Will PCSL Replace USPSA at Your Club?

[@DUTYGRADE]

PCSL needs a classification system. Something for people to strive for and compete with others nationally. Having no classification systems limits the competition to your local match, for only that match. Having a long term, performance based system brings people back again and again to test their improvements.

[@DJG37S]

No it does not need a classifier, matter of fact why does uspsa have a classifier??? The rest of the world shoots ipsc, and they don’t have classifiers. We here in the states are the only shooting league where we have classification and it’s stupid. Everyone should just compete against each other like ipsc.

[@DUTYGRADE]

@@DJG37S a lot of shooters are chasing that classification. Its fun, it drives you to get better, its a set standard so you can see your progress through your training. Theres classifications in every sport. D1/2/3 ncaa sports are an example.

[@DJG37S]

@@DUTYGRADE classifications don't drive people to get better. I know plenty of people who are A class shooters that will place top 10 overall at a major. Classifications are stupid because there are classifications where some one can easily get a GM norm and yet not even shoot 80% a a major. Also, colleges don't have classifications LOL. As a former D1 football player, what classifies a school in college is actually the size and the amount of programs they offer. So no it's not about classification LOL, especially for the athlete.

[@DUTYGRADE]

@@DJG37S thats fine, does that mean if i win my local match that i can compete on the national level? No. The classification system ranks you nationally to show where you actually stand. Also, if d1/2 isnt a classification why dont more d2 and d3 players play in the nfl?

[@overbuiltlimited]

​@@DJG37S "I know plenty of people who are A class shooters that will place top ten at a major." No you don't. Also, there is a huge difference between occasionally being able to rip a GM level classifier and doing it consistently. GM is a goal that appeals to a lot of shooters including myself. Knowing the skill level of other shooters is appealing to me. Knowing that if you make GM that you are within 5% of the top shooters is appealing. If it's not appealing to you that's fine, but to say it's "stupid" or that it doesn't motivate others to train shows you don't talk to many shooters that care about their progress. Shooters that care about their progress care about their classification, just as you still care all these years later that you were a D1 football player.

[@1341usmc]

We did a major PCSL 1-gun match in the Savannah area. It was a great match and I hope we do more of them.

[@ajsomp]

Which club put it on? I’m coming from Kings Bay but would love the opportunity to shoot one in the relative area

[@janemccullough3009]

​@@ajsompI believe it was at the Club in Fleming, 17 South.

[@janemccullough3009]

Why not host unsanctioned USPSA matches? We have 2 a month, $10.

[@1341usmc]

@@ajsomp It was 17South Practical Shooters Club - just south of Savannah.

[@1341usmc]

@@janemccullough3009 Yep, it was.

[@Davinoadam]

Our club in Vegas has already switched one weekend a month to PCSL. Attendance was a little less as the guys with Major PF guns didn’t want to come out. But people who normally shoot CO, PCC and Production- as well as all the 3-Gunners with 9mm 2011s - came to play.

[@great0able]

What club, desert sportsman? Boulder? Im thinking of starting comp down here

[@mikeDstoker]

Pro Gun. Every 2nd weekend

[@jamesdomenico2953]

Yes, the process is already moving that direction. I started 2 gun matches last year using PCSL rule set, and our USPSA club is possibly moving to PCSL rules next year. The monthly carbine match has also switched to the PCSL rule set as well.

[@American_hobo]

Ive shot James’ 1/2gun matches this summer. Great time & good stages!

[@jossicruz]

I messaged the PCSL Instagram account asking if they plan to institute a classification system. I got a quick reply confirming, yes, that they plan to implement one hopefully next year. That's good to hear and will further help people move over from USPSA I think.

[@ProjectD13X]

I had a blast at their 2 gun nationals in St George last year, and the one gun nationals this year was pretty fun too, excited for the next 2 gun nationals out in AZ this winter.

[@rolotomase1440]

I like the idea of really only a few divisions. Essentially Open, Limited and Optics and no "sub divisions" based on power factor.

[@throwaway633]

Good info. Haven’t heard of it till today when I say it as an upcoming match. I’m all for it.

[@manabellum]

There is the same thing happened in Thailand as well. We have a new organisation called HDP (Home Duty Pistol) which is basically the mix between IDPA and IPSC. They take the rules from both and make it better, clearer wording in local language. And there are classifications for every gun you can legally buy, even .22LR. Here there is no drama whatsoever but people are overwhelmed by the aggressive nature (and equipments) of IPSC but still also cannot get their heads around the complex (and sometimes nonsense) rules of IDPA. So HDP offers the middle ground. There are a mix of stages (freestyle = IPSC, Home Defence = IDPA, and Basic Skills) and the stages are not arranged to intentionally DQ shooters like those in major matches. They even have dedicated web app to apply for the match, see 3D rotatable model of each stages and real-time score reporting, classification and records that I think is better than Practiscore. (You can first person walk the stage on your mobile phone. Suddenly the suggestion that you have to actually see the stage in person to plan the shooting does not hold true anymore.) So it becomes suddenly popular and have >200 shooters in each match even though it’s just started last year. Despite that the matches often took no longer than 6 hours (including lunch break) to complete all 10 stages. As everything are robust and automated and all SO are trained very well and efficient.

[@mikeDstoker]

I started hosting PCSL 1 gun last month. Had a decent turn out. Last weekend we had 89 shooters register. More than uspsa has had here in years. Thats a lot for a local in 110 degree heat

[@greglaird9390]

My club already fills a 50+ person match every month for PCSL multi-gun. It is a great format with a fantastic ruleset for club matches.

[@abigger04]

We have been running PCSL this year at our new public range. First PCSL club in Arkansas and it’s been well attended

[@jasonwelch8]

One of our local clubs just got some targets and plans to run some matches to try it out. Also Ben you definitely need to go shoot some PCSL. I think there’s a lot of guys like me that would love to see you out there competing again, especially now that you’re training rifle. I think it could really help boost PCSL as well.

[@elusive5884]

Just signed up for my first PCSL 2 Gun match. Looking forward to it!

[@lovetopew9054]

Our club has switched from 4 USPSA matches/month to 3 PCSL and one USPSA per month. We run matches year around, indoors and outdoors.

[@calgarysparky]

Checked it out, more set up for 2 gun vs pistol. Good luck to them though.

[@Maxamundi]

We have PCSL 1-Gun. 4 handgun divisions and PCC.

[@agentsmith7658]

I’ve been wondering about this for a while now. Makes sense to me. Hopefully USPSA gets it shit together however PCSL seems a decent alternative.

[@CTrain]

Needs a classification system for it to take over. There’s more b and c class people than GM’s. The good shooters want Pcsl already. The norms don’t want to get rid of USPSA though.

[@Ddayam82]

My local club is thinking about running some indoor PCSL matches over the winter

[@Argentum7756]

My biggest criticisms of PCSL is that it really does need a Heavy Metal division for people who just want to shoot larger and heavier recoiling calibers. Calibers that are fun but not optimized for competition like .45 ACP handguns and .308 carbines. Also having the carbine paper targets being white really throws those of us who shoot a ton of USPSA off lol.

[@Maxamundi]

I feel like we're doing great if those are your biggest criticisms :D Shoot one stage with white carbine targets and it'll feel natural, and they're extremely pleasant to shoot! IPSC has been using white shoot targets forever. Why is the USPSA standard to have white denote both a shoot and no-shoot target (steel/paper)? Makes no sense. We see a lot of matches going to alternate colored steel like blue, or even yellow like at the recent Area 3 Championship.

[@jbarres80]

I shot my 1st uspsa match last night it was fun got lot to learn As someone new I think it would be cool to have say a EDC Class like say Glock 17 size and under and as ,one as ya can carry it you can shoot it optic Magwell trigger comp ect I feel this class would pull ton of new shooters to sport because they can run what they have

[@stephentrindall8484]

Love PCSL but I'm getting tired of waiting for Practiscore support. I was told in October 2023 that it was being worked on and would be in version 2. 7 months later I'm still waiting.

[@SnapD24]

All I want is a lil 2-gun and gas gun DMR matches to sprinkle in between my pistol matches

[@davidkoncur3861]

Recently shot a 7 stage PCSL 2 Gun Match, it was fun. Saying that I still prefer USPSA rules and divisions. I don't see them at mutually exclusive. Just another format to shoot.

[@glefos3917]

I’ve shot a PCSL match. It was excellent. I’ll shoot more for sure. 👍

[@3gundmd]

Is that shirt from Dan Flashes? The pattern is so intense.

[@captainrevolver6998]

Besides the money issue, what makes PCSL matches better than USPSA matches?

[@tropicalpines4585]

If I was at a less busy time in my life I’d be trying to direct a match near me, but I will keep an eye out for them. Haven’t seen any come up in New England yet.

[@BostonBoy2L]

There are a few listed on practiscore in NH and Maine. All 2-Gun.

[@tropicalpines4585]

@@BostonBoy2L I’ll check them out. I’ve never shot 2 gun, but I would consider it.

[@BostonBoy2L]

@@tropicalpines4585 same never shot it either.

[@owensthomas]

Ben, Will you compete in this new league?

[@scottinohio701]

Im ALL in!!!!!!!!!!! Screw USPSA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@RobinRobertsesq]

The only thing I don't care for is the single source for targets. There is a club in Eastern Colorado section that has begun running PCSL matches.

[@nickdahlberg2266]

Yep! We un-affiliated with USPSA last year. We don’t get anything for the money we give them, except for a mismanaged organization, lead mostly by people who waste money and insult the membership. The model PCSL has works great and will continue to grow. It’s likely to eventually surpass USPSA if the next few area elections keep the same or similar people around.

[@chrisdarcy8998]

Yeah, PCSL looks like a great idea, but, the more people get involved, the more rule changes will come, then classifications, more divisions, the governing body needs to be larger, club politics come in, you mentioned majors, so that means prizes, staff expenses, etc., etc., then the dreaded money raises it head, and the fun starts. IDPA rule book was 17 pages or so originally, now with the various appendices, it's close to 100. Things evolve, sometimes necessary, not always for the best. Our club has discussed PCSL so we'll see how that works out. We've actually started putting on our own matches, we call them defensive matches, very few rules, basically safety, sometimes we'll have a "procedure", sometimes fault-lines, a stage might be just paper targets but we'll also use poppers, falling steel, clays, have swingers, drop turners, etc., etc. Yes we have SO's/RO's.

[@sphill_edc]

Our club is in discussions with going to PCSL now

[@jimbojames6936]

Ben your next video should be of you tearing up a PCSL match. You know the board memebers would be watching it sweating.

[@bigjeep127]

My favorite part of PCSL is that 1 head shot counts for 2 hits vs 2 body shots. At least that's how they do it at our local 2-gun PCSL.

[@huafist01]

I dig this also - it's like hit factor 3 gun scoring.

[@julianmercier]

If PCSL does not have a 121 page rule book, I might look into it.

[@somebrains5431]

People want a system they can put a label on their skillset. Whether they want to compare themselves to others at whatever radius is a series of debates. Adding a n extra scoring column with a qualifier for pcsl as a key is trivial to anyone that’s taken a jr college database or web Dev class. I don’t see an issue as you can essentially mirror scores as they stand on the PCSL site if they so chose. What’s good about PCSL is there is less equipment focused funneling. Casual shooters want to shoot. Telling casual shooters in a passive aggressive manner what they can and cannot shoot for their own amusement and curiosity is off putting. So let’s see what choices are made bc it seems like only outlaw matches seem to get general public participation right. Bowing to a small niche is generally a way to kill off general interest. There’s also an opportunity to think about better video capture, overhead footage, plan stages that are visually appealing to attract participants. Use a progression system to level out differing personal interests from the casual participant pool. As always, there’s that new computer vision library Apple just released to day to try out. Cut some opinion out in scoring and performance and replace with informed feedback.

[@thomashansen9390]

Pcsl 2 gun is a blast

[@CompShooter54]

I recently had some rule questions about division specific equipment that I sent to the USPSA rules committee, and was extremely disappointed in their answers. I asked very detailed questions, and from 2 different people got the same answers: refer to section bla bla bla, or appendix so and so. I replied that I knew how to read, but needed clarification on a certain point. Nope, just read the rules. They have made it clear that they have no interest in us as shooters. Maybe it's time to move on to a place where people give a shit about the shooters that are paying them.

[@jesseboehler8900]

My favorite matches are outlaw steel

[@kylewalton7005]

ya if i read it right if a club calls their match a uspsa match there has to be a classifier. very wierd. i hope it does get bigger. as someone who is just not very accurate pcsl really is appealing with its scoring. i was excited when max moved his stuff to prairie fire but he's not doing very many matches. im sure hos sponsors still want him going to a lot of uspsa matches.

[@FUNshoot]

How is PCSL planning to address the lack of promotion (public affairs articles/stories) about shooting events and shooters in local media? Every shooting organization to date has failed to do this and it's the primary reason why shooting sports remain a fringe activity.

[@xdivineHART]

Dang, so was I wrong to panic buy a lifetime membership?

[@kevinhagberg1929]

USPSA’s drastic rise in membership dues May very well push people to this new league.

[@johnb7430]

The uspsa match fees were the single largest ongoing cost.

[@aussieexpat]

USPSA gets no money from me. I'll look out for the first PCSL match near by.

[@mousemx1534]

I wish my local club would switch. 70% of those that shoot my local match aren’t even USPSA members and the organization does NOTHING for the club so what’s the point 🤷‍♂️

[@RV7695]

PCSL will need to have Pistol only match formats to replace USPSA in my opinion. PCSL seems like a competition home for the more tactical oriented vs USPSA gravitates more to pure sport competition shooters.

[@Maxamundi]

We do, it's called PCSL 1-Gun. 4 handgun divisions and PCC.

[@lovetopew9054]

PCSL will become more of a thing if big names are drawn to matches. cough cough WI 1-gun championship registration is open, cough cough.

[@robertwatson818]

PCSL?

[@JofoTubin]

No revolver division?! I'm out.

[@carlb86]

😂

[@bret44]

They should add a rule that effectively makes pistols drop safe, at least if on concrete. i.e. minimum pull and no removing trigger parts. Maybe no 320s lol. An RO got killed a couple years ago, maybe only have matches on sand.

[@DUTYGRADE]

Negligence killed an RO. Not the gun.

[@bret44]

@@DUTYGRADE Not sure what you mean by negligence? The guy missed his holster. That would be an accident. If you mean that the guy was negligent because the gun wasn't safe then I agree but then that would apply to the entirety of open and most of limited. Don't you think there should be rule about it then? At least on concrete.

[@DUTYGRADE]

@@bret44 missing your holster with a loaded gun is negligence. Everything would have been safe if not for the shooters blatant negligence to ensure the gun is properly holstered before letting go.

[@bret44]

@@DUTYGRADEI don’t agree.

[@DUTYGRADE]

@@bret44 tons of open guns are shot every single day without issue, the issue only arises when human negligence intervenes man. But we can disagree, we cant change the rules ourselves anyways.