Justice League: What Went Wrong? (vs. Thanos & Infinity War) - Wisecrack Edition

What went wrong with Justice League? Well, besides everything, there is one main problem: dramatic action. Join us as we explore the art of screenwriting.
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Written by: Thomas Ambrosini
Directed by: Michael Luxemburg
Hosted by: Jared Bauer
Edited by: Mark Potts
Produced by: Emily Dunbar
Opening Animation by: Michael Sinclair (diedfamo.us)
© 2018 Wisecrack, Inc.
#justiceleague #dccomics #zachsnyder

[@silenthero2795]

Themes Infinity War: The hardest choices require the strongest wills. **Thanos won because he chose to sacrifice everything** Justice League: You can't win alone **Superman soloes the main boss and entire army**

[@ashroskell]

Interesting observation. He reminds me of the villain in Serenity, in that sense, who tells people that there’s no place for himself in the future world that he’s helping to build. He acknowledges that he is a monster, and will ultimately sacrifice his own place in paradise, just to get it built. Thanos winds up in isolation, and doesn’t even provide his world with defences to protect against anyone who might come looking for him to get revenge. Zack Snyder seems to be trying to become the new Leni Riefenstahl for a possible Fascist dictatorship of the near future? The more I learn about him, the more disturbed I become. And the über right wing spin he seems to want to put on everything he touches, really worries me. Compare the Rawshack of the graphic novel, Watchmen, to the one of the movie, for instance? Snyder transforms him from a twisted incel, with mommy issues and a serial killer’s psychopathy, to an unlucky hero and misunderstood, lonely avenger, in the vain of the hard boiled detective that the novel shows us he deluded himself into thinking he was, who dies for his principles. And some of the projects that Snyder has in the pipeline sound chilling to me!

[@douvaman]

i left the theater watching JL saying: ok the next one could be good i left the theaters after infinity war: i wasn’t emotionally prepared for that!

[@Xkittyloverr1997]

I left Infinity War in complete shock and silence. There wasn't a thought going through me head until maybe 5 minutes after walking out of the theater where I just went "oh my god"

[@abigailolaybal9209]

walked out in silence and had to watch it two more times that month for my mind to fully process what infinity war had done

[@alexanderjonl2188]

I left theater knowing that eventually everybody will return (most at least). Endgame make a "better" job in that way.

[@daverobson3084]

I must be jaded. I walked out of Infinity War thinking " They killed off too many characters, especially NEW ones, they are all coming back in the next movie. They overplayed their hand."

[@goober9156]

@@daverobson3084 buuuut they left the OG6 alive, probably to give them more reasons to reunite and do one last mission together

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

you saw justice league five times, dude do you need a hug?

[@Lonewolf-hu2vn]

@Jack Bat you must have nerves of steel to handle that much cringe

[@goofygoober779]

@@Lonewolf-hu2vn jokes tenouttaten would Adam Sandler again

[@thesaltmerchant4564]

I could barely do it once and I am trying to like dcs films

[@heavystalin2419]

I bet he doesn't feel good...

[@jonhyde9422]

He's gonna need more than a hug

[@753rohit]

Why do people say that JL was forgettable? I still get flashbacks of this movie and it makes me angry how bad it was.

[@daneg]

honestly, BvS was so much worse that JL is just...forgettable for me.

[@aztn19]

It was forgettably “okay”. Not really good enough to go back to enjoy its meager highlights, but not overly bad enough to garner legit vitriol out of me. It’s not even so bad it’s kind of enjoyable. I knew the movie would suck, and wasn’t disappointed nor was I entertained with what we ended up getting

[@dericjames2018]

@@daneg nope wrong

[@thomasbyfield5366]

yes omg

[@sakitrain7766]

Looooooool! Bravo!👏👏👏

[@agerardi125]

The mistakes DC made compared to the success of Marvel can be summed up in six words: Marvel took it's time, DC rushed.

[@squarepixelscanada2567]

And DC started wrong.

[@agerardi125]

@@squarepixelscanada2567 Yeah I don't think Man of Steel was the foundation to build a movie empire off of. Some people seemed to like it, and it wasn't all bad, but it wasn't a great start to the expanded universe.

[@agerardi125]

@DejaVoodooDoll Lol, exactly.

[@squarepixelscanada2567]

@@agerardi125 precisely. MoS was good as an independent installation but if was meant to start a Universe, it needed to include the DCEU elements in the movie and also it was trying to milk off the Dark and Gritty tone charisma from Nolan's trilogy. Also, all their movies doesn't seem to connect with DCEU except Wonder Woman. I believe DC is better off with individual movies instead of DCEU stuff.

[@agerardi125]

@@squarepixelscanada2567 Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about that before. The best DC movies seem to be the individual movies, instead of the ones where their cramming together all these important characters we've never met before. That's a good point.

[@OmarDelReal45]

Deus Ex Martha has to become a new term in cinema

[@jpmthemonk]

The more fitting turn of phrase is Martha ex machina but yep, agreed.

[@OmarDelReal45]

And by this want I want it to mean is: Deus Ex Martha. When a ridiculous coincidence acts to save a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

[@JJJameson.]

I don't know why,but I actually like that twist

[@XanderKarr]

Joseph M no it’s not... that would be Martha is the machine which makes no sense. God is martha means Martha solves the central conflict

[@raymondmarquez1525]

@@jpmthemonk jump the shark. Nuke the fridge. Save the Martha

[@hampus6647]

DC literally had a cheat sheet on how to make a good franchise. It bothers me a lot.

[@prue5588]

Right, a few single movies and they would've been in the clear

[@Late0NightPC]

But that means they couldn't make all the money now. Why make it later if you can just make it now. What do you mean Marvel only made money because fans trust them to be good?

[@lgkjapo]

Yeah. It saddens me a lot that this movie came to be that huge failure... WB should have let Snyder conclude his vision. Can't say if it'd be good, but at least would be coherent

[@kasF]

All they had to do was copy an episode of Bruce Timm series 😂

[@navy0287]

​@@kasF _"All they had to do was copy an episode of Bruce Timm series"_ Agreed. At a bare minimum, they should've at least done that.

[@3DSage]

I saw Justice League on an airplane and halfway way through I turned to the stranger next to me and I said "this movie is sooooo bad." She just nodded her head and laughed.

[@primeevantv6487]

Lmao

[@zilcher1375]

How do you "noddle" your head? The movie must have been even worse at higher altitudes.

[@Iggystar71]

I could barely finish the CinemaSins on Justice League after falling asleep watching it earlier this year.

[@geoffreysorkin5774]

I saw Batman v. Superman on a plane, and halfway through I got up went out the exit.

[@mackenapigo8207]

Did the pick up line work ?

[@kyleisku]

I'll do you one better: WHY went wrong?

[@antona.1327]

That line was not funny in the movie, nor is it funny as a stupid Internet meme.

[@DarckT7]

@@antona.1327you liar it was the second funniest line in the movie. First being " it'll kill you" "only if I die" "yes...that's what 'kill you' means"

[@antona.1327]

@@DarckT7, I'm not a liar, because that line was not funny to me. I was not laughing. Therefore, not funny.

[@bluesbest1]

@@DarckT7 The first two lines in that sequence were great, but there's a reason why you're not supposed to explain jokes, and the dwarf failed that.

[@drksideofthewal]

@@antona.1327 Humor is subjective. You not laughing doesn't disprove the line being funny.

[@atitana]

What went wrong is the pacing. They rushed everything to cash in on the cinematic universe trend instead of taking their time to flesh out the characters.

[@riteousrighthand6144]

You mean like how Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Scarlet Witch, and Black Panther were handled?

[@jaimeup5976]

@@riteousrighthand6144 I could have sworn Black Panther had his own movie to flush out his character. Black Widow and Hawkeye were supporting characters is multiple films so we still got to know them a bit. Your argument is pretty void here dude.

[@zaephou2843]

+Riteous Right Hand I guess Avengers 1 & 2 and Black Panther 2018 never happened.

[@RCobra17isMyName]

That is why all dc movies are sub par clones of marvel movies. I know that they both copied each other in the comics, but this is different. Marvel was able to start small and relatively insignificant. Then build on what they created to craft something amazing. Dc is trying to achieve the same success without following Marvel’s footsteps. This is the inherent flaw to all dc movies and all movies that attempt to build a universe.

[@JustKrin]

@@riteousrighthand6144 considering how both Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch were kind of villains that later turned into heroes while Black Widow and Black Panther had prominent roles in previous movies (with BP having his own movie) before the big team up, Avengers and Infinity War respectively, as opposed to Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg and many others who were barely teased before we were supposed to care about them in JL, your comparison barely holds up

[@jonhyde9422]

Justice league: *"you can't save the world alone"* Me: *"but isn't that exactly what Superman did in man of steel?"*

[@MrConstantine02]

Hell, that's exactly what Superman does *in Justice League*

[@jonhyde9422]

@@MrConstantine02 lol

[@alexanderjonl2188]

Fair enough.

[@MaidenlessScrub]

You can’t save the world alone Superman: Hold my beer

[@amberslahlize7961]

@@MrConstantine02 No....

[@Dafmeister1978]

The fact that DC was trying to introduce three entirely new heroes, their villain of the film and the McGuffin that causes the conflict, all in Justice League, really can't be emphasised enough as a reasone for why it failed. It's like if Marvel waited until Avengers to introduce Thor, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Loki and the Tesseract, when instead they gave themselves the space to introduce all the heroes (arguably with the exception of Hawkeye, but he still gets the first scene in Avengers as his establishing moment, and what there was of him in Thor actually shows us a lot about him), the villain and the McGuffin before the film even began. The only characters with remotely significant screentime in Avengers who we hadn't already met were Maria Hill and The Other, and they're very much secondary players. All Marvel had to do when it came to make their team-up movie was toss the ingredients they'd already assembled into the pot and bring it to the boil.

[@seen921]

and it was the same, sad mcguffin without any thought or investment... look out, the sky is falling (yet again!!!)

[@amberslahlize7961]

Yeah, if WB had made more individual movies like Marvel had, JL would have turned out better - could have even added a greater cast. I so wish there were two Superman movies, 1 Batman movie followed by a BVS movie (but without Wonder Woman), 1 Wonder Woman movie, 1 The Flash movie, 1 Cyborg movie, and then introduce Aqua man in JL, it would have turned out way better... Also..StepenWolf needed a better way to be evil, and the motherboxes are BS. Also, also, also, Superman never should have been written off as dead. Also, also, also, BVS sucked! And I do wish the DarkKnight was part of this DC universe...I hate pirate Batman.

[@ajaxtanner874]

ill be honest, avengers was the first MCU film i ever watched (i was young lad) and they managed to set up every character perfectly throughout the film so they did that better too. showing characters and making them interesting. even fucking maria hill

[@magnusprime962]

Ajax Tanner That’s because Joss Whedon anticipated that people who hadn’t seen the other movies would be watching and specifically wrote their introductions in the film to cover the basics of the characters. He says as much in his commentary on the film. It also helps that the plot of Avengers is fairly simple, leaving them time to adequately explore it while still giving the characters their own arcs.

[@3Rayfire]

@@ajaxtanner874 You know that was also a well executed balance truth be told. Because while you got the basics of the characters if you had seen the previous movies you got a little extra bonus, "The last time I was in New York I kind of...broke...Harlem." Captain America's man out of time position is great for exposition and as audience surrogate. Tony and Thor's personalities are so big that they don't need a lot of introduction, and Nat gets a lot of meat so you can see who she is.

[@meursault7030]

Important philosophical question nobody seems to be asking: Is it still a trident if it has 5 damn prongs?

[@rafaelalodio5116]

Holly shit, never realized that.

[@antona.1327]

Because that's how his trident was designed in the comics.

[@unclejoeoakland]

You're right. It isn't. Its a Five-o dent-o. They're Italian.

[@meursault7030]

That wasn't the question, @@antona.1327

[@jeremybrown9611]

LMFAO

[@gregai8456]

I find it funny the power rangers movie has more plot and genuine characters than dc cu

[@seen921]

and it's very bright.... man DC movies are lit like German arthouse

[@hamman_samuel]

"Well I... I guess that was a movie" The perfect summary for Justice League

[@user-xy3ee8bw6j]

Morbius*

[@Robosapion]

Another huge problem was literally every marvel movies was exposition to the avengers which was exposition to infinity war. We had literal years to learn about every character and connect with them and see them interact with each other and thus become attached to them and actually care. We even see Thanos multiple times through out. We are even getting captain marvel before infinity war if I remember correctly. Justice League had man of steel BVS, AND wonder woman. all but 1 of these movies was tied to the building of the justice league. To which we were introduced to each character via Diana being shown them through a screen so the audience would be re-drawn in and get that hype high from seeing them all and knowing it's happening. There are plenty of people who like super hero movies but have no idea who they are so there is no explanation causing no hype for them and just having it fall flat. Justice League had no world building and I feel it was a big issue for it (to those that read this do not try to argue with me or make some weird debate this is just my opinion)

[@lyter420]

Agreed with everthing except captain marvel. They are rushing her because she comes out a month before infinity 2.

[@aaronlevine6498]

Slow and steady wins the race. If they make Infinity war in the first or 2nd movie, it would have sucked and it would never make 2 billion dollars.An early infinity war movie also would have had no hype compared to this one. You're dumb

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Uhhh "throwing the superman Christ metaphor into the trash?" I'd say they had one last metaphor by having the bastard respawn in three days.

[@taptiotrevizo9415]

Ohh

[@georgecampbell3687]

Well, it was more like a few months, but the resurrection still stands.

[@eclipse5393]

Zack Snyder is a bad director.

[@CHRlS]

The MCU did a better job at creating a background for Thanos and the infinity stones in their movies and end of credit scenes but the DCCU didn't even try

[@envycooks3638]

Yeah but marvel bitches copies DC which is why MCU are brainless and ball less

[@aidinhendriks4820]

NOT VEVO what

[@KrishayAgarwal]

@@envycooks3638 🧂🧂

[@acrux1918]

@@envycooks3638 It's what you do with the copy that counts. The MCU used the Marvel characters(which some were inspired by DC) and perfected them. Making them their own characters. Also. DC has also copied from Marvel several times. ex) Aquaman, Red tool, etc. and they made them their own characters by giving them different qualities, personalities, etc. If your thought process is 'ew is copy bad', you must think very low of yourself since you are a human being, which is a copy of another human being. Why don't you get rid of everything you own too? They were all inspired by something, that must mean they are shit even though they are doing their job just fine. Also, please give me, give us an example on how the MCU copied DC. The DCEU is very obviously trying to do what Marvel's doing. You're a hypocrite if you are defending DC because 'MarVeL CopY Dc BaD'. Grow some brain cells before commenting next time.

[@prue5588]

@@envycooks3638 lol bro back then it copy world for writers, but actually they used to bounce ideas off each other some Marvel writers used to work with DC writers until everything when to shit

[@erickjoshuanebreja6154]

when Screen Junkies rated Infinity War with S for spoilers but not Justice League they are literally saying it indirectly

[@JustKrin]

Honestly what was the biggest spoiler JL had? Superman coming back to life? Everyone knew that would happen. Honestly JL has nothing spoiler worthy

[@anthonyanderson3448]

Avengers did it better because we got to see growth in each character. In Avengers we got to see how their personality clash for the same goal but different ways. Thus cobflict. That one movie was the perfect set up when we finally get to see the end result. In DC i just feel. Good guy vs bad guy.

[@winesgone]

MCU = Your grandmas’ lovely chocolate cake she bakes for you every month. You often wonder what makes it taste so good, your gran knows: it’s baked with love. DCEU = That cheep cake you buy at the gas station because you forgot pudding. It always tastes subpar because the massive TNC that produces it sacrifices flavour for cheaper alternative ingredients. Oh yeah, it’s made on a conveyer belt in Algeria and shipped across the world over many months. And when you eat it, you find hair in it.

[@anarzoljargal8485]

very intricate descriptions

[@ahwayzcool4630]

LMAO!

[@gqh007]

And it’s not even human hair

[@EvilEyeGypsy]

Good analogy.

[@winesgone]

Vidal Ruiz What second rate gas stations do you go to? 😂

[@Dude_Abides]

Deus ex MARTHA??!! You brilliant bastard, Jared...

[@i_am_ergo]

Jared doesn't write these.

[@ThatOneGuy7550]

doesn't matter, it's still brilliant. @@i_am_ergo

[@Wolfeur]

Should be Martha ex machina, really

[@wk3820]

The Martha scene was solid writing because it got to the most fundamental aspect of each character in a single scene. Martha Kent is why Superman is optimistic, and Martha Wayne (or her death) is why Batman is dark. Well done. It showed more understanding of the characters than any other scene in the movie.

[@Wolfeur]

@@wk3820 The idea of Martha was fine. But the execution was terrible and pretty laughable.

[@hangha7016]

MCU: movies to introduce characters first --> team up DCU: team up --> explain characters' backgrounds later

[@fzndn-xvii]

Bruh

[@mannequin767]

6:14 That whole scene explains why the aquaman movie should've happened before justice league

[@fieryskullface123]

I’d assume that the biggest difference between Justice League and Infinity War is the films that lead up to it. Marvel has been setting up its universe for a whole decade, and DC tried doing that over a span of like 3 years. It is because moviegoers are so familiar with marvel heroes that the relationships and dramatic action flows seamlessly throughout the movie. Justice League fails in that sense as well, as most people know DC heroes from other franchises apart from the big screen. Marvel did origin movies for a whole decade and then made a big crossover event. DC made two origin movies, with Superman and Wonder Woman, and then made two crossover events with a bunch of new characters the big screen hasn’t seen much of, so it fails. I believe the biggest problem DC has is them trying to copy marvel without setting up their groundwork.

[@TwoNNsB]

In fairness, there were only 4 years between Iron Man and The Avengers... BUT Marvel did have a better approach in giving the main 4 protagonists of Avengers their own solo movie(s) leading to the team up, rather than ramming Batman and Wonder Woman into what was supposed to be Man of Steel 2 originally

[@sizableyeet]

fieryskullface123 couldn’t have said it better myself. I mean with that kind of a plan, what the hell did they expect?

[@ericp1139]

Marvel just has better story and character development. More people cried over the death of Groot and Yondu (C-listers) than Superman’s death. That should tell you something.

[@antona.1327]

@@ericp1139, didn't cry at either of them. Yondu was an unlikable prick. Groot was going to come back anyway.

[@Whofan06]

Exactly, when Dr Strange all of a sudden shows up to talk to Iron Man you don't have sit there and wonder "who the fuck is this guy why can he do that and how do they know anything about each other" nor do you have to wait for an explanation, the characters meeting up is absolutely seamless and helps drive the action forward. They spent years giving us the answers to those questions, and removed a ton of exposition from Infinity War cause you just didn't need it unless you'd literally never even heard of the MCU. Justice League has to explain to us who the hell these versions of Cyborg and Aquaman even ARE before they can do anything else.

[@pdzombie1906]

The problem with Justice League is the motherboxes weren't named Martha!!!

[@jesusmora9379]

martha boxes

[@danfinch5692]

I really don't get why this scene gets so much dislike from people. What is so bad aboput this scene? It makes sense, if you actually know Batman (and not just from those disppointing Nolan Movies).

[@geoffreysorkin5774]

@@danfinch5692 The problem is that BvS didn't have the real Batman any more than the Nolan films. BvS had Crazy Steve, who suddenly grows a conscience because Superman says Martha. The Nolan films had Superman without superpowers calling himself Batman. Also, to the OP, WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME

[@danfinch5692]

@@geoffreysorkin5774 You know that Batman is crazy, right?

[@geoffreysorkin5774]

@@danfinch5692 Crazy Steve is crazy. Yes, Batman is a scared little boy at his core, but he's a scared little boy with principles who doesn't stop something he has rationally decided over the course of months (he started his thought process about killing Superman when Metropolis was destroyed) because he hears a name that's familiar. Crazy Steve (who he acted like throughout the movie) wouldn't stop because Superman said Martha because he's sadistic, and Batman wouldn't stop because he would have considered Superman having a family, and the name wouldn't stop him on its existence alone. The best theatrical Batman is Mask of the Phantasm.

[@goldenstatewarriors9418]

I've watched Infinity War at least 7 times, and it never loses its impact. I couldn't bear to watch Justice League more than once.

[@mataburt]

the MCU dedicated at least one movie for each mcguffin/character or team, JL shoved 3 (identical) mcguffins, a new villain and 3 new main cast members each with unique back stories into one movie.

[@alexman378]

And we never even see what these things can do individually, or the power they give to the user, like we did with the Infinity Stones (and even then, we only had an idea of what they could do).

[@StefwI0u]

And the stones are more neutral than the boxes,but they are more like Sauron's ring: he CAN'T have it back because he's gonna be powerful to beat, so in terms of pattern, Steppenwolf should have only recovered two of 3 boxes, and the JL should fight him for preventing to him to have the third

[@sparkydoodle696]

You saw it FIVE times?! You have my deepest sympathies.

[@squarepixelscanada2567]

Indeed

[@munjee2]

I mean I have seen jack and jill six times watching horrible movie over and over isn't as bad as it may same it honestly does feel like you come stronger

[@MrDimSumLee]

For science.

[@bitetheasp]

I've seen it four times. It got...better(?) each time because I was trying to justify my time watching it. Meanwhile, I've seen Infinity War at least six times, and it got better because I was able to notice things I had missed before.

[@desin24]

5 times? 5 TIMES? You must be into some kinky stuff if you do that to yourself

[@sptom]

5 times! 5 times! 5 times! 5 times! 5 times!

[@cjmurda14]

He's clearly a masochist

[@nhagan001]

Don’t kinkshame!

[@neguswitdaprunejuice7772]

Dennis Sirbu BDSM

[@sabster79]

I couldn’t make it through 1.

[@albertdoan6483]

Now we know why Dr strange wanted Tony to live at all cost

[@ECL28E]

Justice League was a response to all the criticisms of Batman V Superman. Lack of humor/levity, too aesthetically dark, downer-Superman...But all the fixes they applied are superficial. The DCEU's problems run even deeper than just making a few Joss Whedon quips. It's foundation is cracked beyond repair Also, quick mention. We never see the full scale of Steppenwolf's abilities. He prefers to use his army of putties, we don't feel how strong he is compared to the rest of the Justice League. Aquaman is capable of holding him off and Superman beats him, of course. In Infinity War, we learn in the 5 minute mark, just how dangerous Thanos is; by him taking down the Hulk in hand-to-hand combat without even breaking a sweat. The audience is now thinking, "Holy shit! Thanos just took down the Avengers' trump-card like he was sparring practice! He's not just fucking with them, he's legit dangerous"

[@JustKrin]

The DCEU was reactionary since MoS. "Oh Green Lantern and Superman Returns failed? That was because they were lighthearted, we'll make our new Superman dark like The Dark Knight, it will be a success" BvS: "People didn't like how Metropolis and its citizens died during the final battle? We'll just add a couple of lines saying that the places are empty, but let's double down on the broodines and darkness" SS and JL: "Oh so people don't like dark and deconstructed characters? Well, let's just add jokes and literal and metaphorically light up the movies"

[@TheSefirosu200x]

Also, it wasn't a reboot, so it couldn't have fixed the fact that Superman and Batman in the DCEU are horrific murderers.

[@highlanderc]

@@JustKrin marvel has the same destruction if not more.... critics have always been harder on dc.

[@JustKrin]

@@highlanderc the difference is the way they display the destruction, MoS was intentional on showing people get slaughtered, you know, to be more realistic. While Marvel tries to show you that people survive or are helped during the attacks. Still with the critics narrative? TDK, Wonder Woman and now Shazam isn't enough?

[@ECL28E]

@@JustKrin The Dark Knight was over a decade ago and is NOT part of the DCEU. Not part of the discussion. Wonder Woman was mediocre at best. Shazam was legitimately great, but it came out long after Justice League.

[@ReedRichardsPhD]

I think it would be better if you compare JL to Spider-Man: Into The Spider-Verse, simply because it has the same concept. Uniting a team without even having an "Origin Movie" if you may. The only difference is that ITTSV did it better than JL

[@greenman394]

WB rushing to compete with Marvel, not having a solid plan, not leaning on any of the comics or animated shows as a base for the movies, changing characters completely, Burning through important moments in the Batman V Superman, no world building, I may have repeated my self but any thing else I'm missing?

[@Pikashades]

*WB rushed, not DC.

[@JustKrin]

I think they had a plan, actually they had two plans, Snyder wanted an epic saga a la LoTR with a beginning, middle and end but you had to wait like two years for the next chapter while the movie you were watching would be constantly reminding you that there's more on the future instead of focusing on the present. While WB wanted a cinematic universe that could last for years to come as to rival marvel And you can see how opposite those ideas are

[@scottsiegal6125]

I think it boils down to two big things WB believing that comic book movies are just a fad and not having someone who knows, loves, and respects the original comics spearheading everything

[@jeremybrown9611]

WB fucked up

[@ftlbattosai9470]

Wtf are you talking about they're useing the New Gods story and what characters did they change? They're how they should be and what important moment did they burn over?.

[@Svartasvanen18]

Endgame: "So I heard you like catharsis?"

[@squarepixelscanada2567]

Justice League was a Mess.

[@mottahead6464]

Emotional connections between Justice League's main characters are as fake as Superman's baby lips.

[@dylanyetman7952]

Justice League wasn't feeling too good anyways...

[@Pikashades]

Because it was sabotaged.

[@Pikashades]

@xrelik It would have been earned on it's own if it had come out as it was planned out in the first place. If Snyder had stood in making the film to the end and had not been replaced by Joss Whedon. The Lord of the Rings trilogy didn't need solo movies for Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli before Fellowship of the Ring and Harry Potter didn't need an Order of the Phoenix prequel or Rise of Voldemort movie before The Philosopher Stone came out. It is possible to tell a story as it goes on and DCEU could have done it as it was reported between Man of Steel and BvS that Zack Snyder had the entire DCEU planned out as story with a beginning, middle and an end as a saga before Warner Bros decided to turn it into an MCU ripoff that no one except Marvel loving DC fans asked for. Also: 1. Amateur early in his career is not the same thing as dumb ass 2. Read Superman: Birthright and Superman: Secret Origin for where that Lex Luthor was invented in the first place. 3. It was. Batman's arc was that he was burnt out and had lost the sight of himself. It was Superman who saved Batman from himself by reminding him why he is Batman in the first place and returning his faith into humanity. 4. Zod was more in control of that fight and was the one who kept the fight in Metropolis. Superman DID try to take their fight into space and Zod took it right back into Metropolis. Not to mention there were TWO dubstep devices, on one Metropolis and another above Indian Ocean. Superman went for the on Indian Ocean because he could get to it faster than the US military. What plot hole are you talking about here? Yes, DC Comics should be given their own independent studio free from Warner Bros, because that is how Justice League got turned into Josstice League in the first place. WB is who replaced Snyder with Whedon and Junkie XL's score with Danny Elfman's nostalgic masturbation. Especially when most hateful reviewers, and haters in genereal, keep slamming DC and ONLY DC without ever bringing up Warner Bros, making their complaints and little creative criticisms sent to the wrong address and essentially to deaf ears.

[@getyoursickassawayfromme3176]

@Darth Ruin dude it's like your trying to be lame

[@seen921]

"Well, I guess that was -- a movie" is what my son and I said when we came out of JL. I was jumping out of my seat during Avengers.

[@TheCanihavaname]

10:44 "...Strange bartering the time stone away to save Tony's life" (X) DOUBT

[@dankerbell]

well i mean yeah it led to tonys death but he had to live until that point

[@raexrockstar]

TheTriVortex they know that. They are trying to point out that strange didn’t give the stone away to save Tony’s life. He never would have given the stone away to save any one single persons life. He only gave it away because he saw that it was the only path that led to their victory in the end. So yeah when people save strange was saving Tony’s life is really funny cause he totally didn’t try to save him. He just knew it was the only winning outcome.

[@TheCanihavaname]

@@raexrockstarvideo came out before Endgame but yeah

[@Karnagie]

I hate how their solution to their problem with superman is to simply scrap Caville. Caville easily could’ve been a great superman, but the writers & director(s) never gave him anything to do other than “stand there and look like superman” without ever bothering to develop the character around it. As for the mustache fiasco, maybe if the production team did a better job in their first take and didn’t request reshoots months later, they wouldn’t have had that problem in the first place. I’m not saying Caville is a great actor, but can’t expect an actor to put on a good performance if they never give him a character to play in the first place. He never would’ve topped the performance that Reeve portrayed in the older ones, but he still could’ve done an arguably good job if he just had SOMETHING to do or represent

[@valhallacomes]

On the mustache thing, it's ridiculous that someone easily managed to do a better take. Someone who did it by themself with not even the budget to compare to But yeah, Henry could've been a great dupes, just by the behind the scene video with Ben Affleck

[@ftlbattosai9470]

He didn't have a mustache and he's not gone he's just doing the Witcher series on Netflix untill DC/WB is ready to start the next movie.

[@jamesfeguson3445]

@@ftlbattosai9470 he did have a mustache watch mission impossibe fallout, and yes he's gone, he's didnt renew his contract.

[@cryofpaine]

@The Bandog He's the best Superman we've had, at least live action. But the fact is, for gold standard, you just need to look to the DC animated universe. The Justice League cartoon, and all its tie in shows, movies, and games, were the best adaptation of the comics we've ever had. In fact, they were the best adaptation period. I can't think of any other adaptation that gets it as right as the DCAU does. That should be required watching for anyone who is going to play the characters, write the characters, or direct these characters. While they shouldn't be a cookie cutter performance, they should all have the same core to build off of - the core that comes from 80+ years of characterization.

[@j.francisward1897]

Cavill shouldn't have been fired, I would be perfectly fine with a well made Flashpoint movie that would offer a soft reboot for the DCU, then you can replace characters if you need to. But yes, Infinity War works because the good guys are already established, so they can focus completely on Thanos and stopping him. JL had to introduce 3 good guys and a bad guy, and given the good guys are getting future movies, they decided to focus on their character set up rather than Villanova development. Hopefully DC can do better in the future and offer a unique version of a comic book universe.

[@saturnstar792]

urgh, i love the whole father son relationship that peter and tony had in IW, showed some growth from Homecoming

[@heatherdale5571]

Strange gives Thanos the stone because it leads to the one scenario that defeats him and saves the stone. That scenario is one that means Tony’s demise in the upcoming Endgame. Which means Strange is holding to his word to Tony that if it comes between Tony, Peter or the stone, he wouldn’t hesitate to let either die to maintain the safety of the stone. Tho he does make a valiant effort to avoid that situation from happening, so, he’s not completely void of, at least, respect for Tony. He doesn’t really do it to save Tony’s life. It only appears to be so if you’re not recalling the previous conversation.

[@dasik84]

He still has respect to Stark. And vice versa. It's well seen in scene when they crashed the donut ship on Titan.

[@heliopyre]

wrong. it was the opposite of that. his conviction to protect the stone at the cost of everyone else is what led to all those failed outcomes. the 1 timeline he saw in which they win was one where he chooses Tony over the stone.

[@dasik84]

@@heliopyre I've never said that THAT wasn't true. I said that Strange respects Stark.

[@heliopyre]

@@dasik84 I wasn't replying to you.

[@KK-nh3bh]

In 2021, everyone knows the main villain of DCEU is WB itself..

[@Goodbrew84]

deus ex martha is my new favourite term

[@comicculture5410]

Lol😂😂😂😂

[@felipegonzalez8549]

Superman, batman where my childhood heroes! *they're so interesting!* It takes talent to stuff it up....

[@zechrojas2202]

Warner Bros snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory.

[@bluesbest1]

@@zechrojas2202 And right on the heels of the Dark Knight Trilogy, too. I think I was as interested in each of those films as I was for each phase of the MCU. I can't count how many times I watched the Dark Knight back in the day, whereas most of the MCU movies I tend to only watch a couple of times.

[@mikeymegamega]

Wait, so did Jared like Justice League or not? I wish he'd been clearer.

[@saeedbaig4249]

Based on his opening lines ("The movie that made Batman V Superman look like an art house masterpiece. Full disclosure; it's not good... There's one central issue that makes it so forgettable, etc"), I think Jared decidedly does NOT like JL. If he mentioned (semi-)good parts of the film (like "most of the scenes do have dramatic action" and "they tie in Flash's anxiety to the fights"), it was only for the purpose of making a nuanced argument for how it falls short (e.g. "but it feels cheap and hasty" and "but Flash convineiently loses his stage fright instantly after saving the hostages").

[@houdazahrane5871]

@@saeedbaig4249 you do know op was being sarcastic, right?

[@fredrico2914]

You have a new subrscriber. I am thoroughly impressed with how you breakdown your reasoning behind the premise of this episode. I've watched several other movie critique videos and they are often full of subjective (not necessarily wrong) ideas or problems they have with the movies they're critiquing. Never before have I seen one of these videos go into such depth using philosophy and actual cinematography to explain their points the way you have done so in this video. I feel like I just attended cinematography 101 and I was thrilled to come back for the next class when this one ended.

[@thedarkwatch1699]

Opinion time: I honestly think that Justice League should not have been made so soon. Every character felt shoehorned in and most of the cast had nothing to build on. Everyone complains about origin stories for heroes, but JL proves why we need them. WB/DC is trying to cash in on the hero movie money by mimicking Marvel movies without giving the characters time to establish themselves because they missed that boat. The only truly established characters for JL were Superman and Wonder Woman, but the former spent most of the movie 6 feet under and the latter suffered from undermining her well written role from her solo movie to a far more generic character with less emotion behind her action. The cash grabbing is backfiring and they need to focus on one hero at a freaking time before you start doing mash ups.

[@ftlbattosai9470]

I completely agree but the movies where still great.

[@erzan]

*Superman, Batman and Justice League* animated was my favourite as a child. Then *X-Men, Spiderman & Avengers* stole my heart.

[@cforn]

Very well done. Great analysis. I really enjoyed this!

[@nolastname]

"the movie that makes Batman V Superman looking like a master piece" ,Ooooh slow down there…

[@billionai4871]

There are also other issues, like Superman is the rest of the Justice league combined, so there's no need for the rest of the crew. And conflict had no lasting consequences, (flash's stage fright, for example). Also, they didn't set up any conflict for movies to come: BvS at least have us a little of "who the hell is her", to introduce the need for wonder woman's movie, but I feel no need for a flash, cyborg or Aquaman movie, because backstory was info dumped and conflict was kinda solved

[@aohige]

The moment you brought up Infinity War I was like "oh come on, this is massacre on a dead horse".

[@jagardina]

Fantastic analysis. Thanks for making this Jarrod.

[@MeisterKleisterHeisstEr]

I love these kind of videos because I learn so much about what makes a good story.

[@unholydiver1095]

WB rushing everything. That is basically it. They've actually shown they can make good solo movies with Man Of Steel, Wonder Woman, and based on reviews, Aquaman. That is cause they are focusing on making good standalone movies instead of rushing and cramming everything to get a Justice League movie. To tell the truth, I just want great standalone movies. That is what The Dark Knight and Logan did perfectly. They weren't trying to set up a sequel or a whole universe. Companies just need to hire a great director and fuck off. Some of it also goes towards Disney too but to a lesser extent. Disney has done a good job at making popcorn entertaining movies. I still hope their own "The Dark Knight" or "Logan" happens with Avengers 4, and based on the trailer, it looks like it can and I am excited to see it. And I hope that WB just focuses on making good standalone movies and refrain from doing crossing-overs for a while.

[@vadalia3860]

I think Black Panther is closer than Avengers 4 will probably be to non-popcorn blockbuster (although obviously it was still very enjoyable) BP had a huge list of things it had to accomplish- establish T'challa's character past what little we saw in CW, introduce and flesh out all his supporting characters, and worldbuild the entirety of Wakada. Not only did it manage to do all that excellently, but it absolutely hit it out of the park with possibly *the* best Marvel villain and its' topical exploration of the themes of identity and legacy (which is what I think elevates it beyond merely popcorn entertainment) Pretty much the only flaw is some "meh" CGI that still looks better than Steppenwolf could ever dream of.

[@unholydiver1095]

@@vadalia3860 I actually have Winter Soldier as the best MCU movie imo. Black Panther is second though for me, My favorite MCU movie though is the first Iron Man.

[@vadalia3860]

@@unholydiver1095 Winter Soldier is definitely excellent as well. I think BP and WS are helped by the fact they could conceivably work as non-superhero movies and still be good (if fact, both would be in the same genre as political/geopolitical thrillers, instead of superhero movies, with just the littlest bit of tweaking) I think the first Iron Man, in addition to being a good movie, has a special place in a lot of people's heart because it was the catalyst for both the MCU and subsequent DCEU so I can definitely understand that being a fav. My favorite, outside of BP, would probably be Thor: Ragnarok. I know the tone shift kind of divided fans but I love that it brought something fresh to the table, especially since Thor was kind of getting lost in a sea of similar character types (with pre-Ragnarok Thor, Ironman, Captain America, Starlord, Dr Strange, and Ant-man all being mildly varying flavors of semi-angsty white manpain)

[@unholydiver1095]

@@vadalia3860 Yeah. "Superhero movies" shouldn't be considered a genre, or sub-genre of movies.

[@unconscious7219]

Dark Knight Trilogy is the best.

[@user-nw9vp4ht7h]

*Compares a movie that took ten years of cinematic universe to set up against one that took two* "Why can't DC just copy Marvel, right guys?" The REAL problems with DC was their lack of foresight and overall greed. Ben was too god damn old to establish as a long term Batman. Henry is a boring default looking person. So now your two main characters are bound to be replaced. Then the fact that they rushed into this franchise because of money, instead of realizing Marvel is about to hit a peak leaving a huge opening for DC in the next few years to start their major storyline. Each character should have a minimum of two movies before the audience sees them together unless they are disposable. Edit: Apparently people in this comment section take moustaches extremely seriously. You've been warned.

[@DisrespecfulSyrup]

Josh N don't disrespect Henry, he's great as Superman. He just had a terrible director

[@user-nw9vp4ht7h]

@@DisrespecfulSyrup Even Henry hated his superman. Nobody in their right mind thought DC would pay out the butt to cover a moustache. He could have easily shaved it. He didn't because he wanted out of being typecast. Also knew no matter how good the movie was, people would always do this stupid "Marvel is better" garbage.

[@ftlbattosai9470]

@@user-nw9vp4ht7h He didnt have a mustache!.

[@TKEGOODIES]

I agree but RDJ was 43 when he became Iron Man, he's 53 now ben was 43 when he become Batman. So that logic is wrong. He's just not a very good Batman. Maybe they didn't take the time to establish him even in BVS. Plus a forty year old Batman can work if they can show some character progression properly. Like why does he kill, did something happen that caused him to become so angry with Superman other than Metropolis got destroyed in an Alien battle (which seems like a Lex Luthor motive to me) What happened to Robin and the suit with the hahas on them? Did Joker kill Jason Todd is this why Batman is like this? What makes Ben different than Christian Bales Batman?. Why should we care that Supes and Bats are fighting? Things like that they failed to pre establish before JL. His age has nothing to do with it because its been done before.

[@TKEGOODIES]

@@user-nw9vp4ht7h again wrong about the moustache he had a movir he was already filming. He didn't shave it becauae it was for the role and waiting for it to grow back at the lenght even for a day pushes back production. One production day cost alot of money and the crew live off that pay. Same woth Chris Evans he had another movie post Avengers 1 they called him in for the Swarmma scene reason he covered his face while they all ate. They are contracted they have to follow whay rules they sign on for to get that pay check.

[@robertanderson6929]

Excellent analysis. Subscribed for more.

[@nickzardiashvili624]

Project + Contradiction really reminds me of a scene from The Tempest (the play which is quite self-aware and seems to be the metaphor for the process of writing overall). When Miranda and Ferdinand fall in love at the first fight, Prospero (i.e. Shakespeare supposedly, i.e. the writer overall) says "but this swift business I must uneasy make, lest too light winning make the prize light."

[@Colin-Sierra682]

If I may, I would also suggest another issue that the film has and that is gravity of the villain or his actions. JL attempts to present to us a villain who can end worlds, conquer vast armies, and potentially bring forth the apocalyptic vision we saw in BvS. The problem is that we don't see that happen. Comparing him to Thanos, we saw the devastation that Thanos and his forces give to the Avengers from the start by besting the Hulk and all Asgardians, arguably the strongest Avengers available, in the film before the opening title is shown. His weight and power is established from the very start. Stepenwolf is only said he's strong and yet can only go even with the JL without Superman even around. Add to that his 'army' which is little more than mass video game fodder and it adds up to a weak threat. Additionally we were supposed to expect more from our villains in really only two and a half movies. Thanos and his agents had been built up and hinted at over various films and we saw characters grow and rise to these challenges in preparation for the big final boss. In contrast we see what the films seem to present as the final boss, or at least one very high up there, from the very beginning and all we see beat him are a amazonian warrior and DC Jesus who can solve anything smack him around while a quirky speedster, a billionaire, Cyborg, and another warrior with a trident make short work of the army and any other issues. Now yes, I know that Darkseid is the real ultimate big bad of the DC Universe. But from what we've seen, there's no real challenge unless, like in the vision, Superman turns to his side. But that in itself is another problem. Remember how the comic nerd in you first saw the Omega symbol? First heard the mention of mother boxes? We gushed when we heard that knowing what was to come was a Superman vs Darkseid beat down. Then we saw how Superman was going to fight with him and the stakes completely changed. What happened to that? Where were the recruiting attempts from Stepenwolf? Where are the doubts that he's on the right side? Sure, we see him ready to kill Batman, but one talk with Louis and he's back to the overpowered good guy he was. How is that end point supposed to be switch sides again? In the end, yes Jarred, I agree with your video and this rant will likely be very jumbled and confusing, but ultimately another massive symptom from the flaws you addressed are that the story hasn't presented us with a threat we can take seriously nor any flaws that service to make that threat more memorable or legitimate.

[@ftlbattosai9470]

Steppenwolf is the leader of Darkside's elite army and those bugs are the husks of his fallen enemies he was seen talking to Lex in BvS through a hologram and at the end when Lex says they are coming he was talking about Steppenwolf and his army, his purpose/orders are to turn Earth into his home world Apocalypse (which we see in JL and BvS) for the arivle of his master Darkseid who will show up in JL 2 or 3 he is a monster and a conqueror of worlds but they only came to Earth because Superman was dead, he is the only one that could stop them, and the only reason Steppenwolf was stopped before was because the Amizonian's, humans, Atlanteans and a Green Lantern fought him back, and Batman's dream was a premonition of what could happen if Batman doesn't do something about it, Superman only turns to the darkside in it because Lois lane dies and he blames Batman for it, Superman would do anything for her she makes him feel human thats why he snaps back to reality when he sees her in JL.

[@iunderstanphotography2780]

@Red-Eyes Duelist well said. AS Thor: Dark World proved, we need enemies we can care about, a sense of actual "oh shit he might win-what are they gonna do?" type danger, and Superman wiping the floor with StppenWolf didn't give us that. I even had that thought in the theater...

[@Matopath9]

@@iunderstanphotography2780 I felt that Superman came across as way over powered in JL. I get pulled out of the movie at the end when Superman shows up because he essentially invalidates the efforts of the other heroes, not to mention WW is to under powered in the DCEU in my opinion. She should be able to stand against SM since she actually is a fighter and trained tactician (and *used* to be almost as strong and faster than him in comics past). When you have a team fighting, the team needs to win, and the JL conclusion felt like SM was just thrown in last minuet, which he may have been as this story was originally supposed to be told over two films.

[@iunderstanphotography2780]

@@Matopath9 "SM was just thrown in last minuet, which he may have been as this story was originally supposed to be told over two films." it was? What happened that changed that plan? I stay away from the movie news for fear spoilers before I see it As a Superman fan (but non-Dc comic reader)I never knew Wonder Woman was near Superman's equal until the past couple years. I thought she was more like Daredevil/captain America; an athlete at the peak of physical condition and incredibly skilled in weapons in fighting. It wasn't until the JL cartoons and Ww movie did I see otherwise. I've said before we need CLEAR Superman limits, so when he exceeds them, we can REALLY cheer for him, the same way I do for Goku in DragonBall Z. He faces enemies, dusts the floor with some, then encounters someone he can't defeat and gets beat down. His friends do all they can to help, and Goku finds a way to barely win. Every time Goku went up a level i was excited I need that with Superman in the DC movies. I don't ONLY want to see him tested, broken and bloodied when he fought DoomsDay

[@rashkavar]

So...from your plot synopsis, I'd say there's a more fundamental failing than even dramatic action: failure to understand the characters and their core motivations. When you're working with established characters like this, you need to understand where these characters are coming from. Batman's entire existence as a character is bound up in the grief and guilt he feels about his parents death, and his motivation is to put things right - make the world one where bad people don't have the opportunity to hurt others the way they hurt him. Everyone watching this movie knows this, right? Then why in all of these excerpts in a video largely focusing on scenes involving the character that were clearly meant to be pivotal, do I just see a big burly guy making decisions despite the advice of those around him? That's not Batman, that's a stereotype of the sociopathic CEO. I'm also tempted to argue that the rough stubble look is very counter to the character. He's a pretty high functioning individual, having successfully maintained leadership of a large corporation as well as becoming a successful anti-crime ninja. Unless this movie takes place like 3 days after he decided "I'm going to grow a beard," he'd be better groomed than that. (Compare to Tony Stark - the only times he's looked disheveled in the movies that I've seen have been during apocalyptic battles and their immediate aftermath, and that bit in Iron Man 3 where he's driven out of his home and is failing at being a homeless person.)

[@krishkansara5673]

Failing at being a homeless person XD

[@zevongiddings4236]

Awesome Vid. Just subscribed!!

[@kyleklemm1514]

You dudes are awesome! Thanks, MatPat.

[@zichrirasmus4179]

Hey wisecrack, Zichri here. Please do a what went wrong on the Dark Phoenix.

[@lazerbeam134]

"I guess that was a movie" was exactly my reaction to Justice League! Infinity War, on the other hand, was emotionally devastating from start to finish- a roller coaster ride of emotional highs and lows watching characters who have been developed over the course of 20 or so films in the last ten years. Marvel Studios knocked it out of the park and Warner Brothers/DC fucked up a whole universe of characters with high potential in their shitty poorly planned cash grab movies!

[@YTwoKay]

i'd love to see more writing analysis videos. There's no way I'll afford film school at this rate so Wisecrack and Skillshare are all I have to look forward to.

[@DoomRulz]

This is a great video. I always love your work.

[@bigronnie9629]

Last time I came this early my wife was deeply disappointed.

[@Nishith8]

It's ohk bro, next time, practice before performing.

[@StreetsOfVancouverChannel]

so was the postman

[@JustCozItsMe]

Got a legit lol from me.

[@brazilianhumanbean559]

I have to write this one down

[@nhagan001]

But at least you were deeply inside....

[@tyronebrown5001]

Yo I never notice in the background how Doctor strange's cape is like "whoa did he really say that"

[@davidharris3728]

I have a hobby of writing, nothing too serious, but I've learned a lot about storytelling and story structure from your channel. If I ever get published, I'll definitely consider your channel as important in getting me there. Thanks.

[@TheEnfadel]

I think this analysis got it exactly right. Great job.

[@geruy]

Do the philosophy of Rurouni Kenshin (Samurai X) Contrast between Kenshin's and Saito's take on morality and ideals could be interesting

[@ftlbattosai9470]

It sure could but im better then Saito.

[@MicahDarkFantasy]

It’s all because of the fact that they spent millions of dollars to take out Henry Cavill’s Mustache and use SO MUCH CGI on both his mouth and his face. For me, it’s because of that one particular thing that just ruined the entire movie for me.

[@lipalpatineli5646]

ik wtf , why couldn’t they just give him a beard and long hair , even without the black suit that would still be ok imo

[@AaronSaysSKOL]

Couldn't he just shave? He's a fucking actor, dammit!!!

[@JustKrin]

Well you still have the shallow plot, uninteresting villain, undeveloped characters, pointless story, etc. But yeah, the mustache was the biggest problem, sure

[@Kelarys]

@@AaronSaysSKOL it's because he's an actor that he couldn't shave, at that point when they wanted to do re-shoots he was contractually obligated to have the mustache for the james bond movie he was filming. the alternative was for that movie to halt production while waiting for him to grow his mustache back, or giving him a fake mustache, both of which would be a stupid thing for another production company to do at no benefit to themselves. Maybe if WB had just straight up bribed the production company they might have done it. I mean, the amount of money it cost to cgi the mustache out was probably a ton, but also probably not as much as that kind of delay in shooting would cost. And it isn't really something you should get upset at a studio for to not want to use a fake prop. That's not even considering the fact that that would require them to amend the contract which has the power to set a precedent that could be catastrophic down the line so no, he couldn't just shave

[@Whofan06]

@@Kelarys I know that explanation makes a lot of sense, but god that situation is ridiculous. All that over facial hair

[@GryphonICD]

Thank you! You quantified perfectly what I'd felt watching it. It's a movie that is going through the motions of a movie and very little else. It's "And then they did this. And then they did this. And then they did this" not "They did this because of this, but because this character is this, then this occurred because he was thinking this" I watched it and felt it was simply there, but I couldn't quite place my finger on why it was so...hollow.Until now watching your vid!

[@YeagerBomb-ww3bn]

That and Infinity War had several films building up to that one as well. Good video.

[@modolief]

Justice League: “Well, I guess that was a movie”. Good summary.

[@IvikNier]

I literally finished today watching whole Marvel universe films (was a run for me) and I can tell. That Justice league actors are freaking dull. It so nice to see Marvel actors doing stuff, joking and "living" their roles. But Justice league actors are so cringy. They are unbelievable.

[@attitudeman5397]

Except Ben & Jeremy's banters I found entertaining.

[@MachineFuckingHate]

Mickey Rourke and Christopher Eccleston sure did live their roles. Lives them so much, they said they'll never work with Disney again. Good times.

[@Kidswithoutborders]

@@MachineFuckingHate Disney does not have a good track record when comes to employees from theme parks to studios.

[@rustoo3823]

Awesome video -- it would be great if Wisecrack follows this up with a sequel that speaks about the different corporate cultures of both the studios behind these franchises and how it affects the movie making :)

[@dylancampbell943]

These videos are great

[@ruk2354]

Could you do a video on Tengan Toppa Gurren Lagann and it's philosophy.

[@jesusstaccato8448]

I know they'll never do it but I fucking SECOND THIS EMOTION SURPASS THE IMPOSSIBLE AND KICK OFF WITH MOMENTUM!

[@Seaneiboy]

You could pick apart every movie and show how it doesn’t follow the Aristotelian guideline. Most movies don’t have every scene being caused by the previous scene. That was really big during the golden age of Hollywood. It’s not like DC is avant- garde, and even if they were, it is still artful and purposeful. The problem is with the viewer, that you have great movies like Infinity War with a deep story that expanded over a decade, and you expect too much out of movies. If Justice League came out in the 90s, everyone would have been blown away. The problem is people’s tastes have been too refined, with too much expectation. It’s not necessarily a bad movie. Kant taught us that you have to view art with a disinterest in mind. If you put too much judgement going into the film, you can’t become a part of it from the right distance. It’s like the problem with the viewers of Star Wars. People expected Luke to be a hero because of their expectations. The fact that he was reluctant was actually a part of the older Star war films, but people expect that he will be a hero since he was from earlier films. It is the expectations of the audience that is becoming a problem, these movies aren’t necessarily bad. Again, if the last Jedi came out in the 80s, people would have been blown away.

[@daneg]

"People expected Luke to be a hero because of their expectations." I should've expected that. ;-)

[@jesusstaccato8448]

"Again, if the last Jedi came out in the 80s, people would have been blown away." No, we wouldn't have. Good storytelling is good storytelling, it's a series of fundamental rules that don't fluctuate based on the decade, rules that were well known long before people like Aristotle started to codify them. In the 80s we had a lot of movies with compelling plots and intricate character progression. No matter the decade, The Last Jedi's sparsity of story and total lack of character development would always stand out as a mark of bad storytelling. "These movies aren't necessarily bad" No, they're not bad... they're awful.

[@apollobukowski4275]

Indeed there are many factors that contribute to how well a film is received. A major problem I perceive is thirsty execs looking for a cash grab and rushing it. Wanting to catch the superhero wave before it fades instead of investing the time and energy. You can tell the MCU has been brought to the screen with love for the characters and respect for their fans. In the case of Justice league, it just seems like it was brought to the screen because of FOMO! In the case of TLJ, what Ryan Johnson communicated to me through the screen and through his personality was that this was meant to serve his ego above the fans and franchise. It backfired because he was out of touch with the hardcore fans, proving all the more that his head was in the clouds. Maybe these 2 movies would have been better received amongst a different landscape...but things have evolved and will continue to. Personally (and I would think this to be true for most real fans), my enjoyment is also tied closely to the level devotion and appreciation toward the subject matter, and if art was actually created, or just entertainment as a means to something else. I hope for the success of all these franchises. Cheers!

[@j.mnemonic9309]

About this thin with "expectations about characters" the word you seem to be deliberately avoiding to use is CONTINUITY. If a character showed a personality trait/moral compass/base opinion on the past the logical thing to expect is to be this personality trait/moral compass/base opinion the default to which they will follow, unless is actually shown onscreen any kind of event between the past and the present that justifies said change + consistent demonstration of this. If the story ignores/omits it until it makes itself necessary to have this stated or simply jump from one state to another as it is convenient to the plot of the moment/as a device to cause a reaction on the public at the moment than is simply bad writing. It's like making a scene where a character goes trough situation that serves as a trigger to a traumatic event only mentioned two minutes earlier, just to have a "overcoming his fear" moment, and simply never mentioning or acknowledging the trauma ever again (aka Barry's "I don't like fighting" in JL).

[@matt_indy]

I agree that Justice League would’ve been received differently in the past, but the Last Jedi has major major issues that are unavoidable, even by time.

[@Tobser1234]

Wisecrack is such a good channel.

[@wirelesmike73]

Great video, as always. But, I can't help but ask... What the hell happened to that show where Jared gets edited into the scenes??? That was really well done and a great concept. Hope to see more of that in 2019. Keep up the good work, fellas.

[@buddykaiser2380]

I think where they messed up the most is by trying to catch up with Avengers instead of just taking it's time and coming out with all the origin stories first. They should have taken their time and put more effort into the individual solo movies so the audience had a chance to actually give half a shit about the characters. Instead they rushed it all out because they were worried about being behind compared to the MCU. It didn't help that Superman's CG mustache was one of the worse things I've ever seen. I think they should have had Cavil grow his hair out a little and his facial hair out to match the mustache length because his hair would have grown while he was in the coffin.

[@TerrellAmari]

I know who dies in End Game Spoiler Alert DC

[@Pikashades]

Marvel is already in a life support machine called MCU which is pair by Disney. DC is still alive, maybe with a broken arm and a leg, but still in a better shape than Marvel would be if MCU didn't exist.

[@jyetaylor6898]

Pikashades dumbest response I’ve seen

[@Pikashades]

@@jyetaylor6898 but it's true. DC has better comic sales, better games(Spiderman on PS4 is just one game), better animated shows and even when Arrowverse is a dead man walking, DC still has better live action tv shows thay are not being cancelled.

[@mriganabh248]

Dceu*

[@Pikashades]

@@mriganabh248 DCEU has just reached to 4 billion dollar benchmark with Aquaman.

[@bcwest619]

"Well, I guess that was a movie." --- Literally the best description of Justice League I have heard anywhere.

[@Xkittyloverr1997]

A cinematic universe is like painting. You start with a goal in mind, and you execute it to the best of your ability. There will be mistakes that happen, and sometimes you have new ideas that you have to stop and think about before trying to add it to the already existing work. Maybe someone else will look at it and see a random stroke somewhere and wonder where it goes or what it will be. But in the end, it turns out beautiful. Maybe not everyone likes it, but it's clearly had a lot of love and effort put into it that can be appreciated

[@aguilacahc000]

WB interfering, Zack not having a good producer to reel him in. Countless issues 😭 #giveDCbacktomarvel

[@aaroncrilly2005]

Why, Marvel makes terrible movies,

[@aaronlevine6498]

@@aaroncrilly2005 Lmao...desperate DC fanboy in action 😂😂😂

[@aaronlevine6498]

Its actually Hack Snyder's fault.

[@Liam-vu7wo]

@@aaronlevine6498 ralphthemoviemaker?

[@manidavis4126]

@@aaroncrilly2005 👶

[@Jfund12]

Joss Whedon was not the person to bring in for this one. The production issues, paired with Joss Whedon being about the farthest thing from Snyder.

[@Noah-Lach]

Jfund12 Agreed. I doubt the original film was some kind of masterpiece but I think they should’ve brought in a director who was willing to respect Snyder’s vision rather than trying to change it outright with a series of obvious reshoots and by totally ruining the colour correction in every scene. A bad film with a clear goal is more interesting than a confused mess with no idea what it wants to be.

[@antona.1327]

The line about "You smell good" is all Joss Whedon. But this guy (or whoever helps him make content for this channel) gushes over Whedon and his films. Don't you find it weird that this channel never made "What Went Wrong" with any of the MCU movies? Like, how can The Dark Knight Rises get an episode in that series, but not Age of Ultron?

[@MrWhiteVzla]

@@antona.1327 if you listen to their podcast, you'll find they are as clever and deep as a puddle. That said, I still watch them because they are fun and entertaining not because they unearth complex philosophical topics

[@Jfund12]

@@MrWhiteVzla I do kind of miss the channel being just "Thug Notes".

[@android19willpwn]

Yeah, I like him as a director a lot but he's not a great choice to finish something started by Snyder. You can't just totally change the tone and direction of a movie halfway through. Even if the new tone and direction are better you still wind up with an inconsistent mess.

[@smeva26]

Lessons From the Screenplay is a terrific channel btw if your into screenplays and how they make such a huge impact on a film

[@jeremypsychrock]

Boom! Nailed it. All of it. ty

[@MrKane-vx6qu]

We know there are other planets with life because Superman is from Krypton, so how did all three mother boxes end up on earth?

[@elin111]

Here's the easier answer: BvS happened.

[@ftlbattosai9470]

BvS was fantastic.

[@elin111]

@@ftlbattosai9470 If you have very low standards and like pretentious shallow 3 hour long borefests, maybe. But that's besides the point, BvS was so bad and hated that WB meddled heavily with JL and butchered it, granted JL likely would've been just as bad but still, JL was collateral damage from BvS's awfulness.

[@ftlbattosai9470]

@@elin111 No it was fantastic because I know what a good movie is and I actually pay attention to them.

[@elin111]

@@ftlbattosai9470 Your idea of good movie is "Boring overbloated unfocused snorefest that desperately tries to be dark and edgy without putting any real effort and completely wastes all its supposed themes"? That must be some really bizzare conception for "good". BvS tries to trick the audience into thinking it has some deep meaning by turning off all the lights and making the characters angsty edgelords, but anyone with standards and common sense can see past that weak smoke screen and see how shallow and pretentious the movie actually is

[@ftlbattosai9470]

@@elin111 You obviously somehow didn't get the movie but just because you cant rap your tiny mind around the story doesn't make it a shit movie.

[@ELANARCO1]

I watched Aquaman a few days ago and I had the same feeling than in every single DC film. Really good video, now I understand why I left the cinema like "it's ok, I guess" feeling.

[@rf7226]

Time to revisit this after the Snyder Cut with “What went right”

[@unknowncat7830]

Infinty war is still better synder cut

[@Anuppuzero]

Its definitely an improvement from bad to good. But still I wouldn't call it great because it was built on the problems of the DCEU

[@Jmotist]

12:31 You missed the golden opportunity to make it say fart. I'm extremely disappointed.

[@denniskohls1917]

Jesus.... You know the writers for justice league got paid a metric crap ton to write their story, yet here's my man Jarred showing how it's supposed to be done for free! Hell they just need to hire Jarred! And I'd definitely rather watch his work.

[@squarepixelscanada2567]

Well it's not that simple.. Good Screenwriting is #hard on the first place

[@denniskohls1917]

@@squarepixelscanada2567 true, just sayin jared's got a knack for it! Or at the least sorting the crap to get to the good

[@hyperbiscuit2284]

Being able to critically analyze screenplays is much different than actually writing them.

[@aboucard93]

I avoided this video for so long cause I was like what went wrong it was made by Warner Bros but this video is probably the best Wisecrack video ever it really takes the cake 👍👍👍

[@davidrichey5319]

"I'm also a big believer in justice" is the most Superman line ever.