The way you move your eyebrows is exceptionally cute.

Amazing discussion and points. Thank you for this!

I have read books by very successful writers who are household names who continously describe the character's appearance especially if they are sexy, it's very irritating to read, like yeah I got the message already 😂

I think you hit the nail on the head here, that the 'flat character arc' is about how the characters around the 'flat character' change, as the world learns the moral lesson they embody. The character's lowest-point/apparent-defeat will usually be them doubting themself and or their ability to change the world around them. Also note that while these stories may not alwyas be tonally light, they are never 'grimdark' or 'gritty realistic', largely because such inflexible people rarley exist and even more rarely are able to achieve anything (arguably, a negative-flat charatcer may seem realistic as the protagonist of such a story, where there negative trait provides them with some, ruthless advantage for which they are consistantly able to avoid punishment.) Another commenter mentioned that the super-hero genre makes a lot of use of this type of character (think superman), but I'd argue that this character type is most common in the murder-mystery genre up until the 2010s. Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, Miss Marple, Jessica Fletcher, Morse, Maigret, Columbo, Dr Sloane, Inspector Barnaby; the list goes on... any one of these characters, after dozens or of hours of screen-time barely changes. As examples, they don't stop being proud or grumpy, don't stop taking drugs or don't start habits or adopt personality traits which go over episode-to-episode (they also don't tend to have [living] marital partners or children, but that's another discussion). They learn 'things' which tend to be the facts that they need to solve the case, while the people around them (and the audience) learn about the wicked things other people can do to each-other and how this benefits no-one, they also learn the value of uncovering truth and often the value of methodological/scientific investigation (especially for Holmes). Most episodes will involve them sitting down and looking tired/desperate and saying that they will take a brief rest from investigating which serves as the apparent-defeat, they may even go so far as to say they know who did it but believe they can't prove it.

Excellent stuff. Very helpful.

Wonderful

This scene has beginner-writer-101 error: not enough interiority because that's what tell-don't-show initially makes you think you're supposed to do.

I keep coming back to your videos because you explain things in such a grounded, implementable way... more than any other creator who does videos on these topics! You rock. Thank you!

Bit of a plot hole here. Being a sailor and a being baker aren't mutually exclusive. The US Navy has the CS rate (Culinary Specialist) - got a job for just anything in the service

I've been waiting for this video so much! Under the influence of chinese novels, like Heaven Officials Blessings and other MXTX works, I have become very interested in this character type Even though in the flashbacks the characters there do have a positive or negative arc, in the main timeline the arc is flat Have not watched the video yet, but am sure that I'm going to play it multiple times, as almost everything on this channel ❤

Proof read the Book of Mormon! See how many times the Lord is speaking!

please more slow

Cant wait til I can get around to this video Ellen! Always love your content!

I might have to go rewatch Legally Blonde after this...

My disruption is a set of military orders in a fantasy. I don’t know how to debate that because he literally has no choice?

Unfortunately, your focus on examples from film does no justice to the idea of 'flat-arc' (or more properly: 'competent protagonist'). You should really be looking at: Sherlock Holmes, Tarzan, Conan, etc. Your 'flat-arc' examples are generally one shot standalones. The great benefit of a 'competent protag' consists in ease of sequel

I recently came back to writing after a 13 year break. Academia really ruined my motivation for creativity, but I recently wrote 6k words (big deal for me!) but couldn’t figure out why it felt so lifeless. I found your video and the one tackling sentence structure and suddenly all the shortcomings seemed glaringly obvious. I went through and tried some of these strategies on two paragraphs and just sat back like. Oh. OH. THAT’S what it was missing. Thank you so much!

Thank you for doing these videos. Just found someone offering an $11,000 writing course. You pay that for a 4 year university course in professional writing AND editing in Australia. Heckeries. Im not saying his advice was bad. But when i went into that course i was told my dialogue was near professional level and i had wonderful phrases in my prose-- i learnt from trying, writing craft books and from videos like this on youtube! So a big thank you.

Oh heavens! Thank you for this! I've been working on a flat arc book for a while. It's been so bad. It's just not working as well as I need. Thank you!

Wow, what would Gotham be like if The Joker had the arc of The Grinch?

I Love Smart Female ❤ On another note, I enjoy learning your study points.

Thank you so much! Can't wait to watch the next video ❤

Very helpful. Thank you so much

I've always thought that a Flat Character Arc referred to one of the Arc's that everyone around them goes through as they interact with the Flat Character, since someone/something needs to change and it ain't the main character. Also, despite the misjudgment of value for Flat Characters as "boring", they still end up being the most popular main characters in fiction, because they get to the core fantasy of the world changing for you and not the other way around.

Would it be possible for a flat-arc character to go from one belief to another that is equally flat?

When I think of Flat Arcs I immediately think of superhero comics because, outside of origin stories or storylines that are meant to change a hero into a villain or an anti-hero or an anti-hero or villain into a hero, most of the stories are going to be about the hero acting as a role model and being challenged on their beliefs but holding to them. Superman or Batman might be challenged on their no-kill rules or not using their power to take over the world to enforce their values, but they always come out reaffirming why they stick to those beliefs and don't cross those lines. Another good example would be episodic comedy series where the humor is largely derived from characters having flaws and opportunities for self-reflection and personal growth but never being able to overcome those flaws or learn those lessons in order to maintain the status quo. Seinfeld's characters can never make a relationship work because they cannot be sincere or emotionally open or overcome their shallowness and selfishness. Every time they approach an epiphany and consider changing their behavior, they always end up sliding back into their old habits. In Invader Zim, Zim and Dib can never get over their core belief that they need to prove themselves to other people. So even when Zim finds out his mission is fake in the movie he still pursues it in an attempt to impress his leaders while Dib is told outright that he doesn't need to prove anything to his father, but we see in comics following the movie that he still feels that he needs to make his dad come around and admit that he's right and impress him with his accomplishments. In Arrested Development, Michael Bluth can never escape his toxic family because every time he tries to cut and run, he gets roped into coming back.

Cool concept for flat characters. 👍🦋

Idk if this would stress you out too much Ellen but with longer videos I think a lot of viewers like the timestamp sections so that they can click over to what they specifically need. I was a KZbinr myself so I know it kinda sucks having to scroll through your own video and type the timestamps but I noticed viewership always goes way up because if someone gets bored they just scroll to the next section instead of clicking off if that makes sense. Anyway hope this helps I owe you my life!

I’m honored to watch a new video of Ellen’s. Got here like a month or 2 ago. I think I’ve watched every video

I'm really late to the party, but the no nose divot thing most probably means that between the tip of her nose and her forehead there's something of a straight line, kind of like the alien avatars.

Thanks Ellen... you did a great job here

I understood publishing to mean the business or profession of editing, producing, and marketing books.

By chance, is there anything that closely resembles a flat character arc for most of the story, but subverts it at the end (maybe, a tragic flat character arc?)

Amazing and well explained concepts as always. Thank you!

I love you!

Loved the video. You always make me smile.

Great!

Oo, I’m excited for the next part. I’m about 85% done with a U shaped flat character arc.

Thank you so much for this! It really helps me understand and describe my love for characters who are sometimes dismissed as Mary Sues. So insightful.

You alive!! So long since I’ve seen you posting new videos!

I really like "talking about story telling" on this channel. It is like watching music theory videos (another hobby of mine). So thank you for making them. I have seen a lot of movies and tv shows both blokbusters, bollywood, french, anime and nordic. And I like watching something that is a little out there and many not for everyone. I like fast dum action movies and slow philosophic talking movies. Don't missunderstand me I don't love all stories, in fact I will consider myself very picky and videos like yours helps me understand why I like Harry Potter (or LOTR) and not Fantastic Beasts (The Hobbit), but even after seeing plenty of videos about storytelling and movie making it is still hard for me to make a coherent argument for or against a movie, thus most of the time I stick to "don't waste your time", "it is ok" and "I love it" when asked. When recommending something I usually just name other movies that I think are similar enough, and if they like them, then I recommend it. But that also means that for some movies and series I don't recommend them to people that have not watched a lot of movies, even though I loved the show/movie. Like I am not going to recommend Neon Genesis Evangelion to someone that has only seen Pokémon as there only Anime, even if they loved The Matrix and 2001: a space odyssey. I would probably try a "gait way drog" like psycho-pass first (It is also a master peace [It is not without faults, but season 1 is really good], but much easier to enjoy, I think). Thus I am always trying to improve my understanding of story telling, just to understand my own taste in stories better the same way as I am trying to understand my taste in music better. It might just help me find something new to love. Lately I been thinking about "Frieren: beyond journey's end". I love that show, but I don't understand why I love it so much. I like the philosophy about life and time, and how we spend out time. I think the dub is well made, the drawings are great (or good enough for the story to shine through). The show is both very compact, fast and slow at the same time. I find the correctors are interesting and well written, but it does not feel like something I have seen before. Although I could name plenty af anime series that basically doe the same thing, no of them feels quiet the same. It feels a little like LOTR mixed with studio ghibli (think something like My Neighbor Totoro). I would love a video about the storytelling methods used in Frieren, maybe it is very simple and just well done, but it honestly feels new to me. I would recommend everyone to watch the first 3 episodes, it is only one hour (maybe 4 if you want more plot setup, but I think the first 3 are the most important episodes to understand the series.) It is an easy watch, very wholesome, maybe a little sad but it does not feel like work watching is 😂. It is not for children, not that there is extreme violence or sex or anything, I just think you need to be an adult or an young adult to be interested in the story. But forsure some kids will probably also love it. Just as some kids love LOTR, even though I would say the story is best for adults. Sorry that got way too long. You video must have made me thing a little too much. 😂

When you let down your hair, you go from a professor to Rob Zombie!

A lot of these seem to fall into the Blake Snyder "Institutionalized" story style. Do you ever think about that "genre" list as an editor?

The aspect of rebellion against social norms was a revelation. Now I understand why male flat arc characters in action films are fine but anyone who dares make an action movie with a female flat arc character gets pilloried as a "sTrOnG fEmAlE cHaRaCtEr." Its sad such hypocrisy is so broadly normalized.

I was just watching one of your videos yesterday Thought maybe you disappeared Welcome back Enjoy your videos

Thanks for your writing tips, Ellen! Great video!

ayyyy ellen! so happy to see ya! hope you're doing well!

Let me begin by saying I find you and your videos fascinating and can't imagine anyone with whom I'd rather share a cup of coffee. That said, I often find things in my writing about which you've discussed in your videos -- but I didn't set out to design and include them. I'm a pantser and just try to write something I'd find entertaining. I wonder if you make an effort to pull out the structures you describe while you are reading something 'just for fun'? Do you think the authors of the movies you referenced sat down and designed character arcs etc, then wrote their stories? I get the feeling that programs, or editors, that analyze stories spend hours digging out things the things the author didn't intentionally include or those story features just matched in, uninvited like characters so often do? For example, I got an AI based story analyzer and used it to analyze a story I'd written. It gave me a 120 page analysis of a 20 page story. I understood everything it told me but didn't see how implementing all its suggestions would improve the story--it would certainly change the story but would it improve it; would it make the reader more likely to give it five stars instead of three? I'm sorry, this has gone on and on. Again, I really love your videos. I'll say goodbye for now, stay safe and healthy, and keep writing. 😊

Elle Woods from Legally Blonde is one of my favorite protagonists. A big part of that is her flat arc.

thanx so much. in watching this I realize many of my favorite stories have flat ark main characters. when I write I find my self doubting the advice about character ark because it seems to interfere with the "Character" of my main character. I suspect if I look back at my writing many of my stories will have flat ark lead characters.