Why Your Novel's Structure Still Isn't Working

[@Badepfropfen]

You saved me. I think I'm an intermediate writer (I finished and self-published a novel trilogy). I was fairly confident in my writing ability up until a year ago, when I hit a brick wall with the outline for my 4th and way more ambitious book. After watching this video, I shoved all my subplots and timelines aside, focused on my main plot and, for the first time, saw the giant missing midpoint. Thank you so much! All the best from Germany =)

[@EllenBrock]

That's awesome! I'm so glad you figured it out!

[@daisyhinojosa23]

Wow !! I haven’t been recommended a video of yours in ages !!

[@EllenBrock]

Welcome back! Hope you enjoy the new content!

[@diango73]

same for me. Almost feels nostalgic.

[@KJKP]

Same.

[@KJKP]

I have the same experience. Haven’t seen them offered.

[@Mostirrelevant]

Neither have I seen it, however, I just know I have to check her channel knowing I will be amazed with great content and videos, as usual.

[@skypirateb]

I think what I really appreciate about your videos is that they often articulate ideas about structure and flow that I've kiiiiiind of intuited, sort of, but haven't really been able to put into words at all myself. It helps because it validates my instincts but also tells me exactly what the problem might be and ways I can fix it. I'm completely self-taught when it comes to long fiction and the trial and error of it is exhausting. It's really great that even a 20 minute video like this can make me feel really clear-eyed and motivated about my own projects!

[@rollierollout]

I love how in-depth your videos are! Thank you so much! ❤

[@LillyPip]

Awesome video. I’ve been struggling to sort out why my novel lost momentum, and this was exactly what I needed. Thank you so much!

[@tubbiestbeef4222]

New Ellen video! Wooooo 🎉

[@susanbibeault]

I am writing screenplays, not novels, but so much of your content is informative for both. Loved your explanation of the debate. I always struggle with that transition. Thanks

[@grimscriven]

TheGoDraft here on KZbin with Andy Guerdat has amazing videos on screenwriting if you haven't discovered him already.

[@susanbibeault]

@@grimscriven Yes, I watch that religiously. Writing for Screens with Glen Gers is great also for anyone learning screenwriting.

[@annahcreates]

Every video you make seems to be the perfect topic for what I'm working on! Thanks for giving such amazing advice!

[@Thessalin]

Love this. I'm stuck again and you just pushed me into: Oooohhhh that's what's wrong with my middle. I stink at middles. Listening to this rule driving to the gym was so helpful.

[@asharablack]

This was so helpful! I think I've heard you mention all of these points before, in previous videos, but hearing that stuff again and in a condensed version made a couple of things clear to me. When I first learnt about the "debate" between the first and second quarter, I felt somewhat confused, because I could identify a turning point between my first and second quarter, and intuitively I could feel that it was working, but it didn't quite match your description of a debate. This is because the disruption of the status quo, and the corresponding "gut punch" you mention, both happen at the very start of my story, or even before that, really, they happened off screen and you learn about them on the first page. And I was wondering whether I was doing something wrong, even though my intuition was telling me that my pacing was working. Upon watching this video, and listening to your examples, I suddenly realised the huge difference between the traditional stories you describe and my own story: I'm writing a fanfiction. I presuppose that my readers already know and have feelings about the characters. Toy Story needs a setup, needs to describe the status quo, because otherwise we won't feel anything as viewers when we learn that Woody is being replaced. As a fanfiction writer, I can start the story right at the point where Ron and Hermione have had a break-up, and it can have an impact because my readers won't need set-up to understand what's going on and what's at stake. I still have a turning point at which the story picks up steam (actually, it's more like two turning points), but the emotional journey around this turning point is different than it would normally be. This isn't the first time I've thought about how fanfiction allows us to tell stories that simply wouldn't work in original fiction. But this is the first time I realised that my own story also applies some of the weird pacing rules that only work in fanfiction.

[@tearstoneactual9773]

Well, the thing about that, is that original fiction has already done the heavy lifting.

[@asharablack]

@@tearstoneactual9773 You can call it heavy lifting, sure. But every artist stands on the shoulders of those that came before them. You could say that fantasy authors today only sell books because Tolkien did the heavy lifting for them... or you could appreciate that derivative art can be good and even original itself. And don't get me wrong, most fanfiction is shit. But so are most original novels, they just never see the light of day thanks to publishers.

[@angelmochi9630]

​@@tearstoneactual9773so true. John Milton was such a hack too

[@Casie5643]

I'm so happy to see your videos popping up in my feed 💖 Looking forward to watch the new ones!

[@rilohoneu6030]

This is fantastic, its harder to find good videos about the part of writing beyond the basics. This not only served to teach about structure, but this helped contextualize and reallt flesh out my understanding of these terms. Thank you socmuch for this.

[@LittleDergon]

This video helped me realise that I had smoothed the transitions between quarters too much and needed to add the strong emotional change back in. Also, I was spending way too long on the first quarter and needed to move it along. Thanks, great video ☺👍

[@snovid3306]

Thank you for all the uploads. I guess the best part about your earliest ones was mentioning typical difficulties writers face. If there was a way to talk about them without jeopardising the trust they put in you (tweaking their stories) I think I'd find that more interesting than examples from movies

[@EllenBrock]

I'm working on an editing/outlining demonstration video based on a real writer's novel outline. That will hopefully be out in a couple months.

[@hollier8744]

​@@EllenBrockFor me personally, I prefer the movie plot examples because (for more popular titles) it is more likely that your audience would have seen a given movie than will have read a select book.

[@morgantraynor2444]

Thank you for this! I often struggle with the mush and then don’t know where I went wrong, so this was very helpful.

[@joshua376]

This was a great video. It had about 3 or 4 main points which all were explained clearly with insightful information. Every minute was helpful because it was only 20 minutes.

[@sapphiremaiden2356]

I love every single one of your videos, your insights are just the absolute best. Thank you so much for putting so much effort into them!

[@Vincythegod]

Thanks for the all the great content. I cannot wait for the videos revisiting scene structure! Especially on how to properly outline a scene using the theory from scene structure. Cheers!

[@TringaNebulosa]

Wooo! I love these deep explanations of such nitty-gritty issues, both for structure and prose. Fantastic news on those next videos as well!

[@ChangesOfTomorrow]

Thank you! I'm taking notes, because I'm trying to edit my latest work. I just realized I haven't written a proper lowest point for my main character

[@sarahalbert6833]

Hi Ellen, thanks for another useful video. I have missed you so 😁 great to see you're back! 🎉

[@havvaalexander9520]

This was excellent. Thank you!

[@4videovideo]

The way you explained the midpoint finally made something clear to me about the way that works in a lot of stories I've read. Very helpful, thank you.

[@livechangechallenge]

Thank you for this video, it was incredibly useful! I’m on the first draft of my first book, just on the transition from first quarter to 2nd. Having this clarity will help me fix my outline before it becomes too much of a problem in the writing 😊

[@5idi]

Thank you, it gave me insight about a character arc I was not happy with. Yeah, if the shift isn't clear, then it kind of makes the whole process monotonous and it loses purpose.

[@Lucas-s5l7l]

Tysm for organizing your video contents into playlist, its been very helpful.

[@annika8021]

video idea: quick list of other KZbinrs/authors/etc that you use as resources! These vids are great but I blew through most of the account in the past few days… would love to find more helpful writing/publishing guides

[@thetravelingbibliophile]

This was SO helpful! Thank you Ellen!

[@xelacremant7396]

This was awesome, exactly what I needed

[@vicentevalenzuela4624]

It's always a happy day when Ellen uploads :)

[@ChessieInWonderland]

These videos always massively help me! Thank you! I’d love it if you could do a video solely on pacing ☺️

[@Jbwriting]

I've been following you with my other account for ages and am so glad to have your videos in my life as a writing resource. Your knowledge and experience have been so valuable in my writing journey. Thank you!!

[@jaredmcdaris7370]

Thanks, I think this might be very helpful. I have a protagonist that I’m not sure sufficiently changes their behavior after the midpoint. That’s something I hadn’t considered before.

[@kokoro_flow]

Ty for this video. It’s really helpful! ❤

[@samhawkins4952]

I‘d be super dooper interested in a video about the beats of new friendships or relationships forming in relation to the plot. Have you ever considered making one like that? Love all of your videos, you’re the best! :)

[@hunched_monk3279]

You’re my favourite KZbinr!

[@Kitsambler]

Very helpful with several issues - thanks!

[@1monki]

Combining the idea of sequences and set pieces taken from screenwriting helps with this issue. The narrative is broken into eight set pieces (two per each act of four acts). And a film, a set piece is where the Director spins their money. In a movie, these are often spectacles but can also be emotional. They are also the most memorable parts of the narrative where something big happens. In a novel, they correspond to an inciting incident, pinch points, and the end of acts. While we're not necessarily spending money, it's worth paying extra attention to these parts of the narrative structure.

[@rachelthompson9324]

I read in one of James Scott Bell's books on writing that the mid point should be a mirror moment whereby the protag looks deep within and sees an error in their thinking and/or actions and resolves to launch in a new direction and begins to fight the problem in a new way. The MC actively changes direction due to a self revelation.

[@jackhammer4499]

Just be careful you don't entirely resolve their character arc too early, or else your main character's development is finished when you have half your story left. Ellen's video on the third quarter of a story went into it great, but to try to sum it up, I think of it as the character treating a symptom of their flaw, because they aren't truly aware of their flaw yet. This gives them an idea of what acting in a new way is like, and slowly but surely proves to them that their deeper beliefs are wrong.

[@andreamack102]

This was so helpful! I am exactly that person who has most of the structure but somehow it’s still not working. Thank you so much!

[@Oddy37]

I missed your videos! Looking forward to new content :) I imagine the type of content you do is very time-consuming. Have you considered making some videos that are more on the "chill" side? Like a "What's on my reading list" or "Books I've read this month" type of video

[@libbyhyett6625]

Yay an Ellen Brock drop

[@szopowypracz]

great value on your channel, thanks for sharing this for free

[@raffalaratom]

Yayy a new video 😍

[@cosmicprison9819]

Thanks a lot, Ellen! I just wanted to confirm to you that you were on to something with your suspicion. While this video won’t flat-out “solve” the issues for a lot of people - you can’t do the work of actually rewriting the structure for them, after all - it’s given me a few more things to think about, how I might just have to rewrite some comparatively minor moments of the story within existing scenes (such as the debate) to make the rest make a lot more sense. And these are precisely the small nudges an author needs, when they’ve been so close to their story for such a long time that they can’t see how these minor changes will affect the entire rest of the story. Just to name one prominent example that a lot of people are unaware of: I’ve heard that in the first version of Star Wars: A New Hope, the rebels attacked the Death Star unprovoked 😳 - not in defense of their own base on Yavin. Luckily, a friend of George Lucas’s caught this in time and pointed it out to him, so they only had to do a few reshoots / extra cuts (“fire when ready”) to recontextualise the scene into a defensive action on the rebels’ part. And thus, the worse version of the movie was never released in this form.

[@5BBassist4Christ]

"Either you will go through this door or you will not go through. If you go through there is always the risk of remembering your name. Things look at you doubly and you must look back and let them happen. If you do not go through it is possible to live worthily To maintain your attitudes to hold your position to die bravely. But much will blind you, much will evade you, at what cost who knows? The door itself makes no promises. It is only a door. Poem: Prospective Immigrants Please Note -Adrienne Rich. This is not a particularly well worded poem (in my opinion), but its meaning is very profound and has resonated with me. It well captures the "Debate", and what you were talking about with "The Door". If you go through the door, you will get a lot of attention, -some positive, but much negative. Things will happen. For better or worse, we don't know. If you do not go through the door, life will pass you by. The end of the poem: "The Door itself makes no promises, it is only a door" really resonates with me.

[@inamelzvoice]

That's crazy, I was writing the debate scene of my novel as you mentioned it xD I have no idea how it will be received, because I like streatching structure "rules" and play with them for a little twist. So hey people in the comments, if you wanna give your opinion while boosting this great video in the algorithm with your interaction, go for it! So first my status quo is the opposite of the "everything is fine" because we start in the middle of a conflict between two different ethnies : A have invaded the lands of B and push them out, so B are rading A borders for the past centuries until they get their territory back. The disruption of the status quo is that A is about to fall into a civil war, and there's rumor of a coup that's coming. The main character is the head of B and receive a promise from the one organizing the coup. If B help him, he will give them their territory back by giving them citizenship in the empire. So the debate is not the classic "oh I hesitate because I'm scare of the call of adventure" but "do I join the ones who were once my ennemies to join an empire with better technology so my kid have a healthier future, or do I take the lands back by force while they attack each others to respect my culture?" The theme of that story being the sacrifice you make for your children, you can guess how the chapter (and the debate scene) end ;) So, what do y'all think? Is it twisting too much the structure and making the story unbelievable? Or is it a pretty tame twist and nothing to worry about?

[@MargotLemaire]

Brilliant video, thanks a lot.

[@petermartinez5507]

Feel like your point on the midpoint is that you shouldn't be able to see the change but you should be able to feel it.

[@writewithme-24]

This is great, thank you!

[@bloopbloopbloopbloopbloop]

You are a gem Ellen! Do you think these ideas could also work during structural edits of short stories?

[@EllenBrock]

Short stories are not my area of expertise. I imagine it would depend on the length of the short story. From my casual observation, it seems that short stories often have an inciting incident/disruption, debate, decision, and then end on a twist/conclusion (what would be the first plot point in a longer work). But don't take my word for it. I've never studied short stories, and I only really consume horror short stories/anthologies and that might be a bit different.

[@bloopbloopbloopbloopbloop]

@@EllenBrock thank you, that's quite helpful!

[@ericericson4]

It's interesting. I find that trying to plot things out beforehand is worthless. I end up going with the feel and throwing away the pre-planned plot. However, using something like this, as a template in the editing, may give me a view into any structural problems. It becomes difficult as the plot twists and the 'good guys' are revealed as the villains and the hero is the one who needs to be rescued. Different characters have their own goals, and their stories may or may not be progressing at the same rate as the main plot. As long as it pushes the main story forward it's all good.

[@vanessafowler9923]

super helpful! thank you!!

[@elementeight8]

Thank you! 💚🌱💚

[@EllenBrock]

Thank you so much for your support!

[@Mostirrelevant]

Great watching your new video

[@hugol9927]

I really appreciated the advice you're giving here, I think you're making great points. I would love to hear from you on how to make sure that the low point the character has to hit doesn't feel "artificial", if that makes sense. I'm asking because I've noticed that in a lot of stories the low point feels like it's there purely for structural reasons---it's a bit too obvious and sort of feels like emotional manipulation of the readers/audience (especially in a movie, when they hit you with the sad soundtrack lol). So I was wondering if you had some insights to share on how not to overplay this when writing a story. Thanks for the video!

[@EllenBrock]

I know what you mean. I think setting it up in advance helps a lot. For example, having the character overlook something or do something bad earlier in the story (due to their need to have a character arc) can come back to bite them later on. I talked about this more in the third quarter video. Also, avoiding the standard triggers for the lowest point (for example, walking in on the romantic interest seemingly cheating). These two issues can help solve each other. Shooting for something personal (rooted in the character's need to grow) is likely going to help make the low point trigger (I call this moment "things get even worse" in my structural videos) a lot more unique.

[@jenils_]

thank you so much!!!!!!

[@ihaveaname699]

aw yea boys that time again

[@TimeTravelReads]

Hmm. I'm a beginning writer. I'm just beginning to think about a story. So far, I don't know what negative beliefs the characters have. The disruption isn't upsetting. The decision isn't difficult. Does the disruption absolutely have to be devastating? My story involves two characters in different centuries becoming pen pals. The disruption is one person writing to the other person asking to be pen pals. They're both adults. It doesn't seem like this opportunity needs to be super disruptive. Could it be that the letter writing isn't the disruption, but something one pen pal reveals to the other?

[@cosmicprison9819]

My protagonist hits the wall multiple times - 2-3 very different walls - I hope that won’t be *too* much for the readers.

[@xorlacanj8051]

Hi I wondering if creative writing is dead? I’ve been doing this for ages. I’ve hired tutors to help me improve my craft. I’ve put in countless hours working on projects. All I’ve ever received is rejection after rejection. I’ve been told by editors I’m a good writer but…it’s always a no. So is creative writing just dead? Is it worth it to continue? I’m sure you’ll never see this but if by chance you do… what do you think? Am I wasting my time?

[@AuthorGuy1]

I don't think I've ever studied story structure. I invernt my own as I need them.

[@dreistadt]

Tha patreon podcast is actually worth it. If you can afford it, I highly recommend subscribing. ❤

[@pattykim5422]

What if life isn't going so well before the debate and then when this door opens, it's an easy decision? Is that not really a debate then? Ie. finding a genie bottle and it seems like a good idea, but little do you know, the genie will ask for something really bad?

[@shahzadkhosravi195]

Would you be able to help me with my college essay?

[@Maudsunday]

i love you and you look beautiful!

[@Poisonedblade]

When in doubt, watch Shrek.

[@da.j.9096]

Hi Ellen, I was wondering if you plan to re-open your freelance editing services again? I have a middle grade novel I wrote and would love your feedback. But I understand if you are pursuing different things now :)

[@blzako]

Are you going to update the scene structure videos?

[@EllenBrock]

Yes, but it will probably take me a few months to get to them.

[@wiggleworm5423]

This is why I use Abbie Emmon's three act story structure. :)

[@donkeyhota.dontflamingo9294]

But Ellen, there's something I still don't get. Why all this excessive concern with plot structure and scene anatomy and twist formulas and all these cookie-cutter genre cliches when all classic master pieces of world literature don't follow these rules? Last year I read the master and margarita, don quixote, ana karenina, 100 years of solitude, divine comedy and war and piece and I didn't see much of any of those tips you always talk about on your channel. And those novels I've just mentioned are evergreen and people keep reading them no matter how many decades or centuries have passed. And if you take a look at the nobel prize winners list, you'll find that virtually all winners are way more similar to the classics than to the page-turner writers that write for commercial purposes that abide by those writing rules you always talk about. Why is that? I really don't get it. Why the vast majority of the literature market seems so oblivious to this fact and keep writing cookie-cutter genre novels that nobody will remember in 10 years instead of writing true literary fiction like the great classics that people keep reading for centuries?

[@hunched_monk3279]

In Australia our annual literary award, the Miles Franklin, was just awarded to Praiseworthy by Alexis Wright, which is very much like an epic/classic. The longlist too was very experimental. So commentators have said that they are trying to encourage more inventive writing. I would love Ellen to address this. I think structure helps bad writing become good, but great writing transcends it. Would love to hear more about this contradiction.

[@leilaj2397]

My take on story structure has always been that it is a way to categorize reader expectations. If you are going to do something to subvert reader expectations they are most likely going to get upset, it is only when you have something really creative and engaging that can take its place. So this video is less saying "a story must do this" and more saying "if all of your readers are upset, you have failed to account for the fact they expect this. You need to either add what they expect or do a better job of making an alternative." Additionally, a lot of the examples we think of as famous classics do not follow modern story structure, but they are archetypical of their time. The four quarters structure is a modern understanding of storytelling that explains what modern readers expect. Many particularly old classics like the ones you listed will not follow it, but they still follow the expectations and genre conventions of the readers of the time. Divine Comedy is a pretty standard epic poem by structure, it is famous for how it applies that structure. I really don't think it isn't fair to say that every story that uses the four quarter structure is going to be "cookie cutter genre fiction." It is entirely possible to tell a really unique, convention defying, genre defining story, that still has things like a debate in the first quarter or a midpoint twist. Those are terms that describe the general flow of the plot but can be applied or interpreted in a variety of ways. A lot of stories that we consider modern classics use a similar structure.

[@lanab.820]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that most people write for commercial purposes, not to become classics of world literature. In her last video, Ellen mentioned that different people write for different reasons, but she focuses on the story structure for commercial fiction. If someone wants to write their own story without the structure behind it, they don't need her videos. They don't need any videos, for that matter, only a notebook and a pen. As someone working on their novel, I find her videos much more helpful than any discussions of classical literature because I want my books to be read now, not in a hundred years. I don't aim for a Nobel prize, or the list of classics, or even the top of books of this decade. I just want to share my story with other people, and the structure helps with it. Of course, it's my own choice, but from the comments under Ellen's videos and questions in her podcasts, I see that most people here are for similar reasons. On a final note, I just checked the list of the Nobel prize winners in literature in the 21st century, and call me ignorant, but I don't recognize a single title. The award may sound very meaningful, but I don't think that in a hundred years, people will remember those books over, for example, Harry Potter.

[@donkeyhota.dontflamingo9294]

@@lanab.820 you certainly have a point in the comparison between harry potter and the most recent nobel prizes. That being said, I've personally never met any avid reader who said that J.K Rowling is his/her favourite author; I've only heard that from people who are not well versed in reading. I even watched a video from a booktuber with over 400K subscribers that asked her viewers what their favourite books are and the whole harry potter series combined (adding up the votes of all the individual books in the HP series altogether) ranked 27 within the top 30. So going by what I can see, it seems that most popular (bestselling) books aren't necesarily the most liked, and I don't know if in a hundred years the most remember books will be the best sold or the most liked.

[@richardn3387]

Great literature does have structure. It's just different than what is popular right now. The inciting incident has a lot more focus, earlier in the story, but it's still in Ana Karenina and Tale of Two Cities. There were still turning points and moments of doubt and an event that re-focuses the protagonist. It's just arranged differently. If I was writing in a traditional Japanese structure or Greek tradgedy structure, these tips still have merit. If the advice isn't helpful to you, fine, go watch videos by nobel and giller prize winners.