Will We Ever See Another Good MMORPG? - MadSeasonShow Reacts

[@madseasonshow]

Talking about the state of the current mmo industry, and also its future. Not sure if it'll be the next, but working on famous/infamous WoW player part 5 right now :D

[@jardson11]

Thanks for speaking up about this! I was searching this exactly same topic today and was wondering what are you thoughts about the actual state of the mmo market (:

[@chrisc7110]

Just wanted to thank you for getting me through some bad years where i was too sick to even play wow. Appreciate ya ol buddy

[@WebHead18]

Happy to see you're finding your stride. Really enjoying the content.

[@iller3]

just to confirm your experience: Yes...your friend putting their fist through something while enhancing in BDO....is Peak-BDO

[@jesse-got-dolphins-into-heaven]

i was always upset i missed out on starwars galaxies

[@TheNewLooter]

The guide culture / meta chasing is what ensures that no MMO will ever give the same sense of wonder as early WoW

[@Sam-cw4ed]

The problem is you can choose to ignore that in single player, I've checked wiki for bg3 and elden ring very little. But for MMOs you'll just get left behind because you're behind the curve/gearscore isn't good enough

[@TheNewLooter]

@@Sam-cw4ed yep. Back in the day, there was a lot of experimentation involved with basically everything, there were no public logs to check what the top dogs were using and the best guilds guarded their secrets. And nowadays, there are people whose job is making sure they have the meta tested and published by the time the content patch hits live.

[@sig5750]

It's happening with multiplayer games as well; Helldivers is having some growing pains because of some iffy balance changes, and the community is so full of vitriol over stuff being "shit" and "non-viable". All this in a lax PVE game with no leaderboards or elements of competition (if anything co-operation is encouraged!). Seeing people with the metaslave loadouts is disheartening, they put their desire to beat the game as effortlessly as possible over the fun shenanigans of playing with other people and pulling off missions with the wildest equipment.

[@jumpingman6612]

This is a problem, like it or not. But the attention problem is relevant, sadly.

[@krodmandoon3479]

Or all of Everquest. You could as 20 different people about the Sand Giants spawn pattern and get 20 different answers. Hell, I bet people aren't even 100% sure to this day.

[@J1mmy]

ok now THIS is epic, did not expect this!!! Much love dude ❤

[@iller3]

was way more comfortable to watch too (compared to asmons response)

[@oopomopoo]

J1mmy mvp. Tbh would be kinda nice for the anti- react youtubers like darkviper if you post stats a week or two out showing the algorithm stuff regarding overall viewers to your channel, subscribers, as well as possibly reach.

[@madseasonshow]

Great job on the video, I've been binging your channel

[@boosha12345]

j1mmy on madseason let's goooooo

[@J1mmy]

@@madseasonshow that's so sick, I appreciate it :D the fact that this video popped up in my sub box was a wild experience - just finished watching and loved hearing your thoughts on everything.

[@KorpseTE]

"If a piece content has a title as a question, the answer is no." D:

[@Nagria2112]

actually: no. many studies have shown its mostly 50/50

[@morthim]

@@Nagria2112 i too avoid doing my homework.

[@atraxian5881]

Not really, tho. In most game challenge videos, if the title is a question, most of the time the answer is "yes and see how I did it".

[@Russtick92]

Hearing Madseasonshow chuckle to himself whilst telling stories of the past really made me smile this evening.

[@Avatar_of_Chairness]

Aye it's quite endearing

[@Xuhtig]

What about this morning?

[@adamarmstrong5780]

Always does. He’s my guilty pleasure

[@japes2310]

That Steve Jobs quote really hit the nail on the head

[@belissarius2397]

The fact J1mmy is getting more and more popularity from even youtube big boys like asmon, and then legends like madseason is so nice to see

[@Techghoul23]

agreed, j1mmy is great

[@madseasonshow]

Great channel. I might have to check out runescape soon

[@Shineplasma]

@@madseasonshow OSRS is very different than other MMOs, especially WoW, but I've been fortunate to split my "Home base" between RS and WoW during the entirety of their lifespans now. OSRS has only gotten better over the years, the team at Jagex is doing amazing work. Polar opposite of my experience with Blizzard.

[@scoops2]

@@madseasonshowI feel like you’d love osrs. No mtx, no shortcuts, no handouts, great community. It’s focused on the journey not the destination like classic.

[@jessedavis5992]

Osrs should be called grind the game, with that being said, I do love me some osrs

[@austin.....]

My personal dream colab would be you and Josh Strife going at it together about the mmo industry, the takes you two would have together would be so great

[@madseasonshow]

Great channel, one of my favorites

[@lightsfury_nord]

Please try make it happen! It would be the epic Collab of the year

[@Nu_C-Jay]

No thanks! Josh Strife is making such lazy and bad videos! It’s just him talking in front of a camera and barely any editing LoL!

[@Jabarri74]

@@Nu_C-Jay Maybe if ya quit ya yapping and listen to him you might get his videos

[@lpcmark]

Old-school Runescape literally does everything right that all these other MMOs do wrong. When you play OSRS read all of the dialog in quests and when you finally infiltrate the penguin HQ, you will understand.

[@bearrington2024]

Just so you know the "I told you so" has yet to feel old. Even the like 8m version used this time

[@Scitch-et4vk]

The steve jobs quote ! Holy shit he summed up the entire games industry right now

[@sarysa]

And, ironically, the cell phone industry...aka the modern poster child of stagnation.

[@MoonMage67]

he summed up all industries

[@LordJaroh]

Yup, because fooling people into buying stuff is more cost effective, especially in the shareholder-driven short-term, than actually making stuff good to get long-term success.

[@TowerWatchTV]

And ironically his own company faced the same consequences, literally proving he was right. Mad.

[@SporkyMcFly]

​@@TowerWatchTV If he were to come alive for a day he would kill himself after seeing what his company has become.

[@shampp5411]

Neverwinter's system for creating your own instance is a space that studios should be playing in. It was so fun to explore different dungeons that people had created with their own stories and themes. Someone needs to really perfect that and let the community run wild with it.

[@mancamiatipoola]

I hear ya. I have played that game a long time ago and i loved the interesting dungeon design people were making. User generated content is a great way to improve the longevity of a game, but i think that it is more condusive to single player games because of the environment. I feel like MMO devs are also afraid of it because that would take control away from them and put it into the player's hands. Then there is the matter of how to place user generated content into the world. MMOs that have experimented with player homes for instance, usually just have a teleporter or a menu item to send the player to that home. The space does not exist in the world itself, only on a server slot. This is a bad thing because only the player and his frends can see it. For user content to make an impact, devs would have to reserve actual space in the world for users to build houses, castles, statues, parks and so on. Perhaps a system based on a creative competition so you can have some truly nice content made by talented players added to the world. That would be truly magnificent and would certainly improve a game by allowing its cities, dungeons and even pvp content to evolve naturally. But i think most AAA corpos wont find there is any money to be made from that so they will stick to in game shops... :(

[@Eldrek-]

That Steve Jobs clip with the WoW shop in the background went hard. Make that a short

[@miketaddio8342]

It's the whole "Money Ball" thing. Ever since analytics took over pro sports, it's the whole thing where a whole bunch of scientists, that have zero experience in the thing they're analyzing, end up making the most consequential decisions, and after sports, it slowly leaked into every other thing that was working just fine...

[@seanwilliams7655]

I think Mad was right about the basics. MMOs 20 years ago functioned like a sort of social media. It was a novel experience to exist in this shared online space with a bunch of other people. Now it's pretty common. And that's kind of the biggest issue MMOs face. Also, pretty much everything they did well is done as well or better in something else now. You want single player exploration? Skyrim. You want PvP? Overwatch. You want to socialize? Social media. Pretty much the only thing WoW does better than other genres at this point is large scale PvE raids. In addition to this, the game simply cost so much to make and run. If these games could somehow be run by A or AA developers, then they'd probably be happy with a player count around 200-400k. But most AAA studios aren't going to like that.

[@OrgusDin]

@@seanwilliams7655 The money thing is the biggest issue, you aren't going to get handed the amount you need to dev an MMO anymore, you'd need one guy or a group that is willing to fund the game and not care if it is just throwing money into a pit.

[@seanwilliams7655]

@@OrgusDin you could possibly get around that by raising the sub fee. If you only have k players, but they're paying $30/month, maybe it's worth it then. But I still think the biggest issue is simply the amount of time that needs to be invested into the game to build the community people seem to want. I don't think you're going to have millions of people in 2024 who want to spend 20+ hours a week playing one game.

[@OrgusDin]

@@seanwilliams7655 You don't really need millions, I've had a great time on servers for games with only a couple hundred to thousands of people. It depends on what kind of game it is though and how its systems work, if you need 40 people to raid vs. 5 it's a big deal to have a bigger community etc. I really fear the bot zerg most personally, unless it incorporates LLMs somehow in which case you could have realistic synthetic players in the mix like GW1 had henchmen to hire. It's all hypothetical game specific though.

[@seanwilliams7655]

@@OrgusDin you don't need millions as a player, but you need enough for it to be profitable for whoever is making it. That's the issue.

[@DanielMoore3d]

Been working in the video game industry for almost 13 years now. It has its ups and downs just like any profession. Sometimes I wish i was mowing lawns instead of working in game dev, and sometimes I fall in love with working on games all over again. It depends on the project and the team. I've worked on MMO's before (including wow), but I've never got in at the start. I enjoy working in MMO's but I'd love to be there at the start for all the incredibly fun brainstorming and white boxing. I keep faith there will be another mmo that has the same fun as WoW when it first launched, but its going to take a really passionate indie team. Building it over a long period of time with lots of community feedback.

[@jon4715]

I thought original release The Old Republic was good. Hutt ball as a bounty hunter was incredibly satisfying.

[@thearmourboy3254]

It was ok but its problem was the same as so many others, it wasn't that different from WoW and its combat and end game wasn't as good.

[@OrgusDin]

The best part of The Old Republic was sending Jedi padawans to face Bengal Morr with sticks resembling lightsabers and not really caring if it works out or not.

[@ClausRow]

THESE ARE THE RULES OF HUT BALLLLL!

[@Masterho310]

At this point, given how much the gaming industry has changed for the worst in the last decade. Probably not. Everything now is live service games. MMOs are complicated and expensive to make. Easier to just make a mobile game with micro transactions and you can make more money much safer than trying to do an MMO in current year.

[@jjd-lx5vr]

Sadly have to agree with you. When iPhones were new cell phone games were fun, now its just pure pay to win with the microtransactions. I don't even play cell phone games anymore. I don't think an MMO that starts with microtransactions will be successful long term.

[@iller3]

Well it's really about Netcode and "data security" at this point. Small teams of indie folks can scramble together some really viral games in no time at all thanks to the advancement we've seen in engines and authoring Tools. But their access to all the networking related tech and NPC A.I. scripting is still no better than it was 30 years back. (this is probably due to too much consolidation by companies like Microsoft, Oracle, Google, Amazon, etc...)

[@seanwilliams7655]

@@jjd-lx5vr I can't find any decent mobile games for my kid to play anymore. Even just a few years ago, it was free to play, then play $5 or so to not see adds. Now, it seems like everything is a subscripton.

[@mikeclarke3990]

Also they need to be playable on console now to be financially viable. PC players now riot if their game is not available on STEAM (Idiots imo) and most MMORPG had their own launchers so were not giving lord Gaben a 30% cut.

[@Kelso540]

Man, Runescape 1 back in 2001 was my introduction to MMO's. I still remember mining coal in the Barbarian Village and grinding steel shortswords to vendor off. ...or finally getting the ability to use the desert entrance shortcut once I finished the quest. ...or running naked through the wilderness to go explore and getting smoked lmao. ...or finally learning how to use colored text and selling lobsters in the marketplace. Good memories, man.

[@warlock356]

I find Madseason’s reaction videos really encouraging. It kind of reminds me of how academics respond to each other’s papers. With enough effort put into properly contextualizing the original video, and offering your own unique response, these videos can feel more like a dialogue between experts than just low effort rip offs. Good job dude. Really enjoying all the stuff you’ve been putting out.

[@mheuuj]

I honestly disagree that every quest should have major meaning or lore implications. I think killing 20 goblins and gathering 6 bear asses is part of knowing your place in the massive world. And that is why the rare moment you do actually get a major lore type quest, it feels that much more special. We shouldn't get the "Thank you for saving Azeroth once more, heroes!"-esque shoulder patting every other quest.

[@java7583]

The number of videos you've put out recently is wild, I never minded the time between uploads but it's neat to have so much new stuff at once!

[@toph_toff974]

jesus christ that forum post at 17:11 is devastating... I'm glad I was always single and alone when playing.

[@adamarmstrong5780]

Dude I read your comment as soon as that post came up on the video….god damn that’s brutal and sad.

[@psvm_]

J1mmy AND MadSeasonShow, my two favourite things together!

[@rathenn6959]

Man I can't wait for the next WoW but honestly it was just the golden era where forums and social media wasn't all there to capture every detail and everything had a defined solution already found and catalogued. It had that sense of exploration and uncertainty - mystery and novelty rather than wiki'ing. God I miss old WoW and Guild Wars...

[@RedRamDRA]

Main issue with MMOs (and MOBAs) is they compete not for 10 or 20 hours of time - they compete with years invested versus the years already invested in the other MMO/MOBA. That's why single player games, or co-op games such as Divinity or Baldur's Gate 3 are much more likely to be made and thrive.

[@mancamiatipoola]

Yes, good point. Many multiplayer games compete for player bases, but i am seeing a resurgence of 4 player coop games now. How many people begged Bethesda to add a coop game mode to Skyrim or FO3 or 4? And how many other great open world RPGs could have benefited from a 4 player coop? Yes it is a tech challenge because you have to provide servers and people, but still easier to do than a MMO. I feel like devs are stating to listen and are putting coop modes in their single player games more and more. I hope this trend takes off and we will see more games with good stories, but also the ability to play with a few frends to share the experience with them. Right now i convinced a good frend of mine to play BG3 and we are having a blast. It was a great decision to include the coop mode in the game.

[@RedRamDRA]

@@mancamiatipoola Yup... Divinity and BG3 are some of the best fun to have with friends - I definitely hope more such games will come!

[@jchinckley]

That photo of Boogie at 7:14 is the best one of him I think I've ever seen.

[@jchinckley]

Long live the Dewmaster! Ho!! Spurmberp! Sell me some of your wares!

[@colewrathman4472]

The most fun I had at max level in vanilla was 5 mans on my mage. During WotLK and Cata, I was a pally tank and had fun with the 5 mans. In other xpacs, once I got to max was level, I would level alts, help guildies level and run guild events.

[@cps3119]

"I know I can input my credit card solo to level from 1 - 70. That's the best way to play video games in my opinion. I'm such a fan of MMOs that I'll not only pay $15 a month to play them, I'll pay hundreds more to NOT play them. Because you know, I love them SO much." Ooof that hit SO hard bro. 100% truth right there. You summed up in a few sentences EVERYTHING that is wrong with the genre today. Appreciate your content as always.

[@boot-strapper]

old school EQ leveling was great. it took people 12-24 months of regular play to get max level. And the majority of players never reached max level. I want that in the next big mmo.

[@MurakamiTenshi]

I started with Korean grinders in the early 00s, and I hope the never repeat those same mistakes made. Long grind time need to be masked with short term gains, otherwise people will get bored and quit halfway.

[@boot-strapper]

@@MurakamiTenshi luckily EQ didn’t feel that grindy imo. The grouping and combat mechanics loop was fun.

[@ryuno2097]

I don't think today's audience will want that long grind to max level anymore. People have lost patience in taking the time to enjoy the game and just want instant gratification. Sure there are players who don't mind the slow pace but sadly these players are a small portion of the bigger playerbase (well... somewhat big.. it ain't as big as back in the 2000s-2010s).

[@EB-bl6cc]

Agreed. I think end-game content is awesome but damn it should really be about the journey too. I don't want to have to level to max before I get to have fun

[@jeremywright9511]

@@ryuno2097 Black Desert has a big playerbase even though you can grind for a thousand hours and barely move forward.

[@Ellthom]

Quick answer: No WoW was the genres peak only because it captured the zeitgeist of the time, being in the right place at the right time. MMO's for me at the time served not only as a game but a social media platform before places like discord or twitter or facebook took off. the idea was in WoW you were a social community, that social aspect of MMO's no longer exists due to outside sources of socialising, for an MMO to be popular again you really need to capture something new, or make something old new, not remake something that was already done. WoW did a really good job at ripping off other MMO and making it accessible and easy and navigable. I think MMO's have fallen into that RTS phase of history, and sure RTS can still be done and made but they'll never be as popular, and thats the same with MMO's. At least thats my 2 cents. I do think there are also so many other factors. such as getting old, societal changes, and just new fads in the gaming sphere.

[@muffinman5958]

I really dont think there will be another MASSIVE MMORPG for the simple reason that the main thing that brought people to the old mmos was the fact that everything was undiscovered and a little scuffed, look at vanilla wow and why it was unironically so good for a new player even in 2020. Tons to discover things were kinda scuffed.

[@Marconius6]

If we do get a new big MMO, if we even call it that, it'll be very different from WoW or any of the ones we'd currently think of. The same happened to other genres too: no one makes Quake-styles arena shooters anymore, but instead we have big war games like Battlefield, or battle royales, or PvE or hero shooters. No one really makes Starcraft style RTS games either (hell, even Warcraft 3 was already a departure from that), but we do have MOBAs instead, or more rapid tactical games without base building. So whatever the next big MMO is, I'd expect that level of difference in gameplay there too.

[@Dangerpurple]

I think it's fair to recognize that "flash in the pan" for an MMO means under 5 year lifespan. Shadowbane for instance ran from 2003 to 2009. It was a great fun game, with guild made castles and conflicts, harsh intense PVP with loot dropping, and a HUGE number of classes and races, some of which even had big modification to your gameplay, like the flying races, centaur, and even minotaurs which got larger with their strength. But a lot of people never heard of it, and because it's not STILL running it is not considered a great classic mmo. Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning as well ran for 5 years, but people considered it a failure because it shut down. WildStar Also lasted 4 years, I personally loved it and played it a ton. TERA lasted 10 years and people claim it was a failure because it shut down Generally, a single player game with a linear story loses 90% of it's playerbase on the metrics in the first month, because people beat the game and move on. But no one judges them by that metric. For some reason an mmo has to basically be online forever to be considered a success. The genre is not dying imo, there are millions and millions of MMO players. Lost Ark STILL has 75,545 people online via steam right now. Sorry for going on a tangent 44 seconds into the video, but I just really hate that framing and think it's inaccurate.

[@Dangerpurple]

Yeah, using WaR as an example, "it flatlines' yeah, after 5 years. People consider an MMO dead and a failure even if it lives for 5 years. The standards are so silly. We have many mmo's coming out or in development RIGHT NOW as well.

[@RonOnTheWay]

The community in shadowbane was part of the reason it failed. "We ran those noobs off the server, yeah!!!" a few too many times.

[@KEHEffC]

Oh shit someone else who used to play Shadowbane! I loved that game - I was still a young teen when I was playing it but had a blast as a thief stealing directly from other players inventories. The game does actually still have a few hundred people who play it, but it's on a decent sized private server. I tried the server out and had a good time leveling a sentinel, but sadly some of the 40+ year olds playing the game were dropping slurs in discord like they were playing CoD on Xbox 360 in 2011. I definitely used to be that toxic, but nowadays there's more fun and inventive ways to insult someone other than just calling them a slur. I've been wanting to see Josh Strife Hayes make a video on Shadowbane, but I think it was too niche as a PvP MMO for him to be able to get enough good content to make a video out of it. I'll never forget the years I spent in Shadowbane - it helped shape me into the MMO player that I am today.

[@Dangerpurple]

@@Dirtnose Exactly, how many years and 1000s of hours does a game need to provide to be considered a success? I am willing to bed 1000 fps games have launched in the last 5 years, and you might be able to name 10 of them if you sat and thought about it. A F2P mmo with 5-10k population is IMO thriving, especially if the scope is not that insanely high and the upkeep is cheap.

[@Dangerpurple]

@@KEHEffC It seems that dark ages of camelot private server is one of the few very professional and open community p-servers, I've had no urge to jump into shadowbane as I'm sure it must be all old vets who oust non veteran players quickly with the games unforgiving pvp mechanics. Though, as someone who used to run a protection racket for noobies who wanted to farm the well, and then just...killed them all and looted the gold they farmed me over the course of 3-4 hours, I can't claim to be innocent LOL

[@kozmo7]

Love how you used the reaction as a jumping off point to just speak about things dude. It’s a great addition to what you offer on your channel as I know you’ve said these are easier and quicker to make unless I’m misunderstanding something. Good stuff dude

[@DungeonForgeGaming]

You are correct, it takes the perfect amount of open time, and sadly for most the world we are all fighting for the next day under the current workings of the world. I hope it changes, but one can only hope.

[@bartoffer]

You can't meaningfully figure out why MMOs took off as much as they did without looking at the interest rate and cost of borrowing. I really wish people would like... learn about how capital works, lol. So when a company wants to make a game, it's really rare that all the money is there up-front to do it. Sure, if you're public, you can try to sell shares or go public and list an IPO, but that really isn't a strategy that works if your product is something that could bomb. So you borrow from investors, which tends to mean investment firms. Even if you're already a big, established company with titles under the belt. Which is a lot easier to do when the interest rate is nearly 0% than when it's over 5%. People wonder why games take Epic store exclusivity when "they could make so much more money if they sold on steam" - as if needing capital infusion mid-development is just this thing that never happens. MTX, weird exclusivity deals, layoffs - they're all going to continue to grow in prominence, because the cost of servicing an already-ridiculous amount of debt shot up to a ridiculous rate. Which compounds. This cycle tends to be what we call a 'bubble,' but games present an interesting thing: effectively infinite scalability. You can make a sparklehorse for almost nothing, and it costs you the same to sell 10 as it does 10M. The bubble can bloat to an insane, unique degree because the consumer will spend money on something that effectively exists outside of most working models of the relationship between goods and labor.

[@zombodyhelp6992]

So Happy you're posting and experimenting at the rate you're publishing. So far everything you've published I support all the way! Keep having fun and doing what feels right for you. You don't miss!

[@cas6382]

I think you pretty much nailed it with everything you said and if we ever get another massive MMO like early WoW it will be sandbox. I think it won't be for another like 10-15 years at least and will be the result of another big tech boom plus gamers aging.

[@emikke]

We will see another mmorpg. But the success of Wow had to do with mass unemployment among young people.

[@Sanoskesagara]

The way you drew your lil helm makes it look like an anvil kinda. Neat.

[@Xhotic]

J1mmy once again showing out for the MMORPG community, mans is a OSRS Legend and now moving his name throughout the ranks of the MMO playing field.... the true G.O.A.T for MMO players

[@madseasonshow]

Great channel, highly recommend

[@zaatas]

Everquest is what laid the groundwork for WoW's success. It was the game that really proved there was a market for that type of game, and where the game developers of WoW got a lot of inspiration for their own game design. Having played both myself, classic WoW is basically a "casual" version of Everquest, but with much improved gameplay and graphics. The big difference being that Everquest forced most classes to at least group with one other person to navigate the game world and level up after they got of the noobie levels, where in WoW the leveling process can be solo`d by any class. Everquest also had harsher rules around dying and corpse retrieval. Essentially they took the Everquest formula, and tweaked it enough to appeal to a broader audience, while adding enough to keep the veteran MMO players happy. You hit on the point that these early MMO games were essentially like social media platforms. I'd also add that gaming online back then was also just hitting mainstream levels of popularity. It was a very special moment in time when WoW started to take off, and gaming culture has changed a lot. This means another game hitting the same success levels of WoW comparatively and surpassing it highly unlikely. It's very hard to recapture the novelty of playing multiplayer games for the first time. It's basically baked into the cake now, and you need something more than "its fun to play with friends". I think Jimmy is right, any future successful MMOs will need to break up the traditional leveling up on mobs and quests type of gameplay, and introduce other systems to advance in the game world. In my own opinion, which is not the normal one I imagine, I would like a MMO that leaned more into the needing of others to progress. I personally dislike questing with other people in WoW, because only a select few quests really need a second player, and you end up wasting a lot of time lining up and completing quest objectives. But a game world where the difficulty level encouraged at least one other player would hit differently. I think a game that perfected a 2 to 3 player mode of gameplay that wasn't a form of PVP, would be amazing. 2 to 3 players to tackle the static world, and instanced dungeons/raids that required more players.

[@illeagle666]

Madseason, could you do a "lore to sleep to" series? :)

[@TheFoodieCutie]

New World is actually good especially since they released Aeternium. I look forward to playing it. The star Citizen story is just out of control. I cannot believe they still have not delivered. 12 years and 700 million dollars and no game? 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@unrighteous8745]

5:25 These series' that people used to cherish just seemed to have become so disconnected." (long pause on Street Fighter V) This is a very confusing reference. SFV was received really poorly back in 2016 (8 years ago); however, Street Fighter 6 launched in 2023 and was perhaps the greatest fighting game launch ever. Not criticizing your point (I agree), just a very odd visual example for that point.

[@420OngBak]

People weren't exactly hyped about modern controls if we're being honest. But yeah SF6 is sick

[@davidp2391]

The answer is no. The gaming world has been monetized to death. We will never be able to play games the way we did 15-20 years ago

[@Hiphoppapotamuss]

I resent that you are right.

[@ChessJew]

MORE MADSEASON?! HUZZAH!

[@FilianClipperSnacker]

Oh man, what a treat. J1mmy happens to be one of my favourite creators, he's like the MadSeasonShow of OSRS - his love for the game never seems to burn out.

[@Ronbotnik]

after experiencing so many failed MMO followups its hard to still have hope. i can completely see why Blizzard doesnt want to make a WoW2. flash in the pan is the perfect way to describe modern MMOs

[@bernhardkruder4001]

You are so right about the social media „comparison“. I have 2 friends from different EU-countries and they met in molten core. They are a pair for 15 years now. She moved here and they are still married.

[@Reldonator]

This will be my 4th time watching j1mmys video. Original, asmons react, j1mmys react to asmons react, now this XD

[@tobi1560]

Yt be like: he will watch anything at this point

[@Reldonator]

@@tobi1560 nah I've followed j1mmy Asmon and MadSeason for years, it has just been a massive crossover. Also Josh Strife Hayes on the second monitor

[@rafaelszczygielski1296]

2000's was the golden age of gaming for sure... you had the build up to wow, warcraft, warcraft 2, warcraft 3, Lan parties at internet cafes, Laptops and Computers where just getting affordable and more available.

[@DjZephy]

People seem to think that if a game isn't the #1 viewed game on twitch, with the most subscribers of any mmo of all time, and the number of subscribers isn't continuously increasing and NEVER decreasing, then it must be a complete failure.... It's completely irrational.

[@iller3]

"people" ? I think you mean Investors. This is a problem affecting the entire world right now, shareholders aren't "happy" with stuff merely making "a profit" anymore. They are demanding huge returns and when they don't get them they short the company out of existence

[@CoreyAllgood]

I comment very infrequently, but I wanted to say thanks for really coming back. I think we both miss WoW the way that it was, but your videos are amazing to listen to while I clean my space or get work done. Love you, mystery monotone man.

[@madseasonshow]

Thanks for watching! It's good to be back

[@radandpaisley]

I watched this when J1mmy posted it. I watched when Asmon reacted. What's once more 'round the sun, eh lads?

[@MaitreMechant]

have you watched j1mmy reacting to asmon reacting to his vid ? xd

[@Nu_C-Jay]

Holy crap you are dropping so many videos and at the same time keeping the quality!🎉🎉 Wow that’s something you don’t see anymore on KZbin .

[@mightylink65]

No one wants to spend more than 2 years making a game anymore... publishers are now pushing too hard to get an instant return they don't allow any developers to take their time.

[@timothykahil8007]

I don't think we will ever see anything like Classic (or better) ever again, the gaming industry is too far gone, sold out. Then kids these days are more interested in quick dopamine release as you said.

[@matshepherd118]

After EverQuest, WoW was a good little sister MMO, but it was over.

[@michaelfontana4689]

30:31 was a huge blackpill for me about the state of the player base. I never agreed with the argument that these big corporate companies are dumb, "Why can't they get back to good game design? Don't they see how bad this is?" They know exactly what they are doing.

[@mk_gamíng0609]

Before I watch the video just my thoughts I think WOW and the MMOS of that time, came out at a perfect time, but now for the younger generations MMOs are not what they seek and to the already existing fanbase, most people no longer have the time to really commit.

[@LordMuzhy]

This is tough to hear as a 35 year old but you’re absolutely correct. Even if WoW 2 or the perfect MMO came out I wouldn’t be able to sink the same amount of time I did back during the vanilla-WotLK era 😔

[@CarnageO31]

Honestly, I just like hearing MadSeason laugh.

[@KSabot]

In regards to the toner heads clip, it's ultimately the shareholders that are the root cause of these corporatization problems in the AAA industry, their demands for forever increasing dividends necessitate ever shorter sighted decisions such as that toner head problem Jobs explains. Publicly traded companies is the cancer.

[@christianolsen8885]

I 1000% agree, the leveling experience is what hooked me to wow back in 2007, 95% of my time played on that game was leveling characters. I think if a modern MMO is to really succeed, it would be from an epic leveling experience.

[@soccergang3169]

I absolutely hated leveling. I quit so many characters because it got boring. Leveling to me is just a waste of time. Why do I need to level AND get gear. Just put me in and let me get my gear and play the game. I remember getting my first 60 in like early 2005 and I said, "FINALLY I CAN PLAY THE GAME! Im not killing another mob or doing a stupid quest again and then I removed every quest from my log. (which was dumb cause i had to gey some again to attune for raids).

[@miguelcondadoolivar5149]

The issue is that wouldn't fly in the current age. Levelling guides would immediately take over and a huge chunk of the playerbase would rush through the whole experience, hungrily demanding more content. Exploration and wonder can no longer survive in MMOs, it had been optimized out of the picture.

[@MSDGAMEZ]

Why is my GF watching this channel all the time?

[@steelyium]

That smooth, smoothhh voice.

[@iller3]

Good editing and perfect pacing for the most part. It's not the most riveting content but puts one in a very cozy comfort zone

[@nachomanrandy]

Because you are getting cucked

[@Mr.Reality]

Cuz he was a rank 14 chad in wow. I would ban this channel on your girls phone, tv if you wanna keep her

[@IamMrSimQn]

In the 48:48 segment you're basically describing osrs. The whole game is about your leveling journey and it's why so many love it

[@GoobertownHobbies]

This is my favorite "react" video that I've ever watched. Always a pleasure 🙂

[@jeffmazziotta]

i think these companies need to somehow grab the massive numbers of players who used to play MMO's who left the genre. Of course, grabbing the new never before played crowds is big but there are many many many folks that are now feeling nostalgic for those classic wow days- people like myself that played wow from 2004-2008 then left for some reason or another and have never gone back to the genre since. Of course I think the success of Classic WoW seems to echo this thought, but this is just grabbing those who would literally replay the exact game again. A new game that can capture that feeling and experience again (if its even possible) has a chance to find a strong core audience, somehow this game will also need to be the same one that can capture the NEW audience..... finding this magic sweet spot is going to be the challenge. grab the folks that abandoned the genre but have nostalgia for it, build enough buzz to intrigue new interest by "never playeds" and have good enough gameplay to hook a decent percentage of those never playeds to stay along with the core nostalgia folks.

[@caerdwyn7467]

Almost nobody has time for more than one. MMOs also have huge "sunk cost" progression-protection psychology. MMOs take longer and cost more to develop because of the extreme need for content and balancing. There just isn't room in the market for lots of AAA-scale MMOs, and by now most major publishers have figured that out.

[@dredoctor8271]

I have so much to say, my brain is just pure emotion and wants to type this entire book on what I've learned about the genre. Thanks J1mmy and MadSeasonShow for laying out the topics for me. The Graph with all the history of MMO games: 1991 - 2011. I tried to find my second favorite MMO's: Flyff and maplestory. What a time that was, grinding and grinding.....

[@lallie338]

Plunderstorm was honestly pretty well received from the community. Some treated it as a grind cause they didn't like it for cosmetics, some just don't like battle royals, PvPers liked it for the new pvp mode, even if its not honor or conquest related, and for others it was a change of pace or something that was rather short and easy to jump into for something to do for a little bit while getting some rewards. So a mixed bag, but overall was liked since when it shut down, overall people wanted it to stay and not feel like a FOMO thing.

[@tottorookokkoroo5318]

Blunderstorm is nothing like wow really, its more like completely seperate game just using bunch of wows assets.

[@Spectacular66]

Yeah, WoW was my first MMO back in 2006. It had a great leveling experience, as slow as it seemed- but it forced you to take your time and explore to your heart's content. You were forced to group with others to get some things done but at the same time you built up companionships that could take you further as time went on. This was how I was able to join my first raid guild along with others on my journeys.

[@ianvincent1762]

Hey Mad! Love your content. I’ve played vanilla/classic which turned into retail. I came back for classic and during WOTLK classic went back and gave retail a try during all three of BFA and Shadowlands and DF. I can honestly say that Dragon Flight has the best gameplay of all the past three expansions. I hope that The War Within can keep the pace going and I also hope that you’ll give retail a chance again. As a “classic andy” give it a try. Lok’tar Ogar!!!

[@xXAnimefreak93Xx]

Can we take a moment to appreciate that THIS is how you make a REACTION video?! You actually elaborate on certain topics, take time to properly articulate and make additional points that ADD to the original video. Not like all thes reaction videos of ppl just watching laughing and saying nothing !

[@thefacelessone74]

If only I knew at the time those were the best of times. ..... Counterstrike, Everquest, Command and COnquer Renegade (#1 most unknown game ever made ahead of its time) , Planetside, and then the bike ride to gamestop at 7am november 24th 2004... changed everything

[@Ed_G_Boise]

It hurts thinking back to how amazing it was seeing a geared out max level character during vanilla/BC/WOTLK 😓

[@VinceRadley]

I absolutely cherished your monotonous voice but I am not gonna lie: it feels good to hear you having some genuine laughter and higher pitch. There has been some smoothening positive vibes to your latest videos recently that give an overwhelming feeling that you are enjoying yourself at the moment. I wish you the very best and hope it will last.

[@Claptrapin]

All this madseason content makes me happy 😊

[@Jmhgddsert54377]

The thing about questing being boring is that there are so many one off quests. Gather this, kill this person and move on. For me, some of the most fun quests were the chains. WoW had some really fun and some epic quest chains, just not a lot of them, unfortunately. There was the "Missing Diplomat" chain, "Legend of Stalvan", and who could forget the chain to attune for Onyxia's lair. There will never be a more epic chain than Scarab Lord, but that was meant to be hard and fun. Yes, sometimes the chains get tedious, but they can be much more immersive and interesting as they build toward the conclusion. As opposed to, "thanks for killing some wolves, now go away". One off quests are fine as a mix in, but IMO a new MMO needs to have more chain quests to keep things interesting.

[@andrewbunch2394]

I really like your reaction style videos because they are not like other reactions, where they just chime in at various points - you actually expand on stuff by inserting other videos and clips, so it is overall an edited and curated video while giving due and proper credit to the original creator

[@DaBomb970]

Quick note, the first battle royale game was not H1Z1. The earliest i know of is the PlayerUnknown mod for Arma 3, which was later fully developed into what is now PUBG.

[@DarksLive2D]

Love when my two favorite MMO video essay creators find each other.

[@miiniipa]

Even when your videos are about things that make me sad, like the slow burning death of mmos due to the passage of time, your humor and commentary never fail to make me smile or laugh and feel better about humanity knowing there are like-minded individuals out there. Thank you Mads.

[@MSDGAMEZ]

I started playing WOW when BFA launched. My favorite part of WOW since is thr leveling process. It was amazing. Then when i finished, i just got bored. The journey was more fulfilling to me than the destination.

[@fiddlinfool1]

I have never heard Mad laugh before. This made sticking with the entirety of the video completely worth it.

[@clueless4085]

Glad you're back to regular content, Mads (: I've been watching since pre classic wow and can't express how much I enjoy your work.

[@Machman1123]

To your point about the next big MMO and OTK's success with player driven content: that event was a success for bringing in viewers more so than players. The amount of people who have the time and interest to actively participate in something like that by joining the platform it's hosted on and being an active participant seems much lower than number willing to view the event on twitch as a passive participant.

[@aresgodofwar7401]

You missed the most important thing that started this whole micro transaction/loot box situation. Bethesda with the horse armor. I will never stop talking about it, that was the starting point when gaming went from escapism's to money machines.

[@adamdevereaux2713]

Main MMO issue is player mentality. If you always utilize shortcuts (fast travel, party finder, buy gear from market instead of grindin’ to craft, etc.) you’ll lose opportunities to connect and be invested. If you only look to other players to help you craft your play experience, and not try to find ways to incorporate your own ideas for enjoyment, you’ll lose opportunities to connect and be invested. If you don’t engage in social aspects (chat, mini games, events), then you lose opportunities to connect and be invested. It won’t feel immersive and expansive, if you never immerse yourself or try to expand your experience.

[@PawelCizi]

The Steve Jobs bit was so good. Madseason you are taking thia react format in a new and fun direction. I love this style of react.

[@endlessmatt]

Talking about Sandbox MMOs, one new game not really mentioned in the discussion is Pax Dei. Go back a few weeks ago and look at Asmon's Beta experience. He got literally hundreds of his viewers to go into his world and build him a gigantic castle over the 4 or 5 days of the beta. Like epic level castle. Some of the players were real world architects that oversaw the construction design. The combat, progression, and PVP systems are not really there yet, but seeing a bunch of people collectively working together to build a structure like that might be where this genre needs to go. Imagine building your own Stormwind, and the other players built that city, and they are your vendors with little shops and crafting hubs where you can get things made to order. It was impressive to say the least. If they can get the other aspects of the game up to where the building component is at, I think it could be great.

[@DataCollaborate]

Few Recommendations: - Lord of the Rings Online (By far one of the best) - Final Fantasy Online - Guildwars 2 - Rift - New World - (Runes of Magic) Maybe Riot MMO in 2029 early access The Classic MMO is gonna dying... All the good MMO Ideas around 2008-2015 just couldn't compete to the Big 5 overall. But being open minded to new games and see if there's something really fun. Theres always Runner Ups and good ideas poppin up.

[@AngryMochi]

I like the high effort react format that you've stumbled on. It's cool that there is some editing and that it is loosely scripted but preserves feeling of being part of a conversation that is the best part of react content. I'm weary of most react channels, I dislike the fact that it can be created with such little effort and that the commentary of the reactor is typically a first impression. It's nice to let an idea cook for a little bit before sharing it. This is good stuff, MadSeason. Keep it up. :)

[@pokemon1666]

OSRS a game with 23 skills has one skill dedicated to simply killing mobs, while others call it "quests" lmao.

[@stormrider8286]

You are doing an awesome job and I am so happy you're back. Keep up the good work.

[@PandaWolf525]

I remember there was a plan for a Magic the Gathering MMO and was so excited. Then nothing for years. Then when they said anything they were not going to do it because they couldn’t figure out how to do spells and combat in the game. I was so bummed because I would have loved to see the game play as its own world in the MTG multiverse or have us be planeswalkers and able to hop around from plane to plane as different zones/ expansions. So much possibilities. But excuses I still don’t understand. Really wanted to be a beast master and just summon all those beasts to fight with.

[@x0318]

I just got back into OSRS and I can't really speak for RS3 since I abandoned that ship a long time ago, and part of it is the nostalgia, yes, but it's just nice to play something you know a lot of heart and soul went into, with the devs constantly checking in with the community to gauge the pulse and implement new stuff. And as far as I'm, the new stuff they added fits right in with some of the classics in a pretty seamless way, making for a fun (depending on who you ask, haha) game with all sorts of things to do and many different ways to do them.

[@SkeletonBill]

I think J1mmy raises a good notion that the next big MMO is not going to have quests where you slay X goblins. That has been done a million times, perfected, exhausted. The "next big thing", if it even happens, will be something completely different. Look at OSRS compared to WoW, they're both successful "MMOs" but they couldn't be any more different from each other. They occupy entirely different niches. The next MMO that exhibits that same kind of longevity is going to be as different from OSRS and WoW as they are from each other.

[@Pichelinou]

Love your recent reacts, keep it up !

[@icanrememberthis]

Man you are just pumping out the content, much appreciated :clap