Why Your Favourite Racing Games Don’t Have Your Favourite Cars

My Patreon: / roflwaffle
Licencing cars for racing games is a topic that many people have strong opinions about, but very few seem to know the facts. I’m not claiming to be some sort of expert on this topic, but by pulling together all the information that we can on three cases in particular, we can start to find some truths within the murky depths of assumptions and misconceptions…
Music (in order):
ALONY - Yuki Oike (Gran Turismo 6)
Customer Creed - Hidenori Shoji (Yakuza 0)
An Old Bassman - Isamu Ohira (Gran Turismo 4)
Let me see your mind - Tyme. (Gran Turismo 5)
Your Vibe - Asuka Sakai (Ridge Racer Type 4)
Kerwan, Metropolis - David Bergeaud (Ratchet Clank)
Sterling - Lance Hayes (Forza Motorsport 4)
Sunset Breeze - Keiji Inai (Gran Turismo 6)
Main Menu - Rom Di Prisco (Need for Speed II)
Silver Stream - Tetsukazu Nakanishi (Rage Racer)
Channels credited:
/ @xtimelessgaming
/ @therealemile
/ @bestmotoring
/ @passatsdecanto
/ @arcadegamesoldschool9601
/ @gtoofast
/ @xpertgamingtech
/ @isuckatdriving
/ @zanaraesthetics
/ @davidgames95
/ @motogamestv
/ @stig2607
/ @racinggamesvideos
/ @pcgamingvideos
/ @optionauto
/ @gigachadforza2002
/ @paragleiber
/ @tendertomato
/ @hagerty
Sources:
gran-turismo.fandom.com/wiki/...
www.thegamer.com/gran-turismo...
www.thedrive.com/article/1325...
www.thedrive.com/article/1552...
www.gtplanet.net/toyota-gamin...
www.kotaku.com.au/2019/11/toy...
forza.fandom.com/wiki/Forza_M...
projectcars.fandom.com/wiki/P...
projectcars.fandom.com/wiki/P...
kotaku.com/toyota-exec-realis...
• [English] GR Supra GT ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici...
answers.ea.com/t5/General-Dis...
www.gtplanet.net/gt-sport-del...
www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo...
www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...
www.gtplanet.net/lotus-return...
www.gtplanet.net/spa-gt-sport...
www.gtplanet.net/forum/thread...
www.gran-turismo.com/gb/gtspo...
www.gtplanet.net/volkswagen-w...
uk.motor1.com/news/301476/mit...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis
tcrf.net/Forza_Horizon_5/Cars
racinggames.gg/forza/the-forz...
forums.forza.net/t/whats-goin...
forums.forza.net/t/from-fh4-t...
midnightclub.fandom.com/wiki/...
www.ign.com/articles/2011/08/...
assettocorsa.gg/porsche-pack-...
www.gtplanet.net/porsche-pull...
www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/...
www.gtplanet.net/confirmed-pi...
www.hotcars.com/real-reason-f...
mitsubishi-motors.co.uk/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubi...
0:00 Introduction
3:00 Toyota and Need for Speed
11:14 Lotus and Gran Turismo
17:47 FCA Italy brands and Forza
23:39 Porsche’s EA Exclusivity (2000 - 2016)
28:56 Conclusion

[@ileutur6863]

Its also the reason that remaking and remastering is practically nonexistent in racing games (sorry NFS fans, its never happening). Getting all the licenses all over again is a massive investment, not just for the cars, the music and sometimes even locations

[@Victor-BRz3800]

I always say "do you really want a underground 1-2 remake?" And then i start talking about cars that would probably get removed and they give up of the idea 🤣

[@ElShogoso]

@@Victor-BRz3800 not to mention all the licensed music those EA titles have

[@CyanRooper]

​@@ElShogosoHecc, some of the artists, bands etc whose music they licensed for their games no longer work for the music industry so getting those licences would be even harder.

[@Victor-BRz3800]

@@ElShogoso true

[@olnnn]

And why the older games often gets removed from sale.

[@RBG9000]

I remember when EA had exclusive rights for porsches and so they never appeared in any other games. It was a RUF time for sure!

[@ralcolfwolfcoon8207]

Ahem. Forza Motorsport?

[@meerkat5818]

Unless you were willing to pay for Porsche DLC

[@Victor_2000s]

Gemballa too.

[@ralcolfwolfcoon8207]

I'm not talking about 4, I mean 2 and 3.

[@pablofernandez2335]

@@ralcolfwolfcoon8207 the original FM also had Porsches

[@PlaceboZypresse]

Moral of the story: Licensing is fucking complicated. Don't expect everyone to be everywhere, every single time.

[@Alejandro-vp1op]

Unless you are AC

[@KikuraKun]

@@Alejandro-vp1op Which modders should release them for free since they don't have any rights from these assets.

[@AKK5I]

​@@KikuraKuneh I mean, they still spent effort modelling, coding, producing sound and art assets. They should receive compensation for their time, but ironically, these car manufacturers could just send them cease and desist letters if they cared about these guys effectively profiting of their IP

[@purwantiallan5089]

​@@KikuraKunhave u watched Nijigasaki NEXT SKY OVA last Friday? I watched it in its entirety. Now Nijigasaki also got Season 3 in the form of trilogy anime series.

[@purwantiallan5089]

​@@AKK5IDICEpwn7, seems like the car list in GT7 looked quite ruined.

[@ViperStudiosAndy]

It's ironic how EA paid for the exclusive Porsche license, but its the BMW thats remained iconic 🤣

[@MedicalBillz]

And the most remembered Porsche is infamous for going on a near 4-game streak of ruining the meta, the 911 RSR.

[@_Zekken]

Yeah that BMW is probably one of if not the most iconic car in racing games to be honest.

[@bh4vvy33t]

And the 350z

[@an4rchy_yt]

RSR

[@axl1632]

Ironically certain Porsches in some NFS titles, overthrown the overrated disfunctional bimmer in half (cough 911 GT2 cough 911 RSR cough)...

[@yaya_delta530]

I played NFS Unbound. Everyone talks about Toyota not being in the game but no one ever talks about Audi not being in the game

[@flame_101]

JDM fanboys moment

[@adlibbed2138]

​​​​​​@@flame_101 and from all the licensing talk, only I whose bold enuff to actually brought up Peugeot of all companies to the discussion lol Because, I have yet to saw a single soul to ever brought up Peugeot throughout the years ever since the whole "Toyota licensing" drama imploded like it's Star Wars Battlefront '17 lootboxes drama

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

I think Audi just pulled out of games as a whole, iirc. Toyota at least just makes it far easier for Japanese publishers and studios like Polyphony, SEGA, and Bandai Namco to get their cars and so you still see them there.

[@pabloaguirre7472]

​​​@@adlibbed2138 I absolutely missed Peugeot in PCARS 2, specially because for their Prototypes, Group B and Rallycross cars. Like was very loaded on licenses although missing some very important cars (Mazda was there but not the 787B for example) but for Le Mans races Peugeot was a missing piece.

[@vrakathen9332]

Thank you! Finally someone that knows the true problems

[@marioformicadae6637]

I hate how some companies has exclusivity to certain brands, but never use them. Its even worse how gran Turismo is the only game that can use pikes peak, but they dont even use it

[@Rocky712_]

I assume you refer to a specific time period, but Dirt Rallye has Pikes Peak.

[@adjo6792]

@@Rocky712_ the older game does.

[@AttackerPictures]

There are Pikes Peak cars in other modern games aswell

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

Gran Turismo 2 remains to this day as Pikes Peak's only official appearance in the series, not counting it supposedly being hidden in GTPSP.

[@fabiomilesliddellshepherd2711]

Rockstar nows its shiet

[@DeathInTheSnow]

Sick of car exclusivity deals, sick of DLC, sick of always-online gameplay, and sick of unfinished games being released in order to make as much money as possible.

[@blu3boi782]

can't forget the time limited "battle passes"

[@ShatteredQvartz]

Amén

[@Mr.Waffullz]

Yeah I noticed the Crew 2 is getting like every Bugatti now. Must be that French connection lol.

[@carguy_rz]

Gaming becoming mainstream is the best and also the worst thing to happen. The studios had to release a much better product when they had just a small audience.

[@rabbithole8858]

I absolutely hate how there aren't any cheat codes to simply race your favorite cars in fh5 because of online play. I have 100+ hours and never played online.

[@BryceWomeldurf]

The lack of Lotus is such a shame. I wouldn't really know much about them if it weren't for their history in Gran Turismo.

[@sadmarinersfan8935]

Definitely is like the lotus esprit is such a beautiful cool car it’s kinda shit irl but still lol

[@salamov963]

Who cares only good lotus is espirit others are boring af

[@BryceWomeldurf]

@@salamov963S1 Lotus Elise, Elise Motorsport, Europa, and Elan would like a word. Plus the new Emira and Evija look pretty good. Lotus is finally back to making good looking cars instead of ripping off Lamborghini concept designs.

[@unbearifiedbear1885]

Exige is probably the most "direct" driving experience you can have on 4 wheels.. an absolute unicorn of a machine

[@chinaoof]

@@salamov963 The Elise was the car that first introduced me to Lotus and made me more interested in it as a company in the first place

[@Hugh.Gilbert]

I would love for RUF to come back to Gran Turismo, I always loved them in the earlier games.

[@andreasmoller9798]

Ruf are in

[@CyanRooper]

The problem is that RUF was always used as a replacement for Porsche in racing games like Gran Turismo. Like it was basically "we have Porsche at home" because EA thought it would be funny if they had an exclusivity deal with Porsche with EA even going so far as to make a racing game with Porsches only (Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed or Need for Speed: Porsche 2000 depending on the region). Ever since that exclusivity deal expired no one bothered to bring back RUF to their games. And it sucks because their cars are more than just tuned Porsches. At the very least games should have the RUF CTR "Yellowbird" for historic reasons (being the world's fastest production car at one point being even faster than Porsche's own 959).

[@andreasmoller9798]

@@CyanRooper gran turismo 7 has one model of ruf, the ctr3 but more might come in the future, a couble of ruf is in the datamine

[@jounalehtio2317]

I miss the Yellowbird

[@CL4SSiCS]

​@@andreasmoller9798the ctr3 IS coming

[@apocsyn5889]

This one sure did age well, FH5 has Lancia, Alfa Romeo and Fiat being added soon

[@j4y167]

I just got back into fh5 on a fresh save, completely forgot Alfa and lancia weren't in the game originally. My most driven car is an A class 8c, super fun to drive

[@fivespeed42]

Just came in here to say, Forza has added all three that are on the thumbnail... and I'm super psyched to have my Abarth 131 back

[@nephilimdj]

Forza: to add realism, alfa cars with selespeed with get a really loud gearbox after 10k km and fail after 50k, also cata will fail which is bolted onto side of engine instead of under the car, engine will explode if oil drops under 50% without light coming on ect.

[@j4y167]

@@nephilimdj still more reliable than half the shit GM's ever put out to it's sub 80 iq low credit score customer base

[@kilianfirebolt]

As someone with 2000 hours in fh5, they still had all the licenses but didnt add them on launch because they wanted to extend player retention later on

[@harveyanimations8974]

I’m a classic car lover and I am sad that old school rides appear less and less

[@junkiexl86]

Mainly due to no one playing them. They're trailer queens that with any realistic or semi-realistic game simulation, cannot hold a candle to modern cars and their power to weight and complex suspensions, which most racing games try to emulate. Classics like classic muscle cars need unrealistic development settings to be even remotely viable to race with in games. This is a large reason why only arcade or arcade heavy games can you get away with racing them.

[@Skumtomten1]

​@@junkiexl86Thats kinda bs, at least as far as racing car goes. Cars from the 60s-70s were so advanced and fast that massive amount of regulations and electronics had to be installed to slow down progress. Not as fast as modern cars obviously but those 60s le mans cars are no joke easily going over 300 km/h. The worse handling and suspensions as well as tires and breaks only make them more fun to drive compared to the utterly boring modern "cars" that are essentially computers with wheels.

[@junkiexl86]

@@Skumtomten1 Only in drag racing. Also, the subject were talking about are production classic muscle cars, not purpose built track/race cars lol. Devs have to give classic muscles a lot of help to make them remotely viable in a racing game as most of the game isnt straight line drag races. Even speaking of real world examples, they are shit on a track. Several outlets on here have put up classic muscles to other moden muscle and other modern production cars in hot laps on real tracks vs eac other and the classic muscles are dog shit once the straightaway ends and the turns start. This is what I was getting at.

[@carbon301]

Man my favorite vehicle in forza 5 is the 1930 Bentley lol

[@someonetookmynick]

Porsche Unleashed was a cool game and had some good game mechanics from what I recall. It's a shame EA never bothered to develop anything else given their exclusive rights over the brand

[@MagicAyrtonforever]

They only care about $$$$$$$$ and making the same garbage year after year

[@Lego_Huracan_SuperTrofeo]

Not to mention, that game had 2 unique games modes that even till today were never remade into another EA game, sad to see an underrated gem gone, glad I got a copy! 😅

[@the_marvvv]

I spent so many hours with that game! It's one of my all time favorite ones.

[@keisuketakahasi4584]

was a very good game with a completely different progression with the 2 modes never really seen in other games

[@davidthorne5715]

Ea is reputable for acquiring IPs and doing absolutely nothing with them

[@mrdorifto]

You're rapidly becoming one of my favourite creators

[@diegocraigdallie]

That gives me an idea....Mister Dorifto...Fetch me the computer....No, seriously: Automation?? What about a car to represent the channel?

[@gearmeister]

Roflwaffle is my favorite creator of GT game videos 😊

[@_Sur22_]

Roflwaffle. You emerged from nowhere and suddenly you conquered our interest. I'm very impressed with yhe quality of your videos, I literally thought you were around for several years. Keep up the good, excellent work.

[@CandidaRosa889]

I'm happy that he was able to successfully leave the gt7 critique because he's really good

[@purwantiallan5089]

​@@gearmeisterme too love his videos.

[@FonikosGazmas]

Your channel is kinda a hidden gem man... Somehow all the topics are things that I miss from racing games.

[@quentinbringthenumetalchil5125]

Same.

[@crashtestdummy87]

Same.

[@MrJohnReviews]

Shame that other obscure car makers like Venturi, Vector didn't make any appearances besides Gran Turismo 2 and Test Drive 6, licensing really sucks.

[@pabloaguirre7472]

Venturi deserves better, is one of the pioneers of modern GT racing. I still love to drive those cars on GTR2 through the BPR mod.

[@jordanwilliams1454]

It's really sad to think about all of the cars from the early GT games (1-4 mainly) and Forza 1/2 that we probably wont ever see in a game again.

[@purwantiallan5089]

​@@pabloaguirre7472Venturi 400GT and Atlantique 300 also deserved notice.

[@JustGenius2001]

Heck, is Venturi and Vector are still in business or they're defunct?

[@kitsune_yoshi]

i want a trabant, wartburg or maybe a melkus in a game :(

[@rogueOW]

You gotta feel for the people who model the cars and make the sounds. All that work just for the big wigs to make decisions that makes your work useless.

[@akifhossain5122]

ToyotaGB getting ratio'd by NFS is truly a moment of all time

[@priyeshboodhram8375]

But made Toyota even stayed further away from EA

[@Harrison_fx]

1 month after uploading forza added all the italian brands he mentioned lol

[@VCMaLaRa]

Something that should also be interesting is knowing the restrictions they have when choosing which car has an engine swap and which engine they choose for each car

[@gearmeister]

It's rumored that a big percentage of the cars in GT7 which receive engine swaps, there's real life examples, of course on the 4C/458 & several others are pure fantasy

[@VCMaLaRa]

@@gearmeister Indeed, I think the vast majority of engine swaps are bordering on fantasy, but even so, they surely can't be done without the express consent of the cars companies

[@LucasMir0]

There's definetly issues in the Stellantis licensing with Forza, Playground released a Rally theme expansion to Horizon 5 earlier this year, if they had the license Lancia cars would have been included in this DLC which was the perfect opportunity.

[@kilikfanof2mrow]

The Dodge Dart (the one built on the Giulietta) was the start of the problem.

[@ShatteredQvartz]

​@@kilikfanof2mrowHow!?

[@kilikfanof2mrow]

@@ShatteredQvartz Something tells me the badge engineered cars are the ones that cause licensing issues, since you have to have both parties in agreement. Other examples are the Eagle Talon and everybody's favorite, the BRZ

[@askerleaves1614]

@@ShatteredQvartz yeah I’m just as confused as you.

[@BubbleDouble]

@@kilikfanof2mrowconsidering RUF was used as a porsche replacement I doubt that's the issue

[@GreatWesternLegacy]

They are worried people won’t want to buy their cars because they can use it in a racing game? Yeah, that’s silly. The current car I drive I used in GT6 first back in 2015 and after that I instantly wanted it for real. 3 years later I saved and bought it. It became my main in all racing games that have it in them. Plus, it’s now my daily driver and I take it to track days now. Favorite car I’ve ever owned.

[@jyhan1q94]

Good news: Alfa Romeo, Fiat and Lancia to FH5. Bad news: This video still doesn't age like milk.

[@DedAlexFive]

Heres another thing I always wondered about car licensing: how is the "You can show this much aesthetic damage on our cars" thing decided? I remember playing Driver San Francisco and be surprised that I could make a Porsche lose its front wheels after a particularly heavy head on collision, or that I could make a Countach lose its doors and hood. What gives?

[@quentinbringthenumetalchil5125]

I’ll never forget those days. Just driving a hypercar or a sports car around San Fran only to find an even cooler car and shifting Tanner into it. I wish that game had a sequel.

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

Yeah, it might explain why many games didn't feature visual damage models until the PS3/X360 era (with some exceptions such as earlier NFS games like High Stakes and HP2).

[@CyanRooper]

They used to be more lenient when it came to damage models. Need for Speed Prostreet and Driver San Francisco both feature detailed damage models and both came out in the late 2000s/early 2010s. Around the time of the PS4 and Xbox One's release they suddenly stopped being so lenient. No one can offer a concrete explanation as to why though.

[@Victor_2000s]

@@ArbitraryOutcome L.A Rush featured a impressive vehicle damage before Xbox 360 and PS3 gen.

[@IgKravenchenko]

Bro, you're all forgetting one game that pulled it off with these cars in a even worse level... The getaway, the game was literally about violence and gang wars, and you had all these licensed cars with soft body physics that could get mangled up, shot up and burned into a crisp. Not to metion other brands too, like having a shootout with the police and killing pedestrians in front of macdonalds, imagine trying to pull something like this nowdays...

[@RetroGamerr1991]

I'm currently in a patreon for Historic Sim Studios and to hear what this guy has to go through for the rights to what are essentially dead brands from the early 1900s is just insane. I can't imagine what it's like dealing with active car companies.

[@sarmatiancougar7556]

Nobody’s talking about the big elephant in the room, the fact that modern racing games largely rely on old cars. Normal non exotic sport cars are either not being made or are the same design over 15-20 years with small upgrades. And the new Supra only came to be because Toyota found a pre existing car they could put their body kit on No one made money on sport cars before Companies made them just to create an image The bean counting has really gone nuts We can be mad at devs for not remastering old racing titles but the real problem is that we need remasters of games about the early 2000’s in the first place Modern car culture is the real problem here, not video game developers

[@KasumiRINA]

I absolutely love 90s and early 2000s JDM cars and any racing game better be stacked with GTOs and Supras and Fairladies or bust.

[@newtownyard1317]

I always love when weird one off cars are in games, the one that comes to mind is Marussia in NFS Most Wanted 2012

[@p0werfu11]

Wasn't it also in Rivals?

[@p0werfu11]

But yeah, some of them can be quite peculiar. Holden Efigy in TDU, Melling Hellcat in Juiced 2, Ford GT90 in NFS2, etc

[@squirtledabestnoonebetter4816]

@@p0werfu11 I think we all know asphalt 9 is a hub of half popular cars and the other half are crazy one off cars

[@ct0560]

Oh I wish that marussia car appeared in more games

[@ryon5174]

@@p0werfu11I don’t ever remember it being in Rivals, but I do know that the one-off cars in Rivals include the Sesto Elemento and the Veneno, which I’m sure never appeared in any NFS game after it Add to that, the NFS Movie Mustang

[@MrSilnev]

The thing about NFS is that, Toyota isn't the first japanese brand to stop making appearances. Honda previously did not feature in NFS games from Most Wanted onwards. Except Prostreet and the Shift Games (track focused games). It wasn't until the 2015 game did Honda return to NFS in a street racing setting.

[@grihaspoormachine]

honda was in nfs:shift,no?

[@MrSilnev]

@@grihaspoormachine I tend to forget about Shift. But yes I think it was in the Shift games...doesn't detract from my point.

[@Bahraini_Carguy]

Honda was also notably absent from the European versions of both NFS Underground 2 & F&F Tokyo Drift game. Further more, Honda wasn't featured in Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3 unlike other Japanese brands. The funniest part is that Honda were totally okay with their cars being featured in The Getaway (2002), where an old Accord was used to literally transport & dump a Triad member's corpse onto the street.

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

Honda is a curious case. They didn't want their cars associated with police chases (NFS Most Wanted) nor expressway racing (Tokyo Xtreme Racer and Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune), possibly related to the Civic's infamy in real-life expressway racing during the early 90s. You still saw their cars in mountain pass racing games (Kaido Battle/Tokyo Xtreme Racer Drift & Initial D).

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

​@@Bahraini_CarguyFunnily enough, even though unlicensed Hondas appear in Tokyo Xtreme Racer Zero, their model codes were changed in the localized releases possibly to avoid legal trouble. Almost every other vehicle uses the car's real life model code as part of their name.

[@AshenOne777]

I wish Koenigsegg was in GT7 to have more competitive hypercars in the game and make the new events and championships with it, fight the Bugatti Chiron, La Ferrari, Aston Martin Valkyr and so on…why Polyphony?

[@SolaricAngel116]

It's because Koenigsegg is not into motorsport or racing as far as I have seen or it's with licensing issues with Koenigsegg as well or even if they reached them at all since GT is Japanese and Koenigsegg is Swedish.

[@AshenOne777]

@@SolaricAngel116 But they appeared in the GT Movie! That’s the thing. The Gamera was there and everything. I know they don’t have a history with racing, but Italidesign does? De Tomasso too? If that was the case then sure, but still, probably Kaz or Koenigsegg did not reach with each other

[@easytos]

The whole Toyota thing just makes me want to pull my hair out. You see these same types of issues with IP/Copyrights holders from other JP companies too, like Nintendo. It often feels like they live in some pre-internet world or something with the decisions they make, it's mind boggling.

[@carcrasher88YT]

Midnight Club 3's deal with Gemballa wasn't JUST a way to work around EA's Porsche deal, it was also to work around another exclusivity deal at the time...at least, as far as console games...and that was the lesser talked about exclusivity deal between Microsoft/Forza and Ferrari. There were a few Gemballa models MC3, not only a 996 Turbo and a Cayenne (the GT 750, exclusive to the REMIX version), but the REMIX version of the game also added a Ferrari F355 under the Gemballa brand.

[@Assassinkid23]

Forza must've saw this video because Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Abarth, and Lancia drops on August 17

[@mclarenbruh.]

Me watching this right as stellantis cars came back on forza horizon 5:

[@AdiMercury]

Same here LOL

[@1ybr]

One more thing to keep in mind with the EA Porsche deal is at the time (late 90s and early 00s) porsche was going through a rough time and the company nearly went bankrupt until VW stepped in and bought the company and formed some sort of new management and made the company more mainstream focused with new cars such as the cayenne and the boxter (which became their most selling cars for a while)

[@darkstar0000000000]

This is wrong. The Boxster was already being concepted at the beginning of the 90s and was unveiled at a 1993 motor show. The Boxster went into production for the 96 model year. The Cayenne also referred to internally as "Project Colorado" was a joint venture between Porsche and VW, were VW was brought in for economic scaling, something they have a good deal of experience in. That project was started in late 96 though it wasn't officially announced until 98. Even further still, in 1993 Ferdinand Porsche's grandson, Ferdinand Piech, became CEO of VW in 1993. He is credited with saving VW as he was the one to implement the economies of scale that Porsche was interested in for it Cayenne. And in fact, it's Piech's "uniform platform strategy" that saved VW from going bust in the 90s. The boxster is what is credited with saving Porsche in the 90s, and keeping them alive long enough to push the Cayenne out, which flushed them with cash in the early 00's. Even even further, from 2002 up until 2010 Porsche was purchasing large amounts of VW stock, initially buying a 10% share of VW. This continued, until Porsche owned over 50% of VW shares. A bunch of lawsuits occured, investors accused Porsche of shorting their stock causing a squeeze and the loss of $2 Billion. By 2011 Porsche had lost money due to litigation and planned to merge with VW. Then in 2012 Porsche officially merged with VW. But here's the crazy part, VW owns 50.1% of Porsche shares right? But thats Porsche AG, the car maker, not Porsche SE. In a funny turn of events, VW now owns the majority of Porsche AG, but the Porsche and Piech families, those guys I mentioned before? They own the majority shares of VW. So, VW bought out 50.1% of Porsche AG, but Porsche SE owns the controlling shares of VW AG. So they basically merged with themselves. Source: I worked for Porsche for 8 years and I can tell you from experience they want you to be very familiar with their history as they are very proud of it, but for good reason.

[@ShinyMew76]

Does VW still have any connections to Porsche?

[@darkstar0000000000]

@@ShinyMew76 Sure do. Multiple parts for the Cayenne/Macan will be stamped with VAG numbers, which means they're parts binning with VW. They both have separate engineering departments, and platforms like the 911 or Cayman/Boxster don't share much if anything across brands, but for the SUVs and electric components they will source parts from VW, mostly restricted to things like filters or axle shafts etc. Think of it similar to a Hyundai/Kia relationship.

[@rodimusmaximus3912]

@@ShinyMew76 VW owns Porsche, Audi, Ducati, and Lamborghini

[@ShinyMew76]

@@rodimusmaximus3912 VW owns Lamborghini?!

[@darthbob555]

Your channel is a true hidden gem! Found you through a GT7 critique video the other day and just finished binging the whole series. Perfect timing for a new upload in my sub box.

[@BiggestMichael]

As I'm watching this video, Forza announced that the Italian brands will be coming back as a dlc like what they did with Mitsubishi.

[@adlibbed2138]

And then there is deceased brands argument like Ascari, Carbon Motors and Marussia, which become a much more complicated dillema on it's own And I'm gonna shed some light to pointing out Peugeot of all companies, where the only way you can play with 9X8 and Onyx outside of mods for Assetto or older NFS's is to play Asphalt, or any racing games published by French companies to an lesser extent, which from how things we're currently going, is where Toyota is strangely enough, is taking notes from

[@recon1673]

Forza Horizon is probably are best chance to grab Carbon Motors and Marussia bit even then, it's chances are super low if anything. It was a big wonder they managed to grabbed the Ascari KZ1 (One of my favorite cars). I wish Peugot and Renault got more love in games.

[@adlibbed2138]

​@@recon1673considering the current state of geopolitics (y'know, Ukraine war and stuff) that's just totally unlikely in case of Marussia, but then again that company has long been liquidated so Marussia is pretty much a history in racing games

[@niko1600]

I question how Forza still has the rights to so many dead companies like Mosler and Ascari

[@ifanramadhana7833]

​@@niko1600Because they aren't exactly "dead". People still owns IP and brands even though they are no longer in business or making cars. Ascari still exists as a company that operates private circuit in Spain. Mosler has been bought by Rossion and while they don't have plan to produce Mosler again. They stated that they will support owners for parts and open to licensing.

[@ifanramadhana7833]

​@@recon1673As I stated above that Ascari still exists as a private race track in Spain. You can still license brands that technically dead. You just need to know who owns the right. For Carbon Motors and Marussia might be difficult since after their bankruptcy, it's not clear who owns the IP and branding for those two.

[@kitshiro2590]

To call out Toyota’s bluff: I fell in love with Toyota because of racing games, to the point where I now own a 90s Toyota-built car with a legendary V8 (which was sold to me by a friend at a Toyota dealer). So, cars in racing games do make car sales. And they make fans of the brand.

[@Skumtomten1]

One example is never evidence for a statement like that. While you are correct, you also have to look into the amount of people that don't buy cars due to video games giving them enough satisfaction to not wanting to buy the real car for 100 times the prices. Video games are actually the cause of declining sales for many companies, and he is right about that. Now, removing the brand from the games won't really sovle the problem though, but interest for cars have decreased for a long for now, they are mostly seen as transportation between A and B, nothing else these days. This combined with more people livng in the cities now, makes cars are less needed for transportation as well. The "joy" of driving is very rarely marketed these days, most people don't seem to care. They want space, safety and effiency, thats why we see so many boring cars these days.

[@varnix1006]

@@Skumtomten1 That and people these days are also trying to be (at least try to be seen as) more eco-friendly, and that means mass produced performance cars are going to be hit the hardest as they tend to be used for entertainment more than transportation. "If a slow ass city car with low emission can take me to places, why do I need fast car that's fuel hungry and maintenance heavy?". I'm guessing that the next boom of mass production low end sports car models will start when electric engine is finally adopted by the entire world.

[@The_D0C70R]

Toyota is full of crap lmao. Not only were they in previous NFS games and F&F, but they're also using Initial D (a manga/anime about street racing) to market the GR86 to this day.

[@mateuszpaszkiewicz3831]

Recalling this video, I was wondering why AMC (American Motors Corporation) is almost only Forza-exclusive, but I guess it is just obscurity of the brand, which was acquired by Chrysler in 1987.

[@mateuszpaszkiewicz3831]

To clarify, there is a non-exhaustive list of games where drivable AMC cars show up. - Car Town (Gremlin, Javelin, Pacer) //Cars were drivable in a drag race minigame and road trip events. - Car Town EX (Javelin) - Car Town Streets (Pacer) - CSR Classics (Hurst SC/Rambler, Rebel, Javelin, AMX/3, AMX Super Stock) - Driver: San Francisco (Pacer) - IHRA Drag Racing Series (AMX '69 [1,2], '70, [Sportsman Edition] - Motor City Online (AMX) - Nitro Nation Drag & Drift (Rebel) - Nitto 1320 Legends (Javelin) - No Limit Drag Racing 2 (Gremlin, Javelin) //Cars don't have names in that game. - Racing Rivals (Javelin, Pacer) - Reckless Getaway (AMX) - Smash up Derby (Javelin) - Wayne's World (Pacer)

[@Kristian-rd1rh]

the forza and Italy thing made my die of laughter. as of august 31st the current season or in game year is italy based adding alfa and the stratos

[@hardeepgill3839]

Hey i found your channel through your GT7 vids and im really glad your covering topics in the racing genre. Maybe in a future video you can talk about licensing running out leading to whole games getting delisted like PC 1,PC 2, Dirt 4, FM7 and more. Keep up the great content

[@b.1570]

Thats a REALLY good topic to talk about

[@susans5313]

funny how the 3 car brands for forza horizon in the thumbnail, are all coming in a month

[@Normalaatsra]

Here's some more licencing conundrums I've noticed in other examples. WMMT used Gemballa as the Porsche replacement in the past in Japan, but for some reason it wasn't present in international versions, which resulted in Blackbird, a plot relevant character to the story, to switch to driving a Z33. It was resolved when Ruf replaced Gemballa prior to opening of the Porsche licence. However they now have an issue with Toyota, where the Celsior, Aristo, and Soarer are removed in the North America versions of WMMT. In the past, the International versions would display a disclaimer when selecting them that the car name used is based on the Japanese market. It's interesting that cars that were never sold in NA were able to appear in the game and not cars that were sold under the Lexus brand in NA. The current theory is that Lexus didn't see how could the F10, JZS16, and Z30 models are appealing to be licenced in the game, and demanded instead they use their all new model year cars, which is not possible for the developers. Lastly this one doesn't really count, but Aston Martin is notoriously absent in most modded content in games due to legals placed on their car models to prevent AM cars to be listed for download, regardless of where the cars are sourced from and if the mod was made free to make no profit.

[@e2rqey]

I think at this point the ball is probably in Lotus's court. It's just another issue that's fallen through the cracks due to attention being elsewhere. Especially since they've developed new cars since then as well. It seems pretty dumb to choose getting no money, or placement in Gran Turismo instead of less money than you wanted and having your cars in Gran Turismo.

[@calebstuart1335]

One theory I've seen that I think holds some water is that Polyphony don't want to work with Chinese companies. This would explain why Volvo is also absent, and there is in-game evidence for this as Hong Kong and Taiwan both appear as in-game opponent nationalities while mainland China does not.

[@ImCeatra]

I want to have my own car company some time in the future. Looking at this video just makes me think that having your car in a video game is essentially free advertisment. I'd make it as easy and cheap (heck, if necessary even free) to have my car in a video game (especially something like GT, Forza and AC). Especially nowadays with online gaming, if you'd offer the games companies your license at a very friendly price (or even free) you could probably convince (or use that as a condition to aquire your license for X price instead of Y) them to have some online racing leagues with your brand from time to time, and even arrange some IRL stuff for the people who place the highest. The money I would get short term would obviously be minimal to none, but, like porsche described it, the long term loyalty that it would build up with the company would be much more valuable.

[@SolaricAngel116]

​​@@ImCeatraCount me in and I 100% agree with this. I would have my own fictional companies into Gran Turismo as well and to strengthen my long term loyalty with them.

[@willkofficialyoutube]

It was confirmed that FCA Italy brands will return in Series 24 in Forza Horizon 5!

[@AntoniusTyas]

Regarding Lotus/GT situations, my take is that it's all on Jean-Marc Gales. He basically ran the company down the drain, releasing super expensive limited editions and reducing quality at the same time, as well as giving out shitty customer service. I would not be surprised if Lotus asked extortionate licensing money just to keep the company afloat back then. Also, again, this makes me kind of happy as Assetto Corsa player since we can rely on mods. ALSO ALSO, fun fact: Back during GT2 days, RUF made cars from Porsche chassis. These days, they also made Porsche-like cars but using their own carbon fibre chassis, powered with engines supplied by Porsche. I want to see them back in mainstream games.

[@DJEevee257]

So essentially they're making their own vehicles now

[@AntoniusTyas]

@@DJEevee257 yes. The engine is based from Mezger flat 6 design but RUF built their own bits.

[@xnotasweatx]

Glickenhaus was approached by Gran Turismo as well, but according to Jim himself they don’t pay fairly towards smaller car companies to have them in game

[@Erowens98]

Im sure its a very complicated argument. Especially for small brands. You could easily argue the games bring them more publicity than the other way around. There are many small brands i would never have heard of if i hadn't seen them in a racing game. Gran Turismo is a much bigger name than Gumpert, for example.

[@xnotasweatx]

@@Erowens98 it is a bit confusing, because any amount of money/publicity for SGC could help them a lot in the future with their LMH efforts, and possibly bring them back to GT3 at the same time. Idk, maybe Jim is just old

[@ArbitraryOutcome]

That's actually peculiar since GT is no stranger to featuring more obscure manufacturers like Vector, Venturi, Gillet, and Spirra Motors/Oullim, who I think most people probably would have never even known of their existence had they not appeared in GT.

[@xnotasweatx]

@@ArbitraryOutcome the thing is with companies like those, even vector and Venturi is that they never were even close to being established as car builders, SGC on the other hand is actually committed to their cause so maybe they want actual compensation and not the relatively small amount of money those pseudo car companies want

[@lankyman5313]

This video is such high quality, keep churning out content like this my man 🙌🏼

[@Mikauo_Xblade]

geez you make these video fast and always with great quality, very good!

[@manostororosso2364]

How do you make so many interesting videos at such a short time!! Great job

[@tomanderson6335]

Really well done and informative video. It's probably worth pointing out that Volvo is also owned by Geely, a fact that may have something to do with it joining Lotus on the GTS and GT7 notable absences list after having had vehicles in GT4, 5 and 6.

[@Lionfish5656]

Lotus is also owned by Geely.

[@trico8025]

Great content👍. Also good to hear the metropolis theme song from Ratchet & Clank :)

[@LUQIMAAN216]

A very informative and well edited video, keep up the good work 👍🏾

[@miguel.5787]

this is an absolutely great video, i really hope your channel keeps growing and that you get rewarded for your very notable effort. on another note; i think you missed something that could have really contributed to the 16 year porsche exclusivity deal with EA. there is another racing game that came out during that period and had porsche in it; Race Driver GRID. im not exactly sure how they managed it, since it is not a DLC either, but they added the porsche 911 GT3 RSR (996),and the only limitation was that you couldn't directly buy it, and the only way to drive it was using the "team offers" feature. but in some races (most notably the 24 hours of le mans) the AI can be seen driving it. the car obviously wasn't a leftover from an alpha version or anything like that; the car has good sound quality, handles like it should, has an interior view and even has a really good damage model.

[@element7448]

So funny, now that they added all these 3 brands to Forza

[@Ricky911_]

Nice to see a fellow Ratchet and Clank fan. I noticed your Slim Cognito pfp and I had to comment on it

[@jyynarpalisenniemi6242]

Your videos are really high quality, keep it up 🤟

[@JustGenius2001]

My question is why Koenigsegg isn't in GT7 or in the previous GT games? I'm surprised that no one (besides me) is noticing that Koenigsegg still hasn't shown up in a GT game, yet.

[@Mr_Man308]

Im almost sure playground games and EA beat polyphony to the deal. Almost every koenigsegg is in FH5 minus the ccx for sure

[@JustGenius2001]

@@Mr_Man308 Okay, what about Hennessy?

[@Mr_Man308]

@@JustGenius2001 i thing pg beat everyone to them as well, granted FH5 recently recieved the venom F5. Plus i heard polyphony, being a japanese based company, is extremely xenophobic and wants more japanese manufacturers in a japanese game. But i believe thats just hear-say

[@JustGenius2001]

@@Mr_Man308 It's ridiculous if Polyphony wants more Japanese car manufacturers instead of having more car manufacturers from different parts of the world.

[@Twiggo_The_Foxxo]

​@@JustGenius2001 and deberti

[@AD2009]

In Forza Horizon, all the car brands you mentioned will be available mid August.

[@csabazombori9862]

It aged very well the lancia abart alfa romeo comes in next update in forza 5

[@jano_142]

At the time of this comment, Forza has recently added Fiat, Lancia, and Alfa Romeo back into the game. Unfortunately, they are festival playlist rewards. There is only two weeks left on the playlist so go get them while you still can

[@watermelonhelmet6854]

It's simpler than you think. Most of the time it's either just money: the car manufacturer wants too much for the license, or demands the same amount that other bigger, more popular car brands are getting... or unrealistic terms for using the license. I worked as a tester back in the 90's, and while this isn't 'direct' confirmation (More I heard from a guy I was working with, who heard from a guy he worked with), he said that pretty often, car manufacturers would want stupid money for the license and would have demands like their cars could never damaged, could never lose control or crash, never actually lose a race, etc. Fair enough the 90's was a different time, but if you have 8 different brands in game and each wants a couple million for the license, that could be most of your sales, so you might be willing to spend that for a Ferrari license, but not a less popular brand.... and car manufacturers weren't too keen on having their cars put in games where they're shown to be inferior to their competitors' cars. It's stupid, but understandable. If you're a 14 year old kid and games are the only way you can experience driving, if the BMW has way better stats and is way faster than the Toyota....you don't put a Toyota poster on your wall and grow up wanting to buy one.

[@ConnorTubeYT]

Forza FINALLY has got the rights to abarth, alfa, lancia and fiat back, their coming next update

[@ZadeWolve]

Welp next month Forza horizion 5 gets the Italian brands back lol

[@Erelyes]

Gosh that NFS2 main menu music takes me back! Great choice of track for the EA segment. Even then they were doing 'DLC' of sorts with the Special Editions of the NFS titles.

[@simeonyves5940]

NFS 2 SE! One of *the* Games of my Childhood, along with Planet Of Death and Screamer 2! Thanks for the Nostalgia Rush Man :)

[@akaakula2142]

well next month, all those forza brands that are missing are coming back soo

[@kamilchrusciak8170]

I love the Ratchet and Clank music you included in video ❤

[@ryzet07]

i would LOVE a part 2 to this please make one

[@danericardo6148]

25:28 There were a number of other non-EA racing games between 2000 and 2016 that had Porsche cars: Project Gotham Racing 1+2, Test Drive Le Mans, GTR 1+2, GT Legends and Race Driver: GRID

[@RazgrizWing]

It looks like FCA Italy cars will soon be in FH5 next month

[@figotehaceunroto]

love the video, it was really interesting, you deserve more suscribers!

[@Killer-Of-Night]

Something to note at 25:02, Gemballa was also used by Codemasters for ToCA Race Driver 3 as well to get around the Porsche license deal. They also used Koenig for their C62, a road legal Version of the Porsche 962 for ToCA 1 & 2. (As well as some other cars for Toca 2 &3).

[@salamandora66]

I feel bad for RUF. After Porsche became a strong independent car manufacturer all games just tost her aside for Porsche 😢 I MISS YOU RUF

[@cheburekmaykr5758]

And we finally we have Lancia, Abarth, Fiat and Alfa Romeo back in Forza Horizon

[@Brutalcel]

your videos are so incredibly informative

[@M1tZk1]

I remember GT and Toyota were even trying to get some feedback on the Yaris GR when it came out in the game. Like a real feedback questionnaire on what you thought of the car. That was really odd but was interesting bc it suggested that the car in the game would be portrayed so accurately and close to the real thing that the feedback of the car ingame would somehow affect the car in the real world.

[@Sebastian-Quintero]

Holy sh*t someone finally gets it. Timing really is everything. A company being bought out half way through game development often does create issues with license deals. And its all money.

[@vincentpignato3449]

gotta say, absolutely fantastic video. one of the most frustrating things with the discourse surrounding this issue is that everyone immediately has their own preconceived notion as to why their favorite cars aren't in a game and then go on to preach their version of events that are based purely on speculation without any acknowledgment that theyre right or wrong. i like that you made this very unbiased and offered no real definitive answers about a lot of these things bc truthfully we dont actually know the answers to a lot of this shit. i do think your theory about toyotas brand image issue makes a lot of sense. they stopped actively participating in a lot of games around the time of the gt86 coming to america and replacing the scion frs, and before the release of the new supra. from a marketing standpoint for toyota, it makes sense that as they transition to these new sports cars in their lineup they would be extremely stingy about licensing cars that had their heyday in the 90s and early 2000s out, because at the end of the day, they want to focus on what theyre selling now, and these partnerships are about making money above all.

[@Twiggo_The_Foxxo]

Well they just announced that lancia, abarth, fiat, and Alfa Romeo are gonna be added to Forza

[@steakyboy9471]

The 4 Italian brands are coming to fh5

[@bigchief8493]

In elementary school, my gym teacher once asked my class (again, elementary school-age students: none older than 10) if we’d rather be racist or sexist. He was a wearing a Gran Turismo shirt at the time. Anyways, great video as always! You’re one of my favorite creators on this site and I always look forward to your next upload!

[@Bahraini_Carguy]

25:07 correction: It also appeared in Project Gotham Racing Series (another Microsoft IP) & even Grid 2008!

[@whocares4267]

I love the fact that you use Slim Cognito as your profile pic and ratchet and clank soundtracks. A fellow fan.

[@o00nemesis00o]

One Z in an Italian word makes a 'zzzzz', two Zs together make a 'tzzz'. Piatza and peetza, but not fortza.

[@TheRageLivesOn]

off topic, but that Ratchet and Clank music is so good. i replay the PS2 ones from time to time because they're just so fun to blast through

[@kasperinthanai6372]

Regarding Porsche, there was one GT3 racecar featured in Race Driver Grid as part of a dlc

[@ifanramadhana7833]

You can drive 911 GT3 without DLC in Grid but only as a rental cars.

[@kasperinthanai6372]

Yea, but the dlc that had the Porsche allowed you to use it in all quick races, like the Mazda Furai, Honda Civic TC, Cerbara Speed 12 and such

[@_n-Dee_]

everything ON POINT! Well done sir

[@etcarief]

Thank you for a wonderful , profound and informative video you've posted

[@victormena1501]

Porsche are my favorite cars ever,🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪,we need Abarth,Alfa Romeo,Fiat and Lancia to FH5,we need lotus to GT7 and Toyota to NFS Unbound

[@michaellacy3699]

NFS Porshe Unleashed was also a marketing play to push the Boxter, which was brand new at the time

[@TesteuroSS]

That is nowhere to be true as when the game got released (1999-2000), the car was available for 3-4 years. There was another game though that only had Boxsters.

[@michaellacy3699]

@@TesteuroSS ah, that might be the one I'm thinking of

[@TesteuroSS]

​@@michaellacy3699Yep, seems to be as the game (Porsche Challenge) got released around the same time as 986 Boxster with 2.5.

[@Victor_2000s]

@@TesteuroSS Porsche Challenge was relased in 1997, 3 years before Porsche Unleashed.

[@victormena1501]

The Italian Manufacturers are finally in FH5

[@ams_mace3084]

Nenkai, the most dataminer who people believes more, confirmed the leftovers of the lotus (and another cars) on the game, reviewing the car list still cant see the lotus brand

[@kaijukandy3333]

Somewhat related, the four Stellantis Italian brands were also NOT included in the closed beta of The Crew Motorfest

[@unbearifiedbear1885]

Thanks for the Ridge Racer Type 4 OST in the background. Best original soundtrack in any racing game *bar none*

[@diecastreviewracing]

People don’t get what licensing is. Some people are just stupid to not understand how hard it is to get their favourite cars in the game, and either way be toxic in the worst way possible. Good vid!

[@andreroberson6554]

Fr like if the car company says no then NO MEANS NO

[@mahiru20ten]

Some car companies also seem to don't understand the benefits of them licensing their cars to appear in games. At least they need to be transparent on why their cars can't appear on certain games.

[@jackraptor695]

Companies hates fun, that's why. Money is the only priority

[@xexecuterxx]

car licensing is actually not 100% necessary, look up what EA did with gun manufacturers. The only reason the big names keep licensing cars is to prevent a lawsuit where they'd get the right to not have to license models, which would cheapen the competitions expenses and allow indies into the market

[@spectr__]

Here is a follow up idea for this video, I am really curious how much you can resemble a car without breaking any ip. It's interesting that indies like Art of Rally or Horizon Chase copy real models with different naming, double-A games go with completely original ones while triple-A almost always use real ones.

[@Victor_2000s]

Change the vehicle design and put a new name is the answer, for exemple the Infernus from GTA 4 and 5 which is a mix of Lamborghini Diablo with Pagani Zonda, that makes the vehicle design looks very different to real one and avoid the company to go at judicial questions.

[@Kipkaboom]

Genki didn't get official licensing for their cars until Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3, so they did the clever thing of naming the cars by their chassis code.

[@bitelaserkhalif]

​@@Victor_2000sthis is how beamng operate Picolina is combination of vw beetle and fiat 600 200bx is inspired from s13 Covet is inspired by Civic

[@qwerty975]

Car X Drift Racing, the most popular drift game, literally uses any car they want, from Supra and on, but without the brand names

[@johng3292]

8:20 True, Need For Speed made me love BMW M as a kid, and I bought one when I was old enough to drive one.

[@notthedeadweight]

Meanwhile The Crew Motorfest having almost all car brands existing and to exist (except Tesla, everyone hates Tesla): 🗿

[@cr0ss414]

I think in the case of Toyota still not appearing in NFS, it's more of a "we don't want our cars in police chase scenarios" rather than a brand view angle, seeing that their cars have been making a return in street racing games like Forza Horizon and The Crew Motorfest. So their more recent angle on their cars in games must be "We'll permit our cars in street racing scenarios as long as it's without cops and/or the racing is a sanctioned event". I believe this is the case because why would NFS be the only outlier out of the recent handful of street racing games with Toyota cars. As for Audi, and you could possibly extend this to Toyota rejoining NFS, I believe they dug their heels in with asking for a licensing cost well beyond the comfort EA is willing to deal and negotiate with and gave up. Given how much they've downsized NFS development and really as a whole over this past decade, if it came out to be that I wouldn't be surprised.

[@adlibbed2138]

Fast and Furious Crossroads oh the irony... but whatever, even I can at least comprehend someone of that Steven Seagal instead of these clueless Toyota execs thinking to giving away their license to a game that's also has cop chases like NFS and being Ride To Hell Retribution of racing games certainly a great fucking idea

[@alexjackyperson101]

I think the problem is EA themselves, Toyota see and heard to many bad moves from them and decided to leave them because Toyota don't want people talk bad about them (idk how but it's the internet anything is possible)

[@marmedalmond9958]

Toyota not In street racing games is quite ironic when every single terrorist group uses toyotas in warfare. Even there is a war named after toyotas