William Lane Craig's Failed Defense of the Canaanite Genocide

[@jackdispennett744]

I think Craig's apologia for the slaughter is an example of apologetics appealing primarily to those who already agree with a set of suppositions. (I'm not saying all apologetics is like that, but I don't think anyone who's not already a Biblical literalist is going to find this argumentation any good.)

[@mistressofstones]

YES!!!! He's one of the apologists whose main gig is just stopping people from leaving, not inspiring new people to join.

[@shamuscrawford]

"The same kind of genocidal punishment would be warranted against America today" Amen!

[@Arven8]

Good job, Randall. Excellent rebuttal. I don't think there is any effective counter-argument to what you're saying. I admire WLC and think highly of some of his other work (e.g., on Kalam and fine tuning), but his argument here is very weak. You're absolutely right. Thanks for taking the time to do the video.

[@KudaIzka]

Thanks to Randall and his exception for the fallacy of appeal to emotions, the problem of evil is stronger than never.

[@chad969]

Two questions: 1. Can you cite an example of a Randall committing an appeal to emotion fallacy in this video? 2. When theists like Craig cite our moral intuitions as a justification for the belief in objective moral values, are they engaged in a fallacious appeal to emotion?

[@chad969]

That’s what I thought

[@MajestyofReason]

Excellent video. Also, Craig himself appeals to emotions in ethical argumentation. See, e.g., his moral argument, or his argument that life is meaningless without God, etc.

[@matthieulavagna]

I don't think he appeals to emotion. Rather he appeals to moral intuition...

[@MajestyofReason]

@@matthieulavagna I think he appeals to both -- our moral intuitions are strongly intertwined with our emotions, after all! :)

[@mistressofstones]

I just want to say this. I'm newly Christian, spent a lot of time in the "atheist community" when all the debates were happening all the time (Hitchens era) so I've seen this dufus and Banana Man a LOT. If it was up to William Lane Craig to convert me and no other Christians existed he could never convince me. I try to avoid him because he might talk me out of it, there is no joy, freedom, love and mystery in his Christianity. Just smugness and horrible arguments.

[@gideondavid30]

How would he fail to convert you? You are persuaded by truth or you are not. Yes, a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine going down. But be honest, nobody gets converted over the conversation of the old testament. It is Jesus and the Gospel.

[@apracity7672]

I'd like to point out a logical fallacy at the 7:30 minute mark. Your argument is somewhere along the lines that there were other societies that might have been more decadent or that there were a lot of other ancient societies that were just as bad. Just because other societies might have been just as degenerate, that doesnt mean that the Canaanites didnt deserve to be punished just because others werent punished for the same crimes. A criminal who commits a crime deserves to go to jail. Just because other worse or just as bad criminals commit a crime and don't go to jail, that doesnt mean the first one should be released from prison

[@eliassandoval9530]

Well the so-called "crime" for other cities in the bible was "worship other gods" (that's not a crime at all, let alone a justify to commit genocide) and allegdly children sacrifice; it's funny because this fictional god commanded to kill everything that breath, including childrens, and in other part this god also accept sacrificies of humans like in numbers 31 or the daughter of jefté, to give you an example; so i understand the logical fallacie that you are pointing out but to be clear, it has nothing to do with justify the atrocities that are mencioned in the bible. Sorry for spelling errors, english is not my first language.

[@gideondavid30]

@@eliassandoval9530 Worshipping other gods is a gateway to all other sins though. God warns before he judges. Not sure if you find an example where God orders genocide for simply Worshipping other gods. BTW, because you do not like the God of the Bible had no bearing on the argument for whether he exists or not.

[@eliassandoval9530]

@@gideondavid30 All you said is just what you believe; Other religions would point to your god and would say that is a false god and that you are being deceived; It's not about whether i like the character of the god of the Bible, it's about whether or not he or any other gods exist, so far there's zero evidence that your god, or the god of the Muslims, or krishna, Zeus, brahma or whatever deity exist, in fact, there are many historical, doctrinal and scientific contradiction in the Bible, in the Quran and many others "sacred" books. So, all you made were just baseless claims which are unfalsifiable and useless.

[@gideondavid30]

@@eliassandoval9530 Two separate questions. Yes, proof of God as opposed to criticism of a god you do not like. Often atheist arguments conflate the two.

[@macroman52]

Thus is not really on topic but the mention of Noah's flood and the idea of drowning as capital punishment reminds me. Whenever Noah's flood is described or depicted there are always raging storms, and this gives apologist the excuse to BS about the amazing stability of the Ark according to the dimensions given, and claim it is better than Gilgamesh's Ark. Why storms? It is almost as if they think God was trying to wipe out the Ark as well as all the people outside the Ark. In the description of the capital punishment method drowning, there is no storm involved, no agitation of the water - you just need rising water. And Gilgamesh's square life-raft seems reasonable, given that it just has to float- it's not going anywhere.

[@finty5457]

I think Craig obliterates the idea of the Canaanite children being a sacrifice to YHWH in the very next clip where he states the slaughter would not have affected any who left. They could have lived and the land would be handed to the Israelites. No need for a child sacrifice for it to happen. The response to that seems weak.

[@gideondavid30]

What evidence do you have about the Canaanites? How much evidence?

[@Veo87]

By the way, are you using a Blue Yeti? Those tend to be side-profile, so it should be pointing up and you speak into the side of it rather than pointing towards your mouth. Anyway, this topic has bothered me for a long time and I'm at the point where I'm kinda rethinking my views of inerancy. I'll have to check out your book.

[@kylebarrington5269]

I LITERALLY CAME TO THIS VIDEO TO SAY THE SAME THING! The Blue Yeti is NOT supposed to be used like Rauser is using it. And his audio is killing me, haha. @Randal Rauser, please speak into the side of the mic, not into the top. And make sure you are speaking into the correct side. Also, bring it closer to your mouth. It will increase the quality of your audio x100000000000000.

[@gideondavid30]

The USA isn't completely given over to sin though is it? There is still righteous people in the country. The logic being offered is God judges sin, and unrepentant sinners who ignore warnings for prolonged periods of time fall into judgement. It is amazing how you play the clip on how iniquity has reached its fullness, and then ignore the point. A culture that has completely given itself over to sin lack righteousness people is going yo be judged. That is logical. It isn't human sacrifice good lord it is passing judgment when the Israelites went to war with the Canaanites. Yes, there are spoils of war and God wants tithe and offerings, but his had nothing to do with ritual sacrifice to God. What a twisting of scripture and mental gymnastics performed. I am curious as to you are calling what the Israelites did a war crime and on what basis is it a war crime? This wasn't simply an act of war, it was passing judgement on a people. There is a huge difference. The goal of war is to force your enemy to either give up or kill them. You eliminate their resistance. Killing them isn't the ultimate goal though it is winning the conflict with them. Regardless of how you feel about a group of people's attachment to land, the group of people can still choose to live rather than to all die. The Jews were expunged from their land 2000 years ago and some of them committed suicide rather than to face Roman judgement. However, the Jews as a people still survived though. The Jews lost their land, but they were not ethnically cleansed. You can distinguish the two. Lastly, an appeal to emotion is irrelevant. You need a logical and coherent argument. Even if those arguments are emotionally charged or deal with topics that invoke emotion, you still have to make rational arguments. Even in the field of law, there is a fear of contaminating the jurors by presenting prejudicial evidence. YOu want the jury to handle the facts with logic not out of emotion.

[@rayzas4885]

How do you think we should handle the canamnites slaughter? Id love to see your views on this and what we can do as Christians to handle this

[@Randal_Rauser]

My answer is found in this book: amzn.to/37fUhiv

[@rayzas4885]

@@Randal_Rauser I'll buy that when I can because I've been struggling with this issue for awhile now

[@VBrinkV]

@@rayzas4885 It's an interesting book, but I found myself just as dissatisfied with its conclusions as the other apologists, only for different reasons. Worth a read perhaps, but I'd keep a critical eye open.

[@carsonwall2400]

Once again I'm shocked by the crudity and ineptitude of Craig's argumentation

[@annoyingdude76]

to be fair, Copan and Flannagan have more in their favor when it comes to hyperbolic rhetoric, both in numbers and the victims. With that said, I think that Greg Boyd does a better job when it comes to the slaughter of the Canaanites and others. He pulls no punches

[@davethebrahman9870]

Anyone justifying rape, genocide, burning young women alive and taking slaves is a moral imbecile.

[@alexandremotkalyuk7184]

If God comamds it, do it. If Hes the supreme good no command He could conjure will be from evil. Faith . Just bevause you hold feelings above God commands doesnt mean His commands are unwarented. What if you had greater feeling over animals? Animal sacrifice would be all the problem to you. Feelings are unreliable, and moral intuitions even thought folow a patern, can be molded by society and therefore, be mistaken.

[@davethebrahman9870]

How do you know when God commands these evil acts? How do you know when it isn’t just savage people justifying their own wickedness?

[@Cocomelon_baby-gr4qg]

Could it be that the Israelites slaughtered these Canaanite tribes and then attributed it to God after the fact? So God didn’t order this genocide at all? That’s just one theory, but WLC would never go there because he’d rather have a God that ordered genocide than an “errant” Bible.

[@colinpurssey9875]

I think your suggested explanation for those morally problematic biblical accounts is the correct one .

[@Ozzyman200]

He must be loving Putin right now.

[@joehinojosa24]

YHWH destroyed His own people through the Assyrians, Babylonians,Seleucids, Romans and Nazi Germany. He is a God of TOUGH LOVE.

[@shaunigothictv1003]

Here are the passages where YAHWEH commands that little babies must be chopped up with swords. Numbers 31 v 17 1 Samuel 15 v 2 Joshua 6 v 21 Joshua 10 v 28, 30 Deutoronomy 2 v 34 Evangelicals always claim that the YAHWEH commanded that the babies must be chopped up with swords as a punishment for their parents committing sins. Their parents were from surrounding nations that were NOT followers of YAHWEH. One of the claims is that the babies would have been sacrificed on satanic altars by their parents. So chopping the little babies up with swords waa actually irrelevant as the little babies went straight to heaven anyway. Remember that Jesus is YAHWEH according to the Evangelicals. So it was actually Jesus who commanded that the little babies must be chopped up with swords. Well Jesus must be schizophrenic because in the New Testament he says suffer the little babies to come unto me. YAHWEH and his alter ego Jesus is definitely a schizophrenic war God.

[@ardenking3481]

interesting would you debate him on this? you have the PhD he always insists on, just for giggles 90% of Atheists would be in your corner too :)

[@eden55272]

Israheli committed genocide against Cananittes written in Torah and Biblel by their peaceful gud order

[@flame0fire]

What about those who argue that the entire genre of Joshua is hyperbolic? Wolterstorff makes that kind of argument in "Reading Joshua" and Lisa Wray Beal's commentary on Joshua (carefully, and perhaps tentatively) acknowledges narrative contradictions in the text and that this is a hyperbolic propagandistic retelling of history meant to be read theologically.

[@unlimitedperseverance1706]

Interesting