Why you SHOULDN'T switch to Blender

[@miniminimalist]

- Why you SHOULDN'T switch to Blender? - Because i don't know, how to use it. Yeah, sure.

[@remie07]

For summary dont switch to either of the software but use them all for your advantage!

[@grizjan]

I started in Blender a couple years back then switched to C4D because I was able to afford it and felt comfortable with it... Now with the Blender updates and C4D crashes, I'm tempted to switching over to Blender especially because of Geo Nodes. Very good vid!!

[@lesterlauritzen]

Geo Nodes have made a huge difference in capability. It has really boosted my confidence in being able to switch mostly all my professional work over.

[@bbrother92]

does Blender have better realismus?

[@jbdh6510]

@@bbrother92 realism isn't depended on wether you are using Blender, Maya, Houdini, C4D or other software

[@abeblue]

@@bbrother92cycles is the Worst at photorealism but check « Albin merles » works. He is the goat for photorealism in blender

[@lesterlauritzen]

As the growing generation enters the workforce, I believe blender will become the de facto program in a lot more professional realms. Just like the generation that pirated Adobe ended up making it the industry standard, the same will happen with this generation with blender. It will be what they know and are comfortable with because they had access.

[@lesterlauritzen]

@@jeffhaf1 I'm saying people will learn what they have easy and free access to. Blender indeed lacks much still, but it is catching the professional programs at a very fast rate these days. The pro programs increment very little with each version, because they've mainly flushed out all the professional tools, which has given blender the time to start catching up.

[@Thysta]

You contradict yourself. If pirated PhotoShop became industry standard, it means it is completely unrelated from being open source or not.

[@lesterlauritzen]

@@Thysta Pirating is way less prevalent for the current generation than it was for mine. Most current software can't be pirated anymore (at least not nearly as easily) because of the subscription models the industry has adopted. Better open source software today is also likely a contributing factor to less pirating. Why incur the inherit risks associated with pirating if you can just use an open source software that can do mostly all the same things?

[@Thysta]

​@@lesterlauritzen We are talking about C4D, which can be easily pirated. Generalizing and diversion is a common defense tactic.

[@lesterlauritzen]

@@Thysta Okay, so I am defending my stance, that is correct. I think the subject of Blender being a viable option requires a holistic view at the state of open source software, in general, professional creative software, in general, and what the future workforce has access to today, in general. I am only sharing the perceived shift I foresee in the industry. You are entirely justified in having your own opinion. Only time will tell. You are right, the video was focused mainly on C4D vs Blender. My comment was speaking to the future of blender in the industry, going against all other competitors. Blender may never be the best tool for any one specific job, but most people will stick to what they know over investing the time to learn something new (another generalization, yes).

[@veniaminshabel3039]

"Blender isn't user friendly" some time later "Houdini is great". Eh okay..............

[@MotionLove]

He said that for Houdini's docu, not the app itself..

[@omeralsoma_]

I gotta say I started to learn blender 3 months ago and am very surprised by how it's so stable, the learning curve it's the most painful experience but it's worth it

[@ProjectAtlasmodling]

well when anyone can submit a bug patch and that there is a dedicated part of the development cycal specifically for bugs that tends to happen

[@Damian_DH]

in my case learning blender went smooth after i translate all my shortcuts from previous softwares took me about 2-3 days i did the same with z brush now every software i use is in my confort zone the problem with this method is when im studying at uni and all softwares are by default it drives me insane. So teachers let me produce shit at home because they see results week by week.

[@heckensteiner4713]

I've been using Blender professionally for over 3 years now and I am STILL in that learning curve. The UI is so quirky to the point I don't think I'll ever master it completely, but I love the software overall and it's able to do almost everything I've thrown at it.

[@ProjectAtlasmodling]

@@heckensteiner4713 I don't think is so much the UI and more of there's always something to learn

[@SmallerLives]

I hope you are sticking with it. Blender was the first 3D software I ever used, so I had to learn all the techniques and terminology from scratch. I can't say it was easy, or always enjoyable, but every single day I learned something new until I got to where I wanted to be with it (although six years in I am still learning!). As frustrating as it might be at times, day by day you are building the ability to make films of objects that do not exist. Who ever thought that would be easy? If you stick with it, in my experience, you will have the most unimaginably rewarding hobby you could ever possibly imagine. Wishing you all the best!

[@zackrobat]

With blender it's never a question of "whether" but "when". I like this video, and it makes the argument that now is not a good time, because there are still some things that c4d does better. It could very well be true in 2022! But the true bottom line is that the speed of code contributions going into blender is increasing, and is not only coming from community developers but also from major industry players across the board. At some point blender will simply leave all the other options in the dust. It's pretty much happening now, but the proprietary competitors just haven't rolled over yet. Already -- as we see in this video -- the arguments are the that proprietary software is better for niche cases. Each year, it will be more and more obvious that it's time to switch. And as more people do switch to blender, the remaining holdouts will find their position shakier and shakier. There just is no reason to spend all that money, throwing it all into the wind, when the free option does everything if you just choose to learn it. Blender's supremacy has already arrived -- all that remains is to overcome people's inertia against learning a new tool.

[@ElvinDude]

Well said!

[@carso1500]

Yeah, 10 years ago the argument was "blender is good but here is everything that you can do in all the other tools better and faster compared to blender" then 5 years ago it was "blender is good but it's a pain to learn compared to every other software and it's not industry standard and still lacks a lot of tools and functionality" and now the argument this "blender is good for practicaly everything but here are some edge cases un which this tool is better than blender" As time goes on blender catches up very fast Like at this point what does Cinema 4D has over blender? That its user friendly, It's documentation?

[@TheLizardKing752]

After Softimage was discontinued I struggled to find a piece of software I felt comfortable with. I've gravitated towards Houdini because of my programming background, and although I respect Blender and use it frequently for sculpting I simply do not feel at home in it. I've tried, repeatedly, to sit down and get comfortable with it's interface but that's really the biggest holdup for me. It feels like a constant process of knowing what I want to create but being unable to find the menu or shortcut key I need. I feel really at home in Houdini.

[@SupSupa10]

With my best projects, Cinema 4D for sure is best software on the Universe. Not only easy and effecient, when I find out the secret power inside C4D, and how it helped for my best projects, I think I fall in love with C4D from that momment :)). Blender cannot do it, and Houdini cannot do it without hard coding. But anyway, I still use Blender for modelling, sometimes its nodebase is helpful, and I still use Houdini for some heavy water simulation. Now I have Tyflow more and my workflow is added more power ! But C4D is still the best for sure !!! The feeling of accomplishing extraordinary things with the ease of understanding is such a blissful climax !!!

[@GooDogProductions]

I could not agree more with you, Zack!

[@desainekosjaya5745]

This also happened to me when I had been using Corel Draw for a long time and then a client suddenly sent me Adobe Illustrator files, in the end I mastered both and it was very useful for dealing with many different situations in graphic design. By knowing the advantages and disadvantages of each software, they can complement each other.

[@Ruan3D]

I honestly don't understand why people say Blender is not user friendly. Once you know the basic shortcuts, it's super easy, fast and user friendly. And free - and powerful. I've used most major 3D applications from 3dsmax, Modo, Maya, C43 to even Fusion 360, and Blender is by far the most user friendly one, once you learn just the basic shortcuts.

[@sychuan3729]

Yes I also don't understand it. You can't use any 3d soft without some tutorials , and after that they are very similar. Also 3dMax is definitely LESS user fiendly than Blender

[@77wolfblade]

I think it's people just being impatient that don't have the heart to learn the basics, and want to learn everything in one go.

[@hirkdeknirk1]

Having worked with MAX for 20 years, it is unfortunately impossible for me to consider Blender user-friendly. I've made several attempts to learn Blender and I just don't get the mindset.

[@Ruan3D]

@@hirkdeknirk1 You should try - I started with Max for DOS, then moved to Max for Windows, then Maya, Modo, C4D, then back to Maya. Finally I decided to give Blender another try. Everything I do in 3D is so much quicker and much more fun.

[@TheLizardKing752]

I learned on Softimage in high-school in like 2005 and really struggled to migrate to something else after it was discontinued. My fingers still occasionally go to it's shortcut buttons if I'm not paying attention. I tried in earnest with Blender for several months pretty recently, and I just couldn't. I'm not trying to knock Blender, I actually use it pretty frequently for sculpting, just trying to explain what I went through trying to learn to do any serious hard-surface modeling. I even had a printed-out list of shortcut keys on my desk at one point. I feel like I gave it a serious effort and I can't quite put my finger on why, but I just couldn't feel "at home" with it. I think one evening I need to transform some selected points and needed to move their pivot point to one of the points in the corner instead of the center of the selection and spent like 20 minutes looking up how to move a pivot point. I'm sure it's easy for someone who's been using Blender for a long time, but there were so many little operations like that which felt connected to arbitrary UI elements or keypresses. I began to loose track of what I was trying to create and got pretty frustrated at spending more time learning the UI than creating anything cool.

[@stultuses]

Everyone loves to back the under dog, there is something good about beating the top dog. I remember when people would scoff at Blender taking on Maya but then over time, it improved so much that the scoffing stopped. However, there is a danger when the under dog grows up and becomes so good it starts to force it's ways of doing things onto the world, it becomes conceited and slowly loses the ability to really listen to what people want and more importantly, starts to cater to immediate needs instead of breaking new grounds and new ways of thinking and doing things. Look at ios and now Android, innovation has slowed, it's just polishing existing concepts now, there has not been revolutionary changes on those two os's for a while now. Blender needs to stay always vigilant, always looking to take the product into the future, even experiment with radical concepts that might even fail, it cannot just take the path of meeting immediate needs or it will be overtaken by others. Innovation is exactly that, it unfamiliar, it's trying, it's sometimes painful and awkward, let's hope Blender always keeps an aspect of this in it's nature.

[@yarugatyger1603]

Honestly when I apply to a job in the VFX industry, they don't ask for Blender and the don't ask for C4D either, they ask for Maya and Houdini. Both Industry Standard.

[@KrazyIndeed]

All depends on what your goals are.. I use Blender A LOT. But, I use it to model and texture my game assets. I don't use it for animation or video projects.. But, I did try them out. And, I was HIGHLY impressed with the results. I have no experience editing CGI video and I made a jet land in my driveway that looked AWESOME. Being able to model a jet in an hour, put it into a video in about an hour (learning) and having the result I got was amazing! I have zero complaints with Blender. It's a learning curve, like every other software.

[@imiy]

I was new to 3d, didn't have experience in any software - so i was unbiased. Started to learn c4d but i found blender actually more user friendly. Even the simplest - to figure out what to put inside what (green and purple modifiers stuff)... That's cumbersome. Maybe if you're already used to it that's obvious to you. But that's not user friendly. Also, there must be a reason c4d steals blender's Interface in the newest updates :)

[@koulikdas8133]

absolutely 💯

[@md.nur-e-riyadsharon9835]

I agree with u

[@Villager_U]

I remember looking at new c4d ui and be like "damn, this looks like blender"

[@marc0matic]

Watched this video. Switched to Blender. Win.

[@stylezmorales]

My first attempt at learning 3D was with 3DS Max and Maya, but this was way below tutorials existed and I was way too inexperienced to use either. I also tried c4d, again I was far too inexperienced to use it. A couple years ago I got into vfx and learned about blender when I was watching Corridor Digital, I found BlenderGuru's donut tutorial and haven't looked back since. Blender being free and having such a wife range of available tutorials and large community has helped me to understand 3d so much so that now I can learn the other software and actually understand them better. Blender has been a huge help! Thanks for your video, nice to hear what stone of the differences are, as someone who is starting out these videos are such a great help!

[@kendarr]

You'll always need to learn to use anything you touch, blender having that community is absolutely a must for this. I have been using it since 2.62, it has grown much more since then, but I'm used to it, I know how to make stuff, you'll only learn once, and apply forever.

[@GaryParris]

exactly

[@mopolo]

This video script seems ai generated. Blender is way easier to get started than c4d. Even the yt tutorials are way better with all these content creators making straight to the point tutorials that waste no one's time and get you to do what you want immediately

[@manosheal8336]

Blender was a very big pain starting it compared to C4D. I would not just accuse the script for that lol

[@DavidLGood]

It really just comes down to what you get used to... what you have experience in. If you have to "ask the community" on how to do something, it's simply because you haven't done it before. You likely have to ask questions whenever you're starting out with anything -- that's how you learn. Electric Image Animation System was one of the first 3D applications I got started on to any real success. Loved it. I know it. I tried Blender, got frustrated... but with the recent versions over the past couple years they changed a lot of the beginner frustrations. I have C4D... and it now just sits mostly being unused. After spending a few years in Blender I'm pretty confident at knowing how they lay things out and where things are -- so my ignorant searches for answers are less and less. If I now wanted to do the same thing in Cinema 4D I'd be asking the community a lot of questions. That doesn't mean C4D is hard to learn or that everything is hidden... it just means I've fallen behind the curve on experience with it. It's as simple as that. Love them both... but if I had to choose only one, Blender would it without hesitation.

[@omarspiderahmed]

Exactly my thoughts. Very well said!

[@artekal3d]

Precisely. If you don't ask or learn from the community, you remain in your own bubble. And ignorance is bliss for a while, until you step out in the real world and you realize how little you know and can't do everything on your own.

[@BoutaibYassine]

PS: i am not reading from a script, thats just how i speak my mind ( i look somehwere for a long time) 😂

[@holgicg]

Bro, you are very charismatic, thanks for the video)

[@bazibada]

From my 5 years experience with C4D professionnalyn the thing is that yes, it's user friendly and very fast to do simple things or basic mograph, but when you want to do more complex setups it becomes really painful and buggy as some modules or tags don't play weel with each other. Also and as you stated for particules or simulation you need external plugins (and X-Particles licencing system is almost a scam). So many things don't work as expected when mixing fields, vertex maps, effector colors, etc. Blender has its quirks but also a lot of strengths, Houdini too. And I feel C4D is becoming a whole Adobe like mess with each new update. But well, to anyone's their favourite tools :)

[@omarspiderahmed]

Here is why I think the video's title is a little too out there: I think User-friendliness mostly effects learning speeds of beginners. Once you get proficient enough at using most 3D software packages, user-friendliness in my opinion because much less valuable, since you know how to use the tools you need regardless. I started using blender back in version 2.76, and while it was anything but user-friendly and certainly lacked a lot of features at the time, I fell in love with it above programs like C4D, Maya, and 3DS Max (after trying them, ofcourse). Yes, it was a free alternative to the rest and had a good and growing community, but that wasn't what hooked me. I really liked the quick and smooth workflow + the ergonomics blender offers (to me at least). Price and communities are a factor when choosing a 3D software package to stick to, but I think the most important reason people need to follow is just their own personal preferences. Most 3D software is capable of nearly everything we need (some are better than others in some features, but it's irrelevant to an extent here for most of us), and so people should just look at the user-experience and the tools each piece of software offers and pick what they need. If people prefer C4D, go for it. Blender? Sure! 3DS Max or Maya? All the power to you! It doesn't matter in the end. People have different tastes - the user-friendliness, as well as being theoretical and objective in a lot of manners, is also subjective, and some people don't mind trading off some user-friendliness for a workflow and experience they prefer in general. User-friendliness really drops off in the long-run, so it shouldn't be *all* you're basing your argument on. It's not a very strong point to make at all, in my opinion at least. Maya and 3DS Max aren't that great regarding user-friendliness either. Does that mean people shouldn't switch to them? *No!* People can try the software out and dictate to themselves whether or not the user-experience and workflow of said software suits them or not, and whether they're willing to put time into learning it. A lot of people love Maya and 3DS Max just because they prefer it over other software. You also don't have to ask the community for most things if you're generally proficient in blender. Learning blender is the same as learning C4D and other software - lots of research, reading, and experimenting. I do agree that C4D is great for accessing a lot of effects very quickly though. This is why I think this video's title (and the content to an extent) isn't really great. You're saying people *shouldn't* switch to blender because of an issue that has a big subjective element, and shouldn't have a massive effect on most users in the longterm. By discouraging people from switching to blender, you're lessening the chance of some people who may prefer blender as a program from switching to it. I'm not pro-C4D or pro-blender here. I'm not saying you should switch from one to the other. I'm saying that the program you choose to switch/stick to is entirely up to you, and that this video (especially with the very subjective take) should not greatly influence that. Try the diverse selection of 3D software yourself, and pick what you like! This is not just the ramblings of a blender fanboy - I love all 3D software regardless. I'm just highlighting the fact that the major point he was making in this video just wasn't very good.

[@TheLizardKing752]

I'm a Softimage refugee, and a few years back had to evaluate what I was gonna switch to. I agree that user interface is mostly a learning curve issue. I like Blender, especially that it's opened so many industry doors for people, but the main reason I chose to not switch to Blender as my primary tool was the sheer amount of functionality hidden behind keyboard shortcuts and menus that didn't feel logically grouped together by function. My learning method is generally to start with menu items, then adopt the shortcut if I use that function frequently enough. I felt like with Blender I was having to start with memorizing arbitrary shortcut keys that took up a lot of brainspace when I wanted to be creating cool stuff. I really tried, but just couldn't feel "at home" the way I did with Softimage. I'd want to add edge loops or weld vertices or something and there was like a weird 15 second delay as I remembered what sequence of keys to press. After a month or so of using Blender frequently it wasn't getting easier. I'm sure it eventually would have gotten automatic, and I do use Blender's sculpting tools frequently though, they're great!

[@antonioruizmonteagudo1281]

You are in the path of the light and wisdom, and blender is your candle.

[@SupSupa10]

With my best projects, Cinema 4D for sure is best software on the Universe. Not only easy and effecient, but when I find out the secret power inside C4D and it helped for my best projects, I think I fall in love with C4D from that momment :)). Blender cannot do it, and Houdini cannot do it without hard coding. But anyway, I still use Blender for modelling, sometimes its nodebase is helpful, and I still use Houdini for some heavy water simulation. Now I have Tyflow more and my workflow is added more power ! But C4D is still the best for sure !!! The feeling of accomplishing extraordinary things with the ease of understanding is such a blissful climax !!!

[@hellayeahhella4014]

I worked with c4d for 5 years straight and then its been two years that i switched to blender.. I don't regret it you can do everything in blender easier than in cinema... Geo nodes are amazing as well the software is completely free it has millions of features as well as millions of plugins. it really amazing and i will never switch back into c4d the only thing that i miss is the arnold render for the accuracy of the renders and light transportation algorithms but for the rest i am happy in Blender

[@Mynkkk1717]

Bro what about the render engine 😢 I think blender's cycle is nowhere close to octane. Correct me if i was wrong!

[@jotten8587]

new evee is coming soon@@Mynkkk1717

[@jbdh6510]

@@Mynkkk1717 ok can use octane for free in blender

[@ajuelee]

@@Mynkkk1717 cycles is just more complex than octone，but rendering better than octone include glass material（cycles ’s glass is very difficult）.I always miss arnold

[@PowerWildMetal]

Blender is good enough to make amazing video production despite some defaults but at least it doesn't have absolutly busted thief prices to be able to work with...

[@BoutaibYassine]

100% agree

[@welt_der_tutorials]

I bought CD4 twenty-five years ago, and I love the software. As a amateur, I would like to purchase an old version for a reduced prize (for exemple Version R10). But there are only subscriptions-models ... I have to say, that Blender forces me to work harder for the same result.

[@miriades]

Is it frustrating on the long run?

[@welt_der_tutorials]

@@miriades Blender is great, so it's no better way to get a free ticket in the world of 3D-Design.

[@miriades]

@@welt_der_tutorials ok I see thanks 😊

[@aidansamuel7676]

Great video. I personally use blender in the industry working as a VfX artist and ive over time needed to learn Maya aswell and for me it wasnt a matter of im switching to this software or that software. For me it was that both softwares did something better then the other in certain fields. Yes i use blender for the majority of my 3d work but i often find myself switching to do certain things. Overall using more tools made me a better artist. Anthoer thing to tell the community is that when working in the industry for big game or vfx studios. They use multiple diffrent softwares to get the final shot. Its very commen for a shot to go through 4 to 6 softwares b4 getting the composting stage so never be closed minded to working in other 3d/texturing/simulation suits

[@hectorescobar9450]

Crazy how Blender use to be the joke of the 3D industry and now is the most popular tool not only for hobbyist but also for the majority of 3D artist working in games.

[@allexrain]

Oh man, I agree with you 100%. I worked in Blender, for a half a year, it's sooo great, but damn, cinema 4D, feels so comfortable.

[@zentriceggofficial]

Good insight. I wanted to escape C4d for many years because of the cost of the software and how incomplete it was (requiring many plugins). Also I saw the C4d plugin scene fade away. I saw how healthy the Blender scene was and how Blender has so many features missing from C4d. But I agree with the positives you list for Maxon's software as well. I forced myself to learn blender last December. I find the UV mapping/editing far more intuitive with the latter although the endless shortcuts were daunting at first.

[@Rivental]

What features blender has that c4d dosen't?

[@zentriceggofficial]

@@Rivental Built in fire and fluid simulation, better UV editing, better node system including geometry nodes, massive plugin market with affordable plugins. Many other features I prefer since switching to Blender. I find it easier to complete projects.

[@GaryParris]

all software takes focused time and energy to make it work for you, learn the tool, find a way to achieve with that tool is normal to any software no matter if paid or free

[@irrerknaller5085]

@@Rivental it's free

[@emotedeeeznuts]

Dude it's the opposite, Blender needs a lot of plugins to be even close to Cinema 4D

[@basspig]

I'm a 20 plus year Maya user who 3 years ago I decided to start learning blender. All I can say is that despite all the pretty bells and whistles trying to do anything in blender of any serious nature is always met with frustration. I always end up going back to Maya to get real work done.

[@Maarten-Nauta]

Just wondering, what type of scenes do you struggle with on blender. Im looking to try some other softwares next to blender as an environment artist so would like to hear from a maya veteran.

[@basspig]

@@Maarten-Nauta anything not involving simple boxes. Basically any complex shape. I have both modeling headaches and UV headaches. But the thing I did easily in Maya, which was make a camera follow a path and bank around the turns, I could not accomplish in Blender after hours of experimentation. Takes me 30 seconds to set that up in Maya. With Blender, there is too much "inside knowledge" required to do anything beyond modeling with box shapes.

[@Rairun]

Can it be also because you used Maya 20 and Blender 3 years? (:

[@basspig]

@@Rairun No, I don't think so, because I was productive in Maya after about a year of study and practice. I think it may be that my brain is too aged now and learning is no longer possible for me.

[@covakoma1064]

I was waiting somebody to tell me this, UI of blender scares me. 3ds max is still better if you ask me, but i think also future is blender

[@kuromiLayfe]

Sadly a huge trend with professional graded software .. pay to use it ..pay more the use it better and pay even more to make sure it keeps working better

[@wolvenfx45]

Great video, I'm a huge Blender fan (Switched from Maya) and a lot of the issues you mention about Blender, can be said about Maya. In my opinion, C4D and Blender/Maya are completely different tools, despite being able to do about everything in both. All the user friendly options in C4D are good for motion design and quick/effective concept, and I think that's where C4D is good at. The learning curve for Blender is steeper but eventually you won't ask that much, so keeping all the tools in your belt is good advice. Keep working with the tools you're comfortable with, while learning new ones. But for doing VFX shots for example, Blender might be an overall better tool. Just like doing compositing in Nuke is probably a better idea than doing it in After Effects, even if AE can do VFX compositing.

[@nrdkraft]

This video was reverse clickbait; as a Blinder user I thought this video would make me sad but the conclusion was actually satisfying.😆 I think asking what’s the best software is it like asking what the best language is. People could give you an answer, but even if one is better than the others, that won’t be so for everyone who uses their own. The one you grew up using is the best for you. But that doesn’t mean we can’t find good points in others or even learning them given the choice if we find doing so worth it.

[@DaddyMouse]

"Frustration is the biggest issue for any software" I felt that. As a content creator myself, frustration made me lose my creative drive for months. My final straw was when I spent a week editing a video, and then another week trying to make the software render said video. After that I was adamant about switching editing programs. I don't care about the features of a software if at the end of the day, I can't get to use it.

[@TheLizardKing752]

I get so annoyed having to use Adobe premiere because it's what the company I work for uses and I don't really have the option to not use it.

[@artekal3d]

@@TheLizardKing752 I totally agree, Premiere Pro is very annoying! Even after effects feels better to use as a video editor haha And i really wish the blender video editor gets better in future because then i won't have to rely on a lot of softwares for video editing

[@nobodysausage]

I did switch to maya because cinema 4d is crashing non stop

[@dekonstrukcija]

I switched to Blender from Cinema 4D, and man, I won't return back to that program again. The possibilities of Blender and the knowledge around it are immense. Let's not talk about the how fluid Blender feels and works compared to that old C4D code. Anyways, propaganda like this is desperate, tragic and funny at the same time.

[@sebastianmurra]

Moved to blender from c4d. One of the best decisions in my 3d career. I miss though, the ease of use of some mograph stuff and also specific things like a single spline wrap for multiple objects. Thats just details, everything else has been advantages and faster workflow.

[@SupSupa10]

With my best projects, Cinema 4D for sure is best software on the Universe. Not only easy and effecient, when I find out the secret power inside C4D, and how it helped for my best projects, I think I fall in love with C4D from that momment :)). Blender cannot do it, and Houdini cannot do it without hard coding. But anyway, I still use Blender for modelling, sometimes its nodebase is helpful, and I still use Houdini for some heavy water simulation. Now I have Tyflow more and my workflow is added more power ! But C4D is still the best for sure !!! The feeling of accomplishing extraordinary things with the ease of understanding is such a blissful climax !!!

[@DManimations1]

Youre just used to c4d, but no one needs c4d. The learning curve is the price for a premium software thats nothing less then a swiss army knife made for excellence.

[@vuk8550]

I started my 3d journey in C4D a few years ago, but switched to Blender after a while and haven't touched C4D in some time. Always had the idea Blender was inferior, but more economical option, but with what I know now, I can definitely say I am sticking with Blender. C4D was always a little ahead, but with Blender getting geometry nodes, simulation zone, new UV packing engine, new UI, Asset Browser etc, I am not sure if Blender is now ahead, but mograph has a serious competitor with Blender's geo-system. If C4D were free, I'd have to consider it more deeply, but as it is, Blender takes the win in my book. And I can't wait to see what the next major update, Blender 4.0 will look like. Cycles getting a big update, 'Eevee-Next', Sculpting updates, huge updates to rigging and animation, grease pencil is getting its third major rewrite, Geo system getting a bunch of new nodes etc. Future is bright for Blender!

[@jollycheese5382]

I used to solely use blender, but now I mainly use Houdini for simulations and 3D motion graphics. The quality of Houdini simulations and their procedural nature makes my life so much easier. The only thing that sucks about Houdini is the fact that modeling workflow is a pain which is why I still use blender.

[@alexmajewski9235]

Same. Seeing how Houdini tackled various workflows opened my eyes to Blender's flaws and missing functionality. Now I use Houdini for everything, including modelling.

[@TheLizardKing752]

@@alexmajewski9235 I'll occasionally rough something out in Houdini and then use Blender for it's sculpting tools and bring it back to Houdini. Blender's sim tools are nice if you're trying to create the specific thing the tool was intended for, e.g. cloth for a flag that's flapping in the wind. But if you're trying to think bigger it really starts to show it's limitations and Houdini really starts to shine.

[@kudjo24]

Talking the real shit over here, very true. Theres a giant Blender / C4D squabble and meanwhile Houdini / Unreal are the future of 3D pipelines. If Blender nails down a true real time renderer then it'll stick around, but 10 years from now, clients and corporations are looking to nuke rendering cost to $0 on their sheets, so something to think about.

[@TheLizardKing752]

@@kudjo24 Procedural workflows are definitely the future, they also reduce development time/cost drastically. The way both Houdini and UE5 are engineered is also extremely forward-thinking. With Houdini, new features can be incorporated into their nodes workflow in a way that doesn't clutter up the main UI, whereas with a lot of other software I've used, Especially Adobe products but also with Blender, new features feel tacked on, with a ballooning of UI buttons, menus and panels over time. A lot of people laud Blender for having vast numbers of people participating in it's development, which is great, but it suffers from too many cooks syndrome. There's a huge benefit to having a smaller team with a cohesive vision for how the software evolves. I don't want to sound like I'm on a high horse, but a lot of people get into Blender and have this weird allegiance to it, which is fine, but they'll say things about doing particle or fluid sims in Blender like it's equivalent to Houdini's sims and it's like, oh, my sweet summer child... you just don't understand.

[@jbdh6510]

Which render engine do you use in Houdini?

[@safwanm3377]

Cinema4d gansta till blender introduces GeoNodes

[@PeterRobieArt]

You hit on the biggest thing "Use the tool that works for you." I think that's where a lot of people get stuck is they become tied to one software package. I was told once "We don't care what software you used. We care if you got the end result you wanted."

[@GillMestari]

I believe you have to use whatever works for you. I swapped to Blender and I left Both Mac Os and Windows environment for Linux. It just works for me, it gets the job done and I don't mint to ask for things in the community because I've done that for ages with Cinema 4D since version 8. In blender I've got everything I need and if I need to pay for an add-on it wont cost me a fortune like all the Cinema 4D plugins I've bought through the years.

[@Animotions01]

Show me a feature length Character driven, animated film made with Maxon Cinema4D. Show me a C4D option (even paid, third party), that enables me to grab a character from Sketch fab etc. rig it in minutes and retarget mocap to the human IK control rig from my PN suit ,Mixamo,UE skeleton or from Iclone. similar to what I can do with my $40 USD auto rig pro addon Show me a NATIVE fluid sim in C4D that can match a Blender manta flow fluid simulation. And BTW if I have a mission critical third party plugin for C4D that gets broken by an update ,what are my options for acquiring an older version from Maxon?

[@adiiiiii1]

You're on point but look from different perspective as well. Try to find product animations made in Blender that are on the same level as lots of C4d one's. I also use Blender and I love it, but it's not as good in that field just yet. It's probably just a matter of time though.

[@Animotions01]

@@adiiiiii1 I used Maxon C4D for over 10 years , I still have an R26 perpetual installed. I don’t really do any Motion graphics these days but if someone commissioned me at proper $rate$ for some 3D Motion graphics then ....Yes I would probably fire up my “old” C4D and do it proper before tooling around with Blenders Geonodes even with the “Animax” addon that does 90 percent of what mograph can do. However C4D Mograph has far better 3D text creation tools as well as import of spline curves from Adobe illustrator for 3D logos etc.

[@AbhayRajKarun]

@@adiiiiii1 I want to do product animations and really torn apart on what to learn blender or c4d. Please give me your thoughts on it.

[@UnbekanntesSubjekt]

The price for any other tool than Blender is insane, doesn't matter if its C4D, Maya or 3DS. Who pays 64 bucks per month to learn something? Houdini and Unreal do it right, you can use it, you can learn it and if you earn money with it, you have to pay. Thats a fair deal, but any other software is way to expensive just to learn. Maybe this tools may be necessary to work in the industry, but as freelancer or hobbyist this is not an option for me.

[@offthecufff]

i do agree that blender is not as user friendly as other softwares and you may need a tutorial to figure something out but you can make really great looking projects really quickly once you get the hang out of it! and if you just grab an add on either free or paid it will change your experience drastically. certain add ons ae literally one click and you have whole animated crowds. or one click and you have cars or amazing realistic materials that just get applied with a click of a button and there's so many work arounds you can do to accomplish a single task that would make it like not everyone has the same result when doing a similar project because you may have gone a different direction. but at the end of the day, blender and C4D are just tools to get something done. and it's about how you use those tools to your advantage. i like how easy it is to integrate C4D into after effects it's literally like pretty much automatically linked and you can composite so easily but blender has so many great tools that make it so fun to work with. and i also feel like the C4D community truly isn't as nice. they arent as helpful. it's HARD to find tutorials of things. people seem tight lipped about it. octane render was like impossible to install lmfao like there's so many issues but it's all about what your preference is! both can get great results!

[@offthecufff]

i also like that blender is free. i think thats HUGE. more companies need to adopt this model. da vinci resolve is there too! we need more companies to create great free options or else everyone will be switching over to these competitors that do and adobe and others will be left in the dust unfortunately

[@GyanPrakash]

Blender is the door to the world of 3D Graphics, it's where you can make your dream world, and the only limit is your imagination. It's that first step you take toward your incredible journey 🤗

[@plco222]

I´ve been working in c4d cca 13yrs, now im switching to blender, Maxon doesnt listen to community feedback, its overpriced and getting out of touch with standards, literaly no feedback to bug report, im fed by their attitude

[@ThatElfNerd]

I think the issue of what keeps me from getting software like Cinema 4D is specifically pricing. I don't like subscriptionware, and the perpetual license isn't worth it because after some time, the newer version will have features that the old version doesn't, and then you'll have to pay for a new license. As someone fresh out of college and with no stable income, there's no way the price would ever be worth it, even if it is more user-friendly. Even if it takes more time, Blender's always going to be available, and I never have to pay for updates. But I also think what helps make that decision for me is that my teachers didn't make Cinema4D, nor 3DS Max, nor Maya the main tool to teach us 3D in. We started with Blender, so we already have that familiarity, which makes trying to sell the other products that much harder. So I get not wanting to make the shift, because at the end of the day, you're more familiar with one product than another. But in my case as a beginner, who used Blender more, Cinema4D's the harder sell for me.

[@sundaylee91]

you forgot about addon bro, for example the dome light, you can just use an add-on called Easy HDRI in Blender, and you don't have to deal with world nodes, and it is really user friendly and free too. All the Motion Graphics fx in C4d can be done with Geometry nodes, yes it is really hard to do, not as easy in C4d, but you can use addon like ANIMAX(10 or 20 dollars I remember , really cheap) in Blender, again really easy, basically it does all the noding for you, you just need to tweak some settings and you have what you want just like in C4d. Not mention that geometry nodes can be shared, I believe someone I saw on KZbin already try to transfer all C4d motion Graphics tools to Blender using geo nodes long ago.

[@BoutaibYassine]

Awesome, will try to look up these addons. I do agree, i am loving geometry node so far and dont think i can go back to doing it in c4d. (personal take as of 19/12/2022)

[@TimeIsMine93]

Nodes in all forms could be year course for anyone who’s ALREADY acquainted with modeling and sculpting. But once you learn nodes really well, it feels really off not having that level of control. A $1000 dollars a year for licenses for an independent artist is a scary thing. For a corp though, filling a room with the software and having a great support system for the employees makes sense. I think going from C4D and adding blender is a bit less painful than making the leap to C4D when you’ve been using a powerful free software

[@kudjo24]

That's the main thing, Blender amateurs and freelancers overlook the more operational aspect Maxon allows on a business level. Albeit Maxon's recent Redshift acquisition has made it way more buggy than it has been in the past, so if they don't figure that out it WILL start to affect their corporate base, hence artists will continue to switch away from C4D much more than they currently are.

[@xpez9694]

older versions of c4d like R16,R18 have TP presets in the interface to assign particles to a surface and many other things. If you have them you can just set it up and save oUT A file.

[@NytroDesigns]

I like this attitude, not having to choose only one thing. I know 3DS Max, more or less. I'm not amazing with it, but I know enough at least. And then I moved to Blender cause I was using student licenses over and over, and they changed how those work so off to Blender I went. I'm glad I learned how, I was using ZModeler 1x, but goddamn. Low poly models, and the most tedious UV mapping ever.

[@rodolfoxavierneto6667]

The good thing about doing things on your own is that although things can get messy, when you really understand what you're doing you're in complete control. You won't need to wait for the devs to develop a button for you to press... even more Devs who rarely listen to their customers (see the forum for big programs like C4D and Maya)

[@jenkem4464]

Yeah Maya is hot garbage. Thing hardly works out of the box.

[@GooDogProductions]

You read my mind here! I was dumped by Keyshot after needing support for a purchased $400 version KS to ZBrush bridge. Of course, they encouraged me to buy an $800 (discount version) of KS, and that was not worth it for me. So I was pushed into Blender. But that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I dug deep into the vast world of Blender and the nodes. My jewelry renders improved dramatically. As in KS, I didn't venture too far because the presets look stunning, so we get lazy.

[@someul]

It’s Artistic control vs Ease of use generally. If you just want to get your thing done, C4D or any other industry software are the way to go. But if you want to do everything, control every pixel you see on your screen, even change how the software works in every possible way and get supported to do so, well that’s what only Blender artists can get.

[@sergioaguis]

If you want to “control” every pixel then the proper software is Houdini. For 3D modeling 3ds Max and Zbrush. There will be always better options than Vanilla Blender, but it may have great addons that worth to buy

[@MoonieGlare]

I've been using Cinema 4D for 4 years and my overall experience with it is that it is really useful at making good renders and pretty much composing in the software is really easy. But at a cost of how DIFFICULT it is to model, rig and texture. I used to download alot of plugins for so it would be easier to model and stuff but things like needing to apply all modifiers in an specific order and making sure that you need to do it on a specific way was just too stressing for me. Not only that, when I tried to get into working with doing UVs and making textures they didn't even work properly! They somehow always got their UVs messed up and it was a paint working on it. That might be most of my fault there but still. Blender is a much friendlier way to model and not only that, is that is really friendly to people like me that are looking for modelling complex characters and want to add as most detail as posible. Not only that is friendlier with the user but with other programs. If you try to export a .fbx from C4D to Blender you will see that most of the times is messed up and it barely works properly.

[@vaporama_vision]

I started with Blender a year ago pretty much by accident, just to make quick vaporwave aesthetics. Now this is has become my profession 🥰

[@supe5931]

"Noooo, don't use Blender!!! You don't understand, you NEED to spend 500 dollars per month on a license for a 3d modelling software!!"

[@spenserwilliams5515]

Haha not quite that expensive, but it is pretty painful to pay $900-ish/year for C4D+Redshift. That said as a relatively new user coming from Blender, now that I have actual jobs for real clients it's much quicker to get to where I want than all the hours I've spent frustrated in Blender. Blender is definitely better for poly-modeling and a few other things though.

[@esstev]

Thanks for this video. Im deciding which of the two 3d Software I should invest my time FIRST... My end goal is to become part of in-house team. I feel that C4d will get me tehre as Im hearing that its the industry standard (currently)?

[@Denomote]

not knowing how to use software doesn't make it bad

[@csmemarketing]

Everyone really needs to watch this video until the end.

[@treadingtheboards2875]

This is such an informative video, I have been on the edge trying to decide which way to go. I have been using C4D R11 since 2014, then R14 since 2018 (both gifts from a nephew when he upgraded to newer versions.) Prior to that, I had been using POVray and its modeller, Moray, since the late 90's. I have tried using Blender on and off, since around 2010, but as you said, it is not user friendly. Now my version of C4D is so old, and I cannot afford to upgrade, hence I am going to try Blender again. Thank you.

[@danford6678]

Tldw: I never took the time to actually learn Blender but wanted some click bait.

[@yohannesJas]

Do you have a way of exporting c4d animations to Blender while keeping the link, like after I adjust sth in blender, if i change sth in c4d ty animation updates in blender?

[@gcharb2d]

If you want a happy customer, use the tool that don't put a limit on what you can do, as I was doing when I was using Blender! 😒 Less than 2 years ago, a client wanted an animation of a large cloud bed with huge cumulonimbus clouds and biplanes flying around, it had to look cartoonish, but very detailed, and the clouds had to deform as planes were passing through them, I tried different approach in Blender, never got it to look right, I ended up sculpting the whole thing, using the voxel remesher to get even quad topology, I got it to a point where the client was about satisfied with the 3d mesh clouds, but as soon as I applied a cloud/cloud noise modifier to the mesh, Blender kept crashing, even with low resolution volumes, I solved the problem by installing Houdini, got it done in 3 days, it was bigger, it looked better, and the renders had beautiful light scattering in the clouds using Karma beta at the time, I got hooked and never looked back since!

[@Maarten-Nauta]

Is Houdini useful for creating big scenes, i thought it was mostly for simulations?

[@spenserwilliams5515]

@@Maarten-Nauta Houdini in general handles large amounts of geometry much better than most other programs, which is Blender's main struggle right now. The Blender devs have been making gains in performance during the past few releases, but it's still not close to Houdini's level.

[@gcharb2d]

@@Maarten-Nauta Sorry for the late response, yes, Houdini can handle huge datasets, especially if you pack them, you are limited by RAM, while Blender crashes easily on small scenes, even today, Blender needs a new core that can handle larger dataset, something the Blender Institute will never do, in 2021, Pablo Dobarro, the dev who improved the sculpting toolset in Blender, proposed that content creation, like sculpting, be handled in a separate application because of the polycount limitations, the Blender Institute, not surprisingly, rejected Pablo's proposal!

[@JuliBelG_kane93ify]

When I switched to C4D from Max, all I did was asking the community, and whatching a lot of tutorials cause I had no idea about anything. So, once you learn where everything is, you stop asking, and start doing. It's any software's story

[@shadowfallenable]

Softimage XSI was all of those best features combined… still imo is the best 3D software ever! It was crashing all others 3D softs (Maya, 3D max, Houdini, Lightwave, Cinema) that made Autodesk buy it, just to get a rid of it. 😅😅

[@katabhishek]

use asset library .......you can display everything in super speed ...drag and drop........change texture drag and drop.....change lighting drag and drop......and particle system drag and drog...add hdri drag and drop.....add model drag and drop.......add geometry node setup drag and drop ........and composition setup drag and drop.....in sculpting add brush or VDM drag and drop.......if you setup your asset browser well everything is drag and drop in blender

[@onurnidayi5785]

I switched from Cinema 4D to Blender. Firstly because of cost but also because i found I wasnt able to get me ideas down quickly in C4D. However, the Mograph tools are great. But I'm going to be getting into Geometry nodes in Blender which is supposed to be closer to the way Houdini works

[@thenout]

Yeah man, i found Blender's learning curve not a curve but a brick wall. But you'll get around to it - after a loooot of consulting and research. But the community's got your back. It used to bum me out big time that in _every_ tutorial they mention the Node Wrangler. I was luck "d'uh, we get it by now!" but now I understand why it's so important to get the message out. Still don't get why it's not just ON by default. D'uh!

[@memeose]

The only reason I use C4d rather than Blender is the Forester plugin. There a quite a lot of Add-Ons available for Blender to create Trees and while they're actually pretty good they cant compete with Forester at all.

[@jakejake6029]

I totally agree with when u said in this 6:20

[@raxlyy6416]

I work at Moving Picture Company and we use Blender here as well alongside Maya. Entering the future boys!

[@scale8125]

He makes good points. Though I started on Cinema 4d, I took a break from 3d/CG and came back because of Blender videos popping up on my feed. I now love Blender, even with its problems.

[@theloniuspoon]

I started using Blender, honestly I think this is all very project dependent. I wanted to use Blender cuz of the plugins but after having to deal with adjusting to their interface I concluded it's just less time consuming if I do this myself in Cinema 4d

[@wlz3780]

i'm trying to move to C4D 2023 now. but damn i use the same file scene but the viewport in C4D much much much SLOWER than in Blender. i dont know why. maybe blender now can handle much more polygon in scene than c4d? or is it just C4D bug? it is Archviz scene

[@JohnnyThund3r]

I started with 3ds Max but quickly decided to switch to Blender because I'm a bit of an Open Source zealot and still believe open source will inevitably replace all proprietary software. Consider that anyone can make a better version of Blender and use Blender's source code to do so... this, to me, makes Blender infinity more valuable then any other major 3d Application because by learning Blender and it's source code I'm not limiting myself to just Blender. However I do think giving up on proprietary software hurt me a bit... not so much with Blender but Gimp is still lacking and I've never been able to be as proficient in Gimp as I was in Photoshop, still I don't regret my decision. Blender is amazing and the fact we keep comparing it to Maya of c4d is a testament to how far the software has come.

[@jeffbb22]

I use Cinema 4D and Blender. I love them both. I love Cinema 4D's mograph and Xpresso and Blender's character animation and geometry nodes.

[@dm.b7560]

So if you get c4D for free cracked that means all issues are solved? and then is worthy?

[@balfua]

To be honest, my takeaway from this video is stick to Blender, lol.

[@render4dcafe]

You don't need x-particles if you know how to use thinking particles (that use nodes like other softwares), you lose the cinema's easy-to-use workflow... but in others softwares we adapts to that lack o easy-to-use workflow.

[@MrMargaretScratcher]

Did you purposefully use the same background music that Blender uses in their weekly "Blender Today" update streams?

[@MrBiswas123]

Absolutely agree .In cinema 4d you can start rendering scenes within minutes

[@Braxton1981]

That's how *all software* is supposed to be: friendly, and the more friendly, the better. A software that is not user friendly, loses its whole point of existing: the harder to use, the more lost it is. It seems like some people don't understand that. Softwares are not supposed to be difficult to use, but to make things easier to do.

[@hasindukumara5358]

So in blender too.

[@ShallotHare]

My first 3D software I actually had used was Autodesk 3DS Max, but that's mostly due to it being a necessity for my college course. I had actually moved to Blender and mastered that better for several reasons, I don't have to pay $150 a month, It's easier to change around the mesh inside modifying it to your heart's content, while with 3DS Max you have to manually go outside and adjust the settings of your mesh which is a huge time waster, and in my personal opinion, the colors rendered using 3DS Max's default render engines are pretty outdated. Blender's colors are more accurate and less saturated to fit my vision of what I'm trying to go for. While I understand it's a hassle asking the community, watching the right tutorials can really come a long way.

[@zhaoyuli1158]

really usefull for me! I'm struggling switch to blender recently and I think I have my decision nowthx for your video

[@WolfofBelgium]

I tried c4d a while ago, but when I learned after paying extra for the renderer, the plugins are super expensive, so I got a full refund. Sticking with blender !

[@DanielBrainbox]

After working almost 20 years with 3dsmax and several years with C4D i decided to try out Blender 2.8 when it came out and i was so happy with it that i completely switched to Blender without looking back to Max or C4D. Blender progressed so much over the years. First time i tried Blender back in 2009 and it was awfull i really didnt like it back in the days it but since version 2.8 i love it. Best Modeller by far.

[@covakoma1064]

3ds vs blender can you tell me more?

[@DanielBrainbox]

@@covakoma1064 Blender is superiour in many ways. Much better workflow, much faster much more tutorials on youtube and it getting better and better with each iteration and this all for free.

[@zachhall5061]

I ended up switching to Blender about 8 years ago from c4d. Had push back but I kept pushing. Now im a wizard.

[@MicDoesThings]

I switched... never going back and I have used Cinema 4D for over 15 years in production

[@swordartdesign]

iam sorry but i was use C4D for 3 years but one day i jump to Blender for now it's almost 3 years i never look back, thank you for remind me C4D that was good old time :D But mostly it's just a tool, what is fit for your style just jump to it.

[@render4dcafe]

If the people at maxon lowered the prices I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do the annual subscription (especially now with Pyro and the new particle system). But it is still very expensive, especially for those of us who are from countries like Argentina.

[@41X14Dhana]

Thanks for the video...I love how you actually address the topic on monopoly and as an artist I think all artists should be dynamic in their craft and learn multiple tools rather than sticking to one.

[@GaryParris]

You can decide to learn one free tool; than pay as an artist for many tools you would need to spend time also learning, there is nothing wrong with learning one tool to create everything you want to, that can bring you joy or save money, the artist can be free with many tools, but as an artist you can also learn and stick to one tool that's free that you know and create anyway. Artists are often the least well paid people, so paying for things you can do for free can free up your mind and concentrate on the art.

[@madbeastgamming5716]

Nothing difficult, nothing easy. Just depends on how much effort you put in and does it really worth it. Most of the time, many beginner artist don't even have a good system to run these softwares. So, try different softwares and choose what really works for you. Give one month to blender and another to C4D than compare the results in your art In 2 years, I learned blender, CRYENGINE 3 (Very hard to learn and not even has a community), unity, 3ds max a little bit and other stuff. So, if you have hunger for knowledge to be more creative and you don't think much to earn money, you can do everything.

[@princessunicorn9267]

Honestly, Blender has a lot of stuff going for it hence why it's not as demanding as other programs (cuz who wants to pay for others for outrageous prices or download more stuff for a computer at home you even have to make/buy to use the programs). I think Blender as a tool for beginners in 3D is great (I know it's not user friendly BUT even so, that's the same with other programs, I'm still learning about Maya to this day). Using it as a hobby or to develop your work can help you be able to show off what you can do. The transition then to the other programs would be adaptable. C4D DEFINITELY is something for higher demand clients (unless they specified they don't care what you use). However, I do wish still there were better pricing options, especially in a community where we're always competing against each other to land a job or get a client.

[@Taz_Olson]

It's kind of strange how as a Blender user who recently has occasionally had to start using C4D for certain things, I really HATE so much about the user interface of it compared to Blender. I think it's more about what you are used to rather than one actually being more user friendly

[@BambangSuhendra]

Totally agree with your opinion. Thanks.

[@YMARihab]

my monthly salary is 250 when converted to usd, it's enough to live alone renting a 2 room apartment with utilities and food here but I live with my family so there are some savings. there is no way I can pay 1000+ usd yearly , where the only 3d animation work I do is for hobby and semi-professional work. well if I use cracked version that's another story.

[@BoutaibYassine]

that's a very very valid point, wish all companies in all fields (not only 3d and art) could take in consideration places they sell their services on.

[@SSShingetsu]

I've been using c4d since 2018. Your video is very on point and address the exact problem with switching to Blender. Not a biased videos and points are made and explained very clearly.

[@kamudo999]

why not use both?