Wind Deflection and Bullet Accuracy

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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
Produced by: @red11media
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.

[@paststeve1]

Great explanation of wind deflection! Thanks Ron! I certainly wasn't bored.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Steven.

[@brentleycollin8931]

pro tip: you can watch movies at Flixzone. Me and my gf have been using it for watching lots of of movies recently.

[@loganjonah9575]

@Brentley Collin Definitely, I have been using Flixzone} for years myself =)

[@keithnavarro2930]

Too much thinking for a Friday. I'll save this to watch several times. Thanks.

[@johnkaraphillis754]

Good video Ron. Thanks

[@drdes9609]

Another great video Ron.

[@hentleyberenger6660]

Ron love watching your teaching new hunters like me 👍😁

[@bustabass9025]

At some point, it's just good to know that when I pull the trigger, the gun is gonna go "BANG!", and that mulie is gonna go down, and I'm gonna go run grab me a handful of antlers...and that's all that's gonna really matter. Notwithstanding the excellent trigonometric physics lesson here. [Laffin'😄]

[@CJ-zx4zt]

thamks again for another great video!!!

[@MrKen-longrangegrdhogeliminato]

LOL, OK MR WINDY. Thanks Ron Spomer.

[@leeleland1183]

Very enlightening

[@doghousedon1]

Where I live and shoot the distances are long and the wind always blows. Plus it's very hilly terrain. This causes the wind to roll over the hills and snake around them. That bullet ends up getting slapped up down right and left on it's way to the target and it's consistently inconsistent. Just hitting a target can be a challenge. Stalking is mandatory so one's thinking cap better be blaze orange. It's also a whole lot of fun, Thanks for the vid.

[@wilburnmartin9522]

Always an educational and enjoyable video. Thanks!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Wil.

[@phprofYT]

Good information.

[@davidteague5461]

Love your videos!!!! I always learn something.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks David.

[@aidanharvey738]

Great stuff

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks.

[@johnbennett7244]

Ron: This is over my head.

[@raymondparks4734]

Mine too, all I know is on windy days keep the shots close and let the experts shoot the long shots.

[@natevisna5420]

Great explanation

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Nate.

[@NomadicHacker.]

Very helpful 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@scottking1479]

Thanks man

[@tonnywildweasel8138]

Every day I learn something new is a good day. Once again, thank you sir! (now I have to get my brain back in line, it got into a spin drift) I think.. Greets, T.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks T.

[@teresarichmond9736]

Excelent , excelent video sir. Thanks for drilling down to the basics and explaining , in laymen’s , what going on with the projectiles 👍👍👍

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks, Teresa.

[@wimjacquemyn4906]

Thanks for sharing..great stuff.. Stay safe Greeting from Belgium

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Wim.

[@wrenchoperator6435]

Interesting video! Early in the video when you compared the 224 bullet to the 308 I knew that 224 would outperform the 308 by a bunch. I was intrigued though when you mentioned firing 75 grain bullets in your 22-250 Ackley Improved. The 22-250 has always intrigued me with its flat shooting and inherent accuracy. Back in the late 1990s I bought a Remington 700 VS chambered in 22-250 and immediately set off on a mission to find the most accurate hand load for it. I love this rifle and it consistently shoots 1/2" groups at 100 yds, sometimes less, and even sub one inch groups at 200 yards with both 50 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips or Hornady 50 grain V-Max bullets. I've settled on Varget but it did very well when fed a diet of H380 as well. In fact, just to get more practice I loaded 100 cases with cheap 55gr 224 HPBT bulk bullets of unknown brand, propelled by H380 and it even shoots them quite well I don't know if I got lucky with my factory rifle or if most 22-250 rifles shoot this well, but I love it. For awhile I was toying around with the idea of getting it rechambered to the Ackley Improved but decided against it. As much as the 22-250AI sounds like it has several advantages, I figured the odds of getting a factory rifle that shoots this well is slim, and I probably stand a greater chance of messing it up than improving on what I've already got. Sorry for being so long winded, but to my understanding the Rem 22-250 typically has a 1 in 14 twist, and I think Savage may make a 1 in 12 twist. I've decided to build a custom rifle in 22-250AI rather than modify my existing rifle, so I'd love to know more about yours. Did you get a faster twist barrel to handle the 75 grain bullets? I've been told the 22-250 1 in 14 barrel won't stabilize a bullet heavier than 60 grain, so I've never tried anything heavier than 55 grain. Please tell me about your 22-250AI rifle.

[@johnmorganjr769]

I'm trying to hang on! Thanks Ron!🇺🇸

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

You and me both, John. Thanks.

[@jero1918]

Thanx

[@branislavbucha9500]

Best gun channel. I love your math explanations.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

I appreciate that, Bran. Just be aware I am "mathematically challenged." But perhaps that's why my explanations help many of us. I'm trying to re-frame math and physics into language that we can understand.

[@branislavbucha9500]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors just keep goin. Thank you for answer Ron :)

[@carllovendale6259]

Great piece Ron, very well presented. You did your homework. That is why i worry about the younger crowd and the small cased Creedmore and long shots. Hope they were watching.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Carl, from what I've seen, many, if not most, of these serious extreme range shooters both study, understand, and apply these ballistic phenomenon quiet well.

[@carllovendale6259]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors I am glad to here that, the young guys pick up info quicker than this old woods hunter. Thank you Ron, keep up the good work

[@Win94ae]

I checked your work, you're good! ;)

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Oh, great. That's good to know! I always appreciate being confirmed or corrected so we can get this stuff right. Thanks Win94.

[@johnknierim9017]

Hell yes it does and rain will also.

[@skyeshore5704]

"Horizontal wind drift is not caused by the wind blowing against the side of the bullet. When a bullet is launched it heads into the wind and the drift is caused by the drag force acting on the bullet, which is canted with respect to the flight path." Harold R. Vaughn, "Rifle Accuracy Facts" Jan 2008. Precision Shooting, Inc.

[@MrRufusjax]

Not an expert on the subject but from a physics standpoint I think you're right. Great video Me. Spomer!

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks MrRuf. I, too, think I'm right, but I'm always open to correction from experts.

[@texassportsman5880]

Yes.

[@scottrussell6717]

My brain just exploded

[@daveknowles3055]

Great Job Ron. If we have spin drift to the right due to barrel rifling what effect does that have on wind drift from the right. Every article I have ever seen only ever shows wind from the left.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Great question, Dave. Simple answer is not much. At least not enough difference in wind deflection to worry about unless you're shooting smaller targets farther out than 600 yards or so. There are many little things going on including a bit of lift and drop due to crosswinds varying left or right, too. Delightfully problematic phenomenon extreme range precision shooters dote on, but more than I want to wrestle with as a hunter. I prefer to keep my focus on the hunt -- wind, cover, stalking, likely game movement, etc. rather than on extreme range ballistics, computations, computers, etc. But in a future video or two I'll dive into more of the esoteric ballistic matters. Always fun to know.

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

It's additional to a certain extent. Wind from the left and spin drift to the right are subtractional, again to a certain extent. If you're hunting large game, you are going to be more concerned about the wind, at least at ranges of 600 yards or less.

[@melchung1566]

I read some where that bullet YAW is why some rifles and loads are more accurate at a longer range once the bullet settled down. I have no idea if this is relevant or true. The way I shoot- it don't matter 😆 Thanks for video!

[@ajramon4770]

Yes the yaw does settle down faster for much rounder and flatter faster than it does for slick bullets. There was a test thats speedy talks about in one of erik cortinas videos where he ran tests with others abt that difference in bullets. The conclusion was that long slick bullets are better for long ranges becuase the yaw settles down much slower coming out of barrel. But shorter bulkier bullets settle much quicker. Making the the bulkier bullets better for shorter distances.

[@two-strokesmoke7289]

I like your channel you get right into the "meat and potatoes" of shooting.......

[@danielleclare2938]

The fired bullet is travelling thru more air than the dropped one so that is a simple way to understand why it moves over more. Also it is moving faster so the drag on it is way more than the dropped bullet.. yes spin can make a difference maybe my Enfields are left twist and accurate. Coriolis effect is a factor as well as density altitude etc etc....

[@davidschmidt5810]

Great explanations Ron! Now if you could explain whether close wind or far wind is most important for moving the bullet. Thanks

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks David. Both far and close winds are important, but close a bit more significant because the changes it starts in the bullet's deflection off original line of departure are magnified over a much longer distance. For example, enough wind from the muzzle to the 100 yard mark to deflect a bullet 1/60th of a degree (which is one MOA, i.e. 1.047") results in a 2" deflection at 200 yards, 3" at 300 yards, etc. So, even if the wind were to cease after that initial deflection, the angle of departure would continue, resulting in 10.47" of deflection at 1,000 yards. A MOA equivalent wind starting at, say, 300 yards would begin a similar deflection with, obviously, less total deflection on target at all downrange distance. These would, however, not quite be the same as the "at muzzle" deflections due to decreased velocity of the bullet. I do not know how to calculate deflection at 1,000 yards for, say, a 10 mph right angle wind starting at 300 yards. But that's ok because I have no way of knowing a 10 mph wind is cutting across my bullet's flight path at 300 yards either! One more recommendation for stalking closer. Reading wind is more art than science. Stalking is an art, too, one that intensifies my anticipation and excitement and brings me closer to my roots as a hunter. Unfortunately, manufacturers cannot sell stalking, so they concentrate on bullets, wind meters, etc.

[@SkipperE67]

If you really want to know about this subject pick the mind of Bryan Litz !

[@ultravioletexpress7873]

This is the most informative video about this subject I have seen. Thank You! BUT ... Now i have a follow up question: If the energy needed to Kant into the wind like a weathervane comes from the energy in the bullet given to it by the velocity/and/or/ RPMs, then would a bullet with less RPMs drift less. For example a 264 win mag was a fine cartridge that shoots a 6.5 projectile usually with a 1 in 10 twist. Now days people (can) shoot the same projectiles in a similar cartridge called the 6.5creedmore. But the twist is more like 1 in 8 twist... So if the same exact bullet were used, thus same ballistic coefficient, and they were shot with same powder/pressure/velocities... Would the creedmoor be further off at 500 yards? The same or better test could be done with 243win and the new 6mm arc. Maybe more twist isn't always better?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Aha! You are plunging into the deep end of the pool, Ultra Violet. Brave of you. I honestly don't know the answer regarding the spin rate, but of course do know that the lower MV results in increased wind deflection primarily because the bullet must remain in flight longer to reach the same distance. However, the canting into the wind is partly due to the crosswind itself, not just the spin. Crosswind puts pressure against the bullet's side. Bullet reacts by turning into said wind slightly while internal spin energies (like a gyroscope) resist pressure changes resulting in my head spinning as I try to figure all this out. Now I've got more work to do! Thanks a heap, UV. But let us all know if you come up with an answer.

[@tpiskl]

Another great video Ron , I hate to bother you with a question. I’m looking into a long range precision rifle ( target use only ). I’m leaning towards 6mm creed over the 6.5 creed. But I’d rather have your opinion.

[@geraldarcuri9307]

"I don't know what I'm talking about, but let me tell you what I think I'm talking about. Since I'm just a regular guy, and I have cool props, you will probably be OK with me sort of just speculating a lot." At least Ron has the honesty to admit what he doesn't understand. That being said, I just sort of agree with the commenter who referred to dead reckoning with wind in the field as Kentucky windage. If I am missing the target, the first thing I do is correct my aim slightly to compensate for the known wind direction... which could be different 200 yards downrange. It usually works, but not always. And my mind isn't weighed down by multiple equations.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Yes, Gerald. I don't want to announce that what I'm about to tell you is "settled science" because, like the experts in Galileo's day "knew," the Earth is flat and the center of the Universe. Settle science is an oxymoron. So I share what I know to the best of my ability with the caveat. That way everyone contributes his/her own thinking and -- I hope -- we all come closer to understanding these phenomenon.

[@kylewebb9075]

Hi Ron can you do a review on the Chiappa DOUBLE BADGER FOLDING SHOTGUN/RIFLE 410-243WIN/20"BBL or 20 Gauge - 243WIN. I keep seeing reviews on the 22LR and not the 243WIN.

[@hairy1harry1]

if you shoot long range with a variety of calibers , these are the numbers that correspond to Kentucky windage . Damn Ron , you almost make physics understandable for the "not so educated " . You're a great teacher .

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Thanks Hairy.

[@johnnypop5235]

That's why the balenced bullets tend to shoot better at longer range. By balenced I mean the center of pressure is balenced with the center of gravity. Proper twist rate to maintain SG at 1.5-2 is ideal. It's much better to have the SG at the higher end 2.0 when shooting longer ranges. The bullet achieves full gyroscopic stability therefore reducing drag. The bullet will be able to overcome environmental conditions better.

[@joesophmangum2077]

Also don't forget a bullet with a right hand twist to it will travel to the right over distance even if the wind isn't blowing or even if the wind is blowing left to right slightly the bullet will still hit further and further right the farther it goes.

[@joesophmangum2077]

You can zero a rifle at 100 yards and in zero to no wind the bullet will hit Slightly to the right in just 200 yards and even more in 300 yards always lower and further right the further you get from the zeroed in range.

[@ajramon4770]

Ron did mention this in the video

[@rdm5190]

The way to learn balisics: Put rounds downrange in changing conditions an record all applicable data(wind s&d,round caricteristics,bore&rifle data,ect...) And practice

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Well, that's one way, but pretty expensive. A bit of classroom study first can save hundreds of rounds. But then real world action can iron it in.

[@danielsmith4090]

Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. I'll just keep calling it Kentucky Windage

[@tahertz8544]

So a analogy for Spindrift would be like a baseball player throwing a curveball or a screwball correct?

[@patrickd2013]

Not really, no. The big difference is that spin drift is consistent, and follows an arc than can be calculated. The directional forces a pitcher is applying to the baseball are multi-directional, and in some cases include a back spin. Much like in pool, or billiards, there are odd twists and turns involved, way beyond the relatively simple spin drift discussed here.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Butch, I don't think your analogy is that far off, although I don't know all the ins and outs of baseball or bullet trajectories. I've seen no mathematical formulae for precisely computing trajectory of either. Spin drift seems to be dependent on caliber, spin rate, MV, perhaps bullet weight, length, and shape, too. Baseball flight changes due to stitching, smoothness of the hide, etc. So a bit of voodoo with both. You can find all kinds of drop and wind deflection calculators, but I've not seen a spin drift or baseball curve calculator. Patrick here summed it up nicely with his twists and turns sentence.

[@michaelgarrow3239]

It’s the precession of the bullet spinning like a gyroscope.

[@cruzingpapa]

Above my grade for sure. So from what you're saying if I understand is if you're shooting at say 1000 yards.. It's much more important what the wind is doing from your position to 500 yards than it is from 500 yards to 1000 yards?

[@ajramon4770]

Unfornately no, if your shooting at a target at 1kyds then the wind has absolute effect from when it left the muzzle to when it hits target. Ron is saying the you can calculate the deflection by an angle from a line that that passes through your point of aim and vertical to your aim. If the wind is consistent from 0-1000 then you can calculate it but most of the time you have several winds at different distances since there is so much space between u and target.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Cool, if you're meaning no wind from muzzle to 500 and then the 10 mph (or whatever speed) wiund from 500 to 1,000 yards, the wind at muzzle will have a greater effect on total deflection because it starts the angle of deflection that continues even if the wind stops farther down range. That angle continues, resulting in a wider divergence down range than would the angle started by the wind at 500 yards. Of course, Aj above is correct about the several winds across the range. We just can't measure at what angle and to what degree winds blow downrange. They can rise, fall, swirl, etc, much of it due to land forms (orthographic effects.)

[@blainstenberg2806]

Curve ball

[@timothybehnke1067]

Dang yo! That said which would wander more then? 7mm rem mag or 300 rem mag? 7mm keeps calling my name for some reason for big game out to 5/ 600 yds. As usual get tutorial Ron.

[@shanerRC]

I always figured it would make sense to build a LH twist long range gun because spin drift could cancel out coriolis effect.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

I wonder if that would work?

[@syitiger9072]

That depends of ur shooting south to north or north to south

[@shanerRC]

@@syitiger9072 In the northern hemisphere coriolis makes bullet impact to right whether shooting north to south or south to north.

[@googleuser8448]

So when does the Coriolis effect come into play?

[@philipfreeman72]

Do some calibers & twist rates cause bullets to fly in a spiral at close ranges ?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Good question, Philip. Spiral flight is caused by bullet instability, i.e. extreme yaw and/or nodding of the bullet tip. But I'm not sure if this is a true spiral trajectory or if it's technically called something else. But think of the bullet tip circling up, then around its axis of spin. That exposes much more surface area (ogive and shank) to on rushing air mass, which in turn increases drag dramatically. And of course accuracy suffers.

[@elitehomebuilders6389]

as a Montana native i have hunted in very steep terrain can you do a video of shooting up and down hill please

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Yes, Elite. We'll get to that one soon.

[@elitehomebuilders6389]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors thanks for the great content

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

It's kinda simple conceptually. Gravity acts perpendicular to the surface of the earth. When you change the angle of departure, gravity acts over the straight line distance, not the actual distance that the projectile travels. Shooting either up or down hill shortens the distance that gravity acts on the projectile, relative to the distance that the projectile actually travels, causing the drop to be less, both while shooting up or down hill. A shot taken at a 45 degree angle, at a range of 500 yards, will correspond to a shot taken, perpendicular to the force of gravity, at about 440 yards, leading to less drop for the 500 yard distance, both uphill and down. A good rule of thumb is; get as close as you can, and don't hold out of the hair.

[@dustinbarry5328]

Hey Ron what book is that you're reading from I'd love to get my hands on one

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Sierra Handloading Manual. Highly recommended.

[@dustinbarry5328]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors thanks alot. Love the content!

[@maverickpaladin4155]

Have you already done a detailed breakdown of BC and SD? If not, could you? My understanding is that a longer, skinnier bullet is truer than a shorter, fatter bullet and typically penetrates deeper, but I'm sure that's just scratching the surface. Is there also something to the ogive, or is that just a buzzword for selling more expensive bullets? Thank you.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

The simple answer is that SD (cross sectional area of the bullet) in a given material/construction contributes to deeper penetration because more mass is in the longer shank of the bullet. As pertains to flight/trajectory, SD is not included in the calculations because it is already factored into the B.C. number. The longer the bullet the higher its SD and BC. I think what many SD fans don't realize or forget is that in a given caliber and weight, SD is constant but B.C. is not. Thus, a round nose .308 180-grain and boat tail spire point .308 180-grain are both SD .271, but the RN is B.C. .241 and the BTSP is B.C. .480 or thereabouts.

[@maverickpaladin4155]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors so then BC is a cumulative measurement of the projectiles ability to cut through the air and forces acting against it en route to the target?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

@@maverickpaladin4155 Exactly. Really the only two things you need to know to factor trajectory curve are B.C. and MV.

[@jeanmorin3247]

It is hard to understand why the bullet is said to spin axially into the wind rather than away from the wind (which you say was your original mistake). Just like a baseball or any body exposed to gas or liquid pressures, the body will go to the least pressured direction. That is why bullets shot into water emerge out, because they follow the path of least pressure which is up, with their nose pointing up. When that bullet is pushed to the right by the wind, its axis will be pulled in the direction of least resistance. it will not (I believe) point into the wind and fight the wind. This means that, because the bullet has an axis of rotation that stabilizes its flight and sets it in a firm direction, when that bullet is pushed to the right by the wind, the axis of rotation will facilitate and amplify the drift out to the right, downwind. The notion that the bullet would 'fight' the wind by redirecting its spin toward the left is counter-intuitive. However, it could be explained by the fact that the back profile of the bullet is larger than the front (pointy) profile of the bullet and the bullet has more wind pushing on its back part than on its front part, directing the head of the bullet into the wind by pushing more on the back. If this was the case, the spin at the new angle of the bullet would re-direct the bullet to the left, minimizing rather then enlarging the total drift due to the wind. Bloody interesting problem, that archers feel a lot more than rifle shooters. When an arrow is released into a side wind, the back fletchers will be carried more by the wind than the steel head. This will make the arrow point into the wind and make it fight against the wind, thus reducing the total drift, but in no way succeeding in nullifying it , because the head is also pushed by the wind, if less. Shooting accurately in this condition is a matter of experience... Aviators who fly with a side wind at 90 degree angle must also find that the wind that hits their back vertical tail will push the aircraft axis into the wind (the principle of a weather vane). I am probably way outside the right explanation, but I am sure trying to get this one, if not straight, at least drifting in the right direction... More help please. Bloody Good topic. Thank You.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Jean, I'd offer more help but I'm not sure I have any better than what you're coming up with. I like you weathervane/airplane explanation for the nose tipping into the crosswind. Complicating my understanding is the bullet's center of gravity and center of pressure, which aren't identical. But one of these must act as the "hinge" on which the bullet tips in response to cross angle wind pressure. Fun stuff, eh?

[@dukedashwolfgg2283]

Someone please tell me where I can get a hat like that

[@syitiger9072]

Basically the low pressure on the right side is pulling the bullet

[@abrad3061]

So a smaller faster bullet is better in windy areas?

[@SuAmigoElilegal]

What is the BC of nosler 308 win RDF 175 grain FMJ, Is it G1 or G7 and what is the ratio number

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Nolser lists it as .536 G1, but actual B.C. can vary slightly barrel to barrel. And B.C. changes with velocity, so it is never constant across the range/flight path.

[@SuAmigoElilegal]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors what is the g7 because that ammo is said to be ultra BC also RDF. Is it that a G7 because is a boat tail

[@wdcjunk]

Where does your intro music come from?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

I don't know, wdc. Something my marketing manager found.

[@robertpowell2746]

Ron this makes you wonder all the calculations the military snipers have to make to connect with their long range kill shots. Lot more to it than one might think.

[@14goldmedals]

That's the reason Mil-Dot reticles and the corresponding math were invented. Accurate range estimation and holdover points if needed. Today you have apps, before that the military developed electronic ballistic calculators and before that were slide-rules and circular spin charts. It still takes an expert to make those shots in field conditions with an enemy looking for you. But some of today's hunters and sporting shooters are just as good accuracy wise and hit percentages but could never pass a sniper course physically.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Indeed. This is why a sniper team includes the shooter and the all important spotter doing the calculations, reading the wind, etc. Send it!

[@learnaswegofarm2227]

Is yaw and spin drift the same thing?

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

No. Yaw is the tip of the bullet looping a circle not perfectly in line with the bullet's axis. Spin drift is the bullet drifting in the direction of its spin due to precession. Don't ask me to explain precession

[@heediba2632]

Looks like you are using a G7 bc for the 308 and G1 bc for the 224. I would check those numbers again.

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

Nah. Round nosed vs. Spire point. The G1 is what is being used here.

[@slotcarfan]

A lot of shooters really think a bullet fired drops slower than a dropped bullet. They need to take a physics class.

[@miuqe1468]

so if you spun up a bullet to same rpm as a fired one and dropped it from 16 ft under the same wind would you expect the same deflection

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Hmm. Good question. I would not, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen.

[@The1stLumiens]

at very long distances some say that you have to take into account the actual rotation of the earth too. washingtoncitypaper.com/article/224118/do-snipers-compensate-for-the-earthrsquos-rotation-what-the-coriolis/ - Most people adjust easily by adjusting their scope. Snipers often don't have that luxury where it's mission critical.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Compensating for Coriolis Effect in yet another complicating factor, Lumiens. Makes my head spin.

[@syitiger9072]

@@RonSpomerOutdoors easy because earth spin is consistent

[@johnhale9686]

How about if the bullet twist rate is slower, like a 1 in 12 or 1 in 16?

[@ajramon4770]

Yes the twist rate does have an affect on the projectile motion. The yaw is reduced of increased and there for it increases or decrease the pressure it feels from the wind. From what i was tuaght. The heavier bullets like slower twist rates and lighter bullets like faster twist rates. The twist rate also highly affects the coriolis effect. And the direction you are facing with respect to the earth. Whether thats facing south.north or east and west. The twist rate also affects the spin drift becuase the spin drift is dependent on the speed of twist and the direction. None of this has major affects out to 600 or 500 yards. They have heavy effect when the bullet starts to be trans-sonic out past typically 1200-1500yds.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

John, to my knowledge, twist rate has minimal effect on deflection. It is important for stabilizing the bullet (spin) and does contribute to spin drift, but I'm not sure it plays much of a roll in minimizing wind deflection. Regardless, one must use a twist rate sufficient to stabilize the bullet anyway.

[@joegomez4807]

Lol. Vector Calculus is very complex and most people never get close to learning any math related to it. Good work though.

[@danstevens2204]

Know your rifle/load and know your wind pretty simple

[@phoneuser3569]

Air is a fluid......

[@ajramon4770]

...at those speeds.

[@ronladuke7235]

That 22 bullet will have a much higher bc and will shoot flatter and drift less,

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

You are right, Ron.

[@user-tp8re9hl9r]

У меня тоже фамилия Шпомер мы родствиники

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

My grandfather came out of the Volga River district, possibly Bangert village.

[@joserubio8417]

You are comparing a heavy match grade boat tail 224 bullet with one of the worst flat tail 308 bullets. I think that's not fair. Why you don't compare with 208 grains, or more heavier match-grade 308 bullets to be more equal?

[@ajramon4770]

That was not his point. His point was the difference in BCs and he used the slick bullet to have the better BC. heavier projectiles are known to have better BCs becuase the increase in volume due to the slick point and not the rounded head. Yes he could have compared two bullets from the same caliber and have different BCs that would have been much better experiment but he didnt.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Jose, I was maximizing the differences in bullet shapes to emphasize how and why B.C. matters more than caliber and mass when minimizing the effects of wind.

[@219garry]

Ballistician to laymen: let me explain to you what's really going on Particle physician to ballistician: NO, let me explain what's really going on. God: Nevermind

[@MarriedFucker]

All of what you’ve said is true. HOWEVER....what you did not say is that you should always attempt to get as close to your game as humanly post so that none of this matters. I have never shot at game more than 80 meters away. At that distance it should bear no effect from the wind deflection. Be an ethical hunter and get up close and personal. You’ll enjoy the HUNT more and less the “shooting” part.

[@doghousedon1]

That is so so true. And who gets the best bragging rights, the guy who shot his buck at 957 yards, or the guy who worked his way so close he set his rifle down and whacked it across the head with a stick?! The hunt is way more fun than the shot. Thanks for saying that.

[@MarriedFucker]

@@doghousedon1 you’re most welcome!!! Here is an example of that. I have hunted in several states and twice in South Africa on safari. The BEST and MODT LIFE REWARDING hunt I’ve ever been on was a south Texas pig hunt where my daughter at 14 years old crawled on her stomach to within 10 years of a feral hog to shoot it with her 7mm-08. I watched her with tears in my eyes as she got to within rock throwing distance of that feral hog and then dropped it. Nothing will ever top that for me as a hunter!!!

[@mikeharris7834]

Not to argue or disagree, but Ron does say this at the end of his video 14:25 "Another reason why I like to stalk closer, I have more success getting down low to crawl than remember all this mathematical stuff" He has emphasized this point many times in his other videos, although its always good to remind it to new hunters and long range target shooters. Good day!

[@MarriedFucker]

@@mikeharris7834 ahhhhhhhh. I actually missed that and you’re correct he did say it. My bad! Thanks fir points out cause I did miss that. But he’s right. Getting close and personal is extremely rewarding. Nothing like being at literally breathing distance from your game before you take the shot.

[@doghousedon1]

@@MarriedFucker Good girl!!! Thanks for sharing.

[@snek9353]

Lies! A heavier bullet will tend to have a better BC than a lighter bullet. Those were the worst two examples possible in the .224 v .308 comparison. His ideal .224 had a BC of .423 and his horrible example for a .308 was .227. But a .308 150gr Sierra Matchking has a BC of .417, they don't make a 150gr tipped, but a .308 155gr Tipped Matchking has a BC of .519. So between his .224 and the .308 155gr TMK lunched at the same speed the .308 will have less drift. However you go even heavier and a 230gr Matchking has a BC of .800 no .224 bullet has a BC that high.

[@ajramon4770]

Ron did mention the the bc does have a heavy effect on wind deflection. Yes he did use a bad example for a choice of bullets but none the less that major difference in BC is what his point was. He didnt lie. He just didnt make it clear.

[@snek9353]

@@ajramon4770 No his opening premise is that "shoot a heavier bullet so you have better wind resistance" is "not quite" true "but close". The fact though is that it is completely true, for two bullets of identical design the heavier one will have a better BC.

[@ajramon4770]

@@snek9353 yes no one is saying it isnt and he didnt lie. He just used a bad example and comparison. He did state that the principle of the matter is the BCs not the weight; that has a major impact on the deflection.

[@snek9353]

@@ajramon4770 Yes, but as he presented it one would think the lighter bullet has a better BC because it's lighter. He made no mention of the effect of mass or design on BC.

[@ajramon4770]

@@snek9353 like i said he didnt lie he just wasnt clear with his words.

[@oldgoat1890]

I could not watch this all the way through. You lost me at the "Bullet drop" part. I heard the same BS in physics class. Blind belief in set laws. Where is the proof to this theory? How was it tested? If you shoot identical bullets out of a smooth bore and a rifled bore, do you think they will hit at the same time? You need no wind to get "Bullet whip". Why do you think you need a dope sheet to correct horizontal impact at different ranges?

[@usofdenmark]

"blind belief in set laws" guess you aren't a christian either then?

[@ajramon4770]

Unfortunately ron couldn’t get his point to everyone but to prove it to yourself. Grab a heavy object and a light one...try a baseball and golf ball... and hold them out and drop them at the same time. And use the critical thinking to come to a decision of your results. My hypothesis is that they will hit the ground at the same time.

[@RonSpomerOutdoors]

Sorry Old Goat. But this is physics, not BS. Gravity is, indeed, a constant. It changes by mass, which is why astronauts can jump much higher on the moon than on Earth. Scientists long ago calculated and proved the drop stuff. Now, technically in our atmosphere the fired bullet will not hit the ground at precisely the same instant a the dropped one due to air drag on the broadside bullet. But in a vacuum even a bowling ball and downy feather dropped together will hit the ground together. You can see it in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e2WWXnacqtB4ndU. Also, this stuff is proven regularly by military snipers engaging targets as far as 2,500 yards. They do the calculations. It's complicated, but real. I don't understand all of it, but I'm willing to learn. By the way, what is "bullet whip?"