I Exposed Another Trackmania Cheater

Yes, this was streamed a year ago...
You should watch me live: / wirtual
Main Channel: / wirtual
Clips Channel: / wirtualclips
Twitter: / wirtual
Edited by
/ buckleyspants
Thumbnail by
/ danu_png
#Wirtual #Trackmania #speedrun

[@cyb3r._.]

he actually had me until 4:55 ;-; I thought bro was gonna call racehans or jan a cheater 💀

[@IzzyIsntReal]

Yeah I was worried for a sec but no way that’d be second channel content

[@RubyPiec]

@@IzzyIsntReal And would probably not be called "I Exposed Another Trackmania Cheater", more like "I Exposed The Second Biggest Trackmania Cheater"

[@whateverthewheel6623]

Racehans is my goat I was so scared that wirtual was gonna say it was him

[@zdelrod829]

That would have been a huge plot twist.

[@tylerprime6741]

Bro I was thinking the same thing, like, you aren't gonna somehow drop the nuke that racehans or Jan is a cheater right? Nope, just some random person

[@ryansmock2717]

Why do Riolu jokes never get old? They age in slow motion

[@vitorrodriguez4278]

cringe

[@ryansmock2717]

@@vitorrodriguez4278 So is cheating for a decade for profit.

[@sandmars7]

Ok that joke wasn’t half bad. Ngl it would have made me chuckle if I had been in a better mood.

[@Erksah02]

L+ratio​@@vitorrodriguez4278

[@Zixivyxity]

don’t listen to the haters i actually laughed at this

[@Nitidus]

PSA: It's not about 92BOB, guys.

[@wttgr]

thanks

[@ScrapyDo0]

mmm its just another witch hunt

[@SimonBauer7]

same Witch hunt though.

[@jordyboofs5870]

Dammit alright thanks

[@RAAZR-]

Bunch of people that know nothing about top level TM, (myself included), crying witch hunt despite the top 10 all agreeing that the inputs and lines seems sus.. almost as if the real witch hunt is from commenters like you huh@@ScrapyDo0

[@Cordovan]

ngl i was SUPER freaking scared that RaceHans was the "cheater" in question the first few minutes of this upload... 😭😭

[@BadChess56]

Same

[@TakumiJoyconBoyz]

Same. I was like "Brooooo please no!"

[@helmutdergroe9457]

He is Cheat wait 3 month

[@therussiancato]

@@helmutdergroe9457 first of all, get some bitc- i mean grammar lessons second of all, any proof that he's cheating?

[@Dizastermaster.]

That would have for SURE been a main channel vid, if at all

[@marekmak385]

After 3 years I still can not belive it that tortugo is Adam Kajumi

[@samik_456]

yeah he got worse and worse over time

[@kubamaly4070]

ong

[@oh-ox9sj]

it really is tragic

[@MenkoDany]

Brother I had no idea. Because of your comment I learned he lived not far from where I grew up too. Crazy.

[@NaziOfficer666]

Yeah same, i also can't believe he left to become a casual influencer

[@hyperventalated]

As someone who has no idea about any of this or who anyone is, i was trying to predict which of the players was a cheater, and then the third guy came onto the scene with the classic just-showed-up wr.

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

Does that make it fake/cheated?

[@RedRoseKing13]

see this is my biggest issue within TM community, it's pretty much just a tight knit bros club it seems a lot of the time. like if somebody who hasn't chatted with the community or posted hundreds of records ever gets a record or gets into Div1 COTD they are automatically questioned by everybody and assumed a cheater. Like to them it's so unlikely that somebody has grinded away hundreds of hours just by themselves to get one singular record@@Joemamahahahaha821

[@BarackLesnar]

​@@Joemamahahahaha821sometimes. rarely will a cheater take the effort to fake practice and grinding. but when they do it's extra funny

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

@@BarackLesnar So the answer is no… it doesnt make it faked/cheated. If sometimes this does mean it’s cheating, and something it doesn’t, then it s a no. This one fact is not convincing in the slightest towards him cheating. Nothing in this video is convincing that he deserved to have his time removed.

[@gu244]

​@@Joemamahahahaha821 no, they can't say for sure its cheated, but it is suspicious to say the least.

[@PoisonWoah]

wow he moved back to Norway, that's crazy.

[@ethanharr4795]

He still lives in Norway. Definitely not Malta, who would want to live somewhere so temperate and sunny?

[@coaiemandushman1079]

@@ethanharr4795 someone who cannot stand heat, like me for example

[@Blackwing2345635]

@@coaiemandushman1079this. Plus the air temperature is not the only thing countries could provide

[@coaiemandushman1079]

@@Blackwing2345635 tru

[@tmaster2151]

Watch the end

[@brianbethea3069]

When you started out only talking about Racehans and Jan, I went into despair mode wondering which one was a cheater.

[@anubis520]

same

[@CenturionRower]

I'd run a TAS with the EXACT movements without that .01 snap right steer and see if it results in the same, or similar run. Would make a hell of a difference in determining how much that steering input actually affected the game. For all we know its a shitty controller (that, yes, can send false data to the computer, game, etc) and the dude has no way of proving how they did it and just, didnt respond because he knew he would get ass blasted because "oh surely because they can't provide definitive proof means they cheated". Just food for thought. ESPECIALLY if the only basis is "it felt weird" and they didnt use the same ending line, you literally said yourself that its entirely possible it was a "fight or flight" response after taking a bad entry line, could have absolutely been adrenaline from hitting a clean wall bang into a clean shortcut. Honestly, knowing whether or not every other input EXCEPT that minor right steer results in a WR run (assume they let go, and the "snap back" from the stick caused the controller to bug) is a HUGE determining factor and I'm honestly confused no one tried it.... Or they did, it DID result in a WR run and you just decided to not mention that particular fact. I'm not trying to defend the guy, keep in mind I do not care, but "it feels weird" doesnt exactly work in this case when you all are mentioning that it in fact passes the in game test AND your entire grounds for removing the run is 1 minor input that may or may not have actually affected the run. And your clickbaiting a quarter million people into thinking this person is a cheater off of a "feeling". If its cheated and it broke the in-game comp validation, fix the in-game validation, if its a minor, feasible controller glitch (phantom input) yall should AT LEAST do your due diligence in determining whether or not those inputs without the minor right steer give the same output. IIRC the TAS tools are locked down so would that person even have any way of saying "hey it was a controller phantom input, here is proof the run without that input results in a WR"

[@KaavjeSahe]

I did, it made no difference, it instead made the run even faster without that input. That input of that steering made it such that car lost connection to ground for 0.003 seconds and lost acceleration, if the same inputs were taken to account without that sudden shift, the run was completed 0.02 seconds even faster.

[@giusepperesponte8077]

THANK YOU. There is no words for how much I agree with everything you said. I was getting upset watching this, Wirtual clearly doesn’t really get how an analog stick plays. The smooth movements he describes are when you tilt the stick to the top of its housing and use it to guide the stick for smooth steering, the sudden ones can be anything from very slight stick drift which the dead zone isn’t compensating for, or it could be a snap back. It’s not even impossible that it was truly just a precise nudge. There’s absolutely not enough evidence here to remove the record, it’s honestly disgusting. I really can’t add much to what you said, you perfectly captured my same objections while watching this. So refreshing to read after watching this.

[@Evelyn27Official]

@@giusepperesponte8077 unfortunately that's how it is. If you're not part of their best buddies discord club, you don't get to have a record. :/

[@marekvojta9648]

I fully agree with you in normal world if I accuse someone from cheating I HAVE TO PROVIDE evidence to prove I'm right. What Wirtual is saying (and totally disgusting me) is that I can say that someone is cheating and HE HAS TO PROVE HIS INNOCENCE. How the hell is that guy supposed to prove his innocence? Shame on you Wirtual and all of those proplayers which (it seems) cannot loose againts someone or better said noone.

[@Evelyn27Official]

@@marekvojta9648 tbh wirtual is your typical eboy, lots of egotistic shit that you don't notice until you start noticing it and then you can't go back. he has good videos sure, and he's basically the only dd2 streamer on youtube, but damn i wish he were a more decent person

[@Henry.25]

13:08 “If you want to try this never-before-done shortcut” Me looking at my membrane keyboard that cost me $14: That's my chance to shine 😂😂😂😂😂

[@MudakTheMultiplier]

That's the great thing about trackmania nations forever, there really isn't an advantage with any input type.

[@Thrano]

14 Dollars on a keyboard? That's expensive! I got my... *searches for the brand* ISY keyboard for about 6.99 like five years ago.

[@raamy2426]

@@MudakTheMultiplier why ? lol wont a keyboard that take 10 ms less to send input to your car be better ? and is there no steering ?

[@Delimon007]

@@MudakTheMultiplier This is definitely not true. . . It is FAR harder to race on a keyboard where you only have an on/off switch and not way to be precise. It's like saying a controller is competitive with a wheel when it's just not.

[@ZoMTDU]

@@Delimon007 I know only of one game where the keyboard is MUCH faster than a controller or wheel and its in my name :D

[@yanbilleter3174]

It's kind of sad to see that the trust in the community has been destroyed.

[@dotonthehorizon9620]

Every game is now ruined by cheaters. Cheating tools are too easy to get now. It made me stop gaming at all, since its now impossible to know and im always suspicious of everything...

[@aqua-bery]

I feel like the only reasonable piece of evidence is the inputs. The rest are literally just happenstance

[@DrDrao]

I dunno. To me, it looks like a player who's not quite as good at the game as the best of the best, but got lucky with bugs and such. Like the odd lines make sense if he's just worse. The odd input could be a controller glitch. In my mind, there's no way a slowed game speed or a tas makes that kind of input(It's too fast even for a slowed game speed, and there's nonway a tasser leaves that in. The run also didn't look tassed.) In my mind, the thing that makes more sense is that a player who's really good at the game, but not quite that good, started grinding the shortcut before he had the lines down completely, and just happened to get a run where everything lined up.

[@tigertech8865]

If he was trying to contest the take down I would understand that point, but he didn't even try to give an explanation after getting a world record... I think it was the right call

[@DrDrao]

@@tigertech8865 Nah, I definitely think the mods were overeager on this one. Why should he be treated with this much higher of a standard of evidence just because he played a bit differently? Remember, the evidence is, "the lines weren't top player level", and "These two or three frames look suspicious". It wasn't even like the suspect frames were for a particularly important bit. It also cleared the competitive patch, and it's not like they have a reason to believe the patch may have been malfunctioning. Finally, they don't even have any idea of how he might have cheated, or even what was cheated. They really have nothing to go on, outside of suboptimal play, a hardware bug, and vibes.

[@baertorv]

or maybe he just stopped playing and aren't looking at his TMX dms.

[@ww-pw6di]

@@DrDrao The conclusion is then that every single WR run that's been submitted that has a "full steer to one side, followed by instant steer to another side" have to be removed for cheating. That sounds really fun and I can't wait to see wirt crying about it.

[@gradient5319]

A run where everything lines up, from my casual trackmania experience, actually happens sometimes.

[@lordenglish2654]

So one input anomaly and a racing line in the final sector that you don't like constitute solid evidence of cheating? The former doesn't seem robust enough to be considered cheating and the latter seems like a preference issue.

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

I would even say the latter seems like some confirmation bias

[@cebulak941]

yes its enough. he definitely cheated at the wallbang, probably a macro

[@RoachDoggJr435]

@@cebulak941 so he cheated on the easiest part of the map but not on the rest? makes sense 🤡

[@krukblood-axe3649]

@@cebulak941 It really is not enough, or at least it shouldn't be. There's any number of reasons it could've happened, and the guy probably just doesn't care enough to dispute any of it. A lot of people just play the game they like, without giving too much of a crap about what people online think or say. The likeliest reason for the anomalous input is probably a combination of keyboard and controller, both can be connected at the same time. Even a brush of the hand on the keyboard could explain the anomaly, as the inputs get confused.

[@meraldlag4336]

@@RoachDoggJr435wall bang is one of the worst parts of c02

[@billymcmedic4221]

In other examples of being dodgy with inputs, which is what is being accused in this video, it’s not just one small blip but a pattern of behaviour over a number of runs and patterns throughout singular runs that leads to the conclusion that it’s more likely than not that the record was cheated. Using the information you provide on the accused history, let’s paint a picture. An old TMNF player, played it on release, submitted a few scores, but kinda fell away from the game for a long while, only to pick it up again within the last couple of years. They discover a potential shortcut that hasn’t been utilised in a WR record run on this map from other people posting about it, and decides to just sink some time into it to give it a try. They haven’t been religiously hunting the map and, while possibly aware of the optimal lines, hasn’t quite gotten them nailed down. Then one day, they hit a perfect shortcut and desperately try to cling on to the run, small mistake results in a sub optimal line going into that grass corner. We don’t know if that’s their normal line considering the lack of other replays uploaded, or maybe their trying to practice that part more to get it further in line with the optimal run, but whatever, the advantage gained in the shortcut is enough for them to cling on to the lead despite the mistake, and at the end they clutch and get WR. Realising they got WR, they upload it to the leaderboard via the official channels, and it gets verified by the official anticheat. From context clues you give, this individual is not active in the tmnf speedrunning community, not a discord member, not a member of your little clique. And because their not part of an unofficial community, their run gets scrutinised much harsher than anyone else’s simply because of “bad vibes” and “not being a known player”. Let me pause here, does this mean that for someone’s run to be accepted by the community, they must participate in stuff outside of the game itself? And why does the speedrunning community consider itself above the official anticheat? Doesn’t this situation by default mean every single run validated by this anticheat should be considered suspect as well since the community believes that the anticheat is not effective at catching out cheaters? Anyway. How was the runner contacted for comment? What means were employed to get in contact with this runner? You said the run came out of nowhere, so it’s safe to assume this person doesn’t have any known means of contact. Plus, this isn’t even delving into the material accusation itself. If I’m correct, the accusation is that the runner featured used illegal means to go from full left steering to partial right steering within .01 of a second, at that 1 specific wall bang. First question, do you know without any doubt he that the person was using or presenting themselves as solely using a stick controller, where such an input would be impossible? Is it possible action keys were being utilised in some way? Second, as others here have pointed out, can you be certain that there is no possibility that hardware issues such as stick drift cannot in any way be responsible for a momentary blip of weirdness in the logged inputs? Third, in the individuals previously uploaded runs, is there any evidence of similar discrepancies that may establish a history of potential behaviour that could reinforce the accusation being made here? And finally, do you think it is fair to require players to actively participate in a random online community in order for their runs to be accepted even after already being accepted by the official anticheat? Do you not think that this is a form of gatekeeping, where just because someone is unknown means that any records are automatically suspect? How can we trust that you and others in such a community aren’t using your influential positions to secure your own positions and keep away “outsiders”. This reeks of elitism and gatekeeping, and I cannot in good conscience support a KZbinr or a community that participates in such behaviour, to the point of believing themselves to be above the official systems developed by the developers of the game to ensure fair play. I can believe that if any other “more noteable” player had gotten the exact same run, people would see that it had been authenticated and just write off the blip and sub optimal line as being an unlucky bug and a small error that didn’t ultimately matter, and then go and continue hunting the map incorporating the new strategy and combining it with a more optimal start and ending. But no they would rather spend time and effort nitpicking and demanding that someone engage in a community they may have 0 interest in or knowledge off just to justify themselves when they were already vindicated by the anticheat. It’s very possible that they got that run, decided they were done and just moved on, completely unknowing of the shitstorm that would ensue. And finally, what’s the motive here? They uploaded a run, didn’t make a stink on KZbin, Reddit etc on beating the record, just uploaded the run and move on, no attention seeking, no attempting to gain personal glory or praise, just beat the record, probably thought “oh cool, may as well upload that” and then moved on. Motive, means, opportunity. The opportunity is a free space considering it’s the bloody internet, but no motive has been established and no concrete means have been proven by the accusers, just vauge postulations about maybes or what ifs, nothing that could be considered beyond all reasonable doubt.

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

Thoughtful and well said.

[@kwaizy1349]

Not thoughtful and well said - stupid and ignorant is more like it. People cheat for all sorts of reason that seems ridiculous. And coming out of nowhere is not "elitism" it is sound logic. Theese guys have 1000 of hours, on single maps alone, and yet the anticheat is not reliable, it is made by a community member for christ sake, on a old af game. I dont know how they tried to contact him, but considering the massive cheating scandals as of recent this is very sus, and i think they made the right call.

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

@@kwaizy1349 so what in this video convinced you he was cheating?

[@mr.someone5679]

I agree with you 100%

[@johnsonresponse5047]

Well said

[@kerianndoassans]

After the infamous 0/10 yasuo power spike, we have the 10 years pause Jules power spike

[@nyxregime]

💀

[@raulmenraki]

He is not a League of Legend Streamer, please go back to the shadow realm

[@EverSnaxolotl]

@@raulmenraki what, people referring a different game on a youtube channel about a game? How could they?!

[@scarecrowking666]

​@@raulmenraki you must not be fun at parties

[@rikolia]

The guilty until innocent approach, very bold

[@lanbroghini]

It does seem very cliquey. Unless you've been here since 2008 you can't possibly be better than me 😮

[@abeoist]

It's not guilty until proven innocent, though. The input is considered not humanly possible, so that's enough to be proven guilty on it's own. It's more of a: "According to what we think is possible based on tons of data, you're out of line. Prove us we're wrong and you're welcome to have the record" Otherwise you can say that about every cheated record and make an argument that since a person didn't get caught red handed they automatically are innocent. It doesn't work like that.

[@rikolia]

@@abeoist You have 0.25 seconds of "odd looking controls" and a weird angle being taken at a turn, that's ridiculous for an accusation.

[@abeoist]

@@rikoliaIt's not at all ridiculous if you take into consideration the fact that a minute change in controls can avoid a bug or set yourself up for a smooth line that is otherwise very difficult to achieve. In fact take a look at any bug exploits in this game and I bet you can't tell me 0.25 sec doesn't make a difference in any of those. I'm not saying the guy is guilty of cheating for sure. I'm saying the decision makes sense given past circumstances and the 'weirdness' of the lines and inputs.

[@rikolia]

@@abeoist I'm not saying 0.25 can't make a difference in a bug, I'm saying out of 37.94 seconds, there is 0.25 seconds you find suspect and it's not even the part he made a big deal out of. 0.66 percent. 2 years ago, guy sees a wildly flickering UI on a WELL KNOWN player for years and that needs months of investigation, careful consideration of every possible reason as to why that may be and several players coming out for having cheated the exact same way before they're absolutely sure that it was cheating. Now, you find ONE(1) flick on some unknown player, "ah that's good enough get him out of here!" I disagree with such measures and find it bull.

[@Drakoninarius]

Why do we automatucally assume that that guys was not playing for 10 years? He might have been playing other Trackmania games rather then TMNF

[@Zinozad]

This. I play the OG Trackmania games all the time, and although they're different from modern Trackmania, I can definitely set good times without having any activity for the past 10 years in modern Trackmania. I can definitely see myself grind the hell out of a race and post the record only when I've got a 1st place run. It's not even a very hard race. People like Wirtual think they're gods driving the stadium cars perfectly. Bitch please, try doing a perfect run with the desert car which bumps everywhere all the time in unpredictable way. Trackmania 2020 is far easier than the original games.

[@mertletheturtle22]

I disagree with the gun ho mentality within tm. If, given the replay and input data is publicly available AND the only thing you have is a gut feel after 1 year of breaking down the inputs then time to look closer at your values as a community.

[@Apple_Beshy]

Man that is a weak arse evidence

[@DuskTheBard]

and somehow, some way, your grammar ended up being worse. Imagine that.

[@mikayla_collie]

7:05 why does him not posting replays for 10 years mean he quit for 10 years? maybe he just wasn't posting replays... >_>

[@cynart6598]

because this man just has a vendetta with all who dont play the game like the majority of players

[@sebseb9890]

You don't beat a wr without playing everyday and if you're playing everyday you are probably getting top 10 finishes & posting them, talking to people in discords and having fun with the community. Of which none were being done

[@mikayla_collie]

@@sebseb9890 you even said it yourself. "are probably". meaning you just acknowledged that not everyone does that. Being active in a community surrounding a game does not hinder your ability to play them well...

[@riccardoorlando2262]

The non participation in the community and the weird grass line aren't proof, but they are suspicious enough to warrant a closer scrutiny of the replay. To me, if that's all there was, I'd call the record legitimate. However, the teleporting controller input is definitely closer to being proof. Enough, at least, to justify requiring additional proof of the record's legitimacy before allowing it on a leaderboard.

[@tigertech8865]

Pretty sure he means quit as in quit being active and grinding the game. He probably still played it casually

[@themelzymusic]

My old controller did something very similar to this because of a stick drift issue. Not saying that’s what it is, I’m very curious as to why they never talked to anyone about the record tho

[@WadaMalone]

you can't set a record with a drift issue controller controller though

[@WadaMalone]

@@brunch. It's like setting a world record in 400m sprint on a sprained ankle. Perfectly possible if your legs move fast enough. So who knows, maybe he did win a sniper competition with a crooked barrel. I just see it as an additional suspicious circumstance though

[@decklanappelbee7397]

​@@WadaMalonestick drift has almost no effect as long as you hold the stick centred which most people I know that play on controller do

[@AcidAdventurer]

​@@WadaMalone some stick drift can not exist at all except momentarily after releasing the stick as it rebounds to center. Some can only happen when the thumb stick rests a certain way and you can adjust it to where it'll stop completely. Some only happens when the thumb stick is stuck pressed down a little after using the button part and you have to pull it out to get it to stop. And as it has been pointed out stick drift does nothing (unless it is really really bad) as long as you're actively engaging the stick or holding it centered.

[@mavor101]

Bro what is wrong with the Trackmania community. See a new random WR and they go hunting for "strange things". Like.. chill out rofl. Controllers can malfunction from time to time as well, which would explain a "teleport" like this here and there.

[@rainmanthegoat]

Just gonna throw this in there..... I'm pretty sure you drove multiple insane runs w/ your custom input controller so lets take down those off the LB. Then every other WR on the LB that is anon because you can't believe it's true. If it passes the competitive patch and nadeo doesn't ban the person. Leave it up and have some crazy person hunt the skip.

[@beckpfeilsticker4744]

I was expecting more proof kinda clickbaity I usually love your stuff but calling him a cheater idk about all that

[@1e1001]

i think that weird grass line is probably just like, their own strategy. if someone was faking a wr they'd probably try to make it look more legitimate / blend in more by following strategies used by other top players, but having their own method to get through an area also just makes sense. that weird controller snap is definitely suspicious but unless it's what actually lets the shortcut be possible it could just be a lag spike or similar, i've had tmnf get pretty stuttery for me in the past

[@darthgorthaur258]

Indeed. This stinks of them throwing a tantrum because somebody not in their little clic came along and beat them...and it never once crossed their minds that maybe its because he isnt doing the same thing as them is why he got the wr...😂😂😂

[@KaavjeSahe]

TBH making a controller press isn't like inhumane or something humans cannot do in like 1 hundredth of a second. Chess players play 50 moves long games in 1 second, in a mode called hyperbullet, and Magnus Carlsen makes moves with mouse in like 3 or 4 thousandth of a second. I personally make such moves in like Twelfth-thousandths of a second. If he was seeing my games or that of any chess player, he would also call them cheater, thinking making moves across a board in 3 thousandths of second isn't possible.

[@ww-pw6di]

Lest we forget controllers are garbage, especially the bargain bin brands and they experience all kinds of weird outputs. This video was an exceptionally shit take from him.

[@schwingedeshaehers]

are you sure, that it is without premives? ​@@KaavjeSahe

[@mp7311]

@@KaavjeSahe "Magnus Carlsen makes moves with mouse in like 3 or 4 thousandth of a second." Absolutely not. Stop making shit up. The reason super GMs can play that fast is because they pre-move. The fastest recorded reaction time ever is .1 seconds. 10 times slower than the 1hundreth you claim, and 100 times slower than supposedly magnus lmao.

[@glub1381]

Anyone else remember the good old days when you needed actual evidence to get a run taken down due to alleged cheating? Now it seems any newcomer setting a record is automatically guilty until proven innocent. This dude got his run taken down over a different line and ONE suspicious input. One. His controller could have bugged and sent a weird input, among countless other rational explanations for that, but with the current paranoia and mob mentality running rampant in the community Jules was doomed from the start. This is just sad.

[@MightyMango94]

I think it would help if you explained how he cheated cause saying the input is weird for this 0.01s window is hard to understand how they would change things for the course of the entire run if thats all still played manually. Are you saying its a TAS?

[@aaronburr956]

They dont know what caused it, which is the problem. Its a weird input theyve never seen before at a suspicious point in the run, and jules didnt even try to explain it. Someone said they could be using a program that drove the wallbang portion for them, which would explain the weird input. I dont know if its possible, but thats why jules needs to give an explanation

[@inerpiece]

Guilty until proven innocent... I guess a new approach...

[@christianmoore7932]

Yeah this dude got cheated

[@619tmFALCON]

Hm, I don't think it's exactly that, because there's a few weird things, and since it was not enough proof it was neither guilty nor innocent. It just was that more evidence was required, and it was never provided.

[@RigRacers]

@@619tmFALCON there was no evidence in the first place, its all just profiling to have an excuse to look deeper, and still finding nothing, so he makes a video publicly calling him a cheater to instead drag his reputation through the dirt and ruin any come up he might've had.

[@mricci07]

Thats simple, if someone with a weird-ass history in the game has a suspected record, they should prove they arent guilty. If an olympic athlete is suspected of using illegal substances to gain an advantage, they must prove they are innocent, otherwise they cannot compete. Same logic here

[@GHFMFTS]

@@mricci07 they don’t have weird history though. Why do they have to post records and participate in the community when you have clowns like virtual claiming everyone’s a cheater because he caught one 7 years ago

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

This video is entirely unconvincing.

[@musicaddicted777]

It's not foolproof that's for sure but just by that one input we can infer A LOT, how can you explain the controller like gradual steering inputs and then in contrast a pin perfect, non gradual steering input? It's physically impossible on a controller, well i at least I couldn't explain if i was the player trying to prove it as clean but I definitely have an explanation or two: first, he macroed that specific input at that exact time or most likely he recorded the run in slow motion AND macroed in the input

[@ladian5475]

@@musicaddicted777 Yeah but why would he cheat that singular, seemingly insignificant input? Genuine question I don't know this game very well

[@rockman1942]

@@musicaddicted777 people deleted that weird input and the result are even faster than the uploaded one, and please google the impossible speed run of mario 64, some skip is impossible until a electron from space crashed your chips in the timing exactly u needed, thats just lucky

[@vilian9185]

​@@ladian5475maybe he didn't want to get that start bounce perfectly every run(that bouce is hard) and the first part of the run he feeds the game these inputs, and he edited the script in that part to get the perfectly bounce, and after that he plays normally

[@RickyPro888]

I was hesitant until the steering inputs

[@Skonkgasm]

People were definitely crying about this in a discord and blowing up the mods dms with all kinds of tinfoil hat and threatening to leave the community and tell others to as well if the time didnt get removed.

[@adamcummings20]

God that's a depressing thought for good players who happen to not be in the little famous streamer club

[@wilfreddv]

Source: salty little kiddo

[@mikayla_collie]

idk about this one man. seems like you got someones records wiped with no proof because they beat your friends time... >_> kinda scummy using your platform like this, especially having no proof at all.

[@isk8atparks]

cringe video, you didnt even expose anyone here. You just made accusations with flimsy proof. Maybe if you retitled the video to potential cheater it would be fine, but you are just assuming this guy is guilty and going straight out the gates online saying he is a cheater. Just weird all around man. Unless YOU have actual proof, i would just delete this video, its a bad look Also YOU did not expose the cheater you egomaniac, it was the community 🤢

[@rockman1942]

yes, it make me feel sick on him

[@cime62]

Threatening players that their record will be deleted if they remain anonymous is morally awful. Being anonymous on the web is a right, and you should not get punished for that.

[@m4rt_]

I don't think they are wanting Jules to reveal their identity. From how I understand it, they want Jules to explain how they got inputs like that legitimately. Though I do agree with you, anonymity on the web is a right.

[@mricci07]

You can keep your anonimality and still validate your World Record. This is the same thing as if an olympic athlete is suspected of using illegal substances to gain an advantage, this athlete must validate their innocence before competing. I would rather trust veterans of this game than anyone else on doing decisions about this game. What are the chances that, on the run of your life, your controller decides to randomly "have a malfunction" and change direction in 1 frame, and somehow this malfunction only happens in this run, along the fact that many other known people of the community that grinded this record and never got any similar result.

[@sorrowandsufferin924]

Nobody asked for identity. Also, we're talking about a guy who regularily uploaded to the records 10 years ago. He's certainly no stranger to the internet. Wirtual, the leaderboards, and the community have been asking for an explanation as to how this run was achieved, and proof that it's legitimate.

[@lownoiz]

@@sorrowandsufferin924 random guys asking to "explain inputs" is much more awful and unacceptable than asking for identity. who tf is wirtual or those (tm-exchange?) mods to debate with?? this continuous witch hunt is pure madness.

[@pulyps20sf]

@@sorrowandsufferin924they don’t need proof that it’s legit. They need to prove that it’s fake. The fact that the run got removed is insane

[@cHeLiosss]

not uploading for 10 years means that he didnt play TM at all for 10 years? interesting.

[@Moti27x]

Seems a bit salty to me tbh. They got beat by someone that isn’t in their “clique” of known players so just assumed he cheated because he did something different to them. He passed the patch so either find out how he cheated or leave his record, not really fair just to out someone as a cheater with 0 proof

[@ecafireball2766]

They had enough proof, those inputs aren’t humanly possible, and as such, are highly unusual. Give an explanation or the best option is to remove it.

[@Moti27x]

@@ecafireball2766 can’t accuse someone of cheating without knowing how they did it

[@andrewperry5662]

They had no proof just things that they couldn’t explain

[@DrDrao]

@@ecafireball2766" The inputs aren't humanly possible" When referring to a few frames long input completely inconsequential to the record.

[@6karnex9]

​it's not about it being inconsequential, it's just straight up impossible to go from steering full left to about 50% right in one millisecond AND hold this exact steering value without a slight deviation for some time on a controller, unless it was modded in some way. Both modding a controller or making a program to feed the game these steering values would invalidate the run hence the cheating accusation. When even a slight and unimportant part of the run is cheated you HAVE to at least ask yourself a question "if this one part is faked, what would stop a person from faking other parts or even the whole run?"

[@xKrizel]

1:50 „This is a full three thenth of a second fater than that“ might be the most Trackmania sentence i‘ve ever heard 😂💀

[@grimreefer213]

That’s a massive amount of time in trackmania

[@LeyvatenLoop]

3 tenths is a lot in normal racing too. On a track where 1 lap is usually around 2 minutes for example, being 3 tenths slower per lap means you'll be almost a full second further behind every 6 minutes, and that builds up to a gargantuan gap very quickly. On some racing series, like Brazillian Stock Car (spec series with tube frame chassis and NA V8s on normal road circuits) qualifying times are sometimes so tight that the entire grid is less than 3 tenths apart

[@StevenHawkingsSpitrag]

I was gonna say, 3 tenths of a second are rookie numbers in f1 and motoGP 😂 (unless you’re verstappen😭)

[@Exponaut_R-01]

TMNF is one of the most competitive games ever to not use milliseconds.

[@lonesome3958]

Atleast tm2020 changed that

[@RAP4EVERMRC96]

So actionkeys are not allowed? I don’t get it

[@CalculatedRiskAK]

Action keys don't exist in TMNF. I'm not sure how they performed their input, but going from full steer to 25% or so in the opposite direction in .01 seconds, for .04 seconds after that, is suspicious. I'm undecided on which camp I side with, however. If it's just one or two instances that seem a little bit suspicious then it's hard to say "cheated".

[@RAP4EVERMRC96]

@@CalculatedRiskAK I thought it was legal in TMNF to use third party controller adjustment tools to limit steering etc. Wirtual has mentioned that several times already. Especially when talking about rally and snow car, he said more than once that it is the way how the respective communities drive. So "action keys" are only illegal in the stadium environment?

[@aaronburr956]

​@@CalculatedRiskAK Dont forget the radio silence from jules. The tackmania community didnt want to delete the record, but they didnt really have a choice.

[@Slandi]

Lets just put everyone that isnt recording themselves 24/7 in prison aswell

[@CreeperBeatzMC]

The video is really high quality and I agree with the final verdict of removjng it from the leaderboards, but i feel cheated with this title. 1. You didn't expose him. It was a community effort. 2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case.

[@A-ii5dp]

2.We dont know if he actually cheated. His case is a bit like having a trial and losing by default, because you didn't go to it. But that doesn't mean you actually broke the law, it just means that you lost the case. Its more like losing because all the evidence points to you cheating, and you failed to offer any defence. Not quite the same as you're suggesting which is a loss by default in a trial which could go either way.

[@xarin42]

Yeah, I can see removing it from the leaderboards. That's the way they are supposed to work. You don't show records unless you are sure and whatnot. But saying it is definitely cheated? One weird input in an unhelpful place could be explained by other things.

[@BadChess56]

I do feel annoyed that the title says HE exposes the cheater, because it wasnt just him (as you said) but i think the evidence is clear. Hes definitely a cheater.

[@Ariamaki]

I don't know what part of "Literally biologically physically impossible inputs" sounds like "we don't know" to you, but please get off the Internet.

[@A-ii5dp]

@@xarin42 The problem is there literally isn't any 'other thing' which can explain it though. And its not just a 'wierd' input, its an impossible input. I feel like this is a problem of people not really knowing what is what and thinking that if you are ignorant, so is everyone else.

[@Sharzer_]

All of the people saying nice vid after 30 seconds 😂😂

[@cosmicwonderer6269]

Nice comment

[@alphahawk325]

Nice reply ​@@cosmicwonderer6269

[@alphahawk325]

​@@cosmicwonderer6269 nice reply

[@KagedDJ]

nice vid

[@FatManEirik]

They know🤷‍♂️

[@alphahawk325]

Thank god i thought it was racehans

[@AllarionTalfwyn]

me too. IO like racehans

[@n3uro84]

Just going to preface that I don't know who Jules is, nor have I played TMNF in about 5 years since I can't get it to run on my rig. Of course, cheating is not to be taken lightly when it comes to competitive gaming or speedrunning, I wholeheartedly agree. However, the title is kind of slanderous. Cheating wasn't proven, only suspected. It was deleted because the legitimacy was "questioned", but not substantiated with proof. Sure, the inputs looks shady, but there could be an explanation to it, especially if it happens once in the entire run. I feel the word "suspected" should be added in the title. Just my opinion though.

[@mentyron3635]

Thing is, this is a year old stream as written in the description. Whether this means that new stuff came about it and Jules really cheated with proof, I don't know, and I honestly just watch Wirtual to fall asleep so I personally don't care, but I have to agree that the title seems very extreme.

[@Slimmeyy]

To be fair, Jules had an entire year to respond to any messages. He did not.

[@bappochan6615]

Other games catch cheaters for even smaller cues, all for splicing. Be it everything looks normal but 1 input, or timer, or object is slightly off it’s invalidated. That weird input can only be explained by using a keyboard for a single split second to tap, and in tmnf keyboard is only 100% steering. So either that’s all controller/wheel (which makes that input impossible to achieve), or it was used with an edited steering value on keyboard for that 1 specific tap. Which is an odd place to remove your hand from controller, to tap a key, and then go back to controller. And even if that is what he did the edited keyboard value makes this run illegitimate

[@Gwp_Gamin]

@@Slimmeyy to be fair Jules shouldn't really have to do that, as mods and other players should prove beyond a questionable doubt that the run was cheated, not the other way around.

[@salty3567]

@@Gwp_Gamin He did have to do that as an uncertainty is clearly shown in the video. That input is impossible to achieve on controller and wheel within such a timeframe, and the other inputs are all partial steering which you cannot do on keyboard.

[@zami001001]

Playing devils advocate for moment, that suspicious inputs seem like just letting go of the stick entirely and letting it bounce past the deadzone of the controller. I don't know if the reply would pick it up like that but its the only idea I could think of. I don't know if the run was legit or not but thats not for me to decide.

[@arkadyshersky8704]

You'd still have a frame or two of the stick springing back from full left.

[@zami001001]

@@arkadyshersky8704 I think he said the interval for the recording was 0.1s, which to me sounds possible if its timed well. I didn't test it obviously, but even if I did it would vary controller to controller anyway.

[@arkadyshersky8704]

@@zami001001 Fair point.

[@Blackwing2345635]

@@zami001001not tenth, hundredth. Replays are recorded at 100 inputs per second.

[@fabians7751]

A bounce would show differently. Thats basic physics. If it would bounce that fast from 100% to -25% or similar values, it would also need to bounce away from that -25% just as fast, as a controller stick works like a pendulum. However, we can see that input being held for a small timeframe with apparently perfect accuracy, if I understood wirtual correctly.

[@Piman1607]

It feels unfair to proclaim the run as cheated without any real concrete proof. I feel like calling it unvalidated is fair but i dont thing its right to say cheated without sufficent evidence.

[@delphzouzou4520]

People and Trackmania asked for proof it wasn't cheated and they had no answer. It should be easy to show other runs you made while training, things like that.

[@Piman1607]

@@delphzouzou4520 i dont disagree that its suspicious. However there's not enough proof to say they cheated. Just because they didn't prove their legitimacy doesn't mean they are cheating. I think labeling the person a cheater is unfair, even if they are highly suspicious. I dont even disagree with removing the time, they had ample time to help the investigation.

[@delphzouzou4520]

@@Piman1607 Yeah, in front of a jury it's not enough to convict, but according to the elements we have in our possession, you and me know what it is.

[@tmaz9474]

@@Piman1607But there _is_ enough proof. As stated in the video, that series of inputs is not humanly possible if all you're using is a controller. *Not humanly possible* . That's all the proof needed. Of course, there might be other technical explanations for why this happened, but in that case it is on them to prove it. And as mentioned, Jules did not offer any explanation for how these inputs happened even a year after being questioned.

[@schwingedeshaehers]

​@tmaz9474is there any evidence , that jules received the questions?

[@nikcaha6484]

Ok hear me out. What if he didn't cheat😮

[@_Augie]

What if he did :O he was given a chance to prove himself. I don't know about you but if I got a WR and it was flagged I'd do anything to prove it legit.

[@Nostr45]

I think thats the wrong way. They should’ve proven that he cheated. Not the other way around

[@slimlacy2]

@@Nostr45 But they did prove there was something in the run, that can't be explained by normal human input. That would be considered cheating, UNLESS someone has a good explanation for it. Otherwise it'd be too easy to upload a TAS speedrun as a legit speedrun if the burden of proof is hard evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

[@had2lyk]

@@slimlacy2i agree, but at the same time there was only 1 input problem compared to the WHOLE RUN so for his run to be deleted entirely for that 1 input is kinda crazy

[@kelvinlee1469]

@@had2lyk True, it's disheartening that a whole run was invalidated due to a single suspicious input, but I think that being that strict is entirely necessary, being at the absolute peak levels of play, and especially with the game's history of cheating scandals. He also had a chance to prove himself legitimate, but didn't.

[@VilleLiski]

One irregular input can be just bugging controller. Especially if it's not hall effect controller.

[@Mulakulu]

The title's definitely clickbait. They're not guilty until proven so. They could have driven those racing lines due to lack of experience or just not looking at others' runs, and they could have gotten the input anomaly from a controller malfunction or some communication error between the controller and the PC or some software error on the PC. Until this is proven false, you can't say they're exposed as a cheater

[@criticareful]

Man, first the doxing video and now this. The title of the video is "I exposed another cheater". Well, you didn't. You just thought it was cheated and got it deleted. So first the bar was: It needs to pass the competitive patch, then it's a valid record! So now it's only a record if you publicly explain to Wirtual how you did it? Are you serious? Especially you of all people should know how those inputs can easily be achieved. Just play with a controller and if you want to hard steer hit a digital input. It's not that hard! That fully explains the inputs and isn't cheating as far as i know. You didn't expose a cheater my dude, you are just shaming a person of whom you don't know if he hasn't done anything wrong just because "he's doing something none of us ever would". The only thing he might have done is having macroed an AK and the direction button. But that is still a grey area. I hereby question all Wirtual records until he publicly explained how he did each and every one of them. And then let's say racehans gets to decide if it gets deleted or not. That's how it should work now, right?

[@-Mintyy]

So happy to see someone else echoing my exact opinion. Nobody understands Wirt literally called dozing clever and was upset it failed smh 🤦🏻‍♂️ wtf is wrong with these people man, someone who’s not a big face or in the community apparently isn’t allowed to have a record and will be called a cheater if one millisecond has an explainable oddity. Also dude lives in Ukraine and nobody knows his socials so how did they even try to reach out.

[@KaavjeSahe]

@@-Mintyy There's no discord in Ukraine. They said, they reached to him on Discord, but, after the Russian Invasion Discord stopped all of its services in Ukraine

[@GHFMFTS]

The Saltiest Gamer Exposes a Better Player

[@zachf6466]

I'm quitting this game. It was when they used his lack of response as evidence that did it. If I got a WR on this game, I would not have time to stand trial to a bunch of dorks who have time to go frame by frame through my record.

[@failtasticful]

Just to weigh in my opinion here as someone definitely not knowledgeable in the minutiae of TMNF inputs and records etc - I don't think the majority of resistance to this video is based on the legitimacy specifically of this run, but the manner and spirit in which it seems Wirtual and the others dealt with it. I believe if there is a competitive patch that is meant to 'validate' runs, no run that passes that patch should ever be removed manually without some change to the competitive patch following immediately after. If Wirtual and the admins believe beyond a reasonable doubt that this run was cheated, no record posting should be allowed *full stop* until the competitive patch - the tool specifically created to ensure validation of runs - is reviewed and modified. If no flaw or weakness is found in the patch, then there are much bigger problems to worry about than the C02 record. Even if no positive change can be made to the patch, if they would require this player to provide 'evidence' to prove the legitimacy of the run, that evidence should be standardised and required of all players - no matter their tenure in the scene. Without that crucial step in the investigation, the moderation of the leaderboards is no better than it was prior the introduction of the competitive patch - a bunch of old school players, albeit incredibly skilled and knowledgable ones, deciding for themselves which records they like and which they don't. I wouldn't think that any of them, let alone Wirtual, would use that privilege to knowingly reject a completely legitimate run, but I believe that it would be just as negative an outcome as unknowingly allowing a cheated record on the leaderboard. To draw a parallel to athletics for example, imagine a brand new athlete runs a WR 100m time that noone thought possible - passing all drugs tests along the way. Would it be fair to expect them to provide additional evidence, eg their food and drink intake for the last month, without asking the same of all other athletes until the drug tests can be reviewed and updated if necessary? Whilst it's definitely an exaggeration of the situation, the concept of innocence until proven guilty is one fundamental to judicial systems around the world. Cases in TMNF records are of course more of a science than subjective and contextual legal cases, but I believe everyone would feel much more comfortable if at least the spirit is captured - of treating everyone exactly the same until they are proven to have cheated beyond a reasonable doubt.

[@jpa3974]

Good, smart comment.

[@randomusermaximuss]

The truth is the inputs appear to be inhuman; hes guilty. They gave a chance to prove otherwise. The anticheat is a bit lenient intentionally to not catch random people, but the inputs are obvious. Dude cheated.

[@randomusermaximuss]

@@brunch. If I tell you I can make a man fly with my mind and then show a sketchy video of a man flying are you going to take it at face value? No, I did something no one has seen before outside of instances where there was fraud. You'd ask for more evidence. Ask how I achieved it. Request that I explain what was involved in my ability to make someone fly. Here we have someone who used inputs that have never been seen outside of instances of fraud. Is it possible the inputs are legit? Maybe, but nobody has seen it. If the runner could show how those inputs may've occurred then it'd go up as a record. They asked for an explanation, details, anything, but got radio silence. In the past when people have come out with new input devices or legitimate skill they have shown it. Its why hand cams and audio with runs are required by other speed running groups. Here they have a set of seemingly fraudulent inputs and the runner went silent.

[@randomusermaximuss]

@@brunch. No, inputs similar to those have been seen before as was noted in the video. They come up when people play the game at slow speed and pass it off as normal. That's why the mods pulled the run; it looks exactly like cheating.

[@jules4631]

Bruh stop defaming me we both know I've never played tmnf :(

[@abhinavbabuks354]

stop

[@personious_k]

No one can trust you anymore

[@kitthekat6844]

Thanks for the closure at the end of the video!

[@julz6077]

bruh when he showed racehans my heart kinda dropped notgonna lie

[@arieltm4925]

He wouldn't make a video on his second Channel if it was hans

[@Carson_Neiss]

Here is my theory that would explain the run. If Jules is using TAS tools capable of a save state it seems that the point where the inputs go crazy is where the save state is loaded. They probably were lightly steering upon loading the save state to try to get a better line without realizing it would show on the replay. It comes right after the wall bang which I assume is a point of high variance that probably takes a number of tries to get right, and based on other details it seems this is a somewhat inexperienced player that probably doesn't want to retry the run just to get a good wall bang when the shortcut is that difficult. So by loading after the wall bang the player only has to get a good landing for the shortcut and finish with enough space in front of the record. I can't really explain the weird line on the grass to dirt transition, but it is likely due to the players inexperience and some preference to the alternate line. I find this HIGHLY LIKELY to be cheated. The only explanation outside of a save state would be some alternate steering input. It seems Jules is using an analog input for most of the run but at the anomaly, they would have to switch from the normal analog input, to another input. For example going from using a controller joystick to pressing a keyboard key or controller button which would do a soft right input as seen. There are many other ways this could be done, but it seems odd to need a specific amount of right steering at that point in the run. I assume sticking to a normal analog input would not lose time compared to the inputs seen in the run so why would anyone need a specific soft right steering input like that. Seems really fishy and more complicated than the save state explanation. I don't know anything about Trackmania TAS tools but if anyone could let me know if they have save states that could be used in a run and pass validation, please let me know so I know that my theory might be possible. DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing Jules of cheating and acknowledge the possibility that the run is legitimate. This is merely discussion on how the run could have been performed and considers cheating methods as well as non-cheating methods that the run could be achieved. i am not a Trackmania run validation expert. These are only my opinions.

[@leonardschungel2689]

I dont think they have savestates in TAS tools but they can replay inputs in super speed to get back to the point of the track. That could be used. Safestates was my first thought to. Play until the wall bang and find the correct inputs get a good exit without much speed loss. Then savestates to avoid the landing bug in the shortcut and another savestate for the difficult transition to dirt. Other top players dont use his weird line because it tilts the car and you get a slow down. If you can safestate you can retry that section until you dont get a slow down.

[@ElQuintoVv]

joystick drift its more realistic, and if he dont play for like 10 years...

[@jasonb6570]

@@ElQuintoVvJoystick drift doesn't account for the binary inputs we saw in that slow-mo.

[@Unkn4wN_TM]

​​@@jasonb6570 It does. I've had stick drift in the past in other games where the input change was instantaneous, for example I'm moving it to the left, but the input jumps to the right in a split second with no analogue curve. Really only happens with controllers that are old and used a lot tho, since the more common stick drift has a curve and only drifts to where you're moving the stick or drifts when the stick is idle. Anyways, I did really use to have a controller that had teleport like stick drift and it was very bizarre and annoying to me. No idea why it happens, but I assume if the stick wears enough, sometimes when you move it, it can touch the sensor on the other side and cause an instant teleport kinda like if you touch your phone screen with one finger and then from another place. I don't know why it happens like I said, but I know it can happen, so as long as there is no additional proof of this record being cheated, I am a firm believer it is fully legit

[@filipkohout4704]

​@@Unkn4wN_TMIt still seems really fishy, because why would you grind a record and then just ignore everyone, when your record is at stake. Its just weird

[@baertorv]

It seems so whack that the moderators can just remove any replay and have the burden of proof of the inputs of a multiple year old record be on the player. Seems like they should rework their competitive patch instead of hunting players down like that.

[@wilfreddv]

If they can't explain it how can they add a metric to the patch?

[@DynamicProGamer]

I don’t really get the point about his set up at the end. It’s literally slower than the normal set up so why would that be evidence he’s cheating?

[@nickroitman6743]

I avoided watching this video because i'm starting to dislike the cheating scandals on this channel. But after I decide to watch it, I dislike it. I don't think there's enough proof the guy cheated and it's not a hardware issue (if you are really sure it is not, should have said it). And above everything, why uploading this now after a whole year if there's nothing new? After Riolu, TM community changed too much.

[@ScruffyMopplidge]

YOU are accusing HIM YOU have the burden of proof. YOU provide the proof. If him being silent is enough to make your claim wobble, then silence is his RIGHT, and YOU need to better reinforce your claim.

[@flapjacki9579]

Innocent until proven guilty

[@mricci07]

So, let's suppose that some guy uploads a TAS, which passes the competitive patch, gets a WR and never speaks to the community again, are they are innocent forever?

[@flapjacki9579]

@@mricci07 yes, if there is no proof for the contrary. But a TAS should be easily detectable.

[@mricci07]

@@flapjacki9579 Not really, Riolu TAS'ed for 10 years and didnt get caught lol. People will do anything to not get detected by anti-cheat If a record gets suspected, it will be removed until proven innocent. It's better to assure that the LBs are clean If the person is cheating, because If they are and they only ban them until they find more proof, the LBs would stay dirty probably forever

[@kyle784]

@@flapjacki9579 A TAS is detected by unusual inputs. Things like instantly changing directions within an inhumanly fast time like this video shows. Innocent until proven guilty is an ideal that is not achieved in law where people can receive life sentences while innocent in rare cases. The fact you want higher than life standards for this game indicates you value Trackmania records over human lives. Reconsider.

[@RayIock]

That steering input looks like if you're driving on a controller and your finger slipped off of the knob and wiggled the other way a little I think this is a little bit of a witch hunt, a guy got lucky, nothing looks wrong about that run, and you're turning Trackmania into a bunch of Elitists where nobody else is allowed to shine

[@decklanappelbee7397]

I play on controller and I don't think that his joystick would go from full steering lock to 20-30% in the opposite direction in 0.01 seconds a more reasonable explanation would be switching from dpad steering to joystick but even then the timing is really questionable

[@hashtagornah]

You make me care about things I don't care about.

[@Goat_gamering]

Wait a second... Wirtual is Trackmania advertisement that works?

[@lonesome3958]

Same I way too invested in this discussion that Im not even affected by

[@lampoilropebombs0640]

He is literally the reason why I downloaded trackmania. No kidding.

[@lonesome3958]

@@lampoilropebombs0640 same

[@Yahula1edits]

So the elitist community of Trackmania FWO people wont allow nonames to hold records is what im getting from this

[@TheInfectous]

that's okay, some special kids think math class is actually abstract art and start scribbling random shit on their papers, we all have different experiences.

[@baertorv]

Also your title makes it sound like you actually proved someone cheated, which you definitely did not. Having a record removed on a hunch and a "bad feeling" isn't proof at all, so you got a potentially legitimate (or potentially cheated) record removed from the leaderboards because you have a big audience. Not to mention that the thumbnail isn't even correct, as there is no mention of the account being closed?

[@-Mintyy]

Yea I never agreed or understood when people called wirtual immature and that he causes issues in the community untill recently. Even with the 92bob video, just bc no one knows who it is people were trying to dox and Phish him and wirtual called that clever and smart. Like bro what the fuck is wrong with yall

[@lordofmagnusfolia8024]

It was most certainly Riolu's 34th secondary account he had made just to spy on Wirtual, like the obsessed stalker he is, staying all day in his room, thinking only about Wirtual 24/7. Right?

[@ra1nmaker001]

def a bit sus that he didn't provide proof of this inputs, but there's no proof of cheating either, presumption of innocence prevails

[@CookieIsntAvailable]

"he beat us good players so we got him taken off the leaderboard and he has not come back" yeah I also would not entertain a community that acts like that.

[@albatro5538]

Yep you definitely lost a load of fans on this one.

[@ayoutubechannel7143]

Huuuuuuge stretch to call this guy a cheater as it stands. Honestly the top TM players are so elitist these days, accusing anyone who beats them of being a cheater just because they use different lines etc. It validates. One buggy input is not proof of cheating. I understand being suspicious but calling them a cheater atm is unfair and you know it. But anything for clicks ig

[@jpa3974]

Wirtual's unethical behavior on KZbin makes his position as an anti-cheating warrior quite dubious...

[@Intuition-Orth]

This kind of instantaneous change in inputs reminds me of my own "Snapback" issue. Where you let of the Analog Stick and when it Snaps back into it's Neutral position, it will overextend for a few frames, showcasing exactly this behavior. ( I still suffer from it to this day if i set my Deadzone too low ) Honestly, i'm getting more & more disappointed in the TM Community. Not only did Jules follow all the rules, including the Competetiv patch. Yet he got his record revoked based on suspicion alone. I'm aware that after the whole cheating incident, people now look more closely. However it should still be "innocent until proven guility". Not the other way around. It really hurts to see knowing the TM Community used to be a much more friendlier place for newcomers/old-school competitors. Granted, I can't really judge them based on your videos alone. However, that's how I feel.

[@thaostrich]

Not defending him, but I'll play devil's advocate. I like playing games with an Xbox 360 controller on my PC. Since mine is old, the stick potentiometers are worn out and messed up. Occasionally it registers as dead-zoned, or even opposite direction for a split second while moving in games, so there's a slim possibility. My issue certainly makes playing TM with this controller a pain. In RPG games, my characters occasionally stop moving, or move the opposite way for a frame or two.

[@jorisbuis4688]

If you see the control inputs, you see that there are some more anomaly’s so it could be his controller is bugged

[@TheNitrop]

I'd say this, while taking a different line, he also lost time compared to the standard line... I don't know, just feels interesting to cheat in a specific part of the map without gaining time, and then losing time later as well. Could he have been using macros to set up a button to a specific steering value? Is that allowed?

[@st_420]

In a righteous society, you are innocent until proven otherwise. If a long-time player with hundreds of replays uploads a new WR, driven on the competitive patch, you can't just frame him as a cheater based on speculations. This is the second time in a relatively short period, that the TM "professional" scene reacted like this and got completely overboard with their accusations. I start to believe, that the TM "professional" scene is still suffering trauma from the big scandals 4 years ago and now just sees cheaters behind every corner.

[@kregman6928]

didnt this happen with a newer player on the snow car campaign nadeo did? they called him a cheater because of his inputs and his extremely new account but the guy said its just how he drives with his analog stick and ended up uploading youtube videos and was forced to hand cam because of it. its crazy what the community has come to

[@dylanpereira3168]

They reacted like this because in TM history 9.9/10 of the people challenging top 10 records for any campaign map are known. So where was this guy on any campaign leaderboard? Well if you actually look, very fkn low. So how is is that people are constantly challenging these records for years and then someone who was below 1k rank on a map all of a sudden gets wr time with nothing in between. No improvements to top 100, not even some runs in top 10 then for record. That means this guy wouldve reset every run that wasnt wr, yet with how many runs this shouldve taken him he wouldve 100% gotten a pb that is better than top 1k. Anyone that plays trackmania or has for even an hour would understand this. and this quite frankly just doesnt make any fucking sense, no one person that plays trackmania in their life would ever do that

[@Tankilein]

You are absolutely correct. What the scene is doing here is a typical burden of proof fallacy. If YOU make a claim YOU have to provide the proof. Not the other way around.

[@dylanpereira3168]

@@TankileinThey did. The community provided all the proof they could for evidence they have that the run is cheated. Now proof isnt always right, what proof is is justification behind reasoning. The community used a lot of proof to justify their reasoning of him cheating, now he is able to rebuttal the evidence brought up if it is incorrect but he didnt. Everyone is relating this to court so here so let me do the same. For a case to even begin someone needs to prosecute someone, now after that the prosecutor (TM community) brings up evidence to court to try to explain to the judge why the defendant is cheating. Now in court, if the defendant doesnt defend themselves he loses. Thats it. Jury only has prosecution evidence, regardless of its right or not, they have no other information to go off of, and they need a verdict. Based off the information they have, they would say defendant is guilty. So many people making court analogies that have never taken a law class.

[@st_420]

​@@dylanpereira3168The "proof' how you call it, is ONE strange steering input that doesn't gain any advantage, an unconventional line and that a player doesn't submit his life to a game so he has big breaks between uploaded replays and doesn't want to communicate with people from the community (which is his good right). You and all the other people who are defending Wirtual here should never become a lawyer if your proofs are always this thin, every judge would laugh you out of the courtroom.

[@bloodspatteredguitar]

I think the important thing is to keep an open mind. This has not been proven to be a cheated run, it merely has unanswered questions. As such, the potentially reversible disqualification on the balance of probabilities seems right. If stronger sanctions were enacted, like banning him from uploading future runs at all I would want evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Personally, on a human level, I think it feels legit. But the question marks are reasonable too, and leaving the run as effectively "pending detailed authentication" is the right call by the community I think.

[@tomfis_3221]

For people who is wondering...The replay was removed from TMX leaderboard

[@renovatioimperii9205]

Fell off

[@Taobyby]

Ever thought about analog keyboards where you can steer like a joystick....sounds familiar? :)

[@Drezaem55]

Wirtual has and uses an analog keyboard and he's even been accused of cheating because of it. That combined with Wirtual being a guy that doesn't take cheating accusations lightly makes me assume Wirtual will have thought of it.

[@Taobyby]

​@@Drezaem55Buddy, why do you think I wrote "sounds familiar?" with a smilie at the end? I know that. But thanks for explaining my joke.... ;)

[@vogelfurtz]

No cheater was exposed here. Just allegations and your feeling that something isnt right. I liked it more when you had solid evidence. Youre right its sus, but no indication to outriught cheating. He could still use a key with a specific steering angle to get a nice wallbang (which is more grey area than actual cheats).

[@TurkDinski]

Specifically talking about the weird inputs, I had my steer left and steer right binded to my bumpers for a time. I would switch off of joystick for slalom turns. I think if you were using both at the same time you could get that input

[@TurkDinski]

The input would be left bumper (steer left) into the turn, with your finger hovering the joystick, and then once the wall bang happens you stop holding left bumper and start with small joystick wiggle simultaneously. I’m almost certain I could get my controller to do that input. Edit: input, not shortcut

[@christopherjohnson3464]

Yeah that’s what I thought- it’s a mix between pad and kb that causes it

[@mp7311]

@@christopherjohnson3464 You physically cannot press one key to the next on keyboard in .01 seconds. You don't realize how immensely fast that is. The only thing that can input that fast is a computer.

[@christopherjohnson3464]

@@mp7311 If you were steering on the joystick already and then pressed a button on kb, the inputs from pad would be cancelled out

[@MIAssasin]

​​@@mp7311A month late to the discussion but yeah you can. Tekken, the fighting game, has a move that only comes out when you do a sequence with a frame perfect three button press at the end (down, forward, right punch.) That's three buttons pressed together within 0.016 seconds. The optimal follow-up that Kazuya pros consistently do for one move is to do a perfect electric. Doing a perfect electric is to do the full sequence (forward, down, down-forward+right punch) with one frame intervals (0.016) between each button press. So people can not only do two different button presses in 0.01 seconds, but differentiate between 0.01 seconds (pressed "together") and 0.02 seconss (pressed one frame after another).

[@MasterOfDemons12]

While I think the run is most likely cheated, I find it... questionable to put the burden of proof on the player, when the player has followed stated protocol(comp patch, uploading run etc) Following stated protocol and rules should be enforced strictly both ways, to ensure as much integrity as possible, and push us to find and create better tools to find cheaters. This means that we'd sometimes have to allow cheated runs(hopefully temporarily), when there's no definitive proof of cheating. Alternatively, we can end up making it a completely acceptable course of action to just accuse someone of cheating, and make reputation destruction a viable course of action.

[@mnm1273]

If you submit a run with something that's not normally possible for a human, it's reasonable to ask for the proof. No one can prove a negative, so if they're making the claim that it's possible, it's up for them to prove it.

[@solitudesf8111]

@@mnm1273 game is shit

[@medea27]

The burden of proof _must_ sit with the player for community-run online games for one simple reason - _COST._ In time, effort, money, & community trust. Keep in mind we're talking about completely anonymous, random people able to submit a digital file to a website claiming they have a world record... these aren't controlled environments like LAN or developer-run tournaments where you can enforce protocols to help you detect cheating. And leaderboard moderators are voluntary, unpaid roles... it's unfair to expect a handful of people to give up their spare time chasing down proof of cheating on 100's (if not 1,000's) of submitted runs when the player should be able to easily "alibi" themselves. After all, we're not talking about a player being asked to do much more than _interact_ with moderators here... to answer a few questions about the file they submitted. If you're not prepared to back your own play by just talking to the mods, why should the mods disadvantage every other player on the leaderboard who _is_ open about their gameplay? People forget that even in professional competition, there _IS_ a burden of proof on competitors... the difference is the organisers/referees _already have access_ to that proof as players have given up their anonymity & agreed to measures like game logs, tracking software, anti-cheat programs, video footage, etc. But it's simply unreasonable to expect community-run leaderboards to take the same approach. Competitive integrity lies with the community - not the mods who are working with the limited time & tools available to try to maintain it.

[@MasterOfDemons12]

@@medea27 I'm all for invasive anti-cheat, especially when leaderboards are involved, but I still disagree as to where the burden of proof should be. The burden of effort put into anti-cheat and enforcing should be at ubisoft and Nadeo though, not the community. However, I still disagree that the burden of proof must sit with the player, as that burden is transferred once they've followed correct protocol and rules to upload to a leaderboard. Before upload, yes. Once it's on the leaderboard, no.

[@Delimon007]

If you did something it should be simple enough to replicate it or show that you are capable of doing it. As someone who races at a high level I've done this plenty of times to dispel issues.

[@MrTurbo_]

"I really hope perhaps your wife is pregnant" -Wirtual

[@Kyrelel]

Removing the punctuation to change the context is a bit naughty ;p

[@SoooeinFeuerballJunge]

Bet the run was blindfolded

[@ItsPassing]

This video is gross. All acusations with no actual proof. Shame Wirtual

[@michaelcloss565]

I'd like to see proof that it is cheated rather than "prove you are innocent", what a fun justice system that would be... I mean the only thing we have is 1 instance of "questionable" input which while possible he cheated isn't definitive proof.

[@HXSKlmfao]

oh my god bro it’s trackmania not the Supreme Court, grow tf up

[@Mageofpie]

Not looking too hot for the future of the leaderboards if you can't really separate the real runs from the fake ones. If he didn't make the small erratic movement issue would this still be detected as fake? It's in the same boat as that doom speedrun where the guy cheated for a prize but they found that he swapped his inputs completely in 2 back to back frames. What kinda stuff can be implemented to keep things valid?

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

It can't

[@sunofabeach9424]

yeah at this point records should be uploaded with hand cam. like in speed typing or guitar hero

[@TheNordicDK]

im not defending anyone, but it is possible to play a game in 10 years, without uploading to a community.. Like i have played CS since 1.6, and never wanted to be competitive...

[@donbunson5031]

I am not convinced that any cheating has taken place. If your tool to spot cheats missed this and you cannot give any explanation of how he cheated then it doesn't seem fair.

[@nakit_muusilla]

racehans is truly the goat of trackmania

[@edwardmorvan5809]

So no proof? People are innocent until proven otherwise, you know. I usually like your content, but this one was a miss. Focus instead on positive things, like new records or shortcuts and stop trying to be the Trackmania police/Karl Jobs. Spread love, not hate. Seriously, having a life and stopping uploading speedruns everyday is a tell for you?

[@user-dh8oi2mk4f]

did you not see the part where it instantly switched from steering left to steering half right?

[@Alex-vm9ug]

this comes across as "hes not part of our inner circle so i will cry to the mods that he cheated till the record is removed, my evidence is a completely inconsequential input that can be chalked up to stick drift, but im wirtual so waaaah take it off waaaah"... grow the f up there is ZERO evidence of this being cheated and your only "evidence" is a completely irrelevant input and you not "liking his lines"

[@zachf6466]

You said it so well. How are new players supposed to get into the game when you get doubted if you don't have a 10+ year history of playing a game? Like maybe he hasn't replied because he's an adult with a job and can't play trackmania all day? If I got a WR in this game by luck I would be put on trial lmao, no thanks.

[@mikumikuareka]

@@zachf6466 also, since he's from Ukraine, he might not be able to understand English at all

[@baertorv]

@@zachf6466 Not to mention that they literally did play from day one (one of the mentioned replays are from the first day). Just because they didn't engage in the community, their records are immediately getting combed for the slightest microsecond of anomaly data to try to defame them. It's so cringe.

[@mikesch9056]

Until when do you need to proof youre not guilty. Thats theend of this game

[@mikumikuareka]

Sorry, I don't really buy it. One weird input and a couple of unorthodox race lines are not something I would consider enough evidence to accuse someone of cheating. When you covered the riolu situation, it was flawless, but this one isn't.

[@threePwny]

We've seen incredibly small hardware malfunctions cause havoc in speedruns before, like the infamous Super Mario 64 bit flip upwarp. The controller input could be just as reasonably understood as exactly that, rather than cheating. Tiny hardware malfunctions happen, and they're virtually always like this, where it makes no discernable difference and you have to go frame by frame to even see that anything's out of the ordinary. And the "oh, he took a different line than the rest of the top runs" is just... flimsy at best. There's a lot of first-year psych major bullshit coming from Wirtual here. He provides reasonable explanations for the variant approach and then ignores them in favor of "obviously cheated". Finally, burden of proof should not be on the player (beyond the run being played with comp patch and validating, which it did) when the rationale behind the suspicion is so incredibly weak. In the case of Riolu, as a classic TM example, there was MOUNTAINS of evidence against him that comprehensively ruled out all other explanations as less likely than cheating. That's not the case here. There's three hundredths of a second of odd controller input (which could be better explained by hardware malfunction) in an otherwise legitimate run. And then there's a variant approach on the turn to the dirt transition, which similarly can be explained by more likely reasons than cheating. This situation is one where the burden of proof should absolutely be on the moderators, not the player.

[@afjelidfjssaf]

the mod team determined it to be false, which means they are sure that it is a cheated record

[@EpicDonutDudeMemes]

Smoking that Jules pack

[@dezeroc1040]

Correct title: I'm trying to start another witch hunt.* Run the inputs, see if removing the "weird" / "fishy" input makes the run worse. Besides that, it's "innocent until proven guilty", not "guilty because mr. streamer says so, unless you prove your innocence". This doesn't seem like a genuine attempt at preserving the games integrity in any way. It's just a streamer on a power trip...

[@aaronburr956]

Buddy, its not like they believe that one input got them the world record, its that they know that input isnt physically possible for a human to do. Its possible that it was just a joystick glitch, but is also just as possible that the jules had a program drive him to the wallbang the exact same way everytime and then gave him control. Its why small, one frame inconsistintent inputs are important.

[@pakapakapakapaka]

An unknown player, not biased with all these pro-lines, uploaded a WR, thus he definitely cheated. No proofs nor any evidences. Witch-hunt in its finest.

[@wilfreddv]

>knows about the skip >knows about the wallbang >doesn't know the grass line hmmm 🤔 yeah