Will's Downwind SUP Foil Journey - Diary # 2 - Long vs. thin and first open water downwinders

Downwind SUP Foiling mania is sweeping the world...this exciting discipline has captured the imagination of many including our co-founder, Will. In this series Reuben will be talking to Will regularly to understand his progress, what he's learning and sharing tips on how to progress in your own journey.
In part 2 - Will continues on his mini UK tour and shares his first real open water downwinder. Will then paddles a load of different boards and talks about the long and thin vs. short and wide decision.
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[@peter240365]

Great real world info - looks like the estuary run you did is a mostly zero fetch run which require a lot of wind to build up any meaningful energy (hence the one guy sitting it out unless it's 25kn). The upside of those runs is that the bumps are very close together and therefore steeper and easier to chip into, They also allow for much bigger foils to be used as they are much slower than open ocean swells. Stability of the newer downwind boards is very much a function of width over length - the longer skinnier boards are virtually as stable as the shorter wider boards. I ride a 8'2 x 20 Signature and a 7'0 x 23 AK Nomad (both 115L) and they are really close in stability - the extra length allows you to shave width significantly. But the in short period windchop the longer length is not really needed as the chip in is much steeper and easier. Every downwind location is different and the locals will by now have worked out (to some degree) what is the right gear for that location - as was the case with your guys o your run.

[@SUPboardermag]

Thanks for your comment and thoughts. I think you are bang on - every spot has its gear!! Yes, length does effect stability, its a linear relationship....Its a complex subject but in simple terms a 11' board would be 10% more stable than a 10' one... but width has a cubic relationship, so has far more impact on stability. But when the very long skinny boards come into play, for sure it can all get very comparable in terms of stability. Cheers, Will - SUPboarder Loads detail on this subject here, although hydrofoils are not discussed, and they may have in impact on the primary stability as well.... supboardermag.com/2023/06/10/the-fundamentals-of-a-boards-stability-sup-tech-talk/

[@frenijffels]

Awesome episode - great to hear different perspectives

[@SUPboardermag]

Glad you enjoyed it! Cheers, Will - SUPboarder

[@tahfiet]

I would like to see more info on the SMIK customs… Sounds like a great compromise

[@andycorbe]

Definitely agree with the thoughts on wind strength but tide/current also makes a huge difference. We have some amazing dw runs up in Scotland (particularly around Oban) because no ground swell gets into the lochs but it needs 20 knots plus to really get going. The difference between wind with vs wind against tide is huge, the shape and size of the lumps gets so much better when the current is against the wind. Spots like Loch Fyne get bumps very much like the Gorge when everything lines up, I couldn't imaging riding those bumps on anything but a dw foil though unless you're pumping and paddling loads, you really need the speed range and glide to make the continuous connections to be efficient.

[@SUPboardermag]

Hey Andy, thanks for your comment. Absolutely...the tides and currents are super important, particularly in areas throughout the globe with large tidal ranges. Its insane how much a wind against tide will push up a bump. Have been eying up some the potential you have up there and hopefully we can try and catch up for a session soon.....in my mind there is huge potential for inland DW runs on lakes and lochs.... with little focus on it so far.... What DW foils are you using ? Cheers, Will

[@andycorbe]

@@SUPboardermag Hit me up if you're doing a Scotland trip. We've been downwinding with wings since 2020 and have quite a few epic runs with a motivated local crew. Most runs are 20-30km on the Lochs which get super clean bumps and have roads running alongside for easy retrieve. We also do some longer runs between the islands and use the ferries for retrieve. I've made some youtude guides to a few of the regular runs to encourage more folks to try them. A few of us are on the SUP struggle bus doing the shorter milk runs successfully but to be honest when it's really cranking I'm still in two minds whether to take the SUP or use a smaller board and foil and really use the conditions to the max, mission for this year is to put the wings aside and get to doing the long epic runs purely on SUP foil. Currently really loving the Axis Spitfires (960 & 1100), they carve amazing and have a great speed range, the ART Pro's have better glide but I don't find them as fun in the steep bumps we get.

[@SUPboardermag]

@@andycorbe Will do! The wing downwinder is such a good way to develop skills for paddle down winding and I think perhaps a step missed by many in their 'journey'. Your videos are a great resource. What DW paddle board are you using ? Are you using the same foils when paddling/ winging? Cheers, Will

[@andycorbe]

@@SUPboardermag Thankyou! Yes I think for anyone winging already it's low hanging fruit to get into downwinding with the wing. Managing the wing while purely riding swell can be a challenge in the beginning but you soon learn where to put it so it isn't in the way and after a while you don't even think about it. Early on I thought doing downwinders would be so much better with only a paddle in the hand but now I'm doing both I'm not so sure that one is really so much better than the other (apart from the satisfaction of having cracked the SUP paddle up which is so much harder). I guess once you get to the really light wind days where there is only ground swell then paddling has a bigger advantage. RE the paddle, I started with a cheap SIC plastic bladed job and cracked the flat water paddle ups using that. I then bought a Carbon 2 piece (Starboard Enduro XL) thinking that it would now make paddleups really easy but to be honest I didn't notice a lot of difference. I think once you have the timing and selection of the right bump, the paddle up in DW conditions is so much easier than on the flat, more important is the board and foil. Btw the AFS team came for a visit last year and made a nice video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXaqlYVqrK94rLM

[@Stev-0_The_Foiler_69]

Interesting to get some real world feedback on DW board shapes. I have gone for a 6'10 x 24" hybrid DW shape as it is so versatile for light wind winging, downwind foiling, SUP foiling and prone foiling with a Foil Drive. It is good value for $ as it is now my go-to board for a lot of different conditions and disciplines. Stability in choppy water states is so important - especially when you are getting tired - and is a lesson from SUP downwinding and SUP surfing that might need to be remembered for foiling i.e. I'm seeing more narrow DW boards around here but not sure if the riders have much DW experience in choppy water or the technique and fitness - so they are buying into the hype? Also, I have got the Axis ART Pro 1201 but yet to try it in choppy DW conditions.

[@SUPboardermag]

Hey Stephen, Great to hear your feedback - where are you riding this 6'10 x 24 and what type of conditions? Cheers, Will

[@Stev-0_The_Foiler_69]

​@@SUPboardermag I'm in Auckland, NZ riding s PPC Link 6'10 x 24" @128L. I use it for light wind winging and SUP foiling with Foil Drive for wake thieving, riding small swells, and mini downwinders. The Foil Drive unlocks a lot of new use-cases for the new hybrid downwind boards as you have the energy/tool to get on foil so don't need the length and waterline to get speed so you can ride a shorter board.

[@olivierdecroly661]

Hi, again so inserting vs. what's already out there !!! Will you release a pro version of this video?

[@SUPboardermag]

Thanks for your feedback - there is a PRO version already out.... in this series the PRO videos will go out earlier and have more info in... Cheers, Will

[@svensshed1564]

105kg guy here and I have a 7’3x27 and I reckon that is a sweet spot for me. I still want to be able to balance on my board, so I wont be going really skinny. I think we are going too extreme on board design right now and I think we will come back to more moderate shapes and widths

[@SUPboardermag]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's always best to ride boards that you feel comfortable with and not struggling on something too small. Cheers, Beau

[@MrConfo]

Very interesting thanks. I don't practice yet DW foiling but i would like to know if you use a different paddle height between a regular supsurf session and a DW session ? I use a paddle of my height in supsurfing.

[@SUPboardermag]

Yes, generally using a race length paddle - for me I like small shaka above my head for DW, but ive also been using a larger blade as well. Took a bit of getting used to but more sprint focus benefits from larger blade size I think. Just need to be careful not to overload shoulder though! Cheers, Will - SUPboarder

[@MrConfo]

@@SUPboardermag Thanks for your precisions, DW sup foiling looks the more attractive foiling activity for me (not yet tested). The huge evolution of the boards shape make me think at the beginning of the kitesurf 25 years ago, when a sport goes from a confidential and difficult stuff to expand into a more democratic activity. No doubt that the strong wind necessity and open waters remains strong logistic and security subjects, that's also why it's certainly pure magic !

[@finbox1000]

Great vids team!! I would very much appreciate your advice. I am about to pull the trigger and get into Downwind sup foiling. I live in Queenstown NZ with an 82km lake on my doorstep. I am an advanced sup surfer and paddled surfskis for 30 years ( surf life saving and down wind races) What the heck do I buy for downwind sup foiling predominantly on a lake and the very occasional ocean session??? I don’t care what brand, what we can get down here is very limited. Thanks very much for your time. Cheers Finn

[@SUPboardermag]

Hey Finn, be great to know what type of foiling experience you have and your weight and height. What type of wind strength do you think you will be getting on the lake and how long is the lake? All this info will help us guide you better :) Cheers, Will

[@finbox1000]

Hey Team. Thanks very much for getting back to me!!! I do not have much foil experience, I started wing foiling but had to sell the kit reasonably soon after I got it. I picked it up pretty quickly, I could get up on foil but did not get to the tacking stage. I am 5'7 and 75kg. I guess the average wind speed would be from 15kph to 35kph. I am a strong paddler and an advanced sup surfer, so i am very very pumped to get into the DW sup foiling. Thanks very much for your time again!!!@@SUPboardermag

[@SUPboardermag]

@@finbox1000 your sup surf experience is going to really help you as you will be able to paddle with power.... but your wind conditions are on the lighter side. 35kph should be ok, particularly if the lake kicks up a little bump, but I would be thinking 7 or 8 x 20 on the board and a pump style foil to start with at around 1700cm2. Wide boards in the lighter wind would be really hard work in your conditions. Does that help a little? Will

[@finbox1000]

@@SUPboardermag Hey Will. Thanks very much for that. Makes perfect sense. Thanks again and keep up the amazing work with the channel 👌 Cheers. Finn 👊

[@avinashbikha]

Would be nice to see him trying the AK Nomad, 115 literish? 23" wide. Sounds like a middle ground. Great video!

[@SUPboardermag]

Yes, good looking board ..... we are getting in touch with AK :) Cheers, Will