Win Cons For Different Classes

[@LearnH2L]

I was just watching "You Are Coin Flipping Too Much," saw that comments were already posting how great the video is. Just wanted to remind you again, you're making some great content and it's actually helping me improve my ideas of the game. Respect, but I recommend securing a good brand name for all socials. The BenT or BeyondRepair, sound interesting separately but together it's not.

[@LearnH2L]

Twitch, KZbin, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon, Reddit, Discord, and secure a gmail. It's nice to write it all down on a sheet of paper, because you'll never risk online leaks, and it helps you feel better about the brand because you're invested enough to do something different like write it down on paper.

[@obiwancannoli1920]

BeyondRepair sounds good ngl

[@TheRealSorav]

I agree with the point about the brand name

[@DeMafiaGirl]

Honestly with ADC I find that patience is a virtue. I was playing Vayne yesterday and at first in the teamfight I was being impatient and going in too soon and getting one shot. I told myself okay calm down and just be more patient Anya. I waited in the bush and watched as the enemy team blew all of their cooldowns on my team and just waited, then I ulted in and cleaned everyone up for a quadra kill. Assassin, tank, mage, doesn't matter, once they blew all their abilities on my team they couldnt kill me. It won me the entire game just waiting a couple of seconds before going in

[@xiopia3940]

gc

[@vladys5238]

if they are smart they'll hold their stuff for you and that's when the game gets hard haha.

[@alex-qu7kb]

gc

[@DeMafiaGirl]

@@vladys5238 In any elo below masters they're not going to do that to be fair haha. People see team fight start monkey brain goes must press all my buttons

[@cokecan6169]

Not just patience but baiting. The more skilled they are the more they wait for you specifically, so it becomes a game of chicken to see who can trick the other person into thinking the fight's started. Bad players make mistakes all the time so it's easy to just wait for them to make the next one, but if you climb people aren't going to make mistakes on their own so you'll need to make them make mistakes.

[@wsx3268]

I cant believe educational content this good is so under the radar, keep up the great work!

[@RuneKillerz109]

too little drama and no jumpcuts every 2 seconds... not even subway surfer gameplay in the background. no wonder noone can watch this. lmao But imma be real. this is shit enducational content. Like there is no proper narrative structure, there is nothing to engage with besides pure knowledge alongside a very monotone delivery. A pure knowledge dump doesn't help in retaining much. This feels like a college class made by a prof who's really only doing either cuz the college requires it or for the money. Got nothing against OP for making this vid or any idea he proposes, other than do more work than speak into a micro if you actually want to engage people.

[@cheekybungus4926]

League audience is not interested in 5v5 strategy such as teamcomps, nor are they particularly interested in theorycrafting and experimenting with builds for their champs. Quick patch cycles prompt 'yesterday's news' mindsets

[@Krasnal428]

Win con for adc: deal dmg Win con for tank: let your adc deal dmg Win con for assassin: kill enemy adc

[@TomsonTimmy]

win con for "specialist": tilt the enemy team

[@HamsterPants522]

@@TomsonTimmy I think overwhelm or confuse might be better descriptors.

[@JM-gu7jx]

I think alistar is unique in that he scales super hard with teamfight comps and doesnt need to fight or get a lead early. His heals help with that too

[@PiscesKanna]

Ty so much for bringing such amazing in depth discussions to KZbin!

[@demonderpz7937]

As a person who swapped from playing Zed mid to Samira adc recently: I haven’t noticed a massive difference in playstyle. Either way I have to play it safe until key abilities are used. The difference is that as zed I might kill one person or mess up and die, but as Samira I might just honestly jump in and pentakill or die instantly if I jump the gun too much. So it’s still the coinflip I know and love. However, I hate adc laning phase with a passion because I have exactly one friend who is any good playing support (we go nautilus + samira) and everyone else I play with just plays too scared until I get impatient and int. It’s a struggle

[@Giggles4692]

As ADC, you need to spam ping for support to go in, each time you want to fight. If you make the calls for them, many bad supports look good.

[@Tendenciess]

​@@Giggles4692NA low ELO, I spam ping my support what to do, he abandons bot or starts farming my waves

[@Thedoctorr5]

As a fiddlesticks support I feel like I can be a pest without the hate that something like a shaco would garner. Better roam gabks with fear and silence than pure poke champ.

[@SmallPotato2313]

1:21 and then there is sion that is a good tank and also good splitpusher 😂 48:43 also i love the "weak against" tab where almost all adcs are weak against seraphine lol

[@Grasseatereu]

I need something clarified please, it sounds as support poke Champs fall of late, but my experience is we scale heavily and often out damage our team plus we have teamfight winning abilities ... I am here thinking of full ap: zyra, hwei, seraphine, velkoz .. so am i just to low rank or am i missing something??

[@NotVinegar]

You're in low elo, or your games aren't reaching a point where scaling matters.

[@bentbeyondrepair]

If you are out damaging your team you are doing great and will probably find success. But no, in general a poke support shouldn't be out damaging a mage or similar poke champ with access to more levels and gold.

[@oscarandersson4195]

I would love to hear your take on tryndamere >>#

[@ShoCoaching]

I'm a bit confused about the mid segment, please clarify: 1. What assassins don't have sufficient waveclear when it comes to sidelaning? I believe, pushing out sidelanes is essential to setup flanks, picks and to split up the enemies comp, as you benefit a lot from lower numbered fights. When I think of traditional midlane assassins, I think of Talon, Ekko, Qiyana, Kassadin, Fizz and Akali, (besides Zed and Katarina) and they seem to all be able to clear waves just fine (in the sidelane). Who were you thinking of? 2. An assassin "needs to farm to prevent the enemy midlaner from snowballing and (...) trade with the enemy midlaner, so that they don't have enough HP to roam". Assassins have stronger trades and all ins early, which gives them killpressure over mages. If you find a good trade as assassin, you can use your killpressure to setup roams yourself (most commonly on Katarina, Talon, Fizz, Kassadin, Akali with R). Most mages, especially control mages don't roam a lot, because they lack what makes a roam reliable. Mobility, reliable CC, burst. They have a hard time dealing with assassins kill pressure after level 6, or if you are bad at spacing even level 3. That's how assassins can function, despite (usually) getting outscaled if even on 3 items. Thoughts?

[@bentbeyondrepair]

My friend is a zed player so I was mostly thinking about zed. Of course all champions win cons are going to vary the more specific you get.

[@ShoCoaching]

@@bentbeyondrepair Can't Zed oneshot sidewaves as well? Zed is one of the most resource focused assassins in the game, for years, Challenger Zed mains have been getting more focused on farming and itemspikes. I understand that winconditions get more specific, but if I was trying to explain what a mages winconditions are, they will be largely laning and teamfight focused, while assassins will be focused on trading, rotating and sidelaning. They are so much safer in sidelane as well, thanks to their mobility. Edit: Also, if you were only thinking about Zed, weren't you generalizing the assassin role to Zed specifically?

[@bentbeyondrepair]

@@ShoCoaching zed can’t one shot the wave until mid/late game we were mostly talking about mid laners shoving and roaming to side lanes during lane. While I generalized that’s kind of the whole point. To give players an overview of what they should be doing. Of course if you wanted to be technically correct about every champions win con you would need to make a video on each champion but I’m not about to do 169 videos on the same topic.

[@HamsterPants522]

@@ShoCoaching Assassins in general have worse waveclear than other damage dealing classes. It's a general thing for the class. There can be exceptions where one assassin is good at waveclear but that's not normal.

[@ShoCoaching]

​@@HamsterPants522 The discussion was relating mid-lategame rotations and how assassins are more restricted in playing sidelane due to their lack of waveclear. This is wildly inaccurate. Most melee champions don't at all lack waveclear, they lack the means of pushing waves without getting into danger. A Katarina can't use her full combo onto the wave, because she'll get chunked out completely. In sidelane this doesn't usually apply though, so if we look at the list of assassins: Fizz, Talon, Ekko, Kassadin, Katarina, Diana can all oneshot waves. Zed, Qiyana and Akali are a little slower, but not by a lot, Zed depends on his itemization. In return, assassins have massive 1v1 kill pressure and mobility, allowing them to play more aggressively on the sidelane, as they can more easily escape if collapsed on. If we were to handpick assassins that have mediocre waveclear speed like Akali does (when it's big waves), we could do the same thing for some mages. Cassiopeia doesn't clear waves as quickly, neither does Swain, Leblanc, Lux, Zoe, Xerath... they clear fast, but they will generally need 2 rotations, similar to Zed, Akali or Qiyana. Assassins fundamentally have to play sidelane, their core identity is to setup flanks or picks in the enemy jungle and to split up the enemy team by forcing one of them to go answer the sidelane. Mages prefer skirmishes and teamfights, where they have the space and peel to use their AOE tools. Most assassins are single target focused. You will not find a single challenger assassin player who doesn't play sidelane nonstop, but you will find mages, especially artillery mages and sometimes control mages grouping playing for mid pressure a lot more when sidelaning is too risky. He mischaracterized the roles in the video and admitted that he doesn't know that much about assassins. I think that's evident from how short the midlane segment is. That's fine, I just wish he said that in the video.

[@omegaminoseer4539]

Caster ADCs are the only ADCs in the game. They require more pure mechanics and are designed to fight Skirmishers and 1v1 People. That is far better for teaching a Knife's Edge, compared to an Artillery ADC. There is no reason that you should pick some garbage AFKer and coinflip the lane phase and start crying about agency. That ending discussion about scaling Carries is too true. It's disgusting how much Gold swing there is back into the game.

[@Faedreamlol]

Hey man love the video, very informative! I play jungle mostly and identifying wincons is crucial to determine which lanes to get ahead and wincons usually have been a mystery to me (I'm a relatively new league player) I mainly play Gwen jungle who is sorta like Katarina and needs to let other team mates absorb or force enemy abilities to go on cooldown before entering the fray. I find I lose a ton of games going in first and then dying so I gotta fix that if I wanna climb, but others expect me to engage when we have no engages on our team so I am not so sure how to start a fight if everyone is an adc or 0 cc poke mage or another engage-reliant fighter. Gwen's just so squishy and often dies in teamfights which means my team doesn't have a smite... Any advice on working with a team with no engage? Do I just let the enemy engage on us first and we disengage and then re-engage?

[@bentbeyondrepair]

If you have no engage try to get pick first, maybe try setting up a flank Gwen is pretty decent at this. Or like you said if your team has good enough disengage you can let them come in to you and then fight them. Also objectives usually bait the enemy team in so you can threaten to take dragon or baron and then turn and fight, although sometimes this can be difficult to coordinate in solo q.

[@Faedreamlol]

@@bentbeyondrepair Okay sounds good I'll try to get picks and play like an Evelynn jungle main for that. Gwen's very good in 1v1 anyway I'm sure I can get a solo laner splitpushing

[@philipgroot7660]

Hey Ben, do you plan on streaming any time soon? I checked your Twitch but it doesnt have anything on it :(

[@bentbeyondrepair]

I've been pretty busy irl and having a lot of success on youtube recently so i'll be sticking to this, but I do occasionally stream and may do so more now that I have more followers. My vods just aren't set to save on twitch.

[@RealTalkKasper]

Do you think low elo player should avoid assassin junglers ? I noticed that most players in my team dont like to play frontline, which put me in a postion to spam amumu. Im not saying all games, but most

[@bentbeyondrepair]

In general, the easier the champion the better for low elo players, so they can focus on learning other aspects of the game. Tanks and especially simple tank champions really fall into this category. I would recommend Garen/Malphite for top, Amumu for jungle, Annie for mid, Ashe for adc, and Leona for support. These champions are good at teaching the fundamentals.

[@tmithoth8956]

Low elo junglers shouldn't even think about maining any champion.. they should try to last pick / counter pick games and stay focused on a mentality of "avoid dieing and out smite the event jungler" play style... In lower elo, no matter what your champion is or playstyle, wins and losses will be 100% down to your team mates and your efficiency securing objectives. Nothing else you do or don't do will have impact on the result.. this is why high elo players always tell people to focus on their winning lanes as a jungler... so in low elo if you have a troll bot lane there's nothing you can do about it right? Well what if focus on farming to first item and then secure rift herald and gank top lane. Then drop herald mid? Suddenly you have 3 allies ahead and free to roam. Then fight dragon and secure kills on enemy bot lane who will be pushing too much because of your troll ally botlane... rather than trying to gank for kills, or trying to help a losing lane.. just focus on winning...

[@bezmemow143]

Hello, I generally think your content is very high quality and helpful even for players like me in grandmaster to refocus on fundamentals and on the game. But I must say from the pov of a toplaner this video seemed to have really dropped the ball. First off there's the false dichotomy reasoning, there isn't only splitpush and grouping, you can push side and then roam or take camps, you can neutralize side and group, you can split on the opposite side of the objective or push up side ON the side of the objective. To qualify that as split push would be disingenuous because classical definition of splitpush is 2 silmutaneous sources of pressure on opposite sides of the map to force a choice out of the opponent. It's an excellent way to win games depending on champion, the more classical way is to push up side and roam/group without the goal of taking the tower. This is generally the best wincon if you can do it because you don't sacrifice grouping and you put pressure and get resources on yourself. The advice to ARAM mid is terrible, there's no good justification for it besides anecdotal evidence of teammates running it, you are effectively making yourself even more dependent on your mechanics, teamfights and flipping the game way more than to play stable, push up side and then group and look to exploit the 5v4 advantage without giving up on getting resources. It's kind of weird cause most of your other videos if you applied their logic to this one you kind of debunk yourself, but I assume that kind of thinking is because you play support which has the incentive to permanently group. I'm only talking about the Top wincon because I don't know the macro of other roles as well but I think this video ought to be remade or updated with better information. But it's very well made, could use like a powerpoint presentation and the voice is nice to listen to. I wish you the best

[@bentbeyondrepair]

You are probably right. Top is my weakest role tbf. I think taking camps is a big one because it can really snowball your team’s lead since it also denies from the enemy team. Maybe it’s because I’m taking to an audience of mostly low elo players, because I like playing engage tanks, or because I wouldn’t make a great top laner but I still love the NAram. It’s not hypothetical, solo queue is very much about playing around your teammates and adapting to the level of play and I think in low elo when you are massively ahead you can just group and win the game as a top laner instead of opening yourself up to getting picked and hoping your team does an objective on the other side. Keep in mind these players aren’t able to play the split push well anyways, dying on all the wrong times, when there are no objectives up, someone is in base or also dead, there isn’t a minion wave for their team to push with etc.

[@mannermichaels6609]

cool

[@rhombus636]

Do you have a Discord server? I'm really enjoying your educational content

[@bentbeyondrepair]

I don't but I may make one as the channel gets bigger.

[@GuardianGrarl]

Win condition for Braum is getting picked.

[@bentbeyondrepair]

gigachad

[@Zevrael]

's is used to indicate possession. For plural, just add the s without an apostrophe.

[@jamesbandz1]

Graves and Kindred are Marksmen

[@bentbeyondrepair]

I agree for kindred I don’t think I agree with graves. Either way just follow the adc type win con. Marksmen are heavily gold reliant champions. Collect as much gold as possible, then carry fights through good positioning, and threat assessment. Bonus points if you can play on a knife’s edge and dodge/bait abilities from the enemy team.

[@redgraves4030]

Vi's a tank?

[@jamesmunn576]

She is a hybrid.

[@bentbeyondrepair]

She is a fighter/tank depending on how you build her

[@NAxJLO]

i like this content it just feels too much infermation in such a long form i do really like this content tho