stealthy at every opportunity. I thought it was just me though.

[@bakakafka4428]

Gopher's playthroughs are great, his last one is now in chapter 11. His Leonard character hates bows. I highly recommend watching it from chapter one, and see him develop from thief, assassin and alchemist etc. I have watched this series several times already, absolute masterpiece.

[@Meaty33]

Just clicked on the video, before i watch i just gotta say the title is spot on.

[@Djrodw]

There is some fun in meta rules on character. Especially when dealing with mods that add full LLM driven NPCs. I tried it once a few weeks ago and it changes your motivations in the game when npcs start commenting amongst each other about specific things they "see" you doing. It will make you "want" to play the role of an all powerful war mage or tank. Even the crafting builds become fun when you can hawk your wares to AI that will negotiate back at you.

[@Kazillion-Jillionaire]

What's LLM?

[@Cethinn]

@@Kazillion-Jillionaire Large Language Model. It's the crap marketing people have been calling "AI" lately.

[@Kazillion-Jillionaire]

@Cethinn Got it. What's the use of it in the case of Skyrim?

[@Takarias]

Turns the NPCs into ChatGPT. It's got interesting applications for RPGs, since the NPCs can then react to anything, in theory, rather than just a set list of topics.

[@Djrodw]

They are crap marketing, i agree.... but they make for interasting gameplay when they can talk back to you in character for video games like skyrim.​@@Cethinn

[@Gunsmoke1084]

Subscribed! You're funny. The sad part is that I play stealth archer (sniper) in ALL my open world games when its available... and it usually is. One time I set out to specifically make Rambo in Skyrim, shortly after the prologue I realized it was just the same thing I ALWAYS play with a Rambo looking skin, lol. Stealth archer is amazing in Oblivion as well. Wolves are a pain in the tall grass though, especially since they world level when you level. AND, I HAD to save scum ALOT to steal that glass bow from the tavern khajiit. I didnt play stealth archer in Morrowind! I played a dagger wielding psychopath who could kill guards... SLOWLY. One hand was a paralyzing dagger and the hand was a fire dagger... paralyze, stab-stab-stab, re-paralyze (x 50+ each), LOL. I showed my friend that I could tank 3 guards simultaneously, he just shook his head and "Whats wrong with you?!" Mind you he was playing a greatsword build and would crush things in a few hits. But I was having FUN!

[@XmrcaptainbobX]

After a decade ive still never bothered with this playstyle. Theives guild is always short lived.

[@EatWave]

I have used the Ordinator perks overhaul as well as the Armor Rating Redux for so long that I have practically forgotten how much better the Stealth Archer gameplay style than everything else is when using the default game balance. Even when one does not account for BFCO, overhauls do lean towards making tanks or dodge-rolling sword and shield warriors the standard as if Skyrim were Dark Souls.

[@thehumbleebumblee]

I've taken on a more assassin approach with my latest character. She prefers killing with the dagger, something about "feeling their life leave their juggler" or some such. She also utilizes poisons

[@rexxpowercolt]

Oh my god. The short blade user getting off the dock and failing to hit an enemy. This meme is not used enough, 10/10

[@WildServal]

I like your perspective on this topic for one simple reason: it resonates with how I approach games. The concept of "metagaming" in single player games always existed some way or the other in my mind in a sense that I've always tried to use the most optimal or more efortless way to go through the content of the game, sometimes even using legit yet gamebreaking stuff that literally obliterates games' fragile balance and sends it into the oblivion (not in the game called Oblivion, haha, pun intended). So, the concept itself was understood and accepted by me for quite some time, but I've never called it "metagaming" until around a year or two ago when I finally realized that this is indeed what can be called metagaming even if it is in singleplayer. And you are absolutely right: it is indeed very difficult not to use meta when you know that it exists and how you can use it to your own advantage. It's like an infohazard that poisons your mind and thoughts with just its existance, even if you don't use it. You just know that it exists abd you can use it if you want. And you don't see reasons not to until it is too late and a game loses its appeal due to how easy it becomes. I like that you pointed out this idea the way I would do that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I look forward to your next video however soon it will appear. Take care! 🤝

[@TheMidnightBandit]

I primarily use two-handed and light armor. Dunmer. I use the shout that gives brief speed and stamina boosts. It's fun. I don't intend on getting really high level.

[@diteamiciedentrate]

you've convinced me: after so many builds that didn't use a bow it's time to go back to shoot arrows from the dark. Can't wait to hear again some bandit with an arrow stuck in his head and saying 'it must have been the wind'

[@loganstafford249]

There is actually a part of the pipeline (For me at least) that I feel is never mentioned. By the time my sneak is really high from all of my time bow hunting the denizens (Both nefarious and otherwise) of Skyrim, I end up pretty much abandoning the bow in favor of utilizing a dagger and sneaking around enemy camps so I can introduce it to their spleens and necks. For some odd reason, this playstyle really appeals to me, despite the fact that it probably requires the least amount of effort. Yes, my yearly Skyrim playthrough(s) will involve a stealth archer somewhere, but if that playthrough gets anywhere far, it will result in some kind of dagger assassin build. Just wanted to throw in my two cents because I wanted to add to the conversation. You have done splendid work in your research and presentation. You have definitely earned a subscriber!

[@xBINARYGODx]

somewhat-stealthy mage summoner kicks it ass

[@khirnera]

One think you could also attribute to the success of stealth archers comes down to the mechanics of the game. Stealth archery is (in 90% of cases because of how janky melee range stealth is) the only way to naturally get critical hits through sneak attacks without spending skill points, and the sound of the crticial and the knowledge of doing more damage feeds into the part of the brain that feels good when you do good thing. Additionally, as far as i'm aware, for the damaging skill trees (all weapon skills plus destruction), you gain experience based on damage done, and stealth archery just happens to do the most damage per encounter typically, meaning faster level gains. Additionally, sneaking all the time is basically free experience as well. While most players won't even register this, the fact that they "just happen" to get a ton of extra experience and levels during a stealth archer playthrough compared to the grindier sword and board or mage play styles also reinforces this positive feedback loop. In the presence of all the Skyrim As A System things that make the other classes (mostly mages) fruatrsting to play, Stealth Archers are basically set up to succeed

[@ElInventor]

Stealth archers: *Crawl and walk slowly, kill enemies so they can get to the target* My breton mage: *Casts muzzle and invisibility, then runs to the target ignoring the foes* Woop woop woop woop!

[@ElInventor]

Fun fact: I completed the game in my first run without being an stealth archer. In fact, I did it without using any weapon at all. Only magic. And no, I didn't use bound weapons either, just spells, like fireballs and invisibility.

[@gaulicwarlord]

Great content man, seriously underrated channel. I enjoy your Morrowind vids, although I've been trying to lay off them since I don't want it all spoiled for me, as I'm just now playing it. I started with Oblivion, which I loved more than any game when I was a kid. Anyway, thanks for getting me into OpenMW. I never really played much as a stealth archer in Skyrim, which is weird since people often say it's impossible to NOT play as it. I always played as a warrior (although I did have one stealth playthrough) but honestly I can see what people are saying, it is just so freaking boring and repetitive to endlessly bum rush people and mash the buttons in Skyrim. Mage is the worst though imo, not even mashing the buttons just holding them down endlessly.

[@Faerie_Kim]

I always enjoyed melee in Skyrim. Stealth archer is highly effective, it's true. But there's something viscerally satisfying about smashing enemies with a big warhammer while dressed head to foot in dwarven armour.

[@Shadowed-Heart]

Awesome timing on this video, I just started another playthrough a couple of weeks ago. I always "force" myself to get destruction to 100 before I go full on stealth archer, so I can get the most out of double chaos/fiery soul trap enchant on my bow when I do swap over, but boy is that itch always there!! it's certainly a lesson in restraint....... At the end of the day for me personally, nothing beats stealthing through a dungeon and getting a 1 hit, sneak attack, kill shot on all the sleeping draugr. ( and, of course, now with the soul trap arrows that's double soul gems too, I know I will end up with far more souls than I can use and/or sell, but hey ho)

[@AnalystPrime]

I remember starting a new game of Oblivion, took a peek in one dungeon and encountered goblins who managed to drive me out so I went to the city to sell my loot and buy better stuff which led to lots of speech checks and bargaining with shopkeepers and I guess I learned some lockpicking and pickpocketing too... So anyways, I had gone from level 3 to 10+ character so I came out of the city and went back to the dungeon for a round 2 with the goblins and the levelled system had replaced the goblins with trolls while my combat skills were still same as they were at level 3.

[@MagusDouken]

I mean, its also a clear factor that one of the key enemies in the game are DRAGONS, who are not afraid to Spray and Prey from the sky until you can "convince" it to come down and bite you, meaning Ranged combat is already encouraged.

[@Silversmith70]

I just turned my Wizard into a Stealth Archer a few days ago. I have 700 Magicka and 150 Stamina but I am working on Stam. My sneak just got to the level where it works more than it doesn't plus I have spells to fall back on. I went from Elswyr Fondue to Vegetable Soup. Dang fun game, I want to go play right now.

[@shoutykat]

Dual casting takes a whole other step up when you add impact. Welcome to being able to stunlock anything up to and including a dragon. Also, if you think illusion isn't useful, try leaning into fury and frenzy spells. You want crowd control? Those spells make the crowd control itself. In later game you also get invisibility. Along with your spell armour, Alteration gives you spell resistance so now your Breton mage is even more magic resistant. And a quick fire atronach from conjuration distracts those enemies you were worried about hitting you. Where do you get all the perk points? By not having to a single one into weapon skills, armour skills or smithing skills and only using the very base level sneak perks because the rest relate to weapons. I have literally played through never picking up a weapon (except to sell) or wearing armour. and it's dead easy.

[@sarratuggarites4138]

Watching this video makes me remember my first playthrough which funnily enough was not stealth archer it was unarmed kajhit which had a lot of trouble against dragons that just wouldn't land then i played stealth archer.

[@tomaszpawlik5091]

stealth archer, as you put it, is a noob heaven. It is incredibly accessible and strong enough for lower difficulties, a scenario newer guys are facing when playing. if we are talking about efficency on legendary mode then bows simply have pale in comparison to combat or magic when it comes to punching above your intended weight class. tldr low skill floor and lower skill celling

[@Mr._Anderpson]

After trying to play a stealth archer in Daggerfall, Morrowind, & heaven forgive me for trying ranged combat in Oblivion, it was a refreshing change to see the mechanic actually work in Skyrim. Skyrim's archery isn't nearly as wonky and broken as being a mage in Morrowind. Throw on some gear to raise your enchanting level to 101 and zap NPCs with rings & amulets. Brew up fortify intelligence potions for a limitless mana pool. Simply wear the Mantle of Woe indoors for 5X mana. Enchant a ring with 100 points of Jump and never worry about sticking the landing once your acrobatics skill is high. Its very difficult to die from fall damage in Morrowind, despite what the Bosmer (Thoronir, I think?) with the scrolls of Icarian Flight might lead a person to believe. Why aiming for specific body locations was never added to Skyrim after 10 years, especially considering that is par for the course in Fallout, is inexplicable to me. The only reason to go for a head shot in Skyrim is for an aesthetic choice. Sword & board is underrated, especially with the perk with allows a shield to block and absorb elemental damage. It goes off the rails into crazy town when you take block to 100 and simply shield charge everyone as they fly off in various directions. You turn into the Juggernaut from X-Men comics. As to the investment of perks into things like Quiet Casting, let's be honest. Levelling in Skyrim isn't challenging. Since mana regenerates, simply casting whatever the move quietly spell is called over and over as you travel is an easy route to rank 50 in Illusion. Holding down the magic juice button for the "just lead me by the nose" clairvoyance spell also raises the skill. I'm a bit rusty on what things are called. Haven't played the game in seven years. With a single ending which really isn't an ending and very little restricting your access to what the game holds beyond picking team Blue or team Red, I found the game to be beautiful to look at and listen to, but not worth much in terms of replay. I combed the maps & found very little unique or out-of-the-way content to reward exploration. Morrowind had grottoes & shipwrecks on the ocean floor which you often only stumbled upon through luck. Then again, one enormous difference between playing Daggerfall & Morrowind and playing Skyrim is there weren't countless forum posts about the "optimal" playstyle when those games were fresh. The mantra was to just have fun and find your own way to break the game.

[@chrisr4023]

For me, it simply boils down to immersion (RP). If you are for real going to explore a haunted cave full of zombies, you are going to take it slow. You dont want to be jumped. You want to see everything before they see you, and preferable kill them quick with minimum noise.

[@pdxmarine1430]

I always end up playing stealth sword and board. When you get the skill that lets you move at full speed with your shield up, it means you can stealth at full speed.