IT'S ALIVE! Installing a VFD and 3 Phase motor on my Well Index Mill - Part 2

[@CapnCrusty]

On my mill I tilted the entire mill a few degrees with respect to level, tapped a hole and installed a brass fitting in the table end, and installed a plastic tube with a bit of stainless steel wool inside and led it down to the coolant reservoir so that coolant in the table drains over time back into the tank.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Mine is usually level but because I was rolling it around to install the DRO it was not. My biggest problem is the coolant that slings off the back of the table. I need a way cover with a drain. The table drains perfect and the tank has a good filter.

[@robert574]

What if you put a thin piece of sheet metal (aluminum) under the vise then bend it up behind and the back edges in. @@WinkysWorkshop​

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@robert574 I had a piece in there and misplaced it. Mostly I need a new vise with a coolant gutter. The reason I bought this one is the fact that it clamp down in any position relative to the T slots. I'm lookin at a 4" HIPP. It has a 5-inch clamping range but is still 4 inch. Most are 4 x 4.

[@robert574]

The problem with chips (and coolant) is you never know which way they're going to go. You almost need a clear plastic box like how those popcorn machines are made (and the bottom under your vise). Maybe a large rectangular skillet or something from goodwill. One of those half sized aluminum baking sheets might be nice.@@WinkysWorkshop

[@alander6734]

Great video, always enjoy your projects. This one hit home I’m rebuilding a small mill ( Clausing 8520). Picked up a 3/4 3 phase at the Restore cheap. Thank you for the informative video. Side note was a little scared watching drilling the 1/2” in the sheet metal. I have used a “Rotabrotch “small annular cutter set for sheet metal with good results . Thanks again for all you do to provide us with the quality , honesty and information in your productions

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I was scared too... In hindsight I should have used my step drill. Silly me. Step drills work great for sheet metal, I just forget about them. Thanks for the comment.

[@lv_woodturner3899]

Looking very good. Working well. I am surprised you did not add the digital tachometer you showed in a video last year. I purchased one to put on my mill. I have VFD and 3 different pulley options so easier to read the spindle speed with the tachometer. Dave.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I will add the tach. I'm doing the same... i have 3 pulley options.

[@rolliekelly6783]

Having the directional switch close to hand is convenient when power tapping.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I was thinking the same and if I change the front belt position its super slow. However, my quill is worm drive and requires a lot of force to move

[@billybike57]

Always enjoy your channel!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I appreciate that! Thanks

[@ozguzzi]

I would have liked the indicator light on the front panel, if there is enough room. Great videio, "I like it" !!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yeah... I should have made the front a bit larger. I agree, the front would have been better.

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

Great install Winky. That was meticulous enough for Mark Presling. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Ha... Mark does a great job, I'll take that. Thanks

[@robert574]

Ok, I said you had inspired me and I have cleaned 1/4th of the garage (meaningful because it is room). Next, I'm tearing apart my heavy enclosed work bench I built in '83 in MO. I was going to leave it when we moved to FL in '94, but the movers put it on the truck and here it is. Work paid for the move and they even packed the full trash cans and brought them. I couldn't believe how fast metal disappeared when I put it to the curb yesterday, it was gone between trips. When I went to get the trash cans a minute ago, some guy I couldn't understand was taking an old hot water tank from the neighbors from beside his house. Some lucky guy even got a boat motor last night. I remember watching my dad toss everything when he turned 70 and I couldn't understand it. I'm 68 and I understand it now.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Ha,,, yeah, baggage.

[@robert574]

Right, baggage. That's all it is. @@WinkysWorkshop

[@David-hm9ic]

I can't begin to tell you how valuable and useful your content has been to me in the last year or two. Your interests in machinery are very much like mine. $25.00 for that motor and a clear conscience. AWESOME! The indicator light is an excellent idea. I did the same thing in the electrical box for my Index 645. I have other indicator lights as well. The air compressor is mounted in a different room and has a blue light special light mounted on the shop ceiling that is very noticeable as I shut down the workshop in the evenings. I split the 240V incoming off to provide 120V as well, installing a 2 gang 120V box and outlets external to the box. I went with Automation Direct and their 240V single to 240V 3 phase .75Kw VFD. It was much narrower. I'm able to fit two of them in a slightly larger box. I also used the original Hubbell Fwd/Rev switch on the machine to control the Fwd/Rev on the VFD and will do the same when I get the second VFD for the table feed which is also 3 phase. That retains the original tactile feel of the industrial switches as well as the positive and intuitive action. Those crimp terminals ROCK! I only learned about them in the process of building my electrical box. They're worth every penny!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks... I suspect yout VFD is a little better than this one but for 3/4hp mind works well.

[@donteeple6124]

Mark, You did an OUTSTANDING job on this one.....all yourprojects are good, THIS one was exceptional. You've taken the proverbial sows ear and made one heck of a purse out of it. Any one and I mean ANYONE would be proud to have this in their shop. Can't wait to see what your next project will be. A surface grinder maybe???????? Hint hint !!!!! Don

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Wow.. thanks for the great compliment. Sorry about the surface grinder. I don't need one very often and I have to pick and choose my tools carefully. My next project will likely be a bit silly. I need a TIG electrode grinder so I plan to make one out of an old blender motor. However, I will get back into involved and important projects too. I'm thinking about another CNC wood lathe and another wood car similar to my Buckboard flyer. It will be an electric version called a Auto Red Bug (also originally made in 1920).

[@thehobbymachinistnz]

Good work Mark. It beats changing the pulley belts all of the time.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks. Honestly, I did not realize how often I avoided changing speed. Now I never hesitate. Plus it allows me to experiment and find what works best while cutting. Sometimes a small change makes a big difference.

[@brucemansfield2501]

One tip, Winky. Never cut off conductors in a control cable. If a wire gets pinched or broken, you can use the spare conductor in its place. Simply tape the end of the extra wire to keep it from coming in contact with a power source and tuck it away.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thats a good tip. I actually did that on one of the wires but cut several other.

[@Greybeardmedic]

I love the application of new technology to an old restored machine. The tachometer is a great idea and NOW you also need some power feeds. Z-axis would be a challenge, but an awesome idea, and X - axis you could probably purchase. Keep it up! Let us see what you make with your upgraded mill.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I'll eventually power the X, probably not the Z. Thanks

[@alanjackson4397]

Looks like a nice clean install👍

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks 👍

[@robertocentonze9653]

Ti seguo con grande interesse da parecchio tempo, mi piace il tuo modo calmo di pensare e di agire, anche io ho un laboratorio non eccezionale come il tuo ma il tempo che ci passo mi fa stare bene. Da giovane mi diplomai tornitore meccanico ed ora che ho 78 anni mi godo queste passioni...complimenti per tutto ciò che fai...un saluto da Roma👍👋

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thank you sir! Yes a nice workshop is great retirement!

[@ThePottingShedWorkshop]

You've made a nice job of that installation. I used a larger version of that style of box for the vfds for my mill (spindle and feed) but mounted it on the wall. A couple of suggestions: the hole on the base enables you to use a replaceable panel for cable access to avoid drilling the painted box, and second, when youre drilling thin sheet place a scrap of rag under the drill. It helps stop the drill grabbing and making a mess of the hole as it breaks through.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I wanted the bottom open for ventilation. As for drilling, I had a brain fart. I usually use step drills and they cut amazingly smooth. Thanks

[@ellieprice363]

Very professional installation. Nice to see how all the components work together.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍

[@angelramos-2005]

Quite an improvement,Mark.Very well explained.Thank you.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Glad you liked it, thanks

[@jrkorman]

Mark, very nice work! Agree with several of the other comments - Get a tachometer! Beside, it'll look cool. I have to wonder what the original builders of that mill would think of the upgrades!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I have wondered the same. I also wondered what they were thinking when they made the belt shroud so close to the belts that it was nearly impossible to change speeds. It makes me appreciate the VFD even more!

[@dannmarks]

As usual - Awesome work.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thank you so much 😀

[@transmitterguy478]

Good work Mark, I bought a Vevor 12 x 12 x 6 box like that for my sizzor lift control box and it worked great. I wanted stainless steel but that was the one size they didn't carry. I love your videos. BTY thanks for the drawings of the mill table, I can use them to fix my table.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

You are very welcome.

[@TheAyrCaveShop]

Well done Mark, nice clean install. Adding the accessory 120 outlets was a great idea.. I Like It.... ATB....

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks 👍 The 110v outlets will be good for a power feed too!

[@johncloar1692]

Nice Job!!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@Hoaxer51]

I have to agree with some of the other comments, get a tachometer for your machine. They have small digital ones and it would be handy to know at a glance the speed you’re at and how much it varies with the cut you’re taking. That VFD install really came out nice, I need to do some of things to my small mill.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I just made a small chart that show the speeds at the dial increments of 10 - 90% (320-2200 PRM). I'm sure this will be close enough. It would be interesting to know how much it slows down however. I may do this in the future like I did on my lathe. The indicator ran on 110v and was less than $20

[@Hoaxer51]

@@WinkysWorkshop, Thanks for the reply, that would really be handy already knowing the speeds without having to have a tach handy to use when you’re actually using it. Your videos are always interesting so thanks for putting them up!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@Hoaxer51 Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy my videos!

[@daveticehurst4191]

Great outcome Mark. Two suggstions, next time for big twistdrill holes in sheet metal. treat yourself to some cone cutters. Variable size holes and no nasty burr. You drilled and fitted vent holes, it is still a tightly packed enclosure, there was a large panel hole in the bottom. why did you not fit a fan ? Regards from Australia.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Yep! That was a huge brain fart. I have several and they work great!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Fan... I think natural convection along with the fan in the VFD will be adequate to keep things cool.

[@cyclebuster]

i have a 1 1/2 hp 3 phase that will mount directly on my motor plate and the oem pulley fits. I will look for a 56 frame 1 hp 3ph, i don't want to break mine. But that was an impressive cut.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

You mean milling the motor?

[@BasementEngineer]

VFD's are nice, and pretty cheap nowadays. I would have used one on my Bridgeport M-head with the 1/2 HP 1200 rpm stock motor; unfortunately the motor voltage was too high for that to be practical with my 230 VAC supply. Used a 1 1/2 HP DC motor from a good quality tread mill instead. This motor is rated 1 1/2 HP @ 4000 rpm, thus almost identical to the original motor's performance. (on DC motors the power varies linearly with the speed, thus 1/2 HP @ 1330 rpm). In my "stores" I had an SCR speed controller I tried first with this motor. Unfortunately the motor hummed very loudly at an objectionable noise level to me. For a drill press it may have been ok, but not on a mill which may run for hours on end. I found a PWM controller on Amazon at a dirt cheap price such that I was willing to take a risk. This turned out to be the perfect solution! I did use a PWM on a small gear hobbing machine that followed me home:-)). Its motor was a 1/3 HP 3 phase and I did not want to replace it as it suited the machine very well. The motor voltage was selectable by moving 3 internal contacts. I adjusted these for 220 VAC an all was well.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Small gear hobbing machine??? I need this ! Ha

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Where is the video? 😜

[@BasementEngineer]

@@WinkysWorkshop It was described in Digital Machinist Magazine, Winter 2020. It's an old German machine made in 1953 or so, and a couple of people changed the mechanical gearbox to digital, using an encoder, stepper motor, power supplies, and controller. And a program, of course. On a gear hobber every time a new tooth count is needed an new gear train has to be arranged foe that tooth count. A little tedious for one or two offs. It seems to work very well.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@BasementEngineer I'm sure all the gear ratios would be require a LOT of gears. I was actually thinking about building one with one DP and PA LIKE 16 AND 14.5. I'll probably never do it but it seems like you could establish a set ratio between the cutter spindel and a drive gear and then the driven gear could be the same as the gear you are cutting.

[@BasementEngineer]

@@WinkysWorkshop You are correct. However, you need a different hob (cutting tool) for every PA and DP. But, one hob will suffice for all tooth counts with that PA and DP, unlike toothspace cutters where you need 8 or more. If you have a small universal (ie. the X-axis swivels so you can adjust this to the hob's helix angle) horizontal mill, and using the electrical equipment described in the DIGITAL MACHINIST I referred to, you can hob gears on that machine. Same for a vertical mill where you can swivel the head to the helix angle. Hobs can be expensive when new. However, many are available on the surplus market; I purchased a Module 1, 20 deg, RH, with 8 mm bore, for $50 slightly used. Realize that this hob will produce all tooth counts of that tooth size and pressure angle. My machine is quite a small footprint and does not use much space. If I were to do it again I'd adapt my mill as I described above. The entire hobbing operation of gear tooth cutting is quite quick, and fascinating to watch.

[@robert574]

I've watched some videos where they mount a tach on a mill (it can be elaborate). It's a problem because it has to read the spindle and there's no good way to mount the magnet and sensor. I've thought about it a lot because I want to do it to mine. My thought is to mount a tiny magnet inside a hole in the hollow bottom of the spindle step pulley. Then take one of those long, threaded sensors and pull it apart. Unsolder the little sensor and put it on a cable. Mount the sensor into a piece of plastic to set beneath the pulley or put it in the end of a piece of copper tubing that could be mounted and snaked in from the side and easily bent into position. Copper is not supposed to bother the sensor. Run the cable to the tach box and put the rest of the sensor circuit in a piece of heat shrink and tuck it into the box with the tach. I think it might work.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I have a hand held tach and measured the speeds at ten points (my dial is numbered 1 thu 10) and made a small chart. Quick and easy.

[@robert574]

Or you could do that. I guess there's no reason to get into my laser pointer and fan blade idea... Which now that I think about it would only be useful if you couldn't afford a hand held tach.

[@robert574]

Once you know what all the speeds are and the ranges thru the pulleys, you could get a custom label made. I don't think they are very expensive either for a really nice one and you could add any other switches and lights and just cut them out. Might be nice as a finishing touch.@@WinkysWorkshop

[@robert574]

For a tach, I saw a video where a guy drilled holes up and down one of the flats in the hex top of his drawbar then glued small magnets in the holes. He has the sensor on a hinged bracket that drops beside the bar and then lifts to put a wrench on it. There's always a magnet in front of the sensor as the quill drops. Not poking fun at it. It's a difficult thing to do when there's no room. @@WinkysWorkshop

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@robert574The tach would be super easy on this mill. the spindle pulley flange could be drills and a magnet installed. The belt guard would hole the sensor looking down on the flange. The thing is, I used a handheld tach and made a chart at each 10% on the dial. Easy and effective.

[@robert574]

That turned out really nice. There's not much you can't do is there. I didn't hear any motor noise did it go away under load? The box was perfect looks good. Good job. I flipped the switch on a couple of times when you weren't looking. Hope you didn't mind.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Haha... I didn't notice the switch flipping :o) Yeah, the motor noise got much better. Maybe the load and freewheel effect of the 5.5" pulley dampened it.

[@raykehrhahn]

Well done, Thanks for the tutorial..

[@WinkysWorkshop]

You are welcome!

[@andrewdolinskiatcarpathian]

Nicely done. 👏👏👍🥴

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks! 👍 Love the two videos you posted. I've always enjoyed printing. I'm also a retired printer although very high speed web offset. Still love the old stuff.

[@bradthayer6782]

Great upgrade. Two comments (and full discloser, not an electrician): I am a little concerned about the possibility of wire chafing in the VFD box due to vibration. Might want to wrap some tape around any wires that rub against anything else. Second, the EMI ( electromagnetic interference) from the VFD is pretty intense, especially at low frequency. You might need to shield some of the output wiring more. But overall, bravo!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

You are right about the EMI but I think the enclosure blocks most of it... so far no problem. The only wire I was concerned with it the wire that went under the sheet metal in the back of the box. I taped the edge with so very strong thick tape. I suspect it will be fine. I do need to loosen the VFD and let the wires coming in from the top sit more toward the back.

[@junkmannoparts9696]

Hi I'm doing a lathe right now and i could mount the box to the rear but then it would make the lathe be spaced further away from the wall so i am going to mount my box on the wall close to the outlet and i know there will be a couple of wires that will go from the box to the machine even the extended ribbon cord for the VFD face panel that I'm mounting on the front of the lathe . just a thought but at least it will be in one peace and if you move the mill it will be easy .JM

[@WinkysWorkshop]

That sounds like a good plan.

[@junkmannoparts9696]

Isn't it finished already thanks

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@junkmannoparts9696 Yes I'm done. I just thought mounting the VFD panel away from the VFD was a great idea.

[@junkmannoparts9696]

Yeah after I posted it I realized what you were saying thanks

[@thelimike]

Excellent,a other A1 job. I like it also….. Doing it right or not at all…..

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thank you very much!

[@bryansimon3206]

Great Chanel. Where do you find the index dial plates? I like it

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I ordered it on Amazon with the potentiometer. Thanks amzn.to/3Ojp1Fp

[@t.d.mich.7064]

You are truly a man of many talents! How is the torque at low R.P.M.'s?

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks. So far I have not noticed any but the rated RPM is only 1120. This means a 1/2" HSS end mill running at 700 rpm is still running at 60% of full rated speed. I might notice it if I go slower but I still have 2 slower front belt position if it's an issue. I have not measured the RPM but its super slow if i move the belt.

[@trufix72]

Hey Winky have you decide what position on the pulleys your going to use? I believe you had to move the belt to control the speeds. I'm doing the same thing on my Clausing lathe but not sure what position the belt should be on as a permit position. Hope this makes sense. Great videos too. Love the channel. We are almost a like on doing things.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I should have made an illustration of the belts but let me see if I can answer the question. My objective was to never run the motor under 33% which is 20 hz 3/4" end mills is about the largest I run so the speed needs to be around 320 RPM. My mill has the motor pulley, an intermediate spindle (jack shaft) and a spindle pulley. The original 3 step pulley on the motor was installed with the small pulley toward the motor. Due to the short shaft on the new motor I had to mount a single pulley in the top position. The new pulley had to be large (5.5") because the pulley on the jack shaft was large (about 7 Inch). but this met my objective. I still have the 3 step pulleys on the spindle side, If I need super slow I can move this belt. I can get the 2200 rpm by running the motor over speed (120 hz). On a flat belt drive i would try to use the larger pulley on your spindle, it's less likely to slip. If you have a V belt change this pulley to get the speed range you need.

[@dscott1524]

It seems like a lot of work just for a tiny 3/4 HP motor. About 2 HP seems appropriate to support general machining in a vertical type mill. Now that you have proved the upgrade methodology, are you considering an upgrade to more powerful motor? Cheers.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Considering the mill was originally only 1/2 HP I think the 3/4 is enough. The one HP I had on there never thought about slowing down. I'm sure if I was in a production shop I'd run into limitations but in my home shop using HSS I doubt I'll ever have an issue.

[@garywickliff9102]

How did you determine the pully size combination to use?

[@WinkysWorkshop]

I used the existing pulley chart, measure the speed of the new motor with a tach when running at 100hz and then did ratio and proportion with various pulley sizes to get a top speed of about 2000 rpm. Then I did the same at 20hz and found that the low speed was 300 rpm.

[@dagwood1327]

I like it… too.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks!🙂

[@ronniehall1520]

Nice

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

I like it!

[@WinkysWorkshop]

🙂 Thanks

[@WayneCook306]

I like It 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks Wayne

[@jubiletabustamanteserrano2446]

SEI UN AMICO MAKINA, NON C'È NULLA IN MEZZO A TE

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thats great!

[@jmcc685]

While the electrical code is complicated on this subject, for safety and electrical interference reasons, it is generally a bad idea to run power and low voltage control wiring in the same conduit, or even cable tray.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Interesting and I'm sure you are correct. I actually thought about this while installing the VFD but decided to proceed and take a chance anyway. One reason I did this was simply laziness. Running the wires together kept things simple and compact. The other reason is that I saw this done frequently on motor speed controls in my past job. To be clear, I am in no way a qualified or educated on this subject and this was just my observation and perhaps not correct. It could very well be that some of the wires were shielded or that my memory has failed. Thankfully its working incredibly well. Maybe I got lucky or maybe the 3/4 HP and 220v is not enough to induce a signal in the other wires. Like you said, the code is complicated. Thanks for this info however, it's very much apricated.

[@jmcc685]

@@WinkysWorkshop I installed a KB Electronics drive on my mill and it generally works fine. But I have been able to stall the motor at less than 50% speed, when I should have changed the belt position to maintain enough torque, or used a smaller end mill. Please keep us up to date on how yours performs. There is a whole lot of interest on this subject.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

@@jmcc685 When using HSS endmills with a 1/2" dia. the mill needs to run about 700 rpm. My VFD is running at 45 hz at this speed. I tried pushing it hard with this size mill and I DID hear the mill slow down slightly but I doubt I could stop the motor. I also used a 1-inch mill without issue but did not push it... I suspect this was about 30 hz but did not look. I now have 3 belt position options and I am running it in the fastest position. The next step probably limits my speed to about 1200 to 1500 (have not checked the speeds) so this might be the best range to leave it in for HSS. My current 2050 high end is great for 1/8" carbide however. Still the front belt is easy to move.

[@robert574]

I know you have mixed emotions about adding a tach. I guess my point was that there are some really tiny sensors like 1/8" thick with a screw hole that you could put under the spindle pulley and not have to use one of those large round threaded ones. The magnet could be small also, like 4mm od (0.160"). Those miniature sensors have the same 3 wires and will work directly with the tach counters (the one you used on the lathe) although you might have to splice or solder the 3 little wires to get that connector. Just search for miniature hall effect sensors or transducer and you'll see them. There might even be a smaller counter display. This stuff is all cheap. Give them a company name and they'll send you a sample for free.

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Nah... it's not the money, the one on my lathe was $18. I may do it as some point but its low on my list.

[@robert574]

Same here. Retired now and cleaning out the garage. Give it away or push it to the curb. It's a long drive to goodwill. For many years, I used to buy, trade and sell tools with several good friends at the flea market. God, I loved it. They're all gone now (passed away, moved away) and Walmart even built a store on the property. Always had a big shop at work so didn't need it at home. Once I get some room in the garage, things will improve, I think. @@WinkysWorkshop​

[@robert574]

I've been playing with one of those sensors today. It says they are inductive, and this one has a 4mm sensing range. It was interesting that it didn't need a magnet, just a piece of steel, and the steel worked better than the magnet. It detected 4mm with the steel and only about 3mm with the magnet. I even stacked the magnets to make it stronger and it was still the same. Wait, I need to test aluminum. hmm.. about 2mm with aluminum. I didn't see that coming. I guess if you got too close to any metal it would just stay on. Ok, brass... yep, 3mm.@@WinkysWorkshop​

[@donmadere4237]

👍🏻

[@WinkysWorkshop]

Thanks