Will there EVER be a GMO American Chestnut?!! HUGE SETBACK!

John discusses the recent HUGE NEWS regarding the Genetically Modified American Chestnut Tree! This could set things back DECADES! #chestnuts #lakeeriechestnuts #americanchestnut
The American Chestnut Foundation statement on why they've pulled support(It is about 1/2-way down the page): tacf.org/darling-58/#:~:text=....

[@danhealyeverythingoutdoors7105]

None of us should ever forget all the hard work Mr. Powel has done on this subject and we should all be forever grateful !

[@johnsangl]

I agree wholeheartedly. He made great strides & it is just a shame with the mix-up and recent negative news. Hopefully he has laid the framework to getting a truly resistant American Chestnut though!

[@robertboucher1748]

It would have been so nice if this had worked. Hopefully there is ongoing research that will bring the AC back.

[@johnsangl]

At least the tree is getting the attention of the scientific community - time & attention will hopefully lead to a resilient tree!

[@Packard3spdOD]

Just a few further details. "D58" that all the work had been done on turned out to actually be D54. There was apparently a mixup in the pollen initially used to produce the trees that all the work went forward with. The OxO gene in actual D58 is on chromosome 7, in an intron. In D54 it's on chromosome 4, where the insertion interrupts a gene that encodes an enzyme thought to be involved in drought tolerance. This would seem to explain why people who say that they have seen "D58"s in greenhouses can tell which ones they are from their curled leaves with brown edges. Clearly this was not a tree to go forward with. Once the mixup was discovered, and with no willingness in NY to come forward with that, TACF had no choice but to pull its support. As a member, I fully support that decision. Further, the promoter used with the OxO gene, from cauliflower mosaic virus, was one that was "always on". That was the technology that was available at the time. But now with better promoters that will activate the gene only under certain conditions, those are more attractive alternatives. Effort is not being put into using a "wound-inducible" promoter, with OxO that will only activate the gene when the bark is wounded, sparing the tree devoting energy to producing OxO all the time, when not needed (which may explain the less-than-robust growth of the "D58"s). The shorthand for these trees is DarWin (Darling Wound INducible).

[@davidsoloninka7742]

I planted about 10 of the healthiest looking seeds from my 36 tree orchard this fall. I carefully planted them with a growtub and rebar stake. I make the grow tube sink into the dirt a few inches to prevent critters from digging underneath and eating the nut. I have had good growth in the past with the grow tubes.

[@johnsangl]

That is the way to do it. Nice job. I don't hate grow tubes - I've just come to like wire cages better.

[@WhatWeDoChannel]

I was so sad for everyone when I watched the chestnut chat where they announced the withdrawal! I think they have a good plan for moving forward with an improved tree, one with a promoter that won’t have the oxo gene turned on all the time! I have seen some interesting stuff about 100% American chestnuts with resistance and cross breeding those, that is certainly what they are working on in Ontario Canada.

[@johnsangl]

I think everyone would prefer a natural American Chestnut tree with natural resistance - I remain optimistic they'll come up with a solution at some point.

[@WildJourneys]

good update...I will have to listen to it again. What a bummer. I just received 10 seedlings of the wild type. Trying to start them in Orlando before planting them near Asheville. Squirrel got one, 9 seem to be alive and budding....once I get them to NC I will be relieved. Thanks for posting.

[@RobG7aChattTN]

I’m still holding out for the transgenic American Chestnut. I’m not going to grow any hybrids. I don’t have anything against hybrids in general but these chestnut hybrids just don’t measure up.

[@johnsangl]

I'm growing the hybrids and will add the transgenic or an improved American if it becomes available.

[@StarsBarsAndCheese]

I have a 50/50 American Chinese chestnut tree from Rural King. I just want a shade tree in my backyard and am autistic for Chestnuts.

[@rockingretirementoutdoors3249]

Great information and Happy New Year!

[@johnsangl]

Thanks Brother! Same to you. Hope you’re getting settled and all is well!

[@jimmymcdonald1638]

We all know this won't happen in our lifetime but the cause is worth the fight if it takes 10 generations

[@johnsangl]

Each generation will carry the torch until we find a remedy!

[@RobG7aChattTN]

They absolutely should be able to finish this project soon. All the hard work has been done. They just need a different promoter.

[@Alexander-rq9he]

Are there any studies on the blight itself? Like what kills the blight naturally? It seems they’re focusing on modifying the trees resistance and not on the virulence of the fungus. Also, have they found any specimens to have a natural resistance?

[@johnsangl]

No American tree has any useful level of resistance. Lots of research on the blight - no good curative treatment available.

[@9and7]

Yet. This is a war that will end badly for the blight. @@johnsangl

[@nhmountains5683]

Nice explanation John. I’ve been told that the ACF no longer has an interest in producing the 15/16 trees so it sounds like it’ll be years before there’s anything. I guess the 15/16 results weren’t up to par either. Good luck on the logging. I’m going through that right now as well.

[@GriffenNaif]

Wonderful breakdown. Thanks for doing all the hard work. I'm trying to find my land to do something like you do. I was hoping the back cross program could give us a higher American percentage... only to find out they screwed up their program on the 1st generation, too. I swear TACF is trying to destroy our good will. 22 min mark 25:45 TACF mistakes made😮 kzbin.info/www/bejne/npuvo6qOo9mMoNksi=HkkyusopI79tMuA2 My understanding is this program is attempting to correct it

[@johnsangl]

I had not heard that they’ve given up on the 15/16 tree. I’ll have to see what that is all about. Logging is going well so far - I’ll have a video showing the start of logging in a couple days.

[@jefferyforeman7905]

I'm sure when we harvest the first time light could get in Something could grow and that hurts it

[@dansmith2966]

Great info as always John . I hope that the foundation succeeds soon . Time and effort that doesn't work is a shame . Chestnuts , Weeping Alaskan Cedar and Asparagus seeds are in the fridge . Waiting on new apple rootstocks and scion wood. Have you ever heard any negatives about planting apples and chestnuts in the same plot ? Approx 25' apart . Limited acreage. ! Thank you for all the help !!

[@johnsangl]

I've never heard of anything negative or positive regarding mixing apples & chestnuts. I have plenty of apples near the orchard & haven't noted anything negative for either species. 25ft seems reasonable with the understanding you'll likely need to thin in a couple decades. I just ordered some Antonovka rootstock & some scionwood from Fedco the other day as well. Can't wait!

[@dansmith2966]

@@johnsangl Fedco is great, catalogs are like a Mother Earth news /Farmers almanac . I ordered all disease resistant varieties (10) to graft to Antonovka . Cant wait to plant next fall , fingers crossed .Good luck with your grafting !!

[@ebr-fan1117]

I collected several nuts from some large healthy American trees this past fall and currently have them in moist soil in the fridge. We'll see what happens with them in ten years or so.

[@johnsangl]

Good luck! Nothing wrong with keeping the species chugging along while a cure is sought!

[@tjab1715]

Thank you!!!

[@johnsangl]

You’re welcome. Thanks for watching & commenting.

[@GriffenNaif]

What's you opinion on the Ozark Chinquapin? Looks like they have a set of trees that are already more resistant than Chinese chestnut. And have a better nutritional value than nearly all other nuts. I have pignuts, hickory, and acorns in fridge

[@johnsangl]

I don’t grow any of those but I’m sure they’d be good additions to a property if they can survive. I don’t think they are a dominate tree in the forest though.

[@linkin622]

We are getting close, the goal of repopulating has tremendous support and enthusiasm. None of us will live to see it but the American Chestnut will return to dominance in the Appalachians.

[@johnsangl]

Maybe we can haunt the new Chestnut Woods once they're established!

[@StarsBarsAndCheese]

Perhaps we will live to see it.

[@Isaacmantx]

I followed the transgenic chestnut project in the early days... hoping they find a different gene to try and we can get the American Chestnut back in the woods where it belongs.

[@johnsangl]

I'm hoping the same!

[@shawnantill2067]

I just found an young American on my property this fall and am thinking about planting another one for pollination , maybe get lucky and have a few years of producing . And I am only 1 hour south from you John and like your input and videos Thanks!

[@johnsangl]

Why not try it?! You can always try mud-packing the blight when it shows up and buy a few more years with them. Best of luck!

[@davidsoloninka7742]

Yes I have a few pure A. Chestnuts growing. A few are 11yrs old, and 3 or 4 yrs old. I've been purchasing 5 seedlings from TACF the past two springs. All is well so far. South East Ohio near the Ohio River.

[@johnsangl]

Nice job!

[@skryptec]

Gotta be very careful. It was revealed that TACF was actually distributing mostly backcrossed hybrids and very few 100% Americans were ever actually handed out. If your trees are that old with no blight but you are in the natural range you most likely (and sadly) have hybrids. TACF and SUNY ESF have severe issues with communication, transparency and accuracy.

[@dhill7173]

I've been a member of TACF since 2015 and have been watching the development of this science as a "non-science" layman. Let me break it down as best I can to my knowledge.... In the process of developing the Darling 58, SUNY also developed the Darling 54. The Darling 54 was inferior and had bad growth. An error occurred in the lab and they labeled the Darling 54 as a Darling 58 and then reproduced it again and again in the lab. Now, out in the field and planted, the trees they thought were Darling 58 were doing horrible. The science people with TACF basically said, "Hey SUNY, this tree sucks and we can't use it to restore the American Chestnut Tree." At that point and after some testing, SUNY realized the mistake. TACF was upset with SUNY. Why? Because TACF and SUNY were hip deep in trying to get the Darling 58 deregulated by the government for distribution and now everyone has egg on their face. TACF then defunded SUNY which caused a big blowout and they are currently at odds (TACF and SUNY). Many nerds with hurt feelings. Where do we go from here? The Darling 58 is a good restoration tree. Both TACF and SUNY know it. I'm just waiting on the nerds to end their circular firing squad, get the Darling 58 deregulated, and start restoring it on my land. The end.

[@HiNinqi]

Can private citizens plant Darling 58s on their own land or greenhouses? Would the school sell cuttings?

[@dhill7173]

@@HiNinqi That was the plan, but I’m not sure what will happen now. The American Chestnut Foundation has a lot of good information on their website.

[@johnsangl]

Agree. Research can be messy & when it gets sloppy, it gets even messier. Still hopeful for the transgenic tree though!

[@GriffenNaif]

Wonderful breakdown. Thanks for doing all the hard work. I'm trying to find my land to do something like you do. I was hoping the back cross program could give us a higher American percentage... only to find out they screwed up their program on the 1st generation, too. I swear TACF is trying to destroy our goodwill. 22 min mark 25:45 TACF mistakes made kzbin.info/www/bejne/npuvo6qOo9mMoNksi=HkkyusopI79tMuA2 Keep up the good work. Good bless you.

[@johnsangl]

Thanks - all of this just shows how difficult clean scientific work is. Especially when the experiments take years/decades to evaluate results instead of days or weeks. it’s not intentional, it’s just a human quality.

[@knuckledraggingneanderthal720]

It is my opinion this isn't about science or restoration of the American Chestnut for the National TACF. It's about money, the National TACF wants exclusive rights to the Darling 58 tree and Partner with tree nurseries with licensing agreements to have the bureaucracy and administration of the National TACF continue having their salaries paid. ESF in Syracuse wants to freely give the trees to the public for restoration with no licensing agreement.

[@johnsangl]

Interesting take - the labeling error b/w Darling 54 & 58 is openly admitted by SUNY. That is a BIG deal.

[@goldenacres3269]

All the data on reduced viability of the homozygote and reduced vigor of the heterozygote GMO is for Darling 54. Ii the Darling 54 strain the OXO gene inserted into an important chestnut gene. The real Darling 58 does not have that flaw. Perhaps it will prove to be resistant, more vigorous, and viable as a homozygote. Time will tell. In the meantime, efforts are shifting to using a promoter to control the OXO gene that is expressed only in cankers.

[@johnsangl]

As far as we know, the D58 does not have the flaw. I haven’t seen data showing exactly how far D58 was studied before the inadvertent mix-up. I am aware that D58 has the gene in another location than D54. I would love it if D58 ended up being as good as previously hoped.

[@MySliceOfHeavenoutdoors]

Great information John, no American chestnut in my orchard. For the same reason as you. I put a lot of time and money into my orchard. I don't want to do all that and put in a tree that most likely will die in a few years.

[@johnsangl]

They become a part of the family and losing a tree to disease 5-7 years after watching it grow so well would be painful!

[@stndpenguin]

I picked up some chestnuts from a guy that has 4 surviving Americans left in his yard that he started 20 years ago... (4 of 20 survived) They have blight, but still manage to produce every year.. They'll probably die, but I dont see any harm in giving them a start and seeing what they can do in northern Michigan. Ive been planting dunstans for deer... Thanks to your channel I might start growing more for a side hustle down the road lol.

[@johnsangl]

Good luck growing & nice job with your American trees. Good luck with the side-hustle - it is fun & makes a little cash as well.

[@Kastanien-Wald]

You seem to grow many chestnut hybrid varieties. Are your trees grafted (on what base), cloned or offshoots? Where and how did you procure these varieties? Since you grow an orchard - what is your experience with seedlings? How do you control their genetic makeup, and do they bear the nut (quality) you anticipated?

[@loquat44-40]

I know he has germinated a lot of seeds that got to the seedling state prior to planting.

[@johnsangl]

I have about 450 trees with at least 29 known mother trees. I have three grafted trees just for experimentation. I’ve explained in prior videos my reasons for not growing grafted chestnuts - chief of which is the “sudden graft failure” problem that happens later in the Northeast colder climates.

[@johnsangl]

I’ve started about 350 from seed and the other 100 trees were 1 year old bareroot Chinese hybrid trees.

[@Kastanien-Wald]

Are those clones/offshoots? And where did you get them from? Your videos suggest a multitude of castanea molissima varieties I can't even google. @@johnsangl

[@404crew4]

Great information, it’s a setback and makes me wonder if I will be seeing any productive AC’s in my lifetime. I’m hopeful for my dunstans though.

[@johnsangl]

I know - it is a major bummer. Most of your Dunstan trees will be fine.

[@MrFarmboy151]

I think they learned a lot about transgenics on tree in this process, it’s a shame they had a mix up with the darling 54 and that in itself setback the project from the start

[@johnsangl]

They've definitely learned a lot. It will be some work sorting out what research goes with which tree though. Then they can proceed forward again.

[@loquat44-40]

It is a shame that it is not working out. But if they ever got an american chestnut to grow, there would be conflict with the chinese chestnut growers. Chestnut species are interfertile and so I suspect that states might start cutting down chinese chestnuts. A pure line of american chestnuts out in the wild would hybridize with asian chestnut pollen.

[@johnsangl]

I don’t have the same fears. Pure American chestnuts would dominate in terms of canopy height so I don’t think Chinese chestnuts would pose a threat long-term.

[@jim4371]

Very interesting research. One result has me puzzled: why were so many non-OXO trees surviving inoculation? According to the research, "Virginia Tech Kentland BRAG plot, September 2022. Higher mortality rate in OxO positive seedlings. 19 of 24 OxO negative survived vs 5 of 24 OxO positive survived." 24 trees is not a hugh sample size, but how did 19 out of 24 non-OXO trees survive? The reason you would inoculate control trees (the OXO negative ones) is to be assured your technique is sound and the pathogen virulent. There is something suspect in the methodology.

[@joniboulware1436]

What doesn't make sense it that the University is still planning to sell the seeds that do not have the correct genes.

[@johnsangl]

It is a little odd - it is highly researched though.

[@Packard3spdOD]

I think the explanation is that there are people not in science who had visions of sugarplums dancing in their heads, and they can't get that out of their heads.

[@jamessullivan9992]

I have a 20 year old american chestnut it doesent have the blight i smear mud on it once a year.

[@johnsangl]

That will work well until there is a canker 45ft up the tree - I hope it doesn't happen though! Sounds like you've been taking good care of the tree so far!

[@jdoboy6835]

Hummmm,, a 20 YO tree, & you have to smear mud on it? But NO VISIBLE CANKERS? What State? have you contacted the ACS,, so they can come see, & take some genetic samples? You just might have the Holy Grail. Is your tree the only one nearby? Does your tree produce a vast number of nuts? IF so,,, what are you doing with those nuts? Repropagating any? Please send John a picture of your 20 YO tree!!

[@johnmatherne6823]

Can’t wait for the logging update

[@johnsangl]

Can't wait to share it! It will be released Sunday afternoon. Logging is an entirely new experience for me.

[@johnmatherne6823]

@@johnsangl it is deer friendly and the new growth is what they love. Without the protection 🤣

[@nhmountains5683]

RIP Dr Powell.

[@johnsangl]

For sure - I still have faith they’ll find something.

[@davidsoloninka7742]

Do u think its better to plant chinese chestnut trees by simply planting the see or plant a one or two yr old seedling? Thx

[@johnsangl]

Bareroot Seedlings will get you a year or two headstart. Growing from seed is cheaper, but you pay with time. I've done both and they both have done well.

[@h.e.hazelhorst9838]

Oaks are blight resistant. Where do oaks get their resistance from?

[@johnsangl]

I'm not sure scientists know that answer.

[@Packard3spdOD]

TACF's backcross effort was initially based on the belief that just three genes controlled resistance. Now it appears that more than a dozen are likely involved, yet none of the identities of those are known as yet. Perhaps when we know the identity of at least some of those, it might be an idea to try to insert the oak version of that gene to see if some greater resistance might result, but at present we're in a position of not knowing the source of that resistance.

[@keyboard_g]

Its a shame it came to this. I would also like to have the research and testing continue to happen by multiple parties. I have been only planting native North American trees on my land. Have been waiting for this.

[@johnsangl]

I agree! Definitely a set-back!

[@robertpiontkowski2164]

So sad, planted American Chestnuts years ago n all got the blight n died !!

[@johnsangl]

Yep - that is why I don’t grow them currently.

[@Debacle83]

The AC taste much better than any other breed

[@johnsangl]

I don't have a super-sophisticated palate. I like both American & Chinese!

[@wcdeich4]

They discovered tall Asian Chestnut trees in the forests of China. Are you growing any of those?

[@johnsangl]

I have not heard or read this. Do you have a link where I can learn more?

[@wcdeich4]

Hi @@johnsangl I can't remember the video, but I spent some time googling it & I think they meant Castanea henryi. Unfortunately, while C. henryin is tall & more blight resistant than American chestnuts, it is less resistant to the blight than the common Chinese Chestnut & its chestnuts are even smaller than the American chestnuts :(

[@davidsoloninka7742]

A good friend of mine in the NY chapter said the TACF withdrew support because SUNY-ESF will not give TACF exclusive selling rights to their transgenic trees... follow the money when some thing doesnt make sense... I don't understand why TACF wholeheartedly supported the D58/D54 all the way to Federal approval and then withdrew because of further testing in Maine and Indiana. Why wouldnt they wait until their (TACF) independent testing was complete before jumping on board... my gut says something is not right... I smell a rat.

[@johnsangl]

I'm sure we don't have all the information. However, it is clear that the D58 tree was mixed up with the D54 and the data from Purdue is very damning to say the least. That doesn't mean Transgenic trees won't work, just not the line that made it to the test orchards.

[@sandych33ks1]

Thank you for doing this video. This is such BS...We need to bring back these American chestnut trees..

[@johnsangl]

Research is messy for sure. I remain hopeful the American Chestnut will rise from the ashes once more!

[@leoscheibelhut940]

Thank you for sharing this bad news. I guess I'll be planting crosses.

[@johnsangl]

I remain hopeful they'll find a more resistant American Tree, but I'm not convinced it is as near as I previously thought :(

[@yuritesticoff1141]

According to the modern woke 1/16 gene makeup is nothing, and us native Appalachians should shut up about our heritage. I say 1/16 is significant

[@johnsangl]

1/16 is def significant. But if it gets an “American” tree out there, I’ll take it for now.

[@StarsBarsAndCheese]

​@@johnsanglI'm holding out for a GMO tree.

[@randylochtefeld2806]

Shame on me for getting my hopes up.

[@johnsangl]

No shame in being optimistic!

[@1allennichols195]

Too bad everything you are referring to for problems is actually the D54, and not the D58. It is know that the OxO gene is on a different chromosome and is where it interferes with another gene in the D54, which may be the whole issue with growth and blight resistance. The actual D58 may have none of the issues that the D54 has. Yes, it it too bad there was a "switched at birth" issue that was very difficult to detect until there were trees big enough to flower and back cross. AND one issue that TACF is not covering is that SUNY-ESF has developed a second version called the DarWin, which uses a wound promotor so the OxO gene is only turned on when the tree is wounded. Only growing the D58 and testing its growth and resistance will tell how it does compared to the D54. One very positive aspect shown by the D54 which should be the same or better with the D58 is that when inoculated it only has around 1/3 as many cankers as a nonOXO sibling. That in itself is huge as even then the cankers that develop are not as viable as on the non-OxO trees, so produce very few spores to infect other trees. It is like the Covid dying out if everyone got a shot and then only 1/3 could get Covid, and then those that got it could not infect other people. www.esf.edu/chestnut/science-update/index.php

[@johnsangl]

I agree - it is too bad that the mix-up happened. It taints the whole project. I sincerely hope SUNY-ESF is able to find a tree that can successfully resist blight, pass those genes along to progeny and be able to survive in nature. I think we're all rooting for it to happen.

[@davidsoloninka7742]

Why don't u kill the grass/sod growing so close to your trees? I see that u mow it.

[@johnsangl]

I've addressed that a few times - in brief - I don't have the time to do everything to the perfect standard that I would like due to my professional practice and running a household with 4 teenagers. Also - while I'm not against herbicide, I try to limit it's use in the orchard. I don't have the time for mechanical(howing/etc) control.

[@savage22bolt32]

Constructive criticism, no disrespect; lose the background noise. The subject & your narration of it is great! The addition of distracting, monotonous & annoying music ruined the vid for me. I really wanted to learn about the chestnut trees, but couldn't take the background noise.

[@johnsangl]

To each their own - I appreciate the feedback.

[@jesserahimzadeh4298]

The GM chestnut process is so reductionist. Thinking of these complex biological beings as the sum of their genes will lead to unintended results like they always do.

[@johnsangl]

**Me cracking open thesaurus/encyclopedia/dictionary** - Isn't a Complex biological being the sum of it's genetic components?

[@jesserahimzadeh4298]

@@johnsangl No. Things work synergistically. The idea of holism, or holistic, is that things are greater than the sum of their parts. And when these GM trees get planted in wild settings, their genes will be spread to any remaining survivor American chestnuts. Therein lies the unintended results; no one knows what that outcome will be.

[@joeswheat]

So this was just poor research.

[@johnsangl]

Some great research mixed with some major sloppiness.

[@makedirtgood]

I will not buy GMO chestnuts. I can't support the American Chestnut Foundation if they support this research as the future for chestnut breeding.

[@johnsangl]

I will buy them and I would support them. I'm not fundamentally against GMO just for the sake of the popularity of saying "GMO is bad".

[@iamthewelcher]

Sucks

[@johnsangl]

Agree.